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EPISODE SUMMARY:
Listeners will learn how to maximize their ability to manage the complex "infodemic" of the modern world and what knowledge, skills, and dispositions are needed to be an effective and critical learner.
How can leaders and employees maximize their ability to manage the complex "infodemic" of the modern world? In this episode, we're talking with Dr. Jeffrey Greene about the knowledge, skills, and dispositions needed to be an effective and critical learner in the modern world. We'll also debunk some learning myths and gain practical tips.
Jeffrey A. Greene is the McMichael Professor of Educational Psychology and the Learning Sciences in the Learning Sciences and Psychological Studies program at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. His main area of scholarship involves how to help people become effective, efficient, and critical users and creators of information in technology contexts. He has published over 90 peer-reviewed articles, books, and book chapters on self-regulated learning, epistemic cognition, and online learning, among other topics. He is a Fellow of Division 15 of the American Psychological Association. He was the recipient of the 2016 American Psychological Association Division 15 Richard E. Snow Award for Early Contributions. Currently, he is co-Editor of Educational Psychologist, with Dr. Lisa Linnenbrink-Garcia. Dr. Greene holds a Ph.D. in Educational Psychology, as well as a Master’s degree in Measurement, Statistics, and Evaluation, both from the University of Maryland. He has BA in Psychology from Carleton College in Northfield, Minnesota.
https://ed.unc.edu/people/jeffrey-a-greene/ ; @jeffgreene@mastodon.social, linkedin.com/in/jeffrey-greene-2047b78, @jeffgreene.bsky.social, instagram: jeffgreenelearn, substack: Jeff Greene ; https://www.routledge.com/Self-Regulation-in-Education/Greene/p/book/9781138689107
In this episode of The Hard Skills, Dr. Brancu is joined by Dr. Jeffrey A. Greene, professor of Educational Psychology and the Learning Sciences in the Learning Sciences and Psychological Studies program at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. In this podcast episode, they will discuss the knowledge needed to be an effective critical learner in the modern world, debunking learning myths and gaining practical tips. To kick off the conversation, Dr. Brancu reveals that Dr. Greene is her spouse and they discuss their careers in the context of their conversations and how they view learning organizations. In the simplest terms, Dr. Greene views a learning organization as, “an organization that wants to get better at learning.” A group of people that are able to come together to find a problem, come up with solutions, and develop new and creative ideas.
Dr. Brancu and Dr. Greene pick up where they left off right before the first break. They were talking about viewing learning organizations in the same way as the self-determination theory, which in the case of learning organizations seeing people with autonomy being supported and having relatedness and competence. Dr. Greene shares different skills that are necessary in order to have an effective learning organization. In the context of self-regulating effectively, skills can include being thoughtful about what they’re doing, recognizing what they typically do isn’t working and need to make a change, when they have the tools to make that change, and when they slow down and refine their work. In our world today, everything is moving at a fast pace and most people do not take the time to stop, reflect, and refine their work. What Dr. Greene calls, an “infodemic” is when we really don’t take the time to double-check everything before moving on to the next project and a result of the technology tools we have created. This can cause a lot of misinformation in the world and with the power of artificial intelligence and social media, the can cause wrong information to spread fast. To slow down the fast pace of life, Dr. Greene recommends curating the information feeds and deciding what information you need and want to keep. Your brain is a library and we are in charge of what we keep and toss away.
Dr. Brancu and Dr. Greene once again pick up where they left off by discussing dispositions and intellectual virtues. What is an intellectual virtue? Well, they are just “good ways of thinking,” according to Dr. Greene. Some virtues can be a growth mindset, curiosity, need for cognition, and humility. Our society has come to where we have to have confidence in everything that we do or just have limits, when in reality that is just false, and when we use our intellectual virtues, people have a better chance of success. Having a fixed mindset and convincing yourself that you are confident in your answers when in reality that isn’t the case is not the best way to approach leading in uncertainty. Normalizing and publicly admitting that you were wrong can lead to better development for learning organizations and can help to grow and develop a better way of thinking.
To close the conversation on this episode, Dr. Brancu brings up a previous point from the last segment about having a sense of “bravado” or confidence that someone could walk into the workspace knowing all the answers or squashing on other people’s ideas will have different effects. Examples include silencing other people’s experiences, which could help with a potential outcome, and sending a message to the employees that new ideas or making mistakes are unacceptable. In this episode, Dr. Brancu asks Dr. Greene what would be one key thing to take away from this conversation. “People should have faith in themselves,” says Dr. Greene. “People that are rigid, feel the need to be confident all the time, to never show vulnerability, afraid of making a mistake; those people have a lot of work to do.” Having a fixed mindset prevents us from ever growing and it does not allow us to be human. In the long run, people can benefit from learning from our mistakes, taking in other inputs, and allowing ourselves to slow down and refine our work.
00:00:38.020 --> 00:00:55.570 Mira Brancu: welcome welcome to the hard skills podcast and show with me, Dr. Mirabanku, I work with leaders in healthcare, research stem and other technical fields, who want to develop an authentic leadership identity and create a healthy, inclusive workplace environment to retain the best people, doing the best work.
00:00:55.590 --> 00:01:06.590 Mira Brancu: in other words, developing the hard skills needed to make greater impact. Now, this season we are exploring the first stage of my strategic leadership pathway model facing uncertainty.
00:01:06.930 --> 00:01:17.199 Mira Brancu: And today we're talking with Doctor Jeffrey, a green about the knowledge skills and dispositions the work force needs to face an uncertain world.
00:01:17.820 --> 00:01:31.230 Mira Brancu: Now, here on the show. We value evidence based practical practical solutions. So I don't want you watching or listening to this show passively. I want you to reflect deeply. I want you to take notes like I do.
00:01:31.340 --> 00:01:38.319 Mira Brancu: I want you to identify at least one small step to further develop your hard skills muscle.
00:01:38.660 --> 00:01:39.450 Mira Brancu: Now.
00:01:39.720 --> 00:02:00.749 Mira Brancu: speaking of practical solutions. Before I introduce Jeff, I want to remind folks about our new exciting initiative. The Towerscope Leadership Academy or Tla, for short, which is the next step in our social impact vision. It's an affordable, accessible leadership, development, option for women leaders in healthcare, academia and stem.
00:02:00.850 --> 00:02:15.529 Mira Brancu: It is gender inclusive. But is women centred. What does that mean? We welcome all. But if you apply and you get accepted, you need to know that we are focusing on the lived experiences of women and leadership, and how we can all be allies on that journey
00:02:15.720 --> 00:02:21.690 Mira Brancu: if you don't have that experience, don't value it. That's okay. This isn't going to be the right opportunity for you. Then.
00:02:21.940 --> 00:02:33.479 Mira Brancu: okay, so how are we starting this? We're starting by seeking 15 founding members to test out a 9 week. Mini version to learn, grow, give us feedback, help us grow it.
00:02:34.040 --> 00:02:37.569 Mira Brancu: We already have 12 people who have applied
00:02:37.590 --> 00:02:55.039 Mira Brancu: and are accepting folks who meet criteria as they come. So do not wait until the last minute. Friday, September fifteenth, 2,023 is when we are closing these doors, and we have limited opportunities for the interviews. So apply now, if you're watching us live
00:02:55.590 --> 00:03:11.109 Mira Brancu: or the video recording later, you may notice that I have a QR code right here, you can click on it and go straight to our website to learn more, or you can go to www.goerscope.com.
00:03:11.600 --> 00:03:39.739 Mira Brancu: All right. My ad is over. My commercial for me. Me, me is over. I'm gonna introduce Jeffrey. A green doctor. Green is the Mcmichael professor of Educational Psychology and the learning sciences in learning sciences and psychological studies program at the University of North Carolina, at Chapel Hill. That is a mouthful chat. That's a mouthful. This main area of scholarship involves how to help people become
00:03:39.880 --> 00:03:46.600 Mira Brancu: effective, efficient and critical users and creators of information and technology contexts.
00:03:47.150 --> 00:03:55.579 Mira Brancu: He has published over 90 peer reviewed articles, books, and book chapters on self, Regulated learning.
00:03:55.760 --> 00:04:00.460 Mira Brancu: epistemic cognition, and online learning. Among other topics.
00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:13.339 Mira Brancu: he's a fellow of Division 15 of the American Psychological Association. He was the recipient of the 2016 American Psychological Association's Division, 15, Richard E. Snow, Award for early contributions.
00:04:13.620 --> 00:04:20.130 Mira Brancu: Currently he's Co. Editor of the educational psychologist, a journal with Doctor Lisa Lennonbrink Garcia.
00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:34.149 Mira Brancu: and he holds a Phd. In Educational psychology, a master's in measurement, statistics, and evaluation both from the University of Maryland and a Bachelors of Psychology from Carlton College in Northfield, Minnesota. Now
00:04:34.500 --> 00:04:36.799 Mira Brancu: I know Jeff in a special way.
00:04:37.140 --> 00:04:40.519 Mira Brancu: He is also my spouse
00:04:40.890 --> 00:04:44.540 Mira Brancu: bomb drop.
00:04:45.100 --> 00:04:47.809 Mira Brancu: Jeff is an educational psychologist.
00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:49.960 Mira Brancu: but
00:04:50.310 --> 00:04:56.370 Mira Brancu: he also almost went to school for counselling psychology, and I told him he couldn't do that
00:04:56.450 --> 00:05:07.579 Mira Brancu: because that was way too close to what I wanted to study clinical psychology. So, thank goodness, he found a different interest, because I'm not sure where we would be right now
00:05:07.650 --> 00:05:11.610 Mira Brancu: if we would be in the same exact field. We might butt heads a little too much.
00:05:11.650 --> 00:05:13.430 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Can you tell me why you feel that way?
00:05:14.510 --> 00:05:16.569 Mira Brancu: Nice? Nice?
00:05:16.930 --> 00:05:23.460 Mira Brancu: So well, Jeff, nice to have you, Joe. Thanks so much for having me. It's a it's a pleasure to be here.
00:05:23.700 --> 00:05:27.610 Mira Brancu: Yeah. So obviously.
00:05:27.640 --> 00:05:30.269 Mira Brancu: people are gonna want to know what we talk about at home.
00:05:31.730 --> 00:05:38.369 Mira Brancu: That sounds kind of personal. I know we're not going to get that personal but
00:05:38.530 --> 00:05:51.710 Mira Brancu: they might wonder what what is the interaction between educational and clinical and organizational psychology? Because, you know, we we go walking around the block every single night for 30 min. And we don't just talk about the kids
00:05:51.880 --> 00:05:53.730 Mira Brancu: we sometimes
00:05:53.760 --> 00:05:55.109 Mira Brancu: talk about like
00:05:55.190 --> 00:05:58.059 Mira Brancu: big picture interesting
00:05:58.070 --> 00:06:01.430 Mira Brancu: conversations around educational psychology.
00:06:01.700 --> 00:06:08.669 Mira Brancu: learning leaders, clinical and organizational concepts. So let's start there.
00:06:08.790 --> 00:06:14.120 Mira Brancu: What do you think? People would be interested to know about those overlaps
00:06:14.450 --> 00:06:41.569 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): and how we see it? Sure. So you know, when we walk around the neighborhood and talk. You know, we we share about our lives right? And what's happening at work. And you are always very professional and very appropriate. You never use names. You never use identifying information, but some sometimes you talk about. Oh, you know, there's this issue I'm working with, or there's a person I'm working with. And they're having this kind of problem, and often not all the time, but often
00:06:41.610 --> 00:06:42.689 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): to me.
00:06:42.750 --> 00:06:56.699 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): the challenges that leaders are facing in the modern world kind of sound like learning problems. They sound like ways of maybe teachers helping students to understand complex material, or, you know, adopt a more
00:06:56.780 --> 00:07:15.789 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): shall we say open minded approach to learning or helping them feel more self confident? All those things are are foci of what I do in educational psychology. I believe that we all have a big enough brain to do the work that we want to do in our lives, but sometimes we don't know it. And sometimes we need people to help us
00:07:15.790 --> 00:07:34.189 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): understand that and become better learners. And that's what I study. And I think about learning very broadly, I think about organizations. So whether it's a school or a college campus, or a place where people work, that to me is a learning organization. It's an organization that wants to get better at learning.
00:07:34.440 --> 00:07:46.649 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): and wants its people to get better at learning. And so it just seems like when we talk, there's lots of opportunities for me to say, Oh, that kind of reminds me of this theory or that finding. And then we have a really fun conversation. So hopefully, we can recreate that today.
00:07:46.770 --> 00:07:48.819 Mira Brancu: Yeah, you know,
00:07:49.220 --> 00:08:02.029 Mira Brancu: what's interesting is, I think that you and I have different definitions of learning organization. So when you say learning organization. And you think about learning within organizations. What do you think about?
00:08:02.620 --> 00:08:09.079 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): So II think about creating a group of people that together can
00:08:09.390 --> 00:08:11.000 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): identify problems
00:08:11.150 --> 00:08:16.430 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): find good solutions, work together collaboratively, come up with new ideas
00:08:16.860 --> 00:08:31.689 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): and those kinds of interactions. And that kind of ecology, that kind of kind of sphere of collaboration. It's it doesn't come naturally all the time. Very often it has to be grown, it has to be nurtured, it has to be led. And so for me
00:08:31.690 --> 00:08:50.560 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): whether we're talking again about a school, we're talking about an online experience. We're talking about people working remotely, whatever it is. That's a learning organization. And we want the people in that organization to be great learners. And we want the organization as a whole to be a place where great learners want to learn and do the things that they do. So
00:08:50.730 --> 00:09:00.109 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): II think about learning organization as a certain set of kind of knowledge, skills, and dispositions for success, both of the people in the organization and for whatever work they're trying to do.
00:09:01.140 --> 00:09:14.109 Mira Brancu: Okay? So maybe we don't have that different definition. But let me get even. Let me get even deeper into this. Okay? So can you give an example of
00:09:14.150 --> 00:09:18.010 Mira Brancu: when you see
00:09:18.100 --> 00:09:21.320 Mira Brancu: an organization that is like
00:09:21.340 --> 00:09:28.740 Mira Brancu: a learning organization. They're doing the right things like you said. They're finding solutions, new ideas,
00:09:28.780 --> 00:09:33.799 Mira Brancu: nurturing, growing versus one. That isn't. What are. What do you see, as the differences.
00:09:34.680 --> 00:09:35.600 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): So
00:09:35.740 --> 00:09:46.550 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): let me let me make sure I'm understanding. So there's certain qualities, I think, that a good learning organization has, and certain qualities that might not be so helpful. Is that what you're so
00:09:47.630 --> 00:09:53.669 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): good learning organizations? There's a theory called self-determination theory by Ryan in DC. And they talk about how
00:09:53.760 --> 00:10:05.549 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): people's interest, their motivation, their engagement. It's more complicated than just being kind of intrinsically motivated or extrinsically motivated right? There's more to it than that. And
00:10:05.670 --> 00:10:18.809 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): if people are intrinsically motivated about something, they're intrinsically motivated to learn something intrinsically get motivated to go to work and do things that's great. And and we want to kind of leave that alone and let it kind of grow and nurture.
00:10:18.970 --> 00:10:33.839 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): But there are other kinds of extrinsic motivation that are perfectly fine, perfectly adaptable, perfectly productive either in a learning organization or a workplace. And the key to that, the key to the environment is environments that promote autonomy, competence, and relatedness.
00:10:34.190 --> 00:11:03.929 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): So you want people in your environment, your learning organization to feel like they have autonomy. They have some level of choice. They, you know they're valued for what they can contribute. You want them to feel competent. You want them to feel like they have the information skills and materials. They need to be successful. And then you want a a sense of relatedness, and I don't mean, you know, kind of a real kind of lovey-dubby kind of relatedness. But you know there's a cliche in education. Nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care.
00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:15.379 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): And I think that's true. In in learning organizations, too. Right? I mean, people want to feel like, okay, the people here really want me to be successful and value me. So learning organizations that are successful
00:11:15.920 --> 00:11:37.350 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): tend to promote autonomy, competence, and relatedness, and the ones that are less successful are, you know, more controlling, less supportive. You know there are less information and resource rich. So when I look at an organization just within the organization, those are some of the things I look for first. Of course, we have to acknowledge that
00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:48.169 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): some organizations. because of where they sit. Social culturally don't have access to the resources or aren't given the kinds of things that they need to be successful from the outside. That's a whole different matter. But
00:11:48.430 --> 00:11:59.610 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): inside the organization, one of the first things I look at is, do people feel like they have a positive sense of autonomy, competence, and relatedness. And is that feeding positive kinds of motivation
00:12:00.760 --> 00:12:29.019 Mira Brancu: that's awesome. And I'm going to ask you to dig into each of these in a second. But let me sort of share how I'm thinking about learning organizations, and whether that connects to what you're saying, or it's a little bit different. So when I think about it, I think about Amy Edmondson's work on psychological safety and learning organizations within large complex systems. Usually she's written a lot about
00:12:29.530 --> 00:12:49.520 Mira Brancu: highly fast paced environments like healthcare er you know, firefighting that kind of thing. And her book teaming. And in that book she sort of contrasts learning organizations where organizations are set up to learn versus learn organizations that are set up to execute.
00:12:49.660 --> 00:13:14.980 Mira Brancu: and the ones that are set up to execute are often a command and control. They're individualistic in that each person works in a silo. You don't work on a team. It's not team based. You don't necessarily care about or lean into feedback giving and taking helping relationships. And learning and iterating.
00:13:15.400 --> 00:13:26.460 Mira Brancu: It's more like sort of producing some known outcome. And that means it minimizes innovation.
00:13:26.660 --> 00:13:33.169 Mira Brancu: And it minimizes the opportunity to continuously improve
00:13:33.250 --> 00:13:36.729 Mira Brancu: processes because you have a set process in mind.
00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:52.559 Mira Brancu: I'm connecting that a little bit to you know the relatedness piece, maybe right? Like the sort of helping relationships supporting each other. Seeing it, as you know. Maybe some shared decision making processes. Things like that.
00:13:52.590 --> 00:13:54.410 Mira Brancu: Maybe
00:13:54.490 --> 00:14:14.630 Mira Brancu: developing autonomy and competence in that over time. If you support people in the right way, they will sort of have new ways, new ideas that they can offer. And if you're sort of psychologically safe environment, you're able to take in those new ideas and iterate and innovate. Is that how you're thinking about it, too?
00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:33.610 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Yeah, I mean, this is one of those times, right? If we were walking around the neighborhood, I'd say, yeah, there's like a clear connection here, right? And there's there's a lot of overlap. The analogy I would make is, I think you know, some people think education is what we call drill and kill right like. Make sure students have all the knowledge, make, you know, feed it into their brain, and then get in the space
00:14:34.150 --> 00:15:01.349 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): to correct and move on. That's not education, right? That's kind of the production line model, which is kind of what I heard and what you were describing. We want students to be inquirers. We want them to be thinkers. We want them to be, as I said, identifying cool problems that haven't been solved yet and have the knowledge, skills, and dispositions to take those on. Do they need knowledge? I mean, absolutely right. You can't become an expert. You can't be good at some without knowing things, and we don't want students to discover everything that we've already learned.
00:15:01.350 --> 00:15:06.780 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): We want. We want to give them a good set of knowledge, but then also give them a great set of skills and dispositions
00:15:06.780 --> 00:15:20.189 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): to be the kind of innovators that are in the kind of learning organization that you described. So II think there's a lot of connections there, and the ways in which we help students or people in the workplace do that. I think I think there's a lot of connections.
00:15:20.310 --> 00:15:43.370 Mira Brancu: Awesome. Okay, we are gonna dig into this. But we are nearing an outbreak. So everybody stay tuned. You're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mirabranku and our guest, Dr. Jeffrey Green. The hard skills airs live every Friday at one pm, Eastern time. You'll find us on Linkedin or youtube@talkradio.nyc. And we'll be back with our guest in just a moment.
00:17:49.430 --> 00:18:13.140 Mira Brancu: welcome welcome back to the hard skills I'm here with Dr. Jeffrey Green from Unc. He's an educational psychologist and professor at Unc. And if you bear with me, I'm gonna share my screen so that you can see his page if you go to ed.edu
00:18:13.760 --> 00:18:28.540 Mira Brancu: backslash people backslash Jeffrey dash a dash green. You can see us page there if you're interested in some of the programs that he oversees and his research
00:18:28.730 --> 00:18:33.669 Mira Brancu: and everything about him. And read more about his work.
00:18:34.210 --> 00:18:35.180 Mira Brancu: Okay.
00:18:35.800 --> 00:18:52.479 Mira Brancu: alright. So let's get back to where we left off. Which is that we agreed that we sort of see learning organizations in the same way. We might have different words. For what we apply. Some of these 2
00:18:52.600 --> 00:19:03.160 Mira Brancu: and you were talking about self determination, theory, and how it includes autonomy, competence, and relatedness, that when you see
00:19:03.410 --> 00:19:14.359 Mira Brancu: an organization that is running as a learning organization. You see, people with autonomy supported. You see, relatedness. And you see
00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:15.570 Mira Brancu: competence.
00:19:15.590 --> 00:19:18.470 Mira Brancu: But you also started mentioning
00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:30.469 Mira Brancu: but there are some skills and dispositions that are necessary to be able to have this sort of effective learning organization. Can you share more about like
00:19:30.490 --> 00:19:37.089 Mira Brancu: what? What those look like. What do we want to sort of see and engender in employees and within leaders?
00:19:37.220 --> 00:19:40.810 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Sure. So in terms of skills, I mean.
00:19:41.110 --> 00:19:51.299 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): II study self-regulation. So of course, I think it's really really important. But II do think it's pretty darn important. So when people are able to be thoughtful about what they're doing
00:19:51.780 --> 00:19:56.570 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): when people are able to recognize when what they typically do
00:19:56.820 --> 00:20:09.769 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): isn't working for them. And they need to make a change when they have the tools to make that change when they're able to kind of slow themselves down and reflect and refine their work. Those are people that are self regulating effectively.
00:20:10.300 --> 00:20:17.159 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): and those people tend to be more successful in complex and uncertain tasks and situations. So you know.
00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:34.649 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): all of us have autopilot. Autopilot's a good thing right? I don't wanna think deeply every morning about what I'm gonna wear to work. I don't wanna think deeply about how to drive. I wanna kind of be on autopilot. That's a good thing. But in a learning organization we need people that recognize when autopilot's not working.
00:20:35.190 --> 00:20:43.850 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): That's self regulation. Now, recognizing that just isn't enough, though you need to have the skills to diagnose what's wrong.
00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:45.590 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Make a plan.
00:20:45.820 --> 00:20:50.810 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Try some new strategies monitor. How well those strategies are
00:20:51.130 --> 00:21:13.040 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): helping you get back on track, and then, when it's all done, reflect so that next time you encounter the same situation, you remember. Oh, I got to shut off autopilot. And I have to do these other things. So self-regulation really is a set of skills about being thoughtful about being active and allowing yourself the opportunity to pivot when you need to, when autopilot isn't working.
00:21:14.010 --> 00:21:34.030 Mira Brancu: I love this because I have totally different words for the same things. So in our, in our world, in the world of organizational development. We would say, self regulation involves self awareness and self and reflection. There are
00:21:34.090 --> 00:21:53.050 Mira Brancu: tons of leadership development programs and team development programs that do just this help leaders slow down. take stock, evaluate, understand themselves better, understand what they bring to the table, understand how it affects other people, understand other people and dynamics and
00:21:53.120 --> 00:22:00.510 Mira Brancu: And then, you know, also reflect which. What we've learned is that out of all of the things that leaders do.
00:22:00.610 --> 00:22:03.540 Mira Brancu: reflecting on their process
00:22:03.810 --> 00:22:13.250 Mira Brancu: and iterating and improving, is one of the most important things. And yet, right now it's harder than you know, more more hard than ever before
00:22:13.270 --> 00:22:20.870 Mira Brancu: to slow down and reflect. And that's for everybody like that's not just for leaders that's like for all of us, right with all of our technology and
00:22:21.030 --> 00:22:41.330 Mira Brancu: and then the the skills require. Like to diagnose plan. You know, try things out and reflect. That's an iterative process. We call it continuous improvement, right? Especially in the world of healthcare and and even in like lean you know 6 sigma stuff like that.
00:22:41.450 --> 00:22:46.209 Mira Brancu: and that is also more important than ever before.
00:22:46.220 --> 00:22:50.509 Mira Brancu: Because you can't
00:22:51.730 --> 00:22:55.189 Mira Brancu: you you can't adjust
00:22:55.300 --> 00:23:04.539 Mira Brancu: you know, and iterate. If you have, let's say, like a 5 year plan, that you have decided you're not going to steer.
00:23:04.810 --> 00:23:30.480 Mira Brancu: you know, off course, that maybe that was like realistic, like 10 years ago, to have your 5 year strategic plan. But these days things things change a lot. And one of the things that you mentioned recently to me is the infodemic world. Tell us more about, like how this relates to the infidemic world the complexity that we're facing now.
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:58.700 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Yeah. So II love that connection. And I really like what you said about leaders. And you know the need to slow down cause. It can be really hard to slow down right? It can be really hard when there's so much happening. And you have so much work to do, whether you're a student or you're a leader or you're someone in organization for someone to go. You know what you need to stop doing all that work and spend a lot of time reflecting and refining. It's gonna be like, that's you're just watching the world. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So. But unfortunately, that's our world. Now our world is such that
00:23:58.700 --> 00:24:20.010 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): there's so much information that it has led to what the World Health Organization's Director general calls. And if odemic, so that word first came about during COVID-19, as all the misinformation and disinformation came out. It was like a pandemic of bad information. And so it wasn't.
00:24:20.330 --> 00:24:25.160 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): You know, the really challenging thing about today's world? Among other things is that
00:24:25.220 --> 00:24:30.830 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): information used to be kinda like, hard to generate and hard to distribute right, like you had to.
00:24:31.270 --> 00:24:45.209 Mira Brancu: If you wanted to get your message out to people, you had to be a journalist or a, you know, a TV reporter or something. Yeah, write a letter to the editor. Right? Yeah, exactly. Post things around town on telephone polls. So
00:24:45.230 --> 00:25:08.750 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): you know it it was. And therefore it was relatively easy for people to kind of know what sources were useful and which ones were not right like I don't like. Do you remember, like in the grocery store like to be standing in line. Remember, when we went to the grocery store before we people bring our groceries to us, but like you'd stand in line, and there would, I remember, like I was a little kid with my mom. And there was the Daily World News
00:25:08.750 --> 00:25:21.359 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Bat boy like they really liked Bat, boy, do you remember, Bat, boy? It was like this 5 year old kid, with like a bald head and little pointy ears, and like sharp teeth, and it's always like, you know, Bat Boy found in Manhattan, or something like that.
00:25:21.360 --> 00:25:36.429 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): And I remember like asking my mom like, what is Bat boy, and she was like, Don't pay attention to that. That like. That's not a good thing, you know. Pay attention to the Washington Post like. Here's a good newspaper. Here's a bad newspaper, right? That was easy to figure out, and you know it was easy to find people to help you with that.
00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:57.630 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Now AI has made it super easy to generate bad information. I mean, AI will spit out bad information all day for you, and social media makes it really easy to distribute that bad information. So the infodemic is a result of the technology tools that we have created. And it has meant that it's just a lot harder to figure out.
00:25:57.660 --> 00:26:01.049 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): What do I pay attention to? What do I ignore?
00:26:01.120 --> 00:26:18.700 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): How do I control this flow of information coming into me so that I get signal, not noise. That's the infodemic. It's complex, it's uncertain. It's challenging. It's stressful at times. And that's something that we're trying to teach people to learn how to manage
00:26:19.350 --> 00:26:25.149 Mira Brancu: 100,000%. The
00:26:25.370 --> 00:26:27.249 Mira Brancu: leaders that I work with.
00:26:27.460 --> 00:26:35.329 Mira Brancu: It's one of their number one request, especially the executive leaders, that I work with. There's a lot of challenges at other levels of leadership. But
00:26:35.350 --> 00:26:46.569 Mira Brancu: at the executive level level this is the thing that comes up the most especially within the healthcare, academic and research worlds that I work with.
00:26:46.810 --> 00:26:53.029 Mira Brancu: is, I want to be more strategic. I got into leadership in order to be more strategic.
00:26:53.250 --> 00:26:58.950 Mira Brancu: and I am finding myself just constantly putting out fires, nonstop
00:26:59.010 --> 00:27:01.020 Mira Brancu: and
00:27:01.060 --> 00:27:10.659 Mira Brancu: and they say that about themselves as individuals and at that level at the at the executive leadership team of hospitals. It's usually a leadership team that feels like that.
00:27:10.930 --> 00:27:14.730 Mira Brancu: that they feel like they can't be strategic.
00:27:14.950 --> 00:27:24.790 Mira Brancu: you know, even though, like it's not realistic anymore to have, like a, you know, 5 to 10 year strategic plan. They do want to be strategic
00:27:24.860 --> 00:27:35.149 Mira Brancu: in their goal setting in their priority setting. And it's really hard when every single thing is pulling at their attention. What is
00:27:35.450 --> 00:27:44.239 Mira Brancu: What is sort of like your beginning thoughts about how to slow ourselves down in order to be
00:27:44.250 --> 00:27:47.259 Mira Brancu: more strategic, to allow the room
00:27:47.390 --> 00:27:50.899 Mira Brancu: and space for strategy to happen.
00:27:51.900 --> 00:28:05.940 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): It's hard. I mean, you know, II I'm not gonna pretend. Yeah, just shut off social media. That's the answer. No, it it is difficult. I do think that
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:07.489 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): part of it is
00:28:07.770 --> 00:28:19.089 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): something I'll call curation, I mean, part of it is like a librarian curates, a library, right? Librarians decide what books to put in their library, and they decide what books to loan out.
00:28:19.150 --> 00:28:43.149 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): And I think people have to be the same way. You've really gotta be careful about what what am I gonna let into my mind? What books am I gonna put in my mental library? And then what am I gonna share right? What books am I gonna share to others? I think we have to be careful about that. I think it's and there's lots of research to show that people sometimes are not very thoughtful about what they share with others, particularly in online and social media. And so that adds to this
00:28:43.270 --> 00:28:56.320 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): glut of information, this infidemic that can really make it hard for people to feel like they have time to slow down. So part of the answer is, Curate, your information fees, because you might have more time than you think.
00:28:56.510 --> 00:29:00.109 Mira Brancu: But you're getting just too much kind of low value information.
00:29:00.140 --> 00:29:04.429 I think there are other pieces that we can talk about that involve
00:29:04.460 --> 00:29:20.710 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): careful thought and certain dispositions towards thinking critically and certain things that we call intellectual virtues, which is just a a fancy term for you know, productive thinking habits and dispositions that can help. But I think the first thing is really
00:29:20.890 --> 00:29:32.650 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): recognizing that there's too much out there to see, hear, know, understand, and making good decisions about what things you let into your life. What books are you allowing into your library
00:29:33.430 --> 00:29:55.339 Mira Brancu: that II love that analogy and connects a lot to boundary setting, you know. A a lot of leaders are are asking for support around like, how do I set boundaries around my time when everybody wants and is clamoring for my time, you know and boundaries around what I'm willing to put my energy and focus into. And
00:29:55.340 --> 00:30:04.549 Mira Brancu: this curation is exactly right. You mentioned dispositions and intellectual virtues. This sounds very meaty, so let's pursue that after the add break.
00:30:04.650 --> 00:30:10.120 Mira Brancu: you're listening to the hard skills with me, Doctor Mirabrancou and our guest, Doctor Jeffrey Green.
00:30:10.210 --> 00:30:14.320 Mira Brancu: The heart Skills airs live every Friday at one PM. Eastern time
00:30:14.330 --> 00:30:20.940 Mira Brancu: you can find us on Linkedin or Youtube at talk radio, Nyc, and we'll be back with our guest in just a moment.
00:32:21.450 --> 00:32:44.650 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Doctor Mirabu and my guest, Doctor Jeff Green. If you're watching this live or recorded, you may have seen some weird facial expressions during this ad break, and 2 things were happening at the same time. Number one. Jeff, who is lovely and watches my back, said.
00:32:44.760 --> 00:32:48.389 Mira Brancu: you know in your intro you said that for the signups
00:32:48.460 --> 00:33:01.239 Mira Brancu: for the Towerscope Leadership Academy. It ends on September fifteenth. I don't think it ends on September fifteenth that already happened in the past. Thank you. That was wrong.
00:33:01.360 --> 00:33:05.640 Mira Brancu: It was that we opened up applications on the fifteenth.
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:16.049 Mira Brancu: But applications are open until this Friday, the twenty-second of September. So Friday, the twenty-second, thank you very much for catching me
00:33:16.110 --> 00:33:17.910 Mira Brancu: and
00:33:18.230 --> 00:33:31.419 Mira Brancu: also his Internet went out. I lost him, I thought, Oh, my God, I don't have a guest anymore. And he came back on. And he's here. So oh, 2 things averted in this
00:33:31.890 --> 00:33:40.929 Mira Brancu: complex, chaotic world of ours. We're here. We're talking about leading through uncertainty. Okay, so
00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:43.409 Mira Brancu: where we left off is
00:33:43.430 --> 00:33:54.239 Mira Brancu: we had already talked about some skills necessary to create a learning organization navigating through uncertainty.
00:33:54.250 --> 00:34:03.119 Mira Brancu: And some of those were self awareness and reflection. And these plan, do study, act, reflect cycles.
00:34:03.320 --> 00:34:12.899 Mira Brancu: But you started talking about now, dispositions and intellectual virtues which sounds
00:34:13.409 --> 00:34:30.910 Mira Brancu: really intellectual. Can you say more about what are these intellectual virtues? Why are they dispositions? Why do we need them originated in philosophy? At least that's where I've seen it.
00:34:30.940 --> 00:34:34.619 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): so intellectual virtues are are simply
00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:36.649 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): good ways of thinking.
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:44.020 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): so productive, helpful, useful ways of thinking. So growth. Mindset is one of them, and
00:34:44.139 --> 00:34:50.139 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): there's been a lot of talk about growth mindset recently, and there's been some controversy about it, and without
00:34:50.230 --> 00:34:52.659 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): getting too deep into it. Here's what I'll say.
00:34:53.090 --> 00:35:10.069 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): the idea of a growth mindset is that people believe that they are capable of improving their performance, their intelligence, and their ability to succeed, and people that have a growth mindset believe that people that have what's called a fixed mindset think they have a fixed amount of capacity or intelligence, and that can't change.
00:35:10.720 --> 00:35:15.179 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): regardless of the debates. It's a good thing to have a growth mindset.
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:21.940 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): It's good to think that you haven't hit your ceiling, that you're capable of more, and that if you work hard.
00:35:22.170 --> 00:35:35.719 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): good things can happen. So that's an intellectual virtue, and we want people to have that. And if people don't have it. We don't blame them. We don't say there's something wrong with them. My guess is that someone or something in the world told them
00:35:36.060 --> 00:35:45.520 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): that they have a limit, or they have a ceiling. So we don't blame people if they have a fixed mindset, we try to help them change that mindset to a growth, one that's intellectual virtue.
00:35:45.860 --> 00:35:47.999 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): another virtue was just curiosity.
00:35:48.030 --> 00:36:05.800 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Right? So, Ted Lasso, it's better to be curious than Judge mental. II think that's not quite his quote, but that's why I remember it from. But that that's really important. And the people who are genuinely curious about things tend to explore them deeper, tend to have more success with complex and uncertain problems.
00:36:06.010 --> 00:36:09.190 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): There's something called need for cognition, which is people that like to think.
00:36:09.380 --> 00:36:24.070 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): And so people that are willing to engage in deep thought. That's a virtue. And then humility. So humility is not often a word associated with intellect, or, you know, work, but it's an important one. So I was talking earlier about the infidemic.
00:36:24.530 --> 00:36:32.000 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): and it's easy for people to get jaded. It's easy for people to feel like you know what there's so much noise out there. I'm just gonna do my own research.
00:36:32.070 --> 00:36:58.560 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): But most of the things that we encounter in the world are pretty complex and plenty on, sir, pretty uncertain, and we have to be humble enough to know when we don't know enough to do our own research, and then we have to be able, like, I said earlier, to find those reliable sources, find those books in our library that we trust and go to them. So growth, mindset curiosity, need for cognition, humility. Those are all virtues, and people that tend to think that way tend to do better.
00:36:59.290 --> 00:37:02.790 Mira Brancu: What I find fascinating about what you said.
00:37:02.820 --> 00:37:09.279 Mira Brancu: is that we get a lot of messages still to this day
00:37:09.330 --> 00:37:15.910 Mira Brancu: that in order to be a competent leader. an effective leader,
00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:23.309 Mira Brancu: that you need to have all the answers. Be very confident in your answers.
00:37:23.710 --> 00:37:30.680 Mira Brancu: Know the answer. and demonstrate
00:37:31.100 --> 00:37:38.170 Mira Brancu: this sort of like bravado, this overconfidence, assertiveness,
00:37:38.380 --> 00:37:46.729 Mira Brancu: e, excessive decisiveness, and what that means from my perspective, as someone who cares about
00:37:47.040 --> 00:37:58.959 Mira Brancu: having available role models that demonstrate different leadership competencies and capacities, and don't perpetuate bad messages about what good leaders are like.
00:37:59.010 --> 00:38:02.380 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): The things that you described
00:38:03.070 --> 00:38:11.390 Mira Brancu: often are underrated right? When when people look at leadership. And when you have those
00:38:11.420 --> 00:38:12.750 Mira Brancu: capacities.
00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:25.900 Mira Brancu: when you like to continuously grow and develop, and you're always questioning and wondering. And you're asking. And you're tentative in your curiosity because you you don't want to necessarily
00:38:25.940 --> 00:38:43.470 Mira Brancu: just like M. Make a leap that you know might affect other people. When you're humble. It's judged as a lack of confidence when, in fact, it's just being wise and thoughtful.
00:38:43.530 --> 00:38:58.379 Mira Brancu: I just sort of I'm curious to see what you think? Yeah. So bravado is a great word. Right? Cause like what you're describing these stereotypes. II just think they're stereotypically like bad masculinity stereotypes right? Like that's fine.
00:38:58.460 --> 00:39:04.760 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): I've I've learned we walk couple of things when we talk so you know.
00:39:05.060 --> 00:39:11.149 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): it's silly to think that you need to have all the answers. You can never be wrong. You always have to be confident. That
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:22.650 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): kind of perspective upon the world is a very close perspective, and you're not gonna learn a lot that way. More importantly, though, leaders that act that way. And I'm gonna include teachers in this cause. Teachers to me are leaders.
00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:25.550 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Teachers that do that also send some really
00:39:25.640 --> 00:39:41.179 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): kind of damaging. Or let's just call them not so great messages to students. Right? You have to be always right. It's bad to be wrong. You should be ashamed when you make a mistake. Those are the exact opposite of a growth mindset. Right? That's telling students.
00:39:41.180 --> 00:39:58.709 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): You should feel ashamed when you are, you know, wrong or make a mistake, and you must be limited in your capacity. So, in fact, teachers and leaders that are able to say, Oh, you know what you have a good point. Let me rethink that that's really great modeling, that that's the kind of thinking that we want in a learning organization
00:39:58.780 --> 00:40:22.269 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): teachers and leaders that recognize when they make a mistake and publicly say, you know what I made a mistake there. I'm gonna try to fix it. Here we go. I'm here. So I'm gonna do it. When they model good responses to mistakes. They normalize mistakes. They help the people in their organization, whether they're people who are working or students to understand that. Okay, mistakes are a normal part of life. Now, we don't want people to be, you know, always making mistakes, and we don't want people to.
00:40:22.270 --> 00:40:30.940 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): always being always allow others to question them ceaselessly. I mean, you do need to be kind of confident what you know and willing to engage in that
00:40:31.250 --> 00:40:51.779 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): argument, and then try to assert your points. But we don't want people to feel like they have to always be confident, assured. Always be right. That's a bad message for the leader. It's a bad message for the people with the leader. And there's a lot of good that can happen when they role model more productive curiosity need for cognition and humility.
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:56.469 Mira Brancu: So yeah, what what are the benefits like? If
00:40:56.930 --> 00:40:59.639 Mira Brancu: in a learning organization.
00:40:59.750 --> 00:41:14.759 Mira Brancu: any, or that means any organization that uses these ideas to develop, grow continuously, improve, have highly effective productive workforce.
00:41:15.500 --> 00:41:19.980 Mira Brancu: in those situations. What could come of
00:41:20.020 --> 00:41:35.049 Mira Brancu: a leader who sends those messages who embodies those messages? Who says it's okay to make mistakes. And it's okay to learn and develop and grow. And I'm especially thinking again
00:41:35.100 --> 00:41:50.630 Mira Brancu: with this theme in mind of leading through uncertainty in uncertain times. Why is this so important? What are the benefits here? What comes out of this? Yeah, great question. I mean, I think you said it right, like it helps people deal with uncertainty and complexity.
00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:58.340 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Uncertain and complex times demand people who are capable of kind of persisting through
00:41:58.410 --> 00:41:59.859 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): not knowing what to do.
00:42:00.430 --> 00:42:12.109 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): not being sure of how to proceed. Questioning their own ideas. Right? That idea of self regulation was about when you have an when you're on autopilot and you recognize this isn't working. I do something differently.
00:42:12.180 --> 00:42:28.960 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Well, it will feel really threatening to someone to self regulate if they feel like if I do anything wrong. I'm gonna be in trouble. And people gonna think I'm no good, or I'm stupid, or whatever the case may be, you want people to have the sense of autonomy, relatedness and competence
00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:44.439 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): to have a growth mindset to try their best and know that I'm gonna self regulate. I'm gonna try something different to handle this problem I've never seen before. If I make a mistake as long as I was doing my very best and trying to get to a good solution. This organization will support me.
00:42:44.980 --> 00:43:03.610 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): and this organization will help me try to be successful. That's the kind of people I want in my organization. And that's the kind of message I would want to le send as a leader. and when you don't send those messages you end up with a very rigid, a very frightened, and probably a far less adept organization that
00:43:03.720 --> 00:43:09.170 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): can't tolerate complexity or uncertainty, and that lack of tolerance.
00:43:09.550 --> 00:43:14.769 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): that leads to a fixed mindset. And that leads to an organization that isn't able to adapt to a changing world.
00:43:15.590 --> 00:43:28.380 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And you just describe what it feels like to be an environment where they value psychological safety and one where they don't so with that in mind.
00:43:28.910 --> 00:43:30.670 Mira Brancu: another Adbrake coming up.
00:43:31.160 --> 00:43:36.860 Mira Brancu: you're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mayor Broncu and my guest, Dr. Jeff. Green.
00:43:37.290 --> 00:43:43.609 Mira Brancu: Hard Skills airs. Every Friday at one Pm. Eastern time we'll be back with our guest in just a moment
00:45:46.960 --> 00:46:07.070 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mirabanku and my guest, Dr. Jeff Green, who also happens to be my spouse, and he knows that if I was listening to this same background music at home, I'd be dancing around in the kitchen. I was about to say, this music is so you it's like 100% you
00:46:07.390 --> 00:46:18.710 Mira Brancu: it's hard to like. Just sit here calmly in this chair when I listen to this music. Yeah, I can tell. Yeah. Yeah. Also. if if you noticed if you're watching, live
00:46:18.920 --> 00:46:30.349 Mira Brancu: or the recording jeff and I were just joking around in the background because he was wondering if people could see us during the ad breaks. And
00:46:30.460 --> 00:46:43.660 Mira Brancu: I said, yes, they can, so he's like, should we do that thing like on talk shows where we, you know. The host and guest whisper to each other. It's a shame we're not next to each other. We can't.
00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:52.640 Mira Brancu: All right. So stop being silly. We're focused here. We we just
00:46:52.870 --> 00:46:56.179 Mira Brancu: we talked a lot about
00:46:56.290 --> 00:47:11.240 Mira Brancu: Skill sets like self awareness, reflection plan. Do study, act, reflect, stuff, dispositions around intellectual virtues. And that got us thinking about like how these virtues
00:47:11.500 --> 00:47:27.509 Mira Brancu: connect with leadership? Identity and how leaders show up, and the effect that it has on a workforce depending on how you show up right. And what I find most intriguing about all of this is that if you show up
00:47:28.240 --> 00:47:37.170 Mira Brancu: in this sort of like bravado way where you insist on assuming that you have all of the answers.
00:47:37.310 --> 00:47:42.439 Mira Brancu: Assuming that there's no other path or other way.
00:47:42.570 --> 00:47:45.239 Mira Brancu: Your ideas are better than other people's.
00:47:45.260 --> 00:47:54.849 Mira Brancu: This sort of overconfidence. Squashing of ideas. It's going to do a couple of things, one is.
00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:57.059 Mira Brancu: It's going to silence
00:47:57.310 --> 00:48:11.089 Mira Brancu: the ideas and experiences of other people in the organization that could actually improve your outcomes and your results. It's going to number 2. Send this message
00:48:11.130 --> 00:48:15.489 Mira Brancu: to the employees, or if you're in a school to the students that
00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:23.740 Mira Brancu: having a a new ideas or new ways of thinking, is not acceptable. Making mistakes is not acceptable.
00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:45.860 Mira Brancu: There's no psychological safety in that kind of situation, but it also keeps innovation and growth from happening, which ultimately is to your detriment, as well as the detriment of the people who are being influenced by you. Right smaller legacy there. By the way, too, in my opinion, in terms of future. So
00:48:45.980 --> 00:48:47.549 Mira Brancu: From all of that
00:48:47.890 --> 00:48:56.389 Mira Brancu: moving forward, what is maybe one key thing that you would like people to take away
00:48:56.510 --> 00:49:10.689 Mira Brancu: from? All of this cause. This is a lot of really good information, but people might be sort of like. where do I even start, you know, with sort of developing the kind of organization that matches this
00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:24.489 Mira Brancu: ideal learning organization, you know. Maybe I've been. I'm a leader that's been, you know, trying. But but I'm sort of faltering, or I'm not sure exactly where to start. What do you? What would you suggest?
00:49:24.850 --> 00:49:35.240 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): They should probably enroll in the Tower, Scope Leadership Academy. You're you're like the my number one associate, Jeff. I see that all the time
00:49:36.300 --> 00:49:37.860 Mira Brancu: I do think.
00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:40.830 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Yeah. So why do you think that. But also
00:49:43.180 --> 00:50:02.929 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): people should have faith in themselves. So people that are rigid like that, people that feel the need to be confident all the time to never show any vulnerability. People that are afraid of making a mistake or having people see them as somehow fallible.
00:50:03.830 --> 00:50:16.679 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Those people have a lot of work to do. Those people are hurting themselves. Those people likely have a fixed mindset. Those people likely don't have a lot of intellectual virtues, and those people are holding back
00:50:16.970 --> 00:50:19.890 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): themselves from the success that they could be having.
00:50:20.170 --> 00:50:24.810 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): So I would really encourage people to embrace
00:50:25.460 --> 00:50:37.500 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): being human, you know. I think there was a period of time where we thought that, you know, good thinkers aren't emotional and they're always in control, and they're rational. The opposite is true
00:50:37.640 --> 00:50:41.209 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): right? You know this. We can't think without feeling.
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:55.120 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): and people that don't know how to understand themselves and their effect upon others are going to have probably negative effects upon themselves and others, and so I would just really encourage them to open up, to
00:50:55.870 --> 00:51:04.160 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): take a chance to show some vulnerability and to ask questions and be curious, because I think
00:51:04.560 --> 00:51:17.409 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): if you are a leader, my guess is that you have some skill. You have some knowledge, you have some capacity. But you're probably limiting yourself if you're adopting this kind of stereotypical, masculine, very closed approach.
00:51:19.750 --> 00:51:30.090 Mira Brancu: That is a powerful message. It's you know it's about vulnerability
00:51:30.300 --> 00:51:35.460 Mira Brancu: asking for help or input that takes a lot of courage
00:51:35.650 --> 00:51:38.909 Mira Brancu: and a lot of self awareness.
00:51:38.950 --> 00:51:47.469 Mira Brancu: and what I take from it is maybe one easy way to start is just to say, Tell me more
00:51:47.620 --> 00:51:50.660 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): is just to hold back your reactions
00:51:51.520 --> 00:51:52.589 Mira Brancu: and just say.
00:51:52.890 --> 00:51:54.919 Mira Brancu: Tell me more, and then
00:51:55.790 --> 00:52:06.829 Mira Brancu: close your mouth and listen, you know. And and also there's there's a piece I heard about empathy as well. Yeah, you know, recognizing
00:52:07.050 --> 00:52:11.740 Mira Brancu: You know, that your perspective may not be matched
00:52:11.830 --> 00:52:19.369 Mira Brancu: by other people's perspectives. It's it's a perspective, it's it's valid. It's valuable. But so are other people's. And they might not
00:52:19.380 --> 00:52:26.820 Mira Brancu: see things the way that you see. And it's really valuable data to ask and take in more information.
00:52:26.890 --> 00:52:29.860 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Than what you have.
00:52:30.410 --> 00:52:51.999 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Yeah, I mean, all of us have blind spots. All of us have things that we don't know. All of us have ways of behaving that maybe aren't so helpful in the moment or in particular context. And I want people around me to help me right? I want them to tell me when that's happening, so that they can help me be better so. I don't know why I would create an environment where people were afraid to tell me that.
00:52:53.840 --> 00:52:55.840 Mira Brancu: Yeah, why would you right?
00:52:56.360 --> 00:53:00.339 Mira Brancu: Who would want to do that? And why would you? But sometimes it does come out of fear.
00:53:00.500 --> 00:53:09.390 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): I think it is. Yeah, I think a lot of it's fear. I mean, you know, our society, unfortunately, still sends a lot of messages about, you know.
00:53:09.510 --> 00:53:33.820 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): Being smart is good. Being smart means that you're quick. You're never wrong. You don't have to think too long. If you have to put any effort in, then there's something wrong with you. Those are all exactly the wrong messages, exactly the wrong messages for particularly for a learning organization that's facing complexity and uncertainty. You're going to have to make mistakes. You're going to be okay with that, you're going to learn how to learn to benefit from mistakes. You're gonna have to
00:53:33.820 --> 00:53:50.700 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): get stuck in the mud for a while and get people around you that can help you think through it. Those are all the things that are necessary to deal with an infidemic, to deal with the modern world, and unfortunately, our society still has these kind of cliche, stereotypical, unhelpful ideas about what it means to be a success.
00:53:50.740 --> 00:53:58.609 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): and for men what it means to be a successful man. And they're just not helpful. They're not useful. And we need to do everything we can to change that message.
00:54:08.120 --> 00:54:29.660 Mira Brancu: Introverts are great. I like it. What's the best way to follow your work.
00:54:30.470 --> 00:54:43.100 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): So there are some social media sites that I am on. You can look for me on there if you just Google, Jeff Green University, North Carolina. You'll find them. Whether it's mastodon, whether it's blue sky. It's
00:54:43.320 --> 00:54:48.410 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): insta cart Instacart, right? I'm thinking about groceries, because it's almost dinner time. Instagram.
00:54:48.790 --> 00:55:05.509 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): you know, Linkedin. But I also host, a podcast so it's a podcast on emerging, research and educational psychology. So if you wanna learn about the latest in the science of learning, you can Google, the American Psychological Association Division 15 Podcasts, i'll pop up.
00:55:05.680 --> 00:55:17.950 Jeff Greene (He/Him/His): And then I also have a sub stack. So I write about learning and new research. The sub Stac name is bemusing so you can look for me there. Those are all places where I try to spread the good word.
00:55:18.260 --> 00:55:24.869 Mira Brancu: Yes is his sub stack for musings is amazing. And I'm not biased. It is really, really good.
00:55:24.940 --> 00:55:26.690 Mira Brancu: Okay, so
00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:37.179 Mira Brancu: many insights here. I hope you all took something away from this. What did you take away? And more importantly, what is one small change that you
00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:41.390 Mira Brancu: listeners can implement this week based on what you learned from Jeff.
00:55:41.650 --> 00:55:52.959 Mira Brancu: Share it with us on Linkedin, at Mirabranku or Jeff Green, or@talkradio.nyc, so we can cheer you on. Actually, what is your handle for for Linkedin, is it, Jeffrey?
00:55:53.790 --> 00:56:07.730 Mira Brancu: You know I'm not really sure. Look him up. Look me up. That's more important. We're also on Facebook, Instagram Twitter Twitch all over the place. But Linkedin is where I live online and where I will respond
00:56:07.770 --> 00:56:21.570 Mira Brancu: as a reminder. Don't forget to apply to the Towerscope Leadership Academy applications are due. September twenty-twond. You see, the QR. Code. If you're watching or go to Www. Dot scopecom.
00:56:21.770 --> 00:56:29.459 Mira Brancu: Join us next Friday, October sixth, with Olivia Notison, where we'll be talking about the leader's journey, her journey
00:56:29.500 --> 00:56:36.960 Mira Brancu: about how she became a global finance tech and strategy leader. Despite uncertainty. You will not want to miss this show.
00:56:37.630 --> 00:56:41.660 Mira Brancu: Thank you. Everyone for listening to talkradio dot nyc.
00:56:42.380 --> 00:56:48.330 Mira Brancu: the hard skills. Airs live Fridays, one pm. Eastern on Fridays.
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