This week on The Conscious Consultant Hour, Sam welcomes Abbie Rosner, writer, baby boomer, and one of the leading voices exploring how the psychedelic renaissance is reshaping the experience of aging.
Based in Washington, DC, Abbie is the author of the forthcoming book Psychedelics and the Counterculture of Aging and the creator of the ELDEREVOLUTION newsletter, where she challenges outdated narratives about getting older and offers a bold, meaningful vision of elderhood rooted in growth, healing, and consciousness expansion.
In this thought-provoking conversation, Abbie explores what makes working with psychedelics in later life fundamentally different than in youth. With decades of lived experience, emotional maturity, and insights from half a century of clinical research, older adults are uniquely positioned to benefit from these medicines.
She reflects on the oft-quoted line from Michael Pollan that psychedelics may be “wasted on the young,” and examines the specific issues of aging such as grief, meaning, end-of-life awareness, and spiritual integration, that psychedelics can help address.
Together, Sam and Abbie also discuss practical considerations, including safety, legal access, and the evolving role of spiritual and community support for older adults exploring psychedelics. Drawing on interviews with dozens of elders and her deep engagement with current research, Abbie makes a compelling case that aging can be a threshold into greater joy, purpose, and wholeness. This episode invites listeners to reimagine elderhood not as decline, but as a powerful frontier of consciousness, and a new counterculture in the making.
Tune in and share how you feel about getting older and finding peace with it on our YouTube livestream or on our Facebook page.
Tune in for this enlightening conversation at TalkRadio.nyc
In this opening segment, Sam Liebowitz invites listeners into a heart-centered exploration of healing by reflecting on how consciously facing and processing our past—especially fear, shame, and unconscious patterns—can free us to live with greater awareness, compassion, and inner peace. He shares his own journey of recognizing how deeply fear once shaped his life, reminding spiritually conscious seekers that healing is not instant, but a lifelong practice of presence, honesty, and gentle perseverance, often supported by synchronicity and guidance. The segment sets a reflective, expansive tone for the conversation to follow, grounding personal growth, spiritual maturity, and conscious expansion as essential paths to true freedom.
Sam reflects on how returning to sacred medicines later in life can feel profoundly different when it’s grounded in inner work, spiritual study, and a more mature relationship with one’s own consciousness. Abby shares that reading Michael Pollan’s How to Change Your Mind—especially the research on psilocybin therapy easing end-of-life anxiety—sparked a calling to explore how psychedelics might help elders meet aging, grief, and mortality with greater peace and conscious presence. As a writer devoted to destigmatizing and demystifying this path for her fellow boomers, she describes her own rite-of-passage into elderhood—growing psilocybin mushrooms and having a beautiful experience—which ultimately inspired her to document this largely underground, yet growing, elder “psychedelic renaissance.”
Abby explains that she found interviewees through readers who’d followed her writing over time, plus referrals from an ethical network of underground facilitators who connected her with older clients—so many people were eager to share their stories that it “wasn’t hard” to find voices. In the interviews, she heard a wide spectrum of experience (first-timers in their 70s, lifelong explorers, and many who took long hiatuses), a wide range of medicines and settings, and a consistent heart-intention: “if not now, when?”—a longing to finally meet lifelong grief, trauma, and suppressed parts with courage so their elder years can hold more peace and equanimity. What surprised her most was how often people described later life as their happiest and most meaningful season—feeling deeper connection to nature, community, and spirit—framing this as a “counterculture of aging” where intentional psychedelic work can help people reclaim their authentic voice, integrate “all of our ages,” and even make sincere peace with mortality through the felt sense of being profoundly held in love.
In the final segment, Abby offers grounded guidance for older seekers who feel called toward sacred medicine work: start with the body—review your medical history and medications with a qualified professional, do real due diligence around safety, and choose supportive conditions (especially if you’re going through an intensely difficult season). She highlights regulated, preparation-and-integration-centered psilocybin options in Colorado and Oregon as a reassuring path for elders who want a lab-tested, facilitated experience, while noting that emerging programs elsewhere are still evolving and each person must honor their own comfort level. Abby then shares how her Elder Revolution newsletter was born both from a “postpartum” void after finishing her manuscript and a desire to provide ongoing resources beyond the book—helping older adults navigate clinical research, practical considerations (like choosing an elder-aligned facilitator), and the deeper invitation of elderhood: living forward with curiosity, meaning, and “no regrets.”
00:00:45.410 --> 00:01:00.570 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Good afternoon, my conscious co-creators! Welcome to another edition of the Conscious Consultant Hour, Awakening Humanity. I am very, very pleased that you are all here with me today.
00:01:00.570 --> 00:01:19.099 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I have another wonderful show in store for you, with an amazing woman who I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. I hope you'll stick around and join us. Please let us know what questions and comments you have throughout the show. We'll answer them as we see them.
00:01:19.320 --> 00:01:23.899 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Did you catch my show last week with Dr. Christopher Mechlin?
00:01:24.230 --> 00:01:28.160 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Really interesting show, I hope you got a chance to catch it. Alright.
00:01:28.590 --> 00:01:33.770 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So, let's get started, as we always do, with,
00:01:34.410 --> 00:01:36.889 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: The, with my blog post.
00:01:37.070 --> 00:01:45.599 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And today's blog post, of course, just taking them in order, is entitled, When we process our past.
00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:48.420 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We will become free from it.
00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:52.330 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Facing our past can be challenging.
00:01:52.970 --> 00:01:56.720 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Looking into our old ways of being can sting.
00:01:56.990 --> 00:02:03.979 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We have grown so much since then, yet the ghosts of yesterday still haunt us.
00:02:05.070 --> 00:02:11.370 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: When we look into our past and truly face what we did and who we were.
00:02:11.850 --> 00:02:13.710 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We can begin to heal.
00:02:14.380 --> 00:02:24.920 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: What we experienced and how we reacted to everything gives us fertile soil to dig into our own patterns and behaviors.
00:02:25.760 --> 00:02:29.680 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: These are valuable clues on the road to improvement.
00:02:29.880 --> 00:02:43.480 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: For it is only when we can look at who we used to be and what we did that we can heal from the guilt, the shame, and the trauma we may have experienced
00:02:43.760 --> 00:02:45.430 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Or even caused.
00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:50.770 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: The past still lives within us every new day.
00:02:51.520 --> 00:03:00.140 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We carry the burdens of our past on our backs and constantly bring them with us to each new encounter.
00:03:00.590 --> 00:03:07.770 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Until we decide that we no longer want to have that pain live inside us.
00:03:08.910 --> 00:03:14.210 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Awareness of just what is going on inside of us is the first step.
00:03:15.450 --> 00:03:21.119 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: How our past affected us, and still affects us, shows up every day.
00:03:21.730 --> 00:03:33.590 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: When we are willing to look into our past, our patterns, and our triggers, we can start to unwind those beliefs that no longer serve us.
00:03:34.590 --> 00:03:39.880 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: While they still may have a hold on us, we can lighten the grip.
00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:47.880 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Being willing to be truthful with ourselves about all of this can feel hard.
00:03:48.970 --> 00:03:54.970 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: When we seek the help of a professional to support us, we are giving ourselves a great gift.
00:03:55.450 --> 00:04:03.679 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: For the support of someone who is trained and experienced in supporting people through the healing process is invaluable.
00:04:04.200 --> 00:04:08.400 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Unwinding those patterns in belief can take time.
00:04:08.660 --> 00:04:12.390 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: This journey is not an overnight experience.
00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:18.709 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It is a lifelong effort to grow and be a better version of ourselves.
00:04:20.140 --> 00:04:22.689 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Our demons may try to stop us.
00:04:23.300 --> 00:04:27.669 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: At the same time, synchronicities may support us.
00:04:28.200 --> 00:04:31.560 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Regardless of what is happening around us.
00:04:31.730 --> 00:04:38.460 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Staying with it until we find the relief or the change we seek is essential.
00:04:39.440 --> 00:04:44.349 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Sometimes, after we start this journey, we doubt ourselves.
00:04:44.940 --> 00:04:50.920 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We ask ourselves, why didn't I leave well enough alone?
00:04:51.650 --> 00:04:54.400 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It is normal to have these doubts.
00:04:55.520 --> 00:05:01.620 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Keeping in mind the goal of where we want to go is important during these times.
00:05:02.130 --> 00:05:06.510 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Our perseverance will pay off in the end.
00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:14.690 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: For when we reach that day, when we can look upon our past without judgment, fear, or dread.
00:05:15.400 --> 00:05:17.680 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We will feel so free.
00:05:18.370 --> 00:05:21.640 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Perhaps we will even feel compassion.
00:05:21.870 --> 00:05:26.059 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: For ourselves, and anyone else involved.
00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:29.380 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: How wonderful would that be?
00:05:31.300 --> 00:05:39.660 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So… I wrote this a couple of years ago, It was after,
00:05:41.100 --> 00:05:54.050 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I kind of had experienced a bit of a rough time, and really, Kinda came face-to-face with…
00:05:54.580 --> 00:05:59.120 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: how much fear I held in my body, how much…
00:05:59.860 --> 00:06:03.290 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Fear had controlled me in my past.
00:06:05.330 --> 00:06:14.880 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: You know, fear of being alone, fear of being left alone, fear of… of… of… you know…
00:06:16.020 --> 00:06:24.140 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: of being on my own, and not knowing what I'm doing, and it… and it… And it really was…
00:06:24.270 --> 00:06:29.750 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I guess an energy or a pattern I've been holding onto most of my life.
00:06:30.450 --> 00:06:32.860 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And it really shocked me.
00:06:33.060 --> 00:06:34.970 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: when I looked at it.
00:06:36.150 --> 00:06:44.899 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And I got some perspective to see how much that fear had controlled my decisions throughout my life.
00:06:47.420 --> 00:06:51.310 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: How much it… it… really affected me.
00:06:52.300 --> 00:06:56.399 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Because I never really saw that. I saw it that way before.
00:06:58.510 --> 00:07:02.189 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It's like, yeah, we all have fear. Yeah, I'm afraid of some things.
00:07:05.180 --> 00:07:08.180 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But to really come face-to-face with
00:07:08.610 --> 00:07:14.380 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: How much fear had controlled my decisions in my life.
00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:20.450 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It was rough. It was really hard. It really didn't feel good.
00:07:20.610 --> 00:07:26.200 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It took me a while to kind of get through that and integrate it.
00:07:28.540 --> 00:07:34.300 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And, yeah, eventually… Got past it.
00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:38.339 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Do I still have fear? Absolutely.
00:07:39.530 --> 00:07:42.540 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Does it still affect my decisions? Of course.
00:07:45.380 --> 00:07:48.490 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Does it have as tight a grip on me?
00:07:49.710 --> 00:07:51.300 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I don't believe so.
00:07:53.180 --> 00:07:57.489 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And… I'm sure there will be more moments
00:07:57.830 --> 00:08:00.310 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Where I feel the fear again.
00:08:01.500 --> 00:08:07.610 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: or where I see it in a different way, or see how it affected my life in different ways.
00:08:09.210 --> 00:08:11.639 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And I'll release more of that energy.
00:08:14.400 --> 00:08:21.250 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But it just kind of made me realize that we really… have to face…
00:08:23.690 --> 00:08:27.060 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: What we've experienced in our lifetime.
00:08:30.280 --> 00:08:33.970 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: to truly… Be free from it.
00:08:36.210 --> 00:08:40.250 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Because there's so much… That we live through.
00:08:40.580 --> 00:08:42.920 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That we have experienced.
00:08:43.490 --> 00:08:45.490 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That stays with us.
00:08:47.020 --> 00:08:49.139 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That we don't even realize.
00:08:49.650 --> 00:08:51.770 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And that's the kicker, isn't it?
00:08:53.050 --> 00:08:55.409 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We don't even know how much.
00:08:55.640 --> 00:08:59.320 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: These old situations, these experiences we've had.
00:08:59.650 --> 00:09:00.930 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: affect us.
00:09:02.330 --> 00:09:06.579 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But when we take the time to do our inner work.
00:09:06.970 --> 00:09:08.910 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: To take a moment to just stop.
00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:11.480 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: reflect.
00:09:12.340 --> 00:09:17.209 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Tune in to how we're truly feeling about a situation.
00:09:18.260 --> 00:09:24.709 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And look, when everything's going good, everything's great, you know? That's not when we see those triggers.
00:09:26.610 --> 00:09:36.180 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But when we're challenged, when we're having a hard time, when we… are really struggling.
00:09:36.990 --> 00:09:42.019 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That's when it comes up. That's… that's when it… it's front and center for us.
00:09:42.930 --> 00:09:52.199 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Alright, so that's my blog post for this week. Again, the blog post is entitled, When We Process Our Past, We Will Become Free From It.
00:09:52.200 --> 00:10:03.080 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And of course, you can always find my blog on my personal website, theconsciousconsultant.com. And yes, the website was down for a few days, there were some…
00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:17.019 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: technical things, I got my webmaster to fix it. It is back up, so you can see my blog on my personally branded website, and of course, it's also on, the station's website at talkradio.nyc slash blog.
00:10:17.630 --> 00:10:35.239 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: All right, now, it is my extreme pleasure to welcome to the show Abby Rosner, writer, baby boomer, and one of the leading voices exploring how the psychedelic renaissance is reshaping the experience of aging.
00:10:35.710 --> 00:10:45.020 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Based in Washington, D.C, Abby is the author of the upcoming book, Psychedelics and the Counterculture of Aging.
00:10:45.020 --> 00:10:57.890 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: and the creator of the Elder Revolution Newsletter, where she challenges outdated narratives about getting older and offers a bold, meaningful vision of elderhood rooted in growth.
00:10:57.910 --> 00:11:00.549 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Healing and conscious expansion.
00:11:01.450 --> 00:11:10.060 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Abby explores what makes working with psychedelics in later life fundamentally different than in our youth.
00:11:10.170 --> 00:11:21.219 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: With decades of lived experience, emotional maturity, and insights from half a century of clinical research, older adults are uniquely positioned to benefit from these medicine.
00:11:21.310 --> 00:11:34.479 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: She reflects on the oft-quoted line from Michael Pollan that psychedelics may be waste, quote-unquote, wasted on the young, and examines the specific issues of aging, such as grief.
00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:41.609 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Meaning, end-of-life awareness, and spiritual integration that psychedelics can help address.
00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:46.159 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Welcome to the Conscious Consultant Hour, Abby. Please unmute.
00:11:51.650 --> 00:11:55.619 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Thanks, Sam. Who are you talking about?
00:11:55.620 --> 00:12:04.829 Abbie Rosner: Yes, I know. Sometimes when you hear your own bio being read by somebody else, they're like, what? That's me? Really?
00:12:05.210 --> 00:12:07.050 Abbie Rosner: I was like, dang!
00:12:07.050 --> 00:12:09.879 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah, yeah, how about that? How about that?
00:12:10.410 --> 00:12:16.209 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So, you know, it's really quite interesting, and, and…
00:12:16.550 --> 00:12:33.940 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: you know, with this psychedelic renaissance going on, people are talking about, writing about, all different aspects of psychedelics. But what got you interested in this particular aspect, which really…
00:12:34.090 --> 00:12:45.979 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: very few, if anybody, are talking about, which is how, more mature people, let's not say… more mature people, approach working with psychedelics.
00:12:46.590 --> 00:13:05.210 Abbie Rosner: Okay, well, thanks, Sam, for the… first of all, thanks for inviting me to the show, and thanks for that great introduction, and for a great question. And, you know, I always like to start with my, you know, my personal experience, because I think that's what people are always interested in, like, how did you even get to this topic? Right, right. So, I…
00:13:05.700 --> 00:13:14.729 Abbie Rosner: as we mentioned before, I'm, I think, a quintessential baby boomer. I'm kind of towards the later end of the range of,
00:13:15.220 --> 00:13:30.559 Abbie Rosner: of dates for the baby boomers, I was born in 1958, so I'm now 67. So, I came of age in the 1970s in Washington, D.C, and…
00:13:30.620 --> 00:13:39.890 Abbie Rosner: If anyone who's listening also came of age in the 1960s and 70s, you'll remember that there was a lot of drugs around.
00:13:39.890 --> 00:13:42.979 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: We were smoking a lot of pot.
00:13:42.980 --> 00:13:52.400 Abbie Rosner: We were tripping on acid, we were doing all kinds of crazy things. And, you know, not very thoughtfully, not very intentionally, but it was everywhere.
00:13:52.400 --> 00:14:13.230 Abbie Rosner: And so that was part of my experience. And then, when I got into my 20s, in my later 20s, I graduated from college, I got married, I had kids, and, you know, in the meantime, the war on drugs was happening, you know, there was a lot of crackdowns, and it just… drugs all of a sudden were kind of off my radar.
00:14:13.230 --> 00:14:17.610 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: You know, for about, I guess I would say about 30 years.
00:14:17.690 --> 00:14:29.689 Abbie Rosner: You know, it was really more the glass of wine, you know, that was really the, you know, the way to relax and chill. So, but when I entered my 50s.
00:14:29.810 --> 00:14:37.770 Abbie Rosner: My kids were grown, and my marriage was ending, and I rediscovered pot.
00:14:38.210 --> 00:14:40.080 Abbie Rosner: Cannabis, now we're calling it cannabis.
00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:44.699 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So, and it was kind of a revelation.
00:14:44.700 --> 00:14:45.970 Abbie Rosner: Because…
00:14:46.400 --> 00:14:55.380 Abbie Rosner: if back in the day, when I was a teenager, when I used to smoke pot, it made me paranoid and nervous, and
00:14:55.780 --> 00:15:15.580 Abbie Rosner: So… this time, it was very, very different. Instead of being nervous and paranoid, I was just… it just put me in this wonderful mood. I felt great, I felt relaxed, I was… had this new perspective on life, and it was really kind of a revelation for me. And I thought to myself.
00:15:15.620 --> 00:15:26.980 Abbie Rosner: could I be the only baby boomer that's, like, rediscovering this, you know, the drugs of my youth in such a different… with, you know, with… grounded in… in, maturity?
00:15:26.980 --> 00:15:32.149 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm. You know, it's so funny, because I have such a sort of similar path.
00:15:32.290 --> 00:15:48.000 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: in that, back when I was in high school, I'm a little bit younger than you, I'm only 63, but, you know, I was doing LSD in high school, and mescaline, and peyote, and smoking pot, like, every day for, like, a year to two years.
00:15:48.110 --> 00:16:02.540 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And for me, I didn't get paranoid on pot. For me, it was just a way of checking out, you know? I was kind of not feeling good about my family's situation and just kind of life, and it was… it was pure escapism for me.
00:16:03.610 --> 00:16:10.350 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Though I did have those experiences on LSD that were like, oh my god, I feel like I've touched the mind of God.
00:16:11.210 --> 00:16:14.260 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And then,
00:16:14.350 --> 00:16:32.140 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I got to college, I kind of… I did much, much less, because my first year of college, I did really poorly. I was like, oh, it's like my short-term memory was really toast. And so I just kind of got away from it, and then, you know, for the next 30 years, until I was in my 50s also.
00:16:32.140 --> 00:16:37.630 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I, you know, occasionally would have a puff of, Of marijuana, but just…
00:16:37.630 --> 00:16:53.700 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: most of the people around me were no longer people who were doing drugs all the time, so it just wasn't in my environment, so I wasn't doing it until, you know, 11 and a half years ago, I went to my first ceremony, which I didn't even really know what I was going to at the time.
00:16:53.750 --> 00:17:00.239 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And had a tremendous experience, and I was like, wow, it's so different.
00:17:00.290 --> 00:17:18.549 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: from when I was a kid, doing things recreationally, without a guide, without a facilitator, in a very, you know, unsacred way, to now doing things in a much more facilitated, ritualistic, sacred way, it was… it was just amazing to me.
00:17:18.970 --> 00:17:38.660 Abbie Rosner: Right. Well, I think that that was, you know, that was kind of this discovery, and I think probably, like you, or I'm guessing, I mean, I had a meditation practice for many years, I, you know, I continue to have, so… and I'd done, you know, decades of therapy, so not only was I, you know, bringing life maturity to this
00:17:38.760 --> 00:17:46.779 Abbie Rosner: you know, the experience of altered consciousness. But I also had a much, you know, more evolved relationship with my mind.
00:17:46.780 --> 00:17:54.289 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And my con… you know, your blog post was earlier was about, you know, working with our demons and our fears.
00:17:54.290 --> 00:18:12.050 Abbie Rosner: You know, this was what I did decades of work with a therapist with. So, you know, I was already coming to an evolved… an advanced… expanded state of consciousness with a more evolved, relationship with my own mind and my own spirit.
00:18:12.050 --> 00:18:14.850 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So that, I think, added to the…
00:18:15.030 --> 00:18:16.830 Abbie Rosner: You know, the… the…
00:18:16.830 --> 00:18:38.500 Abbie Rosner: qualitative difference in the relationship that I had with what I call sacred medicine. Because if I, you know, if I thought of pot as something fun young, I… I now consider it a sacred medicine, because the expansion that it opens for me is… is, it's just a gift, I feel like.
00:18:38.870 --> 00:18:40.569 Abbie Rosner: Gift from the universe.
00:18:40.890 --> 00:18:43.659 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Okay, let's take a quick break.
00:18:43.660 --> 00:18:44.140 Abbie Rosner: Okay.
00:18:44.140 --> 00:18:53.599 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: when we come back, I want to… I kind of want to just comment on what you just said a little bit, relating to it, but let's get into,
00:18:55.810 --> 00:19:04.499 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: you know, sort of this reflection, and how it went from just a curiosity into actually working on a book. Okay?
00:19:04.500 --> 00:19:05.290 Abbie Rosner: Great.
00:19:05.290 --> 00:19:22.799 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Alright, wonderful, Abby. So everyone, please stay tuned. You're listening to The Conscious Consultant Hour, Awakening Humanity. We do this every Thursday, soon to be Wednesdays, here on talkradio.nyc, and we'll be right back with our guest, Abby Rosner, in just a moment.
00:20:37.850 --> 00:20:55.339 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And welcome back to The Conscious Consultant Hour Awakening Humanity. We're speaking this hour with Abby Rosner, author of the upcoming book, Psychedelics and the Counterculture of Aging. And Abby, you made the comment about how, you know, after
00:20:55.420 --> 00:21:04.980 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Your experiences when you were young, and then a long time without, sort of, experience with substances, and then having done work in therapy, and dealing with…
00:21:04.980 --> 00:21:16.629 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: You know, sort of a personal development of your internal landscape, that when you came back to these substances, that you came back to it with a much different relationship.
00:21:16.800 --> 00:21:25.819 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And it's sort of similar to me. I didn't go through years of therapy, I probably should have, but I had gotten sort of
00:21:26.130 --> 00:21:38.289 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I had had some experiences early in life that kind of put me on my spiritual path initially, and then things went really bad, really wrong with it. I got very far away from it, I just became an entrepreneur, just
00:21:38.290 --> 00:21:46.350 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: focused on making money, couldn't really deal with it. And then slowly but surely, the universe sort of nudged me back onto my spiritual path.
00:21:46.350 --> 00:21:55.989 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So, I had come back to a lot of the things I had studied and learned about when I was a very young adult.
00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:11.799 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: that coming back, studying with the spiritual ascension teacher in different mystery schools and stuff, but I came back to it with a very strong foundation. Like, a lot of other people who were studying with the same people, this was all, like, brand new to them. They had no background, so…
00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:22.410 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: it's sort of back, in the early 2000s, when I got back into, sort of healing work and personal development, and spiritual development work.
00:22:22.560 --> 00:22:27.260 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And so I spent… You know, probably a good 10 years.
00:22:27.770 --> 00:22:32.449 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Sort of getting back into my spiritual path, And then…
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:38.740 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: you know, the sacred substances found me, again. So…
00:22:39.360 --> 00:22:50.479 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I kind of get, you know, that whole thing of, like, coming back to them, but coming back to them from a much more mature perspective, and a much more…
00:22:51.230 --> 00:22:59.789 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: evolved, I don't know, that can be a charged word, but a very different way of seeing things. So, I'm curious now how, like.
00:22:59.980 --> 00:23:05.000 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Coming back and having these experiences, like, what got…
00:23:05.520 --> 00:23:21.920 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Like, got you so curious about it that you decided to actually focus on this particular aspect of, like, more mature people coming to work with these sacred substances to the point that you actually decided to write a book about it?
00:23:22.590 --> 00:23:34.739 Abbie Rosner: Okay, well, you mentioned Michael Pollan earlier, and I, on my 60th birthday in 2018, was given a copy of How to Change Your Mind, Michael Pollan's book, How to Change Your Mind.
00:23:34.840 --> 00:23:50.980 Abbie Rosner: And that, you know, I have always, my whole life, I've been interested in the nature of consciousness. So, you know, a Michael Pollan book about consciousness is like, you know, it's like, I just devoured the book, basically. And it made a huge impression on me.
00:23:50.980 --> 00:24:09.709 Abbie Rosner: And really what, you know, of all this… of all the amazing material that he covered in that book, what really stuck with me, made the biggest impression, were these studies that… that were being conducted at Johns Hopkins and NYU, where they were giving terminal cancer patients
00:24:09.710 --> 00:24:12.120 Abbie Rosner: Therapy with psilocybin.
00:24:12.530 --> 00:24:23.330 Abbie Rosner: And the stories, you know, he… this is Paulin's masterful writing. He took us along with the story of a… I think, a man in his
00:24:23.330 --> 00:24:35.260 Abbie Rosner: 50s, maybe? Who had, like, liver, terminal liver cancer, and he… he was just, you know, paralyzed with anxiety and depression over, you know, losing his life at a really young age.
00:24:35.260 --> 00:24:53.439 Abbie Rosner: Yeah. And he had this experience with psilocybin, and he talked to… at first he described it as, like, having touched the face of God, or something beautiful. And then he said, you know, afterwards, he said he can… up until his death, he considered himself the luckiest man alive.
00:24:53.550 --> 00:24:58.180 Abbie Rosner: And I thought, how on earth does something…
00:24:59.040 --> 00:25:08.089 Abbie Rosner: Catalyze such a profound change, not only in fear, but this is… fear of death is our most… it's really our most primal fear that we have.
00:25:08.090 --> 00:25:13.990 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: It's a huge issue, we don't, you know, we're a death-phobic society, we don't like to talk about these things.
00:25:13.990 --> 00:25:23.279 Abbie Rosner: And yet, what I was thinking is that, you know, I'd already been thinking about the issue of cannabis and how it… how enhanced
00:25:23.280 --> 00:25:34.759 Abbie Rosner: states of consciousness affect how we age. And I thought, well, here we are, nothing like aging to remind us that we all have a terminal condition. And so…
00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:44.380 Abbie Rosner: If there's something, if there's a possibility of going into some kind of therapeutic process, or an engagement with a kind of, sacred
00:25:44.580 --> 00:25:47.000 Abbie Rosner: medicine to…
00:25:47.310 --> 00:25:58.889 Abbie Rosner: confront, or to face, and to even alleviate that really primal fear? Shouldn't we all be at least considering that as a way to,
00:25:58.890 --> 00:26:10.229 Abbie Rosner: to be… to experience our older age more consciously. And so that kind of… asking that question really was what set me off on this… on this,
00:26:10.280 --> 00:26:16.159 Abbie Rosner: Quest. Now, you… you asked why I wanted to write a book. Well, I'm a… I'm, you know.
00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:27.539 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: first and foremost, professionally, and also by my, I think, my passion, I'm a writer, and I'm… I'm not a fiction writer, I don't have a story in my head, but I've always felt that I wanted to use my voice.
00:26:27.570 --> 00:26:38.879 Abbie Rosner: to, to destigmatize, or to make the… to take away the mystery around things, particularly about something that I've experienced. I really wanted to… to,
00:26:39.220 --> 00:26:58.870 Abbie Rosner: help my people, my peeps, my, you know, my fellow boomers to understand that, you know, we learned a lot of, you know, we were fed a lot of different information, we had our own, you know, our own experience, youthful experiences, but I really wanted to, to, demystify
00:26:59.100 --> 00:26:59.650 Abbie Rosner: what.
00:26:59.650 --> 00:27:00.050 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm.
00:27:00.050 --> 00:27:03.629 Abbie Rosner: what psychedelic experience means in older life. So.
00:27:03.770 --> 00:27:21.209 Abbie Rosner: in the personal sense, so I would turn 60, I read the book, and I thought, well, I want to, you know, have a psychedelic experience again. And I looked at it as kind of a rite of passage into my elderhood, because I was at a very new stage in life, I was…
00:27:21.210 --> 00:27:33.209 Abbie Rosner: I was living in a new city, I was starting a new career. You know, I felt full of energy and excitement over this new stage in my life. And I wanted to,
00:27:34.230 --> 00:27:42.570 Abbie Rosner: to… I felt like it was appropriate to have a psychedelic experience, so I didn't know where to find any mushrooms, so I decided to grow my own, and I…
00:27:42.570 --> 00:27:42.920 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Oh.
00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:47.609 Abbie Rosner: I did a course, an online course, and I grew my own psilocybin mushrooms, and I…
00:27:48.030 --> 00:27:59.419 Abbie Rosner: had a beautiful, beautiful psilocybin experience, and that really kind of clinched it for me. It was like, okay, well, this is really going to be my path.
00:27:59.630 --> 00:28:03.509 Abbie Rosner: And I decided that I was going to write a book.
00:28:03.630 --> 00:28:12.079 Abbie Rosner: for my older… my community of older adults to explain to them, you know, as I said, to demystify.
00:28:12.270 --> 00:28:15.410 Abbie Rosner: What a psychedelic experience can be in older life.
00:28:15.420 --> 00:28:21.739 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: You know, I'm curious, because I've known people who grow their own mushrooms. I've never done it myself.
00:28:21.740 --> 00:28:22.300 Abbie Rosner: Mmm.
00:28:22.300 --> 00:28:29.319 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But I've heard it said that when you grow your own plant medicines.
00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:47.880 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That you develop a relationship with it, so the experience is very different than when you take a plant medicine that somebody else grew. So I'm wondering, like, if you've, like, tried other things, and if there was a difference in that experience from something someone else grew.
00:28:48.360 --> 00:29:04.089 Abbie Rosner: You know, for me, every experience is so different that it would really be hard for me to qualify. I can say it was a gorgeous experience, it really was, with my own homegrown mushrooms, but I, you know, I've had other experiences since then.
00:29:04.090 --> 00:29:12.360 Abbie Rosner: But, but anyway, the… when I started to write the book, I was just kind of curious to see if this was a thing. Is this even a thing?
00:29:12.360 --> 00:29:12.790 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: or…
00:29:12.790 --> 00:29:36.620 Abbie Rosner: You know, am I the only older, gray-haired person out there, you know, doing these kind of experiences, or is this… is, you know, is this a much more widespread phenomenon? And I think that now, you know, the book is finished, and I can pretty, confidently say that it is… it actually is a very, widespread and underground, largely underground, but growing phenomenon.
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:40.879 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
00:29:41.120 --> 00:29:59.670 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I have so many questions about it. I do want to ask you about, like, because I know you interviewed a lot of people for the book, and I want to ask you about those interviews, but let's just take our next break, because it's the bottom of the hour, and then when we come back, I want to get into
00:29:59.710 --> 00:30:15.120 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Like, the questions you asked people, what kinds of responses you got, and what sort of surprised you, maybe, about the responses you got from other mature people like yourself, okay?
00:30:15.120 --> 00:30:16.270 Abbie Rosner: Absolutely.
00:30:16.270 --> 00:30:30.890 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Wonderful, wonderful. So everyone, please stay tuned. You're listening to The Conscious Consultant, Our Awakening Humanity. We'll be right back with our guest, Abby Rosner, author of the upcoming book, Psychedelics and the Counterculture of Aging, in just a moment.
00:31:34.380 --> 00:31:49.040 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So, Abby, in writing this book, you went out and you spoke with other mature people who also engage in psychedelics. I don't know, can I ask you, like, just how did you find people?
00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:57.099 Abbie Rosner: Well, so I've been, you know, writing about this topic Or investigating this topic, and…
00:31:57.100 --> 00:32:15.890 Abbie Rosner: different forums, so over the years, people have written to me. A lot of people have said, oh, you know, what you're writing really resonates with me. And so I… so I had already kind of a backlog of people that had been… had contacted me, and I just reached out, and I said, would you like to be… would you be willing to be interviewed for my book? And, you know, most… most of the people were inclined.
00:32:15.890 --> 00:32:20.510 Abbie Rosner: But I also, I also…
00:32:21.500 --> 00:32:38.359 Abbie Rosner: was fortunate to connect to a group of underground facilitators that work in my area, and they… it's a professional network, very serious therapists, facilitators, you know, amazing, very passionate and ethical people.
00:32:38.360 --> 00:32:57.839 Abbie Rosner: And I told them about my project, my book, and they put out feelers to their clients. And all of them basically said, you know, oh yes, we have, you know, my… I'm working with people in their 70s and their 60s and their 80s, and so they can… they just put out a feeler, and people… it was… let me put it this way, it wasn't hard.
00:32:57.840 --> 00:33:02.550 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: People were happy to come forward. That's wonderful to hear.
00:33:02.690 --> 00:33:11.129 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And so, what kinds of questions did you ask them, and what kinds of responses really surprised you?
00:33:11.670 --> 00:33:17.630 Abbie Rosner: Well, I, you know, I really try to keep the conversation as open as possible.
00:33:17.630 --> 00:33:18.100 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Okay.
00:33:18.100 --> 00:33:31.150 Abbie Rosner: I basically, you know, it was the usual questions, you know, it was this… is this the first time that you're experiencing psychedelics, or did you have psychedelic experiences in your past?
00:33:31.310 --> 00:33:42.919 Abbie Rosner: And, you know, there were… the answers were all over the place. I talked to people who were in their 70s who were having their first psychedelic experience. I talked to people in their 70s who'd been…
00:33:43.150 --> 00:33:54.520 Abbie Rosner: tripping pretty consistently since their 20s. I also talk to people that, you know, many like you and me, who had that, you know, that hiatus in between.
00:33:54.520 --> 00:33:55.010 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm.
00:33:55.010 --> 00:34:10.519 Abbie Rosner: You know, between their youthful explorations and then their older experiences. So that was kind of all over the map. Gotcha. Also, the medicines that people were using were all over the map. I talked to people that, you know, went to South America and did ayahuasca.
00:34:10.520 --> 00:34:21.630 Abbie Rosner: I talked to people who, you know, who experienced psilocybin in group ceremonies in a basement in suburban, you know, Washington, and I talk to people who…
00:34:21.730 --> 00:34:29.360 Abbie Rosner: who, you know, did MDMA roles. So there were all kind of medicines, all kind of,
00:34:29.560 --> 00:34:32.929 Abbie Rosner: motivations, intentions.
00:34:33.080 --> 00:34:34.879 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I… I…
00:34:35.350 --> 00:34:41.130 Abbie Rosner: Heard a lot of childhood trauma, a lot of people who are carrying around a lot of grief.
00:34:41.500 --> 00:34:44.369 Abbie Rosner: A consistent theme that came up?
00:34:45.139 --> 00:34:52.950 Abbie Rosner: pretty much across the board was, you know, if not now, when? Like, I don't want to live another day bearing this.
00:34:52.949 --> 00:34:54.349 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: burden of…
00:34:54.350 --> 00:35:07.300 Abbie Rosner: grief and trauma and everything. If I'm looking at the decades that I have ahead of me, I want to… I wanna find peace, and if this maybe is going to be a way for me to achieve some kind of peace.
00:35:07.300 --> 00:35:09.829 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: then I'm… I'm willing to give it a go.
00:35:10.090 --> 00:35:12.059 Abbie Rosner: And the, you know, there's…
00:35:12.490 --> 00:35:24.609 Abbie Rosner: the stories were very inspiring. It's… and I… I just want to be clear here that, you know, this… these are… these aren't stories of people like, oh my gosh, I did psilocybin, and now I'm free, and now I'm…
00:35:24.610 --> 00:35:25.010 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: No.
00:35:25.010 --> 00:35:31.479 Abbie Rosner: healed, and all that. It's a process, it's a learning process. People are… are really, you know…
00:35:31.750 --> 00:35:34.280 Abbie Rosner: They're really doing courageous…
00:35:34.420 --> 00:35:52.149 Abbie Rosner: difficult work. You know, these experiences, if anyone is familiar, they can be very, very challenging. But I think people felt… really felt that it was worth the effort, because they wanted to live their older years, you know, with more peace and equanimity.
00:35:52.180 --> 00:35:58.710 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So I think that that was a theme that came across, but I guess, you know, you asked about what.
00:35:58.710 --> 00:36:17.529 Abbie Rosner: I found was kind of surprising. And I think that was how many times I heard people say to me, this is now the most… the happiest, most fulfilling, and the most wonderful time of life, of my life. And that's so counterintuitive, you know, we think of it.
00:36:17.530 --> 00:36:17.970 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Right.
00:36:17.970 --> 00:36:32.680 Abbie Rosner: our societal messages are that older age is, you know, this time of decline and irrelevance, and here people are saying, this, I'm, you know, I'm experiencing such joy and such meaning.
00:36:32.680 --> 00:36:33.110 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Meaning.
00:36:33.110 --> 00:36:42.369 Abbie Rosner: such… a connection to nature, connection to others. It's such a part of my spiritual evolution that
00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:47.949 Abbie Rosner: it's really… that's why I call it the counterculture of aging, because we're really…
00:36:48.190 --> 00:36:53.359 Abbie Rosner: Offering a very different vision of what older life can be.
00:36:53.780 --> 00:36:54.690 Abbie Rosner: So…
00:36:54.690 --> 00:37:01.589 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I took… I'm curious what kind of challenges older people had with doing this work?
00:37:01.690 --> 00:37:19.489 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Like, doing this work when you're 30, 40, 50 is one thing, but when you're 60, 70, 80, there are different considerations, and I'm wondering, like, did anyone talk about, sort of, the challenges they had as an older person coming into this work?
00:37:19.930 --> 00:37:27.500 Abbie Rosner: Well… I've been actually thinking a lot about this Notion of elderhood, and how…
00:37:27.500 --> 00:37:52.429 Abbie Rosner: As we move into older… you know, we have… there's specific times in our lives for different, you know, we have periods of development. As you go into your 60s and your 70s, I believe, and I'm reading about this, that there's kind of a natural shift that goes in our priorities and our orientation. I think we're looking more… we're less focused on achieving and building our careers and all those things. I think we're more interested in me
00:37:52.430 --> 00:38:03.619 Abbie Rosner: meaning-making, looking at the trajectory of our lives, understanding… doing our shadow work, you know, as, you know, in the Jungian concept. Like, looking at
00:38:04.090 --> 00:38:17.999 Abbie Rosner: what were the forces that drove us in life? What were the things that we had to suppress because our conditions, our circumstances didn't allow us to express certain parts of ourselves that we had to suppress? So…
00:38:19.670 --> 00:38:22.679 Abbie Rosner: Processes like that can be very…
00:38:22.780 --> 00:38:26.189 Abbie Rosner: Meaningfully supported with intentional psychedelic work.
00:38:26.270 --> 00:38:40.440 Abbie Rosner: I think you… you would… you might, resonate with that. I think, you know, the… I talked to people who told me about how their work with psychedelics allowed… it created a space
00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:46.569 Abbie Rosner: Where their authentic voice could be heard. You know, parts of themselves that.
00:38:46.570 --> 00:38:54.930 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Because of shame, because of just not having room for parts of themselves.
00:38:54.930 --> 00:39:04.219 Abbie Rosner: to… to, be expressed, that after they did the psychedelic work, work with psilocybin or MDMA, or whatever medicines, they were…
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:16.809 Abbie Rosner: able to get… to give the… I'm thinking of one person a very youthful part of himself, a kind of free and… and irreverent and… and fun and funny…
00:39:16.820 --> 00:39:28.630 Abbie Rosner: part of himself, just to, like, break free. And he said, I'm 70 years old, so I have to be careful of my body, because otherwise I would just, you know, be jumping all over the place.
00:39:28.630 --> 00:39:46.419 Abbie Rosner: So, and I think that that… it just touches on one more point that I… that I… has… an insight that's come to me through all these interviews, is that I think that these intentional psychedelic experiences expose to us that we contain in ourselves all of our ages.
00:39:47.040 --> 00:39:54.220 Abbie Rosner: We have them all in ourselves, and that as we do this work, it allows us to
00:39:54.840 --> 00:39:56.860 Abbie Rosner: Go back and touch!
00:39:56.900 --> 00:40:13.969 Abbie Rosner: And nurture, and fan the flames of parts of ourselves that maybe never had the chance, even in our childhood or in our youth, for whatever reasons, we weren't… really weren't able to… to give those… to nurture them with love.
00:40:13.970 --> 00:40:22.539 Abbie Rosner: Because, for many, this is another theme that came up. For many people, the experience of being held in love.
00:40:22.660 --> 00:40:38.810 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: That, you know, this experience that we know from psilocybin or MDMA, some of these medicines, you just feel an overwhelming sensation of being held. What, you know, one of the gentlemen, a man in… I guess he's now 80, but he was talking about.
00:40:38.810 --> 00:40:39.740 Abbie Rosner: being…
00:40:39.980 --> 00:40:50.780 Abbie Rosner: hell… he said every fiber, every cell of my being was being loved. You know, it's… that's a very, very profound thing.
00:40:51.590 --> 00:40:53.359 Abbie Rosner: For a person to feel.
00:40:53.480 --> 00:41:01.469 Abbie Rosner: And when you have… an experience like that, that really stays with you. And just to…
00:41:01.660 --> 00:41:13.349 Abbie Rosner: could finish the thought. The other thing that comes up, obviously, when we talk about psychedelics in older life, is the… is the mortality awareness.
00:41:13.520 --> 00:41:14.889 Abbie Rosner: You know, really.
00:41:15.060 --> 00:41:33.189 Abbie Rosner: I think that this is a really key component, something very difficult for us. We don't like to think about death, we don't want to talk about death, but having a… being able to look at your mortality with your eyes wide open, and really understand that if this is the cycle of life.
00:41:33.300 --> 00:41:44.279 Abbie Rosner: And it's a beautiful cycle, and we are, you know, we're on the downward end of it, but it… that downward end also offers these gorgeous.
00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:48.070 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Moments of deepening and understanding and love.
00:41:48.980 --> 00:41:53.389 Abbie Rosner: I think that that is really the key to… to what these…
00:41:53.460 --> 00:41:57.550 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Clinical trials with the cancer patients we're pointing to.
00:41:57.550 --> 00:42:01.730 Abbie Rosner: That it really does help us to make peace with our mortality.
00:42:01.730 --> 00:42:03.320 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah, I…
00:42:03.880 --> 00:42:17.899 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I was fortunate enough to be at the Psychedelic Sciences Conference back in 22 years ago, or 3, you know, a little over 2 years ago, and 23 in Denver, the big 12,000 person.
00:42:17.900 --> 00:42:18.690 Abbie Rosner: Right, right, right.
00:42:18.690 --> 00:42:19.360 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And.
00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:21.529 Abbie Rosner: I was there, too. I didn't see you.
00:42:21.530 --> 00:42:27.419 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And, you know, I'm sure you saw Roland Griffith. Yes, yes. When he got up on stage and talked
00:42:27.810 --> 00:42:29.690 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: of having stage 4 colon cancer.
00:42:29.690 --> 00:42:30.780 Abbie Rosner: Right, right.
00:42:31.100 --> 00:42:32.030 Abbie Rosner: vulnerable.
00:42:32.030 --> 00:42:34.219 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And, and his poise.
00:42:34.220 --> 00:42:34.580 Abbie Rosner: who's.
00:42:34.580 --> 00:42:35.750 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: race.
00:42:35.750 --> 00:42:36.260 Abbie Rosner: Right.
00:42:36.260 --> 00:42:41.609 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: About facing his imminent demise, but being able to do it with
00:42:42.030 --> 00:42:48.190 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: wonder and curiosity. And he said, you know, sometimes he had his bad days, too.
00:42:48.190 --> 00:42:48.980 Abbie Rosner: of course.
00:42:48.980 --> 00:42:56.719 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: But the fact that he was able To face this… this… Most challenging part of life.
00:42:57.530 --> 00:43:02.559 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: As you said, with his eyes open, and with even curiosity.
00:43:03.190 --> 00:43:09.849 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I just remember, like, by the time he got off stage, like, he had a standing ovation, there was not a dry eye in that.
00:43:09.850 --> 00:43:11.899 Abbie Rosner: There was not a dry eye in the house.
00:43:11.900 --> 00:43:23.229 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah, it was really something beautiful, and I just thought, wow, if I could even get some percentage of that poise when I face my own death.
00:43:23.570 --> 00:43:25.600 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Like, that was really something.
00:43:25.600 --> 00:43:36.720 Abbie Rosner: Right. Well, I just would like to add on that note that, you know, I think a lot about what the boomers, you know, we were the generation that revolutionized youth.
00:43:36.870 --> 00:43:48.329 Abbie Rosner: And we really, you know, we were pretty, pivotal in a societal perspective on, you know, our impact. And I feel like if we can
00:43:49.060 --> 00:44:00.270 Abbie Rosner: you know, the same pioneering generation. If we can offer our society a very, very different envision of what older life is, and really…
00:44:00.560 --> 00:44:02.310 Abbie Rosner: normalize.
00:44:03.090 --> 00:44:07.710 Abbie Rosner: conversation around death, then we've made a huge contribution.
00:44:08.220 --> 00:44:09.240 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm, mmm.
00:44:09.240 --> 00:44:14.890 Abbie Rosner: So that's… that's really what I'm hoping to contribute into that conversation with… with my book.
00:44:15.470 --> 00:44:21.180 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So… Is your book… geared towards…
00:44:22.340 --> 00:44:33.740 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Other elder people maybe interested in psychedelics, or is it more geared towards, like, the population in general, to give people a different view of…
00:44:33.890 --> 00:44:37.800 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Of… of how… how to deal with becoming older.
00:44:38.390 --> 00:44:54.599 Abbie Rosner: You know, I really worked very hard when I wrote my book to make it as accessible, as, you know, as easy to read, and as, you know, inviting as possible. So I start the book… I don't know if we have time before the break, but,
00:44:54.600 --> 00:45:12.290 Abbie Rosner: I start the book with an examination, or an explanation, I call it, you know, it's… I call it while you were out. You know, I want to explain to the… to an older adult population that maybe hasn't thought about psychedelics for 50 years, like, what's happened in the psychedelic world since then?
00:45:12.310 --> 00:45:12.930 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm…
00:45:12.930 --> 00:45:30.420 Abbie Rosner: And to bring them up to speed, basically, on the developments in the clinical research, the guidelines for safe and meaningful journeying. Like, we now know how to use these medicines safely, without worrying about the… I mean, there's always a concern, but without…
00:45:30.420 --> 00:45:33.269 Abbie Rosner: Taking steps so that it won't be a bad trip.
00:45:33.270 --> 00:45:46.409 Abbie Rosner: You know, and so… so the basic information, that's the first part of the book. And then the second part of the book, which we can talk about afterwards, is… looks specifically at what these experiences offer us in older age.
00:45:46.410 --> 00:45:55.169 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. All right, time to take our last break. When we come back, I actually have, a different question around more
00:45:55.380 --> 00:46:13.449 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: are there different considerations for older people coming into this work than when we're younger? Because I think it's kind of important, like, there are always certain considerations, regardless of medical considerations, mental health considerations, but specifically if there are different considerations that.
00:46:13.450 --> 00:46:16.700 Abbie Rosner: If there's an older person listening to this show.
00:46:16.710 --> 00:46:36.369 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: what they should consider before getting involved with this, okay? So, we'll deal with that right after this. Okay. So everyone, please stay tuned. You're listening to The Conscious Consultant Hour, Awakening Humanity. We've been speaking this hour with Abby Rosner, author of the upcoming book, Psychedelics and the Counter Culture of Aging, and we'll be right back to finish it all up.
00:47:41.870 --> 00:47:54.810 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: So, Abby, as I mentioned, if somebody listening to this book, listening to this episode, and they're a fellow baby boomer or mature adult, and they've gotten curious from the things we've said.
00:47:54.810 --> 00:48:04.370 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: What sort of considerations that are unique to people who are older do you think they should think about before getting involved with this?
00:48:04.750 --> 00:48:17.050 Abbie Rosner: Okay, well, there's, you know, there's many considerations, obviously, as you know, as an older adult. I guess we, you know, can start with the very basic physical considerations. So.
00:48:17.070 --> 00:48:32.100 Abbie Rosner: You know, different psychedelic medicines have different effects on the body, and there are certain ones that are more, you know, more appropriate for older adults, certain ones that are less appropriate. So, I think that what every
00:48:32.100 --> 00:48:41.460 Abbie Rosner: Every older adult, before they consider using any psychedelic medicine, is to Check with the healthcare provider.
00:48:41.460 --> 00:48:41.880 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Hmm.
00:48:41.880 --> 00:48:48.540 Abbie Rosner: Share your medical history, the medications that you're taking, and make sure that it is safe
00:48:48.690 --> 00:48:54.309 Abbie Rosner: for you to, use these, these, medicines. So…
00:48:54.580 --> 00:49:02.689 Abbie Rosner: you might be saying, oh, well, I don't really feel very comfortable talking to my physician about, you know.
00:49:02.950 --> 00:49:11.930 Abbie Rosner: wanting to do psychedelics. So, I can say that there are, professionals out there who… who do, provide
00:49:12.120 --> 00:49:17.050 Abbie Rosner: services. They will, they will evaluate your medical,
00:49:17.430 --> 00:49:27.729 Abbie Rosner: condition, look at your medications. Now, this isn't medical advice, obviously, but there… Right. But, but that… there are options for that.
00:49:28.170 --> 00:49:33.030 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yes, I recently signed up for a course from Ben Malcolm at Spirit Pharmacist.
00:49:33.030 --> 00:49:34.180 Abbie Rosner: Spirit Pharmacist.
00:49:34.180 --> 00:49:39.840 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: who's really, really good, and he actually… you can get a consultation with him, so… Yes, yes.
00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:43.780 Abbie Rosner: He's the one I was thinking of, and Malcolm Spirit Pharmacist.
00:49:43.780 --> 00:49:44.170 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah.
00:49:44.170 --> 00:49:48.219 Abbie Rosner: So, I mean, I didn't know if it's a… if we could mention that on the show or not, but…
00:49:48.220 --> 00:49:50.510 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Why not? Give him some free publicity.
00:49:50.510 --> 00:49:56.669 Abbie Rosner: Yeah, yeah, no, he's great. Ben Malcolm is great, he's the spirit pharmacist, and he will… he's a…
00:49:57.640 --> 00:50:02.070 Abbie Rosner: pharma… I can't remember exactly what his official credentials are.
00:50:02.070 --> 00:50:03.500 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Psychopharmacologist.
00:50:03.500 --> 00:50:25.559 Abbie Rosner: Yes, and he… that… he offers consultation, so he will evaluate your medical condition, your medical history, your medications, and help you decide a dose, maybe a dosage, tweaking, or… or whether, you know, tapering off SSRI, whatever… whatever he'll suggest. So that's… that's the first thing, is the… the, the
00:50:25.560 --> 00:50:32.549 Abbie Rosner: pure physical aspect of it. And then the mental, let's say your mental state.
00:50:32.610 --> 00:50:43.139 Abbie Rosner: Again, something to… to consider if you're in… if it's a time of intense, you know, difficulties, maybe not the greatest time to… to,
00:50:43.300 --> 00:50:53.849 Abbie Rosner: start with psychedelics, or you want to find a facilitator who's a trained therapist who specializes. In any case, there's a lot of due diligence to do.
00:50:54.570 --> 00:51:03.490 Abbie Rosner: before any older adult, would want to embark on any of these, these experiences. And then I'll also say that
00:51:03.600 --> 00:51:17.470 Abbie Rosner: There are other considerations. Maybe you want to have an experience like this, but you don't really know how to go about doing it. You know, you don't have a connection to the underground, or you don't want to grow your own mushrooms.
00:51:17.650 --> 00:51:28.339 Abbie Rosner: I really am a big proponent for older adults of the programs in Colorado and Oregon. If you have the financial resources.
00:51:28.430 --> 00:51:39.850 Abbie Rosner: In both of those states, you can have a regulated psilocybin experience with a licensed facilitator, with lab-tested mushrooms.
00:51:39.940 --> 00:51:52.639 Abbie Rosner: Including preparation beforehand and integration afterwards, it's a great opportunity for a safe and controlled, Psilocybin experience.
00:51:52.640 --> 00:52:02.560 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And they did just pass a bill into law in New Jersey. It's not legalized yet in New Jersey, but they are… have created a pilot program through a hospital
00:52:02.560 --> 00:52:18.640 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Where I'm sure they're going to be looking for people to participate in their study, in their pilot program, so if you live in New Jersey, I would suggest finding out about that, find out what hospitals are going to be involved, and see if you can apply to be a participant.
00:52:19.090 --> 00:52:29.690 Abbie Rosner: Right, right. Yeah, I'm not sure exactly how the New Jersey program is going. I think they wanted to model it on the… maybe on the Colorado and Oregon, which is not involved in a hospital. They have… they're service centers.
00:52:29.690 --> 00:52:45.520 Abbie Rosner: But I mean, I don't know, I really don't know, and that's, you know, that's still in the pipeline, let's put it that way. So I think it's… I think older adults really need to find what their comfort level is, you know, with, you know, doing something that's outside of the consensus.
00:52:45.610 --> 00:52:55.600 Abbie Rosner: So, but I am excited about these state legal programs, because I think they really do offer a really solid alternative for older adults.
00:52:55.600 --> 00:53:08.809 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah. We only have a few minutes left. I really wanted to get to talking about your newsletter, Elder Revolution, and just what is your intention behind it, and what do you sort of talk about on that newsletter?
00:53:08.810 --> 00:53:22.869 Abbie Rosner: Okay, well, so I can… I'll just say that writing a book is kind of like having a child, and, you know, it's… it's with all the, you know, waiting, and all the pain, and all the… ugh. But anyway, but once that… once I…
00:53:22.870 --> 00:53:29.160 Abbie Rosner: finished the book, finished my manuscript, and sent it to the publisher. I kind of had postpartum depression.
00:53:29.160 --> 00:53:38.440 Abbie Rosner: And I… I thought, what am I going to do with myself when I'm not researching and writing about psychedelics in older life? Which became such a passion for me. And that's when…
00:53:38.470 --> 00:53:58.370 Abbie Rosner: that was one motivation for starting the newsletter, and the other news… the other motivation was, I realized that when people… when the book does come out, and it's going to be coming out in July, people are going to read the book and go, okay, well, yeah, sounds good, now what? Now what? Like, now what do I do? And they're going to turn to me and say.
00:53:58.370 --> 00:53:58.830 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Will.
00:53:58.830 --> 00:54:10.439 Abbie Rosner: okay, Abby, what do I do now? And so I decided to create this newsletter as kind of a resource for older adults, where I could have, like, a dialogue with
00:54:10.440 --> 00:54:26.329 Abbie Rosner: you know, people who are interested in this topic, where they could send me questions, or where I can, you know, I can cover just different aspects of the experience of older… of… the newsletter is called Elder Revolution, the newsletter of Psychedelics in Older Life.
00:54:26.350 --> 00:54:40.420 Abbie Rosner: So that's really my topic, and I'm looking at various aspects of it, from clinical trials to, you know, I'm just… I just was talking to you about an article I want to write now about older… having older facilitators, the value
00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:59.949 Abbie Rosner: older facilitator when you're an older adult. So if you have a choice, like in Colorado or Oregon, you can choose your facilitator. So maybe you want to, like, really think about, as you review the various facilitators that are available, to think of working with somebody with more life experience.
00:54:59.950 --> 00:55:04.639 Abbie Rosner: So things… issues like that. And the newsletter's free to subscribe.
00:55:04.650 --> 00:55:15.140 Abbie Rosner: And it is… I think it's… it's, www.abbyrosner… dot substack.com.
00:55:15.160 --> 00:55:17.800 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Abbyrosnard.substack.com, yeah.
00:55:17.800 --> 00:55:26.519 Abbie Rosner: Yeah, so anyway, free to… free to subscribe. You know, if you're interested in the topic, I'd love to have you, as a reader.
00:55:26.520 --> 00:55:35.110 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yeah, and the book is being published in July, as you said. I believe it's… you… you can pre-order it now.
00:55:35.110 --> 00:55:37.110 Abbie Rosner: Yes, it's available for pre-order.
00:55:37.110 --> 00:55:43.149 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Right, but won't come out. Highly, highly recommend it. The link to that will be in the show notes.
00:55:43.150 --> 00:55:43.520 Abbie Rosner: Okay.
00:55:43.650 --> 00:55:49.180 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: And Abby, if people want to learn more about you, get in touch with you, where can they find you online?
00:55:49.180 --> 00:55:53.880 Abbie Rosner: Well, I do have a website, www.abbyrosner.com.
00:55:54.810 --> 00:56:09.000 Abbie Rosner: And abbyroz at gmail.com, that's my email. If you're… if you're an older adult, have an interesting story, want to share, you know, I always love to hear these stories. I'm actually thinking about my next book, so…
00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:13.010 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: I was gonna… that was gonna be my next question, is there another book on the horizon?
00:56:13.010 --> 00:56:24.080 Abbie Rosner: Oh, you know, there is, and I just have started to sketch it out, so yes, there is, and it's looking at the experience of older adults, but kind of through a different lens.
00:56:24.080 --> 00:56:35.849 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Through a different lens, okay, okay. And just lastly, to kind of tie this all up, do you ever regret that you didn't get back into this sooner?
00:56:36.210 --> 00:56:40.740 Abbie Rosner: No regrets. No regrets. No regrets. I don't have a shred of regret of anything.
00:56:40.740 --> 00:56:41.210 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: 1…
00:56:41.210 --> 00:56:43.459 Abbie Rosner: I'm looking forward, not backwards.
00:56:43.460 --> 00:56:56.520 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Wonderful, wonderful. Abby, it's been a pleasure having you on the show. Thank you so much. We'll definitely have you come back on, after, you know, in July or August, after the book comes out.
00:56:56.520 --> 00:56:57.979 Abbie Rosner: Great, great, I love that.
00:56:57.980 --> 00:57:04.449 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: You know, hear some of the reactions, and definitely you'll let me know when your next book is getting ready to come out.
00:57:04.450 --> 00:57:05.130 Abbie Rosner: Yes, that…
00:57:05.480 --> 00:57:10.850 Abbie Rosner: That'll be a very happy day. Well, thank you, Sam. It's been a joy to talk about my favorite topic.
00:57:10.850 --> 00:57:11.880 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Yes.
00:57:11.880 --> 00:57:17.159 Abbie Rosner: Pleasure, a pleasure having you. And of course, thank you, my loyal listeners.
00:57:17.160 --> 00:57:36.010 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: For tuning in each week. Without you, there is no show. I so appreciate you. Don't forget about the other shows on the network this evening at 5 p.m. Eastern Time, Frank Harrison and his show, Frank About Health. And tomorrow, Friday at 10 a.m. Eastern Time, Tommy DeMisa and his show, Philanthropy and Focus.
00:57:36.010 --> 00:57:41.120 Sam Liebowitz | The Conscious Consultant: Thank you all for tuning in. Take care, we will talk to you all next week.
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