[NEW EPISODE] Mastering the Presales-Sales

"🚨 Are your SEs treated like “Order Takers” instead of “Value Creators”?

In this episode of Making SEAMless Sales, John Care and Art Fromm address why so many sales teams struggle to become more strategic and consultative — skipping qualification or skimping on discovery, and wondering why they so often lose to Do Nothing Incorporated — and how SE leaders can stop the cycle for good.

💡 You’ll learn:

✅ The hidden cost of poor Sales–Presales handoffs.

✅ Frameworks that connect solutions to measurable business outcomes.

✅ How SE managers can turn client interactions into moments of business impact.

If you’re in Sales, Presales, or Sales Leadership — this episode will change how you think about SE/AE/AM collaboration, discovery, and closing with confidence."

➡️ In this episode of Making SEAMless Sales, we’re cutting straight to the heart of one of the biggest roadblocks in complex B2B sales — the breakdown between sales and presales. Host Art Fromm is joined by John Care, the globally respected author of Mastering Technical Sales, to uncover why so many teams still stumble over the same handoff issues that cost them deals, trust, and millions in lost opportunity.

➡️ Together, Art and John explore why top-performing organizations are redefining the SE’s role — not as a demo resource, but as a strategic value creator who connects technology to measurable business outcomes. They’ll reveal what happens when SEs and AEs operate in silos, show to fix it through clear frameworks and aligned discovery, and the tangible results that follow when both sides move in sync — faster deal cycles, stronger client trust, and higher win rates.

If you’ve ever felt pressured to be too “technical,” this episode is your playbook for turning collaboration into competitive advantage.

👉 John Care LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/johncare/

👉 Company: www.masteringtechnicalsales.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

📗 Making SEAMless Sales Book: www.teamsalesdevelopment.com/making-seamless-sales-book/

💻 Making SEAMless Sales Livecast/Recording/Podcast Page: www.teamsalesdevelopment.com/12-week-podcast-series-on-talkradio-nyc/

📝 Feel free to submit your questions and sales challenges to Art at www.teamsalesdevelopment.com/contact-tsd/

‍

Show Notes

Segment 1

In the Season 1 finale of The Making Seamless Sales Show, Art Fromm welcomes global pre-sales expert John Kerr, author of Mastering Technical Sales. Together, they explore how aligning sales engineers and account teams at the right moments can unlock millions in hidden revenue. Art also shares a heartfelt tribute to his late father, Paul Fromm—an Apollo program contributor—reflecting on his legacy and lessons in leadership and excellence.

Segment 2

In the second segment John shares insights on why sales engineers must move beyond the “dash to demo” and focus on discovery to create real value and trust with clients. He also reveals how strong collaboration between sales and pre-sales teams can dramatically boost deal success and prevent costly losses to “Do Nothing Incorporated.”

Segment 3

The third segment begins with Art and Jhon telling us how Sales and pre-sales alignment starts with mastering business value discovery—understanding customer pains, priorities, and outcomes before any demo begins. John then emphasizes the FAB framework (Features, Advantages, Benefits) to connect technology to real business impact in terms of time, people, and money. When sales and SEs build trust and focus on outcomes, everyone wins—customers, teams, and results.

Segment 4

In the heartfelt season finale of Making Seamless Sales, Art Fromm honors his late father, Paul Fromm — a brilliant engineer whose legacy includes helping create NASA’s lunar training vehicle and inspiring the iconic “Go Blue” chant at the University of Michigan. Art reflects on his father’s humility, faith, and lifelong dedication to learning, reminding us that one voice can truly make an impact. “

Transcript

00:00:32.800 --> 00:00:34.440 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Hello, everyone.

00:00:34.850 --> 00:00:45.559 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Welcome to the 12th and last episode of Season 1 of Making Seamless Sales Show. Whether watching live, listening to the replay.

00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:56.049 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: or any of our channels, I appreciate that you've taken that time, and I trust that you'll find it helpful. Please drop a note in the chat, and like, subscribe, and share with others who can benefit.

00:00:56.470 --> 00:01:07.370 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I'm coming to you live tonight from Mars, Pennsylvania, just north of Pittsburgh. The weather is definitely starting to turn cool. Fall is here. It has arrived.

00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:16.949 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Joining me today is John Kerr, Global Pre-Sales expert, speaker, and author of Mastering Technical Sales. We'll get to him after the first commercial break.

00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:32.709 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: He is the founder of Mastering Technical Sales, and has a book of the same name. And, by the way, in the show, I will probably refer to it as MTS, that's what it's known as, MTS, Mastering Technical Sales.

00:01:32.970 --> 00:01:34.710 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We will explore…

00:01:35.130 --> 00:01:54.120 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: how to ensure that SEEs, sales engineers, are pulled into a deal precisely when needed, not too early, not too late, thus ensuring alignment with sales for proper business discovery, and how that collaboration can unlock literally millions of dollars in hidden revenue potential.

00:01:54.790 --> 00:01:58.919 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Since this is the last show of this first season.

00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:13.929 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And today's a kind of a special day that I'll mention here in a moment. Instead of the usual Dear Artie segment that I had at the end of each episode, where I answered your sales questions in the form of, like, a Dear Abby.

00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:20.679 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I'm gonna do a special tribute to one of my heroes, mentors, and examples.

00:02:21.500 --> 00:02:27.129 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: my dad, Paul Fromm, who went to be with the Lord 15 years ago today.

00:02:27.420 --> 00:02:28.400 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So…

00:02:29.030 --> 00:02:48.099 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I'll touch on some of his contributions to the Apollo space program, insights from some of his handwritten notes, and a very special tie-in with his alma mater, University of Michigan. So, stay tuned for that and more, because there's definitely some lessons we can learn, and there's a lot of things that

00:02:48.140 --> 00:02:52.700 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I took from his example, so we'll get to that at the last segment.

00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:56.619 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And welcome to all the family and friends that are watching, too.

00:02:57.650 --> 00:03:03.500 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: For those of you who don't know, my name is Art Fromm, I'm the founder and president of Team Sales Development.

00:03:03.710 --> 00:03:12.170 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I'm focused on pre-sales and sales transformation, helping B2B sales teams increase revenue, win rate, and client satisfaction.

00:03:12.910 --> 00:03:21.269 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Through workshops, keynotes, this podcast, and my book of the same name, Making Seamless Sales.

00:03:21.590 --> 00:03:39.960 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I provide equitable and proven sales transformation frameworks and systems for pre-sales and sales teams. One client who tracked opportunities that used the program realized a 16-point increase in win rate from 58% to 74%,

00:03:40.160 --> 00:03:57.009 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: and a 22% increase in bookings the first two years compared to opportunities that didn't use the elements of the program. So my goal is to equip you and your sales teams to improve your results. Before we get into tonight's show.

00:03:57.390 --> 00:04:15.790 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: episode. A big thanks to last week's guest on episode 11, October 16th, Nikhil Sharma. I always say Sharma, I'm so sorry, Nikhil, it's Sharma. It just comes out naturally that way. We discussed how stalled opportunities value erosion over

00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:31.619 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And value erosion over the deal cycle, and losing to either a competitor or to status quo, all stem from one common issue, which is an incomplete understanding of why change matters to the business.

00:04:31.760 --> 00:04:40.890 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So Nikhil's value discovery map showed how sales teams can connect operational pains to business outcomes

00:04:40.930 --> 00:04:58.339 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: that drive executive decisions. The visual framework helps sales teams in three stakeholder levels. So, first of all, the why, which anchors the deal in strategic priorities and financial impact that matters to executives. Number two, the what.

00:04:58.430 --> 00:05:01.639 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Which identifies the key performance indicators.

00:05:02.180 --> 00:05:12.060 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: That the managers must deliver to the business. And number three, the how, which uncovers operational evidence that change will create measurable impact.

00:05:12.580 --> 00:05:22.489 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, the result enables buyers to articulate the clear message that they can confidently take upstream, internally, and de-risk the decision.

00:05:22.540 --> 00:05:30.750 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Therefore, building alignment, even when the sellers aren't in the room. And that's what we all want, is the buyer to be selling when we're not there.

00:05:30.750 --> 00:05:43.989 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So if you missed it, please go back, give it a listen, you'll come away with actionable strategies to transform your demos and close more deals. You can access that episode and all the other 11 episodes of Making Seamless Sales.

00:05:43.990 --> 00:05:52.489 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: as well as many more resources at teamsalesdevelopment.com on the Events and Articles tab.

00:05:52.810 --> 00:06:00.989 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Now, just a bit about tonight's special guest, John Kerr, who started Mastering Technical Sales Business in the year 2000.

00:06:02.350 --> 00:06:05.999 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I was introduced to John in 2011,

00:06:06.150 --> 00:06:08.600 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: by a mutual colleague, Tom King.

00:06:09.250 --> 00:06:26.099 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Tom and I had worked together since 2004, when he was at ASK Learning, which, as I told in an earlier episode, was the global learning company that recruited and hired me in 2005, and eventually they closed in 2008.

00:06:26.300 --> 00:06:31.150 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: That led to me forming my own company, and also.

00:06:31.250 --> 00:06:35.210 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Tom then went on to form Up to Speed.

00:06:35.460 --> 00:06:53.869 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: which John merged with in 2023, so there's a lot of interconnections with all of these different relations we have and all that. And ever since then, and, you know, since I've been working with John, I've been a facilitator and still am for Up2Speed as well, and delivering John's materials.

00:06:53.890 --> 00:07:00.799 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, interestingly enough, I found the original email where Tom introduced me to John as, quote.

00:07:00.880 --> 00:07:20.180 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the best facilitator I have come across for all things pre-sales in my 12 years at ASK Learning. So, it was very humbling to hear that from Tom. Now, strangely enough, and I'm not quite sure why, unfortunately, for some reason, I didn't respond to that initial introduction.

00:07:20.290 --> 00:07:32.659 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: But John and I eventually connected and started working together in 2013. So, I can't even believe that that was so many years ago. It just doesn't even make sense that it could be that long.

00:07:33.590 --> 00:07:52.020 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, I started to deliver the core MTS, Mastering Technical Sales, Business Value Discovery, and whiteboarding workshops, which are our mainstay of John's offerings. They were a very nice addition to the portfolio of offerings that I was also providing for my clients.

00:07:52.070 --> 00:07:54.110 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: In 2022,

00:07:54.190 --> 00:08:10.030 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I was honored that John asked me to help with the fourth edition of his seminal book, Mastering Technical Sales, which has been around for quite a long time. And, John can talk about that a little bit, I think, back to the early 2000s.

00:08:10.030 --> 00:08:21.359 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And, John asked me to contribute to and edit Chapter 14, which is about remote demos and presentations, which we were coming fresh off of, or even still in, I guess.

00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:25.860 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: from the pandemic, so there was a lot around that. So I was very honored to do that.

00:08:25.880 --> 00:08:39.359 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: By now, I've probably delivered, I don't know, hundreds of workshops, or maybe more than 100, let's just say, workshops for John, including Trusted Advisor, Executive Connection, Storytelling.

00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:46.780 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: and many more, many more workshops as well, so I'm so thankful for that opportunity.

00:08:46.850 --> 00:08:53.720 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Now, Similar to Steve Bistreitz, who was featured in Episode 2,

00:08:53.910 --> 00:09:05.640 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: and Peter Cohan, who is featured in Episode 9, John allowed me to use a couple of key concepts from his book and from the workshops in my book.

00:09:06.100 --> 00:09:13.559 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And I just want to highlight those really quickly. We won't have time to talk about them in detail, but they're a great backdrop to what we're going to discuss.

00:09:13.660 --> 00:09:18.899 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: First of all is a survey that we like to share in the workshops that John did.

00:09:19.070 --> 00:09:29.559 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: which he conducted showing that SEs, sales engineers, pre-sales, are trusted almost twice as much as their sales counterparts.

00:09:29.740 --> 00:09:35.779 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And the way that that works into pre-sales, having such a voice and being such an asset.

00:09:35.900 --> 00:09:50.580 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: to the rest of the sales team, and particularly to the AE or AM, as I like to refer to them, because it makes for the nice, seamless acronym, but how they are so helpful and important there. And then that's where this idea of the gap

00:09:50.640 --> 00:09:55.929 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Comes into play, because if there's a gap, that's not working seamlessly, so we'll talk about that.

00:09:56.240 --> 00:10:05.480 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And then secondly, one of the things that we cover in John's Business Value Discovery Workshop is a really nice chart

00:10:05.800 --> 00:10:13.840 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: which I think goes back to some others, including Spin Selling and some others, that shows the buyer engagement cycle

00:10:13.940 --> 00:10:16.010 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: With the ebb and flow.

00:10:16.180 --> 00:10:25.319 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: throughout the buyer engagement of four key buyer concerns. Specifically, the needs that they have.

00:10:25.900 --> 00:10:30.259 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The solution, emphasis, or focus on a solution.

00:10:30.470 --> 00:10:34.010 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Their focus or concern about cost.

00:10:34.170 --> 00:10:50.499 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And then fourth, the focus and concern about risk. And I've taken that with John's permission and both of those concepts, and I've included them in the book and gone into great detail, especially about that buyer engagement life cycle, because I put into that

00:10:50.540 --> 00:10:56.170 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: What is the business decision maker doing during that? What's the technical decision maker doing during that?

00:10:56.320 --> 00:10:59.249 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: What are we doing as a sales team?

00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:10.360 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: from an account management perspective, and a pre-sales or SE perspective, so all that is there. So John has allowed me to put that into the book, into,

00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:20.070 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: into my Making Seamless Sales book, and John also graciously wrote a forward for the book, which emphasizes the importance of listening.

00:11:20.170 --> 00:11:26.170 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Listening to the prospect, which is a topic that we'll dig into much more deeply momentarily.

00:11:26.660 --> 00:11:41.069 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, for all of this, and for our long-time relationship, and all the opportunities that we've had working together, I'm extremely grateful, and it's really an honor to have John on, which we'll do just shortly after the commercial here.

00:11:41.170 --> 00:11:48.089 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, with this as a backdrop today, what John and I will explore is why sales engineers

00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:53.499 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Often are still being treated sort of like order takers instead of value creators.

00:11:53.650 --> 00:12:07.849 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And more importantly, what SE management, and this is a whole area that John concentrates on, is sales engineering or pre-sales management, what they can do to break that cycle and turn every demo and technical proof

00:12:07.860 --> 00:12:14.890 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Into a true business conversation, which is really, frankly, all that matters to the prospect or the buyer.

00:12:15.220 --> 00:12:22.890 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, after a brief break, John and I are going to dig into why this disconnect still exists.

00:12:23.280 --> 00:12:42.460 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: what it's really costing companies, and the practical frameworks that can help your teams create measurable business value, not just technical wins. So, let's go ahead, if we can go to the break, we will be back in just a couple of minutes, and we'll

00:12:42.730 --> 00:12:48.870 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: talk with John Kerr of Mastering Technical Sales. So, we'll be right back.

00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:46.919 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Welcome back, and I would like to welcome to the show and introduce my friend and colleague, John Kerr. So, John, you heard a little bit of that background there, but

00:14:46.920 --> 00:14:58.310 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Let me just say real quick to introduce you a little bit, a little bit further, John is the Chief Content Officer of Up to Speed and founder of Making, sorry, Mastering Technical Sales.

00:14:58.530 --> 00:15:12.069 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: A global leader in professional sales development for sales engineers through training, consulting, and keynote programs, and building on his best-selling book, Mastering Technical Sales, the Sales Engineer's Handbook, which is this one right here.

00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:30.670 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: John has trained over 100,000 professionals and is published widely across major media and learning platforms. A former executive of Oracle, HP, and other major firms, he now advises startups and academic programs while balancing life between Longboat Key, Florida, which is lovely.

00:15:30.670 --> 00:15:36.279 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: and Philadelphia, so… John, welcome to the Making Seamless Sales show.

00:15:36.750 --> 00:15:43.220 John Care: Excellent. Really appreciate being on here and, helping you bring the season to a close, right? It's exciting.

00:15:43.220 --> 00:15:48.609 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: That's right, exactly, yep. I'm glad to have you on. So,

00:15:48.950 --> 00:16:01.190 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: If you can briefly fill us in a little bit on any of the pieces, maybe including when the book first came out, and your current focus, you know, as far as how you got to where you are now.

00:16:01.520 --> 00:16:08.130 John Care: Wow. Well, the genesis of the book was way back in 1999, believe it or not.

00:16:08.150 --> 00:16:22.890 John Care: And I just got frustrated because I couldn't find anybody who could train my engineers. So I sat down with Aaron Bolig, my co-author at the time. We came up with the idea to create a book that was a handbook for sales engineers, and the first edition was published in 2001.

00:16:22.910 --> 00:16:26.870 John Care: And it's been an awesome journey since then, filled with, you know.

00:16:26.870 --> 00:16:51.170 John Care: great, great folks like yourself. Right now, I am really the front man for the company for up-to-speed Martian technical sales. So I do a lot of interviews like this, keynote speeches, sales kickoffs, things like that. Not quite so much of the everyday training anymore. Plus, I'm working on updating the books, and I'm working on a murder mystery, so that is my

00:16:51.170 --> 00:16:52.800 John Care: big,

00:16:52.800 --> 00:16:59.129 John Care: projects I'm working on right now when I'm not traveling, and of course, the hero is a sales engineer, so there you go.

00:16:59.620 --> 00:17:01.689 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: That's not a spoiler, though.

00:17:01.690 --> 00:17:03.889 John Care: No, no, it's not.

00:17:03.890 --> 00:17:20.790 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: All right, and you, you mentioned, when… when we talked, whatever day that was, yesterday or whatever, the week's just, you know, blend by here, about the fact that you're re… re-releasing the, the trusted engine. Tell me about what you're re-releasing shortly.

00:17:20.790 --> 00:17:39.979 John Care: Sure. So, one of the books that came out a while back was the Trusted Advisor Sales Engineer. And, you know, everyone tells you, you've got to become a trusted advisor to your clients. No one ever tells you how, and no one ever tells you how you can measure it. Like, how do you know if you're actually trusted, and how can you improve that trust?

00:17:39.980 --> 00:18:01.090 John Care: So the first version of this came out, gosh, like, 8, 9 years ago. The great benefit about publishing on the Amazon Kindle platform is you can do incremental updates, which I've been doing over the years, but I thought it was time for a more significant update. So we've updated everything in here, got 2025 data, plus added a new chapter on trust.

00:18:01.090 --> 00:18:07.089 John Care: AI and the sales engineer, which is a topic we'll get into, I suspect, within the next 10 or 15 minutes.

00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:26.789 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: All right, sounds good. So, let's get into it, starting with the challenge, which, sales engineers being sort of order takers instead of value creators, and I know one of the most profound things that we cover in the MTS workshops is the expression, your solution has no inherent value.

00:18:26.930 --> 00:18:44.890 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yet studies continue to show that too many sales engineers get pulled into demos without proper qualification or discovery, and therefore losing to your favorite phrase, which I love, is, do nothing incorporated. So, why does this disconnect continue?

00:18:45.280 --> 00:18:53.110 John Care: oh, you know, if we could only solve that problem, life would be so much easier for, for everybody, I think. So… so I'm a little bit of a,

00:18:53.260 --> 00:19:05.990 John Care: kind of counterculture person on this, in terms of… the reason why it happens is that there's this thing, I call it the dash to demo, right? And everybody wants to dash to demo, show the product, get in front of the customer.

00:19:05.990 --> 00:19:23.419 John Care: And a lot of times, we demo way too early in the sales cycle and mess up an opportunity to progress the deal. So, you know, one of my basic beliefs is that, you know, demos are nice, and a lot of companies focus just on demo training, but actually what's important is discovery up front.

00:19:23.420 --> 00:19:35.219 John Care: And, you know, there's no good being a perfect shot with a rifle if you don't have a target to aim at. And Discovery kind of paints the target, if you like to use a somewhat militaristic

00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:59.909 John Care: So that's the most important thing, I think, is, you know, you get dragged into demos because the rep thinks it's the right thing to do, but if you don't know why you're doing a demo, and what are the problems that you've got to solve, or what are the gains you're trying to achieve, it's a pointless and time-wasting exercise, and then D&I, Do Nothing Incorporated, does indeed win 42% of deals. Just imagine what it'll do to your pipeline if you could reduce that flow.

00:19:59.910 --> 00:20:07.780 John Care: 42% to 32% or 22%. I mean, like, no, your CFO and CRO would be dancing on tabletops, right?

00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:22.100 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yes, and the discovery is what helps us uncover what the client does see, so that you can show the value in the solution. So we'll get to that in a minute. So we want…

00:20:22.180 --> 00:20:25.279 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the solution have value. It just doesn't have inherent value.

00:20:25.310 --> 00:20:37.050 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Since a lot of your emphasis is on SE management, what role does SE management play, then, when sales teams bypass the consultative process, and maybe even

00:20:37.080 --> 00:20:51.340 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you know, jump straight to a show them the solution. Where does the SE management come into play, or what are some of the gaps or breakdowns, in that realm? And then we'll talk later about what we could do about it.

00:20:51.760 --> 00:21:05.359 John Care: Sure. Well, so there's a tactical approach and a strategic approach here. And even a long-term tactical one, which is reps who do what you just described rarely hit their quota with regularity. So they kind of get, you know.

00:21:05.360 --> 00:21:07.650 John Care: Retired out the system, as it were.

00:21:07.650 --> 00:21:30.369 John Care: Anyway, so eventually, you know, karma wins. But the important thing, what SE management could do is, pretty much every sales organization I have ever interacted with lives and dies at that first level of management. And actually, the relationship between the first-line SE manager and the first-line sales manager is, like, one of the most important relationships in the entire company.

00:21:30.380 --> 00:21:34.570 John Care: And it kind of needs to be, you know, like a marriage or a partnership.

00:21:34.570 --> 00:21:51.529 John Care: In that, you know, the SE manager needs to trust the sales manager that they're going to properly qualify deals, and the sales manager needs to trust the SE manager that, you know, when they ask for sufficient information about a deal, you know, i.e. discovery, that it should be provided.

00:21:51.530 --> 00:21:57.760 John Care: So, really, although experienced SEs can deal with reps who do the dash to demo.

00:21:57.840 --> 00:22:20.090 John Care: If you just have a process in place, like any sales process, that the first-line managers on both sides, as it were, making it seamless, to use your phrase, agree on, then, you know, things progress much faster, you get a higher closure rate, less friction in the sales cycle, more add-ons, faster time to a deployment, all those great things.

00:22:20.670 --> 00:22:37.869 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, it sounds like, in some organization… and we know one of the things that's conspiring against sales and pre-sales working together is it's often two separate organizations, and it does rely on the managers to talk, so one of the things that could lead to the dash to demo is

00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:42.269 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Management not being lockstep on the importance of

00:22:42.570 --> 00:22:52.889 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Qualification, discovery, and setting up both sales and pre-sales for success, and more importantly, setting up the buyer for success as they're working through their journey.

00:22:53.550 --> 00:22:56.530 John Care: Yeah, absolutely, and it's really the most…

00:22:56.770 --> 00:23:21.459 John Care: critical thing. I mean, there's… I've yet to met a sales engineer who doesn't believe they ever have enough discovery, right? So, it is the number one source of friction in the entire sales cycle, is the SE always wants one more meeting, one more conversation, one more review of an architecture diagram, whereas the rep is paid to go from lead to close as fast as they possibly can. So there's a natural conflict there.

00:23:21.460 --> 00:23:23.629 John Care: And you need to find a balance.

00:23:23.630 --> 00:23:24.030 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah.

00:23:24.030 --> 00:23:30.480 John Care: And, you know, so as an SE, you can't be, you know, I need one more meeting, I need one more meeting all the time, because then you are, you know.

00:23:30.560 --> 00:23:45.869 John Care: foreseen as friction in the sales cycle, but as a rep, if you're just, you know, sliding through as fast as you can, then you don't have sufficient information, and you're going to pay for it because you're going to commit to a deal, and it's not going to forecast… not gonna close, rather, because you missed something.

00:23:45.870 --> 00:23:58.619 John Care: So, there is that balance, and again, it's that seamless approach to opportunity management between sales engineering and sales, plus partners and pro services and anyone else who's engaged.

00:23:58.800 --> 00:24:09.290 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, and that's why DNI, as you call it, Do Nothing Incorporated, is just as much of a competitor as an actual name competitor, and very often lose to that.

00:24:09.350 --> 00:24:24.890 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So what… let's talk a little bit about some of the impact. I recall that you mentioned, and this sounds like a really high number, you mentioned that a top sales engineer represents potentially 6 to 8 million in incremental value for their company. So.

00:24:24.890 --> 00:24:32.820 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: What specific opportunities are companies missing when SEs and AMs or AEs are not collaborating effectively?

00:24:33.390 --> 00:24:47.909 John Care: Now, so one of the things we do in our SC leadership workshops is we run a little exercise, and it's kind of… it's a bit more than a thought experiment. Imagine that your number one or number two sales engineer that you have working in your organization decides to leave.

00:24:48.280 --> 00:24:49.150 John Care: Alright, nope.

00:24:49.170 --> 00:25:10.720 John Care: not run over by bus, but they win the lottery, right? It's a pleasant departure. What impact would that have on your company, you know, both the soft impact and the hard impact, assuming that, you know, you're running flat out and there's not spare capacity, you can just drop somebody in? And when you work it through, it's about equivalent to that individual's quota, as it were.

00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:11.270 John Care: semester.

00:25:11.270 --> 00:25:22.789 John Care: don't have quota, plus there's recruitment costs and everything else. But for a lot of organizations, it is between, like, 6 to 8 million, whether that's dollars, pounds, euros. It's a lot of money.

00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:36.000 John Care: So, that is the value of, you know, what a top-performing sales engineer, and if you lose them, so if you've got a well-oiled machine like that, I mean, goodness me, don't you want to do the best you can?

00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:46.340 John Care: If you take that $8 million number, say, and divide it by 2,000, which is the number of working hours that you have in a year, that's, quote, no, the billing rate for your SEs.

00:25:46.340 --> 00:25:46.700 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Right.

00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:55.789 John Care: Yeah, that's $4,000, $4,000 an hour that your SEs have to generate in order to, you know, meet that $8 million. It's, that's a heavy burden.

00:25:56.210 --> 00:26:08.809 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah. And, we've all heard the expression, which proved to be true, is that people don't usually leave their company, they usually leave their manager, so if SEs aren't feeling supported by their manager.

00:26:08.810 --> 00:26:18.280 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And, that coordination isn't happening at that first level, as you said, then this could be, you know, an effect on morale and things like that.

00:26:18.280 --> 00:26:33.620 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: for a while, at least, it was pretty easy for SE to jump from company to company, because there was a lot of openings and things. That's a little bit, you know, maybe a little bit changed right now, but it's significant in terms of that impact. What other things from an SE management perspective.

00:26:33.620 --> 00:26:38.599 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Do you feel that poor sales and pre-sales alignment can impact

00:26:38.710 --> 00:26:43.900 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Regarding individual deals, or the pipeline health, or competitive positioning.

00:26:44.810 --> 00:27:04.590 John Care: You know, I think each side needs to understand that not everyone is like you, and they're different. You know, one of the most terrible things I see is when, you know, individual sales SEs or a small SE organization reports into a sales manager or sales director. And unless they're really experienced, they don't understand that SEs need something

00:27:04.590 --> 00:27:20.689 John Care: different, and they're different animals, you know, cats and dogs sleeping together, right? And vice versa. Sales reps, you know, we like to joke they're coin-operated, but they're way, way smarter than that. So SEs have to give them credit for, you know, the, you know.

00:27:20.690 --> 00:27:38.199 John Care: the bit… the iceberg you can't see, the sales operations that you can't see, that reps tend to do. So I think fully appreciating what the other side brings, rather than complaining and whining about it all the time, really does help that seamless partnership and get everything going in the right direction.

00:27:38.750 --> 00:27:46.440 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, and it definitely could impact things like the SEs not being happy, not helping the reps make their quota.

00:27:46.530 --> 00:28:00.049 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the pipeline health, because one of the things that can happen is that we chase and chase and chase, and it really is a funnel, like a sales funnel, you know, and that implies that stuff is dropping out way late in the process.

00:28:00.050 --> 00:28:14.319 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And that's because, to your point, it wasn't properly qualified, or discovery wasn't done, and then… but the sales rep is still trying, yeah, we still have a shot at this, we still have a shot at it. Whereas, what it really should turn into, instead of a funnel, is more of a pipeline

00:28:14.320 --> 00:28:28.800 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: when we're properly qualifying, and sometimes it even takes the SE to say, you know, I see some concerns here, and therefore, we may need to walk away from this, but the impact on a pipe… on a funnel.

00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:38.629 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: on a pipeline that's more of a funnel is that you're going to lose deals late in the process, and that, doesn't help with things like, forecasting and things like that.

00:28:38.630 --> 00:28:50.180 John Care: That is painful. And actually, one piece of advice that I give to first-line SE managers, and even experienced SEs, is your job, believe it or not, is not to make the salesperson happy.

00:28:50.180 --> 00:28:52.829 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Your job is to make the salesperson successful.

00:28:52.830 --> 00:29:10.989 John Care: And make the customer happy and successful. And happy and successful, they may sound like they're the same, but how you get there is totally different. And I think if, as an SE manager, you bear that in mind, it kind of helps be a guiding light for you in terms of how you interact with

00:29:10.990 --> 00:29:13.799 John Care: Not just sales, but other parts of the organization, too.

00:29:14.110 --> 00:29:21.540 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And so, whereas oftentimes SEs aren't… well, it's more and more they're… they are being given a portion of

00:29:21.600 --> 00:29:38.480 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the, revenues, there's KPIs, key performance indicators and things right now that tie to annual recurring revenue and things like that, but really, it is the salesperson that's got a base salary, and then the bulk of their income comes from the commission.

00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:57.520 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So they're just feeling compelled to chase after everything. I think there's something to be said about that when this is broken, that salesperson is at risk for reaching their quota. And it doesn't do them any good to try, like you said, to slide through it as quickly as possible, because that's just going to be a matter of

00:29:57.570 --> 00:30:08.040 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: probability that they do it enough times that something lands. But, talk a little bit more about the… that potential impact on them as far as, that

00:30:08.210 --> 00:30:10.239 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The quota attainment, and things like that.

00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:21.110 John Care: Well, most SEs are leveraged in terms of maybe 25% of their take-home pay, is based upon sales achievement and

00:30:21.110 --> 00:30:35.540 John Care: quota, which is nowhere near as much as the reps are. But ultimately, when it comes down to it, when the number is missed, the salespeople are the first ones who, you know, are shot, are whacked, and are fired, are riffed out of the company.

00:30:35.540 --> 00:30:47.700 John Care: sales engineers tend to stay longer, so you have to make some pretty, you know, horrible mistakes in order to get fired as an SE in terms of messing up a deal, whereas a rep, you know, the amount of

00:30:47.700 --> 00:30:59.249 John Care: rope that you're given, right? It's… it's different, so they'll tend to, as I said, whack you first before they hit the SE. So, yeah, their… their family, their livelihood is at risk.

00:30:59.570 --> 00:31:24.240 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And which makes the SE's life more miserable, because now you have a new sales rep coming in, and then the buyer, the client, is getting more and more people that they're trying to deal with, too. I remember one client that, when I went in there, they had this plaque on the wall, and they had all the sales reps that they had had over, like, the last 3 years, and it was, I think, like, 12 sales reps, that somehow or another, because there was people jumbled up, or they didn't meet their quota.

00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:27.679 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: and they got fired. So there are a lot of implications about that.

00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:36.549 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: When we come back from the break, we're going to talk about what we could do about this, and then what are the benefits to the organization. So, we'll be back in about 2 minutes.

00:33:19.010 --> 00:33:27.300 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: All right, everybody, welcome back. So, we're talking with John Kerr, Mastering Technical Sales, and we started to talk about

00:33:27.390 --> 00:33:33.020 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The situation where there's a misalignment between sales and pre-sales, and

00:33:33.070 --> 00:33:50.010 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the way that sometimes sales management isn't completely on top of that, and what some of the implications are. Now, John, let's shift to, okay, what do we do about it? And I know that we could do a whole show on this, or maybe multiple hours, and that's why you have workshops and seminars and everything else that covers this.

00:33:50.010 --> 00:33:58.609 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Let's start with building that bridge. So, walk us through a little bit what proper business value discovery looks like

00:33:58.900 --> 00:34:06.690 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: When it takes place, and should take place, before any type of technical proof or technical demonstration.

00:34:07.390 --> 00:34:32.390 John Care: Sure. So, there's two types of discovery. There's business value discovery, and there's technical discovery. And I kind of think of them as being, like, intertwined, like the twin strands of DNA helix. Every SE in the world is good at technical discovery, so we'll talk about business value discovery. This might be multiple meetings before the demo, it might be a single meeting, it could be 5 or 10 minutes of conversation.

00:34:32.389 --> 00:34:34.010 John Care: Before you go into.

00:34:34.010 --> 00:34:58.990 John Care: a demo, but you still need to be able to set the scene. So, it looks like this. One is before you even walk into the room, virtual or not, you have to do your research. That is so much easier now with all the AI tools available than even it was 5 years ago. So, it can take a first-pass guess at what the pains are of the customer. Then you go into the conversation, you try and identify all the issues before you dive down

00:34:58.990 --> 00:35:06.010 John Care: and start talking about anyone, no matter how tempting it might be. If you think the customer's left something out.

00:35:06.010 --> 00:35:24.079 John Care: add it, or ask permission to add it, and it's essential the SE does this, because if the SE does it, the customer will normally accept it. If the rep does it, they're going to think, you're trying to sell me something. Then prioritize it, so you've got a list of 1, 2, 3, 4. Once you've got those, then

00:35:24.130 --> 00:35:49.119 John Care: you need to be looking for evidence, you know, how do you know it's a problem? How do you know it's resolved, and impact. You know, what's the impact of this problem now? And if we fix it, what are the gains that you're going to get out of it? And when we do that, we look for three things. Time, people, and money. So if, as an SE, you can equate a pain or a gain to time, people, or money, then you've pretty much done your job, because then you should be able to link that to

00:35:49.120 --> 00:35:58.540 John Care: your portfolio and be able to, you know, bring that out and highlight that in the demo. So that, in a nutshell, is MTS 104, Business Value Discovery.

00:35:58.540 --> 00:36:02.660 John Care: With one important piece missing that we're going to get to in a bit, yeah.

00:36:02.660 --> 00:36:07.799 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, that… you just did a one-day workshop in, you know, two and a half minutes.

00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:08.820 John Care: Yeah, there you go.

00:36:08.820 --> 00:36:20.490 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Some key points, and we can't dwell too much on this, but some key points is that would be done for each stakeholder, because different people at different levels in the organization have different needs.

00:36:20.600 --> 00:36:23.860 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, maybe say a little bit about that.

00:36:24.260 --> 00:36:49.169 John Care: Yeah, that is. So, you know, particularly if you're selling what I enduringly call IT plumbing, right, which is, you know, infrastructure to the IT department, you know, the database group might have a different opinion than the security group, from networking group, from, you know, the hardware group, from the cloud architecture group. So you need to talk to everybody, understand what their priorities are, what their gains are, what their pains are, and triangulate it back. So when you're doing a demo.

00:36:49.170 --> 00:36:53.360 John Care: And, you know, if you've got 4 or 5 different types of stakeholders in the room.

00:36:53.360 --> 00:37:08.830 John Care: not just in backgrounds, but also in, you know, leveling the food chain, you can target each and every one of them with something. So, don't think in a complex sale that one discovery call is going to get it done, even with, you know, the best AI assist in the world.

00:37:09.390 --> 00:37:20.990 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, and there's tremendous value in that, because we, as sort of an outsider, get to see a view that sometimes they can't even see, because they know their own little silos and things, and we can help put that picture together.

00:37:21.060 --> 00:37:27.550 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So what frameworks should the SE leadership establish with sales leadership

00:37:27.570 --> 00:37:42.749 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: to help bridge this gap and ensure that the SEs and AMs are working together, and then linking, you know, not just showing technology for technology's sake, because it has no inherent value, but linking it to the business outcomes. So what kind of frameworks or relationships should…

00:37:42.750 --> 00:37:45.369 John Care: are for the SE leaders and sales leaders.

00:37:46.210 --> 00:37:53.149 John Care: You take that phrase, like, the complete phrase, it's your solution has no inherent value until the customer says it does.

00:37:53.150 --> 00:37:53.860 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So…

00:37:53.860 --> 00:38:03.229 John Care: Your job as the SEA team is to, you know, help the customer understand the value that your solution… I hate that word, solution.

00:38:03.810 --> 00:38:05.360 John Care: actually provide.

00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:07.370 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: It's much maligned.

00:38:07.370 --> 00:38:12.390 John Care: It is much maligned. I always say, no customer in the world buys solutions, right? They buy outcomes.

00:38:12.390 --> 00:38:13.390 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yes, yes.

00:38:13.390 --> 00:38:38.350 John Care: you have to speak about the outcomes. So, the framework we use to, you know, pivot from technology to business is something that we call FAB. So, I tell people that be the fabulous sales engineer, and that stands for Features, Advantages, and Benefits. As engineers, we're great at features, right? We love to talk about bits and bytes and speeds and feeds, and we can live there all day. And to, you know, mid-level exec… mid-level management executives, it means nothing.

00:38:38.350 --> 00:39:01.759 John Care: Then you've got advantages, which is what those features actually do. As engineers, we're okay with that. And then the last step, the B, is the benefits. So what that means to you, Mr. Customer, is… and explaining it in terms of time, people, and money. And that's where reps are normally better than the SEs. So quite often, you know, the SE can do the F and the A,

00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:13.439 John Care: and the rep can start on the B and kind of drive that home. And in a perfect team, that's how it can really work. So, it's not just be the fabulous sales engineer, it's be the fabulous sales team.

00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:21.100 John Care: And don't get mired in the features and even the advantages, you've got to drive through to the benefits, and the customer needs to say, aha!

00:39:21.170 --> 00:39:26.899 John Care: Right? Got it. And when the customer says, got it, or I see what you mean, then…

00:39:27.120 --> 00:39:31.820 John Care: They've acknowledged value, and that is a massive step forward in the sales process.

00:39:32.510 --> 00:39:47.010 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, and that goes back to what you were saying about the marriage, because with FAB, it's not just FA or B separately, they are completely related to make it FAB, and fabulous SE, fabulous team, gives the…

00:39:47.090 --> 00:39:59.619 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: essences that the SE really needs to focus on, and sales at the sort of two extremes, but then a really healthy overlap in the middle. And I know one thing that's always helped me out with whenever I facilitate this is

00:39:59.620 --> 00:40:12.460 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The F and the A is usually more about us. It's about our thing and what our thing does, and the B is what… why they would care. So that goes back to, like, the F and the A is the solution in your parlance, right? And the B is…

00:40:12.460 --> 00:40:31.529 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the why would they care? It's the outcome. The B is the outcome. What does it do for them? And that's the only thing that really matters. And like you said, you know, the chart that I was referring to in the intro, where it shows sales engineers are automatically trusted twice as much as sales is? Well, this is something that can really help… there you go, that's it.

00:40:31.530 --> 00:40:36.380 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: This is something that can really help level that playing field, because… or…

00:40:36.470 --> 00:40:49.129 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: help with the approach for the buyer, because now you've got the SEs who are trusted, laying the groundwork, and then married right into that is the salesperson, and now their trust goes up.

00:40:49.130 --> 00:41:00.219 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So any salespeople that are listening, sales managers that are listening, this isn't just about, like, something that one part wants the other part to do. It's really beneficial for both.

00:41:00.550 --> 00:41:15.239 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We've got a few minutes, just a few minutes left here. Let's shift to what are some of the gains, then? And we touched on this a little bit earlier, but let's bring it home with what gains can SE management achieve by addressing this gap?

00:41:15.350 --> 00:41:20.650 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And even, you know, what… why does this make so much difference to the stakeholder?

00:41:21.310 --> 00:41:32.749 John Care: Sure. So, there's lots of gains. One is you end up with happier and more satisfied sales engineers, and yeah, it's not all about us, but, you know, if you're a manager, you do care about your people.

00:41:33.140 --> 00:41:57.479 John Care: But it makes a massive difference to the pipeline and to deal closure rates. We ran out business value discovery through one of our larger clients, and on average, each SE that went through the class reported, over the course of the year, $2 million in extra opportunities that the workshop had positively impacted. So if you multiply that by the number

00:41:57.480 --> 00:41:59.339 John Care: of essays they had, which was.

00:41:59.340 --> 00:42:03.040 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Hundreds. Massive expansion of.

00:42:03.170 --> 00:42:18.190 John Care: the pipeline, and, you know, as that channels down. So, that's just an enormous impact that you get from that. And then lastly, you know, we kind of pivot back to where we started, the trusted advisor sales engineer is…

00:42:18.640 --> 00:42:26.050 John Care: by working together, sales and AEs, right? For those of you on video, right, there's my… there's my t-shirt. Trust your… trust your SE.

00:42:26.050 --> 00:42:42.390 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: John's always great with the t-shirts. Let me, just as an aside, John does, on LinkedIn, he does a book very often, and thanks for doing my book a while ago, and then he always has a shirt that goes with it. So, we've always told John, you need a side business just selling t-shirts. So, sorry, I didn't want to interrupt, but that's all.

00:42:42.390 --> 00:43:06.290 John Care: Oh, that's okay. And so, ultimately, I mean, everything we've spoken about ultimately comes down to the customer. So, if, as the sales team, you can generate that trust with the customer, so the customer believes that you are acting in their best interest, that helps everybody, right? Happier customers, happier salespeople, happier sales engineers, happy CFOs, because they can stand in front of Wall Street and talk about good results.

00:43:06.290 --> 00:43:21.209 John Care: So, you know, trust is the, you know, the oil, the lubricant that runs the engine of sales, and sales engineers are the people who apply that trust all over the place to make sure that it actually happens. So, I think if there's one takeaway for your listeners is, you know.

00:43:21.210 --> 00:43:29.120 John Care: Trust, particularly in the age of AI, trust and humanity that goes with it, is just so important, and it's what differentiates us from the robots.

00:43:29.290 --> 00:43:41.460 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Right, exactly. And remember, John's releasing an update to his Trusted Advisor Sales Engineer book, so if you don't have it already, or if you want a refresh, grab that, and that'll help you apply these concepts as well.

00:43:41.530 --> 00:43:58.629 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: John, it's been a great… it's been a great pleasure, having you here and sharing this with the audience. I really appreciate it. Any concluding remarks, and then the best way to contact you? And by the way, all the… all the, contact information is in the show notes as well, but I'll just let you have the last word here.

00:43:58.820 --> 00:44:23.110 John Care: Thanks. Oh, I don't often get the last word. So, please go visit the website, www.martiantechnicalsales.com. We've trained 100,000 sales engineers, and a bunch of SE leaders as well. If you want to see what we do, read the books. There's three books, there's the main handbook, the Trust Advisor, the SE Manager's Handbook.

00:44:23.110 --> 00:44:38.569 John Care: If you like what you read, come see us. Maybe you'll get art as one of the facilitators. If you disagree with what I've written, then, you know, go work with somebody else. But it's out there in the public domain, and boy, it's made a lot of people successful. So, you know…

00:44:38.660 --> 00:44:39.770 John Care: Trust… trust.

00:44:41.030 --> 00:44:42.810 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Alright, thank you so much, John.

00:44:43.580 --> 00:44:44.680 John Care: Okay, thanks a lot.

00:44:44.680 --> 00:44:45.440 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Take care.

00:46:16.990 --> 00:46:34.599 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: All right, well, that was a great segment with John. If you are watching this, you may want to rewind that and check it out again, or if you're watching the recording, that is, or if you watched it live, check that out again. Tons of takeaways. So again, thank you so much, John. Really appreciate that.

00:46:34.950 --> 00:46:43.499 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, as I said at the beginning of the show, today's a very special and sad but great day, because…

00:46:43.780 --> 00:47:03.129 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: we can remember my dad, so instead of my usual Dear Artie segment, where I answer your sales challenges and questions, I do want to, in this final episode of this season of Making Seamless Sales, pay tribute to a huge influencer in my life, schooling and career, and that's my dad, Paul From.

00:47:03.430 --> 00:47:07.900 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, it was 15 years ago today, when…

00:47:08.440 --> 00:47:11.370 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I was coming home from a trip to Asia.

00:47:11.610 --> 00:47:17.000 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And I landed in Chicago before my final connecting flight to Buffalo.

00:47:17.490 --> 00:47:20.019 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: when I got the news that everyone dreads.

00:47:20.830 --> 00:47:23.159 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: When I called my wife upon landing.

00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:28.579 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Instead of her being happy to hear that I was back, I was greeted…

00:47:29.180 --> 00:47:34.169 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: With her sobbing, shaky voice, timidly saying, I have bad news.

00:47:34.420 --> 00:47:35.800 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: your dad is gone

00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:43.820 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I couldn't believe it. Gone. I was like, what's going on here? The words took only seconds to hear, but…

00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:48.320 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: It took forever to sink in. Gone. I was devastated.

00:47:49.340 --> 00:47:53.879 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: at 81, It was a life cut too short.

00:47:54.100 --> 00:47:55.980 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: But he lived a good and full life.

00:47:56.910 --> 00:48:03.600 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: It seems that 11PM the night before, 15 years ago, that would have been last night, my dad had a massive aneurysm.

00:48:03.880 --> 00:48:08.240 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And now is being kept on life support, awaiting my arrival.

00:48:10.150 --> 00:48:15.520 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So I could be with him and our family as we said our last goodbyes 15 years ago tonight.

00:48:16.410 --> 00:48:21.760 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Now… Unfortunately, I can't be with my mom tonight in Buffalo.

00:48:22.810 --> 00:48:30.480 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: since this is the last episode of the show, and I needed to do it live for my home office, and I also had a virtual client delivery today that I needed to do.

00:48:30.640 --> 00:48:32.379 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: But, here's what's cool.

00:48:32.510 --> 00:48:34.010 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I know she's watching.

00:48:35.580 --> 00:48:40.779 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: She's watching live on YouTube at 92 years old, so…

00:48:41.080 --> 00:48:45.129 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Love you, Mom, and all you and Dad have done for me and our family.

00:48:46.250 --> 00:49:00.170 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, to honor my dad as a celebration of his life, I just want to pay tribute with him and share a few things with you about the amazing man and inspiration that he has been for me, and how he and my mom have truly provided a wonderful life for our family.

00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:05.240 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And maybe there's a few things that we can learn together from him and his legacy along the way.

00:49:05.670 --> 00:49:07.300 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Where do I start? Well…

00:49:07.620 --> 00:49:14.230 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: He helped man get to the moon in 1969, but I'll get there soon enough. Let's back up just a little bit.

00:49:14.860 --> 00:49:23.130 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: My dad lost his dad when he was 2, which I find remarkable because, although he never had a dad, he became a great dad.

00:49:23.490 --> 00:49:25.199 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: A dad to emulate.

00:49:26.020 --> 00:49:27.780 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Caring, resourceful.

00:49:28.080 --> 00:49:35.909 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Resilient, very smart, ambitious worker, wonderful husband, father, grandfather, faithful to God and to family.

00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:41.029 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: He was very active at his home church and in church-related organizations.

00:49:41.450 --> 00:49:52.729 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: He showed us that faith in God and love of family are vitally important and will ground us and equip us for service and help us to get through the inevitable challenges.

00:49:52.880 --> 00:49:53.779 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: of life.

00:49:54.340 --> 00:49:58.199 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: That's… At least one lesson we can all benefit from.

00:49:59.060 --> 00:50:03.440 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: He had other substantial contributions, too, starting with his connection to Go Blue.

00:50:03.770 --> 00:50:06.819 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The rallying cry of the University of Michigan.

00:50:07.420 --> 00:50:17.849 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: After attending community college for a year, my dad attended the University of Michigan from 1949 to 1951. He was very active at the on-campus University Chapel.

00:50:17.990 --> 00:50:23.979 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And with many university activities and organizations. He felt good about the University of Michigan.

00:50:24.270 --> 00:50:29.200 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: My dad tells the story that in 1950, he and his roommate, Bob Neer…

00:50:29.330 --> 00:50:32.229 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: attended a University of Michigan hockey game.

00:50:32.690 --> 00:50:35.990 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And as corroborated by Bob Near himself.

00:50:36.130 --> 00:50:40.539 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: My dad suddenly stood up and began shouting, Go Blue!

00:50:40.750 --> 00:50:43.639 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Out of the blue. No rhyme or reason.

00:50:43.940 --> 00:50:48.219 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: You see, at first, the other spectators were confused and actually laughed.

00:50:48.470 --> 00:50:52.030 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The cheer at the time was, Go Michigan!

00:50:52.460 --> 00:50:55.079 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yet my dad persisted. Go Blue!

00:50:55.730 --> 00:51:00.119 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And after a few minutes, others in the crowd began to join in.

00:51:00.250 --> 00:51:02.760 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The rhythmic, go blue, took hold.

00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:07.910 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Eliciting strong emotion from the crowd and creating a powerful sense of connection to the team.

00:51:08.210 --> 00:51:17.119 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Bob Neer described the event as absolutely spontaneous, and both he and my dad were amazed at how quickly the simple two-word phrase united the crowd.

00:51:17.590 --> 00:51:31.499 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: In the fall of 1950, he continued the cheer as corroborated by Ann Arbor native Peg Dugan, who said she first heard my dad yell, Go Blue, at the football home opener, again with the crowd joining in.

00:51:32.940 --> 00:51:37.319 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I was very blessed to see this in action this past Saturday at the big house.

00:51:38.970 --> 00:51:41.219 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the University of Michigan Stadium.

00:51:41.480 --> 00:51:47.980 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: My wife, my sister, her husband, our daughter, her husband, and our two grandsons attended the game.

00:51:49.490 --> 00:51:51.120 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And heard the crowd.

00:51:53.380 --> 00:52:02.519 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: of over 110,000 people. Of course, a lot of them were Michigan… were Washington fans, but there was a crowd of 110,000 people chanting, Go Blue.

00:52:02.770 --> 00:52:04.350 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: With one voice.

00:52:05.370 --> 00:52:08.390 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: That started with my dad 75 years ago.

00:52:09.370 --> 00:52:13.500 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So the lesson learned is you never know the impact one voice could have.

00:52:13.700 --> 00:52:16.330 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: You never know the impact one voice could have.

00:52:17.090 --> 00:52:23.290 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: After graduating from the University of Michigan with a BSME specializing in hydraulics and pneumatics.

00:52:23.490 --> 00:52:38.560 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: My dad initially worked for AMF Boeing Company and subsequently landed a job at Bell Aircraft, which turned into Bell Aerosystems, which turned into Bell Aerospace. So you could see the progression. They're the originators of the Bell helicopter.

00:52:38.820 --> 00:52:40.140 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And he worked there.

00:52:40.660 --> 00:52:47.059 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: He worked in Wheatfield, New York, north of Buffalo, and he served in the Army for a couple years during that time, too.

00:52:47.500 --> 00:52:53.109 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: It was at Bell Aerosystems that he contributed to the man… to man landing on the moon.

00:52:54.240 --> 00:53:02.679 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: When the astronauts were training to land on the moon with the lunar lander, they needed to simulate the 1 6th gravity of the moon here on Earth.

00:53:02.920 --> 00:53:11.619 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So Bell, with my dad's help, designed the Lunar Landing Training Vehicle, or sometimes referred to as the Lunar Landing Research Vehicle.

00:53:13.200 --> 00:53:22.760 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: It had a gimbal engine that always pointed down no matter which way the vehicle articulated, such that it would simulate the 1-6 gravity of the moon.

00:53:23.170 --> 00:53:28.110 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: My dad… Designed the hydraulic system to control that gimbal engine.

00:53:28.450 --> 00:53:39.460 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Now, as some of you may recall, the first manned lunar landing in 1969 did not quite go as planned, because just with seconds left of fuel.

00:53:39.820 --> 00:53:45.180 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The program Flight Path was about to take Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin into a crater.

00:53:45.600 --> 00:53:49.950 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So Neil Armstrong had to take control and land the vehicle manually.

00:53:50.910 --> 00:53:55.710 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: When he got back from the moon, he said that the LLTV

00:53:56.010 --> 00:54:00.730 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: With the gimbal engine, perfectly prepared him to make that landing.

00:54:01.620 --> 00:54:17.429 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: My dad was also involved in the Agena rocket engine that was a key component of all kinds of different systems for missile systems and to blast the lunar module off the moon. And he did many, many other amazing projects. But here's the lesson and the takeaway.

00:54:18.010 --> 00:54:22.090 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: He was humble, And thankful through it all.

00:54:23.570 --> 00:54:24.959 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: he was doing.

00:54:25.530 --> 00:54:27.750 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: His job to the best of his ability.

00:54:27.980 --> 00:54:31.909 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: He was happy that he could use the talents that God had given him.

00:54:32.580 --> 00:54:37.800 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, all of this has been a huge influence for me to get my BSME degree.

00:54:38.410 --> 00:54:46.350 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Leading to my career, ultimately in software and sales, and sales enablement. He was a great example of humility and service.

00:54:46.890 --> 00:54:50.110 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Finally, I found some handwritten notes.

00:54:50.190 --> 00:55:02.080 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I'm not quite sure if they were from university or during his career, but a couple of them jumped out at me. One that's pretty cool is there's an article that he cut out that's how to

00:55:02.080 --> 00:55:12.079 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: present an idea. And, you know, that's part of what I teach today with Great Demo and other things like that of, you know, how to present ideas. But I want to share a couple quick things with you.

00:55:12.100 --> 00:55:14.310 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: On this one little doodle pad.

00:55:14.410 --> 00:55:31.250 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: notepad that he had here, it says, too many professional people write to impress rather than to express. And I think that's part of what John and I were talking about with FAB. It's not about impressing somebody with your solution, it's about to express the way that

00:55:31.370 --> 00:55:35.270 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: They can be helped, the way that they can benefit the business outcomes.

00:55:36.250 --> 00:55:43.829 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The other thing that somebody… that he also put on here was, think of whom you are writing to and what you will say.

00:55:44.890 --> 00:55:48.959 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And make sure that what you write has purpose.

00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:57.310 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: make sure that you are writing the what, why, and the so what. So this is notes that he took, you know, I don't know how many…

00:55:57.530 --> 00:56:01.759 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: 50 years ago, or whatever, it would have been. 75, I guess.

00:56:02.290 --> 00:56:11.129 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The other thing that's really great, and this… I won't put this to the camera, because it'll probably go out of focus, but he actually wrote here about that whenever you

00:56:11.580 --> 00:56:18.689 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: in… For informational material, always use an inverted pyramid for all of you great demo fans.

00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:30.120 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: This is something he wrote a long time ago that we know today. So, the lesson here is never stop learning. Even well-worn concepts can be useful, and will stand the test of time.

00:56:30.560 --> 00:56:35.970 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Thank you so much for letting me spend a few minutes to honor my dad today.

00:56:36.600 --> 00:56:44.749 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I hope that it's been an encouragement to you, and will help you to continue his legacy of positive influence. So…

00:56:48.210 --> 00:56:49.759 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Here's to you, Dad.

00:56:50.140 --> 00:56:51.920 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Love you to the moon and back.

00:56:52.450 --> 00:56:53.450 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Go Blue!

00:56:55.730 --> 00:56:56.470 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: All right

00:56:56.950 --> 00:57:05.269 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Thanks for letting me share that. Listen, this is the end of our season of making seamless Sales. Thanks again to John Kerr for sharing your ideas.

00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:24.379 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: for SEs to continue to be more strategic, for SE managers to support them. Before you go, please check out TeamSalesDevelopment.com website, including the events page for details about today's show, as well as other previous and upcoming events. Contact me to discuss your plans for sales kickoff.

00:57:24.630 --> 00:57:36.450 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Other events to improve the results for your sales team. I offer keynotes, seminars, workshops, CRM integrated tools that help sales sell. And of course, don't forget about the book.

00:57:36.560 --> 00:57:45.419 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: of the same name as the show, Making Seamless Sales. There's all kinds of things in here, including the material from John, from Steve Bistrez, from

00:57:45.670 --> 00:58:00.269 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: from Peter Cohan, and my material blended into it. So thank you very much, everybody. It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Jesse, for all your help in producing, and for Sam Leibowitz for running this whole thing. It's been an absolute pleasure.

00:58:00.340 --> 00:58:07.209 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Until next time, let's just leave it like that. Here's to making seamless sales. Take care, everybody.

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