🎙️In this episode, Jerry Timmis takes us back to his early days as a new Account Manager, when he and Art faced a high-stakes opportunity with a major client—an experience that became a cornerstone story and inspiration for Art's Making SEAMless Sales book, now celebrating its one-year anniversary, and helped shape Jerry's career as a successful Account Executive at Oracle and Salesforce.
✅ Learn how to win even when you’re late to the deal. We’ll share the Smiths Industries story from the book—how shifting from a rushed demo to a discovery-first approach changed everything and turned a long-shot opportunity into a win.
✅ Avoid the “Harbor Tour Demo” trap. You’ll hear practical lessons on tailoring solutions, earning executive buy-in, and steering clear of the generic product pitch that so many sales teams still fall into.
✅ Accelerate your career through partnership. We’ll explore how the SE-AM duo can elevate credibility with clients, fast-track your growth, and set you up for long-term success—whether you’re just starting out or looking to level up.
🔹 In this episode, we take you inside a high-stakes sales moment at Smiths Industries—where the team walked into the deal late, with competitors already ahead, and just one shot to impress. Instead of rushing into a generic “Harbor Tour Demo,” they made a bold move: slowing down for discovery. That choice not only changed the client’s perception but ultimately won the business. You’ll hear firsthand how discovery shifted the dynamic, unlocked executive engagement, and set the foundation for long-term trust.
🔹 Beyond the deal itself, we explore the power of the sales engineer - account manager partnership and how it can elevate your credibility, accelerate your career, and set you apart in competitive situations. Whether you’re just starting your sales journey or looking for strategies to sharpen your approach, this conversation offers practical lessons, real-world takeaways, and a fresh perspective on what it really takes to win.
👉 Mark your calendar, set a reminder, and join us for this powerful conversation!
Jerry Timmis LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/jerry-timmis-5b97676/
Making SEAMless Sales Book Page: teamsalesdevelopment.com/making-seamless-sales-book/
Making SEAMless Sales Podcast Page: teamsalesdevelopment.com/12-week-podcast-series-on-talkradio-nyc/
Tune in for this informative conversation at TalkRadio.nyc or watch the .
In this episode of Making SEAMless Sales, host Art Fromm reflects on his 35+ years of sales and enablement experience while introducing special guest Jerry Timmis, whose story is a cornerstone of Art’s book. He highlights the importance of CRM systems that truly support sales, sharing insights from last week’s guest Chris Smith and emphasizing tools and methodologies that boost pipeline accuracy and win rates. The segment sets the stage for a deep dive into Jerry’s high-stakes enterprise deal, showcasing how collaboration between sales and pre-sales—and disciplined qualification methods like MEDDIC—can turn late-entry opportunities into long-term wins.
In this segment, Art Fromm welcomes Jerry Timmis, highlighting his extensive career leading multimillion-dollar accounts at Oracle, Salesforce, and PTC before moving into nonprofit leadership and board roles. Jerry shares how, as a new sales rep at PTC, a cold call opened the door to Smiths Industries—even though competitors were already ahead—forcing him to navigate high pressure with limited time and experience. Their story illustrates how slowing down to prioritize discovery over rushing to a demo not only secured executive buy-in at a critical moment but also led to a client relationship that remains strong 25 years later.
In this closing segment, Art Fromm and Jerry Timmis emphasize how slowing down for discovery transformed a near-impossible deal into a 25-year client relationship. Jerry stresses that credibility comes from deep collaboration between sales and sales engineering, building trust with technical buyers, and replacing assumptions with customer-verified data. His core advice to sales professionals is clear: never deliver a demo until you know exactly what it’s solving for, because that focus creates real value, strengthens relationships, and drives long-term wins.
In this closing segment, Art Fromm answers listener questions about overcoming the pressure to “just show the demo” and highlights why proper discovery is critical in complex B2B sales. He explains that acknowledging the client’s request while reframing it into meaningful discovery builds trust, prevents wasted “harbor tour” demos, and positions sales teams as consultative partners rather than vendors. Art closes by reinforcing the value of mutual value exchange between sales and pre-sales, sharing resources from his Making SEAMless Sales book and website, and previewing next week’s guest, Peter Cohan, for a deeper dive into effective discovery and demo strategies.
00:00:32.729 --> 00:00:34.489 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Hello, everybody!
00:00:34.669 --> 00:00:38.039 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Welcome to the Making Seamless Sales show.
00:00:38.549 --> 00:00:41.619 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Coming to you live from Morris, Pennsylvania.
00:00:41.969 --> 00:00:53.749 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: This is episode 8 of the Making Seamless Sales show, with special guest Jerry Timmis, who is the account manager in the Smiths Industry story in my Making Seamless Sales book.
00:00:53.749 --> 00:01:06.209 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Which is obviously the same name as the show, and that's why I called it that, and for those of you that can see the livestream, or watching any of the video replays, this is… this is the book, and we'll be talking with Jerry in a little bit.
00:01:06.519 --> 00:01:11.189 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: about the Smiths industry story, which was really a foundational part of the whole book.
00:01:11.349 --> 00:01:16.599 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: My name is Art Fromm. I'm the founder and president of Team Sales Development.
00:01:16.899 --> 00:01:30.429 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And I'm sharing ideas based on 10 years of sales and pre-sales roles, and then 25 years, I can't even believe it, of sales enablement career. I've curated
00:01:30.789 --> 00:01:37.579 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the interconnected concepts from my whole portfolio of offerings, the consultative selling portfolio that I have.
00:01:37.729 --> 00:01:54.099 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And offer that up in the book and on this show. So this is really to help you in your role, whether you're in pre-sales sales, whether you're in B2B sales, or even if it comes down to persuasion and influence, everybody should have something that you can gain out of this.
00:01:54.099 --> 00:01:58.399 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Before we get into tonight's show and our special guest.
00:01:58.859 --> 00:02:07.809 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I want to thank Chris Smith from Impeller CRM, who was on the show last week, episode 7. He talked about…
00:02:07.999 --> 00:02:11.499 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Making sure that your CRM system doesn't suck.
00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:23.149 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And his book is right up here on my shelf, we talked about that. Chris covered different ways that the CRM, or Customer Relation Management System, if not everybody's familiar with that.
00:02:23.209 --> 00:02:32.859 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: how that could go bad and sometimes get in the way of sales doing their job. He talked about the implications of that when it comes to the quality of
00:02:32.859 --> 00:02:47.109 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the information, and even the pipeline accuracy, and other things like that. And then he went over his system for diagnosing the issues, and some of the solutions that he provides, including recommendations about
00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:48.539 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: proper training.
00:02:49.009 --> 00:02:56.469 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Proper processes and methods, And then tools that support sales, not create work.
00:02:56.689 --> 00:03:11.639 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And that is so important, because this is why, oftentimes CRM systems are not loved by salespeople, and in fact, they should be something that's a help and helps them sell. So, one of the things that we discovered
00:03:11.929 --> 00:03:19.919 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: that we talked about was a cornerstone of my portfolio, which is the sales opportunity snapshot methodology.
00:03:19.999 --> 00:03:31.709 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And, that is something that allows sales to sell. It is supported in software… in, Salesforce and in Dynamics 365 as an app.
00:03:31.729 --> 00:03:40.949 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And it has been proven to increase win rate, in one case, by 16 points, and generated 22% higher revenue.
00:03:40.949 --> 00:03:56.469 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: within 2 years for a key client. And here's the thing about this, is that I'm so blessed that that methodology has helped this client now for 20 years running, and so I still have that client, and I'm doing workshops for them even this year, and there's a few more to come.
00:03:56.629 --> 00:04:12.109 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, you may want to tune in to Episode 2, if that's of interest to you, as far as the methodology, because the author of the methodology, and my longtime partner and friend, Steve Bistritz, is on episode 2 of the Making Seamless Sales show.
00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:28.599 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: One last thing about Chris, if you didn't catch the show, he did offer his book, CRM Shouldn't Suck, for free, and so, tune in to the show last week, which was on September 18th, to find out more about how he can get you a free copy.
00:04:29.119 --> 00:04:39.679 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Now, in today's show, which we'll dive into in depth after the first commercial break, in today's episode, Jerry and I will discuss
00:04:39.779 --> 00:04:53.599 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: What happens when you're late to an enterprise class deal, the $23 billion potential client already has bids in hand, and even, it seems, had selected a solution, and
00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:58.539 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Jerry got just one shot to get in and try and win the deal.
00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:09.319 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, as I mentioned, it is a key story in my book. When I started writing my book, this was one of the stories that I knew I needed to include, because it's very foundational.
00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:23.259 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: to the idea of seamless sales, how the pre-sales and sales can work together better. And it's something… I've told that story, I don't know, maybe a hundred times in workshops that I've delivered over the past 25 years or so.
00:05:23.259 --> 00:05:29.199 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And just to give you a little preview, in Jerry's own words, from the back of the book.
00:05:29.809 --> 00:05:46.819 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Jerry said, the Smiths industry story in the book, for which I was the sales rep, was an engagement that would be hugely formative, resulting in a green account manager becoming a seasoned sales executive with Oracle and Salesforce. So we'll hear more from… from Jerry about that.
00:05:47.009 --> 00:05:48.619 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Now,
00:05:48.689 --> 00:05:53.329 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: a couple of other things, and then I'm gonna do a little bit more intro. So, speaking of the book.
00:05:53.379 --> 00:06:08.279 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I'm very happy to say that yesterday was the one-year anniversary of the book, and that's why I wanted Jerry on the show tonight, is because it was so foundational to the book, and when Jerry and I first talked, gosh, it was about 3 years ago, I guess, when I was writing the book.
00:06:08.309 --> 00:06:18.289 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We, you know, talked about the experience and got his permission to put it in there and everything else, so you can read all the details and all the relevant
00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:20.219 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: ancillary
00:06:20.229 --> 00:06:34.709 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: stories and information in the book by picking up a copy at any of your favorite hard copy or e-copy book outlets. This also was a pretty big week, just a couple of other quick things. My birthday was on Sunday.
00:06:34.709 --> 00:06:42.979 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And then, that was followed by a wonderful birthday present on Monday, when I was in New York City, and was on the NASDAQ
00:06:43.109 --> 00:06:44.229 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: billboard.
00:06:44.239 --> 00:07:07.709 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So that was quite an experience, being down at Times Square and seeing that. And, if you're interested in that, and oh, by the way, last week, I was on the Pre-Sales Collective podcast with Jack Cochran and Matthew James, and that was just released today, this morning, so you could check that out. So, for all these details, and to access more resources, go to Teamsalesdevelopment.com
00:07:08.329 --> 00:07:19.999 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And then take a look at the Events and Articles page, because that's where I provide all these resources. You can access all the episodes of the show, and also
00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:23.489 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: All of the other articles and things that can help you out.
00:07:23.979 --> 00:07:33.919 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, just a little bit more background on the Smith story, because when we come back from the break, I want to dig right into it with Jerry. When I met Jerry.
00:07:33.929 --> 00:07:44.939 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: who, as the quote says, was a young green sales rep at the time, in early 2000, I was running the mid-central region at Parametric Technology.
00:07:44.939 --> 00:07:58.099 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: for the pre-sales organization. So we were responsible for the demos, and the benchmarks and the proofs of concept, and all those types of things, and we were doing enterprise information management sales, big.
00:07:58.129 --> 00:08:17.879 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: complicated enterprise deals. Now, some of you may not know this, but Parametric Technology actually invented MEDIC, which is a qualification methodology. They had invented that several years earlier, and for those of you that don't know, MEDIC stands for Metrics
00:08:17.939 --> 00:08:28.809 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Economic buyer, decision criteria, identifying pain and identifying a champion. And the significance of that is because since PTC,
00:08:28.979 --> 00:08:37.249 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: had invented this, they did it because it was to help sales. So when typically a salesperson like Jerry would approach me.
00:08:37.729 --> 00:08:41.419 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And asked me for a resource to do a demo or whatever.
00:08:41.579 --> 00:08:50.559 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I have the luxury and the authority, frankly, of asking that salesperson In a win-win approach.
00:08:50.659 --> 00:08:54.389 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: To tell me about what they had learned regarding the opportunity.
00:08:54.449 --> 00:08:59.479 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And typically, medic would be the format. In fact, this is in the days when we were in person.
00:08:59.479 --> 00:09:21.559 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And quite a few times, a salesperson would walk into my office and say, hey, Art, I need a pre-sales resource to help me out. And I'd say, yeah, come on in and shut the door, and on the back of the door, I would have Medic right there, all 5 of the pieces of, you know, what is that? And by the way, some of you know it today as MedPick, and there's a variety of variations that have added other things to it.
00:09:22.029 --> 00:09:22.949 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So…
00:09:23.359 --> 00:09:38.739 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: whenever somebody would come to ask for a resource, I could qualify it a little bit in terms and then learn what that salesperson knew, so that I could know what type of resources to line up and provide the appropriate resources accordingly.
00:09:38.919 --> 00:09:47.669 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The more that I knew, the better I could respond, and the more the salesperson knew, the better we could respond to the client.
00:09:48.639 --> 00:10:12.769 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, you know, and with an enterprise-style deal, if any of you have been involved with big enterprise, like information management, or supply chain or other things like that, it can get very, very complicated, and the number of different things we could show is almost limitless. I would typically say, and even Jerry and I will talk about this, but, you know, one of the things that I would come back with is, if I didn't know enough.
00:10:12.769 --> 00:10:20.599 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: or if I was asked to do a demo, I'd say, alright, well, give me 3 days to show what we need to show, and maybe something will resonate.
00:10:20.599 --> 00:10:23.459 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: You know, the classic show-up-and-throw-up harbor tour.
00:10:23.779 --> 00:10:31.759 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: However, if the opportunity was well qualified, if the information had been discovered, there was plenty we could go on.
00:10:31.869 --> 00:10:44.589 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Knowing what the client's business issues were, knowing who was involved, and who we were trying to persuade. Understanding about the decision process helped us make sure we got the right people involved.
00:10:44.589 --> 00:10:54.029 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And then we can understand the timeframe that they were looking for. So all of those things were really good pieces of information to help us together as a sales team.
00:10:54.029 --> 00:11:04.899 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: be able to construct the right demo that would hit on the right marks. And in fact, what my team often did was, we would then divide and conquer with the salesperson
00:11:04.899 --> 00:11:13.639 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: to dive deeper and do more discovery. We did what, on my team, we called, and we sort of coined this and developed this approach, was
00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:31.189 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: a process audit, where we would go in and learn about the client's environment, a real deep dive on what they were doing. We… frankly, it was so detailed, we probably could have charged for it, because a lot of the times, the clients would say, oh, that's amazing, wow, that's amazing what you found out.
00:11:31.219 --> 00:11:38.869 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And one thing for everybody in sales, as a side note, is this, I think, is one of the very interesting things that we as sales
00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:39.859 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: teams.
00:11:39.889 --> 00:11:51.129 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: get the opportunity to do is see various things in the client organization that they often can't even see themselves because they're in these silos. So we would do these
00:11:51.129 --> 00:12:03.299 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: process audits. We would come back and present our findings, and very often, the client was super happy about it. We'd give them the information, and they could use it internally. We'd confirm the information.
00:12:03.359 --> 00:12:09.119 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And then what we would do is schedule a demo to show specifically the things that they were interested in doing.
00:12:09.299 --> 00:12:14.479 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We would map it to their requirements. And we won a ton of business using that approach.
00:12:14.619 --> 00:12:15.799 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So…
00:12:16.109 --> 00:12:29.979 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: just as we get ready to approach the commercial break here, setting up our conversation with Jerry, around early 2000, I got a call from Jerry saying that he had an opportunity to do a demo at Smith's Industries.
00:12:30.109 --> 00:12:40.539 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And he said, and this is probably some of you will recognize this, we got one shot at this, it's gonna be a big deal, Art, I know you could do this, bring your A game, bring your team.
00:12:40.719 --> 00:12:45.899 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And he told me a little bit about it that we'll go into, is that he got in late.
00:12:46.129 --> 00:12:56.239 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: They had already received some bids, and they had potentially even selected a competitor. So they wanted a demo, now the question is, what demo to do?
00:12:56.939 --> 00:13:12.569 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, my team and I, and Brad Ferguson was key to that, and Don Kemic was key to that back in the day, they were on the team. We had a discussion with Jerry to find out what he learned, and to determine how to proceed.
00:13:12.739 --> 00:13:32.609 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And so with that, we'll go to the commercial break, and when we come back, we will talk with Jerry about what that experience was like, the lessons that came out of it, and how you can avoid rushing to a demo and instead turn that around into a potential win. So go ahead and go to the commercial break now. We'll see you back in a few minutes.
00:15:47.250 --> 00:15:52.479 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Welcome back, and joining me is Jerry Timmis.
00:15:52.750 --> 00:15:54.590 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Hello, Jerry.
00:15:55.050 --> 00:15:56.919 Jerry Timmis: Art, it's so good to be with you.
00:15:57.050 --> 00:16:13.860 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Likewise, likewise. It's really great that we can share some of the insights, and I'm looking forward to the things that you learned as a part of this, that I certainly learned as a part of this. Let me just set the stage real quick by introducing Jerry. Started his career in organizational change management.
00:16:13.860 --> 00:16:25.780 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And then he had a software career in 1997. Then he worked for two early-stage startups, as well as 3 world-leading software firms, including Parametric Technology, where we met.
00:16:25.910 --> 00:16:42.040 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Oracle, and Salesforce. His leadership roles include Global Account Manager for General Motors, Regional Director of Great Lakes Enterprise Accounts Region at Oracle, responsible for $250 million in software sales at GM alone.
00:16:42.110 --> 00:16:57.709 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: VP of Sales for FinServe Midwest and East and West Canada Enterprise Banking, and then between Oracle Salesforce, Jerry opened up Central U.S. for single-store by gaining mainstream Fortune 500 brands that brought real-time analytic data
00:16:57.710 --> 00:17:11.559 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: to key brands like Kellogg's, and opened the energy vertical market with wins at Devon Energy and Consumers Energy. Very, very busy, long career. In 2019, Jerry pivoted into the nonprofit world.
00:17:11.560 --> 00:17:22.630 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: as VP of Stewardship, reporting to the President of Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, where he leads a large team responsible for fundraising media
00:17:22.630 --> 00:17:32.399 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Marketing Communications. An initiative called One Westminster, where the seminary is achieving a 360-degree view of their consistency
00:17:32.820 --> 00:17:49.440 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: have implemented Salesforce, so there's Salesforce appearing back in what Jerry is doing now as a user. Jerry also serves on two boards, including Cloud9 Perception, an early-stage warehouse automation software company, where he serves on the sales committee. So.
00:17:49.560 --> 00:18:02.409 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Welcome again. That's a… that's a lot that's gone on since we initially got engaged, you know, in that Smith's deal 25 years ago, and I can't even believe it's been that long. It just seems yesterday.
00:18:02.410 --> 00:18:20.619 Jerry Timmis: You know, it's, it's dizzying to hear it throw in there 6 kids and 9 grandkids and number 10 and 11 on the way, and it's like, how does that happen? And, you know, the answer is one day at a time over nearly 30 years, you know, it's just…
00:18:20.620 --> 00:18:22.690 Jerry Timmis: It's the way it works, man.
00:18:22.690 --> 00:18:41.989 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, exactly. So, I did a little preview, as you heard, you know, of sort of what I was doing, and then how we initially got involved with the Smith story. Tell us a little bit more about, you know, where you're at, and what it is that, you know, got you engaged with the Smiths
00:18:42.010 --> 00:18:44.529 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Opportunity to begin with, and we'll take it from there.
00:18:44.530 --> 00:18:55.620 Jerry Timmis: Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. I, you know, I got a shot at, at PTC where, you know, in some ways, as you remember, Art.
00:18:55.740 --> 00:18:59.600 Jerry Timmis: PTC was on fire as a software company.
00:18:59.850 --> 00:19:05.810 Jerry Timmis: And, in some senses, you know, I wasn't qualified, you know, to even join.
00:19:05.930 --> 00:19:22.319 Jerry Timmis: there, you know, just from my, from my, my, my history, being new to the space, you know, there was, it was, being the hot hand, you know, anybody who was anybody, you know, was, was working there, and so I was, I was truly green.
00:19:22.410 --> 00:19:27.089 Jerry Timmis: And, and yet was given an opportunity to work there. And so,
00:19:27.250 --> 00:19:40.640 Jerry Timmis: that… why that's important is because it was very fast-paced, you know, it was a place, you know, MEDIC was developed to help quickly qualify and win.
00:19:41.020 --> 00:19:55.280 Jerry Timmis: You know, so it wasn't just the winning, but it was the qualifying so that we could, you know, fish or cut bait, as it were, and really steward our time well as a sales organization.
00:19:55.400 --> 00:20:01.140 Jerry Timmis: You know, there was a lot of turnover at that company, at that time.
00:20:01.310 --> 00:20:16.230 Jerry Timmis: And, and so, you know, there was pressure, not pressure just for me, pressure for the whole team, including the sales engineers, and for my management. And so, you know, Smith's happened.
00:20:17.040 --> 00:20:20.760 Jerry Timmis: As a result of… a cold call.
00:20:21.270 --> 00:20:36.389 Jerry Timmis: You know, it was right around the corner from where our office was. And, you know, here they are, a global aerospace engineering firm. This opportunity.
00:20:36.730 --> 00:20:48.889 Jerry Timmis: was, both a combination of, product development, you know, so the discrete elements of machinery, and so…
00:20:49.310 --> 00:20:59.360 Jerry Timmis: Just for the listeners, Smith's is everything from, excuse me, you know, Cockpit, avionics…
00:20:59.360 --> 00:21:04.399 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Jerry is so gracious, because he's coming off of a huge, important trip.
00:21:04.590 --> 00:21:13.309 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: To a foreign country, and then got a cold and everything else, and he's been fighting through it, so no worries. Take… take your time.
00:21:13.310 --> 00:21:17.359 Jerry Timmis: Thanks, I appreciate it. I'm doing… I'm doing pretty well.
00:21:18.410 --> 00:21:21.889 Jerry Timmis: So, cockpit avionics to,
00:21:22.110 --> 00:21:39.800 Jerry Timmis: scanners in airports. You know, if you, you go through and you, you put your luggage in, you know, as you're just checking in, a lot of those are Smith scanners, right? So, it's the discrete product and all the software that manages it, you know. To your point earlier.
00:21:40.060 --> 00:21:42.000 Jerry Timmis: very complicated.
00:21:42.180 --> 00:21:47.950 Jerry Timmis: And so, product lifecycle management at the time was pretty new.
00:21:48.110 --> 00:21:50.580 Jerry Timmis: And there was a few players.
00:21:51.210 --> 00:22:10.890 Jerry Timmis: and we were… we were… we… we clearly hadn't made the cut. That call nudged us in, and so the pressure, you know, was very real, because in some part, you know, to… to come in and show, to show them.
00:22:11.350 --> 00:22:16.029 Jerry Timmis: Because… That's the table that was set for us.
00:22:16.030 --> 00:22:16.830 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Right?
00:22:16.830 --> 00:22:24.529 Jerry Timmis: Okay, come on in. Now, the question is, what do you do with that? And how do you…
00:22:24.810 --> 00:22:31.380 Jerry Timmis: How do you… how do you work with people, you know, customers who are feeling their own pressure?
00:22:31.510 --> 00:22:50.269 Jerry Timmis: to meet deadlines, you know, they're reporting, you know, they're accountable, you know, to, in this case, Rick, if you remember the guy leading that initiative, to Bob Mills, who would be the game changer, amazingly. That's just a great part of the story that you'll help tell. But,
00:22:50.650 --> 00:22:57.550 Jerry Timmis: So, you know, being able to take what you're given, and then bend it.
00:22:58.350 --> 00:23:05.680 Jerry Timmis: to the benefit of both you and the customer in the right way, that's where the real story is, right?
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:19.340 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Well, and backing up just a little bit, they had already… it wasn't like they were starting on their journey, like, they had already seen the competitors, they had already gone through the RFP process, so to speak.
00:23:19.340 --> 00:23:23.350 Jerry Timmis: Had already developed the relationships with those vendors.
00:23:23.350 --> 00:23:29.989 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, so when you got us in there, it was very late to the game, like, it was a long shot, and…
00:23:30.370 --> 00:23:30.880 Jerry Timmis: For sure.
00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:43.020 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Therefore, there was all that much more pressure on you as a new sales rep and everything else. So when you came to me and asked me to do a demo, we gotta have one shot at this, you know, all that classic stuff.
00:23:43.020 --> 00:23:50.909 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: What prompted you to do that in terms of this give and take that you were starting to mention regarding us getting a spot
00:23:50.910 --> 00:23:53.830 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: At this very, very late stage at the table.
00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:56.430 Jerry Timmis: You know what?
00:23:56.610 --> 00:24:03.730 Jerry Timmis: what prompted me to reach out to you was I had to reach out to you to get the resources.
00:24:04.060 --> 00:24:07.309 Jerry Timmis: Yeah, we really didn't know each other at that point. Oh.
00:24:07.590 --> 00:24:14.340 Jerry Timmis: And, you know, I was working with, one of your key guys, you know, on this.
00:24:14.530 --> 00:24:23.460 Jerry Timmis: And, you know, certainly my management was supportive of this. It was, you know, it was a bit of a Hail Mary, right? So that's why… that's it.
00:24:23.890 --> 00:24:37.450 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: How about for the client, though? Because they didn't just say, oh, okay, well, you know, give us an RFP or something like that. There was a little give and take there, right? As far as what allowed you to then get us in, because my pushback was.
00:24:37.450 --> 00:24:46.089 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: yeah, Jerry, we'd love to be able to give them a demo, but, you know, as I said, give us 3 days. So, you and I started to talk about.
00:24:46.090 --> 00:24:47.130 Jerry Timmis: Yeah, right.
00:24:47.130 --> 00:24:51.699 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: You know, what should we do to make sure it's best for you and best for them?
00:24:51.700 --> 00:24:55.860 Jerry Timmis: Yeah, a very… so, of, of…
00:24:56.270 --> 00:25:03.790 Jerry Timmis: So much of this is just reason, being reasonable, you know, it's logic, some persuasion, but…
00:25:04.050 --> 00:25:08.399 Jerry Timmis: Help us to do a little bit… enough discovery.
00:25:09.020 --> 00:25:11.050 Jerry Timmis: So that we can make sure
00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:17.670 Jerry Timmis: That what we're speaking to is what's most important to you, and what you're solving for.
00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:32.329 Jerry Timmis: And so, you know, that was really our key entree before the demo. And so those, those conversations were transformative on so many levels.
00:25:32.510 --> 00:25:36.989 Jerry Timmis: You know, I'd even love for you to kind of tee up
00:25:37.250 --> 00:25:45.040 Jerry Timmis: you know, that, that meeting where, we're having that, you know, that meeting with the Smiths people and our team, and…
00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:48.899 Jerry Timmis: Yo, it was, if you recall.
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:53.359 Jerry Timmis: You know, in that conference room, there was a lot of glass.
00:25:53.780 --> 00:25:58.349 Jerry Timmis: And, and all of a sudden, information…
00:25:59.330 --> 00:26:07.370 Jerry Timmis: which is what you're really hoping for as a vendor. Information is starting… is starting to come out.
00:26:07.370 --> 00:26:10.059 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And, you know, and fill the walls.
00:26:10.230 --> 00:26:13.240 Jerry Timmis: You know, with, you know, with,
00:26:14.710 --> 00:26:22.320 Jerry Timmis: You know, on paper, and and, and so… the CIO.
00:26:23.230 --> 00:26:25.390 Jerry Timmis: Bob Mills, who we hadn't met.
00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:31.369 Jerry Timmis: is walking by, comes in… He all of a sudden…
00:26:31.630 --> 00:26:36.030 Jerry Timmis: You know, he asks what we're doing, You know, we're introduced.
00:26:36.430 --> 00:26:42.169 Jerry Timmis: You know, he invites himself in, he sits down, and he starts to thin-slice things.
00:26:43.790 --> 00:26:47.220 Jerry Timmis: And help narrow and draw conclusions.
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:49.790 Jerry Timmis: So,
00:26:50.100 --> 00:26:59.389 Jerry Timmis: Do you remember what it was that he said and he did? You know, kind of how he brought us to a point of crystal focus?
00:26:59.390 --> 00:27:13.010 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, I mean, he literally, as I recall, took the whiteboard marker and was like, this part right here is really important, and this isn't quite so important, and things like that. And again, backing up, we're about to come to a break here, backing up just a little bit.
00:27:13.010 --> 00:27:28.580 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: that would not have happened. Like, we… just imagine if we had been doing the show up and throw up harbor tour demo, because that's what they wanted, and if, you know, you and I didn't talk it through, that might have been what we resorted to, because that's what they might have insisted on.
00:27:28.580 --> 00:27:37.010 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: But because you and I had the discussion, and I said, look, this'll help you to help them, and then you took it to them and said.
00:27:37.010 --> 00:27:38.950 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: This'll help them
00:27:38.950 --> 00:27:53.949 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: to get what they want, and then now we can all laser focus on what's needed. Instead of Robert Mills coming in and joining us, I think he could have walked by that conference room and saw a bunch of his people in there and, you know, kept walking.
00:27:53.950 --> 00:28:09.920 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: which we would have never met him. Yeah. As we talk about after the break here, he was key to the whole opportunity, like, that was your main contact moving forward. Or, I think another one, maybe this is a little bit exaggerated, but he could have walked by and seen, you know, a bunch of his team members in there.
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:12.999 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Trying to figure out what the heck they were seeing when we're showing this.
00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:13.500 Jerry Timmis: Yup.
00:28:13.500 --> 00:28:20.729 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: demo of all this stuff, and they're so totally lost, and he look in and he go, what are y'all doing here? Looks like you're wasting your time, you know?
00:28:20.730 --> 00:28:27.030 Jerry Timmis: You know, Art, if there's a headline in all of this process.
00:28:27.580 --> 00:28:34.880 Jerry Timmis: Well, let me give a punchline. I mean, before we go to the break, Smith's, 25 years later.
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:40.449 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: is still a parametric technology, now PTC customer.
00:28:40.840 --> 00:28:50.270 Jerry Timmis: And… but, you know, so that's kind of a punchline. The headline was, the whole arc of
00:28:51.060 --> 00:28:52.740 Jerry Timmis: Where we ended up.
00:28:53.390 --> 00:28:59.960 Jerry Timmis: Had to go through this little doorway called Art From, Saying, hey, listen.
00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:02.849 Jerry Timmis: You know, let's just slow down for a minute.
00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:06.159 Jerry Timmis: Think about what we're solving for.
00:29:06.440 --> 00:29:10.930 Jerry Timmis: And how we can best help them, thinking about them.
00:29:11.120 --> 00:29:15.229 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Deliver on their objectives and put us in the best possible light.
00:29:15.460 --> 00:29:37.659 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Awesome. Excellent. Well, when we come back from the break, we'll talk more about the dangers of the dash to demo, and the turning point, and then also get some advice from Jerry in terms of what he learned, and then moving forward for new sales reps or experienced sales reps that want to sharpen the tool. So, let's go ahead and we'll take the break, and we'll be back in a couple minutes and continue our discussion with Jerry.
00:31:35.850 --> 00:31:38.610 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And welcome out… welcome back, everybody.
00:31:41.950 --> 00:31:44.160 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Who is the sales rep that
00:31:44.180 --> 00:31:56.229 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: we worked together for the Smiths opportunity that was 25 years ago, and the key point being is that we did slow down, we did ask and convince them, more or less sold.
00:31:56.230 --> 00:32:06.560 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: them on the need for us to do demo, and I initially sold Jerry on the need to do that, and together we wound up with a phenomenal situation. So, what… what do you think in terms of…
00:32:06.570 --> 00:32:08.969 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Those initial discovery
00:32:09.150 --> 00:32:22.439 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: conversations with Smiths, how did that shift… shift the dynamic? I mean, obviously, you wound up winning the deal and getting the run rate business out of it. What was… what was… what else was going on there as far as shifting that dynamic?
00:32:22.860 --> 00:32:32.720 Jerry Timmis: Yeah, you know, that deal ended up being… it took… it took time to win that deal. I mean, the whole deal slowed down, and so that was, you know, it didn't happen then.
00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:39.279 Jerry Timmis: You know, I think the scale of it, you know, increased. You know, the total…
00:32:39.470 --> 00:32:46.769 Jerry Timmis: you know, sales over 25 years. I don't even know what it must be at this point, but it's massive.
00:32:47.630 --> 00:32:53.889 Jerry Timmis: Really getting in to understand the business.
00:32:54.860 --> 00:33:01.509 Jerry Timmis: is so fundamental, and so difficult, but it required the ability
00:33:01.880 --> 00:33:08.589 Jerry Timmis: to connect, I believe, at the sales engineering level.
00:33:08.900 --> 00:33:11.679 Jerry Timmis: With their technical buyers.
00:33:12.210 --> 00:33:18.909 Jerry Timmis: You know, at a very technical firm, That was,
00:33:19.070 --> 00:33:24.150 Jerry Timmis: that turned out… that turned out to be, hugely important. So…
00:33:24.550 --> 00:33:30.100 Jerry Timmis: You know, inasmuch as you can say that the sales team
00:33:30.270 --> 00:33:38.260 Jerry Timmis: You know, kind of through the rigor of our execution and doggedly getting in and convincing us to come, you know, to give us a shot.
00:33:38.370 --> 00:33:44.030 Jerry Timmis: Was re… was a really important, you know, inflection point.
00:33:44.770 --> 00:33:49.229 Jerry Timmis: There's no question that what really won this deal
00:33:49.570 --> 00:33:53.889 Jerry Timmis: Was the caliber of the sales engineering team.
00:33:54.120 --> 00:33:57.419 Jerry Timmis: And, and you know, frankly,
00:33:58.890 --> 00:34:01.840 Jerry Timmis: You know, my willingness to be led by.
00:34:02.500 --> 00:34:18.960 Jerry Timmis: my sales engineer. And, you know, and his… you know, just to recognize his acumen, and to let him and his boss, which in that case was you, you know, come in and help lead that part of the process.
00:34:19.350 --> 00:34:34.519 Jerry Timmis: Which, in so many cases in technical sales, is, well, it's… there's nobody in the sales world that would say, oh, no, I mean, for sure, that's, you know, that's a given. But it's not a given.
00:34:34.520 --> 00:34:34.980 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Bye.
00:34:34.989 --> 00:34:38.479 Jerry Timmis: It, it, you know, it's… it…
00:34:38.789 --> 00:34:45.169 Jerry Timmis: It, it's, it is transformative in the relationship.
00:34:45.339 --> 00:34:58.149 Jerry Timmis: of a, you know, between two firms that are accomplishing something greater together. You're dealing with the lives of people, their livelihoods, their well-being.
00:34:58.649 --> 00:35:05.799 Jerry Timmis: And so, the ability to build trust Is what's central to credibility.
00:35:06.729 --> 00:35:13.839 Jerry Timmis: And that credibility is central to, you know, being the cause
00:35:14.179 --> 00:35:28.919 Jerry Timmis: that, you know, that people give to you. You know, there's that old phrase, people give to people, or companies give to other companies, justified by the cause or the reason. Well, that cause piece, the reason.
00:35:29.209 --> 00:35:31.459 Jerry Timmis: being established.
00:35:31.789 --> 00:35:33.749 Jerry Timmis: You know, the…
00:35:34.549 --> 00:35:52.239 Jerry Timmis: in our world of technical sales, that's through the sales engineering and, you know, kind of a combination of that and the business development organization working together. And over the years, you know, there's more sophisticated, you know.
00:35:52.309 --> 00:35:58.579 Jerry Timmis: Business development teams that work with sales engineering, you know, to just develop
00:35:58.829 --> 00:36:06.869 Jerry Timmis: You know, plausible, crisp cases that, to your point, you know, people could pay for on their own.
00:36:06.979 --> 00:36:12.829 Jerry Timmis: You know, to use. You know, since that time, and with this approach.
00:36:12.939 --> 00:36:15.129 Jerry Timmis: you know, I've had multiple people
00:36:15.379 --> 00:36:18.449 Jerry Timmis: You know, come to me or to us.
00:36:18.809 --> 00:36:23.399 Jerry Timmis: In our organizations, you know, in sidebars.
00:36:23.979 --> 00:36:28.349 Jerry Timmis: in moments of, okay, I think of 3 right now.
00:36:28.849 --> 00:36:32.689 Jerry Timmis: Is this a good deal? Tell me if I should do this deal.
00:36:33.219 --> 00:36:39.329 Jerry Timmis: The smallest of those deals was $9 million, another was 26, another was $32.
00:36:39.549 --> 00:36:42.609 Jerry Timmis: In the case of the $32 million deal, the…
00:36:43.049 --> 00:36:46.369 Jerry Timmis: the, Chief Strategy Officer of GM.
00:36:46.899 --> 00:36:48.999 Jerry Timmis: Said, as we're looking at
00:36:49.389 --> 00:36:56.399 Jerry Timmis: You know, at the premises of the deal, he said, you know, you know our business better than we do.
00:36:57.429 --> 00:37:06.929 Jerry Timmis: And so, you know, we want to share those assets to help them succeed. It's how we grow.
00:37:06.929 --> 00:37:20.269 Jerry Timmis: and achieve our objectives, but so much comes to the credibility of that sales engineering team to get there. And that portfolio, by the way, Art, you know, and that would have been in Oracle at that point.
00:37:20.479 --> 00:37:24.609 Jerry Timmis: Of information where that chief strategy officer said that.
00:37:24.729 --> 00:37:32.889 Jerry Timmis: That came from… the work of a guy by the name of Dale Deloitte, the lead
00:37:33.289 --> 00:37:38.409 Jerry Timmis: data-based sales engineer for GM, right?
00:37:38.710 --> 00:37:48.220 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Well, I think it's that. It is the partnership, so it's like a divide and conquer, but it's not separate, and there are separate roles, you know? Sales is a separate role from sales engineering, and
00:37:48.230 --> 00:38:08.790 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I don't want to go onto this tangent, but at one point, I got the opportunity to add the sales role, and that was not good. I thought it was going to be great, but the customer, frankly, didn't trust me as much, because they're like, oh, you have a quota now, you know? So there's a need for both, and it's that working together, which is what the big, you know, my big theme and my big mission is, really, about helping that.
00:38:08.790 --> 00:38:11.449 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And that's what you allowed to support. I mean.
00:38:11.810 --> 00:38:19.889 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you were new at the time, and you must have, again, seen all the things going on at PTC, and now this all of a sudden comes on your lap.
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:38.319 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: it would have been easy for you just to get a demo, and maybe in your mind, you're like, yeah, that is the right thing to do. So what do you… what advice would you give to sales teams in terms of, you know, avoiding the show up and throw up type demo? And one thing I will say is that
00:38:38.580 --> 00:38:57.850 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: good sales engineers will be able to pull that off, it's just not going to be as efficient as effective, as you said. And that's almost dangerous, because it starts to lead to, oh, all I gotta do is tee it up and give it to them, but I believe we leave money on the table if we don't do that. So, what's your advice to, you know, for sales teams who
00:38:57.900 --> 00:39:03.090 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Want to kind of rush to the demo and do the show up and throw up harbor tour type thing.
00:39:03.640 --> 00:39:09.510 Jerry Timmis: Yeah, and this… and this was such a… this was… this was such a difficult situation.
00:39:09.860 --> 00:39:16.290 Jerry Timmis: To… you know, the… To navigate.
00:39:16.530 --> 00:39:25.640 Jerry Timmis: But… but… You've gotta have… you've gotta be able to communicate with your leadership.
00:39:26.680 --> 00:39:29.099 Jerry Timmis: On what the long game is.
00:39:30.540 --> 00:39:34.650 Jerry Timmis: And you've got to be able to speak your mind.
00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:37.460 Jerry Timmis: On what the risk of doing this is.
00:39:37.740 --> 00:39:42.150 Jerry Timmis: You know, going in and just showing a demo.
00:39:42.300 --> 00:39:48.559 Jerry Timmis: You know, there's… For a young rep, Who's got seasoned leadership.
00:39:48.900 --> 00:40:05.569 Jerry Timmis: That seasoned leadership is going to tell that young rep, he who mentions money first and negotiating a deal loses. You know, so, as time's gone on, kind of in the same way with respect to a demo, and certainly as I…
00:40:05.830 --> 00:40:11.229 Jerry Timmis: Moved in, over the course of my career, you know, into leadership.
00:40:12.290 --> 00:40:16.080 Jerry Timmis: You know, I'm qualifying all the time.
00:40:16.200 --> 00:40:20.150 Jerry Timmis: You know, what… what… what does…
00:40:20.390 --> 00:40:27.059 Jerry Timmis: customer say? So much of a sales leader's
00:40:27.980 --> 00:40:33.610 Jerry Timmis: task is, is, is to deconstruct assumption
00:40:34.530 --> 00:40:40.520 Jerry Timmis: And backfill it with customer verifiable data.
00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:42.730 Jerry Timmis: And so…
00:40:42.730 --> 00:40:47.120 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Say that again, that's… that's key. That… that turns everything on its head right there.
00:40:47.120 --> 00:40:54.530 Jerry Timmis: So much, so much of a sales leader's Focus.
00:40:54.800 --> 00:41:06.460 Jerry Timmis: is… should be deconstructing assumption And backfilling it with customer-verified data.
00:41:07.460 --> 00:41:17.540 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, because in sales, we're all optimistic. Oh, yeah, this is gonna close, and we want to chase after everything. You know, it's hard to just let something go, especially as a new sales rep, or…
00:41:17.540 --> 00:41:34.269 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: You know, if you are feeling pressure in your company to just make a sale, okay, I'm gonna line it up, do a demo, okay, if it doesn't work, I'll do the next one, and that just leads to busy work. The buyer verifiable outcomes force us to focus on the buyer and what they're trying to do. It's all about the end in mind.
00:41:34.270 --> 00:41:49.570 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And as you said, you know, that initial demo was just the starting point, but it was the relationship that got built at both the technical and the business level, and great communication among the team that Smith's benefited from, because now they see it a different way than they thought.
00:41:50.200 --> 00:41:51.249 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: It's gonna move forward.
00:41:51.250 --> 00:41:52.220 Jerry Timmis: 100%.
00:41:52.220 --> 00:41:52.970 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: interest.
00:41:53.240 --> 00:42:11.100 Jerry Timmis: Art, think about it, that one meeting, that one discovery meeting was the total game changer. You know, we all of a sudden, we're working with all of this rich, customer-verified data. Not just that, I could go back and tell my VP,
00:42:11.240 --> 00:42:29.459 Jerry Timmis: The CIO of Smith's in that meeting said that this, this, and this were the top priorities, which are a little bit in counter-distinction with, you know, the guy that he has running it. He was saying this, but in front of all of us, he reset the priority
00:42:29.460 --> 00:42:31.739 Jerry Timmis: You know, stack.
00:42:31.790 --> 00:42:36.790 Jerry Timmis: You know, by saying, no, no, no, no, it's this, this, and, you know, this right here. Yeah.
00:42:37.650 --> 00:42:45.279 Jerry Timmis: that's the holy grail of succeeding, is what's important to them. And, and so…
00:42:45.490 --> 00:42:49.710 Jerry Timmis: You know, any, any, any young rep.
00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:58.740 Jerry Timmis: you know, needs to be dogged about that, you know, about that opportunity. How you get that information, you know, that's tricky. That's a whole other podcast.
00:42:58.740 --> 00:42:59.780 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Right, yup.
00:42:59.780 --> 00:43:00.900 Jerry Timmis: But…
00:43:01.060 --> 00:43:10.519 Jerry Timmis: But knowing… knowing what you're pursuing. And you know, it's interesting, what you're… so medic, back to your point, you know.
00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:14.470 Jerry Timmis: What's so amazing about a rubric like MEDIC,
00:43:14.740 --> 00:43:18.760 Jerry Timmis: Or anything like that.
00:43:19.060 --> 00:43:23.109 Jerry Timmis: Is… is that it… it's an… it's a set of questions
00:43:23.530 --> 00:43:27.719 Jerry Timmis: That any… everybody, whether it's a sales engineer.
00:43:28.150 --> 00:43:37.369 Jerry Timmis: Or a sales rep, or a sales manager, anybody who's touching an account, Is constantly asking those questions.
00:43:39.790 --> 00:43:40.340 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And…
00:43:40.340 --> 00:43:43.740 Jerry Timmis: Right, and filling in that rubric.
00:43:43.900 --> 00:43:50.470 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, and again, we can discuss this more at another time. Any information we gain.
00:43:50.510 --> 00:44:07.529 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: even in the process of qualification, is important information. And a lot of what we did to generate that buy-in to do discovery instead of a demo came from that initial information. So, we gotta wrap up here. Tell me a little bit, you know, one…
00:44:07.630 --> 00:44:22.589 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: quick, advice for either new sales reps or sales reps that are struggling with the urge to just show a demo or just give an RFP. What's your one-minute advice, and then we'll close it out with, how to contact you and things like that.
00:44:23.420 --> 00:44:27.840 Jerry Timmis: I would say don't allow yourself to show a demo
00:44:28.180 --> 00:44:31.100 Jerry Timmis: Until you know what that demo is solving for.
00:44:34.630 --> 00:44:35.489 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: There you go.
00:44:35.970 --> 00:44:51.150 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, that's… that's it. If we can't answer that question, then how can we possibly convey that to the client? And then buyer verifiable outcomes? Not going to be possible, because it's us trying to show something and hoping it sticks.
00:44:51.470 --> 00:44:52.780 Jerry Timmis: Yeah, for sure.
00:44:53.510 --> 00:45:01.979 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Well, I really, really appreciate this. What's the best way to get ahold of you, and where we can learn more?
00:45:03.070 --> 00:45:14.139 Jerry Timmis: Well, you know, Jerry, jtimmis at, gmail.com is, is, is my, my, my private.
00:45:14.140 --> 00:45:24.770 Jerry Timmis: email. I'm involved at Westminster Theological Seminary, as you said, which is jtimmis at wts.edu.
00:45:25.010 --> 00:45:38.599 Jerry Timmis: And, also a plug for Cloud9 Perception, automated warehouse, management of, of incoming and outgoing.
00:45:38.640 --> 00:45:56.319 Jerry Timmis: product. It's, using AI and machine learning. It's a great new, company that, is reducing the time and the cost, the human cost, in many of the ways that AI is today.
00:45:56.350 --> 00:46:08.370 Jerry Timmis: Using, you know, ocular imaging, and so it's just a… it's an amazing new company. So, and that would be, jerry at cloud9perception.com, so…
00:46:08.370 --> 00:46:19.400 Jerry Timmis: a few emails to remember, but, just, really appreciate, Art, the opportunity to be with you, and to talk to you, and recount those glory days.
00:46:19.400 --> 00:46:33.559 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, for sure. And by the way, on the show page is going to be also Jerry's LinkedIn, link, so that you can connect with him that way, too. Well, thank you very much, Jerry, really appreciate it, and we'll take these lessons forward in an.
00:46:33.560 --> 00:46:34.070 Jerry Timmis: Thanks, man.
00:46:34.070 --> 00:46:37.679 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Don't rush to the demo. Alright, thank you so much.
00:46:37.680 --> 00:46:38.999 Jerry Timmis: Take care, see ya.
00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:40.129 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, thank you.
00:48:24.340 --> 00:48:32.610 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Alright, everybody, welcome back, and again, so great to hear from Jerry. I recommend, you know, rewinding that, listening again. There's a lot of nuggets there.
00:48:32.660 --> 00:48:47.429 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And, you can learn more on the website, and certainly in the book, because we go into a lot more detail, or I went into a lot more detail about it, and then, of course, the lessons learned. So, making seamless sales, this is a key…
00:48:47.820 --> 00:48:53.010 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Part of the whole book, and many of the concepts in the book spin right off of that.
00:48:53.330 --> 00:49:00.330 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: As far as how do you do discovery properly, and what do we learn, and what types of things do we want to know, and all those things.
00:49:00.350 --> 00:49:08.449 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, in this segment, we do the Dear Artie, which is based off of the Dear Abby
00:49:08.460 --> 00:49:23.689 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you know, advice column where people wrote in about Advice for Life, and this is where I answer questions regarding advice for sales. And I found some questions that have come up that are germane to our topic today in terms of
00:49:23.690 --> 00:49:38.130 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the resistance to just jump in and instead do proper discovery. So, one question that I got was, prospects often say, just show me something, or I've done my research, let's skip to the demo.
00:49:38.130 --> 00:49:49.110 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: How do you handle that without seeming unresponsive to the request? And just to set a little bit of background here, studies show now, especially with business-to-business sales, the complex sales.
00:49:49.150 --> 00:50:05.399 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the client, the prospect, has done a lot of work on their own. They've looked at websites, they might have gone through some automated demos and things, and they may be at the point where they say, just show me exactly what I want. And you've heard me say this before, perhaps, is that, you know.
00:50:05.620 --> 00:50:23.260 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: yeah, we want the… we want the customer to be right. There's an expression, the customer's always right, and I would say we want to make them right. So let's find out a little bit about what they're doing. That's why they sometimes say, just skip right to the demo, because I just need to show, you know, I just need to see this thing. So…
00:50:23.260 --> 00:50:33.939 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: This is what we call, famously coined, I think, by Peter Cohan, which, by the way, he's gonna be on the show next week, and I'll talk more about that in a minute. The Harbor Tour.
00:50:33.940 --> 00:50:51.849 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: a harbor tour mentality. They think they want to see everything, or they think they know what they want to see, but what they really want to see, you know, we want to make sure that they see what actually matters to them. And they can't really know that, because they may have never bought this before. So, I…
00:50:51.970 --> 00:51:10.649 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you know, one thing that I've always done, and what I would recommend for all account managers and account executives, and for that matter, sale, you know, SDRs and BDRs to do, is to just acknowledge the request. So, yes, we understand that, and yes, we'd like to show you something meaningful, and that's the key word.
00:51:10.650 --> 00:51:13.080 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I want to show you something meaningful.
00:51:13.080 --> 00:51:20.350 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: based on what you've researched, you probably have some specific capabilities in mind. So, rather than doing a generic
00:51:20.430 --> 00:51:26.000 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Demo, and behind the scenes, that's our show up and throw-up demo, which we don't really want to do.
00:51:26.210 --> 00:51:45.100 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Rather than doing a generic walkthrough that's going to potentially waste your time, I'd just like to ask you a few questions to understand what it is you want to see. Now, these discovery questions can be based on your own methodology or whatever. Three that work really nicely are, for example, what's driving this project?
00:51:45.330 --> 00:52:00.779 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And again, notice these are very open-ended questions, so what we're doing is getting them to talk. What's driving this? And I didn't say who's driving it, I didn't say, you know, is there a particular department, just what is driving this, and see what they say about it.
00:52:01.390 --> 00:52:03.429 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: What does success look like?
00:52:04.110 --> 00:52:12.740 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And again, that could be for the person we're talking with. What do they consider success? Maybe they're doing this on behalf of somebody else, so what does success look like for them?
00:52:13.030 --> 00:52:15.059 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And then who else is involved?
00:52:15.420 --> 00:52:21.709 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And this is a key indicator of, at a minimum, how serious are they about this? If it's just them.
00:52:21.710 --> 00:52:38.430 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: doing a science project, and they don't have any ability to go anywhere with it, then that can flesh that out. We can find that out in advance. So those questions, while they are definitely qualifying at the same time we are gathering information.
00:52:38.430 --> 00:52:46.110 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: to learn what it is we can put together. And don't be surprised, by the way, if that discussion goes on for minutes, if not an hour.
00:52:46.320 --> 00:52:52.629 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The whole goal here is to drive discovery, and next week, when we talk to Peter Cohan, we'll talk more about some other methods.
00:52:52.770 --> 00:52:58.210 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: What this winds up doing is positioning you as an expert that's done this before.
00:52:58.490 --> 00:53:00.420 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Versus them
00:53:00.570 --> 00:53:18.379 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: who have only gone through it once. You have experience that can guide through, but you need to know where they're at. You need to know where they're trying to go. And so what we want to do is, we're not refusing the request, we're making it more valuable. And really, that's what Jerry did as well, right? They're like, yeah, you could get in here, but we need to see a demo.
00:53:18.590 --> 00:53:35.329 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And then Jerry said that to me, and then I said to Jerry, you know what? We… how are we gonna know what to show? Jerry said to them, we're gonna save everybody time and cut to the chase by learning about what it is you're doing, and the rest is history. So, the importance for sales and pre-sales working together is that
00:53:35.470 --> 00:53:41.730 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: This will prevent that endless demo cycle where you show features that don't matter, hoping that they stick.
00:53:42.060 --> 00:53:49.369 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And that's just gonna lead to more questions and more demos, and then wasting your time, and ultimately losing deals to do nothing.
00:53:49.790 --> 00:53:54.930 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Where you've just continued to show things. And I'll go back to what I said when I was talking with Jerry.
00:53:55.190 --> 00:54:08.360 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: pre-sales SEs are really, really good at turning not very much into something. So, as a salesperson, and again, I'm a salesperson, and I have been, you know, professionally, and I do sales now.
00:54:08.540 --> 00:54:28.199 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: it's important for us to not just take a quick win and say, oh, good, they made something out of that. We want those buyer verifiable outcomes that Jerry was talking about. We want to make sure we know that this resonates with the client, and it isn't about a tick in the box of just getting a demo. It's about truly moving the deal forward.
00:54:28.200 --> 00:54:41.370 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So this will position us as a consultative expert rather than a vendor, and that's a big difference, right? We want to be seen as a partner. We want to see it as being helpful. I'm not here to try to sell. I'm not here to try to push.
00:54:41.560 --> 00:55:00.289 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: what I'm doing is trying to help somebody buy, try to help them to get what they want. And if there's no fit, great, we'll part ways friends, and then that'll save time for us and save time from them. And frankly, if it's not a fit, I don't even really want to pursue that, because it could drag me down into a whole series of things that I can't even deliver.
00:55:00.650 --> 00:55:08.740 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So that's one thing in terms of the idea of not just responding with, oh yeah, we'll show you a demo, and then we hope that it works.
00:55:09.240 --> 00:55:17.440 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The other question that I want to go… go to is… the Discovery Demo Agreement Framework.
00:55:17.810 --> 00:55:33.190 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And somebody asked the question of, how do you structure the conversation to get the prospects to agree to do proper discovery before jumping in? And I would even take this one step further, or upstream, and say, how do you get your sales rep to agree
00:55:33.270 --> 00:55:50.149 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: that discovery's needed, so that they're not just saying, hey, I gotta have you do a demo, we've got one shot at this, you know, it's gonna be huge, and all that. So I… I use the… what I recommend is the mutual value exchange. Very simply put, it's help me to help you.
00:55:50.580 --> 00:55:52.140 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: You, as the…
00:55:52.550 --> 00:56:02.129 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: customer might want a demo. I need to help you. Okay, so to help you, help me understand what to do. Same thing in starting with the sales rep.
00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:14.710 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, if you're a sales rep, realize that your sales engineer, your pre-salesperson, can absolutely help you. Do you know that, prospects automatically trust a sales engineer? Automatically.
00:56:15.130 --> 00:56:26.760 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And they will be skeptical and not automatically inherently trust a salesperson. So why not use the sales engineer to get information, right? And that's where the agreement and the seamless sales can come into play.
00:56:26.770 --> 00:56:40.339 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So this mutual value exchange would be, yeah, I understand if, you know, if I'm pre-sales acting this out, I understand, as a salesperson, you want to meet quota, you're looking to make your commission and all that.
00:56:40.340 --> 00:56:53.889 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I can help you with that. What I need, though, is to understand what it is that they're trying to do. What are we trying to accomplish? And not just for the demo. The demo's not just a check in the box. We want to
00:56:53.890 --> 00:57:05.280 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: have true client success, laser-focused on the success they will get out of the engagement. So, help me to help you, and then I can show something that's relevant to
00:57:05.850 --> 00:57:22.719 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the client situation relevant to you as the salesperson, and then we both learn in the process of what's going on there. Now, we also bring with us, both in sales and pre-sales, experience, having worked with clients like that. So, one of the things you can offer up is
00:57:22.810 --> 00:57:37.150 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: yeah, I could offer you a generic demo. If I ask a few questions, I can probably pull from my experience the things that really matter to you. And now what we start to do is get them to realize, oh, Art's done this before.
00:57:37.340 --> 00:57:43.609 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Perhaps there's things I haven't thought of. So, we've all heard of FOMO, fear of missing out.
00:57:43.790 --> 00:58:02.700 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And that's part of it, is if you can help them understand you've worked with other people like them before, and you're asking the questions out of genuine interest, so that you know how to bring your resources to bear, now they may be thinking, oh, wait a second, if I don't let Art ask the questions, then I might be missing out on something.
00:58:02.940 --> 00:58:08.389 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And then there's the fear… the FOMU. Have you heard of FOMU? The fear of messing up.
00:58:08.740 --> 00:58:26.270 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And they… what we want to do is give them a sense of, you know what, if we can help them to be accurate, then they can get a better demo. So, in any event, this framework gives you the repeatable methods to take control of that in a way that has positive outcomes for your client. Very quickly, as we wrap up for today.
00:58:26.270 --> 00:58:45.750 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Thanks again for Jerry sharing the ideas for how to work together better as a team. Check out the Making Seamless Sales book and more details there. Look at my website, teamsalesdevelopment.com. I've actually got an article on there of selling discovery, in other words, doing this mutual discussion and this agreement.
00:58:45.770 --> 00:59:02.110 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Please contact me if I can help you with your plans for sales kickoffs, seminars, or other events to improve your sales teams. I do offer keynotes and workshops and CRM integrated tools that have been proven to help sales sell. Like, share, and comment.
00:59:02.360 --> 00:59:21.239 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: listen to the replay on your favorite channel or podcast streaming service, and then next week, same time, same place, my friend and partner Peter Cohan, author of Great Demo, Doing Discovery and Suspending Disbelief, and I will talk more about the importance of pre-sales and sales working together. Thanks, everybody, for your time. Have a great…
00:59:21.290 --> 00:59:28.879 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: weekend ahead, and put it into action. Let's hear what you can find out, and the way you can make it work. Thanks, everybody. Take care.
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