This week on The Conscious Consultant Hour, Sam welcomes Joe Moore and Kyle Buller, co-founders of Psychedelics Today, one of the world’s leading platforms for psychedelic media, education, and thought leadership.
Since launching Psychedelics Today in 2015, Joe and Kyle have been at the forefront of shaping informed, responsible conversations around psychedelic medicine bridging science, spirituality, culture, and personal transformation.
Joe brings over two decades of experience spanning psychedelic study, technology, and large-scale project management. A seasoned speaker and podcast host, he is deeply engaged in conversations around drug policy, environmentalism, and ethical use of psychedelics in both medical and personal growth contexts. Kyle’s path into this work began with a profound near-death experience at age sixteen—an initiation that led him into deep exploration of non-ordinary states of consciousness, transpersonal psychology, somatic healing, and breathwork. With a background in clinical mental health counseling and years of experience supporting people in crisis, Kyle brings a grounded, compassionate lens to integration and healing.
In this rich and timely conversation, Sam, Joe, and Kyle explore what it truly means to build a psychedelic culture rooted in responsibility, humility, and care. They discuss the importance of education, integration, and embodied practices like transpersonal breathwork, as well as the evolving role psychedelics play in mental health, spirituality, and collective awakening. This episode offers listeners both a wide-angle view of the psychedelic landscape and a deeply human story of why this work matters now more than ever.
Tune in and share your own questions about psychedelics and get educated on our YouTube livestream or on our Facebook page.
Sam Liebowitz opens by reminding conscious co-creators that healing trauma isn’t a “big breakthrough” moment, but a gentle, patient unwinding of the nervous system through small, consistent steps that slowly free stuck energy and reshape our lives over time. He then welcomes Joe Moore and Kyle Buller—co-founders of Psychedelics Today—who share paths into non-ordinary states: Kyle through a life-altering near-death experience that later found meaning through psychedelics and transpersonal psychology, and Joe through philosophy, breathwork, and community-building around integration and ethical use. Together they frame Psychedelics Today as a bridge between science and spirit, created to preserve wise teachings and bring “hallway conversations” (the real, grounded insights and integration support) to more seekers on the path.
Psychedelics Today’s mission, as Joe and Kyle describe it, is to help cultivate a psychedelically literate, “activated” humanity—one that treats altered and even spontaneous mystical experiences as meaningful parts of the human spectrum, not pathologies to be minimized or explained away. They aim to reunite science with an integral, soul-honoring view of reality by teaching both the clinical/medical frameworks and the spiritual, philosophical, and integration pieces—while also questioning the limits of today’s research paradigms and how medicine is actually practiced in an insurance-driven system. Practically, they serve through podcasts, articles, and education ranging from beginner entry points to year-long training, with a growing emphasis on preparing a broad ecosystem of professionals (not only facilitators) who can responsibly support access, integration, and cultural legitimacy—including respect for the underground and Indigenous roots alongside emerging legal models.
Kyle and Joe emphasize that the biggest need right now is discernment and pacing—psychedelics aren’t a magic bullet, can be destabilizing, and the real question is whether you’re truly ready to “shake the ground you’re on,” with safer entry points like therapy, somatic work, or breathwork helping build the resilience to hold what arises. They also warn that today’s access landscape is messy (misrepresented products, wildly variable potency, and pressure toward high-dose “hero” journeys), so being informed about sourcing, dosing, context, and your own window of tolerance matters as much as the experience itself. Spiritually, the thread running through the closing is gentle alchemy over shock—honor Indigenous lineages with honest context (including how tourism changes traditions), choose a slow-cooker path instead of chasing suffering-as-enlightenment, and stay curious and learning as your healing unfolds over time.
00:00:46.270 --> 00:00:56.220 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Good afternoon, my conscious co-creators! Welcome to another edition of the Conscious Consultant Hour, Awakening Humanity.
00:00:56.590 --> 00:01:15.430 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: I am very, very pleased that you are all here with me today. We've got another wonderful show in store for you, with not one, but two great guests, so I'm really looking forward to bringing on. So, let's get started with my blog post, as I always do at the beginning of every show.
00:01:15.430 --> 00:01:21.569 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And this one, again, I think rather apropos for what we're going to be talking about today, and this…
00:01:21.570 --> 00:01:26.360 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Blog post is entitled, Healing from our trauma.
00:01:26.610 --> 00:01:30.200 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Is a slow process not to be rushed.
00:01:31.330 --> 00:01:37.339 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: We often look for a big experience, the magic pill that will cure us.
00:01:37.530 --> 00:01:41.230 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Or the silver bullet that will end our pain.
00:01:42.270 --> 00:01:45.360 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yet the quick fix never works.
00:01:46.070 --> 00:01:48.900 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Real answers take time.
00:01:49.690 --> 00:01:52.880 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And the fast results never lasts.
00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:59.259 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Of course, we want our pain and anguish to end as soon as possible.
00:01:59.690 --> 00:02:01.739 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: That's only human of us.
00:02:02.090 --> 00:02:11.340 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: We've lived with the pain so long, and we are so tired of the agony that we just want it to be over.
00:02:12.090 --> 00:02:18.169 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: So it is understandable that we want to find a way to fix it all in an instant.
00:02:19.100 --> 00:02:24.659 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: We search for the big experience, hoping it will shock us into peace.
00:02:26.110 --> 00:02:29.030 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yet the nervous system doesn't work that way.
00:02:29.500 --> 00:02:33.240 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Shocking it only causes more trauma.
00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:38.530 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: The real answer is to go slow.
00:02:39.590 --> 00:02:41.530 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: to take baby steps.
00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:47.120 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Focusing on the immediate, small actions we can take.
00:02:47.710 --> 00:02:53.019 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Not big, grandiose gestures that do not last.
00:02:53.610 --> 00:02:57.060 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: It can be hard to accept that kind of approach.
00:02:57.740 --> 00:03:02.440 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: We are so used to running fast and getting things done.
00:03:02.730 --> 00:03:06.520 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: That we treat our healing path the same way.
00:03:07.340 --> 00:03:12.229 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Like, it is something we need to check off a list of things to accomplish.
00:03:13.220 --> 00:03:17.059 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: But healing from real trauma takes patience.
00:03:17.510 --> 00:03:19.250 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: It takes courage.
00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:22.379 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Time and space.
00:03:23.510 --> 00:03:31.429 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: For every time we rush our nervous system, we only cause more energy to get stuck in it.
00:03:32.470 --> 00:03:36.410 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Which gives us more to work on when we heal.
00:03:37.850 --> 00:03:43.729 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: However, when we decide to take the gentle route, everything changes.
00:03:44.780 --> 00:03:49.140 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Healing is no longer a race to get to an end.
00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:52.050 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: But a journey that we go on.
00:03:52.770 --> 00:03:59.699 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Our nervous system starts to unwind and let go of old, stuck energies.
00:04:00.350 --> 00:04:04.909 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: We begin to take those small steps that may not seem…
00:04:05.210 --> 00:04:07.820 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: To lead far in the beginning.
00:04:08.690 --> 00:04:15.979 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yet when we look back over time, we find those small steps lead to great changes.
00:04:17.209 --> 00:04:21.340 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: The incremental changes are not obvious at the time.
00:04:22.089 --> 00:04:26.140 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: We might even feel that we are not getting anywhere with our trauma.
00:04:26.520 --> 00:04:31.920 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And week after week, month after month, We start to change.
00:04:32.540 --> 00:04:36.850 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Forming new habits. Making new choices.
00:04:37.450 --> 00:04:42.180 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Finding creative ways to deal with difficult situations.
00:04:43.370 --> 00:04:48.270 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: It might seem counterintuitive, Yet it works.
00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:53.920 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Slow and steady does win the race.
00:04:55.940 --> 00:04:59.789 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: So where in your life are you looking for the big experience?
00:05:00.320 --> 00:05:04.939 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: How are you rushing your own healing journey?
00:05:06.940 --> 00:05:15.560 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: So… I wrote this blog post a couple of years ago. I believe after working with some clients, who…
00:05:16.390 --> 00:05:28.589 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: were like, oh, I really want to go deep in my process. I really want to be over and done with this pain and this trauma, and… and, you know, they were so sincere, and they so…
00:05:28.950 --> 00:05:31.940 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: You know, just wanted to feel better.
00:05:33.060 --> 00:05:39.189 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And… it was a little challenging for me to say to them, I go, like.
00:05:40.410 --> 00:05:42.879 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: It's not gonna happen overnight.
00:05:43.380 --> 00:05:47.099 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: It's not gonna happen in us working together on one session.
00:05:49.750 --> 00:05:54.240 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: the body… Doesn't respond well to being rushed.
00:05:57.830 --> 00:06:01.259 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And it's the slow and steady that really…
00:06:01.460 --> 00:06:07.320 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Doing our work consistently, over a period of time, over and over again.
00:06:07.750 --> 00:06:10.320 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And showing up for ourselves.
00:06:10.880 --> 00:06:21.590 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Like, that's how the energies get unlocked. That's how we end up metabolizing these things that have been stored in our bodies for so long.
00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:26.299 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And I know it wasn't what they wanted to hear.
00:06:26.640 --> 00:06:34.819 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And, they eventually actually stopped working with me, because they really wanted that big experience, you know, they wanted that big breakthrough.
00:06:37.130 --> 00:06:44.009 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And I just… I could have taken them there, but I just knew it didn't… it wouldn't serve them.
00:06:46.670 --> 00:07:03.370 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And the interesting thing is, like, now knowing what I know, because I've learned so much even in just the last couple of years, and I've taken this healing, this somatic touch form of healing called a transforming touch.
00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:08.910 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Which is all about developmental trauma and, and, and, and,
00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:17.499 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: In utero trauma, and working with the nervous system, and over and over again, the teacher is like, going slow, go slow.
00:07:17.670 --> 00:07:23.430 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And I've even heard it said that the body actually
00:07:23.960 --> 00:07:29.589 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Moves or operates 70 times slower than the mind.
00:07:30.130 --> 00:07:35.170 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Like, insights we can get in an instant. Understandings we can get like that.
00:07:36.930 --> 00:07:43.070 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: But to really feel it and embody it, that takes time and effort.
00:07:46.260 --> 00:07:54.930 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And unfortunately, just… We've all been in pain so long that it's hard to wait until that magic moment.
00:07:56.250 --> 00:08:01.210 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And really, I've… Come to appreciate how much it is about
00:08:02.100 --> 00:08:08.820 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: the journey and not the destination. You know, healing is something we're gonna do for the rest of our lives.
00:08:09.380 --> 00:08:19.669 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: It doesn't mean we're not gonna find a point where we feel better. It doesn't mean that life isn't gonna, you know, be better for us as we do our work.
00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:24.179 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: But the more we heal, the more we find…
00:08:24.410 --> 00:08:28.649 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: There are so many tender and soft places in us.
00:08:28.810 --> 00:08:31.150 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: That need even more healing.
00:08:33.179 --> 00:08:37.000 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: So, our healing path is not a…
00:08:37.669 --> 00:08:46.220 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: a short destination. It's not a quick run around the bases and making it to home plate in an inning.
00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:48.529 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: It's more of a marathon.
00:08:49.640 --> 00:09:02.040 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And the wonderful thing about the marathon is, even though it might take us through some dark valleys, it will also take us to some beautiful vistas and plateaus and mountains and peaks.
00:09:02.580 --> 00:09:08.160 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And it's up and down, it's organic, it's not linear.
00:09:09.330 --> 00:09:23.279 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And because it's not linear, that aha moment, that one thing that tips us over the edge, and brings us back to our hearts, and brings us to a place where we just…
00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:25.590 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Feel good to be alive.
00:09:26.390 --> 00:09:28.789 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: It could happen at any moment.
00:09:29.240 --> 00:09:32.330 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Nobody knows when it's gonna happen for us.
00:09:35.280 --> 00:09:37.050 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: But until it does…
00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:45.640 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: You know, we just need to keep on the path and keep moving forward, putting one foot in front of the other.
00:09:46.220 --> 00:09:51.640 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And doing the best we can as we continue to move forward.
00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:59.759 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And I know for some people listening, just like for the gentleman I was working with a couple of years ago, that's…
00:10:00.060 --> 00:10:03.139 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Might not be what you want to hear today.
00:10:05.550 --> 00:10:09.590 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: But it's the truth, and I think that's the most important thing.
00:10:09.690 --> 00:10:13.379 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: To really be honest with ourselves and each other.
00:10:14.460 --> 00:10:16.690 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: About what it truly takes.
00:10:17.060 --> 00:10:18.790 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: To find our way home.
00:10:19.250 --> 00:10:20.700 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And that's,
00:10:21.160 --> 00:10:37.280 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: that's why I do this show, that's why I do the work that I do, and that's why I bring on amazing guests like the two gentlemen who are coming on today. So, that's my blog post. Again, it is entitled, Healing from Our Trauma is a Slow Process Not to be Rushed.
00:10:37.500 --> 00:10:51.400 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And you can always find my blog on my… did you see it? The brand new Conscious Consultant website, theconsciousconsultant.com, and of course, on the station's website at talkradio.nyc slash blog.
00:10:51.730 --> 00:11:00.820 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: All right, now, it is my extreme pleasure, to welcome to the show, Joe Moore and Kyle Buller.
00:11:00.990 --> 00:11:08.590 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Co-founders of Psychedelics Today, one of the world's leading platforms for psychedelic media, education, and thought leadership.
00:11:08.640 --> 00:11:26.390 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Since launching Psychedelics Today in 2015, Joe and Kyle have been at the forefront of shaping informed, responsible conversations around psychedelic medicine, bringing science… bridging science, spirituality, culture, and personal transformation.
00:11:26.390 --> 00:11:33.390 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Joe brings over two decades of experience spanning psychedelic study, technology, and large-scale project management.
00:11:33.390 --> 00:11:46.880 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: A seasoned speaker and podcast host, he's deeply engaged in conversations around drug policy, environmentalism, and ethical use of psychedelics in both medical and personal growth contexts.
00:11:46.880 --> 00:12:04.519 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Kyle's path into this work began with a profound near-death experience at age 16. Oh, I want to know more about that. An initiation that led him into deep exploration of non-ordinary states of consciousness, transpersonal psychology, somatic healing, and breathwork.
00:12:04.520 --> 00:12:15.350 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: With a background in clinical mental health counseling and years of experience supporting people in crisis, Kyle brings a grounded, compassionate lens to integrating and healing.
00:12:15.980 --> 00:12:19.549 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Welcome, Joe. Welcome, Kyle, to the Conscious Consultant Hour.
00:12:19.860 --> 00:12:21.230 Kyle Buller (He/Him): Thanks for having us here.
00:12:21.330 --> 00:12:22.590 Joe Moore: Appreciate it.
00:12:22.770 --> 00:12:41.450 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure. Okay, Kyle, I'm going to start with you, just because I've had so many people on my show who've had near-death experiences. I always love to learn just a little bit about it. What happened, and what was the experience like that it was so profound for you that it changed your life?
00:12:41.940 --> 00:13:01.450 Kyle Buller (He/Him): try to give everybody the short version, for time's sake. I got in a really bad snowboarding accident. I was, night skiing on New Year's Eve, way back when, and I went around a turn, there was an amount of snow in a blind spot I didn't see, hit it, flew through the air, noticed my snowboard hit, shoulder hit, heard a loud pop, I thought I broke a rib.
00:13:01.450 --> 00:13:17.399 Kyle Buller (He/Him): But by the time they got me down to the first aid, I was looking a little pale, my pulse was low, so they said I probably had internal injuries. And thankfully, they ended up, getting a medevac and got me out of there quickly, and I just learned, maybe, like, a few years ago.
00:13:17.400 --> 00:13:23.000 Kyle Buller (He/Him): One of the first responders, like, looked at my dad and said, you know, your son's in his golden hour, and he may not make it.
00:13:23.090 --> 00:13:24.030 Kyle Buller (He/Him): Whoa. So…
00:13:24.090 --> 00:13:35.720 Kyle Buller (He/Him): I ended up rupturing my spleen, and I lost about 5 to 5.5 pints of blood internally. So by the time I got to the hospital, I could hear the doctors and nurses say, you know, I can't get a pulse on them, and…
00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:48.589 Kyle Buller (He/Him): I started to have this experience of, like, being outside my body, in my body, and they rushed me to, get a CAT scan to figure out what was going on, and it was in that moment
00:13:48.590 --> 00:13:55.739 Kyle Buller (He/Him): I just heard a voice that was kind of guiding me through death, saying, you know, relax into this, you're going home.
00:13:55.750 --> 00:14:05.639 Kyle Buller (He/Him): This is just a transition, and the more that you struggle with it, the harder it's gonna be, so the more that you can relax into this experience, the easier the transition will be.
00:14:05.640 --> 00:14:23.170 Kyle Buller (He/Him): And that was a really beautiful experience. I felt, like, a lot of love, and it was, like, yeah, a lot of, like, beauty and bliss. And then, yeah, thankfully, they were able to, operate quickly and save me. Doctors said if I came in, like, 5 minutes later, I probably would have been dead on arrival.
00:14:23.230 --> 00:14:29.409 Kyle Buller (He/Him): So, really grateful for everybody responding appropriately and quickly that day.
00:14:30.820 --> 00:14:36.230 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And then after that experience, you were like, there's something more to life, I've gotta understand this?
00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:50.560 Kyle Buller (He/Him): Yeah, you know, I rode a high for a bit of, like, you know, thankfully I'm alive, and then kind of came crashing down, you know, I think just, seeing everything. I kind of use this analogy of, like, I woke up with, like, a new map.
00:14:50.560 --> 00:15:05.400 Kyle Buller (He/Him): of the world on my chest, and then I'm trying to navigate a new reality that most other people, like, aren't necessarily aware of or seeing. And, you know, being a young kid, too, trying to navigate that without elders or people that, like.
00:15:05.400 --> 00:15:29.689 Kyle Buller (He/Him): around me that could really understand what I was going through. I think it made it really isolating and lonely, and I think that's what made it come crashing down, where I just felt so alone in the process and didn't know how to navigate it. You know, everybody kept saying, well, you should just be thankful you're alive. And yes, I felt that way, but there was, like, you know, this psycho-spiritual thing unfolding in my life, and I just didn't have the support
00:15:29.690 --> 00:15:31.890 Kyle Buller (He/Him): around me to navigate it, so…
00:15:33.180 --> 00:15:38.780 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And how long did it take until you felt like You did find…
00:15:38.900 --> 00:15:42.080 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Some kind of path or guidance that moved you
00:15:42.230 --> 00:15:49.160 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: out of that feeling of isolation into something of, like, oh, okay, I know how to embody this and live in the world now.
00:15:49.800 --> 00:16:03.520 Kyle Buller (He/Him): I had a mushroom experience about, I think, 3 years later. That really opened me up, because it helped me to kind of, like, relive this near-death experience in a pretty unique way, and that got me curious, and then that started…
00:16:03.590 --> 00:16:08.830 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Opening up a path to want to study this stuff more, like, intellectually.
00:16:08.830 --> 00:16:22.470 Kyle Buller (He/Him): And I remember I was at, I did my undergrad in transpersonal psychology, and I was taking an eco-psych course, and, the teacher, was just, talking about some stuff, and I was like, I gotta go up and share my story with him, so…
00:16:22.470 --> 00:16:30.690 Kyle Buller (He/Him): I shared everything that was going on, from my near-death experience to these really profound psychedelic experiences, and he looked at me and he just said.
00:16:30.690 --> 00:16:37.740 Kyle Buller (He/Him): You know, if you grew up in a traditional culture, the elders would have stepped in and taught you this new way of being in the world, and this new way of seeing.
00:16:37.740 --> 00:16:58.149 Kyle Buller (He/Him): But unfortunately, you didn't, and you had to figure it out on your own. And that was, like, one of the first times I think I felt heard, in my experience, and that made me feel really supported. Like, I'm not actually going crazy. Like, there's other cultures, other traditions that might understand how to, like, work with these experiences, and so…
00:16:58.150 --> 00:17:04.179 Kyle Buller (He/Him): that was really kind of opening, the path up more. I think I was 22 at that time.
00:17:04.180 --> 00:17:05.879 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Oh, cool, cool.
00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:13.170 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And Joe, I'm assuming that your path was not quite as dramatic as that?
00:17:14.910 --> 00:17:19.460 Joe Moore: Yeah… Definitely a little bit more calm.
00:17:20.190 --> 00:17:23.470 Joe Moore: Yeah,
00:17:25.349 --> 00:17:31.710 Joe Moore: I'll try to figure out the compressed way to get you here up to 2026. So,
00:17:33.810 --> 00:17:53.280 Joe Moore: interning in software since 16, started a computer science degree, touched a Philosophy 101 class in my freshman year. There was a reference to Stan Groff's LSD psychotherapy in a signed reading called Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot. It was a pretty dramatic scene that looked like an Exorcist thing.
00:17:53.280 --> 00:18:00.700 Joe Moore: Or Poltergeist, and I'm like, oh, this is wild, college is supposed to teach me truthful things, right?
00:18:00.700 --> 00:18:07.810 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: So, if this is true, I want to know. I kind of want to call bullshit, but I want to do some good work here. So I went to the library.
00:18:07.810 --> 00:18:25.900 Joe Moore: small state school in New Hampshire, Plymouth State, and we had 3 or 4 books by Stan Groff in the library, which is extraordinary. And, I was off to the races as a very underprepared freshman reading Groff, not knowing what the hell was going on. And,
00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:38.770 Joe Moore: was really trying. Nobody could speak to me about it. So I found some internet groups and found a mentor in Vermont. Kyle and I got connected through the folks at Dream Shadow, Lenny and Elizabeth Gibson. And,
00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:44.619 Joe Moore: That was some kind of… holotropic mentorship, we'll call it.
00:18:44.750 --> 00:18:59.130 Joe Moore: outside of my philosophy training, I bailed on computer science and took up philosophy pretty aggressively, and, you know, kept working in software. Just turns out you don't need a degree. And then,
00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:17.600 Joe Moore: Yeah, that was kind of getting me started. I started doing a lot of holotropic breathwork, started after college coordinating a lot of community in Boston around ayahuasca and psychedelics, and getting people to actually kind of build community, because I saw a lot… a handful of people going pretty far, but having nowhere to land.
00:19:17.910 --> 00:19:21.650 Joe Moore: And so I was doing that under the aegis of, Evolver.
00:19:21.780 --> 00:19:25.120 Joe Moore: Which was partnered with, Reality Sandwich way back, it's a whole different…
00:19:25.120 --> 00:19:28.079 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: thing now. Yeah, Daniel Trex group, yeah.
00:19:28.270 --> 00:19:43.609 Joe Moore: Right. Jonathan Talot Phillips and a bunch of others, and that was fun. I hosted an ayahuasca Monologues event with Adam Ellenbos and Jonathan Talot Phillips in Cambridge, Mass, at this gorgeous theater, which is a really fun kind of capstone to my time in Boston. Left.
00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:54.280 Joe Moore: for Colorado, tried to do the same thing in Boulder, it was too crowded, couldn't hang in Denver, moved up to the mountains, met Kyle shortly after, and we started…
00:19:54.300 --> 00:20:11.800 Joe Moore: getting really active on the internet with psychedelics today after a bit of time. Kyle was trying to talk me into going to his grad program he was building out at Burlington College, and I was trying to talk him out of going to college, or getting a graduate degree, because I… I still have a hard time with the value of graduate degrees.
00:20:11.800 --> 00:20:12.360 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: No.
00:20:12.360 --> 00:20:21.309 Joe Moore: You know, that's, how we got here. Yeah, and I've had some big experiences, but, everything was kind of done.
00:20:21.310 --> 00:20:33.660 Joe Moore: kind of the reverse. I did a lot of holotropic breathwork, then I did some ayahuasca, then some mushrooms, but then it turned into a recreational thing, where I was doing a lot of fish concerts and jam bands in Denver, and all that kind of stuff.
00:20:33.660 --> 00:20:41.839 Joe Moore: So it was like, do the healing and then do the celebration, maybe? But, you know, I was definitely doing too much for a bit.
00:20:41.840 --> 00:20:52.890 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yeah, as I think many people who discover psychedelics, you know, kind of, like, dive into it, and like, wow, this is amazing, and do a little too much, and they're like, oh no, I need some time.
00:20:52.890 --> 00:21:02.909 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Just out of curiosity, where did the idea for creating psychedelics today, like, what was the inspiration, what was the spark that got you two to say, oh, let's do this thing together?
00:21:03.560 --> 00:21:08.750 Joe Moore: Kyle and I were chatting, and we're like, we want to do something together, what is it?
00:21:08.970 --> 00:21:13.410 Joe Moore: I had already had a few podcasts in different arenas, and…
00:21:13.660 --> 00:21:24.180 Joe Moore: In 2016, right? So we're coming up on 10 years old. We're like, let's just start recording our teacher, because he's getting older, and he's got so much great stuff to say. Lenny Gibson is…
00:21:25.020 --> 00:21:36.470 Joe Moore: You can't even start to, like, talk about his body of work, like, in a skillful way. But the integration of philosophy, psychology, extraordinary experience.
00:21:36.660 --> 00:21:42.530 Joe Moore: was just very helpful, and we wanted to capture that. And so there was that, and then there is this thing around…
00:21:42.710 --> 00:21:53.659 Joe Moore: A lot of the conferences had some of the same voices getting platformed all the time, and we're like, we know there's other interesting people out here. Let's start bringing that forward.
00:21:53.660 --> 00:21:59.790 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And then Kyle, correct me if I'm wrong, I think the third part was trying to get transpersonal psychology to be more forward.
00:21:59.790 --> 00:22:00.990 Joe Moore: In the environment?
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:09.020 Kyle Buller (He/Him): Yeah, yeah, bringing, like, transpersonal psychology breathwork forward into, like, the psychedelic, arena, and
00:22:09.050 --> 00:22:24.159 Kyle Buller (He/Him): something that we were saying that was kind of like a little phrase we would hear a lot of times, like, the real conversations and the real meat at conferences are the conversations out in the hallway. And it's like, we kind of wanted to, you know, create those hallway conversations.
00:22:24.570 --> 00:22:43.009 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, beautiful, beautiful. All right, so we're going to take our first break. When we come back, let's just talk about, like, what is the mission of psychedelics today? You know, how do you serve people, and what is the need that you see that you're filling for people today, okay?
00:22:44.110 --> 00:22:58.919 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: All right, so everyone, please stay tuned. You're listening to the Conscious Consultant Hour, Awakening Humanity. We do this every week. This week is special on Thursday. We're moving to Wednesdays next week, so from now on, it'll be on Wednesdays at 12 noon Eastern time.
00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:07.669 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And we're talking this hour with Joe Moore and Kyle Buller, co-founders of Psychedelics Today, and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:24:23.510 --> 00:24:33.860 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And welcome back to the Conscious Consultant, Our Awakening Humanity. So Joe, what would you say is the mission for psychedelics today?
00:24:35.380 --> 00:24:50.949 Joe Moore: I used to have this memorized, but we're really trying to bring forward this new vision of what does a psychedelically literate and activated humanity look like.
00:24:51.110 --> 00:24:55.389 Joe Moore: And what does that, allow us to do and to become?
00:24:55.490 --> 00:25:11.490 Joe Moore: And so, I think we're not just looking at psychotherapy and healing, we're looking at creating new potentials, like, creative problem solving, new ways of being, things along those lines. Kyle, did I kind of capture that well enough?
00:25:11.650 --> 00:25:26.499 Kyle Buller (He/Him): I think so, yeah. I forget our original mission statement around, like, human potential, and trying to, like, also help to normalize exceptional experience in our culture, because I think, like, when the culture starts to normalize these experiences, then we can really…
00:25:26.690 --> 00:25:42.420 Kyle Buller (He/Him): think about integration as well, right? Instead of, like, oh, these are… experiences aren't real, or oh, that experience is, you know, quote-unquote crazy, right? It's like, how do we help to normalize these experiences and understand that it's within the range of, like, the human experience?
00:25:42.940 --> 00:25:56.800 Joe Moore: We had a friend, Sam, working at a clinical trial for psilocybin, and, kind of had a number of endogenous, mystical experiences that were kind of knock-your-socks-off kind of experiences. No drugs, right?
00:25:56.800 --> 00:25:58.410 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And.
00:25:59.130 --> 00:26:14.529 Joe Moore: a major problem in our space is this. One of the leads, a psychiatrist, psychologist working on the trial, tried to biologicalize it and minimize the experience to, like, you know, that can just happen.
00:26:14.890 --> 00:26:24.229 Joe Moore: And, like, it doesn't mean anything. And it's like, that, to me, is a fundamental thing that we need to get over. It's like, people have experiences, and they mean something.
00:26:24.300 --> 00:26:37.729 Joe Moore: Or not, but, like, they mean something to the person, to the organism that had the experience. And, like, to just sweep that under the rug because of science? It's not fair. It's not okay. And we need to fix that.
00:26:38.250 --> 00:26:56.260 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yeah, it's kind of like, in the past, in ancient times, like, science and spirituality were together. They were like one study, and then during the Renaissance and Industrial Revolution, it kind of split apart, and now it sort of sounds like you're trying to bring it back together.
00:26:56.840 --> 00:27:03.440 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: So Kyle, what is it that Psychedelics Today actually offers for people?
00:27:03.830 --> 00:27:19.130 Kyle Buller (He/Him): Yeah, we offer our media, which is, like, the podcast and blogs and articles and newsletters, and then I would say, like, a main focus of our, our thing is in education. So we offer a lot of educational programs.
00:27:19.130 --> 00:27:24.679 Kyle Buller (He/Him): From, you know, free little things that people can get into, and, like, just kind of dipping their toes in.
00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:41.089 Kyle Buller (He/Him): to, shorter, like, maybe 9, 8-week courses, to then we have a full-length, year-long program. Really trying to, yeah, as I like to say, like, help people develop psychedelic literacy and competency so that they can go back into the world and…
00:27:41.090 --> 00:27:59.170 Kyle Buller (He/Him): Be of service, whether, you know, you're a clinician, a therapist, and you have clients that you're working with that are talking about psychedelics, or maybe you're going out and wanting to be an advocate, or an educator, a community leader, but having a good foundation, for really kind of understanding, yeah, the science.
00:27:59.170 --> 00:28:06.030 Kyle Buller (He/Him): the spiritual aspects of psychedelics and all that stuff. So, really helping people to develop those literacy and competencies.
00:28:06.520 --> 00:28:18.000 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: One of the things that I've seen from going to the Horizons conference that happens here in New York, I've been there several years, I went to the Psychedelic Sciences, not the most recent one, but the one before.
00:28:19.690 --> 00:28:35.389 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: is… is… while there are some people talking about, sort of, the spiritual aspect of working with psychedelics, so much of it was around the medical, right? It was healing trauma, PTSD, OCD, like, all these diagnoses.
00:28:35.610 --> 00:28:42.610 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And it almost feels like… At least in the general,
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:48.180 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: efforts that are being made to legalize it. It's all just about medical, medical, medical.
00:28:48.310 --> 00:28:49.610 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And it… and it…
00:28:49.710 --> 00:29:07.579 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: feels like it's lost its connection to the spiritual side of psychedelics, which it sounds like the two of you are trying to bring back together. Why do you think that split is happening, and do you think that we can really bring it back together?
00:29:08.630 --> 00:29:09.560 Joe Moore: Mmm…
00:29:10.550 --> 00:29:21.129 Joe Moore: Such a complicated question. I almost hate to use the term spirituality, but it's, you know, it's a, what, a more integral view of reality, perhaps?
00:29:21.260 --> 00:29:29.610 Joe Moore: And that's kind of why, you know, integrative, or holistic, or things like those, kind of… whatever, you know, spiritual practice is a thing. Anyway…
00:29:29.710 --> 00:29:38.280 Joe Moore: This kind of stuff happened with the mind-body split, you know, the Industrial Revolution, the French Enlightenment, Rene Descartes.
00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:44.280 Joe Moore: Isaac Newton, like, you know, things are not…
00:29:44.430 --> 00:30:03.229 Joe Moore: as precise and mathematical in reality as we have been trained to believe they are. You know, they're a lot more gooey and fluid, and you know, this is why I'm really excited about, sorry, philosophy, and the intersection of philosophy with psychology, because we can actually kind of
00:30:04.470 --> 00:30:10.440 Joe Moore: Become more nuanced with our understanding of reality, and… Scientists have been trained.
00:30:10.710 --> 00:30:19.640 Joe Moore: you know, with calculus and statistics, and, you know, the world is calculus and statistics, when it really isn't. Like, calculus kind of, like.
00:30:19.870 --> 00:30:28.930 Joe Moore: implies a really smooth curve through nature, and it's really, like, more jumpy. You know, there's little gaps between things, and
00:30:29.100 --> 00:30:30.240 Joe Moore: Yeah, so…
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:43.380 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Indeed, like, the scientists who are exploring quantum mechanics and quantum physics, there's actually so much that they're finding that's in alignment with what ancient mystics have been saying for millennia.
00:30:43.930 --> 00:31:02.820 Joe Moore: Yeah, yeah, so for Jeff Capra and his work kind of kicked that off ages ago. Irvin Laszlo, I have not read his work yet, but he's kind of holding that mantle, and we're seeing kind of ions like Dean Radin, and other kind of similar projects come forward now, like, I think 2026 is the year of consciousness.
00:31:02.940 --> 00:31:16.400 Joe Moore: quote me on that later. But, yeah, I think we're gonna see a lot of movement. Michael Pollan's book's coming out. I think UC Berkeley's gonna have a conference on consciousness. So, scientists and researchers and, you know, people who are…
00:31:17.470 --> 00:31:30.380 Joe Moore: Helping inform how we can do better new science are gonna have to be informed by, kind of, quantum worldviews, process philosophy-style worldviews, where things aren't just, kind of.
00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:46.740 Joe Moore: XY grids and statistical plots, there are really important data on the far edges that come forward in research that we should be digging more into. You know, why… why did that person have such a strong reaction in the psilocybin clinical trial to Benadryl, for instance? Why did that look so much like
00:31:47.410 --> 00:31:49.490 Joe Moore: A psilocybin mystical experience.
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:53.259 Joe Moore: And they actually had Benadryl. Like, that kind of stuff's bonkers.
00:31:53.680 --> 00:32:03.970 Joe Moore: you know, we… you know, we want to call that placebo, but that… that's… that's like a really strong effect. Really, really strong effect from Benadryl. Er, sorry, diphenhydramine.
00:32:04.070 --> 00:32:05.060 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And…
00:32:05.070 --> 00:32:08.190 Joe Moore: We need to restructure how we're doing studies.
00:32:08.660 --> 00:32:18.959 Joe Moore: These need to be, like, really rigorously looked at. So we should be talking to folks like Rupert Sheldrake and others who have been at this for ages to say, how do we want to inform science now?
00:32:19.360 --> 00:32:26.470 Joe Moore: And, like, perhaps, where is money best spent on science? Because we can keep replicating studies, which we should.
00:32:26.650 --> 00:32:31.729 Joe Moore: but also… We should keep trying to expand what our paradigm is.
00:32:31.940 --> 00:32:32.670 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yeah.
00:32:32.800 --> 00:32:47.930 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: I heard a while ago that a lot of the pharmaceutical companies had to abandon the idea of testing their drugs against placebos, because the placebo effect became, like, more than 20% effective.
00:32:47.930 --> 00:32:53.509 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: So it wasn't good. So then they just started testing, like, the newer drug against an older drug.
00:32:53.510 --> 00:32:54.860 Joe Moore: You mean in psychedelics?
00:32:55.240 --> 00:33:00.130 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: No, in regular… in regular psychopharmacology.
00:33:01.490 --> 00:33:17.910 Kyle Buller (He/Him): I think there was an article that just came out, one of our students just sent it over to me about this problem in psychedelics, too, where actually somebody was getting some healing benefit from a placebo, and it, like, has kind of thrown stuff off, but, you know, also looking at, like, a study like psychedelics, it's like.
00:33:17.910 --> 00:33:24.470 Kyle Buller (He/Him): You know, my critique is, you know, when does somebody get, like, 6 hours of focus attention on you?
00:33:24.470 --> 00:33:24.800 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: you know.
00:33:24.800 --> 00:33:32.469 Kyle Buller (He/Him): Like, that's a big deal, for somebody that may never have had therapy or, like, a supportive container to then…
00:33:32.580 --> 00:33:42.279 Kyle Buller (He/Him): have all this, like, attention on you, you know? Of course, somebody's probably gonna feel a little bit better to some degree. So it's like, how do you root out those variables?
00:33:42.410 --> 00:33:43.210 Kyle Buller (He/Him): But…
00:33:43.340 --> 00:33:49.490 Kyle Buller (He/Him): You know, I think, to your point, also, like, how do we get to the medicalization, right? Like, these drugs were illegal, too.
00:33:49.500 --> 00:34:05.129 Kyle Buller (He/Him): And so, I think Rick Doblin was really the one that started to, like, you know, look at, like, how do we bring this back? And, trying to bring MDMA through the FDA process and through that. And so, you know, that becomes more of this medical,
00:34:05.250 --> 00:34:17.250 Kyle Buller (He/Him): paradigm when we're looking at drugs from this perspective. And, you know, our teacher… we actually wrote a book chapter on this about, like, the medicalization, and, like, what happens if…
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:34.870 Kyle Buller (He/Him): you know, the movement took more of a spiritual or religious approach, it probably wouldn't have passed through, even though, like, here in the States, we do have, like, religious freedom. But there's something, I think, a little bit more rigorous about the medicalization, and that's helping to counter the taboo and stigmatization.
00:34:34.870 --> 00:34:39.609 Kyle Buller (He/Him): That, you know, we've been experiencing for decades around these substances, so…
00:34:41.239 --> 00:34:44.339 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: So, I mean, how do you take, sort of, this…
00:34:44.620 --> 00:35:00.579 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: The new understanding of physics and of reality, whatever kind of spiritual belief systems, but how do we bring that into working with psychedelics in a grounded way that it actually supports people in their process?
00:35:01.350 --> 00:35:05.129 Joe Moore: Medicine and science are super different.
00:35:05.890 --> 00:35:14.509 Joe Moore: And we have to start there. So, science can inform how medicine is practiced and helps add new tools to the doctor's toolkit.
00:35:14.580 --> 00:35:17.039 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Right? So, like.
00:35:17.770 --> 00:35:31.360 Joe Moore: people look at the MAPS clinical trials and think that's medicine. It's like, that's, you know, very much not medicine. It's very much research, and it's super different from how any physician would want to practice, you know, like, on their own. So…
00:35:31.530 --> 00:35:36.840 Joe Moore: I think, Sam, understanding the philosophy of science, like, I think…
00:35:37.540 --> 00:35:43.880 Joe Moore: we need to just spend time. Like, let's actually do a couple years, heavy-duty philosophy of science.
00:35:44.750 --> 00:35:51.320 Joe Moore: And, kind of, all of us kind of get on a different page about what work needs to be
00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:54.849 Joe Moore: How we need to reframe what we're looking at.
00:35:55.120 --> 00:35:58.189 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: You know, I don't know if you've heard, like, kind of this…
00:35:58.190 --> 00:36:08.439 Joe Moore: new stuff on, like, microtubules and, you know, how those, check out the second season of Telepathy Tapes from your home city of New York.
00:36:08.980 --> 00:36:17.480 Joe Moore: good, and there's some interesting stuff in there, but check out microtubules later as, like, a mediator of consciousness. It's an interesting concept.
00:36:18.550 --> 00:36:25.080 Joe Moore: And it's, I don't have it well enough dialed to explain it, but… So…
00:36:25.570 --> 00:36:30.930 Joe Moore: you know, what do we know, what do we not know? What are the limits to the scientific process?
00:36:31.080 --> 00:36:36.620 Joe Moore: And we need to just own that. Like, it's okay that there's limits to this method.
00:36:36.750 --> 00:36:44.580 Joe Moore: Given how bonkers the world is. And, you know, to bring Terrence McKenna in, as if monkeys with sharp teeth
00:36:44.900 --> 00:36:51.300 Joe Moore: Have a chance at understanding reality to the level we kind of are… Pretending to.
00:36:51.530 --> 00:36:51.920 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yeah.
00:36:51.920 --> 00:37:11.059 Joe Moore: You know, so we have a lot of work to do on a fundamental level. And yeah, we can keep doing research and keep making some progress here and there, but I think we need to start asking some really… and I'm not asking any particular scientist to stop their work. I just, like, let's actually step back and get slightly meta about the work we're doing.
00:37:11.080 --> 00:37:13.280 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And then that can inform.
00:37:13.580 --> 00:37:19.860 Joe Moore: how medicine is practiced. I'm not the clinician in the room, but, like, from a doctor's perspective, it's like…
00:37:20.220 --> 00:37:23.790 Joe Moore: Are we… Doctors are in a hard spot.
00:37:24.170 --> 00:37:30.910 Joe Moore: Clinicians are in a hard spot. Insurance drives, in America, how medicine is done. It's not about optimal outcomes, ever.
00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:32.620 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yeah, yeah.
00:37:33.950 --> 00:37:50.099 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Kyle, while, like, the legalization is in process, and we've got, you know, Colorado, Oregon, I think New Mexico now has legalized psilocybin, there's still a huge underground movement, right? I think
00:37:50.120 --> 00:38:01.930 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Probably the majority of people are, you know, upwards of 70-80% of people there. Their introduction to psychedelics is working with an underground facilitator.
00:38:02.560 --> 00:38:06.339 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: What can we do to help them
00:38:07.250 --> 00:38:18.009 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: I don't know, mainstream, or just people who don't have any experience with this, help them to take, sort of, the underground movement a little more seriously.
00:38:19.270 --> 00:38:29.819 Kyle Buller (He/Him): Yeah, right, because I think there's, like, a stigma there, too, right? And it's like, if we look at, like, where did a lot of our protocols come from, of, like, a lot of it…
00:38:29.820 --> 00:38:46.269 Kyle Buller (He/Him): also came from the underground, came from a lot of also Indigenous perspectives, right? And, you know, it also, I think, helps to, provide some more access. And I kind of see it as, like, you know, you're talking about these, like, states that legalized.
00:38:46.510 --> 00:38:55.919 Kyle Buller (He/Him): I like to see a really diverse, like, playing field, like an ecosystem, right? Like, the legal model's gonna be really important for some people. Like, folks that have, like.
00:38:56.310 --> 00:39:08.719 Kyle Buller (He/Him): fear of, like, you know, having something legal and, like, having a regulated framework provides a little bit of trust for somebody. A lot of people aren't going to go into the underground because trying to find providers is really difficult.
00:39:08.720 --> 00:39:19.140 Kyle Buller (He/Him): You know, a lot of people just kind of lay under the radar, they're not always advertising. I mean, I don't know, nowadays people are advertising like crazy for certain things. I'm like, huh, alright, how are you guys getting away with some of this stuff?
00:39:19.140 --> 00:39:19.560 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yeah.
00:39:19.560 --> 00:39:40.609 Kyle Buller (He/Him): You know, people have higher risk tolerances. But, you know, sometimes, like, for some people, the trust just isn't there. They'd rather go to a clinic, they'd rather go to, like, a hospital setting. Maybe they do want to participate in research because they feel safer in that way. But there are so many folks that have been in the underground for decades that have been doing really, really wonderful work.
00:39:41.570 --> 00:39:59.079 Kyle Buller (He/Him): And, you know, again, like, some of those practices have really informed, like, protocols throughout the years and whatnot, so… But again, it's tricky. Like, a lot of people are also putting themselves a bit at risk by doing that, right? Like, thinking about, like, what state are you in?
00:39:59.080 --> 00:40:08.450 Kyle Buller (He/Him): Is it illegal? You know, Joe and I are both here in Colorado, where the rules and regulations have really loosened, over the past few years.
00:40:08.450 --> 00:40:32.789 Kyle Buller (He/Him): But, you know, that's not going to be accessible for everybody, and it does take a little bit of a higher risk tolerance to engage in the underground because of breaking the law. And that's something that we have to remember. You know, these are still Schedule 1 substances. Even for, you know, where it is legal or decriminalized, it's still, like, federally Schedule I.
00:40:32.820 --> 00:40:36.249 Kyle Buller (He/Him): And so, I think everybody is…
00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:45.540 Kyle Buller (He/Him): that's involved in this space is a bit of a risk-taker in some way, shape, or form. And I think it really just all comes down to risk tolerance.
00:40:47.890 --> 00:40:56.490 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Joe, I'm curious, when people come to your website, to Psychedelics Today, and they're looking for information, what do you feel like
00:40:56.720 --> 00:41:06.100 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: most people, I know it's probably too generalized a question, but what do you think most people are looking for? What kind of education are they looking to get?
00:41:09.900 --> 00:41:11.310 Joe Moore: Let's see…
00:41:14.560 --> 00:41:30.789 Joe Moore: I don't have a great answer for you, Sam. So, people could be coming from all walks of life, right? So, anywhere from a psychiatrist with, like, fully endowed professorship, to, like, somebody whose son took mushrooms yesterday and they found out.
00:41:30.790 --> 00:41:31.250 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Mmm.
00:41:31.250 --> 00:41:45.730 Joe Moore: Like, it's such a huge range of people that psychedelics today serves. We have content that's being used in universities, we have content that's informing likely legal cases, you know, or, like, how…
00:41:45.770 --> 00:41:53.970 Joe Moore: 750-something episodes, and a whole bunch of blogs and articles, and, you know, free classes, and all sorts of stuff like that, so… we…
00:41:54.240 --> 00:42:02.319 Joe Moore: We have greatly informed The world about these materials, substances, and…
00:42:03.230 --> 00:42:19.610 Joe Moore: who… who… we want to serve everybody, but that's kind of a… it's a great way to do a mediocre job, so what we're trying to do more so is people with a professional interest in the space, let's try to get them onboarded and to become professionals in the space in whatever capacity that is.
00:42:19.610 --> 00:42:23.930 Joe Moore: So we want them to have a really broad understanding of
00:42:23.980 --> 00:42:40.850 Joe Moore: psychedelics and substances more generally. We want to have them really spun up on the drug war, and why we need to end it, and why it's actually killing people in a not great way. And that we can do a lot better around psychedelic policy, drug policy, and as a…
00:42:40.980 --> 00:42:42.740 Joe Moore: collective, so…
00:42:42.890 --> 00:42:48.049 Joe Moore: that's kind of what we're aiming towards with our Vital program, too. How do we have, like, the next generous.
00:42:48.050 --> 00:42:51.980 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Next generation of holistic, highly informed, drug-agnostic.
00:42:51.980 --> 00:42:54.909 Joe Moore: Potentially technique-agnostic facilitators.
00:42:54.990 --> 00:42:59.429 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Nice, nice. So, it's almost like, although you…
00:42:59.980 --> 00:43:19.419 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Everybody, from the layperson who just wants to understand it, to the professional who wants to maybe integrate it into their practice. You're surveying for one, but you're more leaning in the direction of working with the professionals, because they're the ones who are going to help bring access to all these people who are looking for it more.
00:43:19.420 --> 00:43:19.900 Kyle Buller (He/Him): Correct.
00:43:19.900 --> 00:43:26.730 Joe Moore: And when I say professionals, I want to be a little bit more broad than facilitators. It's not just that, it's like the accountants, the designers. Kyle.
00:43:27.630 --> 00:43:38.949 Kyle Buller (He/Him): Yeah, just as you're saying, like, professionals can be a lot of different things. Folks, like, switching careers, they want to, like, you know, integrate this into their life in a professional way, right? So, like…
00:43:38.950 --> 00:43:48.940 Kyle Buller (He/Him): Yeah. Yeah, we did, like, an analysis a while ago. We did have, like, 3 categories, but again, it's pretty general. It's, like, the psychedelic curious, the psychedelic professional.
00:43:48.940 --> 00:43:55.319 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And then you had, like, the Psychonauts, that are just deeply, deeply enmeshed in this world for quite a while.
00:43:55.750 --> 00:44:07.650 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yeah, I remember one of the things I thought was so funny was when I was at Psychedelic Sciences, and there was one session, I forget what it was about, but, like, people were asking questions about how to get involved in the industry, and they were like.
00:44:07.650 --> 00:44:18.320 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Well, you know, if you design a website, if you do branding, you could do it for someone who works with this stuff, you know? Like, there's all the ancillary things that, just like any business or any…
00:44:18.370 --> 00:44:28.919 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Individual offering something that they need all kinds of services, that you don't have to be the person who's serving the sacrament or the substance to the person.
00:44:29.780 --> 00:44:40.589 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Okay, let's take our last break, and then when we come back, let's talk about what are the needs you see today, and how are you looking to fill those needs?
00:44:40.590 --> 00:44:54.710 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: around the psychedelic industry. And also, I wanted to know, I meant to ask you before about domestic versus international, like, how much is it just… are you focused just on the United States versus the world at large, okay?
00:44:55.270 --> 00:45:06.879 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: So everyone, please stay tuned. You're listening to The Conscious Consultant Hour, Awakening Humanity, and we'll be right back with our guests, Joe Moore and Kyle Butler of Psychedelics Today in just a moment.
00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:16.219 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Okay, gentlemen, so I'll pitch this out to either one of you.
00:46:16.470 --> 00:46:18.109 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: What do you see as…
00:46:18.240 --> 00:46:32.140 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: as the needs today? What do people need to know around this whole topic to make a better informed decision about whether it's right for them, and whether this is something they should engage in?
00:46:34.930 --> 00:46:46.939 Kyle Buller (He/Him): That's a good question. Yeah, it's so nuanced, right? So individual. You know, I think a lot of people are reading headlines and really wanting to dive in, because, you know, I think
00:46:47.100 --> 00:47:05.689 Kyle Buller (He/Him): pointing to your blog earlier, I think it's, you know, you bring up, like, a really important point about, like, you know, people just want this magic bullet, this pill, they want healing quick and fast, and psychedelics have kind of been portrayed that way. And that's not always the case, right? Like, I think taking it slow.
00:47:05.690 --> 00:47:12.090 Kyle Buller (He/Him): And thinking if it is right for you, right? Sometimes psychedelics can be really destabilizing.
00:47:12.090 --> 00:47:22.259 Kyle Buller (He/Him): For some folks. And, there's something I always say, that I learned from some of my colleagues, Ito Cohen and Deanna Rogers, like, are you ready to shake the ground that you're on?
00:47:22.260 --> 00:47:42.199 Kyle Buller (He/Him): And maybe if you aren't in the place to shake the ground, you don't feel like you don't have a good foundation to do that, like, maybe it's not time to do it. But there's so much out there now, right? Like, access to these medicines and drugs seemed… I mean, you know, you can look at Instagram, you know, you have these folks selling stuff.
00:47:42.200 --> 00:47:48.859 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: You go to head shops that are selling weird chocolate bars with random chemicals in it, right? So…
00:47:48.860 --> 00:47:51.380 Kyle Buller (He/Him): There's a lot of, like, just…
00:47:51.660 --> 00:48:00.820 Kyle Buller (He/Him): yeah, information that people should know about. Like, just because people are, like, selling this on the sidewalk, which, you know, we say sometimes, people selling, like, mushroom bars, it's like…
00:48:00.820 --> 00:48:14.670 Kyle Buller (He/Him): that might not necessarily be psilocybin, right? You might actually be taking another compound there. And then around, like, dosing, right? Like, Joe and I just went to a psychedelic cup down in Denver a couple months ago, and…
00:48:14.730 --> 00:48:37.599 Kyle Buller (He/Him): they had all the testing there, and I mean, it was wild to think about, like, oh, I'm gonna take a gram of mushrooms, and thinking, like, that's equal across the board. There was one mushroom, I forget what the ratio was, it was, like, up to, like, 35 milligrams per gram, and thinking about, like, clinical trials, they usually do 25 milligrams of psilocybin.
00:48:37.610 --> 00:48:52.550 Kyle Buller (He/Him): And so 1 gram of mushrooms has more than, you know, than the dose in these clinical trials where they are doing these high doses. And so there's a lot of, like, kind of nuanced stuff around that, of, like, just trying to understand the landscape, like.
00:48:52.550 --> 00:49:16.260 Kyle Buller (He/Him): you know, I think a question that we get often is, like, what drugs should we take, right? Is it MDMA? Is it mushrooms? Is it ayahuasca? Is it this? You know, I've been seeing all this stuff, I don't know where to start. And yeah, again, and I think that's gonna come down to somebody's individual decision, around, like, is this right for me? And there's lots of other really great practices and techniques to dive into beforehand.
00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:32.599 Kyle Buller (He/Him): You know, find a therapist to work with, find somebody that does somatic work. Joe and I are obviously biased towards breathwork as a really great way to dip your toes in first, to build some somatic resiliency and somatic practices before taking the deep dive.
00:49:32.610 --> 00:49:41.450 Kyle Buller (He/Him): So, yeah, I don't know, there's definitely a lot there, and it does get really nuanced, depending on, like, how people are trying to approach this stuff, right?
00:49:41.980 --> 00:49:57.219 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yeah, and Joe, I wanted to ask you, you know, we brought up a couple of times Indigenous cultures, and I've had people on my show talk about honoring the Indigenous cultures, and they're definitely, I feel, can be a lot more that we can
00:49:57.220 --> 00:50:04.320 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Do to truly honor these tribes who've kept these traditions alive through generations of persecution.
00:50:04.520 --> 00:50:19.099 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: But I hear all too often people deciding to go down to some retreat center in Peru or Costa Rica and doing, like, 4 nights of ayahuasca right off the bat, and they've never even smoked pot.
00:50:19.100 --> 00:50:28.909 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And that's not always the safest thing to do. And I'm just wondering, when people hear this, and they're thinking, oh yeah, I want to do something big like that, like.
00:50:29.450 --> 00:50:36.449 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: What… what can we do to inform people about how to make a safer, healthier choice for themselves?
00:50:40.310 --> 00:50:46.959 Joe Moore: Hmm… I encourage people to go a little bit slower than they…
00:50:48.260 --> 00:50:55.679 Joe Moore: are feeling, like, generally speaking. You know, oh, sure, you want to do that? Amazing. Why do you want to do that?
00:50:55.820 --> 00:50:56.620 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Hmm…
00:50:56.950 --> 00:51:03.680 Joe Moore: And, you know, that process of asking a series of whys, 5 whys, to get to, like, the bigger truth behind it all?
00:51:03.830 --> 00:51:04.280 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Right.
00:51:04.280 --> 00:51:06.900 Joe Moore: They might… Just have some sort of…
00:51:07.610 --> 00:51:23.070 Joe Moore: short circuit in their logic, helping them kind of say, oh yeah, 5 nights in a row is totally what I need. And that might not be true. I think having appropriate historical context is really helpful, so if we look at ayahuasca.
00:51:23.860 --> 00:51:26.909 Joe Moore: Traditionally, historically, from the best of our knowledge.
00:51:26.910 --> 00:51:28.350 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Westerners.
00:51:28.530 --> 00:51:30.750 Joe Moore: And their tourist dollars have…
00:51:31.640 --> 00:51:50.050 Joe Moore: transformed how ayahuasca shamanism looks to the Western consumer. It used to, in my understanding, it used to be the case that the ayahuascaro is the one consuming the medicine, and doing the magic, and healing, and it wasn't necessarily the customer, the client, the tourist.
00:51:50.300 --> 00:51:55.349 Joe Moore: doing… you know, consuming ayahuasca. So I think…
00:51:56.700 --> 00:52:07.560 Joe Moore: we're desperate, and we want healing, and we hurt so bad, so we're gonna do that thing. And that's a real… you know, how do we… when somebody's kind of in crisis, how do we then say, oh, wait a second, read these four books.
00:52:07.980 --> 00:52:08.350 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yeah.
00:52:08.350 --> 00:52:15.419 Joe Moore: You know, like, this is hard, and this is a cultural problem that we all need to collectively look at, is how do we…
00:52:15.680 --> 00:52:19.660 Joe Moore: How do we create more realistic storytelling?
00:52:20.370 --> 00:52:21.689 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Other than…
00:52:21.690 --> 00:52:22.930 Joe Moore: you know, I was at…
00:52:24.300 --> 00:52:35.580 Joe Moore: distasteful example, like, yeah, Richard Branson was hosting some ayahuasca thing at Branson's Islands, and, you know, it was really cool to be doing ayahuasca next to these really rich people, and I'm like.
00:52:36.270 --> 00:52:37.370 Joe Moore: What, like…
00:52:37.620 --> 00:52:50.920 Joe Moore: you know, you'll hear these stories sometimes, and like, that's not the point. And what is the point? And I think… I don't want to tell people what the point is, but I want people to have appropriate context for who they are when they go into different environments.
00:52:50.920 --> 00:52:57.379 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And, you know, what do tourist dollars do when you bring them into those zones? I'm not saying don't do it, either.
00:52:57.600 --> 00:53:03.220 Joe Moore: I have a chip in my shoulder about how often people fly to Peru to do medicine.
00:53:03.220 --> 00:53:04.110 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: It's like…
00:53:04.110 --> 00:53:10.140 Joe Moore: hey guys, what about the planet? You know? Cool that you can afford all that jet fuel, but…
00:53:10.470 --> 00:53:15.250 Joe Moore: Isn't there a more scalable, more ecologically appropriate way to do this?
00:53:15.500 --> 00:53:16.340 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yeah.
00:53:16.340 --> 00:53:19.050 Joe Moore: But Sam, you bring up being…
00:53:19.410 --> 00:53:26.439 Joe Moore: respectful of Indigenous cultures, and I think that's part of it. You know, unders… trying to do your best to understand
00:53:26.600 --> 00:53:30.920 Joe Moore: What they're doing now, and why, and where they came from, and what they were doing before.
00:53:31.300 --> 00:53:32.810 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yeah, yeah.
00:53:34.220 --> 00:53:49.179 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yeah, and also, some things that are acceptable in Indigenous cultures, because it's a different culture, a different environment, are not necessarily what we would deem acceptable here. And to me, it kind of also highlights
00:53:49.180 --> 00:54:02.139 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: like, there's a difference in, sort of, the Western mindset versus the Eastern mindset versus Indigenous mindset, that there are different ways we approach things, and sometimes we go to
00:54:02.210 --> 00:54:12.750 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: to some… go to the thing that's most exotic and different for us without even honoring, sort of, our own traditions. And it kind of always
00:54:12.750 --> 00:54:32.200 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: brings to mind the… the whole idea that, like, in sort of this very Western Judeo-Christian mindset, that there's this idea that we need to suffer for our enlightenment. Like, in order to… we have to suffer first in order to purify our soul or something, and… and with psychedelics, there's actually
00:54:32.770 --> 00:54:38.629 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Many people sort of take that approach and go for that high dose, and they're suffering through their first experience, but…
00:54:38.630 --> 00:54:54.190 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: as you say, if we slow down, right, Joe, if we slow down, take it easy, go titrate, you know, and find our balance, we don't have to suffer for our healing, do we? That we can actually find a way to do it in a more gentle process.
00:54:54.190 --> 00:55:03.509 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: That more serves our nervous system to help us metabolize and unwind some of these things we've been holding for so long without
00:55:03.560 --> 00:55:06.880 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: having to shock ourselves, like I talked about in my blog.
00:55:09.080 --> 00:55:10.449 Joe Moore: There's a lot there.
00:55:10.450 --> 00:55:11.880 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Sorry.
00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:22.760 Joe Moore: Yeah. Why put in more trauma if you're trying to get rid of trauma? If that's your game? I don't know what game everybody's playing, right? And I like this metaphor, Sam, of sometimes…
00:55:24.690 --> 00:55:34.660 Joe Moore: well, okay, back, rewinding the tape. Often, people in psychology, post-Carl Jung, Carl Jung included, use a lot of alchemical metaphor, and there's this kind of,
00:55:34.830 --> 00:55:42.849 Joe Moore: Phase, when the material's getting burnt, and… What if we…
00:55:44.010 --> 00:55:47.349 Joe Moore: Put it on low for years.
00:55:47.820 --> 00:55:49.500 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: As opposed to…
00:55:49.510 --> 00:55:53.099 Joe Moore: Medium heat, or even low heat. Like, let's put it on, like, warm.
00:55:53.100 --> 00:55:57.640 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: And, like, have that process go, and go, and go.
00:55:57.640 --> 00:55:58.280 Joe Moore: And…
00:55:58.520 --> 00:56:04.330 Joe Moore: It's not that it's not gonna be difficult or scary, it's that you just might not be setting yourself up for more pain.
00:56:04.530 --> 00:56:05.470 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Hmm…
00:56:05.990 --> 00:56:08.790 Joe Moore: That, you know, is not as necessary.
00:56:08.790 --> 00:56:10.140 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Yeah, I love that.
00:56:10.140 --> 00:56:11.500 Joe Moore: Get more paid if you want it.
00:56:11.910 --> 00:56:17.029 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Pull up Mom's old slow cooker instead of, like, putting the big pot on the range with a high flame.
00:56:18.420 --> 00:56:39.480 Kyle Buller (He/Him): I was definitely, like, the person I think I jumped in the deep end pretty quick with, like, the near-death experience, and then some of these, like, really profound psychedelic experiences, and it was, like, I think I was actually… the work I've been doing is, like, trying to heal from, like, the trauma that came up in those experiences, and, you know, I think before, I always had that, like.
00:56:39.500 --> 00:56:46.339 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: idea that, you know, if I'm not dying and I'm not having, like, this ego death, I'm not doing it right, right? It's like, it always…
00:56:46.340 --> 00:57:03.449 Kyle Buller (He/Him): And my position has really changed, kind of, like, what we're talking about. It's like a more slower, titrated process, like, can we actually hold the experience in our nervous system? And when are we going outside our window of tolerance? And I feel like a lot of people actually probably go outside their window of tolerance.
00:57:03.450 --> 00:57:14.470 Kyle Buller (He/Him): Because they do too much. And instead, it's like, why are we always looking for these really big experiences? And it might be a cultural thing, right? It's like we're looking for something big, fast, quick.
00:57:14.470 --> 00:57:23.490 Kyle Buller (He/Him): Versus, like, taking the time to, like, you know, yeah, sitting on the warming pot a bit, letting that alchemical stew, like, actually come together.
00:57:23.980 --> 00:57:29.620 Kyle Buller (He/Him): But we don't live in that culture where maybe we feel like we have the time to do that, right?
00:57:30.080 --> 00:57:40.279 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Right, like, if it took us 20, 30, 40, 50 years to get where we are today, what if it takes another 10 years for us to heal? I mean, compared to how long we've lived?
00:57:40.460 --> 00:57:54.370 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: You know, it's still, quote-unquote, fast. All right, gentlemen, I literally could talk to you guys all day about this stuff. We've got to start wrapping it up. So, one last word of advice for our listeners.
00:57:54.420 --> 00:58:04.949 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: you know, a little nugget that can serve them if they're curious, or even if they're already engaged in using psychedelics. What would you say to them, Kyle?
00:58:06.390 --> 00:58:13.450 Kyle Buller (He/Him): The first thing that just popped in my head, and I think it got sparked by your blog post,
00:58:13.770 --> 00:58:37.359 Kyle Buller (He/Him): become curious about your own process. There's a quote by Arnold Mendel where he talks about becoming fascinated about your own process. Not in, like, an egotistical kind of way, but, like, you know, even, like, when, you know, the difficulty arises, how do we become curious about that? And so, just really bringing curiosity to the forefront. How do we stay curious, keep asking questions.
00:58:37.380 --> 00:58:52.400 Kyle Buller (He/Him): Because we don't know where it's gonna lead to, and I think if psychedelics, I don't know, in my experience, it promotes a lot more curiosity, not always having the answers. So, how do we keep, you know, becoming curious about our own process here, and continuing to ask questions?
00:58:53.040 --> 00:58:56.089 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Cool, cool. Joe, how about you? What do you have?
00:58:56.090 --> 00:59:05.189 Joe Moore: Oh, keep learning, keep expanding the boundaries, I think this isn't just psychotherapy or spirituality, we're also looking at
00:59:05.330 --> 00:59:22.929 Joe Moore: spinal cord injuries and chronic pain conditions, check out the Psychedelics and Pain Association for more there. It's a non-profit I work with. And there's just so much room left for us to expand this. And it… the most complicated thing we know about, I think, in the universe is the human brain.
00:59:22.950 --> 00:59:25.479 Joe Moore: And psychedelics are just an adjunct to that.
00:59:26.830 --> 00:59:30.839 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Absolutely, absolutely. Well, gentlemen, thank you so much for coming on.
00:59:31.510 --> 00:59:36.280 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Joe, if people want to learn more, where do they go? How do they get in touch with you?
00:59:36.650 --> 00:59:45.570 Joe Moore: Yeah, psychedelicstoday.com, we're all over socials, and we would love to follow up, info at psychedelicsToday.com if you have questions.
00:59:45.770 --> 00:59:54.919 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: Wonderful, wonderful. All right, Kyle, Joe, thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule to come on my show today. A real pleasure having you.
00:59:54.920 --> 00:59:55.800 Kyle Buller (He/Him): Appreciate it.
00:59:56.790 --> 01:00:16.729 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consutlant: All right, and of course, thank you, my loyal listeners, for tuning in each week. Without you, there is no show. And don't forget, if you did miss any part of today's show, you can always catch the replay on YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, and talkradio.nyc. Thank you so much, take care, everyone. We will talk to you all next week.
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