EPISODE SUMMARY:
The Transformative Bond Between Generations
Listeners will learn about the multiple health and wellness benefits of cultivating and sustaining intergenerational bonds in their lives. They will learn unique ways to connect with people from different generations as they consider the legacy they hope to leave. They will consider the eternality of love, and explore the lifelong influence of intergenerational relationships.
Dr. Dale Atkins, author of The Turquoise Butterfly, is a well-respected psychologist, author of 8 books, and a frequent guest expert in the national media. She has specific expertise in families, caregiving, aging well, kindness, and resilient adaptation to life’s changes. We will discuss the myriad emotional, mental, spiritual, and physical benefits of creating and maintaining intergenerational bonds, whether between children and their grandparents, or their aunts, uncles, or family friends. No matter what our age, these bonds have the power to transform us in unexpected ways. Dr. Atkins will draw from her book, her research, as well as her professional and personal experience to offer pragmatic suggestions for creating lasting connections between generations.
Website: www.drdaleatkins.com/
Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/drdaleatkins/
Instagram: www.instagram.com/drdaleatkins/?hl=en
YouTube: www.youtube.com/channel/UC0CM_yRL19VMfUsngDBLpsA
Frank opens this episode of Frank About Health with developmental psychologist Dr. Dale Atkins, spotlighting her new book The Turquoise Butterfly and its relevance to intergenerational relationships, trauma, and family dynamics in times of disruption. Dr. Atkins shares her decades-long career in child development, special education, and family psychology, emphasizing how transitions, caregiving, and loss shape both children and adults—and how kindness, adaptation, and compassion remain essential tools for healthcare providers and families alike. Their discussion sets the stage for a deeper exploration of how grandparents, parents, and children influence one another’s emotional well-being, offering insights especially valuable for healthcare advocates, clinicians, and anyone supporting families through change.
In this segment of Frank About Health, Dr. Dale Atkins brings The Turquoise Butterfly to life as a therapeutic story that uses the bond between a grandmother and granddaughter to model how children can face anxiety, fear, and change with calm support and simple, grounding mantras. She highlights how intergenerational relationships teach safety, love, adaptability, and dignity—especially as caregiving roles subtly shift with aging, illness, and loss—offering powerful parallels for how providers and families can respond to vulnerability without stripping a person of their humanity. For healthcare enthusiasts, advocates, and practitioners, the book becomes both a gentle clinical tool and a conversation starter for helping children process impending loss, grief, and family transitions, while preserving connection, legacy, and emotional resilience across generations.
In this segment of Frank About Health, Dr. Dale Atkins explains how the turquoise butterfly symbolizes an ongoing connection with a deceased grandparent, using it to illustrate how children – and adults – can continue to feel the presence, love, and lessons of those they've lost. She speaks directly to the realities of modern family disruption and estrangement, offering practical legacy tools like storytelling, recordings, and intentional rituals to maintain intergenerational bonds, even when physical contact is limited or family systems are fractured. For healthcare enthusiasts, advocates, and providers, her insights underscore the clinical importance of preserving connection, meaning, and engagement for older adults and children alike, highlighting intergenerational relationships (biological or chosen) as powerful buffers against loneliness, grief, and the emotional challenges of aging.
In this closing segment of Frank About Health, Frank and Dr. Dale Atkins tie The Turquoise Butterfly into a wider conversation about family dysfunction, generational patterns, and how intergenerational relationships can either fracture or foster emotional growth and self-actualization. Dr. Atkins emphasizes that while today’s social and familial chaos may be beyond our control, healthcare advocates, caregivers, and families can choose how they respond—by adapting with “good enough” relationships, setting boundaries with love, and centering safety, respect, and open-hearted communication. She urges listeners to ground themselves through self-care, nature, and community, so they can show up with kindness and humanity in their families, practices, and advocacy work, truly becoming “disruptors” who help repair and strengthen connections across generations.
00:00:34.300 --> 00:00:53.999 Frank R. Harrison: Hey everybody, and welcome to a new episode of Frank About Health with my special guest today, Dr. Dale Atkins, who is a child developmental psychologist, and who has a very interesting book that we are going to feature today during the show, especially since this is part of my Voices of Disruption series.
00:00:54.000 --> 00:01:05.430 Frank R. Harrison: If you're watching the show, the date is November 13th, 2025, so therefore, we are going ahead and accepting questions and answers only by email on this show.
00:01:05.430 --> 00:01:17.490 Frank R. Harrison: Usually, I accept them live, but due to the sensitive nature of the topics that we will be discussing, including featuring The Turquoise Butterfly, the book written by Dale Atkins.
00:01:17.490 --> 00:01:25.869 Frank R. Harrison: It is targeted to all the viewers out there that are very much interested in understanding how generational
00:01:25.940 --> 00:01:37.559 Frank R. Harrison: Whether you call it trauma, or relations, or even just generational experience is important between the generations as we go through constant change and disruption.
00:01:37.610 --> 00:01:56.450 Frank R. Harrison: And that's why I will issue a disclaimer, which is, is these are the thoughts and views of Dale Atkins and of our conversation today, but they are not the views of TalkRadio.nyc or of the show Frank About Health. Yet, if you are interested in knowing deeply how your relationship
00:01:56.450 --> 00:02:07.060 Frank R. Harrison: With your grandparent, or your grandchild, depending on who you are, has a very important impact in our lives going forward, this is the show for you.
00:02:07.100 --> 00:02:26.190 Frank R. Harrison: That being said, Dale, when you unmute, I want you to feel free to give me your entire background. I like to introduce people with their academic and research experience and so forth and so on, but because of the sensitive nature of this book, which I really want to focus on today, I'll let you go into your biography with our audience.
00:02:26.550 --> 00:02:27.660 Dale Atkins (her/she): Well, thank you.
00:02:27.660 --> 00:02:28.880 Frank R. Harrison: They're frank about health.
00:02:28.880 --> 00:02:41.109 Dale Atkins (her/she): Thank you, Frank. It's really an honor to be with you, and I appreciate being in your group of disruptors. I feel very, very strongly that change is happening all around us.
00:02:41.220 --> 00:02:57.470 Dale Atkins (her/she): And when I give you my biography, you'll see that it was also a change that led to another change that led to another change, which has led to all of the books that I've written, and this first children's book. I… I studied
00:02:57.470 --> 00:03:07.850 Dale Atkins (her/she): at NYU for my bachelor's, I studied at Teachers College in what was then called Special Education, for my master's, and I studied
00:03:07.950 --> 00:03:20.909 Dale Atkins (her/she): at UCLA for my doctorate in early childhood and developmental studies, and I have a license to practice psychology in New York, which I've been doing for about 45 years.
00:03:20.910 --> 00:03:28.940 Dale Atkins (her/she): And I work a lot with families, with individuals. I've done a lot of work
00:03:28.950 --> 00:03:35.260 Dale Atkins (her/she): globally, because I really think that being able to provide
00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:44.569 Dale Atkins (her/she): Our families with support in every way that we can, working with communities, working within communities, whether that's a neighborhood.
00:03:44.730 --> 00:03:49.570 Dale Atkins (her/she): Whether it's a school community, a religious community.
00:03:49.960 --> 00:04:09.719 Dale Atkins (her/she): that we… we really need support. And I've written 8 books. Each has been a record, I would say, of something that I was going through with my… within my own life, and then wanted to share in some way, because it reflected
00:04:09.720 --> 00:04:23.720 Dale Atkins (her/she): on the society at the time. So I've written books about getting along better with your aging parents before you're in position to take care of them. I've written about sibling relationships. I've written books about marriage.
00:04:24.060 --> 00:04:28.869 Dale Atkins (her/she): About pre-marriage, about weddings, written books about.
00:04:28.990 --> 00:04:45.760 Dale Atkins (her/she): balance in your life, and about raising children with special needs. So, it's been a reflection of what I've been interested in, what I've studied, what I've worked with when I work with families and or individuals.
00:04:45.890 --> 00:04:54.490 Dale Atkins (her/she): And as my career progressed, I started working with individuals and families around issues having to do with transitions.
00:04:54.650 --> 00:04:57.950 Dale Atkins (her/she): And transitions are often filled with stress.
00:04:58.070 --> 00:05:01.450 Frank R. Harrison: You mentioned intergenerational trauma.
00:05:01.450 --> 00:05:09.079 Dale Atkins (her/she): People have trauma that they revisit as adults from childhood, and people are also dealing with loss.
00:05:09.180 --> 00:05:16.879 Dale Atkins (her/she): Anticipatory loss, and that could be a person, it could be a job, it could be a house, it could be a sense of security.
00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:22.770 Dale Atkins (her/she): So, my work reflects a lot of what's going on in the world.
00:05:23.100 --> 00:05:36.519 Dale Atkins (her/she): And I came to write The Turquoise Butterfly because I became a grandmother myself, I have 6 grandchildren, and I had an incredible mother whose name was Sylvia.
00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:38.890 Dale Atkins (her/she): And I wanted to honor her.
00:05:39.460 --> 00:05:49.319 Dale Atkins (her/she): And I know we'll talk about that a bit later, and we'll get into the book, but it was very much a part of my own development and my own mourning.
00:05:49.480 --> 00:06:05.039 Dale Atkins (her/she): and wanting to honor her, as I said, because she was an outstanding grandmother and great-grandmother. And I really wanted to talk about and present to families
00:06:05.200 --> 00:06:12.000 Dale Atkins (her/she): Yeah. The different ways that grandparents and intergenerational relationships, not just
00:06:12.030 --> 00:06:25.729 Dale Atkins (her/she): grandparent to grandchild, but aunt to uncle, and wonderful neighbor who's a friend as a family. These relationships are so incredibly beneficial to
00:06:25.730 --> 00:06:45.029 Dale Atkins (her/she): the children, as well as to the adults. And I hope we'll have a chance to talk about how they're beneficial, and how they continue to ground us, particularly in a world that is going through some very, very serious and challenging times for families.
00:06:45.190 --> 00:06:55.020 Frank R. Harrison: Absolutely, absolutely. And I can relate on many levels, as we had during our first interview together, behind the scenes, but I do want to focus
00:06:55.030 --> 00:07:09.939 Frank R. Harrison: on the premise of your book in Section 2 of this episode of Frank About Health, and then I think after the midway through, we'll have a chance to really flesh out all of the different dynamics that occur between generations, whether they are
00:07:10.110 --> 00:07:29.110 Frank R. Harrison: grand-parental, or parent to child, or siblings, or other kinds of dynamics that we always know about. Now let me ask you, out of my own curiosity, I have a degree in neuropsychology from NYU. I was interested to know why, developmental psychology became your interest, or your, or your passion.
00:07:29.640 --> 00:07:39.409 Dale Atkins (her/she): I was working with a group of families and children and other professionals in the field of special education, and my… my specialization…
00:07:39.570 --> 00:07:42.750 Dale Atkins (her/she): was, children who had hearing impairments.
00:07:43.130 --> 00:07:44.280 Dale Atkins (her/she): and deafness.
00:07:44.540 --> 00:07:47.519 Dale Atkins (her/she): And issues having to do with hearing.
00:07:47.580 --> 00:08:03.920 Dale Atkins (her/she): And I was working within this population, and I saw so many behaviors, not only within the children, but also parenting expectations, and grandparent expectations, and interactions with siblings.
00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:22.230 Dale Atkins (her/she): that I thought were quite normal in the range of normal development, but yet I felt that they were constantly being attributed to the fact that this child was, in some way, different slash special, just unique. And so a lot of what I thought was normal behavior
00:08:22.230 --> 00:08:23.990 Dale Atkins (her/she): Within the normal range.
00:08:23.990 --> 00:08:42.380 Dale Atkins (her/she): was, as I said, being attributed to the fact that this child was different, and it didn't make any sense to me. So I figured that I wanted to learn more about the whole range of what we then called normal behavior and normal development, and just child development in… in total.
00:08:42.380 --> 00:09:00.450 Dale Atkins (her/she): And so that's why I wanted to study in that area. And then that actually led me to more work within the family, the whole family. And the first book that I wrote was called Sisters, and it was really about sibling relationships. It started off as
00:09:00.450 --> 00:09:13.859 Dale Atkins (her/she): what is unique about the sibling relationships in families where there is a child who is in some way different, or not the expected child, that was awaited for? And…
00:09:13.860 --> 00:09:14.590 Frank R. Harrison: thing.
00:09:14.590 --> 00:09:23.880 Dale Atkins (her/she): And so that's really how I got into this, and then I wanted to study clinical psychology, and so my background kind of
00:09:24.410 --> 00:09:43.629 Dale Atkins (her/she): channeled me into the world of psychology from education. And I like combining the two, because I love to teach, and I love to do seminars, and I find that working with families, is really very helpful. And I'll add that, because my dad had Alzheimer's disease.
00:09:43.630 --> 00:09:55.459 Dale Atkins (her/she): many, many, many years ago. He's been gone for 30 years. It was at that juncture that I then really wanted to study more about family dynamics when one is
00:09:55.460 --> 00:10:13.749 Dale Atkins (her/she): in the caregiving role in a context where, in those days, very little was known about Alzheimer's, and there was very little support. So, how families, how individuals cobble together what it is they need to do, and how dealing with that and
00:10:13.800 --> 00:10:23.750 Dale Atkins (her/she): managing the stress, and managing social situations that may have been supportive, but may be falling by the wayside, all of that
00:10:23.750 --> 00:10:35.310 Dale Atkins (her/she): kind of informed how I wanted to write this book, because it is about, we'll talk about it later, but it is about an intergenerational relationship that changes.
00:10:35.990 --> 00:10:43.710 Frank R. Harrison: You know, it's amazing. I'm listening to everything you've just said. It mirrors a lot of how I launched Frank About Health.
00:10:43.780 --> 00:10:49.960 Frank R. Harrison: Being an epileptic individual, going through caregiving with my family, and my cousin, who also…
00:10:49.960 --> 00:11:06.670 Frank R. Harrison: is in a nursing home with Alzheimer's disease, having to deal with the stress, understanding the family dynamics are constantly broken for various reasons. It could be education, it could be just… it could be narcissism, it could be a lack of understanding, it could be whatever's going on in the environment.
00:11:06.670 --> 00:11:14.760 Frank R. Harrison: And this show allowed me to come and focus everything by talking to individuals such as yourself.
00:11:14.760 --> 00:11:32.469 Frank R. Harrison: that reflect on either how I handled it, or what I did wrong, or what I could do to improve. Now, what you've just said also brought the… it answered my question as to why you focus on developmental psychology, but I could see you're the type of individual that when you see an individual with a difference.
00:11:32.670 --> 00:11:35.390 Frank R. Harrison: In this case, the child that was deaf.
00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:41.539 Frank R. Harrison: You try to figure a way to adjust what is considered normal to much more acceptable
00:11:41.700 --> 00:11:43.770 Frank R. Harrison: To the child, in this case.
00:11:44.210 --> 00:11:47.399 Frank R. Harrison: And that whole ability to shift.
00:11:47.510 --> 00:11:49.829 Frank R. Harrison: Is the talent that you hold within you.
00:11:50.290 --> 00:11:58.210 Dale Atkins (her/she): Well, I appreciate your saying that. I think our goal is to try to… Adapt.
00:11:58.570 --> 00:11:59.010 Frank R. Harrison: Yes. So whatever.
00:11:59.010 --> 00:12:18.890 Dale Atkins (her/she): situation we're in without degrading either the situation or the person involved, and really never losing sight of the humanity, of the way we interact with a person and their humanity. Because even if someone is less capable in some ways.
00:12:19.010 --> 00:12:25.959 Dale Atkins (her/she): They are still deserving of respect, and care, and love, and kindness.
00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:30.540 Frank R. Harrison: And, you know, my previous book that I wrote a few years ago with my niece.
00:12:30.540 --> 00:12:35.880 Dale Atkins (her/she): was called the Kindness Advantage, and one of the things that I think we must
00:12:35.990 --> 00:12:52.230 Dale Atkins (her/she): be conscious of in the way we deal with anybody, family members or not, political adversaries or not, anybody, is not to forget that we lead with kindness, and sometimes it's very hard.
00:12:52.520 --> 00:12:53.130 Frank R. Harrison: Very hard to hear.
00:12:53.130 --> 00:13:04.179 Dale Atkins (her/she): I think that that's more of a guiding light for me as I work with families, because it's so easy to blame something or someone
00:13:04.330 --> 00:13:13.020 Dale Atkins (her/she): and… It's not as easy to try to adapt to a situation that is really very challenging.
00:13:13.140 --> 00:13:26.869 Dale Atkins (her/she): but to preserve our own integrity, and to foster the humanity between us and that other person. Yes. And that's something that I think we all can strive for, but we need support to do that.
00:13:27.500 --> 00:13:39.870 Frank R. Harrison: Now, we're about to take our first break, but I think when we come back and we start talking about the turquoise butterfly, that is going to serve as, I would call it, the prototype for how generational education
00:13:40.010 --> 00:13:48.420 Frank R. Harrison: Through the child and the grandchild can help foster that kindness and that way of being able to adapt.
00:13:48.580 --> 00:13:53.750 Frank R. Harrison: Thanks so much, for everything you've just said. I'm really looking forward to
00:13:53.750 --> 00:14:14.870 Frank R. Harrison: continue our discussion on the turquoise butterfly, but everyone, please stay tuned right here on talkradio.nyc, and on our social media platforms, LinkedIn, Facebook, YouTube, and Twitch. And again, if you have any questions during this show, you can email me, frankrharrison1 at gmail.com, or Dale Atkins at…
00:14:15.220 --> 00:14:29.349 Dale Atkins (her/she): Drdaleatkins.com, and it's D-R-D-A-L-E-A-T-K-I-N-S dot com. But I must say that I will have to put my email on, because I didn't have it on for our conversation.
00:14:29.740 --> 00:14:36.899 Frank R. Harrison: Oh, no, that's okay, it's like you'll probably get the questions, remember, on the 13th of November, that's when the questions will be.
00:14:36.900 --> 00:14:38.130 Dale Atkins (her/she): Right, right.
00:14:38.130 --> 00:14:41.029 Frank R. Harrison: Alright, everybody, please stay tuned, we'll be back in a few.
00:16:24.390 --> 00:16:31.780 Frank R. Harrison: Hey everybody, and welcome back. As promised, we are now going to hear a lot from Dr. Dale Atkins and her book.
00:16:31.930 --> 00:16:32.880 Frank R. Harrison: the…
00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:45.219 Frank R. Harrison: Turquoise Butterfly. There is a caption right in front of me that I'm going to read to everyone, and of course, we're going to hear about the book in detail with some quotes from Dr. Dale. Is that okay I call you Dr. Dale?
00:16:46.950 --> 00:17:01.660 Frank R. Harrison: Okay, but at the same time, be aware that this extraordinary story is a celebration of eternal love and transformation, beautifully illustrating the profound bond between a grandmother and her granddaughter.
00:17:01.660 --> 00:17:07.930 Frank R. Harrison: Change can be embraced with courage and resilience, and the transformative power of love can bridge any gap.
00:17:07.930 --> 00:17:24.780 Frank R. Harrison: The Turquoise Butterfly explores our unique strengths and vulnerabilities in this heartwarming, multi-generational tale. It is available for pre-order right now on Amazon.com and Barnesandnoble.com, but as the segment ends, we will know where you can get this as soon as possible.
00:17:24.859 --> 00:17:33.150 Frank R. Harrison: Dale, welcome back, and I can't wait to hear all about the story in detail, and how it relates to a lot of the practice that you have done over your career.
00:17:33.810 --> 00:17:47.529 Dale Atkins (her/she): Thank you, Frank. It's really a joy to be with you and to talk with you and your listeners about the book. It is… it is really a tribute and an inspiration. It's a tribute to my mom, and it was inspired by her.
00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:49.190 Frank R. Harrison: And I…
00:17:49.190 --> 00:17:54.180 Dale Atkins (her/she): I know that you would like me to tell the story a little bit, so I'll tell you just a little bit about this
00:17:54.180 --> 00:18:14.679 Dale Atkins (her/she): little girl, whose name is Victoria, and she is adventurous, however, she is hesitant, and she feels some anxiety whenever she goes into a new situation, and she has butterflies in her belly, and sometimes that prevents her from doing things. But her grandmother, with whom she spends a week a summer.
00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:24.109 Dale Atkins (her/she): Every summer, alone with her grandmother, is really an adventurer, and she presents as a butterfly, and she's fluttering around, she's doing interesting things.
00:18:24.210 --> 00:18:39.449 Dale Atkins (her/she): And so when they're together, she, Victoria, starts to feel a little bit more bold, and her grandmother encourages her, but gently, with patience, with understanding, step by step.
00:18:39.630 --> 00:18:52.700 Dale Atkins (her/she): And they try new things, and they do all kinds of things while they're together. One day they'll go to the library, another day they'll walk the shelter dogs, they go to the playground, and then they pick what they're going to do.
00:18:52.700 --> 00:19:00.129 Dale Atkins (her/she): And one day, they go to, to the water's edge, they go to the shore, because the grandmother lives near a beach.
00:19:01.550 --> 00:19:20.609 Dale Atkins (her/she): And they're having a grand old time, and here I'll just show your, the people who are watching some of the illustrations, which are so delightful. The book is illustrated by a woman named Angelina Jones, and she is just remarkable.
00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:29.749 Dale Atkins (her/she): And, excuse me, Amelina. Amelina. And so, here we are, they've just been spending the whole week together, and they're coming up to Friday.
00:19:30.110 --> 00:19:33.239 Dale Atkins (her/she): On Friday, Grandma had a new adventure.
00:19:34.270 --> 00:19:45.669 Dale Atkins (her/she): Victoria's belly butterfly swished. Victoria and Grandma held hands as they swam into the shallows at the beach, spying on the silvery fish that darted around them.
00:19:45.710 --> 00:19:59.650 Dale Atkins (her/she): Just then, the current swirled, and the sea stirred. A wave pulled Grandma and Victoria apart. Victoria tried to swim, but the current was too strong. Her belly thumped. I can't touch the bottom!
00:20:03.670 --> 00:20:07.360 Dale Atkins (her/she): Grandma reached out for Victoria's hand, leaned back.
00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:13.489 Dale Atkins (her/she): Spread your wigs, just like a butterfly, and the current will carry us to where it's safe.
00:20:14.130 --> 00:20:24.449 Dale Atkins (her/she): Then Grandma sang, butterfly, butterfly in the sky, like a flower floating by. When you see a butterfly blue, know that I am there with you.
00:20:24.580 --> 00:20:31.109 Dale Atkins (her/she): Victoria sang along as they floated down the shore. When they could touch, they walked to their blanket or anew.
00:20:31.930 --> 00:20:37.799 Dale Atkins (her/she): This is one part of the book where we see that the granddaughter is really very frightened.
00:20:38.070 --> 00:20:41.739 Dale Atkins (her/she): But through calmness and presence.
00:20:42.280 --> 00:20:56.319 Dale Atkins (her/she): and gentleness, and really trying to teach her what I like to refer to as a mantra, something that she can go to when she feels very, very scared. The grandmother shows the little girl that she's going to be okay.
00:20:56.410 --> 00:21:13.910 Dale Atkins (her/she): very often when we work with children who have anxiety, we try to teach them ways to calm themselves internally. And sometimes, being able to repeat a few words, something that's meaningful to them, something that can make them feel grounded and
00:21:13.910 --> 00:21:26.229 Dale Atkins (her/she): connected with someone or someplace really does… really does work. So I integrated that into the book, and then I also wanted, as a reminder.
00:21:26.750 --> 00:21:34.770 Dale Atkins (her/she): you know, you may be familiar with, Maslow's hierarchy of basic needs. The very first
00:21:35.080 --> 00:21:42.260 Dale Atkins (her/she): Hierarchies in the listing, have to do with being safe and protected.
00:21:42.630 --> 00:21:43.010 Frank R. Harrison: Yes.
00:21:43.010 --> 00:21:46.079 Dale Atkins (her/she): And… and then feeling love and security.
00:21:46.180 --> 00:22:02.110 Dale Atkins (her/she): And so, I think that grandparents, you know, when the grandmother reached out her hand, when they floated together, when they were really connected, the child began to feel more secure, more safe. And this was in a tram… really a very tumultuous moment.
00:22:02.630 --> 00:22:03.320 Frank R. Harrison: Yes.
00:22:04.090 --> 00:22:06.990 Dale Atkins (her/she): But if we… we don't have to be in a tumultuous moment.
00:22:07.050 --> 00:22:20.529 Dale Atkins (her/she): If we sense that a younger person is feeling unsteady or uncomfortable, we can reach out our hand. We can talk to them gently. We can talk to them and listen to what it is they're concerned about.
00:22:20.590 --> 00:22:31.009 Dale Atkins (her/she): And really take their concerns seriously and say, I can understand how you would feel that way. Why don't we try and do this, and it might make us feel a little lighter, or a little less frightened.
00:22:31.080 --> 00:22:48.020 Dale Atkins (her/she): So, that's what I was trying to do in that portion. And then, of course, they go back, and great-grandma Sylvia… Grandma Sylvia is now exhausted, because here is this person who is always fluttering around, but she's exhausted because she's old, and she's tired, and she, too.
00:22:48.890 --> 00:22:50.020 Dale Atkins (her/she): A bit of a…
00:22:50.150 --> 00:23:01.280 Dale Atkins (her/she): a throw in the, you know, in the water, but she was trying very hard to take care of her granddaughter. So this is the first time in the book when we see the granddaughter, Victoria.
00:23:01.310 --> 00:23:15.000 Dale Atkins (her/she): try to take care of the grandmother. And so she brings her tea, and so we see a little bit of a change in an awareness of caregiving, and how caregiving can also be a model for intergenerational relationships.
00:23:15.990 --> 00:23:35.500 Dale Atkins (her/she): And the little girl says, well, we're still having an adventure, and yes, we're having an adventure, we just have to adapt. So they go, and they look in the butterfly garden, and they see a chrysalis, and it's about adaptation, and understanding that you can be disappointed that something didn't work out, but what do we get from that?
00:23:35.500 --> 00:23:51.640 Dale Atkins (her/she): So the grandmother is a wonderful role model, and then the little girl goes away, and then she gets a year older, and so does the grandmother. So the next time when they're together, the grandmother now is on a cane, and the little girl is leading her
00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:57.230 Dale Atkins (her/she): And she is now planning their next gathering. So where do they go?
00:23:57.410 --> 00:23:59.460 Dale Atkins (her/she): They go to the butterfly farm.
00:23:59.730 --> 00:24:02.549 Dale Atkins (her/she): And the little girl has planned this over the year.
00:24:02.690 --> 00:24:08.030 Dale Atkins (her/she): And she's, as I said, she's getting a little bolder. Well, what happens? They get lost.
00:24:08.530 --> 00:24:18.449 Dale Atkins (her/she): And the grandmother now is the one who's frightened, and who is really feeling out of sorts, and so it's the granddaughter that remembers and sings her the song.
00:24:18.760 --> 00:24:25.460 Dale Atkins (her/she): and a ranger hears them singing. So, we go through not only watching how
00:24:25.600 --> 00:24:29.529 Dale Atkins (her/she): How the type of relationship shifts.
00:24:29.910 --> 00:24:45.460 Dale Atkins (her/she): And I don't want to say that the child becomes the grandparent and the grandparent becomes the child, because I don't believe that. I believe that we learn techniques of how to care for a person when they are in this stage of development that they're in.
00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:48.679 Dale Atkins (her/she): and… Someone may be…
00:24:48.790 --> 00:24:54.919 Dale Atkins (her/she): acting as if they are frightened as a child, but they are just frightened. They're not a child.
00:24:55.380 --> 00:25:02.109 Dale Atkins (her/she): Unless they are. And so we deal with them with the respect that they still need and deserve.
00:25:02.460 --> 00:25:08.699 Dale Atkins (her/she): And we deal with that person with dignity, just as we want to deal with a child with dignity.
00:25:08.810 --> 00:25:19.139 Dale Atkins (her/she): So, when… at the second summer, when they leave, they have a wonderful butterfly hug, and they are very engaged, and then, of course.
00:25:20.420 --> 00:25:26.650 Dale Atkins (her/she): Another year goes by, and Grandma Sylvia dies, and her… And her mother?
00:25:27.580 --> 00:25:39.370 Dale Atkins (her/she): I mean, Victoria's mother comes to school, and she's waiting for her, and then we see how this little girl goes through all of the emotions that she has missing her grandmother.
00:25:39.380 --> 00:25:40.150 Frank R. Harrison: Wow.
00:25:40.330 --> 00:25:45.320 Dale Atkins (her/she): And she keeps developing, she's a year older, and she decides that she's bold enough
00:25:45.560 --> 00:25:47.440 Dale Atkins (her/she): That she's gonna try and go to camp.
00:25:47.710 --> 00:25:49.269 Dale Atkins (her/she): And she goes to camp.
00:25:49.860 --> 00:26:05.300 Dale Atkins (her/she): And wouldn't you know that when she lands, when she gets off the bus, there's a beautiful turquoise butterfly that lands right there. And so she feels connected. So the other part of this book that I really was very, very serious about trying to get the message across.
00:26:05.330 --> 00:26:20.580 Dale Atkins (her/she): About is how we help children deal with impending passing of the people that they love, and also how can we prepare them, and what can we sensitize them to as far as signs that are around them?
00:26:20.580 --> 00:26:27.610 Dale Atkins (her/she): Now, when this girl sees the butterfly, she'll always think of her grandmother, and she might even sing the little song when she's afraid.
00:26:27.630 --> 00:26:43.340 Dale Atkins (her/she): So, it's really not only about how we can be present for our grandchildren, it's also how we can help them prepare for when we are not any longer going to be here. So, what is our legacy? What do we want to leave them with?
00:26:43.340 --> 00:26:49.820 Dale Atkins (her/she): What do we want them to have internalized about the lessons about life that we can help them with?
00:26:49.930 --> 00:27:03.160 Dale Atkins (her/she): And I think that these are all very important messages. I'll share with you that I've gotten quite a lovely number of responses from people who've read the book, and so many have said something like.
00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:15.989 Dale Atkins (her/she): if not this, which is what someone said, I'd wished I'd had this when I was younger, when my grandfather died, because it would have been so much more helpful to understand how to deal with the death of my grandparent, and…
00:27:16.130 --> 00:27:19.409 Dale Atkins (her/she): And grandparents, for many children.
00:27:19.540 --> 00:27:36.640 Dale Atkins (her/she): are the first people that they'll lose, and these are very, very close relationships. So if we can be conscious of how we live with them, and what we want to be for them when we are here and when we're not here, so that
00:27:36.670 --> 00:27:48.780 Dale Atkins (her/she): The memory lives on. The occasions live on. They will be able to remind themselves and feel sad but good about what it was they shared with their grandparent.
00:27:48.880 --> 00:28:05.600 Dale Atkins (her/she): And that's just the benefit for the child. I mean, they learn so much about their history, they learn about their parents through their grandparents, you know, the stories that they tell, and they also learn about their traditions that only these… this particular family has.
00:28:05.990 --> 00:28:22.819 Dale Atkins (her/she): and the ancestral stories, as well as the different personalities. And they get to read different personalities and different situations through the eyes of the grandparents, whose eyes are different from the eyes of their parents.
00:28:23.510 --> 00:28:39.250 Frank R. Harrison: Wow. Now, I already have so many questions, and yet we're ready for our second break, so I will ask you them in the beginning of our third section, but I would like to take the remaining time for you to tell people how they can go onto your website and get the book directly from the publisher.
00:28:39.250 --> 00:28:57.900 Dale Atkins (her/she): Oh, thank you. Well, my website is www.drdaleatkins.com, and again, that's D-R-D-A-L-E-A-T-K-I-N-S dot com, and you could go directly online to
00:28:57.930 --> 00:29:12.290 Dale Atkins (her/she): mascot Books, because this is published by Mascot Books, which is the children's division of Amplify Publishers, and that would be, mascotbooks.com slash product slash
00:29:12.370 --> 00:29:26.600 Dale Atkins (her/she): The hyphen turquoise hyphen butterfly slash So that's https:// Mascot Books.
00:29:26.760 --> 00:29:37.140 Dale Atkins (her/she): dot com slash product slash the hyphen turquoise hyphen butterfly slash
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:48.439 Dale Atkins (her/she): But if you go to my website, you can find it there. And if you do go to Mascot Books, you can get the book in just a few days. The official publication date
00:29:48.440 --> 00:30:00.810 Dale Atkins (her/she): is January 6th, so if you pre-order it at a bookstore, or Amazon, or Barnes & Noble, as you said, Frank, you will probably receive it around the first of the year.
00:30:01.090 --> 00:30:05.619 Frank R. Harrison: Okay, and then, of course, also, we will have a QR code right there for everyone to see.
00:30:05.620 --> 00:30:13.249 Dale Atkins (her/she): And the QR code, I think that is going to be shown, and that's what it is, and you can go directly there. Yes?
00:30:13.250 --> 00:30:15.440 Frank R. Harrison: Okay. And I hope that you will…
00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:28.559 Dale Atkins (her/she): buy it and enjoy it, and I think it will be a wonderful conversation starter. A few parents have bought it for their parents, the grandparents, and that's been a very nice thing to hear about.
00:30:29.260 --> 00:30:43.720 Frank R. Harrison: Awesome. Alright, everybody, I, we're gonna go to commercial break, and I will flip the screen to show the page on her website that features the book, and then I will ask my questions about the book when we return, so please stay tuned, we'll be back in a few.
00:32:24.370 --> 00:32:41.469 Frank R. Harrison: Hey everybody, and welcome back. Basically, I've already had a chance to preview the book, and at the same time, when I'm hearing Dr. Dale Atkins' description about that last scene where the grandmother dies, and then she sees the turquoise butterfly.
00:32:41.510 --> 00:32:52.569 Frank R. Harrison: The one thing that came to my mind, and I want to know if that's the way you felt, Dr. Dale, when you wrote it, is that the turquoise butterfly was her grandmother. Would that be a fair assessment?
00:32:54.060 --> 00:32:56.390 Frank R. Harrison: I'll unmute first. It's okay.
00:32:56.660 --> 00:33:05.919 Dale Atkins (her/she): That is a very fair assessment. I… first of all, this is my experience when, my mother's, I call it her totem.
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:18.039 Dale Atkins (her/she): is a butterfly, and I see a butterfly, and I just feel this connection, and I think that she's very with me, very much with me. I do feel that it's important for children to know that they can
00:33:18.040 --> 00:33:23.050 Dale Atkins (her/she): Feel the presence of people that they love, whether they are with us or not.
00:33:23.080 --> 00:33:32.090 Dale Atkins (her/she): And after they pass away, that they might be able to tap into the energy, the sense of the person to remind them, you know.
00:33:32.440 --> 00:33:35.069 Dale Atkins (her/she): we're gonna be having Thanksgiving coming up soon.
00:33:35.160 --> 00:34:00.119 Dale Atkins (her/she): And I think that when you're sitting at a holiday table, if your grandparent or someone that you care deeply about from another generation used to be there and isn't, you talk about them, and you… I mean, I always use my grandmother's dishes, and that's, you know, it's part of the tradition. But specifically, yes, I believe that it's important for people to be able to openly say, you know, I hear this song.
00:34:00.120 --> 00:34:10.530 Dale Atkins (her/she): reminds me of my uncle. Oh, how my uncle did blah blah blah. And we had so much fun together. I think it… there's something about the eternality of love.
00:34:10.770 --> 00:34:21.429 Dale Atkins (her/she): And the eternality of the connection. You know, it is often said in very many Very many traditions that
00:34:21.780 --> 00:34:23.450 Dale Atkins (her/she): A person dies twice.
00:34:23.699 --> 00:34:29.540 Dale Atkins (her/she): Once when their body no longer functions, and once when people stop saying their name.
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:33.489 Dale Atkins (her/she): I think that it is for me.
00:34:33.620 --> 00:34:42.190 Dale Atkins (her/she): It is essential for people to keep the memory of the people that they cared about alive.
00:34:42.350 --> 00:34:49.370 Dale Atkins (her/she): And the way that we do this is to not only honor them in the choices that we make in the way we live.
00:34:49.409 --> 00:35:02.480 Dale Atkins (her/she): Right. But in keeping the stories, the lessons, the failures and the triumphs, you know? Sometimes we have a sense, and I don't know, maybe we think we have an obligation to
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:17.400 Dale Atkins (her/she): create a fantasy about a person after they've died, either very, very fondly, or in a way that we're not really happy with them. And… and I think that when we notice
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:40.939 Dale Atkins (her/she): qualities, traits, characteristics in other family members, and we point them out and say, you know, you're very sensitive with dogs, or you, you know, you're such… you're so great with animals. Your uncle used to be, your aunt used to be, you know, did you know your aunt raised dogs? To make a connection, to… to try and help children feel that they are part of
00:35:40.940 --> 00:35:44.710 Dale Atkins (her/she): A longer line of just what's here right now.
00:35:44.710 --> 00:35:58.410 Dale Atkins (her/she): That has to do with all kinds of lessons and all kinds of connections. One could be religion, one could be the customs of tradition, whatever it is, but to not shy away from that.
00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:16.139 Dale Atkins (her/she): And the children really do seem to enjoy that, to pay attention to stories, not in a pedantic, teaching, shaking your finger way, but just, this is what we did, this is who we are, this is what we recall. And… and…
00:36:16.140 --> 00:36:23.779 Dale Atkins (her/she): It gives… I mentioned it before, it gives the child and the parent and grandparent a sense of purpose and meaning.
00:36:24.030 --> 00:36:24.350 Frank R. Harrison: Yes.
00:36:24.350 --> 00:36:34.250 Dale Atkins (her/she): Also has this sense of connection, and as people get significantly older, Sometimes, what accompanies that
00:36:34.450 --> 00:36:41.379 Dale Atkins (her/she): is an intense feeling of loneliness and disconnection. So, when you're conscious of that.
00:36:41.540 --> 00:36:49.609 Dale Atkins (her/she): You want to try and prevent that from happening in a way that can be at least tempered with.
00:36:49.610 --> 00:36:50.120 Frank R. Harrison: Yes.
00:36:50.120 --> 00:37:08.349 Dale Atkins (her/she): keeping engagement. So what better way to engage than in an intergenerational relationship? It's also very, very good for the physical well-being of a person, and it's also very good for the mental and the spiritual well-being of a person, and
00:37:08.580 --> 00:37:22.509 Dale Atkins (her/she): You know, it strengthens the bonds, because you are in a position of, again, what is your legacy? But what are the things that you learned that you would like to share?
00:37:22.620 --> 00:37:40.770 Dale Atkins (her/she): And it's, again, it's not pedantic, it's just being in the company of someone and doing things, and that, oh, this reminds me of, or this is reminiscent of. And those are the things that kids remember, and then they can teach us. They can teach us
00:37:40.860 --> 00:38:00.759 Dale Atkins (her/she): I mean, I'm sure I wouldn't be able to be on this call with you had I not had a grandchild show me exactly how to do what I need to do. But additionally, to keep myself engaged with music, with, you know, just pop culture, and to share in that way.
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:09.569 Dale Atkins (her/she): is really quite remarkable. I also think that it… it helps younger people to value.
00:38:09.570 --> 00:38:10.290 Frank R. Harrison: Right.
00:38:10.290 --> 00:38:11.280 Dale Atkins (her/she): Aging.
00:38:11.480 --> 00:38:23.899 Dale Atkins (her/she): While noticing many of the challenges that come along with aging. And if they are given a model of someone who is patient with them.
00:38:24.060 --> 00:38:27.010 Dale Atkins (her/she): And empathetic with them.
00:38:27.270 --> 00:38:30.069 Dale Atkins (her/she): And kind with them.
00:38:30.340 --> 00:38:35.410 Dale Atkins (her/she): They hopefully will internalize those Characteristics.
00:38:35.410 --> 00:38:37.690 Frank R. Harrison: And be patient.
00:38:37.780 --> 00:38:40.930 Dale Atkins (her/she): And empathetic. And kind.
00:38:41.130 --> 00:38:43.919 Dale Atkins (her/she): With the people that they care about.
00:38:44.270 --> 00:39:00.309 Frank R. Harrison: I could see that the relationship between Victoria and her grandmother was to be able to complete a circle by the time, not only when she passed, but also to be in the position to be almost at the full circle moment when her own mother, or father.
00:39:00.530 --> 00:39:17.329 Frank R. Harrison: I didn't fully understand if it was just a mother or if she had both parents with her, but at the same time, she needs to be in the position to care for them as they're aging. So the bond between her and her grandmother helps to invoke within her her strengths.
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:20.799 Frank R. Harrison: To be able to give back what she was given when she was a child.
00:39:21.220 --> 00:39:32.280 Dale Atkins (her/she): I really appreciate that that's what you took from this, because that was very much my intention, and so much more so because in so many families, we have
00:39:32.450 --> 00:39:52.320 Dale Atkins (her/she): grandparents and great-uncles and great-aunts living far away, so we don't see them in the day-to-day, and sometimes when we do see them, they may not be as well as they were. The children have grown much more than the last time they saw, and we need to adapt to that fact, but also have
00:39:52.340 --> 00:40:05.889 Dale Atkins (her/she): opportunities to be engaged, given where everybody is. And, you know, you kind of pick off… pick up where you left off in some ways, and in other ways, you begin with a new
00:40:05.890 --> 00:40:17.490 Dale Atkins (her/she): foundation for a new beginning. But you have to be very present, and you have to be very conscious, and notice what's going on, and deal with what you notice within yourself.
00:40:17.620 --> 00:40:18.769 Dale Atkins (her/she): And if…
00:40:19.170 --> 00:40:42.480 Dale Atkins (her/she): there is the type of communication in the family where one discusses what one is conscious of and what one sees, which is not the case in every family. You can really talk about, you know, last time when I was here, we walked to the lake. I'm not walking to the lake so well unless I hold your hand, or unless we sit at the bench. I'd like to do it, but it's not the same experience.
00:40:42.610 --> 00:40:45.010 Dale Atkins (her/she): We'll have a different experience, right?
00:40:45.470 --> 00:40:48.580 Frank R. Harrison: Right. I guess it makes me question… oh, I'm sorry.
00:40:48.580 --> 00:40:49.840 Dale Atkins (her/she): Yes, no, please.
00:40:49.840 --> 00:41:09.389 Frank R. Harrison: Oh, I was gonna say, it makes me question, though, that it appears, and I could be just making a generalization here, but it appears that we live in a society that in the last, I don't know if it's 30 years, 40 years, maybe even as far as 50 years, where there's so much dysfunction and disintegration with family systems, that as a result.
00:41:09.490 --> 00:41:14.740 Frank R. Harrison: That full-circle moment is not fully, educated until the moment of crisis.
00:41:14.790 --> 00:41:33.359 Frank R. Harrison: Or possibly, there are family dynamics, rivalry dynamics, or other things that get into play to actually divide the bonds that are developed between, whether it's the child and the grandparents, or the child and the regular parents, or the, you know, the direct parents.
00:41:33.690 --> 00:41:51.229 Frank R. Harrison: But my question is, is that, you know, there's obviously a psychological reason for that. It's not just, I'm gonna come in and disrupt everybody's dynamics. What would you say is the basis for how, even though your book exemplifies the perfect scenario.
00:41:51.260 --> 00:41:57.509 Frank R. Harrison: For a child. What is the reason for the constant state of disruption in these family systems today?
00:41:58.650 --> 00:42:03.940 Dale Atkins (her/she): I appreciate the question. I think I'd like to address it in a few parts.
00:42:03.940 --> 00:42:04.580 Frank R. Harrison: Sure.
00:42:04.790 --> 00:42:12.250 Dale Atkins (her/she): Okay? One is that we only have this moment. So, this… this… book.
00:42:13.370 --> 00:42:16.990 Dale Atkins (her/she): Took place in a week with this grandmother and granddaughter.
00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:19.000 Dale Atkins (her/she): The following summer.
00:42:20.310 --> 00:42:28.389 Dale Atkins (her/she): with another family, they may not have that week together. So, we have this moment that we have, and whatever is happening in this moment.
00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:35.270 Dale Atkins (her/she): We must not lose sight of what our goal is as a grandparent, or as a great-aunt, or…
00:42:35.680 --> 00:42:51.980 Dale Atkins (her/she): whomever the older person is, and that's why I'm not discussing it from the perspective of the child, because if the child is, let's say, in a situation where one of the parents says, I'm not going to let you see your grandparents, or I'm not comfortable with your grandparent, whatever it is,
00:42:52.090 --> 00:43:15.889 Dale Atkins (her/she): The grandparent still has a role, and what is their goal? Well, they may not be able to see them, and maybe they're going to be banned from seeing them for whatever reason. I mean, we have all along the spectrum, so that would be a disruption, to use your word, in the family. But what does that mean for the grandparent? Does the grandparent say, oh, well, I tried, I can't do anything? I don't think so. I think the grandparent… the grandparent
00:43:17.270 --> 00:43:30.119 Dale Atkins (her/she): obviously must deal with what the situation is, in fact, in reality, and emotionally. So, which would, I think, would be a huge disappointment, and…
00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:47.299 Dale Atkins (her/she): expectations of what they had thought they would have as their role, engagement, but that doesn't mean that they are totally banished, even if they are banished, because they still have opportunities
00:43:47.300 --> 00:44:05.429 Dale Atkins (her/she): For instance, and I just spoke with this with someone yesterday, so it's… it's actually… it's… it's… it's very, very much in my mind, and I know that it can work. Something not dissimilar to what you just presented happened to someone I know, and we were on the phone.
00:44:05.550 --> 00:44:08.550 Dale Atkins (her/she): And we suggested,
00:44:08.870 --> 00:44:15.910 Dale Atkins (her/she): I suggested that she think of her role now in a different perspective. And I said, you know, you're a great storyteller.
00:44:16.030 --> 00:44:19.219 Dale Atkins (her/she): And you're a great writer. Why don't you…
00:44:20.140 --> 00:44:29.770 Dale Atkins (her/she): write down some stories that you would love to share with your grandkids. And she was a great traveler, she is a great traveler, and
00:44:30.470 --> 00:44:36.490 Dale Atkins (her/she): Write a story about the places that you would have liked to take them, and why you would have liked to take them there.
00:44:36.530 --> 00:44:53.160 Dale Atkins (her/she): And I also suggested to her that she talk into, her phone in, you know, how you can dictate, and tell the story first, so that at some point, you don't know, tomorrow may be different, next year may be different, she'll have recorded this story.
00:44:53.160 --> 00:45:10.210 Dale Atkins (her/she): And this is just so that she can feel a connection and want to give the information and the stories about people in her family. I suggested that she tells little stories about the grandchild's parents, who are her children. One of them is her children.
00:45:10.230 --> 00:45:25.879 Dale Atkins (her/she): And… and just small clips, just small stories, and put them as a collection. And it relieved her distress, because she felt there was something that she actually could do. She wants to be the grandparent who's involved.
00:45:26.020 --> 00:45:36.199 Dale Atkins (her/she): Right. But right now, she can't be, because the door is shut. But that doesn't mean that she can't still do something that, at some point.
00:45:36.380 --> 00:45:38.700 Dale Atkins (her/she): Whether she's here or not here.
00:45:39.330 --> 00:45:43.769 Dale Atkins (her/she): May be available to her grandchildren, and they will know.
00:45:43.930 --> 00:45:46.870 Dale Atkins (her/she): Who she was, what she was about.
00:45:47.210 --> 00:45:49.330 Dale Atkins (her/she): And they will feel her love.
00:45:49.660 --> 00:45:52.630 Dale Atkins (her/she): And is it ideal? Of course not.
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:54.529 Frank R. Harrison: Right. Is it doable?
00:45:54.640 --> 00:45:55.840 Dale Atkins (her/she): Definitely.
00:45:56.230 --> 00:46:01.369 Dale Atkins (her/she): Is it satisfactory? Maybe. It depends on how we look at it.
00:46:01.500 --> 00:46:19.699 Dale Atkins (her/she): But I do feel that it's very, very important for people to be able to work through the emotional disappointments and dashed expectations that they encounter throughout life with everyone, but particularly with grandchildren.
00:46:20.420 --> 00:46:30.069 Dale Atkins (her/she): Often, The family members don't understand that one of the things about aging is that you're very aware
00:46:30.340 --> 00:46:31.899 Dale Atkins (her/she): Of the end of life.
00:46:32.030 --> 00:46:51.829 Dale Atkins (her/she): And that it's a whole lot closer than when you were a parent yourself, or when you were a child. And other people in the family may not recognize that engaging in relationships, quality relationships, are very, very important for many older people, because they realize that they're not going to have a lot of time.
00:46:51.960 --> 00:47:00.960 Dale Atkins (her/she): And they want to utilize the time that they have. So when this is not recognized, or just can't be overcome, for whatever reason.
00:47:01.570 --> 00:47:08.099 Dale Atkins (her/she): The older person still needs to live a life that is rich and full and engaged.
00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:09.180 Dale Atkins (her/she): and…
00:47:09.500 --> 00:47:29.300 Dale Atkins (her/she): Additionally, to what I just suggested, I really, really believe that familial ties are not the only ties that are worthwhile and worth nurturing. There are so many opportunities for intergenerational relationships with great value.
00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:41.400 Dale Atkins (her/she): Where we can foster, and we can really cultivate and nurture Relationships with children
00:47:41.560 --> 00:47:47.309 Dale Atkins (her/she): of people who are not related to us. And also, if you're old enough.
00:47:47.730 --> 00:48:03.650 Dale Atkins (her/she): Younger people are people from not necessarily in childhood, but in their midlife years. And those people can be real friends, and they can be dynamic, engaged relationships.
00:48:03.650 --> 00:48:12.670 Frank R. Harrison: I just got… oh, I was just so engaged in your conversation. We're gonna take our final break and be back. I apologize, I just loved everything you said.
00:48:12.670 --> 00:48:14.990 Dale Atkins (her/she): Everybody, please stay tuned, we'll be back in a few.
00:49:45.460 --> 00:49:56.910 Frank R. Harrison: Hey everybody, and welcome back. Jesse, when you get a chance, tell me how much time we have left in this segment. This is our wrap-up segment and our promotional segment for everything, including your book, and
00:49:57.120 --> 00:50:13.869 Frank R. Harrison: How we qualify you as a disruptor, someone who sees a dynamic and knows there's a way to repair it, or help it, or improve on it, because we are living in these kinds of times right now. I was just so engaged in everything you were just saying,
00:50:14.120 --> 00:50:20.559 Frank R. Harrison: It's incredible about how everybody fundamentally wants that connection with their
00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:25.040 Frank R. Harrison: Their grandchildren, their children, their parents, their siblings, whomever.
00:50:25.200 --> 00:50:31.869 Frank R. Harrison: But for some reason, there's this ongoing trend of dysfunction where people are…
00:50:32.110 --> 00:50:36.060 Frank R. Harrison: Fighting for territory over who is closer to whom, or…
00:50:36.190 --> 00:50:43.440 Frank R. Harrison: I mean, I go from the model that it's a narcissistic triangulation, but that's just a label. That doesn't fit every case.
00:50:43.490 --> 00:50:52.820 Frank R. Harrison: I think it's fundamentally at the core of when they were children and whether or not they learned the right skill set, because it is generational. You mentioned earlier about the DNA.
00:50:52.820 --> 00:51:05.799 Frank R. Harrison: in our grandparents that we pass down, you know, if we love music, and we now learn that our grandmother or grandfather was a guitar player, it speaks in our DNA, which motivates us to have an interest.
00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:12.530 Frank R. Harrison: But the same thing could be said for if there was disruption in the grandparents' lives when they were children.
00:51:12.530 --> 00:51:28.789 Frank R. Harrison: It gets passed down in terms of lack of adequate communication, or a lack of adequate knowledge in how important it is to have familial bonds, and those kinds of things, I unfortunately see as the norm. Is that fair to say, or am I misreading it?
00:51:30.740 --> 00:51:34.050 Frank R. Harrison: Oh, and unmute. Sorry.
00:51:34.360 --> 00:51:40.240 Dale Atkins (her/she): Sorry, it may be the norm in where you're seeing it, and yes, there's a lot of dysfunction.
00:51:40.410 --> 00:51:46.000 Dale Atkins (her/she): I… I don't think I'm unrealistic. I do tend towards optimism.
00:51:46.150 --> 00:51:47.840 Dale Atkins (her/she): And I always have hope.
00:51:48.170 --> 00:51:50.799 Dale Atkins (her/she): I believe that we adapt.
00:51:51.020 --> 00:52:00.160 Dale Atkins (her/she): when we don't adapt, and when we fight, when we say, oh, I wish this person were more like that, I wish that they would do this, I wish that… yes.
00:52:00.340 --> 00:52:03.079 Dale Atkins (her/she): That would be nice, but that's not what we've got.
00:52:03.240 --> 00:52:05.359 Dale Atkins (her/she): How do we work with what we have?
00:52:05.810 --> 00:52:12.010 Dale Atkins (her/she): And how can we engage in a way in our families.
00:52:12.190 --> 00:52:14.239 Dale Atkins (her/she): That can be good enough.
00:52:14.360 --> 00:52:21.689 Dale Atkins (her/she): Instead of fighting, instead of trying to do it her way, because… because…
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:23.549 Dale Atkins (her/she): We have to do it that way.
00:52:23.560 --> 00:52:25.859 Frank R. Harrison: Right. Just, why don't we do it her way?
00:52:25.860 --> 00:52:43.639 Dale Atkins (her/she): Unless it's painful or hurtful, let's just do it her way, because it's her house, and it's her kid, so let's do it her way. I think that in the world of grandparenting, one of the things that's really great is, you know, when you're with the kids alone, you have them all to yourself. I don't suggest you disrespect
00:52:43.740 --> 00:53:02.879 Dale Atkins (her/she): a parent's parenting, but I think that you also have an opportunity to have input of the way you are going to relate to this child in a way that hopefully is respectful, and safe, and encouraging, and loving. I mean, really, at the core is
00:53:03.220 --> 00:53:19.080 Dale Atkins (her/she): why do we feel that there's a finite amount of love? You know, I want you to love me more than your other grandmother. What is that? What is that message? The message is, how lucky can you be to have so many people who love you?
00:53:19.080 --> 00:53:32.970 Dale Atkins (her/she): And everyone shows their love in a different way, you know? This one has this talent, this has this talent, this one likes to be quiet, this one likes to be engaged. It's… if we don't judge it, if we don't say it's better.
00:53:32.970 --> 00:53:50.229 Dale Atkins (her/she): Or it's much more fun. Or, I mean, maybe it's more fun at certain times of your life, but then maybe later, it's going to be more fun, or even different and engaging with this person. So, each of us has to come to the party with what we have. We can't be who we're not.
00:53:50.580 --> 00:53:57.290 Dale Atkins (her/she): The dysfunctional part is disturbing because it prevents us
00:53:57.660 --> 00:54:06.490 Dale Atkins (her/she): From being able to really be open-hearted, And trusting, because we're suspicious.
00:54:06.510 --> 00:54:26.290 Dale Atkins (her/she): Someone's trying to get us, someone's going to trap us, someone's going to say something that's going to hurt us. When you're defensive, and when you're really concerned that you're going to be hurt, you don't feel safe. And as I said before, that's one of the five basic… it is the basic
00:54:26.400 --> 00:54:33.610 Dale Atkins (her/she): elements of… of being able to develop wholly. And so, when we don't have things
00:54:34.520 --> 00:54:39.990 Dale Atkins (her/she): That are basic to our development, We, hopefully.
00:54:40.890 --> 00:54:58.389 Dale Atkins (her/she): work on that. We get stuck, but hopefully we will look for other people in our lives who can help to mend and help to give us what we need. But we also need to pay attention to feed ourselves what we need and not keep
00:54:58.470 --> 00:55:05.569 Dale Atkins (her/she): Feeding ourselves that which is unhealthy for us. Back to the grandparent and the intergenerational experience.
00:55:06.330 --> 00:55:08.599 Dale Atkins (her/she): I think what's important is that
00:55:08.780 --> 00:55:21.649 Dale Atkins (her/she): when you're in a family, you have to recognize what the… what the rules are, and who sets the rules. You know, I'm reminded of Fiddler on the Roof, the papa, the mama, well, okay.
00:55:21.650 --> 00:55:29.260 Dale Atkins (her/she): And then the next generation, the next one is the papa, so what happened to the other papa? Who's making the rules?
00:55:29.260 --> 00:55:36.819 Dale Atkins (her/she): And who is dictating The limitations of who can do what and who can say what.
00:55:36.850 --> 00:55:47.259 Dale Atkins (her/she): I mean, you know, again, we're coming up to Thanksgiving, and, you know, well, this person's gonna be here, we can't talk about that, or that person's gonna be over there, she won't like to sit next to that one.
00:55:47.260 --> 00:56:03.050 Dale Atkins (her/she): And you can make yourself crazy, or you can say, let's try and just set a table with love, and try not to engage in a way that is going to be really challenging, in a way that is going to be hurtful, because
00:56:03.100 --> 00:56:09.970 Dale Atkins (her/she): We are together. And what does that mean in this family? What does it mean for a family to be together?
00:56:10.100 --> 00:56:17.209 Dale Atkins (her/she): Do we… do we talk about our history? Do we talk about ancestors? Do we talk about…
00:56:17.320 --> 00:56:28.480 Dale Atkins (her/she): what we're doing now to engage in a community. I think that sometimes, as I said before, we don't want to lose sight of who we are and what our goal is as a grandparent.
00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:38.799 Dale Atkins (her/she): You know, I will just share with you that someone shared a story that they were at a birthday party, and the grandmother wanted to sit next to the birthday girl who wanted to sit next to somebody else.
00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:50.770 Dale Atkins (her/she): And… and that didn't work out too well. Well, it wasn't enough to the little girl to take care of her grandmother, it was up to the grandmother to take care of herself. And yes, she could feel badly about it, but you know what?
00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:55.889 Dale Atkins (her/she): This happens, and you can engage at a different time.
00:56:56.180 --> 00:56:56.570 Frank R. Harrison: Yay.
00:56:56.570 --> 00:57:01.760 Dale Atkins (her/she): You know, if an adult is sulking at the table, it's not good for most of the rest of the guests.
00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:19.720 Frank R. Harrison: Well, we're about to end the show, but I just want to give a few comments. Everybody, you must get this book. I already showed you the QR code, I've already shown you the website. At the same time, you mentioned earlier, Dale, about the Meslow hierarchy of needs. One of the things that you just said
00:57:19.720 --> 00:57:24.620 Frank R. Harrison: rang true to me, that a lot of people don't reach the final hierarchy, which is self-actualization.
00:57:24.620 --> 00:57:25.010 Dale Atkins (her/she): Correct.
00:57:25.010 --> 00:57:35.429 Frank R. Harrison: And I think it's a lot of the dysfunction that occurs along the journey that prevents that. But, this is a show, after all, targeted towards my Voices of Disruption campaign.
00:57:35.430 --> 00:57:47.639 Frank R. Harrison: You definitely fit the bill as one who's trying to show how everyone can get back on the right path. Do you have any comment as to the chaos that is going on in our society today, and how that may play a part in what's going on?
00:57:48.210 --> 00:57:49.509 Dale Atkins (her/she): Thank you for asking.
00:57:49.510 --> 00:57:49.930 Frank R. Harrison: Okay.
00:57:49.930 --> 00:57:58.429 Dale Atkins (her/she): My comment is that We have control over how we respond to the chaos.
00:57:58.680 --> 00:58:03.030 Dale Atkins (her/she): We may not be able to affect the chaos.
00:58:03.080 --> 00:58:21.170 Dale Atkins (her/she): But we have control over how we manage our own stress in relation to the chaos. And we can do what we can do, starting within our families and our local communities, and we can affect change by using our voice in a way that
00:58:21.310 --> 00:58:23.040 Dale Atkins (her/she): is respectful.
00:58:23.160 --> 00:58:42.489 Dale Atkins (her/she): and powerful, and action-oriented, but we don't want to lose sight of our humanity. No matter what's going on around us, we have to be human to one another, we have to be respectful, we have to see the humanity in our neighbor, and we need to be kind.
00:58:42.620 --> 00:58:55.550 Dale Atkins (her/she): And we need to take care of ourselves in order to be able to do that, because just to be able to get up and go out into a chaotic world, we need to be sure that we are truly caring for ourselves.
00:58:55.550 --> 00:59:07.519 Dale Atkins (her/she): And having compassion for ourselves, and eating healthfully, and moving our bodies, and getting enough sleep, and being with friends, and putting down our devices.
00:59:07.520 --> 00:59:19.050 Dale Atkins (her/she): just to be in nature, to feel connected with the natural world, is one of the most important ways that I take care of myself.
00:59:19.050 --> 00:59:33.199 Dale Atkins (her/she): And I like to share with people that I meet, because it has a way of grounding us, no pun intended, and making us feel connected when we feel so, overwhelmed.
00:59:33.200 --> 00:59:46.909 Frank R. Harrison: Yes, yes. Ladies and gentlemen, this has been a therapeutic show for me, as I hope it has been for you. Again, the book is available on her website, as well as on Amazon.com and Barnesandnoble.com.
00:59:46.940 --> 00:59:54.110 Frank R. Harrison: You have seen the LinkedIn page where you can reach her. I gather that's where they can reach you if they want to reach out to you.
00:59:54.110 --> 00:59:54.550 Dale Atkins (her/she): Yes.
00:59:54.550 --> 00:59:55.539 Frank R. Harrison: on your website, I think.
00:59:55.540 --> 01:00:00.460 Dale Atkins (her/she): My website, my email, my email is dale at drdaleatkins.com, yes?
01:00:00.460 --> 01:00:19.080 Frank R. Harrison: And ladies and gentlemen, we're about to sign off, so please stay tuned to… for another episode of Frank About Health next week, and thank you so much, Dale, for being here. And thank you, Jesse, behind the scenes, for engineering this show, and we will all see you all next week. Take care.
01:00:19.080 --> 01:00:20.249 Dale Atkins (her/she): Thank you, Frank.
01:00:20.250 --> 01:00:21.599 Frank R. Harrison: Thank you. Alright.
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