EPISODE SUMMARY:
This week on The Conscious Consultant Hour, Sam welcomes White Owl, ceremony leader, healer, and author of In Service of Ayahuasca: A Medical Doctor’s Journey into an Ancient Healing Tradition.
Working with Amazonian plant medicines since 2005 and leading ceremonies since 2008, White Owl brings together the worlds of modern medicine, psychotherapy, and indigenous healing traditions. Guided primarily by the plants themselves and trained by Peruvian Mestizo Vegetalistas, his path reflects a rare integration of scientific understanding, deep spiritual practice, and decades of lived experience.
Retiring from medicine in 2022, after 36 years as a comprehensive ophthalmologist, White Owl trained in Gestalt Psychotherapy and Emotionally Focused Therapy for couples, maintaining a therapeutic practice alongside his medical career. Over time, his work evolved toward helping people heal not only physically but also emotionally, relationally, and spiritually. Through ceremonies and plant dietas in Peru, as well as gatherings across North America, he has supported countless individuals in exploring expanded states of consciousness with safety, reverence, and integrity.
In this rich and grounded conversation, Sam and White Owl explore what it truly means to work in service of the medicine. Together, they discuss the healing potential of ayahuasca, the responsibilities of ceremonial leadership, and the bridge between Western psychology and ancient plant wisdom. This episode offers listeners an honest and nuanced look into a sacred tradition that continues to awaken, challenge, and transform those called to walk its path.
Tune in and share your own questions and comments about plant medicine on our YouTube livestream or on our Facebook page.
In this episode, Sam opens with a reflective blog post reminding us that the seeds we plant through persistent effort — whether in business, relationships, or personal healing — are quietly growing roots beneath the surface, even when we can't yet see the growth. He then welcomes White Owl, a retired ophthalmologist and ceremony leader with over 20 years of experience in Amazonian plant medicine, who shares how his own journey into ayahuasca began with a mystical experience of universal oneness, followed by a humbling descent into self-confrontation that cracked open his ego and transformed him. White Owl also introduces the practice of the dieta — an immersive 11-day silent retreat in the Peruvian jungle combining ayahuasca ceremonies with teacher plants — as a profound path of deep inner listening, surrender, and spiritual opening.
White Owl shares how his calling to serve the medicine came not through ambition, but through surrender — the plant spirits chose him precisely in the moment he finally released his desire to do the work, teaching him that true service must come from sovereign, freely-given choice rather than obligation. He offers essential guidance for those drawn to this path: genuine inner calling is the first prerequisite, followed by honest assessment of one's mental and physical readiness, and when the time is right, seeking a facilitator who is humble, well-trained, and rooted in the understanding that it is Spirit — not the guide — who does the healing. His book In Service of Ayahuasca was born from a publisher's vision to legitimize this sacred path for a new generation of seekers, and White Owl's hope is that readers feel the living intelligence of the medicine through its pages — a teacher that is unpredictable, deeply interactive, and profoundly transformative for those who approach it with sincerity and reverence.
00:00:40.260 --> 00:00:58.339 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Good afternoon, my conscious co-creators! Welcome to another edition of The Conscious Consultant Hour, Awakening Humanity. I am very, very pleased that you are all here with me today. We have a wonderful guest in store for you.
00:00:58.340 --> 00:01:11.590 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: talking about one of my favorite topics to discuss on the show, that of plant medicine work. We'll bring him on in just a moment, but first, of course, we have my blog post from a couple of years ago, just
00:01:11.670 --> 00:01:23.159 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Taking these in order, and today's blog post is entitled… The rewards come… When we least expect them.
00:01:24.650 --> 00:01:29.969 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We can work at something for a long time, putting a lot of effort into it.
00:01:30.310 --> 00:01:34.049 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Showing up over and over again to do our work.
00:01:35.180 --> 00:01:39.699 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And it may sometimes seem like we are not getting very far.
00:01:40.130 --> 00:01:44.560 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: As if our progress is minimal or non-existent.
00:01:45.050 --> 00:01:50.760 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Day by day, we keep at it and still feel like we are getting nowhere.
00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:54.549 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That is when we begin to doubt ourselves.
00:01:55.110 --> 00:02:03.740 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Is this all just wasted effort? The time, the money, and the energy we are investing seems to be in vain.
00:02:04.420 --> 00:02:07.430 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We may even begin to feel like we should stop.
00:02:07.880 --> 00:02:10.260 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That maybe we made a mistake.
00:02:10.419 --> 00:02:13.580 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And that all this effort is for nothing.
00:02:14.600 --> 00:02:20.699 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: If we do give up, then everything we have done feels like a loss.
00:02:21.620 --> 00:02:23.189 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So we keep going.
00:02:23.650 --> 00:02:28.890 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Not really knowing why we are still putting so much into the venture.
00:02:29.660 --> 00:02:33.510 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yet we continue on the path life has put in front of us.
00:02:33.750 --> 00:02:38.849 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We have faith that somehow, someway, things will work out.
00:02:39.540 --> 00:02:41.970 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Even when we can't see how.
00:02:42.300 --> 00:02:44.309 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So we just keep going.
00:02:44.980 --> 00:02:53.000 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And just when it seems like everything we've done is all about to fall apart, Magic happens.
00:02:53.640 --> 00:02:58.760 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That unforeseen event, or that chance meeting falls in their lap.
00:02:59.220 --> 00:03:03.960 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Seemingly, out of nowhere, that magic event happens.
00:03:04.160 --> 00:03:10.540 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And suddenly… Almost in the blink of an eye, everything changes.
00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:14.399 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: The rewards of our efforts start to show up.
00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:19.840 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We begin to experience something we've been waiting for so long.
00:03:21.230 --> 00:03:23.550 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Everything suddenly makes sense.
00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:27.479 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It is as if the whole world comes into alignment.
00:03:28.060 --> 00:03:32.570 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And now we can reap what we have sown for so long.
00:03:33.210 --> 00:03:37.859 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Perhaps the benefits that come our way start as just a trickle.
00:03:38.540 --> 00:03:41.120 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Not that much to get excited about.
00:03:41.560 --> 00:03:45.219 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yet they are an indication of where things are going.
00:03:45.890 --> 00:03:49.020 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: A changing of the tide in our favor.
00:03:49.340 --> 00:03:56.909 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That started as a trickle… what started as a trickle soon turns into something a little more substantial.
00:03:57.820 --> 00:04:02.079 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: All the while, new opportunities and new rewards
00:04:02.200 --> 00:04:05.850 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Show up in the most unexpected ways.
00:04:06.490 --> 00:04:18.559 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It is hard to believe, for after working for so long, with so little coming back to us, we got used to just putting our effort in without any result.
00:04:19.380 --> 00:04:26.340 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And now that has changed. Now we find ourselves in the position of receiving so much.
00:04:27.420 --> 00:04:32.569 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: The proverbial overnight success that was years in the making.
00:04:33.410 --> 00:04:36.839 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Others only see the results we have received.
00:04:37.200 --> 00:04:42.910 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: They do not remember how long and how much we put into it.
00:04:44.150 --> 00:04:45.360 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But we do.
00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:54.879 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And we know that all that is now coming to us has been on its way for a very long time.
00:04:55.710 --> 00:04:59.659 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So we learn to embrace our newfound riches.
00:05:00.670 --> 00:05:07.369 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: They may not be physical riches, yet they are all the more dear to us regardless.
00:05:07.990 --> 00:05:13.709 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And if they are physical riches, we learn to enjoy them for the prize that they are.
00:05:14.250 --> 00:05:18.429 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We thank life for not letting us give up too soon.
00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:25.029 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: All those who stood by us when times were lean are all given their due.
00:05:25.980 --> 00:05:33.829 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Our hearts are so full with the satisfaction of now living in the abundance we have created.
00:05:34.910 --> 00:05:38.880 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Although it was not so long ago we were doubting ourselves.
00:05:39.280 --> 00:05:41.939 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It now feels like ages.
00:05:42.970 --> 00:05:47.260 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And what joy it all brings to our hearts.
00:05:49.230 --> 00:05:56.159 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So do you have something you've been working on for a long time that you have yet to see the rewards for?
00:05:57.200 --> 00:06:01.390 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: What can you do to give yourself the encouragement to keep going?
00:06:07.060 --> 00:06:14.840 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So… You know, I wrote this a couple of years ago after kind of going through a hard time.
00:06:16.140 --> 00:06:26.950 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And feeling like I was putting so much work into working on myself, And… and… and not really…
00:06:27.540 --> 00:06:30.840 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: feeling like I was getting very far.
00:06:32.690 --> 00:06:37.989 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And You know, when you've been working on things a long time.
00:06:38.510 --> 00:06:44.700 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And you've been putting week after week, month after month, year after year, really.
00:06:44.980 --> 00:06:47.570 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: pouring your heart into something. Now.
00:06:48.260 --> 00:06:53.460 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I'm not just talking about, like, a business or a career.
00:06:54.740 --> 00:06:56.610 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Or a relationship.
00:06:57.340 --> 00:07:04.449 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It could be just the effort we're putting into healing ourselves, into, moving
00:07:04.760 --> 00:07:11.990 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Moving forward on our path, developing ourselves, you know, working on
00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:15.110 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I'm feeling better, on doing better.
00:07:16.840 --> 00:07:20.189 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: The analogy goes across all aspects of life.
00:07:23.270 --> 00:07:31.070 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And so we're putting in the effort, putting in the effort, putting in the effort, And…
00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:37.299 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It can seem like we're putting in all this effort, and nothing is coming back to us.
00:07:38.020 --> 00:07:40.699 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: All this effort is leading nowhere.
00:07:43.070 --> 00:07:48.830 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But what I've learned over the years is… That all that effort?
00:07:49.780 --> 00:07:54.469 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: is, like… Watering that tiny plant.
00:07:55.580 --> 00:07:58.819 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That you barely see a little sprout of.
00:07:59.790 --> 00:08:06.749 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And we keep watering the plant, and fertilizing the plant, and making sure that it has what it needs.
00:08:07.750 --> 00:08:11.440 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But it's barely growing, it's barely doing much.
00:08:12.070 --> 00:08:17.110 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Sometimes if it's just a seed, it's… you don't even see anything above the ground.
00:08:18.370 --> 00:08:23.829 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But over that whole time, all that effort we're putting in, the roots are growing.
00:08:24.350 --> 00:08:26.690 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: The roots under the ground.
00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:30.789 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Are getting bigger and wider and stronger.
00:08:32.470 --> 00:08:37.969 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And those roots need to get stronger before that sprout can come up.
00:08:40.049 --> 00:08:44.269 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And then once that sprout pops up out of the ground.
00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:48.530 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It starts growing faster than we imagined.
00:08:52.610 --> 00:08:55.769 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And that's exactly the way life works.
00:08:58.220 --> 00:09:06.580 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Whether we're starting a new business, or going into a new career, or starting a new relationship.
00:09:06.740 --> 00:09:10.110 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Or, or just working on ourselves.
00:09:12.740 --> 00:09:16.470 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It can feel… So much, like…
00:09:17.050 --> 00:09:23.650 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Oh, you know, I'm putting so much in, and I'm not… I'm not seeing any results.
00:09:25.640 --> 00:09:29.560 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But that's where patience… and persistence.
00:09:30.290 --> 00:09:36.019 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And trusting the process and staying on the path is so important.
00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:48.869 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Because if we give up, if we stop, if we walk away from it, then everything we've put in before…
00:09:49.480 --> 00:09:55.560 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Not that it's wasted effort, But then we don't get to enjoy the fruits of that.
00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:06.500 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And sometimes it takes much longer than we thought to start to see the fruits, to start… to see that sprout coming up out of the ground.
00:10:09.130 --> 00:10:14.120 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And sometimes we do need to adjust. Sometimes we do need to do something different.
00:10:14.380 --> 00:10:17.999 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And not just keep doing the same thing over and over again.
00:10:22.300 --> 00:10:28.580 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But the key is, Are we paying attention to where we're going, where we want to end up?
00:10:29.110 --> 00:10:31.569 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That, that destination on the map.
00:10:34.660 --> 00:10:41.800 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: If we keep leaning in that direction, putting our effort in that direction, whatever that direction happens to be for you.
00:10:42.930 --> 00:10:44.200 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Keep at it.
00:10:44.610 --> 00:10:47.370 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Eventually, we will get there.
00:10:47.670 --> 00:10:55.630 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Maybe not in our timing, maybe not in the way we thought we would, and maybe when we get there, it doesn't look the way we thought it would look.
00:10:57.950 --> 00:10:59.440 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But we will get there.
00:11:01.390 --> 00:11:07.149 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And so… this blog I wrote a couple of years ago.
00:11:07.910 --> 00:11:11.139 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It was really inspired by my own journey.
00:11:11.800 --> 00:11:22.840 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: of feeling like I had been doing so much work on myself, and it not really coming to fruition, and not really seeing the deep change.
00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:25.149 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That I wanted to see in myself.
00:11:27.050 --> 00:11:32.479 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And then… And then suddenly it was there. And then…
00:11:35.050 --> 00:11:39.170 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: You know, beyond my expectation, things shifted and changed.
00:11:40.780 --> 00:11:45.479 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And so I felt it was important to kind of share that lesson.
00:11:45.880 --> 00:11:47.280 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: with everyone.
00:11:48.370 --> 00:11:52.319 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That little bit of encouragement to, hey, like, keep going.
00:11:52.750 --> 00:11:56.970 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Even if it doesn't feel like you're getting very far, keep going.
00:11:59.480 --> 00:12:09.140 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: you never know. Like, that… that… that one shift, that… that one change that you're looking for might be right around the corner, and you don't know it.
00:12:09.730 --> 00:12:13.829 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It might not be. You know, you might still have a long way to go.
00:12:14.060 --> 00:12:15.320 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But it might be.
00:12:17.040 --> 00:12:22.279 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And so… I like to just lean into that possibility.
00:12:22.800 --> 00:12:23.630 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: bet.
00:12:24.820 --> 00:12:29.000 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That moment when everything shifts for us.
00:12:29.340 --> 00:12:31.480 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Is closer than we think.
00:12:32.630 --> 00:12:35.829 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It may have taken longer than we wanted to to get there.
00:12:36.630 --> 00:12:38.469 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But it's closer than we think.
00:12:40.150 --> 00:12:43.710 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So, that's my blog post. It's entitled…
00:12:44.030 --> 00:12:47.939 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: The rewards come when we least expect them.
00:12:48.110 --> 00:12:54.869 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And of course, you can always find my blog at my website, theconsciousconsultant.com.
00:12:54.980 --> 00:13:11.449 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And, on the radio station's website at talkradio.nyc slash blog. And if you like my blog post, hey, you know, I got a book, Everyday Awakening, that has, like, whole bunches of perspectives like this. You'd probably like that, too.
00:13:12.300 --> 00:13:22.730 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: All right. Now, it is my extreme pleasure to welcome to the show White Al, a ceremony leader, healer, and author of…
00:13:22.850 --> 00:13:31.539 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: In service of ayahuasca, A medical doctor's Journey into an ancient healing tradition.
00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:49.509 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Working with Amazonian plant medicine since 2005, the leading and leading ceremony since 2008, so this is not new for this guy, White Owl brings together the worlds of modern medicine, psychotherapy, and indigenous healing traditions.
00:13:49.710 --> 00:14:07.749 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Guided primarily by the plants themselves, and trained by Peruvian Matizo Vegetalistas, his path reflects a rare integration of scientific understanding, deep spiritual practice, and decades of lived experience.
00:14:07.910 --> 00:14:24.959 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Retiring from medicine in 2022, after 36 years as a comprehensive ophthalmologist, White Al trained in gestalt psychotherapy and emotional-focused therapy for couples, maintaining a therapeutic practice alongside his medical career.
00:14:25.030 --> 00:14:35.070 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Over time, his work evolved toward helping people heal not only physically, but emotionally, relationally, and spiritually.
00:14:35.290 --> 00:14:51.329 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Through ceremonies and plant dietas in Peru, as well as guiding gatherings across North America, he has supported countless individuals in exploring expanded states of consciousness with safety, reverence, and integrity.
00:14:51.460 --> 00:14:54.319 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Welcome to the Conscious Consultant, our White Al.
00:14:55.150 --> 00:14:56.470 White Owl: Thank you for having me.
00:14:56.470 --> 00:15:06.050 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure. So, I mean, many people have heard about ayahuasca and plant medicine in the last…
00:15:06.330 --> 00:15:18.390 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I don't know, like, seems like in the last 5, 6, 7 years, it's gotten more and more popular, but you kind of came into this work back in 2005,
00:15:18.390 --> 00:15:26.730 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So that's, like, over 20 years ago now. I'm curious, what brought you to plant medicine work?
00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:35.629 White Owl: Well, you know, I actually had a ceremony even 10 years before that, so it was really…
00:15:35.630 --> 00:15:35.980 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: In the middle.
00:15:36.650 --> 00:15:43.850 White Owl: Mid-90s, and you know, I'm… I think…
00:15:44.470 --> 00:15:51.260 White Owl: I had developed some confidence in, altered states of consciousness, as a means to…
00:15:52.540 --> 00:16:04.369 White Owl: to grow and to learn about myself and the world, and so, I was initially just curious, like, what does this medicine, offer? And,
00:16:04.970 --> 00:16:10.190 White Owl: My first experience offered one of the most boring nights I've ever had.
00:16:11.270 --> 00:16:12.880 White Owl: Nothing happened.
00:16:13.450 --> 00:16:22.079 White Owl: And I think in the room, nothing happened. People said, oh, people will be screaming and crying and vomiting, and it was like a Morgan there, other than…
00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:22.970 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: This…
00:16:22.970 --> 00:16:26.839 White Owl: It seemed like they sang one song for 4 hours, it was…
00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:34.680 White Owl: Christine Gonzalez and Jorge, I forgot his last name, and
00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:37.299 White Owl: And I was just going crazy, and…
00:16:37.740 --> 00:16:45.359 White Owl: so I just didn't really think the medicine was for me, so I just thought, this medicine doesn't work for me, and it didn't really occur to me that
00:16:45.580 --> 00:16:51.120 White Owl: Maybe the medicine wasn't… It wasn't active, or…
00:16:51.300 --> 00:16:59.450 White Owl: that it could be different with a different, Vehatalista. So, that term means people that do healing work with vegetation.
00:17:00.640 --> 00:17:01.740 White Owl: Shaman…
00:17:01.950 --> 00:17:07.700 White Owl: for me, has a lot of baggage, you know, associated with it, whereas no one ever heard of a Vejatalista, so…
00:17:08.609 --> 00:17:15.009 White Owl: I didn't really get back into it until, actually my wife, got into it.
00:17:16.399 --> 00:17:24.339 White Owl: you know, one of our, our mentors, Jose Campos, was coming to the United States, and,
00:17:24.609 --> 00:17:26.879 White Owl: Through a friend of hers,
00:17:27.449 --> 00:17:32.579 White Owl: for a friend of ours, she ended up in a ceremony with Jose, and…
00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:35.319 White Owl: Had a really big experience, and…
00:17:35.840 --> 00:17:43.680 White Owl: at the time, I was exploring the field of natural vision improvement, which is a big field, but the…
00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:52.709 White Owl: The thing that, the part of it that really interests me is how we could use our eyes and our sense of vision to be more present.
00:17:52.860 --> 00:17:53.950 White Owl: I've been,
00:17:54.090 --> 00:18:06.680 White Owl: a student of the present moment, because I was so poor at it, and so I've always been interested in things that are… help me stay in the present moment.
00:18:06.780 --> 00:18:26.469 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And that, you know, kind of leads me to a question I wanted to ask you, which is, had you always had this kind of leaning or interest in sort of personal spiritual development, or was this something that developed later in life? And if it did, like, was there an incident that kind of
00:18:27.390 --> 00:18:29.370 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: What brought your attention there?
00:18:32.530 --> 00:18:33.140 White Owl: Hmm.
00:18:33.560 --> 00:18:38.779 White Owl: Well… Probably like a lot of people who are…
00:18:39.090 --> 00:18:46.890 White Owl: Listening to, to this program, They may have felt… A little different than…
00:18:47.360 --> 00:18:58.009 White Owl: than a lot of the other kids growing up in school, and, very sensitive, you know, I… I was… felt I was very sensitive,
00:18:58.510 --> 00:19:01.569 White Owl: Person, and interested in things that the…
00:19:01.830 --> 00:19:12.140 White Owl: the usual kids weren't interested in, so… and people kept telling me that I… I was special in some way, which,
00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:23.319 White Owl: And I didn't really know what they were talking about, I was just being me, but I think that this sensitivity, you know, is what they were referring to.
00:19:23.670 --> 00:19:25.100 White Owl: And,
00:19:25.840 --> 00:19:31.880 White Owl: You know, and of course it led to ego inflation later in life than I'm still working on.
00:19:31.990 --> 00:19:32.790 White Owl: But…
00:19:33.460 --> 00:19:40.069 White Owl: at least other people felt like there was something, you know, different about me, and… so I think it was really when I,
00:19:40.490 --> 00:19:44.239 White Owl: I got, got initiated in Transcendental Meditation.
00:19:44.600 --> 00:19:47.370 White Owl: In 1970, that…
00:19:47.780 --> 00:19:58.900 White Owl: I became aware of, you know, the possibility of, of different levels of consciousness, and, you know, in TM, they talk about cosmic consciousness, which,
00:19:58.900 --> 00:19:59.680 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: No.
00:20:00.190 --> 00:20:03.200 White Owl: I did not achieve by meditating, but,
00:20:04.300 --> 00:20:23.709 White Owl: That was one of those things that you were talking about, that, you know, striving for, you know, for something that, you know, didn't really happen through transcendental Meditation, although I received lots of gifts. So, I think that was kind of the beginning of that search for expanding my consciousness.
00:20:23.710 --> 00:20:24.350 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm.
00:20:25.660 --> 00:20:34.050 White Owl: So through this, natural vision improvement, well, as I was working with this, I had a,
00:20:34.180 --> 00:20:40.939 White Owl: A psychic reading. The psychic use the tarot as a basis of a reading.
00:20:41.770 --> 00:20:47.769 White Owl: But then she would go on from there, and she said, you know, for you to do this work in natural vision improvement, you're going to need
00:20:48.230 --> 00:20:53.070 White Owl: To work with the spiritual realm in a way that you're not familiar with, and…
00:20:53.300 --> 00:20:58.239 White Owl: She looked at the cards, she said, you should check out shamanism, I think there's something there for you.
00:20:59.930 --> 00:21:17.799 White Owl: So, that was actually what brought me to ayahuasca, that my wife and others said, you know, this medicine can open one up spiritually. And I didn't even really know what that meant. It's still hard for me to put into words what that means to be
00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:23.900 White Owl: Open spiritually, or to be a spiritual… being,
00:21:24.380 --> 00:21:31.510 White Owl: But it sounded good, and so that was actually why I… I jumped in to, to be able to…
00:21:32.690 --> 00:21:41.159 White Owl: have this connection with the spiritual realm to do this other work, and I think, really, in that first ceremony with Jose,
00:21:41.840 --> 00:21:44.130 White Owl: I was…
00:21:46.090 --> 00:21:53.120 White Owl: enchanted, you know, by this work. I was gifted with one of those mystical experiences, you know.
00:21:53.120 --> 00:21:53.590 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Oh.
00:21:53.630 --> 00:21:56.999 White Owl: At the beginning, that song that you played at the,
00:21:57.120 --> 00:22:02.970 White Owl: At the beginning, where the person speaking says, we are all connected.
00:22:03.310 --> 00:22:07.809 White Owl: So… I mean, I had an experience of that
00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:23.589 White Owl: being connected to the all. You know, the God in everything, which had been a concept that I had had, but it's different between having a concept and having a lived experience, and I think that's what's.
00:22:23.590 --> 00:22:23.980 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Right.
00:22:23.980 --> 00:22:33.500 White Owl: So beautiful about About these medicines, that they can give us an experience of, of something that,
00:22:33.740 --> 00:22:38.199 White Owl: You know, is very profound and, changes us.
00:22:38.460 --> 00:22:43.920 White Owl: So, I had one of those experiences, and,
00:22:44.330 --> 00:22:49.010 White Owl: And then my second experience was the worst night of my life.
00:22:49.010 --> 00:22:52.109 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It's funny how that happens, isn't it?
00:22:52.110 --> 00:22:59.859 White Owl: I took a trip to hell. I didn't even really believe in the devil before that, but in that experience, I turned into the devil, and .
00:22:59.860 --> 00:23:00.580 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Oh.
00:23:00.580 --> 00:23:05.570 White Owl: Yeah, horns, horns pop out, and claws, and
00:23:05.970 --> 00:23:09.439 White Owl: And my particular hell was,
00:23:09.650 --> 00:23:15.380 White Owl: every fault or criticism or flaw I saw in myself, Was on, like, the…
00:23:16.580 --> 00:23:30.010 White Owl: this hideous slideshow, and I could just… just all night long, I was seeing all this, and and beating myself up, you know, really without mercy, for being such a flawed human being. And,
00:23:32.020 --> 00:23:40.860 White Owl: And that experience really changed me. You know, it took a little bit of therapy to kind of integrate that one, and
00:23:42.080 --> 00:23:43.620 White Owl: And my wife said.
00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:59.269 White Owl: I became a much better husband after that experience, because I think it was extremely humbling. You know, I thought I was a pretty together person, a very experienced psychonaut, I could handle pretty much anything, but…
00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:01.879 White Owl: That brought me to my knees.
00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:02.550 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And I could…
00:24:02.550 --> 00:24:09.039 White Owl: see that, you know, my narcissism and self-importance, you know, pretty clearly in
00:24:09.260 --> 00:24:17.780 White Owl: she said, wow, you know, now you can apologize when you screw up. Whereas before, I would kind of laugh it off, and .
00:24:19.040 --> 00:24:20.010 White Owl: So…
00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:27.730 White Owl: It was effective medicine for me. I had done a lot of therapeutic things, but nothing got into the ego stuff.
00:24:28.030 --> 00:24:31.180 White Owl: Like, like this medicine, and
00:24:31.910 --> 00:24:39.490 White Owl: like I say in the book, you know, if you don't start out humble going into this work, you'll get… you'll likely get there very quickly, you know?
00:24:39.490 --> 00:24:39.880 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Dude.
00:24:39.880 --> 00:24:42.800 White Owl: And we'll make you shit your pants or something.
00:24:42.800 --> 00:24:44.310 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It's real.
00:24:44.310 --> 00:24:45.559 White Owl: Hard to be humble, you know?
00:24:45.560 --> 00:24:46.850 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah. I mean, that's.
00:24:46.850 --> 00:24:47.440 White Owl: Efficient, yeah.
00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:48.919 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That's a young one.
00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:54.960 White Owl: That's… that… did I… did I explain your… did I answer your question? How I got into it?
00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:59.229 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just wanted to relate, because I had…
00:24:59.770 --> 00:25:13.919 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Not the same kind of experience, but sort of a tangential experience, where I remember going into a ceremony once with the intention of sort of experiencing oneness and the interconnection of life and stuff.
00:25:14.390 --> 00:25:24.319 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And then, what was shown to me all night long was, like, war, and violence, and all this horrible stuff.
00:25:25.120 --> 00:25:33.290 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And I was just like, huh? I mean, totally confused me, and totally didn't,
00:25:35.350 --> 00:25:39.180 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Didn't, didn't… didn't… didn't understand it until…
00:25:39.520 --> 00:25:42.759 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: At the very, very end.
00:25:43.040 --> 00:25:46.460 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Like, as the medicine was… was fading.
00:25:47.360 --> 00:26:05.560 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And then the answer kind of came to me, it's like, well, if you want to be one with the universe, you have to be one with everything, not just the… you know, not just the rainbows and unicorns, but all the horrible stuff in the world as well. And so then I got the message.
00:26:06.100 --> 00:26:06.910 White Owl: Right.
00:26:07.230 --> 00:26:12.369 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: so, after that experience with, with…
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:16.299 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hose… well, well, you said it was really the second one.
00:26:16.750 --> 00:26:25.199 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And then you worked with a therapist to help to integrate that How long was it,
00:26:26.420 --> 00:26:28.960 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Before you realize that
00:26:29.080 --> 00:26:36.959 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: This was something not just for you to participate in, but that you actually wanted to facilitate ceremonies.
00:26:38.980 --> 00:26:44.669 White Owl: Yeah, and this actually ties in with your… your blog, you know, about how…
00:26:45.080 --> 00:26:50.490 White Owl: Things come, you know, in surprising moments, you know, when you least expect it.
00:26:51.340 --> 00:26:59.960 White Owl: So after those two experiences, I went down to Peru, and did a plant dieta with, Jose.
00:27:00.100 --> 00:27:01.069 White Owl: So, Planty activity.
00:27:01.070 --> 00:27:04.839 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Explain Dieta, because not all of my audience might know what a dieta is.
00:27:04.840 --> 00:27:16.230 White Owl: Right. So, a dieta, well, it's diet, but what it is, is sort of a combination of, like, a Vipassana meditation,
00:27:16.490 --> 00:27:28.709 White Owl: along with ayahuasca ceremonies and working with other plants. So in this… there's lots of different ways to do dietas, but the way that Jose did it, and I do it, is,
00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:45.400 White Owl: We're in the jungle for 11 days, and the middle 9 days, we're in the dieta, and that means that we're not speaking to each other, we're eating very simple plant-based, foods, easy to digest. We're living by ourselves.
00:27:46.430 --> 00:27:48.959 White Owl: And we're working with…
00:27:49.490 --> 00:28:03.260 White Owl: the other teacher plants in the jungle. The plants that go into ayahuasca, ayahuasca chacruna, and sometimes other plants, those can be, you know, brought to the United States and other countries,
00:28:03.820 --> 00:28:10.689 White Owl: Although, you know, as you know, it's not legal to be, Bringing these, these plants in.
00:28:12.170 --> 00:28:18.650 White Owl: But there's many other, teacher plants, plants that help us in various ways, and…
00:28:18.650 --> 00:28:41.400 White Owl: in the jungles where we work with them, and they're generally harvested fresh. Many of them are the barks, but sometimes other parts of the plants are used, and most of them, if it's a bark, it's going to be boiled up and served in a carafe that you receive every day. And these are not hallucinogenic, but they help us in various ways.
00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:50.389 White Owl: So what we do is a combination of ayahuasca ceremonies every other night, but every day, one's working with these other plants.
00:28:51.370 --> 00:28:58.459 White Owl: I'm not sure… I'll name some of these other plants that we work with, but they're not well known in this part of the world.
00:28:58.830 --> 00:29:03.190 White Owl: Goldman sauna is often a plant we start with. It's in the mimosa family.
00:29:03.660 --> 00:29:08.849 White Owl: The Shihuahuwako, that's the largest tree in that area of the jungle.
00:29:09.470 --> 00:29:14.340 White Owl: Very massive tree, La Puna Blanca, Cherry Sanango,
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:16.730 White Owl: To name just a few of them.
00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:21.539 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And the different trees and different plants
00:29:21.690 --> 00:29:30.870 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: they have… do they have different properties? Like… like, are you working with a different one to work on something specific, or are they just kind of, like, general, like.
00:29:31.150 --> 00:29:33.589 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Detoxification-type plants.
00:29:34.180 --> 00:29:36.809 White Owl: Yeah, that's a great question, Sam. Well,
00:29:38.820 --> 00:29:42.050 White Owl: We can kind of divide, plants up into,
00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:56.279 White Owl: Well, like human beings, you know, each human being, you know, has certain gifts, and I think we're working with the plants that… one of their gifts is that they can interact with human consciousness. Not every plant
00:29:57.090 --> 00:30:03.500 White Owl: can, you know, and some are toxic and would kill us, but there's those plants that are,
00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:12.909 White Owl: say, cleansing plants. You know, sometimes at the beginning of a dietito, one will work with, say, tobacco, or,
00:30:14.710 --> 00:30:32.089 White Owl: Yardapunga that… that are very, you know, help you vomit, and you get cleaned out, early. So there's a few of those plants. There's plants that are known as teacher plants that have the ability to interact with our consciousness and act as teachers.
00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:39.840 White Owl: And then there's a lot of plants that strengthen us, internally and externally as well.
00:30:40.660 --> 00:30:45.730 White Owl: And then there's plants of protection, like tobacco is one of those.
00:30:47.430 --> 00:30:50.939 White Owl: Kamalonga, which is from the oleander plant.
00:30:51.140 --> 00:30:55.769 White Owl: Cherry Sanango, and there's a various Sanango. So.
00:30:57.650 --> 00:31:13.849 White Owl: And we don't really know how a given plant is going to work with an individual. You know, for some people, you know, it may work more on the emotional level. Others, it may end up working more on the physical level, so… so…
00:31:14.090 --> 00:31:19.059 White Owl: when one enters a dietito, one isn't told, like, this is what you can expect. It's like, see what happens.
00:31:19.060 --> 00:31:19.960 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: happens.
00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:20.380 White Owl: See what happens.
00:31:20.380 --> 00:31:20.810 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: happens.
00:31:20.810 --> 00:31:24.980 White Owl: Rather than fill your mind with ideas of things that may or may not happen.
00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:26.400 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Oh.
00:31:26.780 --> 00:31:31.900 White Owl: So it's a very deep experience. We're, you know, that silence and unplugging from
00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:35.619 White Owl: The internet and our cell phones,
00:31:35.830 --> 00:31:38.819 White Owl: Helps us go very deep, and…
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:55.749 White Owl: You know, in the United States, after ceremonies, we… well, in our groups, we offer food, and people start talking right away. The dieta, after the ceremony, you go back to your dwelling, and you may continue to process things. So, a lot can happen in a dieta.
00:31:56.950 --> 00:32:05.810 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: All right, beautiful. We need to take a quick break. When we come back, let's talk about, sort of.
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:14.719 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: How you went from participant to facilitator, and then, like, what you've learned over the years
00:32:14.840 --> 00:32:19.749 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: In terms of, helping to have
00:32:20.050 --> 00:32:35.800 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: discernment with who you work with, or what medicine you work with, or what facilitator you work with, so that our audience can really get some… some… some guidance for moving forward if they're interested in these kinds of topics, okay?
00:32:36.110 --> 00:32:36.970 White Owl: Sounds good.
00:32:37.260 --> 00:32:55.639 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Wonderful. So, everyone, please stay tuned. You're listening to The Conscious Consultant Hour, Awakening Humanity. We do this every Wednesday now, 12 noon to 1 p.m. Eastern Time, right here on talkradio.nyc and all over social media. And we'll be right back with our guest, White Owl, author of the book.
00:32:55.670 --> 00:32:58.930 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: In service of ayahuasca, in just a moment.
00:34:13.170 --> 00:34:25.280 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So, White Al, you basically engaged in plant medicine work for… from 2005 to 2008, you know, roughly 3 years in earnest.
00:34:25.860 --> 00:34:35.049 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: What was it that got you to say, you know what, I want to be more than just a participant, I want to actually serve this medicine?
00:34:35.540 --> 00:34:37.699 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: What was that tipping point for you?
00:34:38.739 --> 00:34:44.219 White Owl: Well, just gonna go back a little bit to that dieta that I was taught.
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:47.599 White Owl: So in that first Yetta I did with Jose,
00:34:48.019 --> 00:34:55.709 White Owl: At the beginning of ceremony, he would say, you know, who would like to sing a song or play an instrument later in the ceremony?
00:34:56.089 --> 00:35:02.989 White Owl: And… I guess I… I raised my hand. It's not… I didn't have a song.
00:35:03.570 --> 00:35:05.930 White Owl: I didn't bring an instrument down there,
00:35:06.270 --> 00:35:08.769 White Owl: So when my turn came,
00:35:08.950 --> 00:35:26.169 White Owl: he brought his, it's called a shakapa. It's a… it's like a rattle made out of leaves from the shakapa palm, so it sort of looks like a fan, and we use it to make a nice whooshing sound, and sometimes if he's singing over people, to deliver the medicine of that
00:35:26.560 --> 00:35:32.780 White Owl: song to you, he'll… Touch it on your head, your chest, your back, your hands.
00:35:33.180 --> 00:35:36.909 White Owl: So he, he handed me this shikapa to sing with, and…
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:44.220 White Owl: So I was shaking it and just making some sounds that… that came to me, and when I was done.
00:35:45.250 --> 00:35:57.859 White Owl: I expected him to come back and take his shikapa, but he was doing something with a rattle or a drum, and so I just laid there and, with it, and… and it… and it seemed like this…
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:00.090 White Owl: This being came to me.
00:36:00.380 --> 00:36:07.969 White Owl: And instructed me to take the handle end and, like, touch different places on my body.
00:36:08.500 --> 00:36:16.349 White Owl: And it's… Transmitted to me, he said, you've been initiated, you are a keeper of the light.
00:36:16.490 --> 00:36:21.790 White Owl: And then it… it went away, and I was left wondering, you know, what…
00:36:21.790 --> 00:36:37.119 White Owl: what the hell was that? And later in the ceremony, as I was coming down, I thought, oh, well, how ridiculous that, you know, I came to the jungle thinking that something mystical would happen, and so I just fabricated this hallucination, and…
00:36:37.120 --> 00:36:38.080 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm…
00:36:38.080 --> 00:36:51.840 White Owl: You know, we can, you know, insert our desires to have things happen in this work, and… so that was my thought. And then, in my head, a kind of loud and angry voice said, you were initiated, remember that.
00:36:52.820 --> 00:36:53.710 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm.
00:36:54.330 --> 00:36:58.920 White Owl: So, the next morning, when Jose came around through… with an interpreter.
00:36:59.510 --> 00:37:05.899 White Owl: I told him about my experience, and he was like, big deal, you know, like, many people…
00:37:06.490 --> 00:37:23.799 White Owl: Many people are keepers of the light, what do you want to do with it? And I said, I want to do this work. And he was like, oh, God, why would you want to do that? You know, you're already a medical doctor, you're helping people, you don't want to do this work. And I said, well, just working on the fiscal level just doesn't…
00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:28.280 White Owl: isn't called me anymore. You know, this is what I want to do, and I want to…
00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:36.510 White Owl: apprentice with you? And he said, I don't take apprentices. I said, oh, come on, you know, and he said, no, that's not how it's done in this work. He said.
00:37:36.680 --> 00:37:43.210 White Owl: You know, another… a shaman doesn't decide whether this work is for you, it's… he says the plant spirits decide.
00:37:43.310 --> 00:38:00.669 White Owl: And it's… one just needs to jump into the work, you know, come down here at least every 6 months, drink as much as you can, whenever you can, and see what happens. If they're interested in having you serve them, they'll let you know. And if they're not interested, they'll just teach you other things.
00:38:00.990 --> 00:38:03.880 White Owl: You won't know, so…
00:38:05.120 --> 00:38:18.059 White Owl: I kept persisting, and, you know, come on, there's gotta be some fast track here, I'm already in my 50s, I'm not gonna have that many years. And he said, no, there's no shortcuts. You know, one learns by experience, and one learns by
00:38:19.110 --> 00:38:25.759 White Owl: You know, taking in… You know, the spirit of these other plants, they're… they're what…
00:38:25.970 --> 00:38:33.729 White Owl: help people in ceremony. It's not… not you. So you need to work… have enough allies on your team
00:38:33.990 --> 00:38:37.639 White Owl: To be able to, to do this work
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:46.650 White Owl: And he told me a story. He said, you know, I started out with… there was another guy who was kind of started out with me, who happened to be a medical doctor like you.
00:38:47.960 --> 00:39:00.529 White Owl: he said, nothing was happening for this other guy, you know, and lots was happening for Jose, and the doctor said, I don't get it, Jose, why aren't things happening for me? We're doing the same things, and Jose said, well.
00:39:01.060 --> 00:39:09.079 White Owl: I don't know, maybe I'm just more open. So that gets to what you were talking about in the blog, that one thing that
00:39:10.240 --> 00:39:13.519 White Owl: that I learned along the way is that grasping
00:39:13.740 --> 00:39:33.299 White Owl: and striving, to gain anything in this world was, 180 degrees off that pushed everything away, and that it was only by not grasping and not striving that things came. So I see that photo of Superman behind you, and he's…
00:39:33.620 --> 00:39:37.870 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That's an homage to Doctor Strange.
00:39:37.870 --> 00:39:56.840 White Owl: Oh, okay. Yeah, I didn't… I wasn't into Doctor Strange, but that… that motion with the hands is, like, you know, could be thought of as grasping, and that… that grasping, which doctors are… are well trained in doing, you know, to get through medical school and all the training, you know, we're…
00:39:57.090 --> 00:40:08.390 White Owl: or, professional graspers, that that was not gonna work in this, and it would… the gifts came by just simply being there and present, and,
00:40:08.780 --> 00:40:11.980 White Owl: And grateful for whatever was coming, even if it was just…
00:40:12.410 --> 00:40:15.509 White Owl: You know, a pleasant, a pleasant ceremony.
00:40:15.510 --> 00:40:15.990 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm.
00:40:15.990 --> 00:40:19.260 White Owl: So… it wasn't…
00:40:20.030 --> 00:40:38.010 White Owl: And a friend told me, he said, you know, the plant medicines choose… the plant spirits choose people who aren't interested in doing this work. If you're really interested in doing this work, they don't choose you. So, there's, like, a catch-22. You know, like, why would I be doing plant dietas every 6 months?
00:40:38.060 --> 00:40:42.589 White Owl: You know, and they're not easy to do. If I wasn't interested in doing this, but if…
00:40:43.620 --> 00:40:50.199 White Owl: If I was interested, then they wouldn't choose me, so… it… The surprising moment came,
00:40:51.460 --> 00:40:58.560 White Owl: In a ceremony, A number of years later, maybe in, you know, 2008 or so.
00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:02.959 White Owl: Where, earlier in that dieta, I had had…
00:41:04.450 --> 00:41:11.350 White Owl: very strong, like, memories of having been a slave in ancient Egypt, and
00:41:11.480 --> 00:41:14.630 White Owl: I wasn't, like, a big believer in past lives, but…
00:41:14.750 --> 00:41:31.190 White Owl: Well, this was very real, very, very real, and I could… I was being lashed on my back, and and it really felt very real, and it continued even after the ceremony, into the next day.
00:41:32.120 --> 00:41:38.829 White Owl: Which is very unusual. Most things, you know, when the medicine leaves us, they fade, but this was not fading.
00:41:38.970 --> 00:41:46.429 White Owl: And… Jose said, just… just stick with it. You know, he couldn't explain it, and…
00:41:46.430 --> 00:41:46.850 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm.
00:41:46.850 --> 00:41:56.119 White Owl: the light came on when I realized, oh, the difference between a slave and a free man is a slave either serves or dies. You know, if this…
00:41:56.380 --> 00:41:59.460 White Owl: Whereas a free man can serve or not serve, and…
00:41:59.790 --> 00:42:03.869 White Owl: And we don't… we wouldn't lose our life if we choose not to serve, and…
00:42:04.680 --> 00:42:22.219 White Owl: So that night, everything in the ceremony was going great, and… and then all of a sudden, all the colors faded, and everything just turned muddy brown, and suddenly I got really bored. And really, for the first time since I started on this journey in 2005,
00:42:22.740 --> 00:42:32.969 White Owl: I thought, I don't want to do this work. It's… this is messy work. You know, people are crying and freaking out, and tremendous responsibility,
00:42:33.250 --> 00:42:36.139 White Owl: And… I don't want to do this work.
00:42:36.270 --> 00:42:42.580 White Owl: And just in that moment, in my vision, all these plant spirits,
00:42:43.010 --> 00:42:45.669 White Owl: Were in front of me, and…
00:42:46.240 --> 00:42:56.200 White Owl: And there was, like, one in the front, you know, kind of like you, and it looked at me, it said, do you want us inside you or not? Now is when you need to choose, and…
00:42:57.040 --> 00:42:58.719 White Owl: And I thought to myself.
00:42:59.590 --> 00:43:10.400 White Owl: yeah, I freely choose to have you inside me. And then, all of a sudden, it felt like I'd swallowed a big bucket of live fish. All these things were swimming around in me, and…
00:43:10.750 --> 00:43:21.869 White Owl: I was freaking out, I was like, hey, I didn't even ask, who are you? Just, you know, make yourself at home. And and I went, okay, okay, I think it's just the spirit of all these
00:43:22.390 --> 00:43:33.010 White Owl: plant spirits that… that I… of the plants I'd been dieting with over the years were wanting to know whether they, you know, wanted… whether I wanted them inside.
00:43:33.010 --> 00:43:34.050 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm.
00:43:34.050 --> 00:43:37.340 White Owl: And I settle down, they settle down, and
00:43:37.650 --> 00:43:45.279 White Owl: Directly after that, when Jose asked me to sing, there was something… a different quality in my voice. There was a more…
00:43:46.520 --> 00:43:59.179 White Owl: power, you know, with the term meridi, you know, that's the power and force that we get from having planned spirits inside us. It was there, and Jose said, sometimes it can happen like that. You're just, all of a sudden.
00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:02.839 White Owl: You know, the plant spirits are inside you, and it changes your voice.
00:44:03.260 --> 00:44:07.110 White Owl: So the sense I made of this, Sam, is that
00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:09.239 White Owl: Well, number one, they were waiting…
00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:19.090 White Owl: Until I… I no longer wanted to do this work. You know, so what my friend said was true, that it did come at a time when I no longer wanted to do this work.
00:44:19.090 --> 00:44:19.480 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm.
00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:22.500 White Owl: And also, they… they were waiting until…
00:44:23.100 --> 00:44:26.940 White Owl: they knew that I could make a free choice, because
00:44:28.130 --> 00:44:31.250 White Owl: I don't know, my whole life, I kind of felt… I just grew up…
00:44:31.560 --> 00:44:38.189 White Owl: with this notion that if anyone asks for my help, if I was able to do it, I had to do it.
00:44:40.060 --> 00:44:44.930 White Owl: It wasn't like I had… the freedom to say no, and I think they needed…
00:44:45.780 --> 00:44:48.960 White Owl: Or they wanted to know that I could say no.
00:44:49.100 --> 00:44:53.119 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Right, right. That you had some sovereignty in there, that it was not that you had.
00:44:53.120 --> 00:44:53.529 White Owl: I had to do.
00:44:53.530 --> 00:44:57.390 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But that you wanted to do it, which is a different inflection.
00:44:57.610 --> 00:45:14.890 White Owl: Right, right. So… so that… that was that surprising moment when things changed, when I… I no longer wanted to do it, and I had the ability to make a free choice. So that was my deal with Spirit that night, is I said, I will serve you as long as I want to serve you, and I'm free to…
00:45:15.190 --> 00:45:20.029 White Owl: to leave… And, you know, not lose my life, or…
00:45:21.080 --> 00:45:23.850 White Owl: be harmed in any way if I choose not to.
00:45:24.190 --> 00:45:25.740 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Gotcha, gotcha.
00:45:26.260 --> 00:45:29.350 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah, sometimes I know…
00:45:30.250 --> 00:45:42.500 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: People who participate tend to glamorize the people who are serving the medicine, and they think that, oh, this is so great, this is so wonderful that you can do this, and…
00:45:42.670 --> 00:45:54.109 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: They don't really see… The challenges, the difficult part, the aspects that… really,
00:45:54.900 --> 00:45:58.279 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Make it very challenging to be a medicine holder.
00:45:59.240 --> 00:46:07.770 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I'm curious, in your years, I mean, it's been, you know, over 20 years that you've been involved in this work.
00:46:08.990 --> 00:46:11.329 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: What have you learned about…
00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:32.240 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: you know, guiding people as to whether they engage in these medicines or not, and if they do, like, how do you discern whether this facilitator or practitioner is a good practitioner for you to work with? Like you said, your very first experience, you didn't feel anything. Like, like.
00:46:32.420 --> 00:46:39.490 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: How have you learned to discern, and how can people discern who's good for them to work with or not?
00:46:42.240 --> 00:46:51.010 White Owl: Well, the first thing I look for is, do… Do people feel really called Called to this, medicine.
00:46:51.180 --> 00:46:56.439 White Owl: Or not. Differentiating that from…
00:46:57.170 --> 00:46:59.880 White Owl: People that are talked into it.
00:46:59.880 --> 00:47:01.140 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Right.
00:47:01.430 --> 00:47:12.380 White Owl: early in my career, I thought, you know, this was the best thing since, you know, sliced bread, and I was over-talking with everyone, and, you know, saying, you really gotta try this, and
00:47:12.380 --> 00:47:22.070 White Owl: Some people got in to ceremonies, I think, on the winds of my enthusiasm and my wife's enthusiasm, but they didn't really feel called, and…
00:47:22.070 --> 00:47:22.470 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Almost sound.
00:47:22.470 --> 00:47:26.170 White Owl: 100% of the time, it was not a good experience for them.
00:47:26.170 --> 00:47:27.010 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: You know, so…
00:47:27.160 --> 00:47:30.450 White Owl: Are they really feeling called? And what goes into that
00:47:31.010 --> 00:47:33.159 White Owl: I don't know, you know,
00:47:33.340 --> 00:47:35.400 White Owl: You know, I mean, they say that…
00:47:35.950 --> 00:47:40.269 White Owl: you know, we don't take ayahuasca, ayahuasca takes us, you know, and so…
00:47:40.480 --> 00:47:49.800 White Owl: I think… and I believe that that's true. I believe that this is a very intelligent medicine. I mean, I talk about it, you know, like it's a being, you know.
00:47:50.390 --> 00:47:56.750 White Owl: conscious being, and I know, you know, many people call it mother ayahuasca, grandmother ayahuasca,
00:47:56.890 --> 00:48:02.830 White Owl: So, I think, are they being called by the medicine is one factor.
00:48:02.830 --> 00:48:03.490 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm.
00:48:03.490 --> 00:48:09.509 White Owl: Well… You know, on the other hand.
00:48:09.850 --> 00:48:21.459 White Owl: the next… next question is, would this be a safe experience for you? Even if you feel called? As you probably know, that this medicine is a combination of
00:48:21.460 --> 00:48:32.030 White Owl: Two plants, one of which inactivates an enzyme in the body, and it's because of that, when mixed with certain medicines.
00:48:32.110 --> 00:48:38.140 White Owl: Mike, Typical antidepressants can cause a very serious,
00:48:38.470 --> 00:48:45.569 White Owl: condition called serotonin syndrome, you know, which could be lethal. So,
00:48:45.570 --> 00:49:05.230 White Owl: So, are they on an… do they have any medical illnesses? Do they have, psycho, you know, mental health issues, like bipolar? You know, this medicine, like… like antidepressants, can swing people into mania. Do they have psychosis, schizophrenia, personality disorders.
00:49:05.230 --> 00:49:16.370 White Owl: Are they particularly unstable at this time, or in the grips of serious addiction? You know, I personally don't think that this is a good thing to do when you're
00:49:16.430 --> 00:49:20.660 White Owl: you know, deep into an addiction. I think.
00:49:20.660 --> 00:49:21.260 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That's it.
00:49:21.260 --> 00:49:29.169 White Owl: it's really good after you are in a recovery program, you know, I think it'd be helpful, but…
00:49:29.590 --> 00:49:33.439 White Owl: I haven't seen it be that helpful, you know, when people are…
00:49:33.600 --> 00:49:39.479 White Owl: Off their addictions just enough days to get into the ceremony.
00:49:39.480 --> 00:49:52.269 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah. And it can be very challenging, from what I've seen, for people who have dealt with addiction issues in the past. This medicine can be really, really challenging for them, and really…
00:49:52.270 --> 00:49:59.610 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I mean, the work is very deep, but it's really challenging. They really have to be up to the task.
00:49:59.610 --> 00:50:02.580 White Owl: Right. Frequently, there's a tremendous amount of purging, you know.
00:50:03.320 --> 00:50:07.259 White Owl: Seems like the medicine often starts with what's going on in the body, and.
00:50:07.260 --> 00:50:07.730 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Right.
00:50:07.730 --> 00:50:17.470 White Owl: Obviously, if you've been in addiction, there's a lot going on there. So, assuming that someone is a good candidate, they don't have any of the contraindicated,
00:50:19.370 --> 00:50:25.299 White Owl: illnesses or medications, things like that. Then,
00:50:26.370 --> 00:50:35.489 White Owl: your question was, how can they choose someone? Is this the right medicine for them? And, how to choose someone?
00:50:35.490 --> 00:50:36.800 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Right. Right.
00:50:37.680 --> 00:50:38.420 White Owl: Well…
00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:54.760 White Owl: You know, often we don't know if it's the right medicine for someone until they work with it, and sometimes people need to work with it for a while before they can tell if it's a medicine that works for them.
00:50:54.760 --> 00:50:55.370 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm.
00:50:59.580 --> 00:51:11.070 White Owl: It's certainly not a recreational, you know, medicine. Someone needs to be prepared to do some real work, you know, as I talked about. You know, be prepared for the possibility of, you know, having
00:51:11.560 --> 00:51:19.779 White Owl: you know, maybe the worst night of your life, you know, where you're unable to look away from something.
00:51:22.270 --> 00:51:23.150 White Owl: Well.
00:51:24.500 --> 00:51:37.080 White Owl: You know, occasionally we have people come to this work not having worked with any other plant medicine, you know? Not even cannabis. Maybe they even haven't had alcohol.
00:51:37.740 --> 00:51:49.899 White Owl: But that's unusual. Most people have had some experience with non-ordinary states of consciousness before coming, and but not necessarily.
00:51:50.290 --> 00:51:58.759 White Owl: So… I mean, on the scale of… of these medicines, you know, from,
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:07.189 White Owl: say, you know, I don't know how to put it, like, from weak to really strong. I think this is on the… on the very strong…
00:52:07.190 --> 00:52:10.260 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I always refer to it as jumping into the deep end of the pool.
00:52:10.260 --> 00:52:10.650 White Owl: Right.
00:52:10.650 --> 00:52:12.840 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Where you've learned to swim in the shallow end.
00:52:12.840 --> 00:52:26.189 White Owl: Right, right. So, that's a question. Is it… is it appropriate to jump into the deep end right away, or should you learn how to swim in the shallow end first before going into the deep end? So.
00:52:26.510 --> 00:52:29.289 White Owl: For some… for people that want
00:52:32.240 --> 00:52:38.989 White Owl: And… and probably need a lot of holding, you know, while they're going through this state.
00:52:39.140 --> 00:52:52.400 White Owl: ayahuasca in a ceremonial, in a group ceremony, you know, which is what I do, may not be appropriate for them. That maybe starting with mushrooms in a one-on-one,
00:52:53.260 --> 00:53:00.350 White Owl: Holding, way, maybe the best way, because…
00:53:00.350 --> 00:53:00.900 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm.
00:53:01.410 --> 00:53:06.230 White Owl: In our ceremonies, at least, you know, we do have, you know, what we call sitters or guardians,
00:53:06.890 --> 00:53:27.420 White Owl: Maybe, you know, one for every 10 participants, and, you know, they can help people that are… that need some extra support, but it's not one-on-one. And it… so for some people, it's best to start one-on-one, and after they've gained some confidence in their ability to navigate non-ordinary states of consciousness, then maybe come into a ceremony.
00:53:27.420 --> 00:53:29.200 White Owl: But…
00:53:29.200 --> 00:53:36.939 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We don't have much time left, and I did want to get to your book a little bit in service of ayahuasca, so I just quickly wanted to ask you.
00:53:37.220 --> 00:53:42.459 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: What was the impetus to write this book, and what do you hope people get from reading the book?
00:53:42.700 --> 00:53:53.840 White Owl: Yeah, thanks, Sam. In choosing someone to lead a ceremony, choose someone that's humble, as well. Bragging about all the, you know.
00:53:53.840 --> 00:54:05.400 White Owl: the ways they've healed people, if they're claiming that they're the healer, and not the spirit realm, I would avoid them. Someone with a big ego,
00:54:05.450 --> 00:54:07.340 White Owl: I would avoid working with.
00:54:08.590 --> 00:54:15.350 White Owl: So, I was approached by the publishers that published my mentor's book.
00:54:15.860 --> 00:54:23.149 White Owl: Geraldine Overton, Overton and Michael Wiese, they… they had run, Divine Arts
00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:26.719 White Owl: press. And, the book that…
00:54:26.990 --> 00:54:31.170 White Owl: They actually wrote and published, was,
00:54:31.480 --> 00:54:36.009 White Owl: The Shaman and Ayahuasca. It's a book about Jose Campos, and…
00:54:36.470 --> 00:54:42.969 White Owl: after Michael Pollan, and they published that in the early 2000s,
00:54:44.010 --> 00:54:49.999 White Owl: After Michael Pollan came out with his book, How to Change Your Mind, it occurred to them that a lot of people in…
00:54:50.380 --> 00:55:00.869 White Owl: our age group, you know, who may have worked with LSD or, you know, MDA, something like that, you know, in college.
00:55:01.140 --> 00:55:08.840 White Owl: and then kind of backed off from these kind of medicines. Might be interested in… in working with…
00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:16.210 White Owl: these types of medicines. He doesn't talk much about ayahuasca, but pretty much everything that applies to psilocybin would
00:55:16.210 --> 00:55:31.930 White Owl: would apply to ayahuasca, in terms of its beneficial effects. They might be interested in giving it another look, you know, because he… he pretty well endorses the respectful use of these plant medicines as a way to,
00:55:31.950 --> 00:55:34.679 White Owl: Open up the mind, change the mind,
00:55:34.970 --> 00:55:41.090 White Owl: And they thought that my story, having come from being a medical doctor and then embracing
00:55:41.380 --> 00:55:59.690 White Owl: this in a big way, and facilitating ceremonies might be helpful for them, in giving some legitis… legitimacy to this work, as that this is, you know, a serious, and legitimate path to, awakening. So…
00:56:00.240 --> 00:56:16.249 White Owl: they basically talked me into writing this book. I'm not a writer, I was, you know, good at math and science, but not writing, and so they had me write a chapter, and they said, this is good, you know, the bones are there, and just keep writing, and so it was really…
00:56:17.030 --> 00:56:29.859 White Owl: at their impetus that I began this, and it… there were a lot of ups and downs I don't need to get into. Eventually, Michael died, and their editor died while he was editing the.
00:56:29.860 --> 00:56:31.250 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Whoa.
00:56:31.250 --> 00:56:39.070 White Owl: And the project was dropped, and I ended up, you know, having to find another editor and other publishing.
00:56:39.250 --> 00:56:44.750 White Owl: So, your question of what do I hope people get out of this book,
00:56:46.150 --> 00:56:53.099 White Owl: Well, just… just that, you know, what their initial intention was, that this is,
00:56:54.750 --> 00:56:58.470 White Owl: a path that I, and many others have,
00:56:59.200 --> 00:57:04.490 White Owl: found what we were… were seeking. And…
00:57:05.140 --> 00:57:08.890 White Owl: I find this medicine to be…
00:57:09.530 --> 00:57:19.700 White Owl: out of all the things I've worked with, this is most clearly been a teacher for me, and it's very interactive and alive in that
00:57:20.600 --> 00:57:21.869 White Owl: You know, we're…
00:57:22.160 --> 00:57:38.710 White Owl: communicating, you know, it's not out loud, but there's definitely a voice that one hears, and, you know, what that voice is, you know, is it us, is it ayahuasca? You know, is it God? No one really knows, but
00:57:39.050 --> 00:57:42.139 White Owl: You know, if you're serious about,
00:57:42.620 --> 00:58:00.620 White Owl: your awakening and your expansion and your healing, I think that this is a very good medicine for that. Yet, it's quite unpredictable. One never really… one doesn't know, even though we go in with a certain intention, whether
00:58:00.780 --> 00:58:07.560 White Owl: your intention is going to be honored that night. Sometimes it's just tossed aside, and we have something else in mind for you for tonight.
00:58:07.560 --> 00:58:08.130 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yes.
00:58:08.130 --> 00:58:26.519 White Owl: So I think it's safe, you know, if you're in good hands, you want to make sure that, you're with someone who's well-experienced, well-trained, with enough support, enough sitters around to support the group, that the set and setting are…
00:58:26.660 --> 00:58:29.219 White Owl: Are… are held in a sacred manner.
00:58:29.220 --> 00:58:29.930 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Really?
00:58:31.130 --> 00:58:36.509 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Right, because this is a sacred process, and it needs to be treated with reverence.
00:58:36.760 --> 00:58:37.400 White Owl: Right.
00:58:37.400 --> 00:58:46.650 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So, in service of ayahuasca, it's available on Amazon, I'm taking most major booksellers.
00:58:47.180 --> 00:58:48.830 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Just real quick.
00:58:49.000 --> 00:58:51.189 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Your real name isn't White Owl.
00:58:51.300 --> 00:58:56.240 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But you use White Owl. Why do you use White Owl instead of your real name?
00:58:57.630 --> 00:59:06.330 White Owl: Well, I don't use my real name because I'm still doing this work, and I don't want to lead the authorities, you know, directly to me.
00:59:06.330 --> 00:59:07.100 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Right.
00:59:07.300 --> 00:59:12.150 White Owl: But I had an experience with a white owl, in that first dieta, where it felt like…
00:59:12.740 --> 00:59:16.690 White Owl: I had received a transmission, and,
00:59:16.890 --> 00:59:30.440 White Owl: And so I… the opening chapter of the book, you know, describes this… what for me was a very magical and mystical experience with this white owl, and I hope that, somehow in my book, I'm…
00:59:30.560 --> 00:59:32.750 White Owl: Transmitting something.
00:59:32.750 --> 00:59:33.180 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: You know?
00:59:33.180 --> 00:59:36.189 White Owl: From that… that world of spirit.
00:59:36.190 --> 00:59:38.959 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm… Beautiful, beautiful.
00:59:39.020 --> 00:59:50.720 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Well, unfortunately, White Owl, we have to leave it there. I mean, I could have… I could easily have, like, a 3-5 hour conversation with you about all this stuff, but I am limited by time on this show, so…
00:59:50.720 --> 00:59:59.270 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciate you taking your time to share your experiences with my audience. Thank you.
00:59:59.270 --> 01:00:02.640 White Owl: Thank you. Bless you for your work, and… Thank you.
01:00:02.870 --> 01:00:22.189 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Thank you so much. And of course, thank you, my loyal listeners, for tuning in each week. Without you, there is no show. And don't forget, if you did miss any part of today's show, you can always catch the replay on talkradio.nyc and all of our social media platforms. Take care, everyone. We will talk to you all next week.
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