On this week’s show we will explore the life of one of the country’s most important and influential Founding Fathers, Alexander Hamilton; his life in New York City; and his influence and those of his contemporaries on the city that would become the financial and commercial capital of the United States.
My guests will be Rediscovering New York regular Joyce Gold of Joyce Gold History Tours; and historian, writer and Curator Steven Jaffe.
Tune in for this fascinating conversation at TalkRadio.nyc or watch the Facebook Livestream by clicking here.
Jeff welcomes Joyce Gold to the show. Joyce is a recognized educator and has published two tour books on New York City. Joyce explains how she became interested in NYC history. Jeff and Joyce begin by talking about what made Alexander Hamilton such a famous New York figure. Jeff then asks about where Hamilton was initially born and how he made it to New York. This leads them to discuss how Hamilton got involved with the military. Jeff then explains Hamilton’s history in law and politics and asks Joyce about his role in opening Columbia University and the Bank of New York.
Jeff begins by asking Joyce about her tour guide business and how she designs them. He then asks about Hamilton’s relationship with New York’s Jewish community. He goes on to ask how Hamilton became the first Secretary of State. Jeff then explains how New York was America’s capital before Washington, D.C, and why it was chosen initially. Joyce and Jeff discuss Hamilton’s New York associates and friends. They move on to talking about Hamilton’s death and his duel with Aaron Bur. They then discuss what Hamilton’s wife Eliza’s life was like after his death. Jeff moves on to talk about Hamilton’s children and their lives. They end by talking about the places where Hamilton lived that can still be visited in New York today.
Jeff introduces his second guest Steven Jaffe who is a historian and author. Steven starts by explaining his New York City upbringing and passion for history. Jeff begins by asking about what New York was like after the Revolutionary War. He follows up by talking about Hamilton’s vision for New York. They talk about how New York was occupied by the British for the majority of the war and the rebuilding process after it ended. Steven talks about how New York became one of the most important cities during early American history.
Jeff begins by asking Steven about the publication of his book Capital of Capital. Jeff then asks about Hamilton’s friend Robert Fulton who was an inventor and artist. Steven then talks about Jeremiah Thompson who was known as the pioneer of the package ship. Steven talks about how Thompson revolutionized transatlantic commerce. Jeff and Steven then talk about DeWitt Clinton, who was a mayor and governor of New York. Stephen goes through how DeWitt helped get New York’s first canal built, which lead to the city prospering.
00:00:31.080 --> 00:00:32.010 Jeff Goodman: Hello everyone.
00:00:33.270 --> 00:00:40.410 Jeff Goodman: Welcome to our listeners in the Big Apple from across the US and around the world. I'm Jeff Goodman and this is rediscovering New York
00:00:41.040 --> 00:00:46.950 Jeff Goodman: Professionally, I'm a real estate broker with brown Harris Stevens and as you my listeners know I love New York
00:00:47.610 --> 00:01:02.550 Jeff Goodman: rediscovering New York as a weekly program about the history texture and vibe of our amazing city and we do it through interviews with a story ends local business owners nonprofit organizations preservationists local musicians and artists and the occasional elected official
00:01:03.660 --> 00:01:11.970 Jeff Goodman: On some shows we focus on an individual New York neighborhood exploring its history and its current energy. What makes that particular New York neighborhood special
00:01:12.870 --> 00:01:20.700 Jeff Goodman: Sometimes like tonight we host shows about an interesting and vital color of the city and its history. That's not focused on one particular neighborhood.
00:01:21.510 --> 00:01:28.830 Jeff Goodman: Prior episodes of covered topics is diverse and illuminating as American presidents who came from lived in or had some relationship with New York
00:01:29.520 --> 00:01:37.380 Jeff Goodman: The history of women activists and women's suffrage. We've been here in the city we focused on African American history in the city, which actually goes back to the time to the Dutch
00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:45.420 Jeff Goodman: We've talked about the history of the city's LGBT community and the gay rights movement, we've explored the history of bicycles and cycling.
00:01:45.900 --> 00:01:56.070 Jeff Goodman: We've delved into the history of punk and Opera. We've looked at our public library systems. This being the city that it is we have not one, not two, but three public library systems.
00:01:56.670 --> 00:02:07.830 Jeff Goodman: We have explored some of our greatest train stations and even some of our beloved bridges after the broadcast each show is available on podcast. You can hear us on Apple Spotify SoundCloud Stitcher and other services.
00:02:08.880 --> 00:02:18.960 Jeff Goodman: Tonight, just one of those special shows we're exploring a facet of the city and that specifically is one of our one of the country's amazing founding fathers Alexander Hamilton.
00:02:19.410 --> 00:02:36.150 Jeff Goodman: And then in the second part of the show, we're going to explore how the life and times of Hamilton and some of his contemporaries helped shape the place that New York is today, and specifically in regards to its commerce and the commercial spirit of this amazing place that we live in.
00:02:37.200 --> 00:02:45.540 Jeff Goodman: Our first guest is a returning guest to rediscovering New York joy scold choice is a recognized expert and educator in New York. History
00:02:46.020 --> 00:02:52.710 Jeff Goodman: And for over 40 years has been guiding New Yorkers and visitors are like to rave reviews through private walking tours, as well as towards open to the public.
00:02:53.550 --> 00:02:58.830 Jeff Goodman: Choices published to guidebooks from windmills to the World Trade Center or walking guide to the history of Lower Manhattan.
00:02:59.310 --> 00:03:07.170 Jeff Goodman: And from chat stream to Bohemia, a walking guide through the history of Greenwich Village. She's contributed to entries to the Encyclopedia of New York City.
00:03:07.830 --> 00:03:22.740 Jeff Goodman: And if all this wasn't enough. The New York Times recently called Joyce and this is a quote the joy and of new york city tour guides the level of recognition and accomplishment any tour guide would relish and welcome back to rediscovering New York Joyce called welcome Joyce.
00:03:23.220 --> 00:03:24.510 joyce gold: Thanks, Jeff. Good to be here.
00:03:25.530 --> 00:03:30.900 Jeff Goodman: I always like to ask all of my guests and I've asked you before, but we do have new listeners on each show you're not originally from the city or you
00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:40.200 joyce gold: Know, I was born in Hazleton, Pennsylvania, less than 50 miles from the birthplace of our possible future president, Mr bite.
00:03:41.220 --> 00:03:47.550 joyce gold: That's where I was. And then we moved to New York. Some years later, I've lived here for a long time.
00:03:48.330 --> 00:03:52.320 Jeff Goodman: Well, if I said from your mouth to God's ears. It might reveal a certain political
00:03:53.790 --> 00:04:04.590 Jeff Goodman: View, which I won't do not now anyway, um, how did you get involved in the work you do specifically bringing new york's history to life for the people who were lucky enough to go on your on your walking tours.
00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:13.920 joyce gold: Thank you. Well, I was a computer analyst and in 1976 I was a Systems Analyst at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.
00:04:14.880 --> 00:04:24.540 joyce gold: I passed interesting streets in lower Manhattan every day coming from the subway to my office and then one day there was a fabulous.
00:04:25.200 --> 00:04:34.170 joyce gold: Old used bookstore on an street called Mendoza. And I picked up 100 year old book about old New York and the streets they talked about
00:04:34.530 --> 00:04:38.460 joyce gold: Where, where the city really began, which happened to be where I was working
00:04:38.880 --> 00:04:47.460 joyce gold: So suddenly, I could look at Broadway and not just see the current buildings. But imagine what it was like before the Native Americans were there.
00:04:47.730 --> 00:04:55.020 joyce gold: What it was like when it was touch what it was like when it was English and all the streets downtown, I could just visualize as I read about
00:04:55.680 --> 00:05:10.980 joyce gold: So, it changed my daily experience and those days a lot of New Yorkers had no idea about city history. So I began to design tours for basically New Yorkers about the city to change their daily lives.
00:05:11.610 --> 00:05:21.120 Jeff Goodman: And we're very lucky to have two guests tonight. Our second guest also is an expert and also published in New York history that Steve Jaffe, but we'll get to him in the second half of the show.
00:05:21.570 --> 00:05:29.160 Jeff Goodman: I'm Joyce before we talk about Hamilton's life in New York. Most everyone has heard of them. Especially because of the musical. I was about to say the new musical but that
00:05:29.790 --> 00:05:40.170 Jeff Goodman: Would be dating myself of musical Hamilton, what did Alexander Hamilton do and aside from him being killed in the duel with Aaron Burr, which we'll talk about later. Why is he so famous.
00:05:40.650 --> 00:05:46.680 joyce gold: Well, for somebody that famous for what he did. It's amazing that most people have heard about I'm primarily for his death.
00:05:47.340 --> 00:06:04.440 joyce gold: But he did a lot as a public figure he did a lot as a private figure he was in the most important a to George Washington all through the American Revolution. He wrote over 300 letters in both English and French to the generals and
00:06:05.460 --> 00:06:17.160 joyce gold: He likes 51 of the 8020 Federalist Papers telling why the Constitution should be approved by the different states and
00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:28.200 joyce gold: He that's what he does in public life Washington realizes he has a brilliant financial minds makes him the first Secretary of Treasury of the United States.
00:06:28.500 --> 00:06:42.960 joyce gold: Which I guess is one of the main reasons he's on his face is on the much circulated $10 bill he founds in public life, the US Coast Guard. He phones, the US Mint. But that wasn't all because then he
00:06:43.620 --> 00:06:52.590 joyce gold: After serving several years as the Treasury Secretary, he becomes a private citizen and is the finest many people felt lawyer in town.
00:06:53.520 --> 00:07:09.690 joyce gold: Did a lot of things as a private citizen as well he founds America's oldest newspaper, The New York Post continuously published since 18 one and what was into many, many things at the start of the topic.
00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:14.280 Jeff Goodman: Like so many people who make New York
00:07:14.460 --> 00:07:21.450 Jeff Goodman: Their home Alexander Hamilton was an immigrant, but he didn't immigrate HERE WHEN WE WERE THE UNITED STATES WHERE WAS Hamilton from originally
00:07:21.900 --> 00:07:39.390 joyce gold: Well, he was born on the island of Nevis which is a part of the Leeward Islands in the western games, he got a job in St. Croix and that's where he left to come to New York City, it was, it wasn't the country, yet it was still colony.
00:07:40.110 --> 00:07:47.640 Jeff Goodman: One interesting thing about Hamilton, which I want to ask you about a little bit later, he and his brother were denied entry into a church school
00:07:48.150 --> 00:08:02.790 Jeff Goodman: Because they were born out of wedlock. So they were partially educated by a Jewish school mistress nevius had a large Jewish population and I'm going to circle back to that in a little bit. When did Hamilton come to New York and what brought him here.
00:08:04.020 --> 00:08:16.350 joyce gold: Well, what brought him here was a support of a number of people in St. Croix and nervous. The high of a hurricane, Hurricane is a wonderful song in the play, Hamilton.
00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:29.940 joyce gold: And what happened was there was a huge hurricane that went on for days and did a lot of damage and Hamilton wrote about it, he was a teenager, but he wrote brilliantly about this and he
00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:44.580 joyce gold: He seemed to have so much skill. People often recognized him as soon as I met him for his skill, but his skill seemed first to have been appreciated because of this writing that gets into the newspaper in St. Croix
00:08:45.180 --> 00:08:59.730 joyce gold: And some people decide, well, here's a guy with talented kid with talent. Let's raise money because he didn't have much money and all send him to America, he'll become a doctor, come back to leave us never he took the money we never went back to us.
00:09:00.660 --> 00:09:03.150 Jeff Goodman: And he went to school in New York at
00:09:03.660 --> 00:09:17.700 joyce gold: He went to King's College, he had wanted to go to Rutgers but Rutgers wouldn't let him have it accelerated course. Oh no, they handle it Burnham is an accelerated course more longer obvious and later.
00:09:18.210 --> 00:09:38.970 joyce gold: But he went to King's College. Now after the American Revolution officially King's College moves to Nova Scotia, but where it had been becomes Columbia University. So people frequently say King's College became Columbia not 100% true but that's one way to
00:09:39.990 --> 00:09:44.610 Jeff Goodman: Not to be confused with the King's College which presently is in New York. It's a Christian University.
00:09:44.730 --> 00:09:46.020 joyce gold: Correct actually very different
00:09:46.830 --> 00:09:51.240 Jeff Goodman: Actually, the famous Dinesh D'Souza was president but we won't go into his history.
00:09:52.410 --> 00:10:04.200 Jeff Goodman: There I go again with another little political life anyway, um, then King's College was closed during the Revolution. When did Hamilton join up with a military unit.
00:10:05.610 --> 00:10:21.630 joyce gold: Well, the British wanted to make the colonists quaking in their boots, so they wouldn't attack and they send a couple of ships into the harbor and way up the Hudson River to show New York citizens, just how defenseless. They were
00:10:21.900 --> 00:10:27.210 Jeff Goodman: You know what this would have been in 1775 after the battles of Concord, and Lexington.
00:10:27.300 --> 00:10:33.570 joyce gold: I believe so. Okay. And when the British were beginning to be on their way to New York from New England.
00:10:34.050 --> 00:10:45.810 joyce gold: And he amasses a group of friends three in particular who go to the battery and start trying to shoot cannon. Wasn't it successful attack because the cannon.
00:10:46.590 --> 00:10:54.120 joyce gold: Some of the people working the cannon were kind of hung over. And one other thing. And having clean the cannon properly and it backfired.
00:10:54.450 --> 00:11:05.220 joyce gold: So it really didn't help. But his spirit was just so strong that as soon as he heard there was a reason to defend Manhattan. He was there with his with his crowd.
00:11:05.850 --> 00:11:09.900 Jeff Goodman: Sounds like a typical New York story as some of them were maybe out in the bars till four in the morning and I
00:11:09.900 --> 00:11:11.460 Jeff Goodman: Couldn't get the cannon working
00:11:11.940 --> 00:11:12.420 Jeff Goodman: There was a
00:11:12.630 --> 00:11:13.710 joyce gold: Very famous
00:11:15.300 --> 00:11:25.740 joyce gold: Area prostitution, where they say there were 500 prostitutes and it's possible that some of the men, we should have been fixing up the cannon were involved in, in that the night before.
00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:36.060 Jeff Goodman: Well, we, um, we could talk a lot about Hamilton's history in the Continental Army, but since this is a show about Hamilton in New York.
00:11:36.150 --> 00:11:37.320 Jeff Goodman: Let's fast forward.
00:11:37.350 --> 00:11:43.080 Jeff Goodman: To after the war, which sort of ended the fighting ended in 1781 but
00:11:44.130 --> 00:11:56.310 Jeff Goodman: It really didn't officially until 1783 Hamilton comes back to New York after the fighting and he gets his law license to practice law in New York and in 1782
00:11:57.210 --> 00:12:06.630 Jeff Goodman: He was appointed to the American Congress at the time it was called the Congress of the Confederation. These were when we did not was the United States of America, but we didn't have the system of government that we have now.
00:12:07.110 --> 00:12:13.110 Jeff Goodman: And he also served as a member of the Assembly from New York County, which I didn't know that he was actually in the state legislature.
00:12:14.340 --> 00:12:25.500 Jeff Goodman: He came back to New York City in 1783 when the British evacuated the city Treaty of Paris was signed in 1783 what role did Hamilton play and the things I want to ask you about
00:12:26.220 --> 00:12:36.090 Jeff Goodman: New York after he returned. What role did he play in the opening of the college that would be sort of newly born that came out of King's College and that became Columbia.
00:12:37.170 --> 00:12:48.570 joyce gold: Oh, he was on the board of the college. He was a trusting of Columbia, they end up giving you an honorary Masters of Arts degree. And so he had a hand in it.
00:12:50.670 --> 00:12:54.090 Jeff Goodman: And let's talk about the bank that Hamilton founded the Bank of New York.
00:12:55.140 --> 00:13:12.660 Jeff Goodman: Why is it that he that someone who was in the military, and who was a lawyer and rally the troops shoot the cannon. What was behind him. His hand in helping to found what became the first actually first commercial bank in the United States.
00:13:13.530 --> 00:13:24.960 joyce gold: Well, you know, Hamilton had come from an area in the West Indies, that was a real center point for trade for import for export, he was involved with Mr cougars.
00:13:26.070 --> 00:13:37.440 joyce gold: Finances, so we have a very good sense of what importance finance and there was quite a chaotic situation in New York at the time, there were many different foreign currencies.
00:13:38.400 --> 00:13:43.260 joyce gold: In different states have different amounts that a currency was worth
00:13:43.680 --> 00:14:00.120 joyce gold: And he hoped that the Bank of New York would counter chaos know it opened in 1784 but he also helped start the Bank of the United States in 1791 because again, he wanted to bring order into the American currency.
00:14:00.870 --> 00:14:12.150 joyce gold: So he he issued notes and listed current exchange rates and had a sense of the outcome. They wanted more than other people seem to have
00:14:13.110 --> 00:14:20.010 Jeff Goodman: Choice was Hamilton involved at all with the bank's management or its business operations after he helped to found it.
00:14:20.580 --> 00:14:28.170 joyce gold: Well, he was involved in many, many things that I don't think he was primarily involved in that I could be wrong about that though. Oh, sure.
00:14:28.560 --> 00:14:40.380 Jeff Goodman: Okay well we're gonna take a short break and when we come back we're going to continue our conversation with Joyce cold of Jewish called history tours exploring the life of Alexander Hamilton, specifically in New York City will be back in a moment.
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:58.620 Jeff Goodman: Hello everyone, we're back to rediscovering New York and our episode about Alexander Hamilton in New York, as well as some of his contemporaries who contributed and laid the foundation for the kind of city that we have today.
00:16:59.670 --> 00:17:04.980 Jeff Goodman: Joyce want to ask you about your business Joyce called history tours. You are fine tour guide.
00:17:06.270 --> 00:17:15.180 Jeff Goodman: And of course, like most people in your business. You went on hiatus in the middle of the covered crisis in New York. But now you're back to giving private tours, aren't you
00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:22.260 joyce gold: Yes, I've just done a couple of private tours. This week, and I really like to do them because I can focus
00:17:22.740 --> 00:17:33.210 joyce gold: On all custom design, then I can focus on what is interesting to the people who hire me and I do a lot of tourists things off planning a lot of Tours these days that are
00:17:33.750 --> 00:17:38.580 joyce gold: Have any of the four dozen or so neighborhoods that I specialize in
00:17:39.120 --> 00:17:46.290 joyce gold: And people come with their families. They come with their friends last Sunday. If somebody had an anniversary. And that was the gift.
00:17:46.650 --> 00:17:53.520 joyce gold: He gave his wife, you know, people are interested in giving experiences. These days, even more than items often
00:17:54.270 --> 00:17:59.940 joyce gold: And the other one. People were in for a wedding and they will come from different parts of the country.
00:18:00.360 --> 00:18:12.930 joyce gold: So private tours my website has lots of choices and then hopefully in the spring. I'll start giving my public tours, where people can just come and show up on a tour that's pre scheduled
00:18:13.350 --> 00:18:22.380 joyce gold: But it's very interesting. And I've been designing new tours and doing things having to do with New York history that aren't about touring to
00:18:23.040 --> 00:18:39.390 Jeff Goodman: Well I, I love your tours. I've been on dozens of them. And I also can speak firsthand. I had a private tour of right when you put together your the history of when Jewish people first came to New York. I remember that very. Finally, it was wonderful, having you all to myself.
00:18:39.750 --> 00:18:46.530 Jeff Goodman: Or it's a great. It's a great treat everybody enjoys you also have an Instagram account which is Joyce called history tours.
00:18:46.860 --> 00:18:47.400 joyce gold: Exactly.
00:18:47.490 --> 00:18:51.870 Jeff Goodman: And your website where people can find out about your tours private and otherwise are is
00:18:51.930 --> 00:19:03.900 joyce gold: On my website. It's the choice gold history towards.com but if people send me their email address, I would be glad to let them know when my public towards begin
00:19:06.060 --> 00:19:07.470 Jeff Goodman: Hamilton in New York.
00:19:10.380 --> 00:19:14.460 Jeff Goodman: Hamilton's Life was so impacted by Jewish people in the place where he grew up.
00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:31.200 Jeff Goodman: I'm wondering how that may have impacted his relationship with Jewish people in the Jewish community in New York Jewish people have been living here in New York first New Amsterdam since 1652 or 1653. Do we know anything about Hamilton's relationship with with New York's Jewish community.
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:41.640 joyce gold: Well, according to Ron Chernow who of course is the source or old manual and other people and most things having to do with Hamilton.
00:19:42.630 --> 00:19:53.700 joyce gold: Hamilton had a lifelong reverence for Jewish people and he said the progress of the Jews is the effect of some great providential plan.
00:19:54.390 --> 00:20:05.040 joyce gold: So he was taught by a Jewish woman in neighbors neighbors one quarter of the population of neighbors was Jewish. At the time, Hamilton live there.
00:20:05.670 --> 00:20:15.360 joyce gold: And he learned Hebrew in the in the Jewish school and the school was in a synagogue and you know they say that the reason he went to that.
00:20:15.840 --> 00:20:34.230 joyce gold: Was because the other schools wouldn't admit him because his parents were not married to one another. His mother's husband first time well only husband really would not refuse to give her a divorce, so that when she married Hamilton when she was involved with Hamilton, sorry.
00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:36.480 joyce gold: They were not married.
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:40.020 Jeff Goodman: Oh, I didn't know that Hamilton. Learn to Hebrew. That's that.
00:20:40.140 --> 00:20:41.190 Jeff Goodman: That's really fascinating.
00:20:42.270 --> 00:20:47.490 Jeff Goodman: Hamilton was the United States for a Secretary of the Treasury. How did he get that position.
00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:52.590 joyce gold: Well, there were only three secretaries that George Washington decided on.
00:20:53.790 --> 00:21:09.630 joyce gold: Jefferson what state Knox was war and Hamilton, which are much, much larger staffs words treasury and George Washington appointed all three. He could see that Hamilton had a brilliant financial mind. And that's why I gave him that position.
00:21:10.860 --> 00:21:22.350 Jeff Goodman: Well, speaking of the first SEAT OF US government. Let's go back to Hamilton in New York, the new capital of the United States after the Constitution was signed was New York City. Why, New York.
00:21:23.040 --> 00:21:32.490 joyce gold: Well, there were a few reasons. For one thing, it was sort of midway between the New England got like UPS stakes and the south so geographically. That was a good reason.
00:21:32.790 --> 00:21:44.460 joyce gold: It had an extremely active port basically at the foot of Wall Street. And so the commerce that flowed into it was, was why also Washington DC was not ready and
00:21:45.120 --> 00:21:50.580 Jeff Goodman: All the capital was moved pretty quickly after 1789 to Philadelphia.
00:21:51.390 --> 00:22:03.330 Jeff Goodman: Before it was moved to the District of Columbia, which is what it was called originally wasn't, it was only called Washington after Washington died in 1799 and Adams and the cabinet decided that they would move to rename it Washington DC.
00:22:04.710 --> 00:22:14.580 Jeff Goodman: Many people know about the idea of establishing and building a new capital for the US right in the middle of the northern and southern states, which is how they came up with with where Washington is now.
00:22:15.450 --> 00:22:25.470 Jeff Goodman: But why Philadelphia. Why did Hamilton and those who supported him agreed to have the capital moved out of New York before the government move to the district for what would be 10 years
00:22:26.310 --> 00:22:35.250 joyce gold: Well, first of all, Philadelphia, had been the First Continental Congress met their Independence Hall was being used by the Pennsylvania.
00:22:35.610 --> 00:22:54.870 joyce gold: General Assembly before the revolution. So the First Continental Congress met there as well, and I believe it was the most populated city and colonial times, it wasn't until 1820 that Manhattan, which was all there was to New York City at the time surpassed Philadelphia in population.
00:22:55.140 --> 00:22:55.440 Jeff Goodman: And
00:22:55.680 --> 00:23:11.820 joyce gold: It was also the idea was to get it out of New York and Philadelphia seen a logical step also Robert Morris pushed for it to be in Philadelphia. So sort of on its way. It was there for 10 years and it was on its way to the District of Columbia.
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:27.840 Jeff Goodman: Well, many of us can identify who Hamilton's contemporaries were in the US government certainly Washington Adams, Jefferson, even though they didn't get along so well who who were Hamilton's associates who were who were in New Yorkers at the time.
00:23:28.320 --> 00:23:43.380 joyce gold: When there were three in particular Lafayette, who had already as a teenager of 19 like a first comes to America had come into his title of my key there was Hercules Mulligan, a very colorful character.
00:23:43.770 --> 00:23:49.110 Jeff Goodman: And there was a man sounds at Hercules mala getting that alone that he probably would have been if you'd had a
00:23:49.470 --> 00:23:51.720 joyce gold: straighter name, but it was quite a wonderful name.
00:23:52.860 --> 00:24:01.020 joyce gold: You also so Mulligan served as a spy during the British occupation during the war because he was a very high and Taylor.
00:24:01.350 --> 00:24:07.830 joyce gold: And a lot of his clients were officers of the British and he would get all kinds of information from them that he would pass along
00:24:08.280 --> 00:24:22.710 joyce gold: To the, to the American command and the third guy that they all drink together and work together was a man named Warren Warren says father was the head that had been the head of the Continental Congress
00:24:23.700 --> 00:24:33.570 joyce gold: Lauren's very intent on us freeing the slaves in the southern United States and does not survive the end of the revolution.
00:24:35.550 --> 00:24:45.330 Jeff Goodman: Well, that takes us to speaking of the ends of something that takes us to the end of Hamilton's life you know what what many what most people know about Hamilton is that he was killed in a dual
00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:53.280 Jeff Goodman: Thankfully, not I wish there was there was that have a different state and not not in New York. Um, what was so striking about Hamilton's death.
00:24:55.080 --> 00:24:58.710 joyce gold: A few things. First of all, Hamilton didn't believe in a dual
00:24:59.730 --> 00:25:02.250 joyce gold: dual roles were sort of like a fast.
00:25:03.450 --> 00:25:12.750 joyce gold: Fast 10 steps to a duel, which I keep having to quote Lynn manuals Hamilton, because he goes into the 10 steps of a dual
00:25:13.170 --> 00:25:19.200 joyce gold: Hamilton didn't believe in dueling but he also felt that you have to stand up for your honor. So that was one strange thing.
00:25:19.590 --> 00:25:26.700 joyce gold: Another strange thing was that he amber had long been at odds with each other because they had very different foods of the world.
00:25:27.090 --> 00:25:36.330 joyce gold: And their position in it and it just rocks. Finally, in the dual also, it was a New Jersey and it was because they often said that
00:25:36.780 --> 00:25:52.530 joyce gold: You know, it was illegal in New Jersey to but New Jersey. Wasn't that strict about prosecuting for things the way they were in New York. Another thing I find very strange is for a month. Hamilton and others were talking about it, debating it but nobody told Hamilton, his wife.
00:25:53.670 --> 00:25:58.320 joyce gold: And she lives 47 years after he was dead without him. Um,
00:25:59.010 --> 00:26:05.700 Jeff Goodman: Let's talk about Eliza Hamilton, um, what was her life like after Hamilton was killed.
00:26:06.090 --> 00:26:19.500 joyce gold: Well, she always played down herself and played up the great man. But, uh, refugees from the Napoleonic Wars had come to New York in the early 1800s, and she felt so strongly
00:26:19.860 --> 00:26:31.020 joyce gold: About helping the women particularly and the children that this becomes her life's work for over 25 years. She is the Director of New York's first
00:26:31.950 --> 00:26:43.440 joyce gold: First Orphan Asylum. And so that's one thing she does. At the age of 91 she moves from New York to Washington DC to be with her recently divorced daughter.
00:26:43.860 --> 00:26:58.530 joyce gold: One of the children that she born and becomes friendly with Abraham Lincoln. So she lives till 97 she lived longer after he died. Then he lived so quite amazing woman well
00:26:59.250 --> 00:27:03.750 Jeff Goodman: Well, how much Hamilton had a good number of children. I'm going to talk about two of his sons one
00:27:04.830 --> 00:27:07.980 Jeff Goodman: How and why was one of Hamilton sons killed
00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:24.810 joyce gold: Well Hamilton's oldest son was Philip, Philip had just graduated from Columbia College and here is an opponent from the other party against his father and George EAGER TO TALK, TALK against Alexander Hamilton. Well, the router.
00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:39.030 joyce gold: Son still a challenge is equal to a dual he asked his father for advice as father said, well, it's much more honorable not to shoot on the first go round and Philip is mortally wounded.
00:27:39.540 --> 00:27:48.030 joyce gold: So in 1801 that's when Hamilton first publishers New York Post its first big story was the death of Philip Hamilton.
00:27:48.660 --> 00:27:51.870 Jeff Goodman: And of course, Hamilton that his in the same fashion that his son did
00:27:52.140 --> 00:27:54.060 joyce gold: On the same rounds with the same customer
00:27:54.540 --> 00:28:02.370 Jeff Goodman: Wow, wow, which used to be on display at the little Museum at the Bank of New York at 44 Broadway.
00:28:03.120 --> 00:28:10.380 Jeff Goodman: I don't know where it is now. Now that the building has been using for other purposes and a little bit of historical irony on one of Hamilton's other children.
00:28:10.860 --> 00:28:21.630 Jeff Goodman: Represented the wife of Aaron Berger divorce case actually a case that also was monumental and that established a legal precedent in New York State. That was Betsy janell
00:28:23.430 --> 00:28:24.780 joyce gold: Alexander Hamilton, Jr.
00:28:26.130 --> 00:28:36.840 Jeff Goodman: Okay, okay, well choice. We haven't got a minute left. I want to ask you, Are there places in New York where Hamilton lived that we can still see today because
00:28:39.150 --> 00:28:49.230 joyce gold: He looked at different sites, a Wall Street worked on Wall Street, but in 1802 two years before he was to die, he analyzed. After the death of their son.
00:28:49.920 --> 00:29:00.120 joyce gold: Got a little place up on what becomes 140 Third Street in Harlem. The building has since been moved twice, but it's a fabulous place to visit.
00:29:00.690 --> 00:29:12.000 joyce gold: I was saying the other day and I'm not sure they've reopened it with the epidemic or pandemic going on but it's 740 First Street just off content Avenue. The National Monument.
00:29:12.810 --> 00:29:17.580 Jeff Goodman: And Hamilton grades is a great place to see. You can see it in Hamilton. Hamilton heights on 100 41st Street.
00:29:17.970 --> 00:29:23.790 joyce gold: And you can see his grave on Wall Street very appropriately enough in Trinity Church garden. Yes.
00:29:24.420 --> 00:29:32.520 Jeff Goodman: Well, Joyce. Thank you so much for being such a fabulous guests on the first part of the special program about Hamilton and some of his contemporaries.
00:29:32.790 --> 00:29:39.780 Jeff Goodman: And how they helped me New York City that it is today. My first guest on this show has been Joyce gold of Joyce called history tours.
00:29:40.170 --> 00:29:47.370 Jeff Goodman: You can now take advantage of Joyce's private tour schedule that choice called history tours com and also find her on Instagram.
00:29:47.820 --> 00:29:59.670 Jeff Goodman: We'll be back after a short break and when we return, we will speak with our second guest about some of the folks who came right after Hamilton and the impact they made on New York City will be back in a moment.
00:32:13.290 --> 00:32:21.150 Jeff Goodman: We're back and you're back support for rediscovering New York comes from our sponsors Christopher pappas mortgage specialist to TD Bank.
00:32:21.600 --> 00:32:31.410 Jeff Goodman: To find out how Chris can help you with all your residential home mortgage needs and tailoring work just that's right for you. Please call Chris at 203-512-3918
00:32:32.280 --> 00:32:44.340 Jeff Goodman: And support also comes from the Law Offices of Thomas the ACA focusing on wills estate planning probate and inheritance litigation Tom and his staff can be reached at 212-495-0317
00:32:45.330 --> 00:32:51.150 Jeff Goodman: Our program is about New York. It's neighborhoods its history and Maria textures of what makes New York, New York.
00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:59.880 Jeff Goodman: There's another great show on the air about New York and specifically about the business of real estate. Good morning, New York with Vince Rocco my friend and colleague brown Harris.
00:33:00.540 --> 00:33:05.130 Jeff Goodman: Vince's show can be heard on podcast. That's good morning. New York with Vince Rocco.
00:33:05.850 --> 00:33:12.240 Jeff Goodman: You can like the show on Facebook and you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter my handle their handles there Jeff Goodman NYC.
00:33:12.870 --> 00:33:18.360 Jeff Goodman: If you have comments or questions or if you'd like to get on our mailing list, please email me, Jeff at rediscovering New York but NYC.
00:33:19.080 --> 00:33:23.940 Jeff Goodman: One of the note before we get to our second guest, even though rediscovering New York is not a show about real estate.
00:33:24.360 --> 00:33:30.420 Jeff Goodman: When I'm not on the air. I am a real estate agent now are amazing city where I help my clients buy, sell lease and rental property.
00:33:31.050 --> 00:33:47.040 Jeff Goodman: If you or someone you care about is considering a move into out of within New York. I would love to help you with all those real estate needs. You can reach me and my team at 646-306-4761 our second guest is Stephen Jaffe
00:33:48.210 --> 00:33:55.860 Jeff Goodman: Stephen Jaffe as a historian writer and curator who has worked for the museum in the city of New York, the New York Historical Society, the South Street, Seaport Museum
00:33:56.220 --> 00:34:09.660 Jeff Goodman: And other institutions over 27 year career in public history and native New Yorker. He was educated in New York City public schools, Princeton University and Harvard where he obtained his PhD. Sorry. He earned his PhD in 1989
00:34:10.620 --> 00:34:18.900 Jeff Goodman: At the museum in the city of New York. Steve was co curator of the award winning permanent exhibition, New York, at its core, it opened in 2016 and is still ongoing.
00:34:19.560 --> 00:34:33.090 Jeff Goodman: He was the inaugural curator of activist, New York, which is also an ongoing exhibition and also curator of America's mayor. We're not talking about Rudy Giuliani that's john V Lindsay reinvention of New York. That's in 2010 I remember mere Lindsay
00:34:33.660 --> 00:34:40.020 Jeff Goodman: And also city of workers city of struggle how labor movements changed, New York. That was in 2019
00:34:41.070 --> 00:34:50.460 Jeff Goodman: Stevens, the author and co author of several books, including New York at war for centuries of combat fear and intriguing Gotham is published by Basic Books in 2012
00:34:51.000 --> 00:35:02.310 Jeff Goodman: And activists, New York, the history of people protest and politics that was published in 2018 Steve lives in Maplewood New Jersey with his wife and two sons, Steve, a hearty welcome to rediscovering New York
00:35:02.790 --> 00:35:05.100 Steven Jaffe: Thank you, Jeff. I'm very pleased to be here.
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.310 Jeff Goodman: You're originally from New York. What are you wearing the city. Did you grow up.
00:35:08.970 --> 00:35:11.010 Steven Jaffe: Well, I grew up in the West Village.
00:35:12.180 --> 00:35:19.740 Steven Jaffe: And during the 60s and 70s, which needless to say, we're a very interesting time to be in New York.
00:35:20.820 --> 00:35:26.640 Steven Jaffe: Anywhere in New York, certainly very interesting to be growing up in in the West Village.
00:35:27.660 --> 00:35:37.410 Steven Jaffe: And so I really consider myself, as it were, a Sabra of Greenwich Village, you know, Joyce will will appreciate that. I'm, I'm sure.
00:35:38.190 --> 00:35:54.060 Steven Jaffe: Also, I can say Joyce was mentioning Mendoza's bookstore. I'm also one of the folks who was privileged to be at the right place the right time to enjoy that that place, which is one of these, one of those remarkable one of a kind. New York City places.
00:35:54.720 --> 00:35:59.160 Jeff Goodman: I never got to Mendoza's but I do remember very fondly dabbler in Pine down
00:35:59.790 --> 00:36:15.000 Jeff Goodman: Avenue between 12th and 13th. I have some books in my library that I got for a song. Back in the 80s. It was a great place. I remember merged Albert very well. He was, yeah. Great, great book seller when you develop your love and passion for history, Steve.
00:36:15.720 --> 00:36:16.050 He
00:36:17.220 --> 00:36:29.160 Steven Jaffe: Really the honest answer is as far back as I can remember, which must be around 1964 or so. And that really is a function, you know, of
00:36:30.270 --> 00:36:37.470 Steven Jaffe: Being a New Yorker of growing up in the city. My, my parents were avid museum goers and
00:36:38.010 --> 00:36:45.000 Steven Jaffe: So they would take me not only to the mat and the Museum of Natural History and so on. The other great institutions art and science institutions.
00:36:45.330 --> 00:36:57.510 Steven Jaffe: But they would take me to places like museum and the city of New York and the New York Historical Society and the South Street, Seaport Museum, which was just a fledgling institution. Back in the late 60s.
00:36:58.710 --> 00:36:59.490 Steven Jaffe: And
00:37:00.900 --> 00:37:05.850 Steven Jaffe: So, so, and my father was a grip. Both my parents really my father was the son of immigrants.
00:37:06.120 --> 00:37:19.650 Steven Jaffe: And was very, very interested in in history. Generally, but very interested in history of the city. So, kind of, I kind of by osmosis or ingestion or something. It just kind of flowed into me at a very, very
00:37:20.010 --> 00:37:29.040 Steven Jaffe: Early age as a passion, you know, and so, so, but I do think that was about being in New York and this amazing place with this amazing history.
00:37:29.820 --> 00:37:45.300 Jeff Goodman: You're one of the things that really got me hooked on the history of the city that I'm from New York is like you, you know, my mother took us to the South Street, Seaport Museum back in the early 70s when you know there was nothing there except for the museum and all the fish businesses.
00:37:45.600 --> 00:37:46.800 Jeff Goodman: And of course that is
00:37:47.640 --> 00:37:50.760 Jeff Goodman: That just see this late 18th century. So
00:37:52.050 --> 00:37:59.760 Jeff Goodman: It was such. It was such a wonderful experience. And that brings us to New York at the time of the revolution. And right after it.
00:38:01.260 --> 00:38:06.030 Jeff Goodman: New York was not the country's leading city. After the Revolutionary War. But within a few years.
00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:18.390 Jeff Goodman: It was becoming the leading city in the United States in terms of commerce finance manufacturing population and eventually even culture, what was New York like right after the Revolutionary War.
00:38:19.680 --> 00:38:32.280 Steven Jaffe: Yeah. Well, first, first off I Joyce alluded to this earlier, the fact that, you know, we think of New York as being the city for various reasons. And of course it's it is
00:38:32.700 --> 00:38:46.050 Steven Jaffe: Really since as joy, said the 1810s or 1820s, it has been the largest, most populous city in the Americas. But originally, at the time of the revolution.
00:38:46.560 --> 00:38:55.140 Steven Jaffe: It is Philadelphia Philadelphia is larger its New York's really the second city and and Boston is sort of a distant and declining third
00:38:55.470 --> 00:39:06.150 Steven Jaffe: In terms of just sheer numbers of people, Philadelphia, at the time of their evolution is something like 25 30,000 people. That's a big city for America. That's the biggest city in America at the time.
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:27.450 Steven Jaffe: New York is 2025 26,000. But what happens is during the revolution during the the long British occupation that that set in after the young Alexander Hamilton and his, his you know pals who are trying to sober up and shoot cannon at the British
00:39:28.470 --> 00:39:36.930 Steven Jaffe: You know, the British take New York after defeating George Washington at the disastrous Battle of Long Island or otherwise known as the Battle of Brooklyn.
00:39:37.410 --> 00:39:53.760 Steven Jaffe: And for seven years. New York is an occupied city. It's the British headquarters for fighting the revolution and but to make a long story short, by the end of the revolution when when the United States wins the war.
00:39:55.980 --> 00:40:07.020 Steven Jaffe: City's been reduced to around half of its original population before the wards at 12,000 people at most. It is a place be set by
00:40:07.890 --> 00:40:20.640 Steven Jaffe: By terrible fires that burn to literally hundreds of buildings during the war, the British have left. They've taken most of the hard currency, the coin gold and silver coins within at the end of the revolution.
00:40:21.510 --> 00:40:29.250 Steven Jaffe: And so, economically and demographically in terms of population. The city is kind of a, sorry.
00:40:30.720 --> 00:40:41.790 Steven Jaffe: shadow of its former self. And so the challenge facing New Yorkers at the end of the American Revolution and those New Yorkers, of course, include Alexander Hamilton.
00:40:42.300 --> 00:40:55.350 Steven Jaffe: And numerous other luminaries of the day is how do you jumpstart this place back to be not only a lot at once was. But because already was the second city, you know, before the revolution.
00:40:55.800 --> 00:41:13.050 Steven Jaffe: But how do you sort of clinch the its, its future as a place which hopefully I'm in the eyes of New Yorkers will surpass Philadelphia, you know, and be kind of the dynamo these, the, the, the capital of everything except
00:41:13.650 --> 00:41:27.000 Steven Jaffe: Politics in the sense that, you know, you think about Paris and London and the other great cities of the world right of that era, they are not only the largest and most commercial cities are also the capital cities.
00:41:27.510 --> 00:41:39.270 Steven Jaffe: And what happens in New York in this period after the revolution is New York does lose the, the role of US capital to Philadelphia and then Washington DC as
00:41:39.660 --> 00:41:50.700 Steven Jaffe: You were discussing earlier but it remains the it becomes really the great city in every other possible way commercially industrially financially culturally intellectually
00:41:51.180 --> 00:42:05.040 Steven Jaffe: And that, in large part, has to do with the kind of leverage that Alexander Hamilton and his contemporaries bring to bear in New York in the 1780s, and 1790s immediately following the war.
00:42:05.460 --> 00:42:20.730 Jeff Goodman: So would you say that Hamilton just didn't have. He was not just an incredible visionary for the United States, but he also had a vision for New York that was extra or in addition to the vision that he had for the future of the us as a country.
00:42:21.270 --> 00:42:32.100 Steven Jaffe: I think that's true in the sense that he if you know if you think about you think about our founding fathers, you think about Washington and Jefferson and James Madison and the list goes on.
00:42:32.610 --> 00:42:44.970 Steven Jaffe: Who are those guys. They're all form basically gentlemen farmers, which means they're just they're just quote unquote gentlemen slave owners. They're plantation owners, which means that their, their
00:42:45.690 --> 00:43:02.460 Steven Jaffe: Their whole point of view is agricultural yes there there in commerce to but they're fair men of the countryside, really, the two major founding fathers who are city. People are Benjamin Franklin and Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton.
00:43:03.720 --> 00:43:12.750 Steven Jaffe: Does come from the Caribbean, which very much is LinkedIn to New York commercially as Joyce was was was mentioning earlier in the late colonial period.
00:43:14.310 --> 00:43:25.710 Steven Jaffe: Hamilton is a man of commerce. He's a brilliant. He has a brilliant financial mind he understands how credit works he understands the role that a bank can play
00:43:26.580 --> 00:43:37.950 Steven Jaffe: And I think there's a way in which New York in micro as you're suggesting you know New York is in microcosm what health, in a sense, sees
00:43:38.490 --> 00:43:48.330 Steven Jaffe: The entire company country young United States is becoming. It's a place where. Yeah, sure. Agriculture is important and agricultural was important in New York City. I mean, we're
00:43:48.600 --> 00:43:55.230 Steven Jaffe: The merchants in New York City in the shippers are relying heavily on agricultural produce to make to make their fortunes.
00:43:55.560 --> 00:44:03.840 Steven Jaffe: But he sees the country at the future, the country has to also be commercial and financial and industrial
00:44:04.470 --> 00:44:15.690 Steven Jaffe: And New York is becoming all of those things, partly due to Hamilton himself and the years immediately following the revolution. So there is there is a linkage between the grand vision.
00:44:16.110 --> 00:44:24.960 Steven Jaffe: Of, you know, a strong set United States under the federal government and New York City is kind of the, the signature city of
00:44:25.410 --> 00:44:26.970 Jeff Goodman: This republic. Wow.
00:44:28.110 --> 00:44:36.240 Jeff Goodman: Well, we're going to take a short break and when we come back we're going to continue our conversation with Steve Jaffe, he's a historian writer and Curator
00:44:36.540 --> 00:44:45.270 Jeff Goodman: And we're gonna on the second part of this interview, we're going to focus on some of Hamilton contemporaries, and those who came in New York, right after him. We'll be back in a moment.
00:46:35.670 --> 00:46:51.330 Jeff Goodman: We're back to this special episode about Alexander Hamilton and some of his contemporaries, who helped make New York, the great place. We know and cherish. Today our guest is our second guest on the show is Steve Jaffe Steve is a historian writer and Curator
00:46:52.440 --> 00:47:02.970 Jeff Goodman: Steve, I mentioned at the beginning that you you published a couple of books, New York at war and activists, New York, but you also published a book called capital of capital, which is right on to and you want to talk about that, that book.
00:47:03.510 --> 00:47:24.030 Steven Jaffe: Or it's certainly a book that's relevant to our topic tonight and I I co authored it with historian Jessica Lawton. It was a book that accompanied another exhibition at the Museum of the City. You are called capital, capital, which really tried to trace the history of banking in New York.
00:47:25.380 --> 00:47:33.540 Steven Jaffe: And get, you know, for those interested. I think it's a, it's a, you know, if you're interested in seeing the book.
00:47:34.500 --> 00:47:45.210 Steven Jaffe: It is visually very, very, I wouldn't say lavish but it's called. It's a colorful book. It's not just the book of words and it really I think illustrates
00:47:45.600 --> 00:47:53.580 Steven Jaffe: Rather vividly the role, New York City has played in banking and capitalism over the centuries, so it was actually very challenging.
00:47:54.090 --> 00:48:10.800 Steven Jaffe: Project for me because it personally because I'm not per se and economic historian, so I had a lot of learning or relearning to do, but it really did prove to me in the writing of it that that you know the people of this generation that we're talking about, Hamilton.
00:48:11.850 --> 00:48:24.480 Steven Jaffe: And and others really set New York on the path that it continues to to follow today is one of the world's great great cities of Carson and finance.
00:48:25.530 --> 00:48:34.200 Jeff Goodman: And speaking of others. Let's talk about some of Hamilton's both contemporaries, and people, of course, who were around after Hamilton was no longer on the planet.
00:48:36.150 --> 00:48:40.140 Jeff Goodman: Robert Fulton, we all know him as the father of the steamboat was he from New York originally
00:48:40.860 --> 00:48:59.850 Steven Jaffe: He was not he was from rural Pennsylvania. But he was a guy who ends up gravitating towards cities in his lifetime goes to Philadelphia is is a is an accomplished. One thing we get back. We often forget about him is that he was an accomplished artist, a painter.
00:49:01.050 --> 00:49:16.770 Steven Jaffe: But he also was something of a renaissance man, you know, a little bit of an American Leonardo da Vinci, I suppose in that he also was fascinated by engineering and mechanics and issues of propulsion.
00:49:17.190 --> 00:49:28.080 Steven Jaffe: And also actually issues of mass destruction and in the sense that he saw himself for a while, primarily as a designer and venture of weapons systems.
00:49:28.950 --> 00:49:40.170 Steven Jaffe: Including exploding mines that could be floated and, you know, blow up warships and he's also one of the pioneers of the submarine actually as a military
00:49:40.980 --> 00:49:50.580 Steven Jaffe: Weapon which he tried to sell both to the British and then to Napoleon, so he's a man of London and Paris before he comes to New York rather late in his life and career.
00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:59.700 Steven Jaffe: But he does come to New York continues to work on tinker with various military defensive systems.
00:50:00.870 --> 00:50:09.690 Steven Jaffe: Partly to defend a New York against possible English or French invasion during that period before and during the war of 1812
00:50:10.080 --> 00:50:28.020 Steven Jaffe: So, um, but he is another one of these visionaries because he does. He is the guy who finally figures out how to bring everything together to create a viable steam engine that can propel a waterborne vessel, and that's a great claim to fame, of course.
00:50:28.680 --> 00:50:32.910 Jeff Goodman: And like, Hamilton. He's also I believe he's also buried in Trinity Church.
00:50:32.910 --> 00:50:35.100 Steven Jaffe: Yard. I've seen his. Yes. Yes, I believe.
00:50:35.430 --> 00:50:37.650 Jeff Goodman: Yes, I've seen his grave, along with a lot of other people there.
00:50:38.490 --> 00:50:40.380 Jeff Goodman: Who was Jeremiah Thompson, Steve.
00:50:41.700 --> 00:50:56.910 Steven Jaffe: Yeah. Jeremiah Thompson is is is really one of the unsung you know figures of this period, but quite important, I would argue, other stories. I think would argue, as well. Jeremiah Thompson is an English Quaker he's from Yorkshire.
00:50:57.930 --> 00:51:04.380 Steven Jaffe: In Northern England, and he emigrated to New York City sets up in business here.
00:51:05.580 --> 00:51:17.580 Steven Jaffe: After the revolution and his great contribution is along with others, but he's the guy whose name kind of has settled on this. He's really the the pioneer of
00:51:18.030 --> 00:51:32.280 Steven Jaffe: The so called packet ship and the package ship line in 1818 Thompson really sets up a network with other Quaker merchants in Liverpool, England.
00:51:32.850 --> 00:51:44.190 Steven Jaffe: And what they do is they create this sailing ship line. The blackball line as it's named which schedules vessels to leave from
00:51:44.700 --> 00:51:52.230 Steven Jaffe: From New York from the East River docs to go on such and such a date every month and such and such a date every month.
00:51:52.560 --> 00:51:59.340 Steven Jaffe: A similar vessel will be weaving Liverpool and they'll, they'll be crisscrossing, so to speak, but this will go on all year.
00:51:59.760 --> 00:52:17.400 Steven Jaffe: And what is revolutionary about that and and see me may seem strange to us today is that it was an innovation to have that strip to schedule for cargo ships and for that matter passenger ships and the black bow line took both passengers and cargo.
00:52:18.630 --> 00:52:33.060 Steven Jaffe: before that date, you know, a ship owner might advertise a date in the local newspaper, you know, in Hamilton's Evening Post or any, any one of the other a New York City dailies a weekly paper saying well on on June 23
00:52:34.350 --> 00:52:40.260 Steven Jaffe: My ship, the great Republic is going to sail to Liverpool, or wherever else, however.
00:52:41.040 --> 00:52:58.020 Steven Jaffe: If he had not really booked enough passengers or filled his hold of that ship with enough cargo he might wait a few days. So the advertised date or the stipulated date and the actual date of sailing might be different to be able to say, okay,
00:52:58.500 --> 00:53:01.950 Steven Jaffe: Rain or shine full or empty who, you know, however many
00:53:03.570 --> 00:53:14.010 Steven Jaffe: Passengers or cargoes I've got whereas I'm carrying we're going that became a major selling point for these kind of vessels and as and it really
00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:28.560 Steven Jaffe: lubricated trade between New York and England in the post revolutionary period, so much so that Liverpool because of these package ships Liverpool become is not only the great port of trade.
00:53:29.160 --> 00:53:41.220 Steven Jaffe: For New York City where New Yorkers are shipping Southern cotton primarily to Liverpool, then it's going into the the factories of Manchester, England nearby to be turned into cotton cloth.
00:53:43.110 --> 00:53:48.360 Steven Jaffe: But they're taking when the ships are coming back. They start bringing Irish immigrants who have crossed from Ireland to Liverpool.
00:53:49.530 --> 00:53:55.860 Steven Jaffe: And that whole immigration story that leads us to Ellis Island eventually
00:53:56.790 --> 00:54:05.520 Steven Jaffe: Really starts with Jeremiah Thompson. I'm creating this regularized route of ships. So it's not only a commerce story, it's a it's a
00:54:06.060 --> 00:54:14.820 Steven Jaffe: It's an immigration story. And so, in a certain sense, one can argue that Thompson is the is the is the sort of forefather or maybe even father
00:54:15.210 --> 00:54:26.520 Steven Jaffe: Of 19th century transatlantic commerce, which is so critical for New York City's growth and also the great waves of immigration that start populating the city in the mid early, mid 19th centuries.
00:54:27.480 --> 00:54:39.540 Jeff Goodman: Um, we don't have a lot of time left but speaking of water. That brings us to Governor to with Clinton, who was in what and how did he contribute to the growth of new york into the Empire State.
00:54:40.140 --> 00:54:50.100 Steven Jaffe: Yeah, another another remarkable character and visionary in his own way. I'm part of the Clinton political dynasty, which is a family.
00:54:51.570 --> 00:55:11.610 Steven Jaffe: Of of landholders and Hudson Valley become very involved in the in the colonies politics before the revolution and continue so afterwards so that his that George Clinton who's his pew and Clinton's uncle is that one of the most revolutionary governors of New York State.
00:55:13.470 --> 00:55:16.170 Steven Jaffe: Do it Clinton is mayor of New York City for a time.
00:55:17.520 --> 00:55:27.240 Steven Jaffe: He is elected governor of New York, in the end, and in the years immediately after the war of 1812 he pushes through his vision.
00:55:27.840 --> 00:55:41.160 Steven Jaffe: Which is to build this massive canal across New York State from Albany to Buffalo on the frontier of Lake Erie straight across. What is still in a large part of wilderness with farm country.
00:55:41.670 --> 00:55:48.810 Steven Jaffe: Because he recognizes as do others working on this with him that New York. If you are can get the jump.
00:55:49.560 --> 00:55:56.040 Steven Jaffe: Into the West, which is where the frontier is with the farmers and the pioneers you're settling especially the upper North
00:55:56.400 --> 00:56:06.750 Steven Jaffe: The upper Midwest around the Great Lakes New York can blow everyone else out of the water, you know, Philadelphia, Boston Baltimore if New York has that direct water route.
00:56:07.080 --> 00:56:19.410 Steven Jaffe: To the Great Lakes van. You're getting all the farm produce and lumber and so on. And you can also from New York City up to Albany ship across to that western frontier.
00:56:20.040 --> 00:56:28.410 Steven Jaffe: Tons and tons and tons and millions of dollars of merchandise which the farmers want the settlers want and the town's people of the emerging frontier want
00:56:28.680 --> 00:56:36.210 Steven Jaffe: So really, you know, I was brought up, sort of, as you may have been Jeff, I don't know, but but I'm dating myself I'm dating myself certainly
00:56:36.480 --> 00:56:47.460 Steven Jaffe: You know the song about you know that that on the year I can't remember the lyrics bit about the Erie Canal my my gal, Sal, and the rest of it. And I said, What is this, this is this corny.
00:56:48.240 --> 00:56:52.170 Steven Jaffe: As a kid, what is this corny business about the canal bodes well
00:56:52.650 --> 00:57:09.000 Steven Jaffe: It's not about that. Really, it's about New York glomming into the West and about the amazing connection between the Midwest and New York City and Western development Chicago becomes Chicago for a time. The second city. Now the third largest city in the country.
00:57:09.510 --> 00:57:20.730 Steven Jaffe: Largely because initially farmers in it on the Illinois frontier can get their stuff to Chicago, it goes on boats across the lakes ends up eventually at Buffalo, New York.
00:57:21.030 --> 00:57:32.940 Steven Jaffe: Comes down to the Erie Canal comes down the Hudson River to New York City and and so that's that's one of the great story. So we do a Clinton is is the, the, the father of that certainly
00:57:33.720 --> 00:57:38.940 Jeff Goodman: Well, when that's in New York, then became the Empire State Steve yes so much
00:57:39.420 --> 00:57:47.520 Jeff Goodman: We have been doing this evening show talking about some of the founding fathers of New York's commerce, we've talked about Alexander Hamilton.
00:57:47.970 --> 00:57:58.830 Jeff Goodman: Jeremiah Thompson Robert Fulton and governor to a Clinton, who was division behind the Erie Canal that made New York, the Empire State my second guess has been Steve Jaffe Steve is historian writer and Curator
00:57:59.430 --> 00:58:06.030 Jeff Goodman: Steve is published, you can get his books, New York at war capital of capital and activist New York on amazon.com
00:58:06.840 --> 00:58:13.080 Jeff Goodman: If you have comments or questions about the show, or if you'd like to get on our mailing list, please email me, Jeff at rediscovering New York that NYC.
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00:58:21.570 --> 00:58:31.290 Jeff Goodman: Once again, I'd like to thank our sponsors Chris pappas mortgage banker at TD Bank and the Law Offices of time sciatica focusing on wills estate planning probate and parents litigation.
00:58:31.860 --> 00:58:38.760 Jeff Goodman: One more thing before we sign off, I am Jeff Goodman, a real estate agent brown Harris Stevens in New York City and whether you're selling, buying leasing or renting
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00:58:50.250 --> 00:59:01.050 Jeff Goodman: Our producers Ralph story or our engineer is Sam Leibowitz our special consultant for the show is David Griffin of landmark branding. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.