The Hard Skills

Tuesday, May 28, 2024
Facebook Live Video from 2024/05/28 - Where to Start: The Importance of Sequencing in Leadership Strategies

Facebook Live Video from 2024/05/28 - Where to Start: The Importance of Sequencing in Leadership Strategies


2024/05/28 - Where to Start: The Importance of Sequencing in Leadership Strategies

[NEW EPISODE] Where to Start: The Importance of Sequencing in Leadership Strategies

Tuesdays 5:00pm - 6:00pm (EDT)                              


Listeners will learn what factors might get in the way of their leadership and business success related to having a poor strategy around where to start and why. We'll connect how Michelle Warner thinks about business development strategy with how Dr. Brancu thinks about leadership strategy when it comes to decision-making and actions for success. 

Do you ever feel like, “I don’t even know where to start!” Like you have so many different paths you can take, you’ve gotten so much advice, but now you are left feeling overwhelmed with which path is right? Well, this might be the right episode to help you gain some clarity around where to start. Leaders need to spend time develop the right strategy to navigate the complexities of internal and external personal factors required for leadership success. And our guest today will bring a different take - how business owners in particular can develop the right strategy to navigate the complexities of business development and growth. Together we'll explore the overlap between how she thinks about business development strategy with how I think about leadership strategy when it comes to decision-making and actions for success. Michelle Warner designs tiny companies that are built for the long run. With an MBA from one of the world’s top business schools and 15+ years growing small businesses, Michelle knows how to figure out what’s wrong and get it fixed when you hit a revenue plateau, and how to stabilize your business when you’re growing too fast and can’t keep up. She’s also the creator of Networking That Pays, the introvert-friendly, always awkward-free connection system that brings in reliable leads, consistent referrals and meaningful connections for your business in just one message a day.

#SequenceOverStrategy #NetworkingThatPays #BusinessDevelopment #LeadershipDevelopment #Strategy #TheHardSkills

Tune in for this empowering conversation at

Show Notes

Segment  1

In this episode of The Hard Skills, Dr. Brancu is joined by Michelle Warner, a designer for small companies, as they will discuss some of the overlaps between leadership strategy and decision-making. To start the show, Dr. Brancu and Michelle different ways leaders can get stuck when their business or organizational impact is growing. Michelle highlights the importance of the order of making decisions and how the sequence of decisions makes a huge difference for leaders and the business. 

Segment 2

After the first break, we return to Dr. Brancu wondering how someone knows they are moving in the right direction in terms of leadership strategy and decision-making. We learn Michelle’s point of view on this question, specifically learning that it is easier to know if you’re heading in the wrong direction. We also hear an excerpt from Dr. Brancu’s new book and they both discuss how the excerpt relates to their discussion. As the segment finished up, Dr. Brancu asked how someone would get “unstuck” from the root cause of an issue a leader might discover. 

Segment 3

Moving forward in the discussion, Dr. Brancu and Michelle talk about the more complicated portions of leadership strategy and what leaders should focus on when developing strategies. They also dive deeper into discussing the numerous execution phases for a plan or strategy and the communication of those plans. 

Segment 4

As the episode comes to a close, Dr. Branci and Michelle finish up by picking up where they left off in the previous segment, discussing if personalities clash with marketing strategies. They also discuss leadership skill sets and how there are unsuccessful models that prevent potential business owners from thriving or being successful in their organization. Out of everything they have discussed, Michelle wants to leave listeners with key advice to take a breath, do the Five Whys, do whatever you need to do when confronted with an issue, to find the root before trying to solve anything. To learn more about Michelle and her work, please visit or listen in on her podcast, “Sequence Over Strategy” for more in-depth conversations on numerous topics they have discussed in this episode. 


00:00:52.240 --> 00:01:18.359 Mira Brancu: Welcome to the hard skills show where we discuss how to develop the nuanced hard skills meaning the most challenging soft skills needed to make a real impact through your leadership. I'm your host, Dr. Miro Brancou. I'm a leadership consulting and coaching psychologist, founder of the Tower Scope leadership Academy and associate professor, a psychology today columnist, author of the Millennials Guide to Workplace politics.

00:01:18.390 --> 00:01:27.189 Mira Brancu: And I've had my own leadership career well before transitioning to helping teams and high achieving. Women navigate their leadership complexities.

00:01:28.240 --> 00:01:31.910 Mira Brancu: Now for this episode want you to think about this?

00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:34.769 Mira Brancu: Do you ever feel like

00:01:35.320 --> 00:01:46.459 Mira Brancu: I don't even know where to start like you have so many different paths you can take. You've gotten so much advice. But now you're feeling overwhelmed with which path is right.

00:01:46.860 --> 00:01:54.819 Mira Brancu: Well, if it's particular especially to your business. This might be the right episode to help you gain some clarity around where to start.

00:01:55.080 --> 00:02:21.819 Mira Brancu: Thank you for joining us today on your journey before I introduce you to our guest today. If you haven't yet checked out my newest free resources for saying no setting boundaries and overcoming self sabotaging beliefs, rooted and negative societal messages. You have to check these out. They came out of an episode that I aired on a topic based on a book that I'm currently working on, and you can find them at go tower,

00:02:21.990 --> 00:02:24.149 Mira Brancu: backslash resources

00:02:24.470 --> 00:02:27.210 Mira Brancu: and click on the other free resources to find them.

00:02:27.290 --> 00:02:38.080 Mira Brancu: Now I mentioned it because I focus on helping leaders develop the right strategy to navigate the complexities of internal and external personal factors required for leadership, success.

00:02:38.150 --> 00:02:46.899 Mira Brancu: Our guest today brings a different take helping business owners develop the right strategy to navigate the complexities of business development and growth.

00:02:47.190 --> 00:02:56.979 Mira Brancu: Now, you might be wondering why I have a marketing and business development expert on my show today, given the fact that I normally focus on coaching and organizational development experts. But

00:02:57.300 --> 00:03:00.220 Mira Brancu: when Michelle and I got talking, I thought.

00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:23.179 Mira Brancu: Dang! What an interesting twist to connect! How she thinks about business development strategy with how I think about leadership strategy when it comes to decision making and actions for success cause. There's some interesting overlaps there. Okay, so now, without any further ado, I'm super excited to introduce our special guest today. Michelle Warner.

00:03:23.220 --> 00:03:33.179 Mira Brancu: Michelle designs tiny companies that are built for the long run. I love that tagline. She's got an Mba from one of the world's top business schools

00:03:33.570 --> 00:03:36.399 Mira Brancu: over 15 years. Growing small businesses

00:03:36.730 --> 00:03:54.619 Mira Brancu: is the creator of networking that pays which she describes as the introvert, friendly, always awkward free connection system that brings in reliable leads consistent referrals and meaningful connections for your business. And just one message a day. I mean, if that doesn't speak to you. I don't know what was.

00:03:55.030 --> 00:04:06.499 Mira Brancu: She also has a new podcast sequence over strategy. It's literally on my phone. Right now, I've been listening to it, eating it up. I love it. I love all the things that she has to say. So

00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:08.579 Mira Brancu: welcome Michelle, to the show.

00:04:08.580 --> 00:04:13.888 Michelle Warner: Oh, thank you so much for having me, and thanks for having the podcast. Up that was fun to see it on your phone.

00:04:14.110 --> 00:04:34.690 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. So. Yeah. So this episode is gonna be a little bit different than my usual, and that together, we're gonna be co-exploring the connections between our different ways of working with leaders and creating new insights for leaders who are focused on both building their businesses while also managing the internal and external people stuff

00:04:34.810 --> 00:04:50.209 Mira Brancu: and those of you who aren't building your business but are growing your influence and impact within an organization. I definitely do think that this is for you as well. Okay, a great topic for Season 4 is focus on navigating leadership, complexity.

00:04:50.730 --> 00:04:52.369 Mira Brancu: Are you ready? Okay.

00:04:52.370 --> 00:04:52.760 Michelle Warner: But.

00:04:52.760 --> 00:05:07.239 Mira Brancu: Get started. Get out whatever you like to take notes with. I'm a big like pen and paper person, but you can take out your devices to take notes, reflect deeply and identify at least one small step

00:05:07.460 --> 00:05:10.509 Mira Brancu: to further your hard skills muscle.

00:05:10.700 --> 00:05:12.484 Mira Brancu: Let's get started with

00:05:13.570 --> 00:05:20.830 Mira Brancu: first, like the different ways. We see leaders getting stuck when they're growing their business or organizational growth and impact.

00:05:21.260 --> 00:05:28.770 Mira Brancu: Okay, what? I'm gonna share a little bit of like my side. But let's let's hear from you first, Michelle. What do you see.

00:05:29.607 --> 00:05:52.400 Michelle Warner: You know I again like I love how you described where I come from, and a little bit of a deeper back or a different background, and and how it leads to such an interesting conversation, because what I see is people making the wrong decisions in the wrong order? So not even making the wrong decisions, but just running through a decision tree in the wrong order. And that has a ton of impact. Obviously, if you're growing a business.

00:05:52.580 --> 00:06:04.959 Michelle Warner: making decisions in the wrong order just has a real cyclical effect. And and how your business grows. But if you're in an organization, or if you're a leader of any kind, if you're not asking those right questions in the right order.

00:06:05.090 --> 00:06:15.279 Michelle Warner: it's gonna have a knock on effect, and it's gonna eventually start multiplying on itself to the point where you're gonna get. Probably get some results that that aren't so interesting.

00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:30.373 Mira Brancu: Absolutely a hundred percent. So I'm gonna like, share what I'm thinking about when I work with leaders when it comes to the wrong order, and I'd love to hear like, do you see the kind the same kind of things? You see different things. So for me.

00:06:31.182 --> 00:06:33.647 Mira Brancu: you know one thing that

00:06:34.210 --> 00:06:45.173 Mira Brancu: we we talk a lot about is when should I come in to a process to help people? So, for example, sometimes they

00:06:45.760 --> 00:06:51.249 Mira Brancu: see a problem with employees not getting along. So they want me to come in.

00:06:51.300 --> 00:06:56.190 Mira Brancu: and they want me to work directly with the employees that are not getting long.

00:06:56.520 --> 00:07:04.169 Mira Brancu: and that seems very obvious and straightforward employees are not getting along. There's conflict on a team. Please come in, do a training and help them

00:07:04.440 --> 00:07:07.920 Mira Brancu: on the surface. That makes sense. However.

00:07:08.420 --> 00:07:21.050 Mira Brancu: what I wanna know is, what is the root cause of that right? And I I bet I bet we have in common a root cause analysis kind of framework or structure in our heads.

00:07:21.490 --> 00:07:25.219 Mira Brancu: where we try to figure out like. But where did this start? In the first place.

00:07:25.320 --> 00:07:35.259 Mira Brancu: right? Like it, did it actually start with the employees? Or is there something happening in the structure, the processes, the systems

00:07:35.270 --> 00:07:41.009 Mira Brancu: that are causing them to get agitated and butt heads. And that's just a surface level symptom problem.

00:07:41.370 --> 00:07:42.580 Mira Brancu: But what do you think? What do you see.

00:07:42.580 --> 00:08:03.469 Michelle Warner: Yeah, absolutely. I'm always looking for that root cause. Because when you can find the root cause, that's when you can start asking questions and and making decisions in in the right order, and I don't know how you find your root cause. But I you you talked about me going to business school, like one of the classic Mba frameworks, is something called the 5 Wise, and it came from manufacturing, and it came from operations.

00:08:03.470 --> 00:08:14.649 Michelle Warner: and it is the simple idea that if something is going wrong on that surface level, this again came from the manufacturing floor, but it definitely relates directly to just employees not getting along.

00:08:14.650 --> 00:08:25.379 Michelle Warner: If you ask why, once you're gonna get a surface level answer, you're gonna get so and so doesn't like so and so, or on a manufacturing floor. You're gonna get so and so wasn't in the right place at the right time.

00:08:25.430 --> 00:08:37.259 Michelle Warner: Okay, that's maybe an interesting answer. But as soon as you solve that? Guess what? A day later the problems back? Because in our in the framework I use, you have to ask why? 5 times.

00:08:37.390 --> 00:08:50.189 Michelle Warner: and when you ask why? 5 times, then, once you get to that fifth y. Now you're getting to the root issue. And now you're getting to something that if you can solve and crack that. Then the rest of the stuff that you found will take care of itself.

00:08:50.460 --> 00:08:50.980 Michelle Warner: Yeah.

00:08:50.980 --> 00:08:51.340 Mira Brancu: Absolutely.

00:08:51.340 --> 00:08:51.850 Michelle Warner: What you.

00:08:51.850 --> 00:08:52.520 Mira Brancu: Yeah.

00:08:52.670 --> 00:09:00.360 Mira Brancu: totally. I am. Gonna describe a situation that I see in a second. But I'd love for you to start with.

00:09:00.771 --> 00:09:19.740 Mira Brancu: Just an example of like a typical sort of like what? What is a typical challenge that a business owner might come to you where you start thinking I I better start the 5 wise. And how does that? How does that look like on, you know? If I were watching this conversation, what does it look like.

00:09:19.740 --> 00:09:27.059 Michelle Warner: Yeah. And then, even if you don't have a business, you'll be able to relate to this one, because over and over again it's I don't have enough leads right. I don't.

00:09:27.060 --> 00:09:27.560 Mira Brancu: Yes.

00:09:27.560 --> 00:09:27.970 Michelle Warner: We've.

00:09:27.970 --> 00:09:28.700 Mira Brancu: Yes.

00:09:28.700 --> 00:09:49.810 Michelle Warner: I think tomorrow I'm going to start dancing on Tiktok, posting on Linkedin 14,000 times a day. I'm being dramatic now, but this is really how people respond. Where they don't have enough leads. They look at that. They ask a First Level. Why why don't I have enough leads. I'm not loud enough on social media. And so their answer is, I'm just gonna start screaming from the rooftops everywhere.

00:09:49.880 --> 00:10:12.830 Michelle Warner: And no, no, no, the the the root cause is much deeper than that. We have to ask, why don't we have those leads? Many more layers down? And we come to, you know, messaging issues. You're not clear. You don't even know what you're selling. You don't know who you're selling it to, and so I don't care what you start screaming from the rooftops on social media. No one's gonna notice, because you're unclear about what you're selling, what you're doing.

00:10:13.050 --> 00:10:14.742 Mira Brancu: So does that mean that

00:10:16.800 --> 00:10:18.669 Mira Brancu: depending on

00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:22.200 Mira Brancu: the you could have the same question

00:10:22.340 --> 00:10:25.490 Mira Brancu: from 5 different people. I'm not getting enough leads right.

00:10:25.846 --> 00:10:30.599 Mira Brancu: but you might have a different root cause for each one of those 5 people.

00:10:30.790 --> 00:10:57.709 Michelle Warner: Absolutely. So when I'm looking at a business, and and if they're coming to me with, I don't have enough leads. What I'm gonna immediately do is start going through the 5 wise, and I have a process or a call. We we diagnose what's going on with your business. And during that process we drill down and we start looking at what's the product? Mix? What? Who is the customer? Who do you want to sell to? And how are you marketing to them? Those are the I call those the big 3 components of of a business on the, on the public facing side of things.

00:10:57.830 --> 00:11:11.090 Michelle Warner: And what is really interesting is that those 3 components need to be in alignment. And that's a big, trendy word. But it is true. Your product mix has to be in alignment, ie. Needs to be wanted by the customers.

00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:17.049 Michelle Warner: And then there's actually a type of marketing that is going to be in alignment with what you are trying to sell.

00:11:17.280 --> 00:11:37.229 Michelle Warner: and many, many times people are not in alignment with that, and so that can cause any number of issues from minor where you're just not. You don't quite have enough leads to putting a business completely out of business if you don't have enough, and it just depends on how much noise and inefficiency, and how out of alignment you are.

00:11:37.230 --> 00:12:02.000 Michelle Warner: And so when I have someone come to me and say, I don't have enough leads. We drill down and we diagnose, is it a product mixed problem? Is it a customer problem? Is it a marketing problem, or is it a problem in how all of those things are interacting with each other. And therefore maybe you don't technically have a product mixed problem. But you do, because it's not in alignment with the customer in the marketing. So therefore, we need to change one of those things to get them back into alignment.

00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:03.175 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And I think that

00:12:03.900 --> 00:12:06.249 Mira Brancu: what that means is.

00:12:06.400 --> 00:12:17.970 Mira Brancu: there's a different intervention for a different root cause. Now, th there are. It's not like endless numbers of interventions, right? But piecing together

00:12:18.330 --> 00:12:22.619 Mira Brancu: what the intervention is for the root cause is important, and

00:12:22.740 --> 00:12:31.510 Mira Brancu: it's I was just writing about this in my new book so like it's so fresh in my mind right now how to think about this, like, you know.

00:12:31.780 --> 00:12:43.829 Mira Brancu: it's like coming to the doctor and saying, I have a headache. Okay, a headache can be caused by a billion things. Right? It could be, you know, migraines, tension headaches, stress.

00:12:43.890 --> 00:12:55.119 Mira Brancu: It could also be very, very serious things that you have to address immediately. Aneurysms, strokes, you know all all kinds of things. And so knowing

00:12:55.310 --> 00:12:57.630 Mira Brancu: why you have the headache

00:12:57.940 --> 00:13:00.510 Mira Brancu: so that you're you're not offered like

00:13:00.620 --> 00:13:03.011 Mira Brancu: at, you know, an aspirin.

00:13:03.980 --> 00:13:08.839 Mira Brancu: but rather targeting what will completely

00:13:09.230 --> 00:13:16.130 Mira Brancu: cure the issue and hopefully save you or your business is critical.

00:13:16.766 --> 00:13:24.289 Mira Brancu: Otherwise it's like, you know. Continuing to apply Band-aids or Pills out. Don't work, or whatever right.

00:13:24.880 --> 00:13:31.740 Michelle Warner: Absolutely, absolutely, and it can also expose choices, you know. That's one thing I say is like when we get down to the root cause.

00:13:31.770 --> 00:13:38.530 Michelle Warner: I don't necessarily care what choices you make about. If your your 3 things are out of alignment.

00:13:38.550 --> 00:13:59.550 Michelle Warner: we can choose different combinations thereof. You're you're in a power you're in a position of power to to make that choice. The only thing I care about is that you get things back into alignment. And so I think, as a leader that's also really interesting. If you have a team that's fighting, if you have any kind of situation, we can drill down to the root cause. It's most likely you have some choices in there. Of how to address it. Then.

00:13:59.900 --> 00:14:01.745 Mira Brancu: Great great. So

00:14:03.370 --> 00:14:05.879 Mira Brancu: this leads me to wonder.

00:14:06.030 --> 00:14:27.410 Mira Brancu: how does somebody know they're doing the wrong thing? So we're we're reaching an add break, and when we come back let's explore like, how can we figure out the signs to know that we're not going in the right direction in order to course. Correct. Alright. So you are listening to

00:14:27.670 --> 00:14:47.829 Mira Brancu: the hard skills with me, Dr. Mayor Bronco and our guest, Michelle Warner. We air on Tuesdays at 5 pm. Eastern. If you would like to join us online right now and ask questions that we can answer in real time, you can find us on Linkedin or, and we'll be right back with our guest in just a moment.

00:17:02.500 --> 00:17:08.319 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mirabu and our guest, Michelle Warner.

00:17:08.500 --> 00:17:10.510 Mira Brancu: Now, Michelle, how

00:17:11.006 --> 00:17:18.139 Mira Brancu: how is it that people know when they're going in the right direction. What are the telltale signs.

00:17:18.740 --> 00:17:40.729 Michelle Warner: I would say, it's easier to know if you're going in the wrong direction. So that's the first check. Yeah. And and I'm looking for is there noise in the system? That's what we called in the business world? Is there inefficiency? Is there noise? Is there something that's not flowing correctly? And so that's the first thing I'm looking for. If you are trying something, and there continues to be a lot of noise, you're probably going down the the wrong track

00:17:40.730 --> 00:17:56.640 Michelle Warner: same way like, do a really quick 5. Wise. The 5 wise does not need to be complicated. But if you ask yourself a first in a second level. Why, even if you think you're going in the right direction, why am I doing this? And and whatever your answer is, ask why again. And if you're getting

00:17:56.700 --> 00:18:09.970 Michelle Warner: surface level, answers it is likely to mean that you haven't gotten deep enough to to figure out the real root. Cause. And so, even if it's looking like you're getting a few good signals, it's likely you're gonna run into problems down the road.

00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:18.790 Mira Brancu: So what is the difference between a surface level response like, if I were to ask myself, why? Why right?

00:18:19.150 --> 00:18:27.410 Mira Brancu: How will I know when to stop. How will I know like this is still surface level, mirror or dang? That's it, that's it.

00:18:27.460 --> 00:18:28.609 Mira Brancu: That's the thing.

00:18:28.770 --> 00:18:34.180 Michelle Warner: Well, this is part of where it's not always, you know, black and white. But I will tell you you're gonna have a gut hit.

00:18:34.510 --> 00:18:48.049 Michelle Warner: Know that you have gotten deep enough, and if you are, ask answering questions, if if you've had a challenge for a little while, and you're answer, and you're asking yourself the 5 wise, and you're rattling off some relatively obvious answers.

00:18:48.240 --> 00:19:11.400 Michelle Warner: I'm guessing that's not going to be. It's going to be surface level enough, I literally ask myself, Is this the equivalent of me telling myself that dancing on Tiktok will solve the problem? And if it is, then I know that I probably haven't solved the problem, and I need to go a little bit deeper and figure it come to something that surprises me right, or that makes me think twice, because then I know that I'm onto something.

00:19:11.980 --> 00:19:17.476 Mira Brancu: Love that love that this is just inspiring me just to give an example of

00:19:18.408 --> 00:19:33.161 Mira Brancu: my my experiences with this, and what the gut like oof that you just mentioned feels like. So I'm gonna literally read from the chapter I just wrote because it's so fresh in my mind. So

00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:35.880 Mira Brancu: Let me start with Elaine.

00:19:35.980 --> 00:19:54.949 Mira Brancu: Elaine was the reason I wrote this started writing this book among all my clients. She had the greatest challenge, letting go. Of one thing the intractable idea that quitting anything meant failure, and yet she was burned out, exhausted, frustrated, and confused as to why all her efforts were backfiring

00:19:55.200 --> 00:20:00.340 Mira Brancu: at best, and bringing unwanted negative scrutiny and investigations at worse.

00:20:00.710 --> 00:20:17.690 Mira Brancu: Elaine was unbelievably talented, driven high, achieving highly likable and humble, like so many women I work with. She was a high achiever at work, and in her personal life, for example, on the side Elaine built airplanes. That's right. She built airplanes as a hobby.

00:20:17.790 --> 00:20:22.509 Mira Brancu: and she was a competitive road biker who had won awards until she blew out her knee

00:20:22.660 --> 00:20:35.769 Mira Brancu: because she didn't know how to do anything on slow drive, only in Hyper drive. She was amazing and I worried. She would wear her body out through her stress the way she'd blown out her knee through her sheer will to succeed at all costs and her well being?

00:20:35.820 --> 00:20:54.509 Mira Brancu: Why does she continue pushing so hard to spate, despite the signs telling her to stop, quit, and let go. The answer is deep beneath the surface, at the root cause of what drove her behaviors. The root cause of why we do what we do equates the risk factors we have for continuing on our unhealthy behavior patterns.

00:20:55.140 --> 00:20:59.840 Mira Brancu: And I'll just skip over to where I talk about the why that I asked her

00:21:00.270 --> 00:21:07.610 Mira Brancu: me, why do you feel like a failure, Elaine? Because I haven't accomplished everything I set out to that. I promised I would me.

00:21:07.700 --> 00:21:10.929 Mira Brancu: Why do you think you haven't accomplished everything like you set out to?

00:21:11.070 --> 00:21:15.060 Mira Brancu: Because I didn't have access to the right policies which led people to complaining.

00:21:15.250 --> 00:21:19.170 Mira Brancu: Why didn't you have access to those policies? Because no one told me about them?

00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:21.279 Mira Brancu: Why did no one tell you about them?

00:21:21.340 --> 00:21:27.919 Mira Brancu: I don't know. They should have, it would have been part of a normal onboarding process. But I was just thrown into this job with no onboarding process.

00:21:28.300 --> 00:21:37.109 Mira Brancu: Why were you thrown into this without any onboarding process, including access and support to the appropriate resources to help you be successful. If that's a normal part of the process.

00:21:37.460 --> 00:21:41.259 Mira Brancu: they were desperate to just fill the spot. They knew I was capable of a lot.

00:21:42.070 --> 00:21:46.970 Mira Brancu: None of this sounds like you quit anything. It sounds like they quit on you before you even started.

00:21:47.610 --> 00:21:48.470 Mira Brancu: Oof.

00:21:48.860 --> 00:21:49.970 Mira Brancu: that's

00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:52.129 Mira Brancu: that's the gut right.

00:21:52.130 --> 00:21:52.920 Michelle Warner: Yup! Yup!

00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:53.430 Mira Brancu: Right there.

00:21:53.430 --> 00:21:57.309 Michelle Warner: That moment where you have the realization they were in a rush. They like that's

00:21:57.350 --> 00:22:08.670 Michelle Warner: that's gonna jump out at you right? Everything else feels a little surface level. Oh, I didn't have the right documents. And okay, that's a breakdown somewhere. Let's get to the reason why there was a breakdown.

00:22:08.670 --> 00:22:24.049 Mira Brancu: Yes, okay. So we've asked the 5 wise. You and I have gotten to that root cause. Let's talk through now. When you work with a business owner, and you've gotten down to where they got stuck.

00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:28.519 Mira Brancu: What do they do then? How do they get unstuck.

00:22:29.300 --> 00:22:32.589 Michelle Warner: That's where I was talking a little bit. Then we've exposed choices.

00:22:33.033 --> 00:23:00.949 Michelle Warner: And that is a really powerful place to be. So when you're hanging out at the top level, wise your first or second level y, you might feel like you have choices. But what you're really doing is just kind of throwing spaghetti at the wall. When you get down to that root cause, there are probably a couple of different ways to solve something. So again when I'm getting to a root. Cause I am finding in a business is your product. Mix in alignment with your customer, mix in alignment with your marketing mix. Our answer is usually No.

00:23:01.150 --> 00:23:07.089 Michelle Warner: but that doesn't mean that one of those is glaringly the thing that needs to be fixed.

00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:23.759 Michelle Warner: What usually happens at that point is, I say, which one of these do you feel the strongest about? Do you feel the strongest about continuing to serve these customers? You've always been serving. Do you feel the strongest about this product you have on the market? Do you feel the strongest about how you like to market? Great pick one of those

00:23:23.900 --> 00:23:36.680 Michelle Warner: and then talk about making decisions in the right order. When we have picked one of those. Now, we can look at the other 2 and say, Okay, what? What do we want to change about those 2 in order to be in alignment with the thing that you just picked?

00:23:36.840 --> 00:23:46.609 Michelle Warner: And so when we get to that to that foundational level, and leaders are in the same situation. Right? You probably can start in one place that feels strongest to you.

00:23:46.760 --> 00:23:49.479 Michelle Warner: and then layer the other stuff on top of that.

00:23:50.620 --> 00:23:51.280 Mira Brancu: So

00:23:52.800 --> 00:23:59.849 Mira Brancu: let's take a couple of examples just to make this real let's say, you have a business owner who realizes

00:23:59.890 --> 00:24:05.470 Mira Brancu: that they feel kind of strongly about their customer mix being a little bit off

00:24:05.610 --> 00:24:09.650 Mira Brancu: right? So they're feeling like

00:24:10.020 --> 00:24:22.589 Mira Brancu: some of the customers that they get. They're constantly having to compromise with the pricing or how much they deliver. There's a lot of negotiation. There's a lot of back and forth it. This is just feels

00:24:22.730 --> 00:24:28.959 Mira Brancu: kind of like arduous or just off. Does that mean that

00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:35.929 Mira Brancu: when you talk about like sequence over strategy, that they should start with the customer.

00:24:36.527 --> 00:24:39.829 Mira Brancu: Mix first and then make some decisions. After that.

00:24:40.340 --> 00:25:02.310 Michelle Warner: Yeah, if that's the situation that we're in. And this happens all the time, especially super small businesses. We're run by one or 2 people. Those businesses grow up and mature, and they get to a place where they're a little frustrated with their original customers. And so they have to mature, the customer base. And so it is very common that we get down there. And they say, you know what I actually don't like my customers anymore.

00:25:02.310 --> 00:25:20.829 Michelle Warner: And so how can we either change the customer? Or, what is even more common, that happens is that they have matured their product. A reason why customers would be kind of frustrated or negotiating. Is that a business has switched its product up a little bit, and it's no longer a match for those original customers.

00:25:20.830 --> 00:25:21.410 Mira Brancu: Mmm.

00:25:21.410 --> 00:25:25.049 Michelle Warner: Business never got around to updating how they market.

00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:38.309 Michelle Warner: So a lot of times what we'll do is we'll say, Hey, I hear you that your customers are frustrating you? Is it because you actually really enjoy this product that you're putting out into the world right now? And they're actually not a match for that any longer.

00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:48.649 Michelle Warner: Really hard conversation we have to have, because that is probably the most common fix that we find is we want to keep the updated product.

00:25:48.670 --> 00:26:03.759 Michelle Warner: but acknowledge that the customers are no longer a match for it. And what you just listed are the symptoms that they show that tell you they're no longer a match for it, so we gotta go find a whole new batch of customers because you have grown up as a business, and you're no longer a match for your original customers.

00:26:03.930 --> 00:26:07.048 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And and I'm appreciating also that

00:26:08.260 --> 00:26:15.230 Mira Brancu: even though, like you're, you're feeling like you need to start with the customer. You're still

00:26:15.530 --> 00:26:16.900 Mira Brancu: targeting

00:26:17.120 --> 00:26:30.220 Mira Brancu: the the alignment piece, the matching between does the product match your customers? Does the marketing match your customers and your product? And they all still have to go together.

00:26:30.570 --> 00:26:44.379 Michelle Warner: Exactly. And I could imagine this in a leadership scenario as a team is growing and changing, the same things would be happening right? You get down to that foundational level, and there are probably similar components that contribute to a culture.

00:26:44.470 --> 00:26:51.319 Michelle Warner: And so I could see that you get down to that foundational level. And you say, Well, what? Which? Which one of these components isn't working anymore?

00:26:51.410 --> 00:26:56.359 Michelle Warner: And do we actually have to change that component? Or is it that something else has changed?

00:26:56.420 --> 00:27:03.500 Michelle Warner: And so we wanna 0 in on that thing that has changed and really celebrate it? And therefore other things need to be updated.

00:27:03.500 --> 00:27:06.510 Mira Brancu: Yeah, that's absolutely true, especially when you have

00:27:06.530 --> 00:27:31.209 Mira Brancu: new members on a team. But nobody spent enough time sort of acknowledging the fact that the you know, member that left brought something really unique and only they were able to bring it. And then the new member doesn't bring that. And then all of a sudden, there's conflict, and it's not about the new member as much as it is the loss of something that they're not gonna be able to fill with somebody else in that position.

00:27:32.070 --> 00:27:43.309 Michelle Warner: That's the exact same situation as a products growing up or customers are growing up. And you're you're not meeting them. There's something missing there, you've inserted too much noise. It's just not working anymore.

00:27:43.430 --> 00:27:50.700 Michelle Warner: So let's get it down component parts, and you'll find a different way to fill what that missing person brought to the table.

00:27:50.970 --> 00:27:55.325 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And with your example, and mine.

00:27:57.020 --> 00:28:00.629 Mira Brancu: if you find out that

00:28:01.610 --> 00:28:08.360 Mira Brancu: the person is loving in love with this product that they have now developed. But the customers don't fit.

00:28:09.450 --> 00:28:12.449 Mira Brancu: Then what what happens at that point?

00:28:12.450 --> 00:28:25.429 Michelle Warner: That's where we have a not so easy conversation. Because what the choice typically becomes is that we have to let go of the old customer base and go find a new customer base.

00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:32.350 Michelle Warner: and that is a really painful part of but common part of the evolution, especially of a small business.

00:28:32.723 --> 00:28:48.190 Michelle Warner: That's run by one person or 2 people, because their natural curiosity grows up, they they naturally do different things. So it makes sense that customer bases change. But that's not an easy place to be as a business owner, you, you know, as as you can imagine, having to

00:28:48.210 --> 00:28:49.909 Michelle Warner: almost restart and find it.

00:28:49.910 --> 00:28:50.480 Mira Brancu: Yeah, ask.

00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:50.850 Michelle Warner: Right.

00:28:50.850 --> 00:28:51.600 Mira Brancu: And

00:28:52.800 --> 00:28:58.350 Mira Brancu: if they have to find a new customer base. That's when then the marketing mix comes into play right.

00:28:58.350 --> 00:29:22.790 Michelle Warner: E. Exactly, exactly, because different customer the way I would describe this typically is, we would have a lower maturity customer, a more beginner customer at the beginning. So the conversation we're usually having is that the product mix has gotten a little bit more developed. And so now their customer base is a little higher on a maturity level. And so a more mature customer responds to marketing in a different way than a less mature customer. The example I always use is

00:29:22.790 --> 00:29:31.780 Michelle Warner: there's someone out in the world today who is seeing an iphone for the first time. That is an immature customer, nothing to do with their intelligence. They're just immature in the iphone market.

00:29:32.053 --> 00:29:45.979 Michelle Warner: And there's also someone who has had every new iphone on every new release date. And that would be a more mature customer. You would market to those people very differently. And so that's where you have to bring your marketing up to speed with with the new customer base.

00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:55.140 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. And so when we were reaching an ad break when we come back, maybe we can hear a little bit more about like?

00:29:55.572 --> 00:29:57.929 Mira Brancu: What are what are the different

00:29:58.406 --> 00:30:12.300 Mira Brancu: things that we need to be thinking about with the marketing that target, different customer needs and different product needs cause this. This is where it gets like super interesting for me. And and I do think that for

00:30:12.806 --> 00:30:21.929 Mira Brancu: leaders who are embedded in larger organizations. This is also kind of an an interesting aspect of the challenges of

00:30:22.310 --> 00:30:28.320 Mira Brancu: not being able to meet all needs. So how how do you then target the needs that are necessary. Right?

00:30:28.751 --> 00:30:36.619 Mira Brancu: So you're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Broncou and our guest today Michelle Warner, will be right back in just a moment.

00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:47.320 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mirabu and our guest today, Michelle Warner. Now we have talked about

00:32:47.792 --> 00:32:50.210 Mira Brancu: trying to do things in the right order.

00:32:50.830 --> 00:32:54.749 Mira Brancu: We've talked about learning how to do that by going through the 5 Y's

00:32:55.100 --> 00:32:59.990 Mira Brancu: and getting to the root cause. And we talked about. Once you do that.

00:33:00.090 --> 00:33:02.029 Mira Brancu: you will sort of pinpoint.

00:33:02.100 --> 00:33:06.329 Mira Brancu: Do I start with the product? Mix the customer, mix or the marketing mix.

00:33:06.530 --> 00:33:12.440 Mira Brancu: but at that point. You might have to have some difficult conversations, and

00:33:12.490 --> 00:33:18.630 Mira Brancu: you might have to start thinking through the order of things. Is it the customer that needs to change first.

00:33:18.980 --> 00:33:23.539 Mira Brancu: or is it the product? And sometimes you'll realize once after you get through those 5 wise

00:33:24.100 --> 00:33:27.960 Mira Brancu: Which way to go? Did I summarize that? Okay, so far.

00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:28.859 Michelle Warner: Nailed it, nailed it.

00:33:28.860 --> 00:33:35.289 Mira Brancu: Okay, okay, now, we're getting to what I consider the most complicated.

00:33:35.360 --> 00:33:37.490 Mira Brancu: Right? It's it's one thing to say, like.

00:33:37.850 --> 00:33:54.370 Mira Brancu: I don't have quite the right customers, and you're pretty clear on that or the right products, and you might be fairly clear on that but the marketing, I find, is a little bit more nebulous. Maybe that's just me. I suspect it's not only me, and so I'm I'm curious. Number one.

00:33:54.720 --> 00:34:02.379 Mira Brancu: Do you find that among other business owners to be the case as well. And if so, why? Why is that one the most nebulous.

00:34:02.970 --> 00:34:08.460 Michelle Warner: I think it's the most nebulous, interestingly enough, because it's the most talked about. And I'll

00:34:08.820 --> 00:34:34.383 Michelle Warner: explain. Explain. It is very easy to think. Oh, marketing, right? And we can just do some marketing activities. And it feels like marketing is something that you can just Google, some skills on and figure out, and it's a lot more complicated than that. And it's every marketing strategy does not tie to every product, mix and every customer mix as we've been talking about. And so I think it feels a little bit.

00:34:35.280 --> 00:35:00.949 Michelle Warner: yeah, I always say, it's just like this amorphous blob like I'm going to market. And that is really confusing. So instead, again, in in terms of talking it down to size, making the right decisions in the right order, we want to stay away from choosing a marketing strategy. And when I say choosing a marketing strategy I'm talking about, am I going to be present on Linkedin? Am I going to be present on Facebook. Am I going to launch a podcast those are marketing strategies. Those are the last decisions you make.

00:35:01.250 --> 00:35:28.890 Michelle Warner: And instead, you want to first define how your audience is going to respond to what is essentially persuasion material. So I'm gonna take a leap and say, if you're the leader of an organization. This is kind of the same conversation, because you were trying to persuade your team, or either a micro team or an entire organization right? And in order to do that, you have to first understand. Who are you trying to persuade, and why and what are the dynamics of that group?

00:35:29.260 --> 00:35:41.680 Michelle Warner: And this is where I talk about something I call the marketing continuum, and I keep. I'm I'm Italian. I keep using the the hands going, but the continuum is just a line, and all marketing strategies

00:35:41.820 --> 00:35:51.529 Michelle Warner: are in alignment somewhere on this line every marketing strategy could have is somewhere on it. The left side of this continuum is made up of what I call relationship strategies.

00:35:51.770 --> 00:35:55.020 Michelle Warner: And the right side is made up of what I call traffic strategies.

00:35:55.450 --> 00:36:11.319 Michelle Warner: Now, relationship strategies are those that map really? Well, when you are trying to reach fewer numbers of people, and you want to have a bigger impact on them. And you want to have what we would call in the business world high conversion, meaning you would want a lot of your leads to close.

00:36:11.470 --> 00:36:26.320 Michelle Warner: So I could imagine in the traditional leadership role. If you are a manager, this would be when you are with your core team where you wanna have really high buy in and you wanna have high relationship and high impact with everything that you say, we're gonna look at relationship strategies to do that.

00:36:26.610 --> 00:36:44.770 Michelle Warner: Traffic strategies, on the other hand, are those strategies we use when we're more mass market. You want want to reach it. You have to reach a ton of people, I should say, and that's going to lead to a little bit of lower conversion rates, and it is going to probably involve a little bit more of a generic product.

00:36:45.600 --> 00:36:56.019 Michelle Warner: and understanding how your product maps and how your customer maps. Again, if we have that customer who's seen an iphone on day one, they're gonna map to traffic strategies.

00:36:56.160 --> 00:37:09.200 Michelle Warner: Because that's you know, big populations. It's mass marketing. If you have someone who's really, really sophisticated, that's gonna map to relationship strategies, you want to do things where you're gonna be able to have high impact with them and really build a relationship.

00:37:10.060 --> 00:37:31.569 Michelle Warner: And so leader in an organization, I actually you can stop me if we're going too far. This is fascinating to me. It's hitting me right now. If you're a leader in an organization when you're talking to a big chunk of the organization. You're probably thinking in traffic terms. If you are talking to your team, your core, you know your direct reports. You're thinking in relationship terms.

00:37:31.890 --> 00:37:43.010 Michelle Warner: And if you cross those boundaries again, that's where we see marketing efforts totally fall apart. If I have a product that is in alignment with relationship marketing. And I am trying to traffic market.

00:37:43.100 --> 00:37:50.430 Michelle Warner: not going to work very well. Also in the opposite, you know, if I have a traffic product. And I'm trying to relationship market. It's going to not go well.

00:37:50.560 --> 00:37:58.140 Michelle Warner: And so that's where you need again that that alignment to come in. And I can imagine. Again, the same would be the same in an organization. If you were

00:37:58.410 --> 00:38:03.259 Michelle Warner: throwing out a bunch of generic stuff to your core team of leaders. They're not going to buy in.

00:38:03.410 --> 00:38:09.270 Michelle Warner: But if you are going way too deep to your entire organization, they are also not going to buy in

00:38:09.380 --> 00:38:14.209 Michelle Warner: and understanding that alignment, and in who your audience is, is really really important.

00:38:14.420 --> 00:38:16.530 Mira Brancu: Absolutely I'm thinking about

00:38:16.980 --> 00:38:19.510 Mira Brancu: when we talk with

00:38:19.680 --> 00:38:22.930 Mira Brancu: leaders about the 3 stages of change.

00:38:22.970 --> 00:38:26.150 Mira Brancu: It's vision, alignment, execution.

00:38:26.290 --> 00:38:36.520 Mira Brancu: There's too many leaders that want to jump from the visioning stage to the execution stage. Guess what happens when you jump from vision to execution with insufficient alignment

00:38:36.740 --> 00:38:49.275 Mira Brancu: the execution falls apart. Why does it fall apart? Because you haven't gotten the buy in from the right people at the right moment and stage in the right way. And

00:38:50.700 --> 00:38:57.340 Mira Brancu: what happens is, people will. Within an organization people might undermine. They might

00:38:57.942 --> 00:39:07.790 Mira Brancu: criticize, they might get overwhelmed or confused. They might backtrack, they might sabotage. All of these efforts are because people

00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:09.770 Mira Brancu: did not buy in

00:39:09.810 --> 00:39:12.760 Mira Brancu: to the execution or the vision in the first place.

00:39:12.790 --> 00:39:23.120 Mira Brancu: So now they're picking it apart so that it doesn't happen because it it doesn't make any sense to them, right? But when you're in the alignment phase.

00:39:23.670 --> 00:39:33.939 Mira Brancu: there's different kinds of communication. So there's the high level communication. And that's like the town halls, the email blast. And it's super simple.

00:39:34.210 --> 00:39:37.518 Mira Brancu: And it's like bullet pointed, structured.

00:39:38.330 --> 00:40:00.029 Mira Brancu: messages about why you're doing the thing you're doing and what will happen? Nothing so detail that it's completely overwhelming and confusing to people right then, once you can offer that, there might be a subset of people who have much more questions or much more invested. They might be your subject matter experts, the people most likely to execute the people who are

00:40:00.330 --> 00:40:05.570 Mira Brancu: most likely to be impacted. They're going to need much more of the relational stuff

00:40:06.250 --> 00:40:21.559 Mira Brancu: so that they get it. But they're also like getting emotionally excited and connected to your vision. These are 2 different ways of communicating. But you're gonna overwhelm some people. If you communicate this piece in this way. It's exactly what you just said.

00:40:21.620 --> 00:40:23.069 Mira Brancu: exactly what you just said.

00:40:23.070 --> 00:40:42.600 Michelle Warner: So that's how you do it in the right order. Right? Step one that everybody loves to skip, step one here would be. Let's take the different groups of people, bought them on the continuum. What type of communication do they need? Right? And and I would do. I do the same thing with my customers. Who are your customers? Where do they lie on on the marketing continuum? Given what we have.

00:40:42.600 --> 00:40:44.229 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and you can also think.

00:40:44.230 --> 00:40:48.390 Michelle Warner: That continuum rest falls into place. You can now pick strategies.

00:40:48.550 --> 00:41:04.239 Mira Brancu: That's right. You could think about this as a change management strategy. If if it's too sort of like overwhelming, or you're not connecting to the word marketing, mix, or strategy. You can think about this either as communication.

00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:14.680 Mira Brancu: Simple enough. Right or change management change management is all about the people processes, the con conversations that need to happen

00:41:14.690 --> 00:41:19.490 Mira Brancu: and in what way, so they're on board. Align get it.

00:41:20.350 --> 00:41:22.960 Michelle Warner: 100%. It's the exact same process.

00:41:23.050 --> 00:41:39.690 Michelle Warner: And then that's where you know. Right at the beginning, I was saying, the biggest issue is, people aren't making decisions in the right order. And once you understand where everyone is in that alignment, then it's really easy to make your decisions in the right order, because you're starting at the Fifth level. Y, right? You're starting down at that root

00:41:39.730 --> 00:42:05.710 Michelle Warner: root cause or root root foundation. In this case you don't really have a problem yet. But root foundation. You're starting there by plotting everybody, and then you can layer on top instead of what I could imagine happens because it's what happens with my clients. You just start throwing strategies out there, right? My clients would be prone to just say, Oh, I'm gonna start writing more newsletters. I'm gonna start listing on social media, whereas, you know, folks in leadership might be prone to say, oh, we'll just

00:42:05.740 --> 00:42:14.270 Michelle Warner: have another, you know, round table, or we'll just we'll just send out another email. And it's like, No, stop. Let's let's get down to the foundation first.

00:42:14.270 --> 00:42:18.095 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Now, let's let's bring this to E, an even more personal level.

00:42:18.390 --> 00:42:18.780 Michelle Warner: Yeah.

00:42:19.205 --> 00:42:39.620 Mira Brancu: One of the things that I also talk with leaders about is not all leaders are the sort of like out there, extroverted, charismatic, shaking everybody's hand, holding the babies, kissing the babies. Blah! Blah blah, right? Some people are just more thoughtful, methodical, careful analytic.

00:42:39.780 --> 00:42:42.480 Mira Brancu: you know. Those kinds of things. And so

00:42:42.830 --> 00:42:44.989 Mira Brancu: I often talk with leaders about like

00:42:46.370 --> 00:42:52.119 Mira Brancu: if you're by yourself. Okay, you might need to be all things to all people. But usually

00:42:52.160 --> 00:43:15.140 Mira Brancu: there's a way to bring out your very best and have your style. You know. Be front and center in the way that you communicate in the way that you connect with people. And if if one thing just doesn't make sense or connects to you, they will know people read that you're uncomfortable, and then they'll be uncomfortable, and then they won't buy in. But it's because they're reading that you're not bought into the

00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:19.159 Mira Brancu: way that you're communicating. I'm I'm curious for you

00:43:19.390 --> 00:43:25.199 Mira Brancu: when you're talking with small business owners. Often they might be the only ones.

00:43:25.370 --> 00:43:30.424 Mira Brancu: What if their personality style doesn't match a kind of

00:43:31.010 --> 00:43:50.550 Mira Brancu: way. And and you know, a a way to market. And I noticed that we're actually reaching an ad break. So I'm gonna drop that little seed for us to talk about after the ad break. You're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mayor Broncu and our guest, Michelle Warner, and we'll be right back in just a moment.

00:45:55.430 --> 00:46:01.419 Mira Brancu: Welcome welcome to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mirabu and our guest, Michelle Warner. Now.

00:46:01.580 --> 00:46:15.450 Mira Brancu: when we were reaching an outbreak, we were starting to get into some really needy stuff about what if our personalities don't quite match our marketing efforts? What do we do? Michelle got any tips, ideas.

00:46:15.660 --> 00:46:35.619 Michelle Warner: Yeah, this is also a conversation that comes up at that stage when we get it down to the component parts. Because I talk about something called product market founder fit when you're working with really small businesses. So in the startup world, we talk a lot about product market fit, right? Your product has to be wanted by the market. Well, product market founder fit means the founder actually wants needs to want to do these things as well.

00:46:35.620 --> 00:46:36.270 Mira Brancu: Mmm.

00:46:36.270 --> 00:46:57.349 Michelle Warner: So we get to that component stage. And we are looking at a product mix and a customer base that actually is an alignment with dancing on Tiktok cause. There are plenty of businesses that are. I always make a joke about it, but there's plenty of businesses that are in alignment with that, and I have a shy, introverted, uncomfortable founder. We're gonna have to have a conversation about that.

00:46:57.350 --> 00:47:14.140 Michelle Warner: And because, same as you know, you talking to your team if you're trying to show up and market in a way that is not in alignment with your personality, it is going to be really really tough in the super small business world, cause you can't hide behind a brand or marketing team or a whatnot.

00:47:14.230 --> 00:47:42.329 Michelle Warner: And so sometimes we do. This is actually relatively uncommon, because I think people tend to auto correct into the into the right types of businesses. But we will sometimes have that conversation of Hey, this is the model you in theory, prefer. You're gonna have a really tough time pulling off that marketing. And so we might actually need to look at the other side of that marketing continuum and look at something for you. That's much more in alignment with relationship marketing which tends to be much more comfortable for for introverts.

00:47:43.480 --> 00:47:44.410 Mira Brancu: I

00:47:44.680 --> 00:47:48.590 Mira Brancu: love that this is where we ended here, because

00:47:49.470 --> 00:47:55.300 Mira Brancu: one of the things that I work so much on is

00:47:55.740 --> 00:47:59.780 Mira Brancu: the issue about how we define leadership

00:47:59.930 --> 00:48:01.839 Mira Brancu: and that they're really.

00:48:02.160 --> 00:48:05.230 Mira Brancu: we often get only one definition

00:48:05.430 --> 00:48:09.740 Mira Brancu: of quote unquote what successful leadership looks like. And unfortunately.

00:48:10.160 --> 00:48:14.099 Mira Brancu: it's been defined over the years using a

00:48:14.360 --> 00:48:18.409 Mira Brancu: model based on men who have led organizations

00:48:18.460 --> 00:48:20.760 Mira Brancu: in, you know, over decades.

00:48:21.370 --> 00:48:24.850 Mira Brancu: and that keeps women from being seen

00:48:25.180 --> 00:48:28.979 Mira Brancu: as leaders of those organizations as potential leaders.

00:48:29.300 --> 00:48:33.549 Mira Brancu: It keeps women from even seeing themselves

00:48:33.600 --> 00:48:42.110 Mira Brancu: as potential leaders in leadership roles or wanting to see themselves in leadership roles because

00:48:42.300 --> 00:48:46.039 Mira Brancu: they're only getting one message, and the reality is.

00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:55.360 Mira Brancu: not only can you be a great leader with lots of different kinds, you know, personality styles and work styles and be really successful. But

00:48:55.490 --> 00:48:56.639 Mira Brancu: a lot of

00:48:56.850 --> 00:49:00.670 Mira Brancu: what we're realizing now is there's

00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:02.769 Mira Brancu: better ways to lead

00:49:02.930 --> 00:49:05.020 Mira Brancu: in today's world

00:49:05.120 --> 00:49:13.609 Mira Brancu: than the old models. Maybe the old models fit just fine before. But right now, when we have incredible amounts of complexity.

00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:17.820 Mira Brancu: a lot of volatility in the market and in industries.

00:49:17.960 --> 00:49:21.670 Mira Brancu: a lot of crises, nonstop without respite.

00:49:21.990 --> 00:49:43.039 Mira Brancu: and a lot of people needing much more support around mental health and wellness and flexibility. Diversity, that is a different. It requires a different leadership, skill, set and interest a very relational one, by the way. A very collaborative one, by the way, and

00:49:43.230 --> 00:49:56.579 Mira Brancu: that hasn't always been valued or communicated that it has been a value. And yet it's incredibly powerful and successful and effective right now. And so part of it is

00:49:56.750 --> 00:50:13.660 Mira Brancu: working through on learning what we assume to be successful models and learning what actually is successful for us. And where are we pulled to? That is a great fit for us. So I've got some leaders who

00:50:14.050 --> 00:50:15.210 Mira Brancu: would be.

00:50:15.270 --> 00:50:43.189 Mira Brancu: you know, great at calming a very chaotic environment, but maybe are not visionaries. Well, you don't need a visionary trying to change up an entire system when the system needs to be calmed. That's for, you know, that's for people who can do that right. So there's just a lot of connection between what you just said in connecting what founders need to do for the, you know, recognizing their very best, and how to connect the product market. Love that.

00:50:43.820 --> 00:50:53.629 Michelle Warner: I love it, too, and I run into the same thing with my founders. Relationship marketing isn't talked about a lot because it's behind the scenes. You don't see it. You see the louder traffic marketing and.

00:50:53.970 --> 00:51:07.929 Michelle Warner: Same experience. I have founders who crave that type of business and have never seen examples of it, so they don't realize how successful it should be, and I love bringing it to light and showing them like it's possible. And you don't have to have that that big personality.

00:51:08.340 --> 00:51:09.469 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Yeah.

00:51:09.810 --> 00:51:16.980 Mira Brancu: So what is one thing that you out of all of the things that we talked about? What's one thing that you would like people to take away from today.

00:51:17.380 --> 00:51:34.570 Michelle Warner: Oh, my gosh! Take a breath! Do the 5 wise do whatever you need to do when you're confronted with something, and let's look for the root issue before you get into trying to solve any problem. Because if you find that root issue, everything else falls into place, and that a lot of the questions aren't nearly as hard as you think. They are.

00:51:35.030 --> 00:51:46.179 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And if they're thinking, I don't even I still don't even know where to start, or I've done the 5 wise on myself, and now I feel like I need a little bit more help or assistance.

00:51:46.512 --> 00:51:49.619 Mira Brancu: How can they find you? What can they find about you?

00:51:49.870 --> 00:52:11.750 Michelle Warner: Yeah, you can find me over at the Michelle There's a be in front of my name. And you can hang out with me there. Or I talk a lot about this stuff on my new podcast sequence over strategy, there's actually a whole episode on the 5 wise, and I would welcome everyone to come over and subscribe to that show and and and check it out because I'm breaking down kind of these decision making parameters in, in every episode.

00:52:12.120 --> 00:52:22.389 Mira Brancu: Excellent, and I'm going to admit right now that I did take one of Michelle's courses networking that pays. It was fantastic. It

00:52:22.520 --> 00:52:24.950 Mira Brancu: blew my mind that

00:52:25.160 --> 00:52:48.870 Mira Brancu: I could actually lean into my introverted relational self and be successful. And that was you know exactly what I needed at the time I'm gonna for those of you who are watching right now live or watching this recording later on. I'm also showing you her website right now, the THE.

00:52:49.190 --> 00:53:09.182 Mira Brancu: Michelle, with 2 l's. Warner, WARN, Just so you find the right person. This is this is her. She's got so many options around networking that pays training boot camps. Actually took your book boot camp, too. I think it was so good

00:53:09.650 --> 00:53:23.770 Mira Brancu: monthly table talk and things like that you can find out all about. And then here's information, about her new podcast so that you can learn a little bit more dive even more deeply than what we did today.

00:53:24.470 --> 00:53:24.810 Michelle Warner: Yeah.

00:53:25.182 --> 00:53:29.650 Mira Brancu: Anything else that people should know before we start closing out.

00:53:29.950 --> 00:53:32.030 Michelle Warner: No other than thank you for having me.

00:53:32.200 --> 00:53:45.000 Mira Brancu: Absolutely. So. Audience, what did you take away today? And more importantly, what is one small change that you can implement this week, based on what you learned from Michelle.

00:53:45.080 --> 00:53:47.299 Mira Brancu: Share it with us on Linkedin.

00:53:47.380 --> 00:54:09.060 Mira Brancu: at Mirabuku and Michelle Warner. That's where we live online. Now talk. Radio. Nyc is everywhere. It's on Facebook, it's on Instagram, it's on Twitter. It's on twitch. I have some of those as well. Linkedin is where I live online. I suspect that's where Michelle lives online. So that's where we will respond and cheer you on.

00:54:09.320 --> 00:54:15.809 Mira Brancu: In addition to being a live show, we are on apple podcasts and on spotify.

00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:27.000 Mira Brancu: Please go, subscribe to the podcast leave a review and share with us, and share with others as well to help increase our visibility, our reach and our impact.

00:54:27.250 --> 00:54:38.250 Mira Brancu: That's how you help us market. Right? That's how you help us communicate with other people. So the stuff we talk about on the show is part of our research based strategic leadership, pathway model

00:54:38.330 --> 00:54:50.509 Mira Brancu: that we teach in our tower scope, Leadership Academy, which is a private coaching and learning community for socially conscious leaders in healthcare, academia, tech and stem industries, looking to make a greater impact.

00:54:50.920 --> 00:54:53.400 Mira Brancu: to learn more and apply

00:54:53.460 --> 00:54:56.830 Mira Brancu: check us out@www.go

00:54:57.030 --> 00:54:59.799 Mira Brancu:

00:54:59.860 --> 00:55:24.809 Mira Brancu: and click on Leadership Academy. And just so, you know, we are opening applications in July. But you can still check us out, you can still prepare. You can look under the faqs. The questions and you can learn how to get some institutional support if you're seeking it. Now go ahead and start preparing for that application. Now, okay.

00:55:25.600 --> 00:55:29.510 Mira Brancu: thank you. To talk radio to Nyc for hosting

00:55:29.930 --> 00:55:56.820 Mira Brancu: and before we go. I'm gonna just share one last piece of information. I'm gonna pull up my book chapter here just so that you can sort of hear all of the different places that you can land if you did, the 5, wise as an a high, achieving, driven woman who is getting stuck yourself so some of the ones that I have are

00:55:57.180 --> 00:56:01.439 Mira Brancu: overvaluing, pleasing all people over, pleasing ourselves.

00:56:02.090 --> 00:56:04.540 Mira Brancu: serving others without boundaries.

00:56:05.030 --> 00:56:08.780 Mira Brancu: achieving more, without eliminating anything.

00:56:09.140 --> 00:56:11.810 Mira Brancu: overvaluing perfection over progress.

00:56:12.020 --> 00:56:17.400 Mira Brancu: overvaluing overdoing everything versus strategically dividing one's energy.

00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:21.009 Mira Brancu: nurturing others' vision over nurturing our own

00:56:21.640 --> 00:56:26.198 Mira Brancu: confusing, pacing urgency and time with value.

00:56:27.200 --> 00:56:33.940 Mira Brancu: Believing and valuing the majority or popular worldview about what's worthy as more accurate or important than our own.

00:56:34.090 --> 00:56:38.639 Mira Brancu: Assuming we have more ability to impact a system than we actually do.

00:56:38.650 --> 00:56:41.450 Mira Brancu: and the addiction of saying, yes.

00:56:41.670 --> 00:56:46.790 Mira Brancu: I might share more about that in the future. But you can see now this deep

00:56:46.990 --> 00:56:51.629 Mira Brancu: stuff when you do a root, cause analysis. The way that Michelle described.

00:56:51.820 --> 00:56:52.690 Mira Brancu: So

00:56:53.100 --> 00:56:59.020 Mira Brancu: reach out to us if you're looking for some support in either direction with your business or your leadership.

00:56:59.140 --> 00:57:09.829 Mira Brancu: Thank you again to everybody. I am Dr. Mira Broncou, the host of the Hard Skill show. Thank you for joining us today with our guest, Michelle Warner. Michelle. Thank you so much for joining us.

00:57:09.830 --> 00:57:12.620 Michelle Warner: Oh, my goodness, thank you for having me! This is really fun.

00:57:12.620 --> 00:57:16.950 Mira Brancu: Absolutely have a great rest of your day wherever you're tuning in from everybody. Bye.

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