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EPISODE SUMMARY:
A more holistic "Whole Being" approach to medicine will be discussed in comparison to existing Western medicine views.
Dr. Tom Ingegno DACM, LAC, is a clinician, speaker, and best-selling author of "The Cupping Book." With over 24 years in integrative and functional medicine, he owns Charm City Integrative Health, dubbed the "Future of Medicine" by futurist David Houle.
Featured in consumer and professional media, Dr. Tom uses modern research, traditional practices, and humor to make complex treatments understandable, helping patients and practitioners develop no-nonsense approaches to thriving.
His podcast Irreverent Health with over 180 episodes is an incredibly passionate and conversation-worthy for a myriad of health topics from biohacking to life-extension, acupuncture, wearable technologies, psychedelics, supplements, health charlatans, weight loss fads, public health policies and philosophical arguments about digital consciousness. On Frank About Health, we will show this as an act of responding to Healthcare Disruption!
Website: www.charmcityintegrative.com/
Podcast: irreverenthealth.com/
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/baltimoreacupuncture/
In this episode of Frank About Health, host Frank R. Harrison welcomes Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM, to explore how integrative medicine challenges the limitations of the U.S. healthcare system. Together, they discuss the value of Eastern medical philosophies, evidence-based holistic practices, and the need to reclaim healthcare from insurance-driven restrictions that often undermine patient outcomes. Through Dr. Ingegno’s journey from traditional pre-med to acupuncture and his founding of Charm City Integrative Health, the conversation emphasizes how combining modern science with traditional wisdom can restore balance, accessibility, and authenticity to healthcare delivery.
Frank shares his path from business and the music industry to neuropsychology and healthcare advocacy—shaped by lived experience with epilepsy, caregiver responsibilities, and research at NYU Langone—illustrating how personal narratives can catalyze mission-driven work like Frank About Health. Dr. Tom Ingegno explains how Taoist principles, tai chi, and East Asian medicine informed his shift from pre-med to acupuncture and integrative practice, and how their podcast Irreverent Health grew during COVID to explore evidence-informed ideas—from biohacking to psychedelics—without chasing trends. Together they underscore the power of community-building and accessible platforms (think Zoom-era connection) to advance patient-centered, integrative care that complements conventional medicine while staying ethically grounded and practically useful for providers and advocates.
Frank and Dr. Tom clarify that Irreverent Health ranges far beyond acupuncture—connecting East Asian medicine principles with modalities like audio entrainment, EFT, NLP, and broader mind-body practices—while honoring origins and translating them for modern care. They urge patients and professionals to “own” healthcare: COVID exposed limits of an insurance-driven system, tech has leveled the information playing field (for better and worse), and prevention, community, and integrative options are essential complements to conventional care. Citing rising premiums, inconsistent 2026 acupuncture coverage, AI-assisted denials, and state-by-state variability, they call on advocates and providers to push for patient-centered access while building resilient, tribe-based networks that make practical support and evidence-informed alternatives easier to use.
Frank’s rapid-fire wrap highlights Irreverent Health episodes that signal where care is headed—psychedelics and longevity (Luis Hecker), AI’s accelerating role, and forthcoming consciousness work with IONS—pointing to truly personalized, N=1 medicine. Together, he and Dr. Ingegno argue for a “whole-being” model (mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, and digital/community) that honors traditional roots—“half doctor, half shaman”—while translating them into practical, evidence-informed options for modern clinicians and advocates. They close by urging people to own their health through real education and trusted teams, leaning into prevention to cut costs and complexity, and carrying the “voices of disruption” forward through ongoing collaborations and community building.
00:00:53.010 --> 00:01:08.240 Frank R. Harrison: Hey everybody, it is November 6th, 2025, and thank you for attending this very important Voice of Disruption episode of Frank About Health. It is my pleasure to introduce Dr. Tom Ingenio, correct?
00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:09.140 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Yes.
00:01:09.230 --> 00:01:10.610 Frank R. Harrison: Perfect.
00:01:10.610 --> 00:01:12.000 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Well, yeah.
00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:28.619 Frank R. Harrison: Basically, I have been looking forward to this conversation for two weeks now, especially as we did have initial discussions about acupuncture, as well as what's going on in our society these days with our healthcare bills, and
00:01:28.620 --> 00:01:36.219 Frank R. Harrison: Particularly the bill that is disrupting healthcare, as well as just understanding how Western medicine
00:01:36.380 --> 00:01:50.550 Frank R. Harrison: is not what it's cracked up to be, and a lot can be learned from Eastern medicine, which I know you have a breadth of expertise in. I'm going to talk with you, during the show about your podcast, Irreverent Health.
00:01:50.580 --> 00:01:57.850 Frank R. Harrison: as well as understanding a lot about your practice. Now, it is called…
00:01:58.010 --> 00:02:03.340 Frank R. Harrison: Charm City Integrative Health, so that itself is a topic point.
00:02:03.360 --> 00:02:11.600 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Holistic meditation, the whole being health and wellness, it's everything besides acupuncture, there's meditation in there, there's…
00:02:11.600 --> 00:02:30.300 Frank R. Harrison: herbal medicine, there's all these other aspects of healthcare that I think we all need to learn how to adopt, especially when we can't afford our medicines anymore in 2026. So, as you can already see from the first 2 or 3 minutes of this conversation, this may be a heated.
00:02:30.500 --> 00:02:31.010 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: conversation.
00:02:31.010 --> 00:02:34.489 Frank R. Harrison: but in a positive way, however, I should issue my disclaimers.
00:02:34.590 --> 00:02:45.300 Frank R. Harrison: When both myself and Tom get into conversation, we may accidentally say some non-appropriate words, but we are keeping them at a bare minimum.
00:02:45.300 --> 00:03:02.499 Frank R. Harrison: Our engineer behind the scenes will do her best to make sure that they are at least discreet to the listener that's out there, especially if they're under 18, but more importantly, they are not the views of TalkRadio.nyc or of Frank AboutHealth. It is just two
00:03:03.040 --> 00:03:14.950 Frank R. Harrison: advocates for healthcare that are very frustrated in all of the disruption that is going on, but at least we both are doing something about it. So, that all being said, we're gonna talk exactly
00:03:14.950 --> 00:03:33.929 Frank R. Harrison: with Tom throughout the hour about what he's doing, and he's doing it in multiple ways. Therefore, for all you listeners on Facebook, LinkedIn, or YouTube, if you have any live questions, please put them into your chat box. Our engineer will read them out, and we will answer them right here for you.
00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:39.729 Frank R. Harrison: Then, I can just honestly say, Tom, welcome to Frank About Health, I really appreciate it.
00:03:39.730 --> 00:03:48.269 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Frank, thank you for the huge disclaimer. It's not too often I moved to Baltimore, almost 20 years ago.
00:03:48.330 --> 00:04:05.009 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And I'm originally from Long Island, so when I get into a room with other New Yorkers, it can get a little rowdy. So, thank you for that, and certainly when we're talking about something that clearly has such a big effect.
00:04:05.290 --> 00:04:08.230 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: On… on people, like, their health.
00:04:08.670 --> 00:04:15.079 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: We should be passionate about it, we should be concerned about it, we should be talking about it, and at some times screaming about it.
00:04:15.310 --> 00:04:22.240 Frank R. Harrison: Exactly. And when we were talking originally, we were introduced by several mutual friends of ours.
00:04:22.740 --> 00:04:23.879 Frank R. Harrison: You mentioned Siobhan Laurie.
00:04:23.880 --> 00:04:24.800 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Yeah.
00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:32.360 Frank R. Harrison: Anshar Seraphim, and I think even, there was another person, actually, no, it's another person that you introduced me.
00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:33.430 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:04:33.430 --> 00:04:52.440 Frank R. Harrison: Either way, what I can honestly say is that what I liked about our initial conversation is that you could see not only how frustrated I was in dealing with caregiving issues surrounding my father, but also in how I've been trying to make real change in a…
00:04:52.440 --> 00:05:05.220 Frank R. Harrison: in a platform where a lot of miscommunication continues to get through. And I just want to do my best to interface with podcasters like yourself, who are also healthcare advocates.
00:05:05.220 --> 00:05:22.749 Frank R. Harrison: that are able to give the truth to all of our mutual listeners and viewers. So, you're kind of like a lead start in what I've been calling my Voices of Disruption campaign. I'm actually trying to come up with a product solution in the new year.
00:05:22.750 --> 00:05:32.579 Frank R. Harrison: And it's a slow build, but at least in having people on this show along the way, I know I'm in the right community that I'm building at the same time.
00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:40.560 Frank R. Harrison: So, speaking of community, why don't you explain about how you created your integrative health practice? I mean, I gather…
00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:40.980 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Yeah.
00:05:40.980 --> 00:05:44.089 Frank R. Harrison: Have a love of acupuncture, but you were really looking at the big picture.
00:05:44.090 --> 00:05:52.240 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Well, you know, this is the funny thing, where East Asian medicine as a whole is very inclusive, right? So.
00:05:52.240 --> 00:06:05.940 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Even… even with herbs, right? We… we have… I was saying this today to somebody. We have American ginseng in it. We have frankincense and myrrh in the Chinese Materia Medica. Well, those are not native to China. We…
00:06:05.940 --> 00:06:23.720 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: It was a yes and, like the rule of improv, right? Like, yes and. It wasn't one or the other. And East Asian medicine as a whole, and the reason I'm even in it, a, you know, an Italian-American from New York, is in it is because it's a living, breathing thing.
00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:43.889 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: that goes out and expands and changes to match the population, changes to match the time. I'm not a huge history buff, but one of the things I love about learning the history of East Asian medicine is that the words they use give us clues to not only what country it's in, and
00:06:43.890 --> 00:07:06.130 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: when it was… what were the main theories and philosophies of the culture in that area at the time, depending on the terminology they used for the practices. And that's a beautiful thing, and it's changing and evolving in modern times and as it spreads globally, right? So, Charm City Integrative Health has really been
00:07:06.130 --> 00:07:09.740 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: My yes end. It was what…
00:07:10.170 --> 00:07:22.950 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: looks kind of like acupuncture. What does acupuncture do on this fundamental level? And I'd say reduces inflammation, improves circulation, regulates the immune system. Well, what…
00:07:22.950 --> 00:07:27.100 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: what can I do? What services are out there that do that?
00:07:27.100 --> 00:07:46.040 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: without me having to do the work. I was trying to be lazy there. Who can I pay to press a button and make somebody feel better? And we came up with a pretty big list. Now, I was limited by, you know, space and budget, because I probably would have had another 50 toys.
00:07:46.070 --> 00:07:59.989 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: But the services that we picked were truly evidence-based. That means that they had a history of being used, patients wanted them, we weren't trying to chase fads, some of them were kind of fad when we started.
00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:11.099 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: But they also had clinical research behind them, right? So, where the patient experience, the practitioner experience, and the research all meets is what we call truly evidence-based medicine.
00:08:11.140 --> 00:08:12.130 Frank R. Harrison: And…
00:08:12.890 --> 00:08:22.889 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Part of the reason so many people in healthcare, regardless of their discipline, some of them are medical doctors, some of them are out there like me,
00:08:23.050 --> 00:08:37.339 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: is that we're not exactly doing that in every way, right? We're being told what we can do by the insurance company, who's really just a third party holding all the money. So, we don't get best patient outcomes because it's not…
00:08:37.340 --> 00:08:45.710 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: the doctor and the patient having the conversation about the research. It's the insurance company going, no, that's an experimental procedure.
00:08:45.950 --> 00:08:46.500 Frank R. Harrison: Mmm.
00:08:46.500 --> 00:08:53.160 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Yeah, yeah, you know… Yeah, or this is not medically necessary. Okay, who looked it over? An accountant.
00:08:53.350 --> 00:09:08.549 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Okay, you know, so Charm City Integrative Health was a way to lean deeper into that, you know, out there, what can we do that may not be part of the main system, but is still not completely…
00:09:08.730 --> 00:09:27.350 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: out of, Americans specifically, and I should… if we're… if this goes international, I should say people from the States, their purview, because if they don't know it, or they don't see it on TV, or they're not familiar with it, there's always a learning curve. When I started doing acupuncture.
00:09:27.550 --> 00:09:31.699 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Oh my god, 25 years ago now.
00:09:31.950 --> 00:09:45.350 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: there was a lot of education. What the hell are you gonna do? You're gonna put needles in me, and I'm gonna feel better? Like, that didn't make sense. And when I had graduated, the statistics were 1 out of 10 Americans have had acupuncture.
00:09:45.970 --> 00:10:02.840 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Now, it's probably much more than that, and hopefully I contributed to some of that. But within that, I don't have a current number, but being that I've watched the growth of my practice, the growth of my field.
00:10:02.950 --> 00:10:12.229 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And the desire of people looking for better ways of doing things.
00:10:12.370 --> 00:10:22.540 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: I think this is really a testament to not only traditional therapies, right? We want to separate the crazy and the woo-woo from the actual clinical, but…
00:10:22.860 --> 00:10:30.520 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: I also think, and I… this is… this is what I love about looking back, saying I'm not a history buff, but looking back at some of these…
00:10:31.110 --> 00:10:56.090 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: health practice, we can look at them with fresh eyes, we can look at them through the lens of science and say, you know what? They might have described it in a way that we would never use, but there's a lot of traditional practices that have good clinical value. And that doesn't matter if it's a quierendera in Mexico who's rubbing herbs over your head and doing a cleansing, that doesn't matter if it's acupuncture, that doesn't
00:10:56.090 --> 00:11:02.289 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: It doesn't matter if it's massage. That doesn't matter if it's a traditional practice that some of us have never heard of.
00:11:02.430 --> 00:11:12.110 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: If it has an effect on our psyche, if it has an effect on our spiritual well-being, Matt and I on Irreverent Health would argue that that… that is healthcare.
00:11:12.340 --> 00:11:27.220 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: You know? So, there's all of these things that we can do that are outside of this congested, horrible system we have in the U.S, and I'm not anti-doctor, I'm not anti-vax, I'm not anti-Western medicine, I'm gonna say that very clearly.
00:11:27.220 --> 00:11:27.650 Frank R. Harrison: Right.
00:11:27.650 --> 00:11:35.070 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: I think this is a big arena, and I also feel like a lot of Western healthcare practitioners
00:11:35.270 --> 00:11:48.079 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: wouldn't be far off of my definition of health, right? They take into consideration all of this, but when they're given 8 minutes to talk to a patient and figure out something complex, what is bound to happen? They're gonna miss things.
00:11:48.610 --> 00:11:51.630 Frank R. Harrison: So, let me ask you, did you begin as a regular medical student?
00:11:51.630 --> 00:11:53.110 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: We went into it.
00:11:53.110 --> 00:11:55.299 Frank R. Harrison: Were you, like, totally in a different field?
00:11:55.300 --> 00:12:10.209 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: There was a joke when I was at Loyola for the first two years. I ran out of money there, by the way. Thanks, Loyola, you have a beautiful campus now, I think I funded some of that. I'll throw… but anyway, I don't have to use the F word to be…
00:12:10.260 --> 00:12:19.960 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: To be, stabby. But within that, there was a joke at Loyola, you might be a Loyola student if you're once pre-med.
00:12:20.210 --> 00:12:23.620 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: So, I left Loyola still as pre-med.
00:12:23.620 --> 00:12:46.770 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And, you know, I mean, you had a bunch of very privileged kids at Loyola who were all told, you're smart, you're gonna be a doctor, a lawyer, or a banker, you know, something like that, right? And I think there was a relatively big, push to get anybody that couldn't perform really well on tests, like.
00:12:46.770 --> 00:12:53.769 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: They don't like hearing about this, because… but it's true. Your sophomore year, they called you in, they said, okay, who has a 4-0?
00:12:54.310 --> 00:12:57.830 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: All the, all the pre-med students, they go, you guys can apply to vet school.
00:12:58.460 --> 00:12:59.639 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: You got a 3…
00:12:59.640 --> 00:13:01.629 Frank R. Harrison: Like, 3-9, you couldn't apply to med school?
00:13:01.630 --> 00:13:05.020 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: They… no, you couldn't apply to veterinary school, they kind of broke it down, like.
00:13:05.020 --> 00:13:05.420 Frank R. Harrison: Once they got.
00:13:05.420 --> 00:13:14.450 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: the 3.5, they're like, I don't know, you want to be a chiropractor or something? They touted such a high rate of acceptance into medical school
00:13:14.570 --> 00:13:33.689 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: that they would not let you apply. Like, they discouraged it. They can't stop you from doing it. And it doesn't mean if you had a 375 and everything else was amazing that you wouldn't get in. It's just they didn't want to screw up their numbers. So, I ran out of money, I ended up going home. I was at, NYIT.
00:13:33.690 --> 00:13:34.929 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: which stands for Next Year.
00:13:34.930 --> 00:13:35.310 Frank R. Harrison: American…
00:13:35.310 --> 00:13:35.780 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Transferring.
00:13:35.780 --> 00:13:38.169 Frank R. Harrison: technology. I'm sorry, say that again?
00:13:38.170 --> 00:13:51.130 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: year I'm transferring, I saw carved on a desk. But it was associated with NICOM, New York College of Osteopathic Medicine, and the idea was, you're just gonna be a DO. Doesn't matter, no one knows the difference.
00:13:51.370 --> 00:13:54.350 Frank R. Harrison: And I got a postcard in the mail, Frank.
00:13:54.450 --> 00:13:58.009 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: From an acupuncture school. For an open house.
00:13:58.300 --> 00:13:59.140 Frank R. Harrison: Nice.
00:13:59.140 --> 00:14:03.439 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And I went, what am I doing at this school? And immediately transferred.
00:14:04.790 --> 00:14:13.979 Frank R. Harrison: You know, this is so funny, and now we're about to take our first break. I have a similar story to relate to. I think we'll start the next segment with that, but…
00:14:14.110 --> 00:14:18.320 Frank R. Harrison: I… you know what I'm… you know what I'm taking away from your experience with Loyola, and then
00:14:18.700 --> 00:14:23.460 Frank R. Harrison: postcard you receive, that a lot of people who say they want to be a doctor.
00:14:24.190 --> 00:14:27.229 Frank R. Harrison: A lot of them end up transferring to become a lawyer, an engineer.
00:14:27.230 --> 00:14:28.590 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Anyway, yeah.
00:14:28.590 --> 00:14:39.960 Frank R. Harrison: But the ones that don't plan on it end up defaulting in that direction somehow. I don't know if it's because of their own personal ailments, or if they become caregivers, or if
00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:51.219 Frank R. Harrison: maybe when we were all under COVID, a lot of people wanted to apply to nursing school, or because of the essential workers. You know, I think that life itself really determines one's fate if they enter the healthcare.
00:14:51.220 --> 00:14:59.049 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: There… there was definitely a lot of serendipity. That story could be an hour-long episode in itself. I gave you the two highlights there.
00:14:59.050 --> 00:15:01.900 Frank R. Harrison: Yes, that would be called the real Grey's Anatomy.
00:15:02.660 --> 00:15:09.620 Frank R. Harrison: Alright, that being said, everyone, please stay tuned right here as we are talking about…
00:15:09.830 --> 00:15:19.969 Frank R. Harrison: Integrative medicine is a form of disruption, and when we come back, I'll share a little bit about my story in healthcare, but more importantly, we're going to learn about your podcast, Irreverent Health.
00:15:20.150 --> 00:15:22.920 Frank R. Harrison: Alright, everybody, please stay tuned, we'll be back in a few.
00:17:04.750 --> 00:17:22.980 Frank R. Harrison: Hey everybody, and welcome back. So, Tom's story about how the way he fell into acupuncture mimics a similar situation with regards to myself and caregiving. Now, I went to, a business school, Fordham Gabelli School of Business, got my MBA in 2002,
00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:29.009 Frank R. Harrison: My undergraduate degree was at NYU Stern, where I also was focused on banking, and I was focused…
00:17:29.020 --> 00:17:44.339 Frank R. Harrison: on, selling insurance, and I was focused on all the very things that were giving me nothing but epileptic seizures. So, I ended up leaving those gladly, and ended up being a DJ and a promoter, and worked for Sony Music for 10 years. But…
00:17:44.610 --> 00:17:53.079 Frank R. Harrison: Music industry does involve, if you're dealing with the right people, I might add, does involve some form of building your baby's brain.
00:17:53.160 --> 00:18:06.839 Frank R. Harrison: of neurology, of feeling the sensory motor skills working effectively based on a ballad you're hearing, or a rock song, or whatever it is. I always knew deep down inside that I had the love of psychology.
00:18:06.950 --> 00:18:22.229 Frank R. Harrison: That being said, when I left Sony Music, I ended up going back for my Master's in neuropsychology, and did my work with NYU Langone to do my thesis on the relationship between epilepsy and depression. So…
00:18:22.230 --> 00:18:29.920 Frank R. Harrison: All of a sudden, the marketing genius in me, well, was provoked to create a business that I call MedCash.
00:18:29.970 --> 00:18:45.900 Frank R. Harrison: Now, unfortunately, at that time, MedCash could not sustain itself, because my seizures were coming fast and furious, and not to mention, we didn't have certain technologies that we do today, that we do have today, and the biggest thing of it all was that
00:18:46.200 --> 00:19:00.929 Frank R. Harrison: there was an opportunity to try to determine if cannabis could be funded, and not all states had legal cannabis. So, it was the birth of something that remains dormant to this day. However…
00:19:01.070 --> 00:19:10.639 Frank R. Harrison: I then met Sam Leibowitz, joined TalkRadio.nyc, and launched Frank About Epilepsy, rebranded as Frank About Health.
00:19:10.790 --> 00:19:21.240 Frank R. Harrison: And, when I came back during COVID, all of a sudden, I've evolved into becoming a healthcare advocate and caregiver for my father. So.
00:19:21.500 --> 00:19:36.270 Frank R. Harrison: That is the organized, structural timeline of how I fell into it. But I think, just like when you had approached other topics at Loyola, or even as I was approaching other industries.
00:19:36.380 --> 00:19:45.129 Frank R. Harrison: There was an intrinsic motivation to get involved in that kind of work because it did something for my mental health, maybe?
00:19:45.130 --> 00:19:58.819 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Yeah, yeah, you know, for me, Loyola required philosophy, right? So, here I am in a Chinese philosophy class, and we were talking about Taoism, and Buddhism, and Confucianism, and
00:19:58.840 --> 00:20:15.369 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Taoism made a lot of sense to me. It's all about balance, you know? And that's, like, core principles that acupuncture and East Asian medicine are built off of. And then I took a Tai Chi class. It wasn't part of the Loyola training. It was, like, one of these things you could do as a club thing after school.
00:20:15.370 --> 00:20:35.060 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And it made so much sense, and even one of my favorite teachers was a GI surgeon. He was teaching me vertebrate morphology, that's everything from starfish to human beings, everything in between. And he said something like, I spend 8 hours
00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:49.459 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: to prepare a 45-minute class for you guys, and it was the roughest class I've ever taken. I have a doctorate. This was the roughest class I've ever taken, and the man met with me.
00:20:49.590 --> 00:21:00.549 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: he didn't have office hours because he was adjunct. He shows up on a Sunday, we're hanging out, he just came from a yoga class. The guy, brilliant and ADHD as all hell.
00:21:01.040 --> 00:21:13.270 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: We sat there, talked for 3 hours. He was an amazing man, I don't know if he's still around anymore. And he said to me, you know, he was just telling me stories, and he goes.
00:21:13.560 --> 00:21:19.020 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: When I first got to surgical rounds, and they put the human heart in my hand, I passed out.
00:21:19.450 --> 00:21:36.500 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: I believe that was the moment where I'm like, yeah, this is not for me. I believe that's where I was like, there's gotta be something else I can do in healthcare that doesn't involve the inside of people being outside.
00:21:36.860 --> 00:21:42.050 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: That was a key, key moment, for me. And,
00:21:42.220 --> 00:21:52.009 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: you know, looking around and finding different things, I was even realizing that I was trying to go pre-med because I was leaning towards this and thought I needed…
00:21:52.360 --> 00:21:58.999 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: an MD to be an acupuncturist, which in some countries you need, but certainly not here.
00:21:59.350 --> 00:22:16.079 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And it was like, it was this… like, I think I used the word serendipity before the break. It was… I couldn't have done anything else. This is where the flow was taking me. And, you know, when I finally picked up my feet and went with the current, this has been a pretty amazing ride.
00:22:16.600 --> 00:22:20.250 Frank R. Harrison: So, when did Integrative Health, your podcast, come into play?
00:22:20.250 --> 00:22:23.540 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Oh, so Irreverent Health came in.
00:22:23.840 --> 00:22:39.499 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: as a byproduct of COVID, right? Here I am, a middle-aged man, my wife makes sourdough to this day, and I started a podcast, which I think were the options during COVID, right? Right. But Matt and I met at a business group.
00:22:39.730 --> 00:22:51.649 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: of all things, right? A guy named Joe McClinski is a brilliant man, and he… I'll say he collects people that he's fond of, right? And he puts you all in a room.
00:22:51.710 --> 00:23:04.910 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: So Matt and I started in this group together, and within 10 minutes, and we're with these big CEOs and everything, both of us look at each other, I'm like, I'm not supposed to be in this room, man. And he goes, I don't think I am either.
00:23:04.910 --> 00:23:13.530 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: as time was marching on, Matt and I kind of hit it off, and we'd be having these weird conversations in the back of the room. This is kind of when…
00:23:13.610 --> 00:23:18.140 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Before I will say biohacking got its kind of, like.
00:23:18.250 --> 00:23:22.949 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: tech bro kind of… can I say douchey? Is that too hard?
00:23:22.950 --> 00:23:23.710 Frank R. Harrison: That's cool.
00:23:23.710 --> 00:23:38.989 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: kind of, kind of, kind of attitude, right? Where it's like, look how cool I am, I take cold showers and, you know, don't eat this many… and we're like, yeah, it's called intermittent fasting, it's really, like, we were both fascinated with it, but
00:23:38.990 --> 00:23:46.250 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: We didn't know what to do, and we found out that a lot of people in the room would come over and just kind of hang out with us and listen to us talk.
00:23:46.420 --> 00:23:48.570 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And at one point,
00:23:48.740 --> 00:23:54.579 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Joe's, right-hand person, Eliza, was like, you guys should record this. Well, COVID hit.
00:23:54.690 --> 00:23:57.490 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And we found ourselves with ample time.
00:23:57.790 --> 00:24:10.949 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Shift Society switched to an online platform where we were in these small breakout groups, and sure enough, Matt and I were in two small breakout groups together, with a double PhD in psychology who told us we weren't normal.
00:24:11.100 --> 00:24:21.409 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: But he also was not normal, and he told us, these are the only people that do anything cool. So we liked that, we liked him. He wrote a book called Driven, his name,
00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:38.140 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Doug, Brackman, if you're, if you're interested. And then we, we spoke to a coach, a life coach, who Matt actually worked with for a year. I could only afford a month. But, who, who really kind of…
00:24:38.260 --> 00:24:43.689 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Pushed him into kind of something else and a change, and me looking at a bigger picture.
00:24:43.980 --> 00:24:49.969 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And the podcast kind of grew out of that, and believe it or not, we recorded 50 episodes before we even launched.
00:24:50.450 --> 00:25:00.659 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: We were… we were so worried, you know, I… we said this off the air earlier. Perfection is the enemy of progress, and that's where we were, and
00:25:00.860 --> 00:25:12.930 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Matt and I looked at each other, and we used an expression that ends with, get off the pot. See, I kept it clean there. And we finally threw up the first 50 episodes, and then we had a guest.
00:25:13.580 --> 00:25:32.459 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And we had this amazing conversation about growing mushrooms in a retrofitted storage container, a shipping container. And this whole business model, which is, like, completely environmentally friendly, they plop these down on farms, and Matt and I were like, wow, that…
00:25:32.470 --> 00:25:42.070 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: that felt different, right? And then, from then on, we've had… we've recorded 200 episodes now, we've had guests for the majority of them.
00:25:42.180 --> 00:25:46.659 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And we just want to explore how…
00:25:47.300 --> 00:26:06.180 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: how health looks, how far out there is health? I mean, look, you know, we have remote viewers on, we've had psychics on, and where does that all land? And we've made so many cool connections, even… you've probably seen this, the study on mice for…
00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:06.790 Frank R. Harrison: Pardon?
00:26:06.850 --> 00:26:11.190 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Psilocybin increasing their lifespan by 30%.
00:26:11.190 --> 00:26:11.600 Frank R. Harrison: Yes.
00:26:11.600 --> 00:26:20.000 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: I… we… on a previous guest, posted an article about it. I go, oh my god, I read that article, it was so amazing! And the lead…
00:26:20.060 --> 00:26:36.089 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: clinician on that article goes, thank you for supporting my work. And immediately, I'm like, Louise, you wrote this? Can you come on our show? Right? So these connections, right, these amazing conversations that I'm blessed to have.
00:26:36.140 --> 00:26:45.289 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Matt and I went from doing it once a week, we now have 3 slots a week, and we're… we're filming this in early November, we're booked into January.
00:26:45.790 --> 00:26:49.709 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: We have one slot left before January.
00:26:50.550 --> 00:26:57.169 Frank R. Harrison: So, at the same time, were you anticipating that it was going to have any kind of revenue impact for your practice?
00:26:57.170 --> 00:27:17.110 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Well, it still hasn't had much of a revenue practice. It's still… we're working on that. We want to do it ethically, we want to do it the right way, we want to provide value to the listeners, and we don't want to… one of the things we're not doing is chasing trends, right? We want to do things because we're genuinely interested in them, and we…
00:27:17.110 --> 00:27:19.529 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: love what we're talking about. We want to be…
00:27:19.530 --> 00:27:42.540 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: passionately curious about, or reverently curious, I believe is the quote on our website, but about all these topics, and how can we add value to people's lives. Now, people are listening, they're not all local to Baltimore, unfortunately, but it's all part of a universe. I've written books, you know, all these things come together and really
00:27:42.540 --> 00:27:43.680 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: fill out…
00:27:44.550 --> 00:27:54.170 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: you know, I really feel like I'm designing my life now. You know, pushing 50, and now I'm finally understanding that, like, oh, I get to take the wheel.
00:27:54.360 --> 00:27:55.280 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: You know…
00:27:56.300 --> 00:28:02.150 Frank R. Harrison: And that's how you came up with the name Irreverent Health, because you are being passionate and irreverent about what you're talking about.
00:28:02.150 --> 00:28:10.499 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Yeah, yeah, no… there's nothing really off the table. We've had a couple of guests that I would fundamentally disagree with.
00:28:10.800 --> 00:28:19.010 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: But, you know, we're, we're looking under every rock, we're looking up at the stars, you know, how could that not be fun?
00:28:19.560 --> 00:28:20.510 Frank R. Harrison: Awesome.
00:28:20.630 --> 00:28:25.010 Frank R. Harrison: You know, it's funny, I thought, by me being frank, my name.
00:28:25.350 --> 00:28:35.860 Frank R. Harrison: about health, I was coming up with a… the truth about what was a dark secret. The truth of the matter is, everyone was… was kind of, not lost, what's the right… misguided.
00:28:35.860 --> 00:28:37.210 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Yeah, yeah. And so…
00:28:37.210 --> 00:28:42.100 Frank R. Harrison: what I picked up from your story right now is that when you're building this community, by default.
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:46.579 Frank R. Harrison: You feel more momentum and more passion and more power towards.
00:28:46.580 --> 00:28:56.030 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You're telling me the secret sauce here is that when being in the healthcare industry, or advocating healthcare.
00:28:56.030 --> 00:29:01.280 Frank R. Harrison: The main focus all the time is building your tribe, building community.
00:29:01.280 --> 00:29:01.840 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Max?
00:29:01.840 --> 00:29:07.709 Frank R. Harrison: Why? The magic of COVID creating Zoom technology is the only way to live and learn and work.
00:29:07.930 --> 00:29:12.720 Frank R. Harrison: It was, by default, the only way that it could finally happen at faster speed.
00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:15.849 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: We had a horrible thing.
00:29:16.020 --> 00:29:21.760 Frank R. Harrison: Fundamentally shift how we do things, and in a lot of ways, it's better.
00:29:22.140 --> 00:29:35.980 Frank R. Harrison: Yeah, it's also pivoted to where we need to be. Yeah. We're about to take our second break. I could, I could literally, like, like our executive producer, Sam Leibowitz, would always say on his show, I could talk to you for hours. I literally can.
00:29:35.980 --> 00:29:44.729 Frank R. Harrison: You know, but that being said, let's go into the third break right after the next few minutes, so we'll stay tuned, and we'll see you in a bit.
00:31:24.260 --> 00:31:33.589 Frank R. Harrison: Hey everybody, and welcome back. So, even though I haven't seen any questions from our audience yet, I've come up with a few. First of all, on your podcast, Irreverent Health.
00:31:33.710 --> 00:31:35.740 Frank R. Harrison: Do you talk a lot about.
00:31:35.740 --> 00:31:37.870 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Eastern Medication.
00:31:37.870 --> 00:31:43.070 Frank R. Harrison: Eastern medicine and acupuncture, and stuff like that? Or is it purely
00:31:43.190 --> 00:31:46.660 Frank R. Harrison: Any healthcare topic whatsoever that's really on people's minds.
00:31:46.660 --> 00:32:11.650 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: It's funny, when you… the expression is, to a man with just a hammer, everything looks like a nail. But we've had so many conversations on where I'm like, yeah, that sounds like Eastern medicine to me, right? So, yes, we've talked specifically about acupuncture. We did that early on before we had guests, but it's so funny, right? We had, Daniel Tolson is becoming a close friend, and he does something called the
00:32:11.650 --> 00:32:15.210 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: alignment protocol, which is audio entrainment, right?
00:32:15.450 --> 00:32:17.050 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And…
00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:32.239 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: he was on, and I go, wow, that actually… you're saying Chinese medicine things. You're saying… and he goes, yeah, we have a TCM advisor, and now I'm on his board of advisors, because we're looking at things like that. So, yeah, I…
00:32:32.270 --> 00:32:44.410 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: It is so amazing to me that East Asian medicine, the principles that are in that are in, martial arts. They're in artwork, they're in music. It's not…
00:32:44.590 --> 00:32:54.710 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: it's one system, and then it's applied differently, right? So there's always balance, there's 5 elements, there's 8 polarities, there's yin and yang, and…
00:32:54.950 --> 00:33:12.410 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: you can't talk about something like NLP without me going, okay, yeah, that's Chinese medicine. Or hypnotism, or EFT, right? I mean, that's based off… tapping is based off of acupuncture points, right? So, the number of topics we get into…
00:33:13.040 --> 00:33:24.350 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: that immediately relate back to something that I would call home field. You know, I'm like, yeah, I get all of this. Why? You know, and it's because…
00:33:24.780 --> 00:33:28.720 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: It is such a broad subject, and it's…
00:33:29.080 --> 00:33:34.400 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Intuitively built to have the ability to hold other things in it.
00:33:34.630 --> 00:33:40.480 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Yes. So I… I love talking about it, I love the stories, I love…
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:57.370 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: the history, even though I'm not so versed in the history, I've said that 3 times now. But within that, you know, the language of it all is not poetic. It literally tells the story.
00:33:57.450 --> 00:34:07.220 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: of how things became to be. And we get to muse about that, we get to share it, we get to put our own mark on it, and I'm gonna say that, once again.
00:34:07.290 --> 00:34:22.729 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: as a middle-aged, straight, white, Italian-American, the expression out of China is, when drinking water, remember the source, so I always have to look back and make sure that I'm doing this the right way for people who came before me.
00:34:22.780 --> 00:34:32.400 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: But with that being said, we're allowed to make it our own, we're allowed to own it, we're allowed to share it with others. And,
00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:35.629 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: It can't not come out.
00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:40.289 Frank R. Harrison: This is something that resonates with me. I have sat on Frank About Health for now going on
00:34:40.659 --> 00:34:42.879 Frank R. Harrison: I think it's close to 160 episodes at the.
00:34:42.880 --> 00:34:43.270 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Great.
00:34:43.670 --> 00:34:54.000 Frank R. Harrison: The thing is, as I have said, own your healthcare. Do you think the fundamental problem with most people is that they think healthcare is outside of themselves?
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:54.479 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Oh, yeah.
00:34:54.480 --> 00:34:58.100 Frank R. Harrison: Apple or other systems are meant to take care of their health?
00:34:58.100 --> 00:35:09.649 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Well, I mean, we're coming at it, and I think Gen X is decidedly different than boomers, and then every generation after, that white lab coat doesn't mean too much anymore.
00:35:09.650 --> 00:35:26.229 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Right? That… I'm the doctor, I know best. No, this phone in my pocket knows better than both of us. Right? And once again, I will say, in doctor's defenses, garbage in, garbage out, so if you don't know what you're searching, you don't know how to use it, AI will tell you something.
00:35:26.230 --> 00:35:29.329 Frank R. Harrison: Now that being said.
00:35:29.390 --> 00:35:31.570 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: That kind of leveled the playing field.
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:32.500 Frank R. Harrison: Yes.
00:35:32.500 --> 00:35:51.739 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: We also have people that are now looking, what else can I do besides this? And I think this is a critical moment for us in the States, for healthcare, where we realize, and I think COVID was a big wake-up call. Frank, before things happened this year.
00:35:51.750 --> 00:36:06.919 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: After COVID, when we were allowed to reopen, first people back in my office, all Western practitioners, all the hospitals in Baltimore, doctors, nurses, why? They were watching people die every day. It was horrible for them. It was horrible for me to watch their suffering.
00:36:06.920 --> 00:36:07.300 Frank R. Harrison: Yes.
00:36:07.300 --> 00:36:10.770 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And they filled my practice pretty quickly.
00:36:10.890 --> 00:36:11.950 Frank R. Harrison: Now…
00:36:11.950 --> 00:36:19.320 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Once everybody was comfortable moving around, so we were still masked up, my practice nearly doubled.
00:36:19.630 --> 00:36:22.409 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Why? Because people realized
00:36:23.150 --> 00:36:46.409 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: they needed to take care of their health before they got to the point where they were sick, right? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. That was Benjamin Franklin. It was said better earlier on. You know, and there's 3 or 4 different versions of a story from China. The superior physician treats the spirit, the superior physician treats before the first signs.
00:36:46.410 --> 00:36:55.879 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: of disease. Now, you can't sell that, I can't… if you're feeling great, it's gonna be a hard, hard sell for me to get you to lay down on the table.
00:36:55.880 --> 00:37:08.240 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Right. But at the same time, we know that if we take steps in the right direction now, whatever disease that's way over there, hopefully we're going wide around, and we don't even ever get to see it.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:09.330 Frank R. Harrison: Yeah. Now…
00:37:10.180 --> 00:37:17.369 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Certainly, there have been plenty of obstacles, especially ratcheting up in the last year or so.
00:37:17.370 --> 00:37:19.070 Frank R. Harrison: For many of us.
00:37:19.260 --> 00:37:37.690 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And that includes, insurance premiums going up, and benefits being cut, and people getting laid off, and deductibles rising, and, you know, just general AI denying claims that definitely should be processed without any hesitation. So, you know, I think…
00:37:37.850 --> 00:37:54.590 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: we're all reframing that, collectively, as a, well, what am I gonna do to survive this? And it sucks that we have to use the word survive, but that's it. How… right? We never survive life, but we can certainly, if we want to get through this as best we can.
00:37:55.060 --> 00:38:10.880 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: how do we take better care of ourselves? And a lot of that comes down to how we take care of our community and those people around us. I used to say things like, you know, I want everyone to have healthcare for selfish reasons, right? Why? Because if you're not sick, I'm less likely to get sick, right?
00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:22.509 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: It's not rocket surgery, I can be as selfish as I want, but you all better have the best healthcare on the planet. You know? Yes, I want you all to go to the gym. Yes, I want you to have fresh food.
00:38:22.510 --> 00:38:23.310 Frank R. Harrison: Yes.
00:38:23.310 --> 00:38:23.770 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Yay!
00:38:23.770 --> 00:38:25.989 Frank R. Harrison: To be a caregiver, you almost have to be a Lucilante.
00:38:25.990 --> 00:38:34.600 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: You know, and it's like, no, you made me a far leftist. Okay. Sounds great.
00:38:34.600 --> 00:38:36.130 Frank R. Harrison: Don't look like me.
00:38:36.910 --> 00:38:41.599 Frank R. Harrison: Healthcare can be considered a centrist view, right?
00:38:41.600 --> 00:38:44.169 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: You would think, you would think…
00:38:44.170 --> 00:38:45.180 Frank R. Harrison: Okay.
00:38:45.180 --> 00:38:46.659 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: You would think. Why…
00:38:46.660 --> 00:38:47.669 Frank R. Harrison: Who says otherwise.
00:38:47.670 --> 00:38:52.149 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Well, I would definitely believe the system says otherwise.
00:38:52.150 --> 00:38:55.699 Frank R. Harrison: You know, even with me, trying to survive with my own…
00:38:55.700 --> 00:39:11.429 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: healthcare management, right? Oh, we went with a company for cost that was outside of the ACA. Oh, we have a religious exemption. What's the religious exemption? We don't cover birth control or mental health. Oh, those don't exist.
00:39:11.600 --> 00:39:23.329 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Right? Okay, I will gladly pony up money for my kid's birth control, or my wife's birth control, and we're gonna pay out of pocket for our social workers anyway. Why? No one takes insurance.
00:39:23.330 --> 00:39:36.590 Frank R. Harrison: Yeah, and meanwhile, when you actually offer that, like, I had to do it with my nutritionist recently, because my insurance is no longer covering her benefit, is I'm offering out of pocket, and there's still this resistance to receive money?
00:39:36.590 --> 00:39:37.250 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Yeah.
00:39:37.250 --> 00:39:39.320 Frank R. Harrison: They're so used to the insurance system.
00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:40.620 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: It is a…
00:39:40.620 --> 00:39:41.180 Frank R. Harrison: buddy.
00:39:41.730 --> 00:39:49.819 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: So, in that case, it's… it's very weird, and we offered to pay cash for something, and we were denied.
00:39:50.110 --> 00:39:52.339 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: We're like, yeah, no, we'll pay for it out of pocket, don't even run it.
00:39:52.340 --> 00:39:53.170 Frank R. Harrison: paying cash?
00:39:53.170 --> 00:40:06.449 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Well, it was one specific thing, and I don't want to get into family members' personal stuff there without their permission, but we were ready to hand over a large chunk of cash to get into this program.
00:40:06.990 --> 00:40:10.169 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And, they said, no, we only work with Blue Cross Blue Shield.
00:40:11.620 --> 00:40:14.829 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And I'm like, but I… I will give you what they give you.
00:40:15.890 --> 00:40:18.900 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: You don't have to do anything! You don't have to do paperwork!
00:40:19.600 --> 00:40:22.690 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: But, it was because it was a big hospital system.
00:40:22.830 --> 00:40:30.840 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And here's how it's contracted, and here's how… right? So, it's all… it's all dirty, and…
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:41.760 Frank R. Harrison: I will… you know, it's… it's not a secret that the healthcare workers are well aware of it, too. Yeah. Now, they're… they're kind of stuck in it in the same way. Well.
00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:44.030 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: If I don't do my job, I get fired.
00:40:44.570 --> 00:40:47.169 Frank R. Harrison: Or they don't answer your call because they're trying to save their job.
00:40:47.170 --> 00:40:47.840 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Yeah.
00:40:48.640 --> 00:41:03.770 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: There's so many things, and… like, I don't think it takes a genius to develop a better system than this. I think it takes a genius to build something this flawed. You know, where, like, it's intentional.
00:41:03.770 --> 00:41:08.659 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: I know, I hired a biller because I could no longer…
00:41:08.710 --> 00:41:17.009 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Sit on hold for 2 hours, waiting to get information about a bill, only to be told something that blatantly didn't make any sense.
00:41:17.010 --> 00:41:17.700 Frank R. Harrison: Right.
00:41:18.190 --> 00:41:22.960 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And the breaking point was me screaming at some poor woman.
00:41:23.490 --> 00:41:29.750 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Because… she told me… Contradictory information.
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:30.840 Frank R. Harrison: Mmm.
00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:35.600 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: In the same sentence, and her response was, I'm just reading off the screen.
00:41:37.300 --> 00:41:40.159 Frank R. Harrison: What she can say and what she can't say, and then she sends.
00:41:40.160 --> 00:41:50.919 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Well, she read what was on the screen, and it said, acupuncture benefits are covered at this level for this. The next sentence was, acupuncture benefits are not covered on this plan.
00:41:51.610 --> 00:42:06.179 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And I said, do you understand that you're telling me both they have benefits and they don't have benefits? It was like, in a Schrodinger's patient, you know? It's like, are they alive? Are they… or, you know, so, so…
00:42:06.190 --> 00:42:12.740 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: How… how, after 2 hours of me being on hold, do I not lose it on this poor woman?
00:42:12.740 --> 00:42:13.550 Frank R. Harrison: Yeah.
00:42:13.600 --> 00:42:22.089 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: I had, at the time, a social worker renting from me who came out to the front desk to ask me if I was okay.
00:42:22.310 --> 00:42:23.210 Frank R. Harrison: Huh.
00:42:23.210 --> 00:42:25.510 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Because I unloaded on her.
00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:26.930 Frank R. Harrison: Wow.
00:42:27.670 --> 00:42:33.240 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And I immediately hung up, and I called my current biller, I've been with her for… whew…
00:42:33.660 --> 00:42:35.820 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Since 2011 now.
00:42:35.820 --> 00:42:36.270 Frank R. Harrison: Right.
00:42:36.270 --> 00:42:41.899 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: and said, I can't do this anymore, or I'm going to burn down.
00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:43.530 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: a building.
00:42:43.870 --> 00:42:48.359 Frank R. Harrison: I thought you meant to say burn out, but now I know.
00:42:48.360 --> 00:42:51.299 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: No, no, no, no, I was gonna burn out, too.
00:42:51.300 --> 00:42:52.779 Frank R. Harrison: Yeah.
00:42:53.230 --> 00:42:56.150 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And she goes, yeah, that's not the first time we've heard this.
00:42:56.600 --> 00:43:00.539 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: You know, and she specializes in acupuncture billing.
00:43:00.770 --> 00:43:04.420 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: you know, I'm supposed to be calm and cool.
00:43:04.420 --> 00:43:10.189 Frank R. Harrison: Let me ask you, for 2026, is it most common that acupuncture will not be a covered benefit?
00:43:10.590 --> 00:43:13.500 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: So, it's mixed, and this is really state by state.
00:43:13.850 --> 00:43:14.400 Frank R. Harrison: Okay.
00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:34.929 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Unfortunately, and this is… this is state-level stuff. New York, so when I moved from New York to Maryland, my biller said, congratulations, you moved from one of the worst states to deal with to one of the second worst states to deal with. And I said, that can't be possible. What about states that don't cover acupuncture? She goes, at least you know where you stand there.
00:43:35.630 --> 00:43:52.410 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Right? Like, at least you know you're doing a cash practice, right? But with this, I've seen in the last few months, and we didn't talk about my Paisano, but within that.
00:43:52.410 --> 00:44:16.300 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: there seems to be some weird stuff happening where they're delaying longer than they ever had, and it's to the point where it's impacting my personal practice, where we're getting things that shouldn't be denied, denied for stupid reasons. We're watching our aging, so our 0 to 30 is normally our biggest number. We want that. They have 30 days to respond. Well, now our 30 to 60 is getting
00:44:16.300 --> 00:44:18.500 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Close to that 0 to 30.
00:44:18.500 --> 00:44:36.460 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And our 60 to 90 is getting about half of that. So now I have bills that I was owed months, I gotta pay my people, I have to pay my rent, I have to pay my expenses, and it doesn't hurt the insurance company. They're fine. They're holding onto the money.
00:44:37.160 --> 00:44:37.870 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Oh, yeah.
00:44:37.870 --> 00:44:38.779 Frank R. Harrison: fixing it.
00:44:38.780 --> 00:44:51.459 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: They're not releasing it, or they're using really weak, denial reasons, which are like, hey, we got two codes for low back pain. The one you've been using for 10 years since the last time we did this, we're not using that anymore.
00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:58.700 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: So now you gotta resubmit with another low back pain code. Okay, cool. Oh, now we have another 30 days before we have to pay you.
00:44:59.250 --> 00:45:03.769 Frank R. Harrison: So would it be safe to say they're doing this because of the changes that have happened with the big, beautiful bill?
00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:23.019 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: I believe it's all intentional. Now, whether it's tied to the big, beautiful bill, or whether it's just we're seeing the… what I hope is not too painful for people, I know a lot of people will suffer with this, but, you know, the eventual greed consuming itself.
00:45:23.470 --> 00:45:36.180 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: You know, I hope that happens sooner rather than later, so less people have to suffer. But this is… you can increase somebody's premium by…
00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:40.619 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: 300%, and expect them to have insurance, right?
00:45:40.620 --> 00:45:44.840 Frank R. Harrison: Yeah, and the worst part is increase the premium and still take away the benefit, so…
00:45:45.060 --> 00:45:56.149 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: You're paying for nothing, right? And I'm seeing people talk about, look, just put it in savings. Well, that's fine unless you have a catastrophic event.
00:45:56.270 --> 00:46:09.519 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: or you have some long-term chronic illness, right? You're rolling dice there, too. It's not… it's not a good decision either way. So people that have the ways and means that can put money away every month.
00:46:09.750 --> 00:46:24.199 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: and they drop insurance, yeah, they're risking some stuff, because you don't know if that lump's gonna come back and mean something else. You don't know if that guy's gonna jump the curb and hit ya. You know, it's a very scary place to be.
00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:27.400 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And I… God, I wanted a message of hope here.
00:46:27.400 --> 00:46:39.379 Frank R. Harrison: No, no, no, you actually… you actually brought it back as… you brought us back to Earth, we had to take our final break, but I want to definitely spend the remaining time we have together wrapping up all these talking points that I've learned.
00:46:39.770 --> 00:46:46.509 Frank R. Harrison: probably add some additional questions that I've had along the way, but also promote the future for both of us, essentially.
00:46:46.510 --> 00:46:47.469 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Yes, you got it.
00:46:47.470 --> 00:47:04.320 Frank R. Harrison: Because at this point, like we've been saying throughout the last 45 minutes, with the way the country has mismanaged our healthcare system, and an ongoing government shutdown, all of us have to take charge. And whatever, with limited resources or no resources.
00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:13.090 Frank R. Harrison: or whatever else we need to apply towards, we all have to take charge going forward. Alright, everybody, we're going to break. We'll see you in a few.
00:48:44.740 --> 00:48:51.599 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Okay, I think we went a little bit over, so I'm just gonna read to you off the cuff everything I was gonna say.
00:48:51.600 --> 00:48:53.930 Frank R. Harrison: So I can get it out there. Do it.
00:48:53.930 --> 00:48:55.250 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Firehose it.
00:48:55.250 --> 00:49:02.990 Frank R. Harrison: Yeah, exactly, but at the same time, they're comments as well as some questions, but if they're answered or not, that's fine, it's just an excuse to have you come back, because.
00:49:02.990 --> 00:49:04.509 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Oh, well, thank you, I'd love to.
00:49:04.510 --> 00:49:16.090 Frank R. Harrison: I would definitely want you back here. That being said, one of the things I was gonna ask you is, what episodes of Irreverent Health best reflect the future of healthcare? Just name one or two.
00:49:16.700 --> 00:49:24.079 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Okay, so, I would say our Luis Hecker, where psychedelics and longevity Collide.
00:49:24.410 --> 00:49:40.149 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: We talk a lot about AI, so I have a hard time pulling one out there, but I do think AI is gonna revolutionize healthcare. And then, look, we got some that haven't come out yet that are on human consciousness.
00:49:40.500 --> 00:49:55.629 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And I am super excited. We have some people from the Institute of Noetic Science, it's really out there. It used to get lumped into parapsychology, but the president of that organization just did a lecture at Harvard Medical School.
00:49:55.700 --> 00:50:07.829 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: So, I think those are the things that are coming out, what it really means to be human, and how to best address us in an N equals 1 kind of environment, where it's really customized to us.
00:50:08.220 --> 00:50:13.709 Frank R. Harrison: Awesome. Now, the whole being model, mental, emotional, physical, and digital, which you did touch.
00:50:13.710 --> 00:50:15.360 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Digital, yeah.
00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:27.249 Frank R. Harrison: I mean, the thing is, is that I've been trying to talk about, we called it integrative medicine, but I think it's beyond that, from everything we've been speaking about.
00:50:27.280 --> 00:50:30.990 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: I mean, the whole being model sounds more, current.
00:50:31.290 --> 00:50:39.710 Frank R. Harrison: Because integrative medicine still sounds like they're missing parts of the individual patient's needs, whether they're emotional or otherwise.
00:50:39.710 --> 00:50:44.290 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Well, you know, it's interesting. I think that's the best term we have, right? I think wellness…
00:50:44.290 --> 00:51:08.609 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: became reduced to something like, like spa therapy, or, you know, like, hey, I left work early, that's wellness, you know? And it's not… I'm not taking away from spas, I love spas. And I'm not taking away from leaving work early. Strongly suggest everybody do that, too. But within that, this idea that you're hitting all levels from the spiritual down
00:51:08.610 --> 00:51:14.890 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Right? I… my favorite scroll that's hanging in my… my office says.
00:51:14.890 --> 00:51:19.020 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: It literally translates out of Japanese to half doctor, half shaman.
00:51:19.020 --> 00:51:36.370 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: And when we translate it into English, when seeking advice from our problems, seek both the advice of a doctor and a shaman, right? This is both worlds, both brains, right? This is your physical body, this is your spiritual being, how do we cover all of that? And I think integrative medicine was probably the best
00:51:37.100 --> 00:51:38.130 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: use…
00:51:38.350 --> 00:51:44.989 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: the best word we had to use at the time, but I agree, there's something that looks at you as a whole person
00:51:45.090 --> 00:51:52.999 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: functioning in society, which is better, right? I think where the biohackers got it wrong, whereas if I'm okay.
00:51:53.320 --> 00:52:00.050 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Who the hell else matters? You know, and this is like, well, your community's not healthy, and you're not a healthy member of your community.
00:52:00.180 --> 00:52:12.489 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Right? That all plays into this, and you can extend that community into digital. I mean, we're a couple hundred miles away right now, and we're having this great conversation, right? So this is community, too.
00:52:13.020 --> 00:52:17.929 Frank R. Harrison: And you know, it's funny, I'm saying, how can I get my way over to see you for acupuncture? I miss it.
00:52:17.930 --> 00:52:23.689 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Oh, I got friends up there, you can hit me up offline, and I'll find somebody in Manhattan for you if you want, yeah.
00:52:23.690 --> 00:52:29.920 Frank R. Harrison: Awesome, awesome. But at the same time, the final comment…
00:52:30.200 --> 00:52:36.850 Frank R. Harrison: is that you seem to have a vision of medicine as education. Can you elaborate more on that?
00:52:36.850 --> 00:52:57.129 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Well, I mean, oh god, this is a direct line. Dr. Doscere means to teach, right? So, you know, the idea for me, and as I'm transforming after 25 years in the field, is what can I do to pass this into people's hands, right? I don't want to necessarily lecture to other acupuncturists, I'm not opposed to that.
00:52:57.130 --> 00:53:06.710 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: But there's so much that we could be doing at home before we get sick. There's so much we could be doing to just live in a healthier, better society and environment
00:53:06.710 --> 00:53:12.520 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: for ourselves, and how can I share that, and how can I bring some of that ancient wisdom forward
00:53:12.530 --> 00:53:20.670 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Right. And put it back into people's hands and say, hey, we threw the baby out with the bathwater here. Here it is. You know, this is good stuff.
00:53:21.320 --> 00:53:22.300 Frank R. Harrison: Incredible.
00:53:22.450 --> 00:53:24.930 Frank R. Harrison: Incredible. I mean, if anything.
00:53:25.080 --> 00:53:33.960 Frank R. Harrison: Maybe that's why we're always… for example, in doing podcasts, we're always having return guests or expanded topics from what we previously.
00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:34.530 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: It is done.
00:53:34.530 --> 00:53:42.329 Frank R. Harrison: Because when it comes to your healthcare, we know there is a… there's an end, a finite time, you know, from birth to death.
00:53:42.520 --> 00:53:47.390 Frank R. Harrison: But it is the quality of life that has to be managed in that timeline, that…
00:53:47.520 --> 00:53:55.030 Frank R. Harrison: Most people are not… they're just sitting back like a passenger in their life, not… not taking ownership, and wondering why.
00:53:55.090 --> 00:54:08.930 Frank R. Harrison: that they're in that mess, or confusion, or conundrum, or whatever the right situation may be. What do you think, especially going forward with all the changes that have been done in Congress and whatever, will be the best way that any individual can own their healthcare?
00:54:09.100 --> 00:54:11.250 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: You know, I…
00:54:11.250 --> 00:54:11.960 Frank R. Harrison: Financially.
00:54:11.960 --> 00:54:21.059 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: So, I think this is… this is where you get educated on stuff, right? I hate the term, I did my own research.
00:54:21.280 --> 00:54:26.610 Frank R. Harrison: Because unless you can show me peer-reviewed studies and what they mean, because reading them is…
00:54:26.910 --> 00:54:41.270 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Pain in the ass. I do it quite often. It's a pain in the ass. But within that, you know, get yourself educated. Put together a team of people that you can depend on. Don't rely on any one thing.
00:54:41.390 --> 00:54:54.900 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: But the more you can do before you need to go to the doctor is gonna have the best outcome for you. And that's gonna lower costs for you, that's gonna lower time that you're at the doctor, and that's gonna give you a longer, healthier life. Those always pay out in dividends.
00:54:55.620 --> 00:54:56.640 Frank R. Harrison: Incredible.
00:54:56.970 --> 00:55:02.279 Frank R. Harrison: Oh, wow. Again, 3 minutes before ending, and I… and I think I have some other comments.
00:55:02.450 --> 00:55:05.130 Frank R. Harrison: Well, you know, either way.
00:55:05.500 --> 00:55:08.340 Frank R. Harrison: I know that I'm gonna be a guest on your podcast.
00:55:08.340 --> 00:55:09.100 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Yes!
00:55:09.100 --> 00:55:10.200 Frank R. Harrison: in December.
00:55:10.200 --> 00:55:10.620 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Yes!
00:55:10.620 --> 00:55:12.220 Frank R. Harrison: Everyone know that right now?
00:55:12.530 --> 00:55:31.980 Frank R. Harrison: At the same time, thanks to, Siobhan Larisse, who's been on the show, yourself included, and our next guest next Thursday, which is Dr. Dale Atkins, who is a child developmental psychologist, who has been very helpful to me in helping me find the right way to displace my parents and myself.
00:55:32.040 --> 00:55:37.719 Frank R. Harrison: During a paint job, which really wasn't needed, but at the same time, for psychological reasons, was done.
00:55:38.070 --> 00:55:54.439 Frank R. Harrison: At the same time, she was telling me, breathe deeply, relax, go with the flow, and watch this, you know, move towards your next chapter. That being said, talk about karma, which we have been. You mentioned, we've been talking medicine as education, right? I happen to be in a Hilton hotel.
00:55:54.630 --> 00:55:56.880 Frank R. Harrison: That's right next to Cornell Tech.
00:55:56.880 --> 00:55:59.069 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: That's due to the guy in healthcare.
00:55:59.240 --> 00:55:59.850 Frank R. Harrison: And Roosevelt.
00:55:59.850 --> 00:56:01.719 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: That's amazing. How about that?
00:56:01.720 --> 00:56:03.850 Frank R. Harrison: There's a reason why I was sent here.
00:56:03.970 --> 00:56:11.390 Frank R. Harrison: That's to see a preview of what resources that I've been presented with that I can determine if I want to do something about it or not.
00:56:11.650 --> 00:56:23.769 Frank R. Harrison: Again, that makes us both voices of disruption, you know, and I wanted to thank you for being on… I think this is now episode, 5 or 6 of my campaign.
00:56:23.770 --> 00:56:24.550 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Awesome.
00:56:24.550 --> 00:56:32.299 Frank R. Harrison: Thanks to you, this campaign is gonna go fast and furious, especially in December. And, I think I just want to…
00:56:32.380 --> 00:56:51.209 Frank R. Harrison: Just say to everybody, please stay tuned for other shows right here on talkradio.nyc, and remember, I gave you my Zoom link, just contact me in about 5 minutes so we can follow up, and thanks again, Tom, for being here, and I look forward to interviewing some of the other people that you would like…
00:56:51.210 --> 00:56:53.940 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Put you in touch with, yeah. Yeah, you got it.
00:56:53.940 --> 00:57:00.389 Frank R. Harrison: You are definitely one member of my community taking action for secure health. That's what I'm calling it.
00:57:00.390 --> 00:57:01.659 Dr. Tom Ingegno, DACM: Oh, thank you.
00:57:01.660 --> 00:57:06.760 Frank R. Harrison: Alrighty. Thanks, Jesse, behind the scenes, and we'll be back next week. Take care.
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