Ever wonder why your best advice falls flat? Or why it's hard to give good feedback successfully? If you've ever struggled with giving feedback that doesn't stick, managing teams that feel disconnected, or making decisions with incomplete information, this episode offers a mindset shift that transforms not just conversations, but organizational culture itself.
You've been there: a colleague asks for help, you offer your hard-won wisdom, and it lands like a lead balloon. They've already tried it. Or worse, they nod politely and do nothing. Or you offer mentorship to help a new team member or someone earlier in their career avoid the mistakes you made. You thought you were doing them a favor but instead, it felt unappreciated. The problem? You diagnosed and told before you understood.
Peter Schein—consultant, author, and collaborator with his late father, legendary MIT Professor Ed Schein—joins me to explore Humble Inquiry, a deceptively simple practice that transforms how leaders navigate complexity and improve organizational effectiveness. This isn't about active listening techniques you learned in your last training. It's about fundamentally shifting a culturally-embedded mindset from transactional, efficiency-focused exchanges to one that requires the art and attitude for greater human effectiveness.
We dive into why efficiency often sabotages effectiveness, how AI and remote work make this skill more critical than ever, and what types of conversations unlock breakthrough thinking.
***
ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Peter Schein is a consultant, author and keynote speaker based in Menlo Park, CA. Following a 30 year career in Silicon Valley, Peter teamed up with his father, renowned MIT Professor Ed Schein to start the Organizational Culture and Leadership Institute. Over eight years together Peter and Ed published seven books and numerous papers on Humble Inquiry, Organizational Culture, Careers, and Humble Leadership. Peters continues the work following his father's death in 2023 with the recent release of Humble Inquiry 3rd Edition. Peter has a BA in Social Anthropology from Stanford and an MBA from Kellogg/Northwestern.
***
FIND OUR GUEST HERE:
www.ocli.org
***
IF YOU ENJOYED THIS EPISODE, CAN I ASK A FAVOR?
We do not receive any funding or sponsorship for this podcast. If you learned something and feel others could also benefit, please leave a positive review. Every review helps amplify our work and visibility. This is especially helpful for small women-owned boot-strapped businesses. Simply go to the bottom of the Apple Podcast page to enter a review. Thank you!
Subscribe to my free newsletter at: mailchi.mp/2079c04f4d44/subscribe
Work with me one-on-one: calendly.com/mira-brancu/30-minute-initial-consultation
Connect with me on LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/MiraBrancu
Learn more about my services: www.gotowerscope.com
Get practical workplace politics tips from my books: gotowerscope.com/books
Add this podcast to your feed: www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-hard-skills-dr-mira-brancu-m0QzwsFiBGE/
In the opening segment, Dr. Mira Brancu introduces guest Peter Schein, a consultant and author who worked in Silicon Valley for 30 years before teaming up with his father, renowned MIT professor Ed Schein, to focus on organizational culture and leadership. Mira then asks Peter to discuss his career shift from corporate roles in Silicon Valley to focusing on group dynamics and organizational behavior, influenced by his father's work in social psychology. Peter then expresses concerns about the "move fast and break things" mentality in tech, preferring a more collaborative approach that values psychological safety and open relationships. Peter and Mira explore the concept of humble inquiry, which he defined as an art and attitude of asking questions to draw others out, emphasizing curiosity, listening, and vulnerability in group contexts.
In the second segment, Mira and Peter discuss the differences between humble inquiry and coaching or counseling mindsets, emphasizing that humble inquiry focuses on team dynamics and shared vulnerability. Peter highlights the importance of revealing oneself in the inquiry process to foster psychological safety and trust. Mira brings up a good question in asking why leaders might resist slowing down to adopt this approach, and Peter suggests that leaders might see it as an additional effort, but he emphasizes its value in building trust and openness within teams.
In this segment, Peter and Mira discuss the importance of being mindful and intentional in both inquiry and relationships. Peter introduces a four-level model of relationships, ranging from domination/exploitation (level -1) to professional intimacy (level 3), with level 0 representing competition and level 1 representing collaboration. They emphasize the need to practice humility and purposefulness in all interactions, as it can be challenging to maintain these qualities, especially in high-emotion situations.
In this closing segment, Peter and Mira discussed a four-level model of workplace relationships, ranging from transactional (Level 1) to intimate (Level 3), with Level 2 representing personal relationships that enhance effectiveness. They explore how humble inquiry and feedback should focus on understanding the person's perspective rather than giving advice, using an example of an aircraft carrier captain who chose to investigate the root cause of an issue rather than immediately providing feedback. Peter emphasizes that effective feedback involves asking questions to uncover underlying issues, rather than simply telling someone what they did wrong.
00:00:51.160 --> 00:00:59.080 Mira Brancu: Hello, hello, and welcome to the Hard Skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou. Today, we are talking about something every leader
00:00:59.660 --> 00:01:01.810 Mira Brancu: Actually, every person
00:01:02.050 --> 00:01:15.040 Mira Brancu: does constantly, and usually gets it wrong, and it includes me, includes you, okay? You know that moment when someone asks you for your input, your advice, your feedback?
00:01:15.180 --> 00:01:21.939 Mira Brancu: And then you willingly share your expertise, and then, somehow, it completely misses the mark.
00:01:22.210 --> 00:01:25.910 Mira Brancu: They tell you they tried it already, or that it won't work.
00:01:26.140 --> 00:01:32.110 Mira Brancu: And you ask yourself, why did they ask my advice if they're not gonna take it?
00:01:32.310 --> 00:01:33.090 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:01:33.490 --> 00:01:34.759 Mira Brancu: We've all been there.
00:01:35.080 --> 00:01:36.489 Mira Brancu: There's a reason for that.
00:01:36.730 --> 00:01:40.740 Mira Brancu: Today, we're diving into the concept of humble inquiry.
00:01:40.910 --> 00:01:48.000 Mira Brancu: And how it can transform everything from performance conversations to organizational culture.
00:01:49.180 --> 00:02:03.249 Mira Brancu: to your normal conversations with your loved ones. So, let me introduce our guest today, Peter Schein. Peter Schein is a consultant, author, and keynote speaker based in Menlo Park, California.
00:02:03.350 --> 00:02:11.470 Mira Brancu: Following a 30-year career in Silicon Valley, Peter teamed up with his father, renowned MIT professor Ed Schein.
00:02:11.860 --> 00:02:28.610 Mira Brancu: a foundational researcher of organizational behavior, group process consultation, and organizational culture to start the Organization Culture and Leadership Institute. Over 8 years together, Peter and Ed published 7 books
00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:35.099 Mira Brancu: And numerous papers on humble inquiry, organizational culture, careers, and humble leadership.
00:02:36.270 --> 00:02:47.579 Mira Brancu: Peter's work continues to follow his father's death in 2023, with a recent release of Humble Inquiry 3rd Edition. Yes, I have it!
00:02:47.730 --> 00:02:58.760 Mira Brancu: Peter has a Bachelor's in Social Anthropology from Stanford and an MBA from Kellogg Northwestern, so I'm super excited to talk with him today. Welcome, Peter.
00:02:59.210 --> 00:03:01.869 Peter Schein: Thank you very much, Mira, it's great to be here.
00:03:01.870 --> 00:03:03.110 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah.
00:03:03.200 --> 00:03:21.900 Mira Brancu: So, you know, I also should give a shout out to my supervisor, Dr. Steven White, if you're listening, thank you. Stephen White is… was my supervisor within the National Center for Organizational Development within the Department of Veterans Affairs.
00:03:21.900 --> 00:03:40.569 Mira Brancu: And he was the one that introduced me to humble inquiry, humble leadership, humble consulting, and the entire idea of process consultation. He trained me in that. That's how they train within the Department of Veterans Affairs Organizational Development Center.
00:03:40.570 --> 00:03:42.020 Mira Brancu: So,
00:03:42.170 --> 00:03:56.199 Mira Brancu: I really appreciated learning, all of this, and the fact that here I am, five years later, talking to Peter Schein about this is, super cool to be able to finally do that. So, Peter.
00:03:56.460 --> 00:04:09.970 Mira Brancu: you worked in Silicon Valley for 30 years, right? And, then you decided to shift in… more into organizational culture, and effectiveness and leadership with your father.
00:04:10.150 --> 00:04:29.010 Mira Brancu: And I'm curious, how did you get to that shift? And, what were some of the, sort of, like, defining moments during that shift where either you had to learn or unlearn things in order to move in that direction from your 30-year career?
00:04:29.010 --> 00:04:32.640 Peter Schein: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question, but I guess, in a way.
00:04:32.780 --> 00:04:41.909 Peter Schein: I would say that, you know how we have jobs and we have professions? Or we have things that we do, and we have ways that we think?
00:04:42.170 --> 00:04:49.739 Peter Schein: I don't think I was ever not thinking this way. I think I always had that perspective
00:04:49.800 --> 00:05:04.230 Peter Schein: In my, you know, marketing and business development jobs in Silicon Valley, in my corporate development jobs in Silicon Valley, certainly, I did M&A work for Sun Microsystems for many years, and…
00:05:04.230 --> 00:05:23.709 Peter Schein: You know, we can think about M&A as successful if it's, you know, financially accretive, or if, you know, we gain a bunch of important intellectual property. We can also think of it as how well did we integrate a talented group of other people into our organization.
00:05:23.780 --> 00:05:31.090 Peter Schein: I think as somebody who grew up, you know, at my dad's dinner table, I was always thinking about
00:05:31.310 --> 00:05:36.839 Peter Schein: You know, who are these people? What makes them tick? Are they gonna fit?
00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:42.320 Peter Schein: In this, you know, this division, or this large organization.
00:05:42.360 --> 00:06:01.959 Peter Schein: So I guess I feel like while I had many jobs in Silicon Valley, I was never far off from thinking about, groups and group dynamics, and this is all stuff that came straight from my dad. You know, going back to majoring in anthropology, that's…
00:06:02.250 --> 00:06:16.239 Peter Schein: I could have done a bunch of things at Stanford, but that was the thing that was interesting to me. It happened to be at the same time that my older sister was doing her PhD in anthropology, so I was never far away from the family business.
00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:18.910 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah, it was in the water as you grew up.
00:06:18.910 --> 00:06:19.750 Peter Schein: Yeah, exactly.
00:06:19.750 --> 00:06:36.439 Mira Brancu: Always, sounds like at the dinner table. Yeah, I mean, I look at my own kids, they are, you know, 19 and 16, and they're like mini psychologists, and I'm like, don't go into psychology! But, like, they can't help themselves because that's how we raise them, right?
00:06:36.440 --> 00:06:49.910 Peter Schein: You know, it's very interesting you bring that up, because my dad was, I guess, technically, you would have called him a social psychologist. Yeah. But given so much of his work at places like NTL,
00:06:49.950 --> 00:07:09.040 Peter Schein: it really was more about groups and group behavior than it was about individuals and individual behavior. And so, I came to that moment of truth at Stanford as an undergrad, where I was quite connected to the psychology department. I did psychology experiments all the time.
00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:13.430 Peter Schein: But I realized that that's not what was interesting to me, it was how…
00:07:13.430 --> 00:07:21.210 Peter Schein: Groups figure stuff out, not how individual personalities, you know, end up getting expressed in different parts of work.
00:07:21.300 --> 00:07:24.379 Peter Schein: So, yeah, that's the…
00:07:25.460 --> 00:07:26.940 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and that resonates.
00:07:26.940 --> 00:07:27.809 Peter Schein: that up from him.
00:07:28.030 --> 00:07:35.290 Mira Brancu: That resonates for me, too. I did, start out as a school counselor first.
00:07:35.310 --> 00:07:54.649 Mira Brancu: And, that was a lot of group stuff. And then I went into clinical psychology mainly because I wanted to understand what I was seeing when I was… when they were coming to me one-on-one with more significant or severe, concerns, mental health issues. But because of my upbringing.
00:07:54.900 --> 00:08:04.769 Mira Brancu: you know, as an immigrant and in an area of New York, especially being brought up in a highly diverse area, I was constantly curious about
00:08:04.810 --> 00:08:19.140 Mira Brancu: Cultural factors, social factors, what led people to succeed in certain cultures and certain, you know, situations versus others, and that turned into what leads people to succeed within organizations when you could
00:08:19.140 --> 00:08:25.759 Mira Brancu: take the same person in two different places, and it doesn't work in one place, and it does work in another. What are those…
00:08:25.760 --> 00:08:31.150 Mira Brancu: Sort of other factors, and that's a lot of group and organizational influences.
00:08:31.310 --> 00:08:32.370 Peter Schein: Right, right.
00:08:32.370 --> 00:08:32.909 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:08:32.919 --> 00:08:37.819 Peter Schein: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that we struggle with, I think, in Silicon Valley is the…
00:08:38.079 --> 00:08:43.869 Peter Schein: The sort of the icons and the charisma around certain famous leaders.
00:08:43.870 --> 00:08:44.310 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:08:44.310 --> 00:08:46.179 Peter Schein: And…
00:08:46.290 --> 00:08:55.850 Peter Schein: Whether that's really what drives organizations, or whether it's their, effectiveness once they get going on things.
00:08:56.050 --> 00:09:03.139 Peter Schein: And I often saw that… that balance between… you know.
00:09:03.350 --> 00:09:07.760 Peter Schein: Brilliant ideas that just are begged to be followed.
00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:21.909 Peter Schein: Or very effective teams that figure stuff out at the margin and create innovation that will change, you know, things. Or, you know, I worked at Apple, so we were changing the world all the time.
00:09:22.270 --> 00:09:28.240 Peter Schein: But the other thing, though, about Silicon Valley that I want to mention, Mira, is that
00:09:28.510 --> 00:09:30.270 Peter Schein: I wasn't that…
00:09:30.530 --> 00:09:43.329 Peter Schein: And maybe it's because I was there a little bit before… I was there in the early days, before there was infinite bandwidth, before there was infinite memory, before there was infinite storage.
00:09:43.470 --> 00:09:50.649 Peter Schein: I was there in the, sort of, the constrained technology part of the, you know, innovation cycle.
00:09:50.820 --> 00:09:52.380 Peter Schein: And,
00:09:52.520 --> 00:10:00.740 Peter Schein: So, one thing I saw developing with… was this idea of, you know, the whole mentality of move fast and break things.
00:10:01.350 --> 00:10:08.699 Peter Schein: And I think that… I didn't really… I didn't really agree with that. And I think that's partly because
00:10:08.980 --> 00:10:13.760 Peter Schein: You know, I grew up in a world where we have to figure out how to work together as a team.
00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:19.380 Peter Schein: And if you're just always moving fast and breaking things, then you're breaking relationships as well.
00:10:19.490 --> 00:10:24.989 Peter Schein: So it's one thing with software where you can, you know, do a dot release and fix it.
00:10:25.160 --> 00:10:30.489 Peter Schein: But if you've… if you're breaking relationships with other human beings that you work with.
00:10:30.650 --> 00:10:38.489 Peter Schein: Because you, you know, tried something that was radical, and other people violently disagreed with you. It's just…
00:10:38.570 --> 00:10:58.170 Peter Schein: it's a… it's a sort of a disruption for the sake of disruption that I just didn't think was entirely right. So that was part of why I kind of got interested in doing stuff with my dad, is that we wanted to write about this. We wanted to rant about this a little bit.
00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:01.679 Peter Schein: And that's what led to the Humble Leadership books, so…
00:11:01.970 --> 00:11:09.799 Mira Brancu: So interesting, yeah. So, there was already something that didn't feel quite right in terms of, how you felt
00:11:11.450 --> 00:11:21.999 Peter Schein: I mean, you know, it's me. I'm sort of… I'm an older guy, you know, there might be plenty of 38-year-olds out there who feel like I got it wrong. I'm fine with that.
00:11:22.020 --> 00:11:38.859 Peter Schein: But I also feel like there are plenty of examples of super innovators in Silicon Valley who have recognized the importance of things like psychological safety and things like open and trusting relationships.
00:11:38.880 --> 00:11:43.030 Peter Schein: And I believe, in the end, those are the ones whose innovations stick.
00:11:43.370 --> 00:11:49.700 Peter Schein: You know, you can move fast, fast, and break things all the time, but if you can't build an organization
00:11:49.850 --> 00:12:02.729 Peter Schein: that has open and trusting relationships, then you don't make it to the next innovation. You just end up, you know, people leaving and splitting off and doing that great work somewhere else, so…
00:12:02.730 --> 00:12:09.060 Mira Brancu: Absolutely. Well, I mean, you're preaching to the choir. So let's get into humble inquiry.
00:12:10.160 --> 00:12:11.059 Mira Brancu: What is it?
00:12:11.550 --> 00:12:18.240 Peter Schein: Well, if you don't mind, indulge me. I do want to read the definition of it, because it, you know…
00:12:18.530 --> 00:12:21.320 Peter Schein: My father and I probably spent…
00:12:22.170 --> 00:12:37.629 Peter Schein: you know, we were pretty… we found it pretty easy to write together, but I suspect we spent a lot of time on this… this little… this little half-page. So, we… we always wanted to characterize it as an art and as an attitude.
00:12:38.130 --> 00:12:41.430 Peter Schein: And within that, of course, there's a skill set.
00:12:41.800 --> 00:12:49.740 Peter Schein: But let's first talk about it as an art. Humble inquiry is the fine art of drawing someone out.
00:12:50.020 --> 00:12:54.309 Peter Schein: Of asking questions to which you do not already know the answer.
00:12:55.080 --> 00:13:00.969 Peter Schein: Of building a relationship based on curiosity and interest in another person.
00:13:01.490 --> 00:13:06.550 Peter Schein: And I would add to that curiosity and interest in how
00:13:06.760 --> 00:13:10.859 Peter Schein: How we're doing as a group, or how we're doing as a team.
00:13:11.100 --> 00:13:19.609 Peter Schein: We have to be thinking about that context, not just ourselves or our relationship with one other person.
00:13:20.460 --> 00:13:31.600 Peter Schein: So, and then the attitude part is, humble inquiry is not just asking questions, it's a total attitude that includes listening more deeply to how others respond to our inquiry.
00:13:31.850 --> 00:13:39.870 Peter Schein: Responding… Empathetically, and revealing more of ourselves in the relationship-building process.
00:13:40.220 --> 00:13:43.910 Peter Schein: So, it isn't just asking questions.
00:13:44.110 --> 00:13:54.229 Peter Schein: It's asking questions that represent an attitude of curiosity, And maybe are willing to…
00:13:54.640 --> 00:13:57.229 Peter Schein: Betray our vulnerability a little bit.
00:13:57.560 --> 00:14:05.160 Peter Schein: We were… it's… part of the attitude is representing to other people that you embrace the fact that you don't know everything.
00:14:05.430 --> 00:14:07.760 Peter Schein: And that the group knows more than you do.
00:14:08.510 --> 00:14:16.619 Peter Schein: So how do you… how do you express that attitude? So that's the art and the attitude of humble inquiry.
00:14:17.260 --> 00:14:27.809 Mira Brancu: I'm… so, we're reaching an ad break, but here's my, initial thought. I was gonna ask you, you know, how you see this as different from
00:14:27.810 --> 00:14:44.949 Mira Brancu: a coaching mindset or attitude, or a counseling mindset or attitude, where you have some of the same elements, open-ended questions, you know, active listening, but I think I've heard two things so far that might differentiate.
00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:48.210 Mira Brancu: So let me know if I got these right so far, and if there's more.
00:14:48.400 --> 00:15:05.429 Mira Brancu: One is that it's focused on the team, and drawing the team out, and sort of, like, leveraging the information and knowledge, experiences of the group, and appreciating that. And then the second was willing to betray vulnerability, which in a
00:15:05.540 --> 00:15:14.509 Mira Brancu: Coaching or counseling relationship generally doesn't happen because the focus is only on the individual, and not at all on the coach or
00:15:14.840 --> 00:15:18.080 Mira Brancu: consultant, counselor. What do you think about that assessment?
00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:34.620 Peter Schein: I think that's great. I think you nailed it, because, again, think about where this came from. This came from group dynamics more than individual psychology, so that's the first point. And then I think the second point is that,
00:15:34.790 --> 00:15:39.849 Peter Schein: It's… we talk about humble inquiry as if it's I to you.
00:15:40.250 --> 00:15:57.420 Peter Schein: But it's also you to me. It's a sharing process that we have to, you know, we have to recognize. So as skillful as we might be at inquiry, we also have to be skillful at revealing a little bit about ourselves, because the endpoint is…
00:15:57.820 --> 00:16:09.929 Peter Schein: psychological safety, or the end point, is open… openness and trust. And if we can't reveal a little, we might be great inquirers, but we also have to be good revealers.
00:16:10.540 --> 00:16:24.559 Mira Brancu: Perfect, beautiful, love it. Okay, I have a million other questions, but we are reaching an ad break, so you are listening to the Hard Skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Dr. Peter Schein, author of Humble Inquiry and Humble Leadership.
00:16:24.560 --> 00:16:32.010 Mira Brancu: The Hard Skills is sponsored by Towerscope, my leadership and team development consulting firm. You can learn more about that at gotowerscope.com.
00:16:32.130 --> 00:16:47.240 Mira Brancu: The Heart Skills Show livestreams on Tuesdays at 5 p.m. Eastern Time on LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitter, Twitch, many other places through talkradio.nyc. If you are here right now at 5 p.m. Eastern on a Tuesday.
00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:54.949 Mira Brancu: you can join us, and you can even ask questions directly to Peter Schein. So, we will be right back in just a moment.
00:18:36.500 --> 00:18:40.970 Mira Brancu: Welcome, welcome back to The Hard Skills with Peter Schein, our guest today.
00:18:41.260 --> 00:19:00.750 Mira Brancu: So, Peter, you described humble inquiry as an art and an attitude, the focus being on a group process, extracting the knowledge, through curiosity, through, shared vulnerability.
00:19:01.010 --> 00:19:08.219 Mira Brancu: And, already, Some leaders might be listening to this, and they might say.
00:19:08.900 --> 00:19:14.890 Mira Brancu: Sounds great! I don't have time for that. Can we go back to breaking things and moving back?
00:19:15.010 --> 00:19:19.559 Mira Brancu: What would you say to that? Like, what… why would a leader
00:19:19.820 --> 00:19:24.980 Mira Brancu: Want to slow down and put in that amount of effort.
00:19:25.220 --> 00:19:27.700 Mira Brancu: Into the work that they do.
00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:28.540 Peter Schein: Right.
00:19:28.990 --> 00:19:30.490 Peter Schein: Well, he…
00:19:30.760 --> 00:19:42.460 Peter Schein: you're sort of touching on what we try to characterize from the very outset as the primary benefits of humble inquiry. And the first benefit, is…
00:19:42.590 --> 00:19:45.329 Peter Schein: Just purely information gathering.
00:19:45.710 --> 00:19:52.750 Peter Schein: That there is… there are tidbits of information In the other person.
00:19:52.870 --> 00:19:57.299 Peter Schein: In the room, in the team, in the division.
00:19:57.450 --> 00:20:00.050 Peter Schein: That if you're not out there.
00:20:00.150 --> 00:20:09.200 Peter Schein: Trying to really figure out what's going on. Not just the content, Of… that makes decisions hard.
00:20:09.310 --> 00:20:13.430 Peter Schein: But also the context that those decisions are going to be made in.
00:20:13.660 --> 00:20:16.280 Peter Schein: I'm always feeling myself
00:20:17.450 --> 00:20:27.139 Peter Schein: wanting to emphasize this idea of, what's going on at the time? What's the context that we're trying to make hard decisions in?
00:20:27.410 --> 00:20:35.619 Peter Schein: Now again, that seems like, Jesus, if I'm… if I'm always just kind of poking around, trying to figure out what's going on.
00:20:35.620 --> 00:20:48.010 Peter Schein: I am going to not have time to spend, you know, on the hard decisions and the hard information that I have to assimilate and filter and make decisions within.
00:20:48.350 --> 00:20:57.570 Peter Schein: I get that, but I just sort of feel like, well, isn't it great, then, that we have generative AI to help us with the content?
00:20:57.710 --> 00:21:03.550 Peter Schein: Because you, as a leader, you're the… the…
00:21:03.800 --> 00:21:09.420 Peter Schein: brilliant, intuitive, contextual human, don't ignore that.
00:21:09.550 --> 00:21:16.479 Peter Schein: Go out there and figure… help other people help you figure out what's going on.
00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:24.429 Peter Schein: Then the other… Another benefit that we like to talk about is that humble inquiry is about relationship building.
00:21:24.900 --> 00:21:33.120 Peter Schein: And if you're… Relationships are all just… information exchange.
00:21:33.460 --> 00:21:40.740 Peter Schein: They're just, I'll tell you this if you'll tell me that, and everything is sort of transactionally based like that.
00:21:40.890 --> 00:21:46.699 Peter Schein: You may find that there are situations where that works perfectly well.
00:21:47.390 --> 00:22:01.429 Peter Schein: But you may also discover that you make incorrect decisions because there was more going on that your little transactional exchange, bias didn't allow for.
00:22:02.290 --> 00:22:14.690 Peter Schein: So, the other framing that I like here, that I'm hearing more and more, I'm glad that I'm hearing this more and more, is people recognizing the distinction between
00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:27.230 Peter Schein: certainty and clarity. That humble inquiry is about clarity, where you're… you're… Assuming… That more information is better.
00:22:27.460 --> 00:22:45.299 Peter Schein: Because if you're trying to understand, with some clarity, all of what's going on around you, you don't want to be blocking off certain sources of information, or certain, you know, disconfirmations. You should be wanting to assimilate as much
00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:49.519 Peter Schein: Context and content as you can.
00:22:49.630 --> 00:23:08.100 Peter Schein: The problem with certainty is that part of that move fast and break things is that I just want to quickly be able to eliminate something, and quickly be able to emphasize something else so that I can be certain that this is the right path. Well, I mean, you know, that works.
00:23:08.330 --> 00:23:12.230 Peter Schein: But, you know, then there are times when that really doesn't work.
00:23:12.460 --> 00:23:16.050 Peter Schein: And so, our emphasis is on
00:23:16.750 --> 00:23:31.199 Peter Schein: Finding ways to be more inclusive and assimilative of information, rather than getting on a particular track toward certainty, and then recognizing
00:23:31.360 --> 00:23:33.710 Peter Schein: Halfway there that you're on the wrong track.
00:23:34.190 --> 00:23:40.359 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I heard information gathering, better decision making.
00:23:40.360 --> 00:23:56.330 Mira Brancu: greater clarity in times of uncertainty, not pretending that you are certain when, in fact, it's actually more complex. It's reminding me of a client that I was actually talking with today.
00:23:56.450 --> 00:23:57.790 Mira Brancu: And,
00:23:58.120 --> 00:24:08.890 Mira Brancu: She was describing this leader who was really bullying, and the leader was just kind of, like, aiming at
00:24:09.030 --> 00:24:15.079 Mira Brancu: A certain level of certainty and clarity that wasn't available, and…
00:24:15.250 --> 00:24:19.359 Mira Brancu: Very angry that the,
00:24:19.510 --> 00:24:35.669 Mira Brancu: information wasn't immediately and readily available, when in fact it was highly nuanced and complex, but they were not interested in that. They were just sort of going at this person, and we were reflecting together about
00:24:35.910 --> 00:24:37.910 Mira Brancu: The downside of…
00:24:38.020 --> 00:24:55.340 Mira Brancu: that stance is that leader is likely never going to have the full picture and all the information that could make them even more effective, because people are too afraid to share anything because of that stance. So there's also, like, this…
00:24:55.340 --> 00:25:02.040 Mira Brancu: It's, it's, it's not just, you know, for people to be more curious, it's also
00:25:02.070 --> 00:25:09.930 Mira Brancu: That psychological safety that you described, that if you don't create that, people will not share with you what you need to be a better leader.
00:25:10.270 --> 00:25:10.970 Peter Schein: Right.
00:25:11.150 --> 00:25:19.409 Peter Schein: Right, exactly, and the… unfortunately, there may be situations where, you know, that,
00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:37.350 Peter Schein: you know, driven inquiry, or what we in the book describe as diagnostic inquiry, that might actually, or even confrontive inquiry, another contrast, that might be successful. The problem is you haven't built a platform for the next time.
00:25:38.140 --> 00:25:51.659 Peter Schein: the next tough decision you have. And so, a lot of the point of humble inquiry is… I said relationship building. I'll rephrase that as building that substrate of openness and trust.
00:25:51.800 --> 00:25:58.020 Peter Schein: So that, you know, when somebody else sees something down the road, they're gonna tell you.
00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:02.049 Peter Schein: They're gonna answer questions that you didn't even know to ask.
00:26:02.180 --> 00:26:06.740 Peter Schein: Because you built that platform of openness and trust.
00:26:06.740 --> 00:26:20.110 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah. Before we get to the relationship part, you mentioned these different kinds of inquiries, diagnostic, confrontive, can you share more about those?
00:26:20.260 --> 00:26:25.039 Mira Brancu: What are the differences, what do they look like, and when do you use one versus another?
00:26:25.040 --> 00:26:31.450 Peter Schein: Right. And, you know… A lot of this was my father's work, saying, if I'm gonna…
00:26:31.580 --> 00:26:38.440 Peter Schein: talk about, and just the backdrop being that he wrote a book called Helping, And,
00:26:38.650 --> 00:26:43.180 Peter Schein: That was… that was… a lot of that was about doctor-patient relationships.
00:26:43.410 --> 00:26:44.590 Peter Schein: But it…
00:26:44.630 --> 00:27:03.889 Peter Schein: was… what came out of that was a chapter called Humble Inquiry, and I think what he realized is, if I'm going to talk about this as this… this distinct thing, I better contrast it to other kinds of inquiry. So the contrasts are diagnostic inquiry, which is…
00:27:04.080 --> 00:27:14.320 Peter Schein: Really about, sort of, specific problem-solving questions with a sort of an endpoint in sight.
00:27:15.010 --> 00:27:22.549 Peter Schein: And, so… The… the positive side of this is that you may…
00:27:22.690 --> 00:27:36.420 Peter Schein: well with those guided questions, much in the way maybe an attorney or a doctor can use those questions, you get to that almost predetermined endpoint. So that can work.
00:27:36.930 --> 00:27:42.189 Peter Schein: But you may also be completely on the wrong track, as we were talking about before.
00:27:42.850 --> 00:27:53.289 Peter Schein: There's also confrontive inquiry, where, something's gone wrong, and somebody's to blame, and the questions are really leading in that direction.
00:27:53.710 --> 00:28:05.569 Peter Schein: Again, you've got some sort of predetermination. It doesn't have that open attitude of, I really… I'm gonna ask questions that I genuinely don't know the answer to.
00:28:06.040 --> 00:28:25.920 Peter Schein: Instead, those diagnostic and confrontive forms of inquiry are really leading to an endpoint that, you know, again, it may be, it may be the right endpoint, but, it may not. And the point about humble inquiry is that it has that…
00:28:26.070 --> 00:28:36.570 Peter Schein: contextual flexibility, or that resiliency in how you're interacting with the other person that allows something out of the box.
00:28:36.830 --> 00:28:40.360 Peter Schein: To, enter into your decision frame.
00:28:40.890 --> 00:28:47.939 Peter Schein: The other one I want to mention is what we call process inquiry.
00:28:48.080 --> 00:28:50.620 Peter Schein: where… It's…
00:28:50.980 --> 00:29:03.509 Peter Schein: It's different in that you're sort of embracing the fact you're taking a timeout, you're taking a pause, and you're saying, let's talk about what's going on right now.
00:29:03.770 --> 00:29:15.120 Peter Schein: in this process. So you're sort of taking inquirer and… and informer, and sort of saying, how are we doing together?
00:29:15.770 --> 00:29:23.380 Peter Schein: And, the point that's important about process inquiry is that it's a good way to kind of take a break.
00:29:23.560 --> 00:29:34.669 Peter Schein: It's oftentimes, you know, especially with diagnostic or confrontive inquiry, you've got a line of inquiry that you are pursuing.
00:29:34.850 --> 00:29:36.589 Peter Schein: And,
00:29:36.740 --> 00:29:43.850 Peter Schein: you know, it's hard to sort of take your eye off that ball. The point of our process inquiry is to say.
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:57.659 Peter Schein: Alright, let's stop. That's not working. How are we doing? Is… are we… are we getting anywhere? And… with these kinds of questions and this… this… this sort of line of inquiry?
00:29:59.070 --> 00:30:16.349 Peter Schein: So, those are, you know, different, you know, contrasting kinds of inquiry, and the one thing we put in the book that I think people might find interesting, and in fact, we've suggested that you might even start with
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:19.660 Peter Schein: There are little mini case studies
00:30:19.830 --> 00:30:22.519 Peter Schein: In the appendix of the book.
00:30:22.910 --> 00:30:28.999 Peter Schein: That set up situations, and then we suggest what we think…
00:30:29.650 --> 00:30:41.190 Peter Schein: The responses could be, and then we try to identify, well, that sounds to us like a diagnostic inquiry response.
00:30:41.410 --> 00:30:47.920 Peter Schein: Or set of questions. Or a… Confrontive set of questions.
00:30:48.050 --> 00:30:49.560 Peter Schein: And…
00:30:49.780 --> 00:31:05.090 Peter Schein: just starting to kind of internalize those differences. Wow, am I being overly diagnostic because I think I know the answer? Or am I being overly confrontive in my questions because I think I know who's to blame?
00:31:05.900 --> 00:31:11.969 Peter Schein: It's all aware of being sort of mindful of what kinds of questions we're asking.
00:31:11.970 --> 00:31:20.919 Mira Brancu: I was just gonna say, yeah, you know, they can all be useful, but you have to be really purposeful about why you choose one or the other, and most people are not.
00:31:20.930 --> 00:31:40.660 Mira Brancu: And most people might aim to, do more humble inquiry, but find themselves easily falling into the trap of diagnostic or quantitative, and not also insufficiently focused on process inquiry as well. And so, I did like those, those,
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:45.620 Mira Brancu: Activities at the end, because they were not easy, and it's really good practice.
00:31:45.770 --> 00:31:49.420 Peter Schein: Well, and I will, I will share that,
00:31:49.890 --> 00:31:55.509 Peter Schein: And I think my father was probably in the same boat, but with… with Jamie, my wife.
00:31:55.910 --> 00:32:05.790 Peter Schein: I'll say all the time, hey, just because I could write a book about this stuff doesn't mean I'm good at it. It's so hard, yeah, absolutely.
00:32:05.790 --> 00:32:16.699 Mira Brancu: Especially when you're in the moment, and emotions are high, and you're upset about something that happened, it's really hard, and there's only one way that you can do it better and better, and that's just a practice.
00:32:16.700 --> 00:32:17.100 Peter Schein: Yeah.
00:32:17.100 --> 00:32:31.080 Mira Brancu: So, we are reaching an ad break, so we're gonna take a few moments. You're listening to The Hard Skills with me, Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Peter Schein, and we will be right back in just a moment.
00:34:12.230 --> 00:34:23.249 Mira Brancu: Welcome, welcome back to The Hard Skills with our guest today, Peter Schein. So, let's loop back to relationships, because you do have…
00:34:23.260 --> 00:34:33.450 Mira Brancu: a framework about how to think about, different levels of relationships, and I think, when I think about that kind of, like.
00:34:33.449 --> 00:34:53.250 Mira Brancu: bully leader that I was talking with my client about, that is one kind of relationship, and we don't always realize how, like, in what stance would be ideal or optimal to move into this humble inquiry, so you have actually a great ladder for us to think about.
00:34:53.250 --> 00:34:57.029 Peter Schein: I'd love for you to share a little bit more about it. Yeah, sure.
00:34:57.160 --> 00:35:04.689 Peter Schein: You know, we were talking about being more, sort of, mindful or intentional in our inquiry.
00:35:05.810 --> 00:35:13.720 Peter Schein: Our similar idea around relationships is that we be more mindful or intentional with our relationships.
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:32.199 Peter Schein: we have a tendency to say, well, I have a good relationship with so-and-so, or I, you know, don't have a great relationship with her, or I have a super good relationship with them. It's… that's helpful, but you can be more specific.
00:35:32.310 --> 00:35:41.559 Peter Schein: in defining what kinds of relationships you have. And so, a number of our books have this, this, four-level model.
00:35:41.580 --> 00:35:52.600 Peter Schein: Of relationships, and we have a tool that we refer to as relationship mapping that's described in the book so that you can really put this model to work.
00:35:52.740 --> 00:35:55.769 Peter Schein: So let me talk you through the four levels.
00:35:56.090 --> 00:36:02.479 Peter Schein: And I will go from level minus 1 to level 3, and I'll tell you why.
00:36:02.730 --> 00:36:09.979 Peter Schein: The first level, arguably the, the least… effective level.
00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:26.539 Peter Schein: may be very efficient, but I don't think it's very effective, is level minus 1, which we refer to as domination or exploitation. This is where there's a clear power imbalance between one person and another, or one group and another group.
00:36:26.850 --> 00:36:45.159 Peter Schein: And one's dominating or exploiting the other for the purposes of either a shared goal, or maybe not a shared goal. But the point being there's a power imbalance, and the person below just does not have any power relative to the person above.
00:36:45.260 --> 00:36:50.120 Peter Schein: And that's the nature of a relationship. Now, sometimes these aren't
00:36:50.240 --> 00:37:08.600 Peter Schein: you know, necessarily, disruptive to the organization, they just may be, sort of necessary evils, or they may be temporary. I had a, general, Army general come up to me at a session that I was doing at the U.S. Air Force Academy.
00:37:08.660 --> 00:37:13.250 Peter Schein: Say that, wow, our relationships go from minus 1
00:37:13.390 --> 00:37:26.970 Peter Schein: to level 4, and I kind of laughed because, well, our model doesn't have a level 4, but he saw something in it that, in his mind, he created a level 4. He was referring to the process that
00:37:27.230 --> 00:37:44.470 Peter Schein: goes from boot camp to, you know, Army Ranger, where you have a dominating relationship between the drill sergeant and, you know, the lowest level of the organization in the Army.
00:37:44.620 --> 00:37:56.890 Peter Schein: And then it goes on to levels of, sort of, professional… what we call professional intimacy as these teams come together and become much more effective.
00:37:56.970 --> 00:38:08.720 Peter Schein: So that's level minus 1. Level 1 is… and I noticed that there isn't a level 0, because a level 0 would suggest there's no relationship at all, so we're not talking about that. We're talking about…
00:38:08.720 --> 00:38:09.060 Mira Brancu: I don'.
00:38:09.060 --> 00:38:28.089 Peter Schein: a different kind of relationship that's transactional. You've got defined roles, and you stay in your roles, you exchange information. I have described it as, like, an API, and it's a known API, and it's not flexible. You've got roles, and you just transact across those roles.
00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:43.489 Peter Schein: That can be very… it certainly is very efficient, it can be effective, but our argument in this book, in many of our books, is that that kind of transactional relationship has limited effectiveness going forward.
00:38:43.780 --> 00:39:00.649 Peter Schein: So the level 2 is a personal relationship where you, accept the fact that you're a whole person, and somebody that you're working with, or a team that you're working with, are whole people, and it will be beneficial to the group
00:39:00.650 --> 00:39:12.360 Peter Schein: To get to know more about each and every one of you, so that if there are issues that come up that have nothing to do with work, but impact your effectiveness.
00:39:12.850 --> 00:39:22.999 Peter Schein: At a certain point, you need to have a close enough relationship, an open enough relationship that you allow those things to come into the work environment.
00:39:23.240 --> 00:39:39.680 Peter Schein: We know this happens. The question is, can we embrace it and be comfortable with it? And it's not always comfortable, and it always has to be, you know, culturally sensitive, right? All of us coming from different backgrounds may have
00:39:39.700 --> 00:39:47.990 Peter Schein: Different standards of what this kind of personal connection should be at work, but we have to strive to figure that out.
00:39:48.010 --> 00:40:05.879 Peter Schein: Because that level of openness and trust that develops as we become more, personally intimate with each other, is… it's critical. It's critical to innovation, it's critical to creativity, it's critical to resiliency.
00:40:06.080 --> 00:40:15.159 Peter Schein: Then our Level 3 is intimacy, and in a way, what we're doing with Level 3 is we're creating a contrast
00:40:15.180 --> 00:40:27.919 Peter Schein: to what you would consider a productive personal relationship at work, and an intimate personal relationship outside of work. Often, we would think of this as a romantic relationship.
00:40:28.020 --> 00:40:40.519 Peter Schein: What's come up as we've discussed this over the years, is that oftentimes very effective teams will say, well, we're like a level 2.5. We really do…
00:40:40.650 --> 00:40:44.230 Peter Schein: Know each other well enough to finish each other's sentences.
00:40:44.470 --> 00:40:51.919 Peter Schein: But we're not crossing the line. We're not, sort of awkwardly intimate with each other.
00:40:52.190 --> 00:41:07.580 Peter Schein: Of course, we always get into a bright line around, you know, romantic relationship or nepotistic relationships that, shouldn't really be in the workplace, generally speaking.
00:41:07.700 --> 00:41:24.720 Peter Schein: Though I did… I, for one, and many other people I know, did meet my wife at work, so… It's something we all sort of figure out. But we, we wanted to create this four-level model so that we can be…
00:41:24.720 --> 00:41:36.350 Peter Schein: intentional and kind of deterministic as we think about what relationships we need in certain contexts at work. And generally speaking, our view would be
00:41:36.380 --> 00:41:47.530 Peter Schein: You… improve effectiveness. You increase effectiveness by taking transactional relationships and making them more personal.
00:41:47.970 --> 00:41:51.100 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and I'll, kind of add,
00:41:52.810 --> 00:42:02.960 Mira Brancu: when, you know, and this is especially for people who, might do team development work, right? Team coaches, consultants, all of that.
00:42:03.100 --> 00:42:14.709 Mira Brancu: I like to think about how this applies to certain team models, like Lencioni's Five Behaviors. So when you think about Lencioni's Five Behaviors.
00:42:15.060 --> 00:42:29.880 Mira Brancu: Obviously, you have what's at the bottom, trust. You have to have vulnerability and trusting relationships in order to engage in productive conflict. Where it becomes really interesting in terms of how your model fits really well and how I've…
00:42:30.330 --> 00:42:43.270 Mira Brancu: helped explain this to other teams, is when you get to accountability, which is before you get to results, you cannot reach the highest level of shared results and goals without accountability.
00:42:43.580 --> 00:42:58.620 Mira Brancu: If you have level one accountability, it means all you have is your leader telling everybody, do this, do that, you're not doing this, you're not doing that. It's highly transactional. It doesn't feel good to the leader to have to do that, to call people out.
00:42:58.700 --> 00:43:15.859 Mira Brancu: What you really want is Level 2 accountability, which is helping relationships, and if you could translate the word accountability to, we're helping each other be better, do better, in order to together push each other to the highest levels, all of a sudden it feels better to people to
00:43:16.040 --> 00:43:35.860 Mira Brancu: say, hey, I feel like I'm the bottleneck here, and I need help. Or, either asking for help or receiving help. Hey, I've noticed that, it, you know, things are getting stuck here with you. Is there something I could offer to help? That's a level 2 relationship, it's a helping relationship, right?
00:43:35.910 --> 00:43:38.830 Peter Schein: Right. That's another way to just think about, like.
00:43:38.870 --> 00:43:47.020 Mira Brancu: you can apply it to all kinds of challenging, hard questions and discussion. So, when we come back from
00:43:47.170 --> 00:43:53.919 Mira Brancu: the next break, I'd love to hear more about this feedback giving and receiving, and how you
00:43:53.920 --> 00:44:08.310 Mira Brancu: You, you, had a really interesting way of talking about it in the book, and when it's useful, when it's not useful, and how we think about humble inquiry and the feedback giving and receiving.
00:44:08.560 --> 00:44:16.729 Mira Brancu: So, we are listening… you're listening to the Heart Skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Dr. Peter Schein, and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:44:17.150 --> 00:44:17.700 Peter Schein: Thanks.
00:45:47.360 --> 00:46:04.599 Mira Brancu: Welcome, welcome back to the Hard Skills. Okay, Peter, I can't believe this has gone by so fast. Let's see, what we can squeeze in of all of the questions that I, have for you. One of the things that… where we left off is,
00:46:04.600 --> 00:46:13.849 Mira Brancu: if I'm trying to be, helpful, have a humble inquiry stance, trying to reach those higher levels of results.
00:46:13.890 --> 00:46:18.999 Mira Brancu: Trying to stay in that Level 2 relationship, while I'm doing that.
00:46:19.050 --> 00:46:23.180 Mira Brancu: What are some pitfalls and some ways to think about
00:46:23.260 --> 00:46:33.810 Mira Brancu: giving and receiving feedback, whether it's performance feedback or, like, accountability feedback, peer-to-peer, I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.
00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:41.430 Peter Schein: Yeah, I mean, one thing I think we need to touch on is, is the whole notion of advice.
00:46:41.550 --> 00:46:44.469 Peter Schein: You, you brought it up earlier, but…
00:46:44.770 --> 00:46:54.179 Peter Schein: because I think the… our feelings about advice actually are very applicable to this… the notion of feedback as well. That,
00:46:55.050 --> 00:46:56.290 Peter Schein: your…
00:46:57.170 --> 00:47:05.009 Peter Schein: If somebody asks you for advice, what they're telling you is that there's something going on that, that,
00:47:05.430 --> 00:47:09.420 Peter Schein: is, is… Causing them to reach out for help.
00:47:10.720 --> 00:47:14.910 Peter Schein: The advice that is being asked for
00:47:15.070 --> 00:47:25.419 Peter Schein: you know, my experience has been, and I think I shared this with my father, that so often, somebody has a concern or needs help with something.
00:47:25.420 --> 00:47:36.509 Peter Schein: And the question for advice, or the, you know, the framing of what advice is needed, is often kind of a safe space.
00:47:36.920 --> 00:47:47.409 Peter Schein: So the person says, well, I need advice about this, when in fact, what's going on is related, but not the same.
00:47:47.470 --> 00:47:57.989 Peter Schein: Or much more, you know, existential than just that thing that's being asked for, that narrow advice that's being asked for.
00:47:58.100 --> 00:48:07.240 Peter Schein: But it's safer for that person, or it's more comfortable, to ask for that specific advice, even though what's going on is something much deeper.
00:48:07.240 --> 00:48:07.700 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:48:07.700 --> 00:48:12.760 Peter Schein: And our… our… the point about humble inquiry in this context is that
00:48:13.050 --> 00:48:16.240 Peter Schein: Generally speaking, and, and, you, you…
00:48:16.330 --> 00:48:32.289 Peter Schein: probably know from reading this book that we know Michael Bungay Stanier pretty well, and his book, The Advice Trap, is a much richer resource on this idea. But the general point is that when somebody asks you for advice.
00:48:32.360 --> 00:48:37.249 Peter Schein: You really need to know a lot more about what's going on.
00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:39.100 Peter Schein: Before your advice.
00:48:39.410 --> 00:48:46.989 Peter Schein: I mean, your advice might be useful, but the chances are you're gonna miss something. Something else is going on.
00:48:47.050 --> 00:49:03.340 Peter Schein: And so, humble inquiry is about finding out what's really going on, rather than just plowing in with your expert opinion or your, previous experience that would feed into
00:49:03.340 --> 00:49:15.489 Peter Schein: advice that, again, you might hit it, but the chances are it's a swing and a miss, or they've already tried that, or… and what that does is that undermines your credibility.
00:49:15.820 --> 00:49:23.269 Peter Schein: And I would argue the same thing is true with feedback, you know, the difficult conversations.
00:49:23.380 --> 00:49:33.049 Peter Schein: Because oftentimes, if your feedback is, well, you know, you're fine in meetings, but you're pretty bad at spreadsheets.
00:49:33.270 --> 00:49:39.010 Peter Schein: Don't you want to know why? Don't you want to understand at a deeper level, well, what's going on?
00:49:39.260 --> 00:49:50.820 Peter Schein: how can we together figure this out, rather than just sort of, asking some… confrontive or diagnostic questions.
00:49:50.970 --> 00:50:01.000 Peter Schein: And then sort of plowing into the feedback. There is more going on, you know, and maybe, maybe the issue is it's not performance, it's fit.
00:50:01.240 --> 00:50:08.769 Peter Schein: But how are you gonna get to that if you're too focused on the content, As, as sort of…
00:50:09.850 --> 00:50:13.940 Peter Schein: You know, characterized by the metrics that you're following to give that feedback.
00:50:14.200 --> 00:50:17.809 Peter Schein: Or the content that you've observed.
00:50:17.870 --> 00:50:35.279 Peter Schein: Rather than sort of knowing what's behind it. And so the humble inquiry questions, the curiosity, the, the interest in the other person enough to not just tell them what they're doing wrong, but trying to figure out what's really going on.
00:50:35.620 --> 00:50:52.729 Peter Schein: we tell a story in the book about a, captain of a, of a aircraft carrier. 5,000 people, organization, just, you know, right, right there on that aircraft carrier. So this is a very senior medical, or,
00:50:53.060 --> 00:50:57.090 Peter Schein: Naval officer, you know, he's an admiral, but…
00:50:57.200 --> 00:51:13.980 Peter Schein: He's the commander in charge of a big ship. And something happens on the deck, which is basically sort of the lowest rung of the organization, and rather than just letting the hierarchy take care of an error, which it can do.
00:51:14.420 --> 00:51:15.590 Peter Schein: This…
00:51:15.730 --> 00:51:26.429 Peter Schein: admiral, this captain of the ship, wanted to know what actually was going on. So he invited this lowest rung of the organization.
00:51:26.610 --> 00:51:30.879 Peter Schein: Up to the bridge to have a conversation with him.
00:51:31.260 --> 00:51:45.840 Peter Schein: And the point being, the feedback could have been given, right? The error was made, the feedback could have been given, the hierarchy can be very efficient at, sort of.
00:51:45.990 --> 00:51:52.069 Peter Schein: Resolving the issue and doling out the punishment, if that was the case.
00:51:52.190 --> 00:52:02.540 Peter Schein: But in this case, the Admiral decided that it's far more better to figure out, for building an effective organization, to figure out what else was going on.
00:52:02.920 --> 00:52:14.659 Peter Schein: Rather than just plowing in with the feedback, he said, I'll… I have more to gain for the organization by a few minutes to just figure out what else was happening at the time.
00:52:15.430 --> 00:52:19.839 Peter Schein: So, I hope that's what you were getting at, Mira, that…
00:52:20.580 --> 00:52:27.150 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and I think, you know, a couple of reflections I had… are,
00:52:27.850 --> 00:52:32.779 Mira Brancu: you know, just think about… so first, one of the things that you mentioned, I think, is
00:52:33.020 --> 00:52:39.159 Mira Brancu: that I'm pulling out of this is, be careful not to focus on you.
00:52:39.310 --> 00:52:41.380 Mira Brancu: When somebody asks for your feedback.
00:52:41.560 --> 00:52:51.339 Mira Brancu: Right? They're asking about them, and it's so easy, depending on who you are and your personality, to fall into a trap of, like.
00:52:52.000 --> 00:53:09.320 Mira Brancu: this feels so good, they want to know my expertise, and they think that I know something, or, if, you know, I'm a rescuer type, or I'm a savior type, and I'm the hero, and I'm gonna be the hero of this person's life, because I'm gonna give them the best feedback ever, or whatever, but, like.
00:53:09.320 --> 00:53:12.179 Mira Brancu: If you put yourself in
00:53:12.380 --> 00:53:15.039 Mira Brancu: The shoes of, you know,
00:53:15.240 --> 00:53:17.599 Mira Brancu: A time when you ask for feedback.
00:53:17.790 --> 00:53:34.179 Mira Brancu: and someone gave you feedback based on their experiences instead of your experiences. It was very disappointing, probably. And you left, like you said, losing faith in that person's ability to help you, instead of gaining faith in their ability to help you.
00:53:34.510 --> 00:53:41.419 Mira Brancu: So, that's a lot of, like, what I'm pulling from you about how to think about the attitude and the art part of
00:53:41.550 --> 00:53:50.269 Mira Brancu: humble inquiry is to… to constantly be mindful of where is my focus going? Is it on me?
00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:52.659 Mira Brancu: Or is it on the other person in the group?
00:53:53.330 --> 00:53:56.740 Mira Brancu: so that I could be more effective, and we could be more effective.
00:53:57.020 --> 00:53:58.859 Peter Schein: Right. Right. Yep.
00:53:59.040 --> 00:54:11.510 Peter Schein: Yeah, is that feedback, ultimately, even though the… are the… are they… are you feeding… giving them feedback by telling them something, or are you giving them feedback by…
00:54:11.880 --> 00:54:13.230 Peter Schein: Inquiring.
00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:15.360 Peter Schein: About what's going on.
00:54:15.620 --> 00:54:16.240 Mira Brancu: Exactly.
00:54:16.240 --> 00:54:20.170 Peter Schein: And so often, the telling ends up…
00:54:20.460 --> 00:54:25.509 Peter Schein: You know, my father had a post-it on his desk that said,
00:54:26.060 --> 00:54:30.530 Peter Schein: Telling turns me cold. Asking warms me up.
00:54:31.380 --> 00:54:38.100 Peter Schein: just that framing, I think, is actually very helpful, that if you're spending too much time telling.
00:54:38.240 --> 00:54:41.319 Peter Schein: People, whether it's advice or feedback.
00:54:41.490 --> 00:54:51.410 Peter Schein: Some of it might land, but a lot of it just may just sort of go, you know, that doesn't apply to me, and it leaves you feeling cold.
00:54:51.770 --> 00:54:52.960 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah.
00:54:52.960 --> 00:55:01.529 Peter Schein: A number of questions that help you clarify what's going on for you, whether it's, again, whether it's advice or feedback.
00:55:01.940 --> 00:55:07.470 Peter Schein: Helps that, that, that questioning helps kind of warm you up.
00:55:08.540 --> 00:55:17.170 Peter Schein: As you, but also collectively. The two of you, so you're, you're, you're, you know, you're workshopping something together.
00:55:17.290 --> 00:55:24.159 Peter Schein: It's not… You know, being told something, and then deciding whether or not to accept it.
00:55:24.350 --> 00:55:31.200 Mira Brancu: Exactly, exactly, yeah. One quick practical, you know, tip
00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:38.569 Mira Brancu: I have learned to train myself when somebody asks for my feedback or input. The first…
00:55:38.710 --> 00:55:43.709 Mira Brancu: Or among the questions that I ask, you came to me…
00:55:43.930 --> 00:55:57.150 Mira Brancu: I'm sure you're asking other people as well. What were you hoping I could offer that might be different or unique than anybody else you're asking? So that I could, like, better tailor what they're actually looking for that happens to be, like, from me.
00:55:57.660 --> 00:55:58.390 Peter Schein: Yeah.
00:55:58.390 --> 00:56:07.380 Mira Brancu: This is amazing. If people want to find out more about how to work with you and your work.
00:56:07.510 --> 00:56:14.430 Mira Brancu: I'm showing it on the screen right now for those who are going to be watching later or right now, but where can they find you if they're listening?
00:56:15.140 --> 00:56:25.200 Peter Schein: Well, you see that OCLI.org? Direct email to me is peter at ocli.org. That's, that's the most direct way.
00:56:25.660 --> 00:56:26.800 Mira Brancu: Excellent.
00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:31.110 Peter Schein: Yeah, send me questions or thoughts, and I'd love to hear from you.
00:56:31.430 --> 00:56:43.520 Mira Brancu: Excellent, excellent. And do get any of his books, including the newest one, the third edition, Humble Inquiry. It is really, really, really, really good. So… Thank you.
00:56:43.650 --> 00:56:50.209 Mira Brancu: Everybody, what did you take away? I know what I took away. More importantly, what is one small change you
00:56:50.330 --> 00:56:54.690 Mira Brancu: can implement this week based on what you learned from Peter.
00:56:54.870 --> 00:57:11.769 Mira Brancu: share it with us on LinkedIn. We are both on LinkedIn, and we'd love to cheer you on and hear more about it. You can also share on talkradio.nyc on LinkedIn. The Hard Skills is also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Twitch, Apple, Spotify, Amazon, lots of other places that
00:57:11.780 --> 00:57:19.600 Mira Brancu: So you can find it anywhere you listen to your podcast. If today's episode resonated with you, share it with a colleague.
00:57:19.940 --> 00:57:21.880 Mira Brancu: And leave a review.
00:57:22.200 --> 00:57:41.960 Mira Brancu: And thank you to TalkRadio.nyc for hosting. Together, we will navigate the complexities of leadership and emerge stronger on the other side. Thank you for joining me and Peter Schein today on this journey. I know that I was grateful to be able to talk with him, and I know that you probably learned a lot
00:57:42.040 --> 00:57:46.799 Mira Brancu: This is Dr. Mira Brancou signing off. Until next time, stay steady.
00:57:46.910 --> 00:57:52.169 Mira Brancu: Stay present, and keep building those hard skills muscles muscles.
00:57:52.630 --> 00:57:54.050 Mira Brancu: Take care, everybody.
00:57:54.240 --> 00:57:55.360 Peter Schein: Thank you very much, Mira.
Talking Alternative Broadcasting
392 Central Park West Suite 17R - New York, NY 10025
Privacy Policy · Terms & Conditions
Thank You for Visiting TALKRADIO.NYC © 2022.
