❓ Have you ever seen (or delivered) a bad demo? In this episode Peter Cohan, renowned author of Great Demo! and Doing Discovery, shares decades of hard-earned wisdom on how to transform demos, discovery, and presales/sales conversations into powerful tools for winning business.
Here’s what you’ll walk away with:
🔍 Master the Art of Discovery – Learn how to go beyond superficial questions and uncover the real problems your prospects care about, so your demos resonate instead of missing the mark.
📊 Speak the Language of Business – Gain practical strategies to translate technical capabilities into measurable business outcomes — and tell stories that resonate with decision-makers and budget-holders.
🤝 Bridge the Presales–Sales Divide – See how the Great Demo! approach creates a seamless buyer journey by aligning SEs and AMs/AEs, leveraging technical credibility to advance deals, and presenting a united front to customers.
➡️ You’ll want to hear Peter’s insights on how to transform discovery and demos into engaging, customer-focused conversations that resonate with decision-makers and move deals forward.
➡️ We’ll also dive into how sales and presales can work together seamlessly to deliver a unified buyer journey — leveraging technical expertise, building trust, and connecting product capabilities to real business outcomes.
👉 Whether you’re a sales engineer, account manager, or sales leader, this episode will help you deliver demos that close deals, conversations that convert, and discovery sessions that differentiate you from the competition.
Web Site: greatdemo.com/
LinkedIn Group: www.linkedin.com/groups/2430414/
LinkedIn Profile: www.linkedin.com/in/petercohan/
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📗 Making SEAMless Sales Book Page: teamsalesdevelopment.com/making-seamless-sales-book/
💻 Making SEAMless Sales Livecast/Recording/Podcast Page: teamsalesdevelopment.com/12-week-podcast-series-on-talkradio-nyc/
📝 Don't forget to submit your questions for the "Dear Arty" segment, where Art addresses your sales challenges live! teamsalesdevelopment.com/contact-tsd/
Tune in for this informative conversation at TalkRadio.nyc or watch the .
In this episode of Making SEAMless Sales, Art Fromm sets the stage for a conversation with Peter Cohan, creator of the Great Demo Methodology, highlighting how discovery and tailored demos can transform sales outcomes. He reflects on lessons from past high-stakes deals, emphasizing the importance of slowing down to uncover true client needs, building credibility through sales–pre-sales partnerships, and avoiding the trap of rushing to generic demos. Art also shares how adopting Great Demo reshaped his own career, reigniting long-term client relationships and proving that well-executed discovery and solution alignment drive lasting business growth.
In this segment, Art Fromm welcomes Peter Cohan, founder of the Great Demo methodology, who shares how his frustrations as a CRM buyer led to rethinking discovery and demo practices. Peter explains the danger of “Harbor Tour” or “Golden Demo” approaches—long, linear demos delivered without meaningful discovery—which leave stakeholders disengaged and key decision-makers’ needs unmet. He emphasizes that effective sales success requires tailored discovery for each stakeholder, alignment with their critical needs, and the use of compelling stories rather than generic feature-benefit statements to truly win business.
In this closing segment, Art Fromm and Peter Cohan explore the power of the situation slide as the bridge between discovery and a compelling demo. Peter explains how it captures a stakeholder’s role, challenges, underlying problems, required capabilities, expected value (the delta), and critical timeline—giving sales teams a shared framework to tailor demos and avoid overselling. They stress that aligning demos to only what matters most compels buyer action, builds trust, and accelerates deals, while Peter offers his availability to coach professionals and invites sales teams to leverage his resources at GreatDemo.com.
In the final segment, Art Fromm answers listener questions in his “Dear Artie” session, focusing on how to move sales teams beyond the default “harbor tour” demo by making discovery a required step. He emphasizes the need for proper incentives, training, and cross-functional collaboration, where both sales and pre-sales teams use tools like the situation slide to align on buyer outcomes. Art closes by highlighting the importance of leveraging SE trust strategically, keeping demos focused on business value, and previewing next week’s guest, Yumi Peterson, who will share insights on leading SDR, BDR, and field sales teams in partnership with pre-sales.
00:01:04.229 --> 00:01:14.639 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Making Seamless Sales show. Welcome, everybody, that's live, or if you're listening to the replay of the show, on any of our channels.
00:01:14.749 --> 00:01:32.029 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Coming to you tonight live from Mars, Pennsylvania. This is episode 9 of the Making Seamless Sales Show with special guest Peter Cohan, creator of The Great Demo Methodology, which is part of my consultative sales portfolio, and that I deliver as a certified partner.
00:01:32.199 --> 00:01:41.549 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We'll get to Peter here after the first break. I just, have a few things that I wanted to cover, and also set up for our time together with Peter shortly here.
00:01:41.769 --> 00:01:58.689 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: With permission from Peter, I've referenced Great Demo Concepts, and Peter actually wrote one of the three forwards for my book with the same name as the show, Making Seamless Sales. And in today's episode, we're going to dive deeper into his ideas for
00:01:58.949 --> 00:02:02.049 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Doing discovery, leading to great demo.
00:02:02.519 --> 00:02:13.239 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Which are the books that I have to my right, as well as draw from his new book, Suspending Disbelief, which is a compilation of stories that Peter tells in workshops.
00:02:13.389 --> 00:02:28.159 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And that he's gathered from life encounters, including the origin of the term harbor tour, so we may visit that briefly as we get into Peter's session in a little bit here. I'm Art Fromm, founder and president of Team Sales Development.
00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:42.969 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And the purpose of this show, and really everything that I'm doing right now, is to share ideas based on my 10 years of pre-sale sales and sales management experience, leading to 25 years now of sales enablement.
00:02:43.089 --> 00:02:56.319 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I've curated key, interconnected concepts for my whole consultative selling portfolio, including Great Demo, and I offer it in the book. So tonight, we'll more into that portion of the portfolio.
00:02:56.739 --> 00:02:59.399 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Before we get into tonight's show.
00:02:59.579 --> 00:03:07.999 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I'd like to give a big thanks to last week's guest on Episode 8, which ran September 25th, Jerry Timmis.
00:03:08.199 --> 00:03:14.559 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the sales rep, from the Smiths story in the Making Seamless Sales book.
00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:30.689 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, Jerry and I talked about the cornerstone incident that shaped both Jerry's sales career and really was a big inspiration behind the book. Together, we revisited a high-stakes deal with Smith's Industries.
00:03:30.939 --> 00:03:34.829 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: where Jerry was coming in late,
00:03:34.929 --> 00:03:43.519 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: he had only one shot, truly, to earn trust and to win, and indeed he did. So what we covered
00:03:43.559 --> 00:03:56.219 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: was slowing down to go fast is very critical. And you might have heard this expression, which I actually really like, I think it's from the military, is slow is smooth, and smooth is fast.
00:03:56.319 --> 00:04:07.229 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, that's part of the thing that Jerry learned, and we as the pre-sales team helped him with, and we talked about that on the show, is that slowing down in order to
00:04:07.529 --> 00:04:19.269 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: accelerate quickly is what was critical. So Jerry explained how it was challenging, but essential to slow down to uncover the true needs of the client, instead of just guessing.
00:04:19.399 --> 00:04:23.619 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And we are both convinced that if we had just guessed, we would not have won that deal.
00:04:23.739 --> 00:04:29.279 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, the approach that Jerry took, that we took together.
00:04:29.469 --> 00:04:38.609 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Which seemed like a long-shot opportunity, and turned it into a lucrative recurring revenue opportunity for him, and a launch pad for his successful
00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:50.089 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: career at Oracle and Salesforce. And, as I just learned last week, and I did not know this until we were on the show, that deal that Jerry and I worked on 25 years ago.
00:04:50.309 --> 00:04:57.809 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: apparently is… that client is still a client of Parametric Technology, even to this day.
00:04:57.809 --> 00:05:13.119 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, way long after both of us had moved on, and even now. The second thing we talked about very quickly here was to avoid the temptation to rush to a demo, so this is a similar concept, and today we're going to be diving into this more with Peter.
00:05:13.429 --> 00:05:23.299 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We touched on some practical strategies that sales or pre-sales can work on together to develop a solution presentation, or technical proof, whatever you want to call it.
00:05:23.359 --> 00:05:24.299 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: that…
00:05:24.329 --> 00:05:36.759 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: engages both technical and business decision makers, and provides value far beyond the quick-hit generic demo. So watch for more of that, as Peter will join us in just a little bit.
00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:46.669 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And then the power of partnership was the third main topic that Jerry and I talked about, how the pre-sales and sales duo builds the credibility, so he was a relatively new salesperson.
00:05:46.669 --> 00:06:00.659 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I was running the pre-sales team at the time, and the way that that credibility and working together can accelerate our careers and lead to long-term success. So, you could see all the details about this.
00:06:00.659 --> 00:06:06.879 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: show and access more resources at teamsalesdevelopment.com.
00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:14.249 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: look for the Events and Articles page. By the way, a couple things I want to point out on that page that you can check out.
00:06:14.249 --> 00:06:28.979 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: is, first of all, photos and video of the NASDAQ billboard event that I attended a week ago, Monday, where my, you know, team sales development was featured up on the NASDAQ billboard, so that's on the website now.
00:06:29.349 --> 00:06:37.589 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Also, check out the information about the Pre-Sales Collective podcast, which just, went up
00:06:37.679 --> 00:06:52.019 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: on the website last week as well. Now, what's interesting about that, this is… was recorded with Jack Cochran and Matthew James, and I have received dozens and dozens of connection requests and numerous
00:06:52.049 --> 00:07:11.489 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: comments about that interview. In fact, somebody just literally called me today, just out of the blue, which I give kudos to them for just picking up the phone and calling me, and they said, I just listened to that interview, and I was so inspired about it, I wanted to pick your brain about a couple things, because I'm trying to figure out a couple things that I need to do, so…
00:07:11.509 --> 00:07:19.319 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Check that out, it seems to have had a lot of impact, and I'd love to get your feedback, and certainly connect more on that. And then finally.
00:07:20.209 --> 00:07:34.999 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Please help us out with pre-registration for the upcoming Blue Talks compilation book. So, I, belong to Blue Talks. This is the organization that helped me get on the NASDAQ billboard and a bunch of other stuff.
00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:52.789 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: This is the, volume 12. It's a compilation book with a bunch of different authors. I'm gonna be in volume 14, and the presale page is up on my website. We'd love to get the pre-sales set up for this, where you can sign up for the book, which is going to feature
00:07:52.789 --> 00:08:01.679 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: a forward written by none other than John Gray, who's the author of Men Are From Mars and Women Are From Venus.
00:08:01.679 --> 00:08:15.759 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Now why that's significant is because I am a man from Mars. I live in Mars, Pennsylvania. So, but also, what I've done is I've written a chapter in the Business, Life, and the Universe, Volume 14,
00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:34.819 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: that discusses common disconnects when it comes to persuading stakeholders or others that are trying to make a decision. So that's the whole idea, was, you know, we communicate differently, what can we do to communicate better? And the name of my chapter is The Art of Persuasion, so how you can
00:08:35.349 --> 00:08:49.209 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Avoid common disconnects, or overcome them. So again, all of this, including where you can listen to the show and previous Making Seamless Sales shows, is available on the Events and Articles page of Team Sales Development.
00:08:49.749 --> 00:08:57.119 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Now, just a little background on how Peter and I met, which will set the stage for
00:08:57.829 --> 00:08:59.669 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: our discussion today.
00:09:00.029 --> 00:09:14.169 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Back around 2005, I believe it was, when Peter had just started with Great Demo, a couple years in, I was working with a company called ASK Learning. It was a global learning company.
00:09:14.359 --> 00:09:20.869 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And Peter and I, as it turns out, separately, because we didn't know each other then.
00:09:21.069 --> 00:09:29.329 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We, along with others, were both bidding on a contract to provide some consultative sales skills for a client.
00:09:29.579 --> 00:09:31.359 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Somehow.
00:09:31.689 --> 00:09:47.979 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I found out that Peter was also bidding on the contract, so I looked him up to see what he was all about, and out of curio… I think it was both curiosity and also maybe a bit of competitive strategy.
00:09:48.079 --> 00:09:56.429 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I went and somehow found him, and I liked what I saw, what he was doing, And I recall…
00:09:56.849 --> 00:10:11.019 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: trying to join his blog, email list, or whatever the equivalent was at the time, and I got blocked. And we joke about it now, but apparently, since I was with a competing pump company, I wasn't able to join. It was so interesting, because
00:10:11.129 --> 00:10:20.269 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: after that, I, you know, was just busy with doing whatever I was doing, and I kinda forgot about Peter and all that. And then, in 2016,
00:10:20.469 --> 00:10:35.119 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I got a note from Peter, and when he comes on, he can maybe help me remember. I think it was through LinkedIn, and Peter was asking me, essentially, if I wanted to generate more revenue, or something to that effect.
00:10:35.269 --> 00:10:46.959 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, being curious, and almost instantly recalling the previous time that I ran into Peter, I had a couple of thoughts. One is, what's the catch?
00:10:47.209 --> 00:10:50.499 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And two is, how much is this gonna cost me?
00:10:50.619 --> 00:10:55.129 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So I responded to Peter, and I told him that, you know.
00:10:55.289 --> 00:11:13.339 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: His, you know, he told me his offer was totally legitimate, we talked about it, had a great catch-up and a laugh over our previous run-in back in the day, and he told me that he was growing, and growing substantially, and had already added one person, was looking for some more help.
00:11:13.549 --> 00:11:31.699 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And he said that I came up on his radar. Now, potentially, and I'm not sure if we've 100% confirmed this yet, but due to work that I was doing, or because of my presence on LinkedIn or whatever, but it might have been through John Kerr, because I've been doing a lot with John Care and Peter and John
00:11:31.699 --> 00:11:37.319 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Collaborated a lot, because they kind of grew their businesses up somewhat together, and were complementary.
00:11:38.289 --> 00:11:56.759 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I was told by Peter that he had found me. So, once we talked and everything else, and I agreed that I definitely wanted to add that to my portfolio, and after seeing Peter in action a few times, and co-delivering a workshop, I came on board as a certified Great Demo Partner.
00:11:56.959 --> 00:12:16.729 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And I'm happy to report I still deliver it as part of my portfolio to this day, and it's one of the most enjoyable workshops that I deliver. It's very, very great. It's also quite profound, as you're gonna see when we talk to Peter after the break, in terms of the essence of it and the impact of it. So…
00:12:16.889 --> 00:12:32.169 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: this meshes with the critical timing. Meeting Peter and coming on board with Great Demo, meshes with the critical timing I described back in episode 5 of this podcast, when I had on Neil Shaw.
00:12:32.489 --> 00:12:38.339 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Now, what happened was, I had that long-term client.
00:12:38.629 --> 00:12:42.159 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: That after 10 years, in 2015,
00:12:42.259 --> 00:12:45.839 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: inadvertently, I believe, or so it seems, put
00:12:46.369 --> 00:12:54.479 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the proven sales opportunity snapshot methodology that I was implementing for them on hold. So my longtime client put it on hold.
00:12:55.039 --> 00:13:11.289 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I had just met Peter in 2016, and I had an opportunity in 2016 to get back in to this client that had put me on hold after working with them for 10 years. So, I used my newly mastered great demo methodology
00:13:11.349 --> 00:13:28.749 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: to plan and deliver what initially was supposed to… and you can tune into the previous episode to hear all the details, but it was supposed to be a 30-minute meeting, it wound up being 15 minutes because of the WebEx or whatever, and then, as it turned out, the guy was late, and so it wound up being a 10-minute meeting.
00:13:28.749 --> 00:13:38.609 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: that I had to win over this Senior VP of Sales, who had basically iced my solution a year and a half earlier.
00:13:38.699 --> 00:13:42.449 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And I was able to, with the great demo methodology.
00:13:42.599 --> 00:13:59.419 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: having done my homework and properly prepared what we're going to discuss, a situation slide, I covered that with him based on what the team had told me, and literally in 6 minutes, he said, that's exactly what I want, and go make it happen. And I was back in there again.
00:13:59.419 --> 00:14:09.609 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: because of Great Demo. And I've been back in there ever since, so this is now a 20-year-long running customer that I've had, which I got back in there because I…
00:14:09.609 --> 00:14:25.249 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: got to learn Gray Demo, and used it to connect with the SVP of Sales, who was basically, a year and a half earlier, my arch enemy, because he didn't want it. And by the way, he became a huge supporter of Sales Opportunity Snapshot. So, I also found the developer who created SOS,
00:14:25.459 --> 00:14:29.359 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: app for me, because Peter had given me a great demo lead.
00:14:29.959 --> 00:14:33.679 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: New, a new lead, that turned out to be a
00:14:33.849 --> 00:14:51.409 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: D365 solution provider, and I needed to develop that app for this customer that I was now back into. So, the rest is history. Anil Shah, who's in that episode at Cloud Fronts, was the one that did the development. So, the moral of the story is, you never know when you run into somebody later in your career that
00:14:51.409 --> 00:15:03.289 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you ran into previously, and where those connections will take you could be quite interesting. So, after the break, we're gonna get Peter on here, and we're gonna dive into his wisdom.
00:15:03.329 --> 00:15:10.559 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Around all things having to do with great demo, doing discovery, and suspending disbelief. We'll see you right after the break.
00:17:21.790 --> 00:17:28.529 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Alright, everybody, welcome back, and it is my pleasure to introduce Peter Cohan.
00:17:29.470 --> 00:17:34.390 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Peter, if you can come on… on to the video and unmute.
00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:36.029 core: I should be there.
00:17:36.030 --> 00:17:46.169 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: There you are! Hello there, Peter. So this is my long-time Grade Demo partner and colleague, and just a quick introduction, and this is the way that,
00:17:46.170 --> 00:17:56.490 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Peter loves to use this touchline, so he suggested it for the introduction for him. Have you ever seen a bad software demo or suffered insufficient discovery?
00:17:56.710 --> 00:18:04.140 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Welcome, Peter Cohan, the founder and author of Great Demo, Doing Discovery, and as I mentioned before, Suspending Disbelief.
00:18:04.290 --> 00:18:20.549 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Peter helps software organizations achieve their pre-sales, sales, and marketing objectives by making their discovery conversations competitively outstanding, and their demos crisp, compelling, and surprisingly effective.
00:18:20.790 --> 00:18:39.140 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Peter has experience as an individual contributor, manager, and C-level team member in marketing, sales, and business development, and he's been and continues to be a prospect and, importantly, a customer of various technologies or other things that he consumes. So, Peter, welcome to the Making Seamless Sales show.
00:18:39.790 --> 00:18:41.780 core: Many thanks, and man, I sound good!
00:18:41.780 --> 00:18:44.489 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Of course, because you are.
00:18:44.730 --> 00:18:48.049 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: One of the… one of the goats, right? All right.
00:18:48.630 --> 00:18:50.000 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Do you remember what.
00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:54.269 core: Do goat meant something else entirely? Yes. Like, the opposite of goat?
00:18:54.270 --> 00:19:09.369 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Right, that's… there's a lot of those things that have changed their meaning over the years, haven't they? So just to get us started, in case some of the audience somehow or another doesn't know who you are, just briefly describe kind of how you got to where you're at in your current focus.
00:19:09.950 --> 00:19:20.199 core: How I got to our… well, I was born in a log cabin in 1862. Wait, that's the wrong… that's the wrong origin story. In a nutshell, I was the customer
00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:30.290 core: buying a CRM system a number of years ago, and as a result of being a customer, I suddenly had the scales fall from my eyes with respect to
00:19:30.310 --> 00:19:42.259 core: organizations, vendors who are doing insufficient discovery and then inflicting 2-hour or longer demos on their customers, in this case, me. And as a result of doing this.
00:19:42.310 --> 00:19:55.999 core: or I should say, experiencing this, I got the team together and said, hey guys, what'd you think about the demos we just suffered through? And it was 5 vendors, each with a 2-hour demo. And what… what do you think they said? What do you think the team said?
00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:58.080 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: There's a lot of work to do there.
00:19:58.500 --> 00:20:06.989 core: They said things like, it was awful, it was terrible, they didn't understand our needs at all, it was linear, it was painful, they never got to the stuff we needed to see.
00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:25.809 core: And then I said, hey guys, I've got bad news. We have been doing the same thing to our prospects and customers. We gotta get to the point early in the demos, we've got to align the demos for the specific job titles that are in the room, or the virtual room. We have to do the last thing first.
00:20:25.930 --> 00:20:28.309 core: And that's how the methodology was born.
00:20:29.190 --> 00:20:48.120 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Awesome, excellent. So, I think you heard some of my introduction there, and we don't need to go into the gory details, but, one thing that you did say that in the, that, that you did cover in your, the book about the suspending disbelief and the stories and all those things was.
00:20:48.120 --> 00:21:02.750 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The origin of Harbor Tour, and that's going to be one of my first discussion points and questions here, so maybe just set us up a little bit with that story, which is also an example and an excerpt from your book, so that we can… when we talk about Harbor Tour, everybody knows what we're talking about.
00:21:03.220 --> 00:21:22.190 core: Yeah, so I'm… I'll go a little bit sideways here first, and then I'll… I'll retell that. So, I was having a conversation with a… actually, a customer a few days ago, and the person said something to the effect of, and everybody has to learn the golden
00:21:22.260 --> 00:21:34.880 core: demo, the golden demo. And every time I hear that phrase, I cringe, because what it says is that everybody's gonna learn that demo, and what that means is everybody's gonna do what?
00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:36.769 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The same demo.
00:21:36.770 --> 00:21:50.599 core: They're going to repeat that demo over and over and over, because it's the demo they know, and it's a demo in many cases they've been told to do, in almost every situation. So, this is 162 years ago,
00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:53.799 core: I'm in Germany, doing a great demo workshop.
00:21:53.870 --> 00:21:59.210 core: And I'm describing a typical, traditional demo, long, linear demo.
00:21:59.260 --> 00:22:13.480 core: And as I'm partway through it, a woman in the front jumps up, literally jumps up, and says, you mean Zee Harbor Tour! And I looked at her quizzically and said, I'm sorry, I've never heard this term before, and she says, you know.
00:22:13.500 --> 00:22:29.830 core: You take… she actually sat in like this. She says, you know, you take Z customer, you put them on the boat, they cannot get off, and she says, then, you drive them around the harbor for 3 hours, continually asking them, have you seen anything you like so far?
00:22:29.830 --> 00:22:39.500 core: And everybody in the room started to laugh, and in the German tradition, they were knocking their knuckles on the tables because it was something very meaningful to them.
00:22:39.500 --> 00:22:56.160 core: And I said, do you mind if I harvest that term? That is terrific. It's the perfect description of a painful, linear, traditional demo. You're stuck in that demo, you can't leave, and you're not seeing anything you're interested in. It would be like… it would be like going to San Francisco.
00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:07.510 core: boarding a tour boat and being driven around for 3 hours in the thick fog. Yes, you're stuck on the boat. You're stuck on the boat. So, yeah.
00:23:07.510 --> 00:23:20.249 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, with that in mind, then, so now everybody understands what it is and can probably start to understand a little bit about what the challenges are, but let's talk about what are the causes for and the problems with doing
00:23:20.250 --> 00:23:36.299 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: that default harbor tour, which again, you said golden demo, another one of those terms that's got the opposite meaning now. I mean, it intends to be good, but it's actually something that could be very, very dangerous, let's say. So, what about that, and where the salesperson kicks off the meeting and says.
00:23:36.590 --> 00:23:41.560 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: let my SE take it away, and off they go with the Z Harbor Tour or Z Golden Demo.
00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:59.050 core: Well, the biggest mistake there is no discovery, and let's talk about that for a moment, because in the absence of sufficient discovery, how can you possibly do anything other than either, well, we have a solution, and Art knows, a vision generation demo
00:23:59.050 --> 00:24:09.119 core: potentially with the vision… the menu approach method. But in the absence of discovery, you can't go any deeper than literally about 6 minutes. It's just… you're guessing, and…
00:24:09.410 --> 00:24:14.050 core: Guessing is like that word assume, which if you break it apart appropriately.
00:24:14.080 --> 00:24:16.290 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: gives you the right answer. So…
00:24:16.540 --> 00:24:19.940 core: the… discovery,
00:24:20.380 --> 00:24:43.290 core: Discovery today is largely insufficient. I've and Art have both listened to probably hundreds, maybe more, discovery calls, and the average discovery call is scheduled for 30 minutes. There's 5 minutes of rapport, as in, hey, looks like you've got photographs behind you on the wall, tell me about them.
00:24:44.590 --> 00:24:52.100 core: Confirmation of the prospect's major pain. I understand you said you're looking for a CRM system.
00:24:52.250 --> 00:25:06.189 core: discussion of a little bit of the required tech stack. Are you looking for a SaaS solution, and do you have, or would you prefer something on your own servers? How do you feel about those kinds of things? And that's it.
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:15.029 core: You just went through a discovery call, you're now at about the 12 to 15 minute mark, and what do you think that the sales team does at that point?
00:25:15.660 --> 00:25:18.630 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, just starts to show all the stuff, of course.
00:25:18.630 --> 00:25:19.779 core: They start, they go through a…
00:25:19.780 --> 00:25:21.320 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Great, it's great stuff.
00:25:21.620 --> 00:25:37.569 core: corporate overview presentation for about, you know, 5 to 7 minutes, and then they go through a product overview presentation and or a demo to consume the balance of that 30 minutes. And people wonder why demos are out of alignment. So…
00:25:37.570 --> 00:25:44.540 core: Going back into discovery, you've got to understand, for each individual job title that is significant.
00:25:44.910 --> 00:25:50.770 core: what their situation is. And in Great Demo, we use a construct called a situation slide.
00:25:50.770 --> 00:26:05.679 core: which enables us to capture the key elements of situational information that we need to be able to put together and deliver a demo that's really going to resonate with each of those individual job titles. And just to give you a sense.
00:26:05.760 --> 00:26:16.670 core: If you were looking at a CRM system, there are easily 13 distinct job titles that might be involved, ranging from CRO to salesperson.
00:26:16.680 --> 00:26:36.080 core: from head of pre-sales to pre-sales IC, to enablement and operations, or sales operations, to marketing head to marketing player, and on and on. So, it's critically important to get the discovery elements down first. Let me just pause there and see what you think.
00:26:36.080 --> 00:26:54.350 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Well, that's perfect, and we'll get to the situation slide a little bit more after the break, but, you talked about resonating with the audience stakeholders and the different types of stakeholders, so what is the challenge of that and the difficulty of even closing or getting them to take action?
00:26:54.350 --> 00:26:59.680 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: If, discovery had not been done, and then this show-up-and-throw-up demo happens.
00:27:00.080 --> 00:27:12.969 core: Well, let me get… let's go back to the, the earth-shattering experience that we suffered through. At that time, I was leading an organization of about 100 people, and I was also leading sales and renewals, if you will.
00:27:12.980 --> 00:27:28.679 core: And so, what I needed out of a CRM system were basically three things. I need to see this quarter's forecast, I need to see the pipeline going forward, and I need to see the key deals, the key opportunities to see whether or not people needed help, needed coaching whatsoever.
00:27:29.710 --> 00:27:49.510 core: two hours of demos from each of these five vendors. I never saw those screens. They all started with, let me show you how to enter a record into the CRM system. Let me show you how to clone that record and add another person and add some notes. Let's run a marketing campaign. Let's take a look at things from sales. Never saw
00:27:49.510 --> 00:27:54.600 core: the deliverables that I needed. So… I was the leader.
00:27:54.730 --> 00:28:13.219 core: they never satisfied my needs. What's the probability they're gonna get an order from me and be able to quote-unquote close the business? And by the way, only the customer can actually close the business. That's right. Yeah, and so in the meantime, waste of their time, waste of your time, bad first impression. I mean, the list goes on. It's… there's a lot of damage that could be done.
00:28:13.300 --> 00:28:22.590 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: When the proper discovery isn't done, and recognizing who the stakeholder is that you're… you're talking with to help them through their buying process and what they're trying to do.
00:28:22.900 --> 00:28:26.389 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Very briefly, because we're about to come up to…
00:28:26.410 --> 00:28:45.729 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: a break here. What about when stories are attempted that don't land, or aren't even stories, per se? And we could probably talk about this more after the break in terms of an example, or what is a story, but very briefly, what is the impact of that, especially with your Suspending Disbelief book that you've got now?
00:28:46.210 --> 00:28:54.129 core: I did a post a week or two ago that said something to the effect of, we're telling lots of stories, but not getting the business.
00:28:54.140 --> 00:29:09.659 core: And the reason, the major reason is, I think people's understanding and definition of what a good telling, excuse me, compelling story is, is inaccurate. A, a feature, benefit, value statement is not a story.
00:29:09.660 --> 00:29:15.559 core: And we come back from break, let's talk about this in a little more detail. It's definitely worth peeling back the layers.
00:29:15.560 --> 00:29:20.289 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: That sounds like a plan. Alright, we'll be back in about 2 minutes with Peter Cohan.
00:31:20.300 --> 00:31:30.420 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Welcome back, everybody. We're here with Peter Cohan, author of The Great Demo, Doing Discovery and Suspending Disbelief.
00:31:30.550 --> 00:31:43.870 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And what we were talking about is the challenges of harbor tours and not doing proper discovery. So, Peter, let's go ahead and continue with the idea that you introduced in the previous segment.
00:31:43.990 --> 00:31:51.069 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Which was the idea of, and am I seeing you? Yes, I'm seeing you here, alright.
00:31:51.130 --> 00:31:55.710 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the idea of the situation slide. So, what are some of the ways that
00:31:55.750 --> 00:32:02.080 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We can communicate value to the business decision makers and technical decision makers, connecting
00:32:02.080 --> 00:32:17.629 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the product and business results, and the way the situation slide can help that as both the outcome of discovery and the start of the demo, and perhaps reviewing what the components of the situation slide are would be helpful for the audience in case they don't know it.
00:32:18.340 --> 00:32:22.010 core: Sure, so, great demo situation slide,
00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:38.339 core: focuses on an individual job title and his or her situation, hence the term situation slide. So if you've got a head of sales, and, for example, a mid-sized SaaS software company, that would be the job title in the industry.
00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:48.839 core: The next level, or the next important thing, is what is that person's top-level challenge? What… how would… how do they know at the end of the year that they have achieved success?
00:32:48.840 --> 00:33:01.279 core: So in the case of a head of sales, it's most likely, likely hitting their numbers on a quarterly and annual basis. And the inability to do so is what makes it a critical business issue.
00:33:01.470 --> 00:33:19.900 core: Below that are the problems or reasons that are getting in the way of making it a challenge. So, insufficient leads, poor demos, poor discovery, poor sales process, not enabling a buyer, those could all be problems or reasons that contribute to his or her difficulty in making the numbers.
00:33:20.060 --> 00:33:27.440 core: Below that are the specific capabilities that this person feels or says that they need to solve the problem.
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:40.419 core: For example, it could be, sales skills training, it could be demo skills training, it could be discovery skills training, it could be whatever, but those are the capabilities that are discussed and agreed upon with the prospect.
00:33:40.470 --> 00:33:44.529 core: of what he or she feels he needs, they need.
00:33:44.670 --> 00:34:02.569 core: The next is the value associated with making the change. We call that the delta. It's the difference between the way things are currently and the way things are desired to be or need to be with a solution in place. And then the final element, a great name for a movie, the fifth element, is…
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:21.050 core: the timeline, a critical date. I date by when the prospect needs to have a solution in place, and the driving force that is behind it. And ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, I have to share with you that a critical date is not your end of quarter, it's the prospect's critical date.
00:34:22.110 --> 00:34:34.499 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Right, now, so, if those are… and, you know, as everybody thinks about that, those are some of the elements of, perhaps, some methodologies that you're already using, and this puts it all into a succinct way for…
00:34:34.690 --> 00:34:53.210 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: what I would call the target of discovery. So this situation slide should be what discovery results in understanding, and then help us out with what that is… how that helps then set up for preparation of the demo, and then actual presentation of the demo.
00:34:53.679 --> 00:35:13.929 core: Well, let's start, yeah, let's start with the specific capabilities, because the list of specific capabilities are exactly that. It's not, and I need a tool, it's what reports, what deliverables do I need out of this software package? So, going back to the CRM system in my personal experience, I said it was 3 sets of information.
00:35:13.929 --> 00:35:24.899 core: I needed dashboards or reports for the current forecast, the pipeline, and the key deals. That's what I needed out of the system. Those are the specific capabilities that I wanted to see
00:35:24.899 --> 00:35:36.709 core: And the person showing me a demo, if he wants my business, should show those 3 things right up front. Satisfy what I'm looking for, make sure that I'm comfortable that
00:35:36.709 --> 00:35:48.759 core: And then, you know what? He or she may be done with the demo for me, because that's all I need to see. Let me share a story. Are you familiar… are you familiar with,
00:35:48.969 --> 00:35:49.779 core: Well…
00:35:50.549 --> 00:36:08.499 core: the way I like to introduce this story is, are you interested in hearing the true stories related to me by a comrade, of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory? Of course, Peter, please. It's called The Credit Card Story, and it's a gentleman that actually went through one of the workshops that we taught.
00:36:08.600 --> 00:36:27.880 core: He was in oil and gas, first name was Tim, and he was meeting with a small customer up in Calgary, but an important customer, a sizable opportunity. He'd done his job in Discovery, and was a face-to-face meeting with the CEO of this little company, and a few members of the CEO's team.
00:36:27.980 --> 00:36:39.960 core: Tim started the demo by reviewing the situation slide information, which is what we recommend. The CEO said, yep, you're spot on, and in fact, things are even worse now than they were before.
00:36:40.020 --> 00:36:57.339 core: Tim said, I understand. And then Tim immediately showed, I think it was 3 dashboards that the CEO wanted and needed to basically track his progress, measure his results, and see what was going on. And his CEO took his wallet out of his pocket.
00:36:57.500 --> 00:37:06.329 core: opened it up, took out a credit card, slid it across the table to Tim. Tim looked at it.
00:37:06.470 --> 00:37:07.410 core: He thought…
00:37:07.540 --> 00:37:21.820 core: I've got this. This sale is done. However, he got overexcited. He could have just… and he should have just finished that… the demo at that point, but he didn't. He's thought, wow.
00:37:22.020 --> 00:37:41.719 core: I've got so much more cool stuff to show the CEO, and he did. He showed this capability and that capability, and he found it very odd, Tim did, that as he showed more and more, the CEO had started with a big smile, and it got smaller and smaller, and began to turn downwards into a frown.
00:37:41.720 --> 00:37:53.670 core: In fact, after a few minutes, the CEO reached back out across the table and gently drew his credit card back, put it in his wallet, and put it away.
00:37:53.920 --> 00:38:10.869 core: No sale. So what's the moral there? By the way, that's… I love that story. That's called the credit card story. It's in Suspending Disbelief, which everybody should have and read, because it's a fast, simple way to get 40-some-odd years of experience under your belt, and in your brain.
00:38:11.640 --> 00:38:13.340 core: So what's the moral of the story?
00:38:14.050 --> 00:38:27.759 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, I mean, it goes back to specific capabilities. One of the hardest things to do is not to know what to put into the demo, it's what to take out of the demo. And we want to put everything in it, so specific capabilities help with
00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:52.289 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: what should come out so that we keep in only the essence of what's needed. And you know, it's funny, because up until the point where the credit card started to be withdrawn, that was exactly the situation that I was in that I was talking about at the first segment, because I, in 6 minutes, this SVP of sales said, that's exactly what I need now, go make it happen with the team, you know? And I knew not to continue talking. In fact.
00:38:52.290 --> 00:39:07.730 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: funny part of that story is I'd actually mocked up, something that I couldn't have shown him more detail if he had wanted it. So, I'm kind of glad he didn't ask more questions, but that's… that's the essence of it. Don't oversell. Don't sell past the sale. That's a big.
00:39:07.730 --> 00:39:08.340 core: Yeah, stop.
00:39:08.340 --> 00:39:09.100 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: lesson.
00:39:09.340 --> 00:39:15.179 core: I think it was, Michael Bosworth who coined the term, stop selling when the customer is ready to buy.
00:39:15.180 --> 00:39:16.759 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: But there's another…
00:39:16.760 --> 00:39:26.890 core: Another lesson, there's another lesson here, and why I had people ask this question, so why did the CEO drag the credit card back?
00:39:27.180 --> 00:39:42.110 core: And the answer is, because the more that Tim showed in that demo, the more Tim was buying it back. In other words, he was showing capabilities that the CEO didn't need and didn't want to pay for.
00:39:42.220 --> 00:39:50.029 core: And the CEO reached the, basically had a… reached the point where he thought, I'm paying too much for this.
00:39:50.520 --> 00:39:57.090 core: For those few capabilities, and I'm not gonna use all this other stuff, so I'm not gonna buy it.
00:39:57.290 --> 00:39:57.650 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah. So…
00:39:57.650 --> 00:40:05.149 core: buying… showing things that the customer doesn't need is called… is also known as buying it back. Yeah.
00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:11.440 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We've called it… we've called it over, you know, overkill, as well. It's like, I don't need all this stuff. Why… now…
00:40:11.860 --> 00:40:18.570 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I feel like I'm paying too much for all this stuff, you know, and so… Yes. …we don't want to be in that situation.
00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:30.990 core: And that is… and that is where you will actually hear prospects say, when it's time to negotiate that license agreement, you know, you showed us a lot of stuff we're not gonna use, so…
00:40:31.190 --> 00:40:33.919 core: You need to give us a discount. Yeah.
00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:51.610 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Now, what… so, the situation slide isn't just for pre-sales, though, and it's not just about knowing how to do the demo. How does it help with the, you know, pre-sales and sales being on the same page, for example? And even divide and conquering with different levels and types of stakeholders?
00:40:52.220 --> 00:41:12.019 core: So, it literally puts the selling team on the same page, whether it's a single individual or a team of 20, you're able to work from the same simple construct to understand, oh, well, for this demo, for this person, here's what we need to show, and we're holding everything else in reserve. For this person.
00:41:12.020 --> 00:41:19.619 core: Same company, but different part of the demo meeting, or a different demo. Here's what we need to show, and we hold all this stuff back.
00:41:19.690 --> 00:41:20.670 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So…
00:41:20.670 --> 00:41:35.209 core: You know, the example would be, again, a CRO needs to see certain reports. Marketing folks, they need to see campaigns and lead gen and related type things totally different than what a CRO or the sales side of the house needs.
00:41:36.580 --> 00:41:52.920 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, when it comes to the situation slide, then, it's about that person, it's about what their critical business issue is, the problems and reasons are addressed during the demo, showing just the specific capabilities, obviously talking about the business benefit they're getting out of it.
00:41:52.920 --> 00:42:06.709 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Where… you mentioned that a critical date is not the end of our quarter. Where does that come in, and what does that help to do to drive the deal forward and get some action on the part of the stakeholder?
00:42:06.980 --> 00:42:13.910 core: Once you know a prospect's critical date, you are able to work backwards in time from that date
00:42:14.150 --> 00:42:29.849 core: to, manage implementation, training, rollout, to put that on a timeline, a calendar, so that you and your prospect then can march together. This is really a key element of buyer enablement. You can march together towards
00:42:29.850 --> 00:42:37.540 core: enabling that prospect to achieve that critical date. So, to give a small example, the prospect says, you know, we,
00:42:38.200 --> 00:42:56.579 core: if we don't, if we… if we don't have a new solution in place by the end of the year, we're going to have to pay for another year's license of the old system. And you say, okay, terrific, so we need to have a solution in place by the end of the year. Let's back up a couple of weeks from that, so that we're really ready to go in mid-December.
00:42:56.610 --> 00:43:20.779 core: And then you come back, because nobody's going to do anything for the last two weeks of the year, except for desperate salespeople. And then you can move back, well, let's talk about how long it takes to train people, let's talk about moving the data over, let's talk about implementation, gee, there's configuration to take place. Oh, in order for you to go live on December 15th, it looks like we actually need to have the licenses done by October 15th.
00:43:20.780 --> 00:43:21.420 core: 15th.
00:43:21.420 --> 00:43:26.809 core: Why, that's 13 days from now. And now you have a mutual plan on how to move forward.
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:41.249 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Now, that should be gold to every salesperson listening, because this is the way that you can compel your buyer. You said it earlier, Peter, we don't close them, they close themselves. So whoever the stakeholder is, help them realize.
00:43:41.250 --> 00:43:47.939 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: That in order to get to their critical date, which was found out in discovery, confirmed in the situation slide.
00:43:47.940 --> 00:44:03.429 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: and then brought up as the way to move them forward, that allows you, as the salesperson, to get a close that addresses their needs, and that will address your needs. So that alone is something that, as far as the situation slide for sales.
00:44:03.430 --> 00:44:08.809 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: That's… that is… is a great way to compel action on the part of the buyer.
00:44:09.200 --> 00:44:24.310 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We only have about a minute left here, Peter. Any concluding remarks, and then how to contact you? Your stuff, your contact information will also be in the show notes and all that, but, what would you like to wrap this up with, in the last minute here, and how to contact you?
00:44:25.500 --> 00:44:35.580 core: Well, contacting me is easy and direct. We have a greatdemo.com website, and of course, I can be reached directly at p. Cohan, P-C-O-H-A-N, at GreatDemo.com.
00:44:35.630 --> 00:44:47.790 core: I would also say the following. I am at a point in my career where I am more than happy to coach people individually, to help folks, to bounce ideas off of people. I've been doing this rather frequently.
00:44:47.790 --> 00:45:03.850 core: If you've got a question about material in any of my books, if you've got a question about any of the training that you may have experienced or undergone for a great demo during discovery, if you have an idea that you'd like to bounce, I am available for you. Just reach out, happy to try to help.
00:45:04.200 --> 00:45:14.590 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yes, and again, Peter, thank you so much, not only for being here, but just being a great partner, and allowing me to highlight some of the great demo methodology as part of that whole
00:45:14.630 --> 00:45:28.500 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: portfolio of offerings and, contributing to the book, and we're looking forward to hearing more and seeing more. So, thanks, and everybody, follow Peter, take him up on his offer. You won't regret it. It's gonna be great.
00:45:28.690 --> 00:45:29.770 core: Thanks so much, Peter.
00:45:30.270 --> 00:45:32.480 core: Thanks, folks. Bye now. Thanks, Art.
00:47:16.380 --> 00:47:22.899 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Welcome back, everybody, and again, thank you so much to Peter for the insights, and…
00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:43.030 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: reinforcements regarding the proper way to do discovery, and then use that to help formulate the demo and incorporate stories. So for this segment, as any of you who are frequent viewers know, I call it Dear Artie, which I know is a little corny, but it's after… it's patterned after the
00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:49.330 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: old newspaper columnist, Dear Abby, so that's why I came up with Dear Artie, because she…
00:47:49.460 --> 00:47:55.510 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Talked about and answered Viewers' questions about life.
00:47:55.640 --> 00:47:58.910 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And I'm doing this to answer
00:47:59.120 --> 00:48:14.939 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: viewer and listeners' questions about sales. So, I went through my archives, and I found some that were directly related to our topic that can help to further explore a bit of what Peter and I just covered.
00:48:14.980 --> 00:48:21.299 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The first question is, if the harbor tour approach is so problematic.
00:48:21.470 --> 00:48:28.400 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: How do you get sales reps to actually do the discovery work instead of just defaulting to handing off to the SE?
00:48:28.860 --> 00:48:39.729 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Now, this is one that involves a couple different levels. The one thing is, is that management really needs to change the incentive structure and provide proper training.
00:48:39.790 --> 00:48:52.380 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: when I shared last week with Jerry Timmis that when I was in charge of the pre-sales resources at Parametric Technology, we were subscribing at that time to MEDIC, that's where it was invented.
00:48:52.380 --> 00:49:04.439 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And I was given permission by management to ask for that information for the sole purpose that it would avoid harbor tours. Now, we didn't call them harbor tours then, we didn't know about that.
00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:15.990 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We just were doing the right things, but it has to be an incentive structure, and then proper training, and then a commitment that this is something that's gonna be used to help everybody.
00:49:15.990 --> 00:49:26.140 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I also advocate that pre-sales needs to sell sales on the idea of doing discovery. Yes, sell your salesperson, so if you're in pre-sales.
00:49:26.290 --> 00:49:30.130 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: This is what you can help sales do, which will help them.
00:49:30.140 --> 00:49:40.969 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I have an article on my webpage, if you go, again, to teamsalesdevelopment.com, to the events and articles page, there is an article that I wrote, and I've just recently updated it.
00:49:40.970 --> 00:49:58.839 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: called Selling Discovery, and it's about the way and some methods you can use to sell that internally, and sometimes we need to sell it to the client, because they are sometimes the ones, as we saw last week, who are insisting on a harbor tour. They don't even know what they're asking for, and they're like, I just want to see the product.
00:49:58.860 --> 00:50:05.979 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And then we tend to go, okay, we'll just show you the product. So that's… that can be dangerous, as we've talked about today.
00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:17.149 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So many sales reps also avoid discovery because they may lack the confidence in their technical knowledge, or they fear that they'll say something wrong. This is where the cross-functional
00:50:17.150 --> 00:50:35.589 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: teams, the SEs and the AMs working together seamlessly, and cross-functional training, such as what we provide, including great demo as part of it, and other things, where sales can learn enough technical context to have a meaningful discovery, and
00:50:35.590 --> 00:50:55.300 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: SEs, or pre-sales, learn the business impact questions to ask. So, discovery really does need to be a required gate in the sales process, or better yet, in the equipping the buyer with their process, and no demo without a completed qualification and discovery summary
00:50:55.320 --> 00:51:05.019 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: aka the situation slide, should be delivered. It's a high bar to set, but it's very important. Without addressing this core issue.
00:51:05.020 --> 00:51:17.400 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you'll keep getting some… the same dysfunctional handoffs. Sales reps need to understand that discovery is not just nice to have, it's what separates successful deals from technical wins that go nowhere.
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:27.310 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And by the way, everybody, SEs are wonderful and great and amazing, but they can't rescue every poorly qualified opportunity or discovery that's missing.
00:51:27.620 --> 00:51:29.939 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: That's gonna catch up with you eventually.
00:51:30.220 --> 00:51:33.499 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, the second question is,
00:51:33.880 --> 00:51:36.280 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Let me skip down here for a second here.
00:51:36.860 --> 00:51:49.790 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: On that same note, as far as partnership, if SEs are naturally trusted by customers, and I like to say that SEs are like the bartender, or like the hairdresser, you know, people will tell them anything.
00:51:50.060 --> 00:52:06.200 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: SEs are like that, and so if SEs are naturally trusted by customers like bartenders, how do you prevent them from accidentally undermining the sales process by being too helpful or giving away too much information? And this is why sometimes sales…
00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:25.819 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: again, doesn't like to have pre-sales involved in very early discovery. And I'm not advocating that it should… that pre-sales needs to get involved in early discovery all the time. There is sometimes too much involvement early on. It has to be properly qualified as a deal that's, you know.
00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:41.020 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: confirmed to be positive for your company, and that the client is serious enough that they want to move forward, and that you've discovered enough information to get the discussion started. So, the idea here is that this is where the situation slide becomes critical.
00:52:41.200 --> 00:52:54.819 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The situation slide, as outlined by Peter and In The Great Demo Methodology, keeps everybody focused on the agreed-upon business outcome. Remember, it's a business outcome, critical business issue, for each stakeholder.
00:52:54.820 --> 00:53:06.579 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The other thing that's interesting about that is, and I say this all the time about sales teams working from the top down and the bottom up and intersecting very healthily at the middle, is that we.
00:53:06.740 --> 00:53:20.469 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: oftentimes have a view of the client they can't even have themselves. They are so, siloed themselves, or so focused just on what's going on for that day, or at that moment, they often don't see the bigger picture.
00:53:20.470 --> 00:53:36.890 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So by connecting and finding out, what is this person doing, and how is that connected with this? And in Peter's Doing Discovery book, there's a lot about implication questions and questions that can lead to how others are affected, or a great question to ask is.
00:53:36.890 --> 00:53:45.240 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: If this doesn't happen, or this doesn't get fixed, who is impacted by it? So what we wind up doing as a sales team, and again, both
00:53:45.240 --> 00:53:55.179 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Pre-sales and sales working together as we move through technical and business discovery, we get to figure out what that pyramid of needs looks like.
00:53:55.240 --> 00:54:13.600 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And as a result, we are providing a great service to our clients. I've laid out, a pyramid of needs before with some of the interconnections, and the client's like, that's amazing, can I, like, keep that? I'm like, yeah, that's your… that's you. That's yours. So yes, you can keep that. So, this is something that we could do.
00:54:13.730 --> 00:54:28.540 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Therefore, a couple suggestions is, again, situation slide, use that as a central grounding for everybody. It keeps everybody focused on the agreed-upon business outcomes, and that's the only thing that matters, by the way, is the business outcomes.
00:54:28.540 --> 00:54:43.900 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We've talked about this before many times, and you've seen me talk about this on some of my other talks. Our solutions have no inherent value. It's only about the perception of value in the eyes of the buyer, and that is going to be based on their personal outcomes
00:54:43.930 --> 00:54:51.120 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: their business outcomes, and even the outcomes, you know, in terms of the team. So, SEs.
00:54:51.590 --> 00:55:03.209 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We want to train SEs to redirect technical curiosity that they have back to business impact. Always asking the question of, so what, or what does this do for them, or why would they care about it?
00:55:03.350 --> 00:55:05.640 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, you know, things like…
00:55:06.240 --> 00:55:18.380 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: If somebody asks a technical question, we could say, that's a great technical question, yes, we can do that, so you can acknowledge the technology capability. More importantly, how would that capability help you achieve
00:55:18.410 --> 00:55:29.740 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the business or return on investment targets we discussed. So, part of our job is, even during a demo, is if there's a question that comes up, redirect it back to what those business needs are.
00:55:29.780 --> 00:55:33.170 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And the key is sales leveraging
00:55:33.420 --> 00:55:39.050 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the trust of the client in the SE in order to advance the sale together.
00:55:39.180 --> 00:55:42.240 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Not just about satisfying technical curiosity.
00:55:42.390 --> 00:55:56.039 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So whereas the SEs often get pulled into technical rabbit holes because they want to be more helpful, this can derail the business conversation. So the goal is to use that trusted advisor status strategically.
00:55:56.480 --> 00:56:09.360 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: and use the situation slides strategically as the outcome of discovery, and the plan for how you will work together to move forward with the customer's needs. Then…
00:56:09.610 --> 00:56:18.320 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you can share concerns and objections with the SE, and they won't, you know… with SE, sometimes they don't want to tell the sales reps, but this intelligent needs to flow back.
00:56:18.380 --> 00:56:29.580 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So that we can advance the opportunity, not just solve technical puzzles. So, there's a couple of questions and a few responses that you could take away what you want to in terms of the goodness.
00:56:29.580 --> 00:56:41.289 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: how that applies to your situation. So, that's gonna do it for today's show as we begin to wrap up here. Thanks again to Peter Cohan for sharing his ideas. Please check out the resources on the show page.
00:56:41.290 --> 00:56:58.049 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Before you go, again, check out the Team Sales Development website, including the events page, for details about previous and upcoming events. Contact me to discuss your plans for sales kickoff, seminars, other events to improve your sales results for your team.
00:56:58.050 --> 00:57:06.490 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I offer keynotes, seminars, workshops, and CRM-integrated tools that are proven to help sales sell, and help avoid the rush to demo.
00:57:06.880 --> 00:57:09.820 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Please like, share, subscribe, and comment on the show.
00:57:09.890 --> 00:57:23.390 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Listen to the replays on your favorite channel or podcast streaming service, and then join me next week at 7pm Eastern, when I talk with Yumi Peterson, formerly of Palo Alto Networks, now with Cato Networks.
00:57:23.390 --> 00:57:32.350 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: as we talk about her experiences in running SDR, BDR teams and field sales, and the way that those teams have been able to
00:57:32.410 --> 00:57:34.740 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Work with pre-sales in a way that
00:57:34.820 --> 00:57:44.950 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: moves the sale forward quickly and achieves the sales outcomes, her critical business issue. Thanks again, everybody. Have a great week. We'll see you next week. Take care.
00:57:45.260 --> 00:57:45.930 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Bye-bye.
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