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EPISODE SUMMARY:
What does it mean to lead when your life's work seems to have been taken away from you? This is a critical conversation about naming the grief, loss, healing, and transformation for inclusive leaders and experts—and what it takes to stand with and through change.
WHAT YOU WILL LEARN:
How do we cope when decades of progress disappear overnight—and the work you dedicated your life to is suddenly illegal, unwelcome, or irrelevant? We're not just talking about inclusive leadership—we're exploring the emotional damage that nobody wants to admit is happening right now. You'll hear how even the most seasoned change agents are grappling with profound loss, identity crisis, and the question: "What now?" We unpack the grief cycle that inclusive leaders are experiencing as legal mandates strip away the very foundation of their expertise, and why processing this loss is essential to finding the way forward. If you've ever felt like the ground moved beneath your life's work, or if you're wondering how to lead when the rules keep changing—this episode holds a mirror up to that moment. Today we're interviewing someone who's witnessed inclusive leadership go from underground movement to corporate mandate to cultural battleground—and lived to tell the story of each transformation. Our guest shares what it means to grieve, separate the work from the vehicle, and why standing with change requires a radical act of presence, humility, and humanity.
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ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Jennifer Brown (she/her) is an award-winning speaker, bestselling author, and globally recognized authority on inclusive leadership and workplace culture. She’s advised top organizations like Google, IBM, and the Gates Foundation, and is the author of How to Be an Inclusive Leader and Beyond Diversity. Her Inclusive Leader Continuum™ is used across industries to drive lasting change. Through her keynotes, podcast (The Will to Change), and
advisory work, Jennifer helps leaders build cultures of belonging where everyone can thrive.
She lives in New York with her partner of 25 years, Michelle.
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LINKS:
www.gotowerscope.com
www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-hard-skills-dr-mira-brancu-m0QzwsFiBGE/
jenniferbrownspeaks.com
jenniferbrownspeaks.com/coaching/
jenniferbrownspeaks.com/the-will-to-change/
Tune in for this innovative conversation at TalkRadio.nyc or watch the Livestream by Clicking Here.
In this episode of The Hard Skills, Dr. Mira Brancu introduces Jennifer Brown, a globally recognized expert on inclusive leadership, to explore the often-overlooked experience of grief and reinvention for leaders navigating backlash against diversity efforts. Jennifer shares her personal journey from opera singer to DEI pioneer, highlighting how the field has evolved from underground advocacy to corporate adoption, and now to a period of resistance. For leaders, the conversation underscores the need to build resilient strategies, anticipate cycles of change, and maintain momentum toward inclusion even when external conditions shift.
In this segment of The Hard Skills, Jennifer Brown highlights her concern over companies retreating from people-centered practices in favor of short-term risk avoidance, warning that this erodes belonging, loyalty, and future workforce strength. Yet she finds hope in the power of younger generations, employees, and even customers, who increasingly demand healthier, more inclusive workplaces and are willing to hold organizations accountable. For leaders, the key takeaway is that true inclusive leadership in uncertain times requires vulnerability, trust-building, and fostering genuine human connection—moving beyond data or righteousness toward dialogue that restores energy and resilience.
In this segment of The Hard Skills, Jennifer Brown reflects on how leaders must navigate a time of loss, transition, and moral injury by embracing cycles of dissolution and rebirth. She compares this moment to the caterpillar transforming into a butterfly—requiring us to let go of old forms, grieve what has passed, and trust that our accumulated wisdom and values can reshape into something new. For leaders, the lesson is to pause, reflect, and draw on deeper intuition and resilience rather than pushing harder—recognizing that inclusive leadership now calls for patience, community, and reimagining the future rather than clinging to past models.
In the closing segment of The Hard Skills, Jennifer Brown encourages leaders to see this period of disruption not as defeat, but as an opportunity for deep reflection, renewal, and growth. She reminds us that past challenges have already built the resilience, wisdom, and intuition needed to face what comes next, and that pausing to celebrate hard-won lessons can illuminate new pathways forward. For leaders navigating uncertainty, the call is to embrace change as a radical act of presence and humanity, trusting that the dismantling of old forms can clear space for more meaningful, joyful, and sustainable ways of leading.
00:00:51.870 --> 00:00:56.849 Mira Brancu: Today, we are diving into a really unique topic we don't really discuss publicly.
00:00:57.010 --> 00:01:01.980 Mira Brancu: The experience of loss and identity faced by inclusive leaders and experts.
00:01:02.180 --> 00:01:12.410 Mira Brancu: Our guest today has been doing inclusive leadership work for over 20 years, having seen it move from underground to visible corporate adoption and even mandates, and now.
00:01:12.610 --> 00:01:15.619 Mira Brancu: In this moment of profound backlash.
00:01:15.800 --> 00:01:23.349 Mira Brancu: We are going to talk about grief, reinvention, and finding your way forward when the path disappears.
00:01:23.750 --> 00:01:31.599 Mira Brancu: We're in Season 9, when we are focusing on strengthening workplace culture, and this discussion is perfect for it.
00:01:31.930 --> 00:01:44.789 Mira Brancu: Now, before we get started, just a reminder about my new Strategic Leadership Resiliency Fellows Program this fall, which includes two options, the Anti-Burnout Leadership Lab, which is a half-day workshop on October 9th.
00:01:44.870 --> 00:01:58.560 Mira Brancu: And the Strategic Leadership Resiliency Intensive, a 5-week leadership program on developing long-term strategic capacity, starting October 16th. You can learn more about it at gotowerscope.com backslash
00:01:58.730 --> 00:02:01.010 Mira Brancu: 2025 Fellowship.
00:02:01.850 --> 00:02:05.020 Mira Brancu: Registration closes on September 29th.
00:02:05.500 --> 00:02:19.250 Mira Brancu: And that's all I'm gonna say about that, because I'm super excited to introduce our guest today, Jennifer Brown. Jennifer Brown is an award-winning speaker, bestseller, and globally recognized authority.
00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:27.349 Mira Brancu: on inclusive leadership and workplace culture. She's advised top organizations like Google, IBM, and
00:02:27.570 --> 00:02:42.440 Mira Brancu: the Gates Foundation. Anne is the author of How to Be an Inclusive Leader and Beyond Diversity, both of which I've read, and frankly, I've been following her for several years now, and really, really appreciate her work, so I'm super excited to have her here.
00:02:42.500 --> 00:02:58.899 Mira Brancu: She has another book coming out, The Shape of Change, which I'm very excited about as well, because I hope to explore more of that piece today with her around all of these kind of, like, transition and transformation experiences.
00:02:59.060 --> 00:03:07.330 Mira Brancu: Her inclusive leader continuum is used across industries to drive lasting change, and I hope we can get a little bit into that as well.
00:03:07.460 --> 00:03:10.809 Mira Brancu: Through her keynotes podcast, The Will to Change.
00:03:10.970 --> 00:03:20.540 Mira Brancu: and advisory work, Jennifer helps leaders build cultures of belonging where everyone can thrive. She lives in New York with her partner of 25 years, Michelle.
00:03:20.660 --> 00:03:22.990 Mira Brancu: And welcome, Jennifer.
00:03:23.390 --> 00:03:27.000 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Thank you. Thank you, Mira. I'm so excited to be here.
00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:43.689 Mira Brancu: Yeah, really excited to have you here. So, let's start with just how did you get into the inclusive leadership space, and what have you seen? Because I know you've been in this space for quite a while, 20 years at least, right? So, I'm also curious how it's changed over time.
00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:57.859 Jennifer Brown (she/her): How did I get into it? We used to laugh and say there was really no… there was no, like, study of it, or formal discipline, or academic programs back 25 years ago, I'd say, is when I got into it.
00:03:57.860 --> 00:04:03.169 Jennifer Brown (she/her): But what I did know at the time was I was very active in the…
00:04:03.170 --> 00:04:23.409 Jennifer Brown (she/her): the LGBTQ+, which we didn't have those last three characters in it, the workplace advocacy movement or effort, for lack of a better word. And I, I just, you know, that was my personal community, but I ended up really getting to know a lot of the pioneers that were the brave employees who were the first.
00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:30.409 Jennifer Brown (she/her): To raise their hands in their companies, to lead the effort, to begin to market to and hire.
00:04:30.410 --> 00:04:43.590 Jennifer Brown (she/her): LGBTQ plus talent and customers. So, that whole conversation was sort of being birthed when I was 25 years ago coming into this. And I just recently, at that time.
00:04:43.590 --> 00:04:50.550 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Reinvented myself from an opera singer who lost her voice and had to literally walk away from…
00:04:50.610 --> 00:04:53.430 Jennifer Brown (she/her): You know, dreams of a stage career.
00:04:53.740 --> 00:05:05.840 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And I had reinvented, you know, painfully, but I'm so grateful that I did, into, something I could do from the stage, but very different, which is leadership development and facilitation.
00:05:05.840 --> 00:05:25.180 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So I had traded one stage for another, I had gotten another degree and kind of just picked myself up and reinvented, and once I started thinking about leadership and organizational change, of course, being LGBTQ+, the… to me, the logical thing I wanted to exist, the VIN diagram that I discovered, was the intersection of
00:05:25.210 --> 00:05:37.289 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Belonging, and being closeted, and not bringing your full self to work, and everything that is true about that, and how it harms organizations, harms the people in it, in those organizations.
00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:56.210 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And I… I sort of discovered this whole field that was called diversity at the time. There was no E, there was no I, there was no A, there was no B. It was really early days, but I… I just… I loved it. I thought, does this really work? Because this is really deep and important stuff, and fun, and…
00:05:56.230 --> 00:06:06.450 Jennifer Brown (she/her): energizing and very on the vanguard, certainly, and I learned so much about business and how to build business cases and convince people, and to make…
00:06:06.460 --> 00:06:19.200 Jennifer Brown (she/her): things, make arguments with data, and, had the power of this growing movement around me of workplace equality, which was just, really, really amazing. So it was really fun times, and it's been…
00:06:19.350 --> 00:06:38.799 Jennifer Brown (she/her): all those years, I decided to kind of just pivot into that and stay in it, and I broadened from LGBTQ to all levels of diversity, all kinds of diversity, and we became a firm. I built my team that serves and served companies to build their strategies, for inclusiveness across the board, and that's what I've been doing for 20 years.
00:06:39.130 --> 00:06:58.299 Mira Brancu: Amazing. And, you know, way before it was, you know, cool, and way before it was known, and probably it was, I would suspect, somewhat underground for some of this work. And I actually remember getting into this
00:06:58.410 --> 00:07:10.179 Mira Brancu: about 25 years ago in my first career, when I was a school counselor, and I went to the University of Maryland, and at that time, they were focusing on what used to be called multicultural counseling.
00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:10.990 Jennifer Brown (she/her): I'm down.
00:07:10.990 --> 00:07:13.820 Mira Brancu: That was the term, right? Back then. And so,
00:07:14.130 --> 00:07:29.149 Mira Brancu: I had this, amazing old white hippie guy who was, like, do… who had been doing this work, doing this research for years before, I mean, decades before, and, you know, he…
00:07:29.630 --> 00:07:48.780 Mira Brancu: you know, he really awakened me, and I just got so interested, with this entire world that I was, like, I had not been exposed to. And I ended up, you know, making my thesis around, you know, these kinds of things, and, you know, since then.
00:07:49.740 --> 00:08:07.110 Mira Brancu: trying to figure out, like, where my place is in all of this, right? Sometimes taking a harder step forward, sometimes exploring my voice, sometimes playing around with it. So, I'm curious, over the years, what you've noticed as trends in this space.
00:08:08.410 --> 00:08:13.600 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Yeah, boy, it's changed, obviously. Early days, it was…
00:08:13.900 --> 00:08:24.919 Jennifer Brown (she/her): when I entered it, I recall that race and gender had been the focus, and I think that came out of affirmative action, honestly, and mandates, and lawsuits, and…
00:08:24.970 --> 00:08:38.750 Jennifer Brown (she/her): You know, so companies were starting with what they could count and visibly perceive, rightly or wrongly, by the way, now we know. Gender identity, ethnicity, all these things. Sometimes they're visible, sometimes they're not, sometimes you're right, sometimes you're not.
00:08:38.750 --> 00:09:01.939 Jennifer Brown (she/her): But in those days, that was what was tracked, and there were metrics around it. And so being… bringing the LGBTQ conversation was this frontier. I mean, it was truly… that… and it wasn't… really, gender identity was really frontier. I mean, it was just sexual orientation for a while, and we were, trying to educate around domestic partner benefits, actually. So, this was pre-premarriage equality, and that was never…
00:09:01.940 --> 00:09:10.859 Jennifer Brown (she/her): I don't even think that was an, you know, an aspiration that we thought was achievable. So that's changed. I think…
00:09:10.860 --> 00:09:29.040 Jennifer Brown (she/her): We certainly didn't… we faced a lot of bias and pushback, so there's never been a time that this has been easy. But it felt that there was a wind at the backs of those of us who were… were sort of enlightening companies about this huge demographic that they could, of course, monetize.
00:09:29.280 --> 00:09:44.950 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And we could make a case that it didn't feel… we did deal with, you know, oh, you know, this is… why does this matter at work? It's inappropriate, I don't know why we're talking about it, I… whatever, I'm very open-minded, I mean, there's just all the usual…
00:09:44.950 --> 00:09:52.240 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Stuff, which actually, in light of today, looks like child's play. But, but those were the kind… that was the kind of resistance that we had.
00:09:52.240 --> 00:10:09.220 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Honestly, but it was nothing like now. I think that there, again, there was a momentum, and there was an acknowledgement, and there was understanding of the information. We say demographics is destiny. They were leaving money on the table when you don't monetize and hire what many of us understand to be 10%
00:10:09.370 --> 00:10:16.899 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Of the population. And for young people below the age of 30, they're saying 25% of the population today.
00:10:16.900 --> 00:10:29.759 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So, we would use these numbers to, to, generate that interest. And there was interest. There's interest. So, companies signed on, companies came to us for consulting, companies,
00:10:29.760 --> 00:10:42.850 Jennifer Brown (she/her): trusted people in the community to educate about that demographic, and that was… felt really incredible. And then over time, we broadened to a lot of other diversity dimensions, and kind of were able to have a more nuanced
00:10:42.900 --> 00:11:02.439 Jennifer Brown (she/her): I think, accurate conversation about all the different identities, visible and invisible, and we moved into this unconscious bias training phase, which I think, you know, while correct, I'm not sure it was the smartest strategy. It actually, in hindsight and even in the time, research showed that it turned people off from…
00:11:02.690 --> 00:11:18.269 Jennifer Brown (she/her): the conversation was not a business conversation, it was a, oh, wait a second, I'm flawed, and I'm, you know, sort of inevitably biased, and I think people responded badly and got defensive and kind of associated the whole thing with, okay, now you're holding me accountable.
00:11:18.270 --> 00:11:29.490 Jennifer Brown (she/her): you have metrics, and I've got to hire certain people, and you're telling me that I'm biased every single day of my life. Not a… I'm not sure. I think we're gonna look back and understand that some of the strategies we used…
00:11:30.190 --> 00:11:43.599 Jennifer Brown (she/her): you know, right information, wrong strategy, we… we… I think every field has to acknowledge when we didn't quite get it right, and I think, we just thought… I don't know, I think we thought the truth would be most convincing, and people would be able to take it.
00:11:43.610 --> 00:11:55.110 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And I, you know, I look at change a lot. It's what I call everything, my book, my podcast, I think a lot about how you invite people in. You call them in, you meet them where they're at, you…
00:11:55.390 --> 00:12:05.679 Jennifer Brown (she/her): endeavor to, you know, take the pulse and the temperature and welcome people into a process. And it's a process. It's not something that can be forced.
00:12:05.870 --> 00:12:25.140 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So, it was really… it was an interesting… I always kind of deviated, I think, from what became really, really intense, and obviously, you know, started in 2017, and then I'd say 2020, where it just got really hot in the kitchen. And, again, needed, you know, necessary.
00:12:25.640 --> 00:12:30.559 Jennifer Brown (she/her): But I also know, in hindsight, and it's easy to say, you know.
00:12:30.930 --> 00:12:46.439 Jennifer Brown (she/her): We thought we would always have the wind at our backs that we felt in 2020, 2021, but we've been proven wrong. And, this has caused a major backlash, and we can say, well, people are afraid of the truth, they're afraid of what's powerful.
00:12:46.680 --> 00:12:53.940 Jennifer Brown (she/her): They're afraid of demographic change, and it's happening, no matter whether you agree with it or not. So,
00:12:54.390 --> 00:12:58.459 Jennifer Brown (she/her): But I think this… now I kind of see this as a correction.
00:12:59.030 --> 00:13:11.259 Jennifer Brown (she/her): to the intensity that was building probably over the last 30 years that I've seen. And we can talk about what was happening before then, too, but I wasn't really around, but I just want to acknowledge I stand on some serious
00:13:11.300 --> 00:13:28.319 Jennifer Brown (she/her): shoulders, and we just kind of plugged in when we plugged in, but it was, like you said, that lovely man had been doing it for a very long time, and IBM had been doing it for 60 years by now. So there were really, really, really early adopters, too, that predated when I entered it.
00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:33.260 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So yeah, so we're in a… we're in a different phase, and I… I…
00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:48.020 Jennifer Brown (she/her): I wonder… I wonder whether all of this was necessary. And I think that there are important things to notice and to work on in every phase, whether you've got the wind at your back or you are facing tremendous headwinds.
00:13:48.690 --> 00:13:51.549 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah, and so I was just gonna ask,
00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:55.980 Mira Brancu: What… what is it that you feel we can learn?
00:13:56.200 --> 00:14:01.670 Mira Brancu: from what's happening now. What…
00:14:02.980 --> 00:14:13.779 Mira Brancu: that, you know, obviously we… we can't go backwards, right? So, what is it that we can extract from right now that you're… you're personally thinking through?
00:14:14.300 --> 00:14:17.050 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Yeah, I think what I'm thinking through is…
00:14:17.750 --> 00:14:37.130 Jennifer Brown (she/her): I think our righteousness is something we have to consider. You know, I would proudly stand on a stage and say, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice, quoting MLK Jr, and feel very righteous in saying that, and feel very right and righteous, too.
00:14:37.380 --> 00:14:46.169 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And, whether we believe that or not, it is certainly… we are getting a lesson about how that arc bends. And…
00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:52.990 Jennifer Brown (she/her): You know, the, the, the… Circumstances that we thought would propel us sort of endlessly.
00:14:54.170 --> 00:15:12.909 Jennifer Brown (she/her): would… someday we would be checked, and someday we would be stopped in our tracks, and… and worse. And if you study history, you understand that there are cycles going all the time. And if you look at nature, there are cycles happening all the time, and you cannot have a spring without a winter. You literally can't.
00:15:13.160 --> 00:15:24.549 Jennifer Brown (she/her): But, I think… I don't know how… you know, maybe some Americans in particular were not taken by surprise that this happened. You know, Black Americans…
00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:40.980 Jennifer Brown (she/her): many other Americans that have experienced a very different America. And then there's others who haven't as been as directly impacted, personally impacted, and their people have not been as personally impacted, that I think were knocked sideways about it. But we can all sit here and say.
00:15:41.700 --> 00:15:57.419 Jennifer Brown (she/her): did we prepare for the rainy day? I mean, did we… were we aware at the same time as we were? The abundance and the summer's abundance, if you look at the seasons, was happening, and there was opportunity everywhere, and it felt like there was sort of an endless
00:15:57.870 --> 00:16:03.820 Jennifer Brown (she/her): supply of resources and attention and wind at your back.
00:16:03.990 --> 00:16:10.630 Jennifer Brown (she/her): You know, it would have been interesting to ride this through and to be simultaneously extremely aware of what was building.
00:16:10.800 --> 00:16:16.010 Jennifer Brown (she/her): On the other side, and extremely aware of the need for contingency planning, and…
00:16:16.250 --> 00:16:26.619 Jennifer Brown (she/her): you know, at the same time as you're trying to lean in really hard into this really unusual opportunity. And I think it would have been really difficult to have that kind of discipline.
00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:44.359 Jennifer Brown (she/her): You know, it's like… it's like you have this company that's taking off, and you're planning for your… it's bankruptcy at the same time. Like, how could you do that? Does anybody want to do that? I think the answer is no. You want to enjoy it. You want to be, you know, in the moment, and just grab everything you possibly can.
00:16:44.610 --> 00:16:57.119 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So that's just something to think about, that a more realistic way of planning is something… a discipline that I think we could consider as a more regular part of our hygiene.
00:16:57.290 --> 00:16:58.120 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:16:58.150 --> 00:17:05.629 Mira Brancu: That's a great, way to take a pause and go to an ad break.
00:17:05.650 --> 00:17:10.840 Mira Brancu: To think about what could you be planning for right now?
00:17:10.849 --> 00:17:30.510 Mira Brancu: Right? Even… whether you're doing well, or not doing well, or whatever, what is the contingency plan? So, we are reaching a brief ad break. You're listening to The Hard Skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Jennifer Brown, author of How to Be an Inclusive Leader Beyond Diversity, and the upcoming book, The Shape of Change.
00:17:30.510 --> 00:17:35.209 Mira Brancu: The Hard Skills is sponsored by Tower Scope, my leadership and team development consulting firm.
00:17:35.330 --> 00:17:57.759 Mira Brancu: You can learn more about it at gotowerscope.com. The Heart Skills Show livestreams on Tuesdays at 5 p.m. Eastern Time. If you're here right now at 5 p.m. Eastern Time, you can catch us live streaming on LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitter, and Twitch through talkradio.nyc, and you can even interact with us if you have questions, you can leave them there, and we will answer in real time.
00:17:57.760 --> 00:18:00.409 Mira Brancu: So we will be right back with our guests in just a moment.
00:20:11.860 --> 00:20:17.499 Mira Brancu: Welcome, welcome back to The Hard Skills with me, Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Jennifer Brown.
00:20:17.710 --> 00:20:26.320 Mira Brancu: So, Based on what you've been tracking, Jennifer, what concerns you most, and what brings you most hope?
00:20:27.610 --> 00:20:37.109 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Well, let's see, I'll start with concerns. The… I think we're all really worried about the rollback of
00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:51.000 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Corporate support and employers investing in, you know, the importance of a productive workforce, and productive comes from… productivity comes from a place of…
00:20:51.080 --> 00:21:02.199 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Comfort, and belonging, and thriving, and so, you know, feeling like you matter, and your contributions matter, and all of who you are is welcomed.
00:21:02.490 --> 00:21:11.330 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So, you know, the thinking seems to be it's more important for companies to avoid risk right now than it is to…
00:21:11.510 --> 00:21:23.069 Jennifer Brown (she/her): defend their people practices if they were making investments for and in their people. So that concerns me. It's going to harm the companies.
00:21:23.120 --> 00:21:31.940 Jennifer Brown (she/her): and organizations to make that choice, and I think they're looking at one risk and not the other, honestly, and they're not really holding them in the correct proportion.
00:21:32.190 --> 00:21:50.999 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And they're losing a generation of relationships that they, I think they're… I don't think they know the value of those. And it's classic… it's unfortunately classic employer behavior to take things for granted, and to treat people in a certain way and still expect
00:21:51.290 --> 00:21:53.739 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Performance and excellence.
00:21:54.310 --> 00:21:59.600 Jennifer Brown (she/her): But particularly the younger generations that have entered the workplace and are coming in.
00:21:59.750 --> 00:22:05.600 Jennifer Brown (she/her): are… are… they don't work in the same way. The equation is not the same, they don't feel automatically…
00:22:05.860 --> 00:22:11.909 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Beholden, or charmed by, or impressed by, or loyal to.
00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:20.000 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And any entities, that certainly that don't make an… make an effort to create a workplace that's healthy.
00:22:20.020 --> 00:22:35.700 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And one where people feel they can thrive and, bring all of who they are. So, it's gonna be really interesting to see. It's… the pendulum that swings in this is, do the employers have all the power? Do the employees have all the power? Like, this is something we've been watching go back and forth for many years.
00:22:35.700 --> 00:22:47.060 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So, right now, I think with, like, return to office, and companies are definitely grabbing the power, and, perhaps… but I think employees have tons of power as well, and…
00:22:47.100 --> 00:22:53.639 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And they will show that, and they already are. And I trust that the next generation
00:22:53.800 --> 00:22:59.499 Jennifer Brown (she/her): You know, makes those needs known and makes choices that are going to
00:22:59.630 --> 00:23:10.180 Jennifer Brown (she/her): be felt strongly and economically. But that's what… that's what companies respond to. We've been seeing that in the news, I think, just this week, just today, yesterday?
00:23:10.180 --> 00:23:12.930 Mira Brancu: That's right, I was just gonna say, it's not just employees, it's customers, too.
00:23:12.930 --> 00:23:16.779 Jennifer Brown (she/her): It's customers, it is, and viewers, and all kinds of things.
00:23:16.780 --> 00:23:23.669 Mira Brancu: Right, right. There's a lot of power in purchasing, and I, I love your reframe.
00:23:25.500 --> 00:23:38.480 Mira Brancu: or the way that you framed it, around, risk mitigation over people practices, because I've definitely seen exactly that, and it's… it's a great way to sort of pinpoint that,
00:23:38.620 --> 00:23:41.050 Mira Brancu: You know, some… some of these companies
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:46.749 Mira Brancu: Are, just trying to close in to protect.
00:23:46.750 --> 00:23:49.680 Jennifer Brown (she/her): But sometimes that threat defense.
00:23:49.710 --> 00:23:58.879 Mira Brancu: Isn't always what's going to Help them, not just survive, but thrive long-term.
00:23:59.610 --> 00:24:05.059 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Right. Yeah, it's a short-term avoidance of pain… alleged avoidance of pain.
00:24:05.150 --> 00:24:23.239 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And I would say alleged because there are plenty others that are staying the course and brave and saying, I'm not, you know, we're not… we're not shifting our direction for anything or anyone. So those employees are feeling lucky, but at the same time, you know, even those employees are… I think everybody feels very much…
00:24:23.520 --> 00:24:38.310 Jennifer Brown (she/her): you know, potentially at risk, these days. These decisions are… continue to roll through the business world and continue to be made, and threats continue to escalate, too. So the temperature keeps getting turned up on business to comply.
00:24:38.490 --> 00:24:57.370 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So… and academic institutions and all kinds of others. So, it's, it's a time for brave leadership, and I do think… I want to say that great leaders have figured out how to communicate and maintain trust, even when the news isn't good, even when they don't.
00:24:57.420 --> 00:25:06.950 Jennifer Brown (she/her): they don't know the answers, even when people want something that they cannot give, I still think that leadership can happen. I still think that
00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:23.070 Jennifer Brown (she/her): that, trust can be maintained, but it takes a lot of skill to be able to do that. So it's a few, few leaders that really know how to balance that, and it… you know, inclusive leaders, I think, have been working on this for a long time, which is, how do I show up not knowing
00:25:23.070 --> 00:25:31.859 Jennifer Brown (she/her): the experience of that identity, that identity, that identity that I don't… I don't know anyone in that community, or I've never had a friend, or I don't hold that identity.
00:25:31.860 --> 00:25:44.990 Jennifer Brown (she/her): inclusive leaders that are really working on themselves have been grappling with leading without knowing for a long time. How do I… how do I create space? How do I inspire folks? How do I learn?
00:25:45.110 --> 00:25:52.540 Jennifer Brown (she/her): How to be with other people, how do I learn their experience? How do I represent their experience? How do I advocate for them? How do I become a champion?
00:25:52.620 --> 00:26:08.080 Jennifer Brown (she/her): this is completely uncertain territory, like, every day. So, if you're good at that, I think that you will probably rise to, you know, being able to communicate in these really uncertain times with no playbook, no answers.
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:19.829 Jennifer Brown (she/her): bad answers, and yet continue to keep people on board. And it's a really, it's a really interesting challenge to lay down for leaders. This is how we need to grow.
00:26:20.100 --> 00:26:36.170 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah, I agree, and I hadn't thought about it that way, that inclusive leaders, people who have been practicing this, have been practicing living with the unknown and uncertainty all along, and so they have gotten a little bit better. I'm super curious to hear
00:26:36.330 --> 00:26:44.389 Mira Brancu: You mentioned, you know, there's… there's a lot to have learned when we were,
00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:48.580 Mira Brancu: Doing certain practices like implicit bias training.
00:26:49.010 --> 00:26:56.210 Mira Brancu: That, you know, looking back now, maybe it wasn't so wise, right? Or being so self-righteous about it, or, you know, those kinds of things.
00:26:56.220 --> 00:27:09.620 Mira Brancu: Looking forward, what can we extract from those lessons, that will help us become even stronger, better, inclusive leaders during times of uncertainty and unknowns?
00:27:09.620 --> 00:27:27.780 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, we leaned on data and the business case, and I'm torn about that, because I was told as a consultant, always lead with the business case. They will always say yes if you speak to them in their language, but that has not proven to be true. We've seen the whole thing be dismantled.
00:27:27.860 --> 00:27:36.440 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Regardless. Like, so, I don't know anymore, does data win the day? Do the facts win the day?
00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:54.309 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So… and unconscious bias is a fact, because if you're human, you're biased, and so that… I would put that in the category of science, right? To say, let me explain why you do the things you do, why you don't know the things you don't know, why you might be afraid, you know, so we can have all the scientists, the academicians, the…
00:27:54.500 --> 00:27:57.529 Jennifer Brown (she/her): You know, and make all these arguments that we think
00:27:57.940 --> 00:28:06.460 Jennifer Brown (she/her): will win the day, but I have found that this is a very emotional process. This is a really psychological, personal.
00:28:06.800 --> 00:28:09.209 Jennifer Brown (she/her): process of, of, of…
00:28:10.020 --> 00:28:29.519 Jennifer Brown (she/her): of being really unsettled that you don't know how to be, you don't know how to lead, you don't know yourself, you don't know why you think the things you do, you don't… you aren't courageous in terms of leading. I mean, I think it's very much of a very self-reflective moment that we're… we should invite people into to examine themselves.
00:28:29.520 --> 00:28:46.270 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Not say you're biased and, you know, here's how to… here's how to mitigate it and what you say, instead of, I don't see color, you know, here's what you say instead. I mean, we can do charts, and we can get all the information, especially AI can answer all these things now. All the things that we've tried to teach over the years, it's all available.
00:28:46.600 --> 00:28:50.559 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So if it's available, the question becomes, why don't people…
00:28:50.820 --> 00:29:08.510 Jennifer Brown (she/her): why aren't people coming to the well to drink? Like, why is there not a curiosity and a moving towards each other? So I think somehow the dialogue needs to be done differently, and that I think inclusion needs to be practiced
00:29:08.770 --> 00:29:15.210 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Mutually. And when I say that, The righteousness… it takes two.
00:29:15.410 --> 00:29:29.520 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And I think that there was a distancing that has happened, in the, you know, precisely between the folks that need to be leaning into each other, need to be understanding each other. And this country has become completely
00:29:29.550 --> 00:29:38.819 Jennifer Brown (she/her): bifurcated, and we've, you know, the trust has been destroyed by external factors, mainly. And to counteract that.
00:29:38.910 --> 00:29:49.219 Jennifer Brown (she/her): We need to be radically inclusive, which means putting aside the righteousness, maybe the facts, whatever we need to put aside that wasn't persuasive enough.
00:29:49.430 --> 00:30:06.929 Jennifer Brown (she/her): and come up with a different methodology. And I think that comes down to very, very human, very vulnerable work, that takes tons of trust in each other, and lots of openness, and lots of acknowledgement of each other's humanity at the end of the day. There can't be…
00:30:06.930 --> 00:30:23.290 Jennifer Brown (she/her): There can't be a right and wrong where it's a shaming process for folks, and it's, and it can't be a binary, it's gotta be a process, and that can be really hard, and it's really frustrating, and I know when I say that, you might be listening to this and say, I don't have time for that.
00:30:23.290 --> 00:30:34.899 Jennifer Brown (she/her): anymore. Like, I don't have the energy, I'm burned out, I don't want… I don't want to partner anymore with people. I don't want to meet them where they're at. And that's a completely valid response. I think we're all really…
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:46.089 Jennifer Brown (she/her): We're tired, but I do think, too, that we will… we will energize each other if we can figure out a way to have dialogue with each other. I think that will resuscitate us. So we… we've got to approach it a different way.
00:30:46.090 --> 00:30:53.679 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. It's reminding me of, one of the activities that this professor did that I like so much. His name was Dr. Sedlasek.
00:30:53.730 --> 00:31:12.189 Mira Brancu: And he had written about, most of his focus was college students, and, especially the increase in, discrimination… discrimination practices and biases after national crises. And,
00:31:12.470 --> 00:31:19.850 Mira Brancu: one of the interventions was contact exposure. So what he would do was pair all of us up
00:31:19.900 --> 00:31:35.069 Mira Brancu: To meet up with some other student on campus that differed from us in several ways. He wouldn't tell us how or, you know, whatever. But we had to meet with them, and we had to have, like, this conversation. It was, you know, prompts and stuff like that to get to know each other better.
00:31:35.070 --> 00:31:40.109 Mira Brancu: And the, entire premise is that, those
00:31:40.470 --> 00:31:58.540 Mira Brancu: biases, those discriminatory practices reduce the more contact exposure you have with people who are different from you. It sounds very obvious, but people don't actually do it. We don't practice these things. You know, it was part of a classroom assignment. So, how do we now, like.
00:31:58.540 --> 00:32:16.850 Mira Brancu: infuse it into the things that we do, right? So, we're reaching an ad break. I would love, after the ad break, to hear how you're thinking about these kinds of things. You're listening to The Hard Skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Jennifer Brown, and we will be right back in just a moment.
00:34:20.560 --> 00:34:30.479 Mira Brancu: Welcome, welcome back to The Hard Skills with our guest today, Jennifer Brown. So, Jennifer, during this break, I've been kind of reflecting on
00:34:30.750 --> 00:34:39.569 Mira Brancu: You know, how we come back together again, right? How we start having these conversations and reconnecting.
00:34:39.730 --> 00:34:40.739 Jennifer Brown (she/her): But…
00:34:40.909 --> 00:34:48.210 Mira Brancu: In the face of… this… combination of Threat.
00:34:48.550 --> 00:34:49.489 Mira Brancu: Reef.
00:34:49.780 --> 00:34:51.040 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Loss…
00:34:51.699 --> 00:34:54.970 Mira Brancu: And probably some moral injury, too.
00:34:55.170 --> 00:34:59.100 Mira Brancu: And… That is a hard place.
00:34:59.270 --> 00:35:09.109 Mira Brancu: to try to connect with others who are different from us, right? So I'm really curious, you've been… you've been doing a lot of thinking about
00:35:09.770 --> 00:35:14.760 Mira Brancu: How we cope with losing the form, shape, and vehicle of what we've been practicing.
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:17.119 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And how we go through.
00:35:17.220 --> 00:35:22.639 Mira Brancu: this time of transition. I'd love to hear more thoughts that you have around that.
00:35:23.160 --> 00:35:39.110 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Yeah, I am… I'm thinking so much about it and experiencing it, so, maybe we teach what we most need to learn. I think we're all either facing, have faced, or will face,
00:35:39.540 --> 00:35:48.639 Jennifer Brown (she/her): you know, major life transitions, you know, because of personal reasons, and also, like, professional reasons, which is kind of what I focus on, and…
00:35:48.840 --> 00:35:56.920 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So many of us associate ourselves, our identity, with our jobs, with our professional journey, and also believed that
00:35:57.170 --> 00:36:14.659 Jennifer Brown (she/her): believed that things would continue to build. I think for previous generations, success begat success. It was, like you were building a brick wall, and, you know, you don't expect a brick wall to fall all the way to the ground and have to start all over again. And,
00:36:14.940 --> 00:36:26.480 Jennifer Brown (she/her): we, particularly Americans, are so attached to their work, so associated with it. Our ego, our sense of worth, our sense of accomplishment, where we fit, our belonging, our community.
00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:38.809 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So, I think so much of that is changing. Certainly my field is being separated from the things that gave us meaning, the things that allowed us to feel proud of
00:36:38.820 --> 00:36:56.849 Jennifer Brown (she/her): what we've done, at least we have in the past, but looking forward, we're just not sure where we can do what we've been trained to do. And we're certainly not the first, this is so obvious, not the first generation, not the first field, not the first industry, part of the country, part of the world, many, many people
00:36:57.060 --> 00:37:10.940 Jennifer Brown (she/her): never even had the chance to do something as deeply personal and fulfilling as I think the work I've been able to do is. The alignment of purpose, the alignment of impact.
00:37:10.990 --> 00:37:13.530 Jennifer Brown (she/her): the healing…
00:37:13.580 --> 00:37:20.249 Jennifer Brown (she/her): That it has enabled for so many people to do this work and represent it, and enable others to do it, and…
00:37:20.300 --> 00:37:38.420 Jennifer Brown (she/her): it's been this really amazing trajectory for the field. And we're in a… we're in a pause right now, but I think it's in a fundamental sort of disillusion. You know, I think about the caterpillar to the butterfly metaphor a lot. The caterpillar cannot become a butterfly without dissolving.
00:37:38.720 --> 00:37:55.900 Mira Brancu: And the dissolving is that the form disappears, the shape disappears, it turns into bug soup, it's like a slurry. Right? And it's in the cocoon, and what's happening in the cocoon is the reformation with all of the elements and the ingredients of.
00:37:56.040 --> 00:38:03.309 Jennifer Brown (she/her): who that being is, but recombining. Recombining in a way that the caterpillar could never have foreseen.
00:38:04.060 --> 00:38:05.160 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So…
00:38:05.330 --> 00:38:22.999 Jennifer Brown (she/her): if we… if we believe that life has cycles, professional lives have cycles, who we are to the world, and what our value-add is to the world is… is destined to go through these shifts. These aren't incremental shifts, these are major shifts, and they're… they require a letting go.
00:38:23.050 --> 00:38:37.350 Jennifer Brown (she/her): They require a grieving, they require a deep faith that there is another form and shape in the future, but that you cannot get to that without allowing the form and the shape to dissolve.
00:38:38.060 --> 00:38:56.490 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And what I'm talking about is a personal aspect, and also the field, I think. In its way that we practiced it for 30 years. We made all the arguments we did, we set the… you know, we argued it, we… the rationale, all of the data points, all of the strategies that we built in organizations.
00:38:56.590 --> 00:39:03.669 Jennifer Brown (she/her): I think the change that's happening is much bigger than even that. I think organizations are going through massive change.
00:39:03.740 --> 00:39:16.820 Jennifer Brown (she/her): in everything, from structure to hierarchy to, you know, AI to the role of humans versus AI in the org… like, in the organization, to maybe economic difficulties that they couldn't even imagine.
00:39:17.070 --> 00:39:27.769 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So, I do think that what's happening in my field is a microcosm of, I think, a much, much larger, big change that's going on.
00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:43.670 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So, that being said, I find that somehow comforting, because there's a lot… it's happening at scale, so it's something we are all going to have in common, is that we're all sitting here questioning what is left for me of the old.
00:39:43.780 --> 00:39:57.840 Jennifer Brown (she/her): what can I hold onto, and am I clinging to it? Am I defending it? Am I changing the names? Am I trying to make it to survive? Am I… am I… am I allowing myself to feel completely depressed because it doesn't survive anymore in the form that it was?
00:39:57.990 --> 00:40:03.019 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Or am I… Am I sitting with the disillusion?
00:40:03.500 --> 00:40:05.319 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And am I…
00:40:06.030 --> 00:40:22.570 Jennifer Brown (she/her): just pausing, and am I reconsidering? Am I doing the thinking that's asked of me right now? Am I doing the existing that's being asked of me? And am I also… am I willing to wipe the slate clean and yet bring all the ingredients that we still possess?
00:40:22.730 --> 00:40:27.299 Jennifer Brown (she/her): We still possess those. We still possess all the wisdom of the work.
00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:40.899 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Not the form and the shape and necessarily the way that we instituted it in organizations, but the ideas of it will never die. It's like that wonderful proverb, you know, they tried to bury us, but they didn't realize we were seeds.
00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:59.739 Jennifer Brown (she/her): The seeds contain the DNA of the work, and of the communities that have done it, and the people, and the strength of the community, and the bravery. All that is there. So, my question I sit with is, what's the next form? And there was a form that formed 30 years ago, or 40 years ago. That formed out of nothing.
00:41:00.470 --> 00:41:12.520 Jennifer Brown (she/her): that came out of… I don't even know, it organically emerged, and then we followed this recipe and this playbook for decades, really. It really didn't change all that much. It just got more intense.
00:41:12.520 --> 00:41:23.729 Jennifer Brown (she/her): there was more accountability, you know, all the ways that I've described it as changing, but it… in my professional lifetime with this work, I don't… I would never say there were fundamental changes.
00:41:24.030 --> 00:41:32.729 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So… so, is this… is this back to… the cycle has to, at some point, reset, and then we have another climb ahead?
00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:50.620 Jennifer Brown (she/her): But we don't want to climb with the same baggage that we had, and we don't want to try to pull all that baggage forward with us either. We need… the new generations don't even understand, in some ways, DEI in the way that we perceived it, in the way that we created it. Like, it's a different language now.
00:41:50.620 --> 00:42:09.729 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And the careabouts and the what's in it for me is for companies and organizations, and I think it's shifted, too. It's shifting. So, this is an opportunity to rethink and really, really rebirth it, not incrementally change it and hope that we can return to everything that we always did. And that's really, really hard.
00:42:10.070 --> 00:42:15.150 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, what I mean… what I'm hearing is, well, first of all.
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:26.730 Mira Brancu: People who have been engaging in inclusive leadership practices have many of the tools already within them to face this moment, because they've faced
00:42:27.170 --> 00:42:44.580 Mira Brancu: really hard things before that many people have not had to face, you know? Uncertainty, scrutiny, questioning, challenging, you know, being rejected, you know, shut down, all of these things, and they've found ways
00:42:44.890 --> 00:42:53.369 Mira Brancu: to work through those, so it's not like they don't have that skill set. And I think sometimes, like you said, it is about separating
00:42:54.030 --> 00:42:55.860 Mira Brancu: the… the titles?
00:42:56.270 --> 00:43:10.860 Mira Brancu: You know, or the frameworks that make you think that's my identity, from your actual skill set that you've developed for a very long time and you can apply in a very different way, to kind of where we're going.
00:43:11.100 --> 00:43:19.430 Jennifer Brown (she/her): You know what it is? It's accessing your wisdom. You know, it's… there's the book learning, there's the degrees, there's the… the skills.
00:43:19.580 --> 00:43:25.740 Jennifer Brown (she/her): But beneath that, there are intuition, instincts, wisdom, heart.
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:42.029 Jennifer Brown (she/her): the intangibles. And I think that when you're in the DEI world, and then you're advocating, you're doing this work on yourself, you're deepening as a human. I mean, it's truly… you are evolving, and you're being evolved by the work, and the daily inquiry, and the struggles, and the challenges, so…
00:43:42.030 --> 00:43:50.429 Jennifer Brown (she/her): I think you're completely right, that we all contain all of this, actually, but we forget it. I think we forget that we have it.
00:43:50.980 --> 00:43:58.110 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah, and I'm also hearing that, like, we sometimes forget because of the fact that,
00:43:59.030 --> 00:44:02.340 Mira Brancu: Doing this kind of work takes such
00:44:03.350 --> 00:44:07.870 Mira Brancu: Concerted effort and persistence for so long.
00:44:08.040 --> 00:44:13.919 Mira Brancu: That we sometimes forget that it's okay to take a pause
00:44:14.020 --> 00:44:33.409 Mira Brancu: And that this is the sort of cocooning phase that we just need to sort of look within for a little while and reflect, what does this mean? Look at the trends, where are we going? Is there something I haven't seen yet that is sort of revealing itself before me?
00:44:33.670 --> 00:44:42.680 Jennifer Brown (she/her): That's right, that's right, yep. And, I think we keep pushing. We keep pushing, and we think if we just try harder, and just exhaust ourselves.
00:44:42.810 --> 00:44:56.860 Jennifer Brown (she/her): that somehow they'll get it, don't… well, they'll see, they'll finally see. It's this energy of, I'm just gonna show it, I'm just gonna prove it. But I think the flow of being together in community across difference.
00:44:57.180 --> 00:45:01.249 Jennifer Brown (she/her): I cannot feel like a push, because people don't respond to push.
00:45:01.370 --> 00:45:09.639 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So if we keep pushing harder, it's going to cause the opposite reaction. And that's kind of what the pendulum swinging, I think, is trying to teach us.
00:45:09.810 --> 00:45:13.549 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And I don't think we've learned how to really be together yet.
00:45:15.230 --> 00:45:28.580 Mira Brancu: This is good stuff, but we're reaching another ad break. When we come back, I want to dig into how you've been thinking about your new book. You asked us to rethink how we lead, heal, and evolve.
00:45:28.850 --> 00:45:31.150 Mira Brancu: And I'm curious…
00:45:31.260 --> 00:45:44.719 Mira Brancu: based on what we've been discussing, what might be some next steps that some folks could take away from today? So, we're reaching an outbreak, you're listening to the Hard Skills, we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:47:29.840 --> 00:47:37.199 Mira Brancu: Welcome, welcome back to The Hard Skills with our guest today, Jennifer Brown. So, Jennifer…
00:47:37.500 --> 00:47:43.619 Mira Brancu: In your new book, you want us to rethink how we lead, heal, and evolve.
00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:47.230 Mira Brancu: In this time of deep transformation.
00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:58.069 Mira Brancu: And one of the things that you, indicate there, on the sort of main page that I've been reading, is that you want us to stand with change.
00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:01.070 Mira Brancu: Not as a form of defeat.
00:48:01.460 --> 00:48:06.670 Mira Brancu: But as a radical act of presence, humility, and humanity.
00:48:07.500 --> 00:48:08.899 Mira Brancu: Love all of this.
00:48:09.610 --> 00:48:17.500 Mira Brancu: So, if I were an inclusive leader listening to this, someone who feels a lot of loss, grief.
00:48:18.070 --> 00:48:27.580 Mira Brancu: even anger, frustration, all the things, right? Wondering where to turn. How might I be thinking about
00:48:27.800 --> 00:48:32.130 Mira Brancu: this from your perspective. What could I do, next?
00:48:32.360 --> 00:48:39.880 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Hmm… Yes, yes, yes. Well, I loved what we were talking about before the break, that
00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:50.390 Jennifer Brown (she/her): you can do hard things, and you've done hard things. Like, we all have. We've persisted, and broken through, and been the first.
00:48:50.650 --> 00:49:05.479 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And hung in there, and been resilient, and we just have this strength in us. So if you're listening to this, and you, you know, this is the kind of thing you listen to, you are already so equipped.
00:49:05.710 --> 00:49:10.070 Jennifer Brown (she/her): For whatever's next, and you are equipped for what's happening now.
00:49:10.660 --> 00:49:14.120 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So I, I also want to say that,
00:49:14.250 --> 00:49:18.510 Jennifer Brown (she/her): you know, I just want to honor the heart… the deep heart work of
00:49:18.690 --> 00:49:23.880 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Of what we've believed in, and how we've stood up for each other, and how…
00:49:23.950 --> 00:49:38.879 Jennifer Brown (she/her): we've… we've learned and challenged ourselves, like, that's such a beautiful thing to celebrate. And, and look at the way that what you've done, the work you've done, or what, I don't know, whatever your role or hat that you've worn.
00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:47.730 Jennifer Brown (she/her): has evolved you beyond maybe your wildest dreams? Like, who the person you are now versus the person you used to be, the things that you've seen, the things you know how to do, the things…
00:49:47.810 --> 00:49:51.700 Jennifer Brown (she/her): You know, the accomplishments that you've really, really had. And…
00:49:51.950 --> 00:50:01.440 Jennifer Brown (she/her): It's truly celebrating that and using it as a way to understand your next path, because there are ingredients in all of it that matter.
00:50:01.650 --> 00:50:11.219 Jennifer Brown (she/her): There are… when I moved from one stage to another as a performer, I thought all was lost. I didn't know there was another stage. I didn't know I would ever feel…
00:50:11.370 --> 00:50:13.180 Jennifer Brown (she/her): At home, again.
00:50:13.290 --> 00:50:14.790 Jennifer Brown (she/her): doing what I do.
00:50:14.950 --> 00:50:16.760 Jennifer Brown (she/her): I thought it was over.
00:50:17.040 --> 00:50:29.240 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And… but that whole time, I had been incubating the next. I had been incubating it, and practicing it, and being in it, and… and developing new pathways in my head, and my heart, and in my body, and…
00:50:29.240 --> 00:50:37.849 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So I was… in a way, everything we do, and this includes my last 25 years in this work, I think is preparing me
00:50:37.850 --> 00:50:48.239 Jennifer Brown (she/her): has… the reason it's happened is it's prepared me for the next. So if you… if we can… there's just endless reframings like that that I've been doing and practicing to…
00:50:48.840 --> 00:50:54.349 Jennifer Brown (she/her): To take the pressure off myself to have the answers too prematurely as well.
00:50:55.330 --> 00:51:15.109 Jennifer Brown (she/her): But to, celebrate what I've done, what I've gained, what still lives in me, what is stronger now than ever before and more certain. What's clearer now about what brings you joy is also really important. If we were just rushing forward and this, all of this had never happened, which is happening.
00:51:15.110 --> 00:51:17.919 Jennifer Brown (she/her): We would not have had the time.
00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:28.840 Jennifer Brown (she/her): to reflect and recalibrate our lives towards, I hope, something that's even more joyful, even more fulfilling. And so many of us, I think, haven't been in the ideal place.
00:51:29.080 --> 00:51:43.729 Jennifer Brown (she/her): You know, we might love our work, but we weren't in the right exact spot. We were not exactly, you know, it was hard, or we weren't in the right role, or we were, whatever, not supported adequately. All these things, and I think that, things need to stop in order to
00:51:43.730 --> 00:51:49.510 Jennifer Brown (she/her): get the train on a new set of tracks and go. You just can't keep up 60 miles an hour.
00:51:49.810 --> 00:52:05.380 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And, oh, I'm gonna change on the fly. Sometimes we have to be stopped in our tracks, literally, to pick our head up, to get the quiet we need to really consider a lot of these things. And remember, finally, you are not alone.
00:52:05.470 --> 00:52:10.649 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Like we described earlier, there are so many of us going through this wrenching
00:52:10.910 --> 00:52:20.970 Jennifer Brown (she/her): forced change. This is not the kind of change that, oh, it sort of happens, you know, life, whatever. I mean, this is kind of an artificial…
00:52:21.310 --> 00:52:24.370 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Sort of, you know, take a hammer to it.
00:52:24.520 --> 00:52:25.000 Mira Brancu: cheating.
00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:32.870 Jennifer Brown (she/her): But I would say that… that we never would have probably… would we have had the courage to create this kind of deep change?
00:52:32.900 --> 00:52:47.109 Jennifer Brown (she/her): In ourselves, in our lives, in our communities, in our work, in our field, I don't know. I think that we cling, I think that we don't want… we say we want change, but we're not willing to go through the chrysalis phase and be dissolved.
00:52:47.410 --> 00:52:52.950 Jennifer Brown (she/her): in order to create something beautiful that we never even imagined, I think we don't, as humans, seek that.
00:52:53.200 --> 00:52:55.970 Jennifer Brown (she/her): It's hard, and it's unpleasant.
00:52:56.180 --> 00:52:59.679 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So, if we see this moment as happening for us.
00:53:00.360 --> 00:53:08.130 Jennifer Brown (she/her): It is a very different framing, and that, I think, calls us to action in a really different way, not calls us to inaction.
00:53:08.330 --> 00:53:24.790 Jennifer Brown (she/her): But calls us to reflection and, you know, the quiet and the observation of, I like to observe nature in all of its cycles and look for the lessons there, and reconnect with that as a human that thinks that we can skip all the cycles and continue to push along.
00:53:25.170 --> 00:53:40.850 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Without going through what we really have to go through. And we have to go through it. Everybody, every field, I think every career, honestly. You know, when you are shut out of something, that is sometimes when tremendous magic happens. But that has to happen. The catalyst
00:53:40.850 --> 00:54:00.029 Jennifer Brown (she/her): is the destruction, is the forest fire that we can't… if we prevent the forest fire, then we have massive ecological problems, because we are preventing a cycle that has to happen in order for the rebirth and the regrowth to happen. So, just look around you. That is the way the world works. Humans think they don't need to do it.
00:54:01.060 --> 00:54:02.980 Jennifer Brown (she/her): I don't think so.
00:54:02.980 --> 00:54:11.849 Mira Brancu: I love that. I love that, that, you know, framing of this is and must have… it has to happen as a part of transformation.
00:54:12.040 --> 00:54:14.380 Mira Brancu: And you can't…
00:54:14.830 --> 00:54:32.380 Mira Brancu: get to another level of transformation without the painful part of this piece. And perhaps we might have been saved from what Dr. Kim Case calls, social justice cannibalism, where we eat each other up
00:54:32.500 --> 00:54:37.550 Mira Brancu: Instead, which we were, and instead, maybe this was
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:42.829 Mira Brancu: a way to find another path forward. Save us from our.
00:54:42.830 --> 00:54:53.810 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Weirdly, because we definitely don't feel like that's what's happening, but if you really zoom out, it's very possible that we had reached a level of maturity
00:54:54.090 --> 00:54:56.240 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And that we were in decline. It's possible.
00:54:56.240 --> 00:54:58.020 Mira Brancu: I mean…
00:54:58.020 --> 00:55:02.600 Jennifer Brown (she/her): There are innovation cycles that hit a peak and degenerate.
00:55:02.620 --> 00:55:10.459 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And if you don't, at the same time as degeneration, don't pick up the new, and you don't hop over, and you don't begin another process.
00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:20.209 Jennifer Brown (she/her): you're gonna be dead in the water, and I do think there was tremendous, tremendous, you know, progress, but I also wonder… we needed to be paused.
00:55:20.210 --> 00:55:31.300 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And needed to kind of absorb and metabolize everything that happened, and then move forward in a different way with that metabolized, with that digested.
00:55:31.300 --> 00:55:35.490 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And the wisdom that comes from that. We need to lead with that wisdom.
00:55:35.490 --> 00:55:48.800 Jennifer Brown (she/her): But you cannot skate. You can't jump from lily pad to lily pad to lily pad endlessly. Like, you… you need… you need to have that moment to digest and become stronger. And I think that might be what this is happening for.
00:55:49.130 --> 00:56:04.719 Mira Brancu: Yeah, that is a great message. If people want to find out more about you, I'm going to share some websites, but for those who are not going to be watching, if they're going to be listening, where can they go to find out more about you and the work that you do?
00:56:04.720 --> 00:56:11.469 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Thank you. I'm at Jenniferbrownespeaks.com, everybody, and I'm on LinkedIn and Instagram as at JenniferBrownspeaks.
00:56:11.600 --> 00:56:19.339 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And, I have all these books. The latest is The Shape of Change. The one before it, is How to Be an Inclusive Leader.
00:56:19.520 --> 00:56:22.009 Jennifer Brown (she/her): Yes, thank you very much for showing that.
00:56:22.040 --> 00:56:40.980 Jennifer Brown (she/her): And, we're always reachable at info at jenniferbrownespeaks.com, and in fact, if you'd like a first preview, a first chapter of the new book, we'd be happy to send you a PDF, so send me a note at info at jenniferbrownspeaks.com, and we would send it over to you. It's going to be out in November, is the plan.
00:56:40.980 --> 00:56:53.879 Jennifer Brown (she/her): So this is really a preview, and we would love to share it with all of you. So, we also have a resource that you're showing right now called Words That Build Belonging. If you go to our website, we'll share it in the show notes.
00:56:53.880 --> 00:57:01.850 Jennifer Brown (she/her): But it is an amazing guide for inclusive language, which is so… still so needed and part of our expansion.
00:57:01.850 --> 00:57:17.699 Mira Brancu: In our understanding of all of humanity. So, Words That Build Belonging is a resource that we'll be sharing. But thank you for having me. This was wonderful. Excellent. Excellent. Loved having you. And, hey, audience, what did you take away? And more importantly, what is one
00:57:17.730 --> 00:57:28.899 Mira Brancu: small change you can implement this week based on what you learn from Jennifer, even if that change is not visible to anybody else but you internally as you reflect.
00:57:28.950 --> 00:57:44.159 Mira Brancu: share it with us on LinkedIn. You could also share it with us at talkradio.nyc, so we can share you on. This podcast is also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Twitch, Apple, Spotify, Amazon.
00:57:44.300 --> 00:57:53.120 Mira Brancu: all of the places you go to see podcasts and you access them, it's gonna be there. So, if today's episode resonated for you.
00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:55.029 Mira Brancu: Share it with a colleague.
00:57:55.030 --> 00:58:19.719 Mira Brancu: And or also leave a review, and if you're looking for more personalized support from Jennifer, you saw how you can access her. If you're looking for, some of the leadership or team coaching that I mentioned, you can also go to Gotowerscope.com. Don't forget about registering by September 29th, by the way, for either the Anti-Burnout Leadership Lab or the Strategic Leadership Resiliency Fellowship.
00:58:20.310 --> 00:58:29.180 Mira Brancu: Thank you to TalkRadio.nyc for hosting. Together, we will navigate the complexities of leadership and emerge stronger on the other side.
00:58:29.490 --> 00:58:33.010 Mira Brancu: Thank you for joining me and Jennifer Brown today on this journey.
00:58:33.200 --> 00:58:42.430 Mira Brancu: This is Dr. Mira Brancou signing off, and until next time, stay steady, stay present, and keep building those hard skills muscles muscles.
00:58:42.850 --> 00:58:44.150 Mira Brancu: Take care, everybody.
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