Listeners will learn to recognize the subtle signs of emotional abuse that often go undetected - even by those experiencing it. Through Ivan's powerful transformation from confusion to empowerment, audiences will discover how professional guidance can help break free from manipulation and gaslighting.
This episode offers hope and practical tools for anyone suspecting they or someone they love is trapped in an emotionally abusive relationship. Ivan's candid story addresses the shame and fear that keep people (especially men) silent about emotional abuse, while demonstrating that healing and healthy love are possible.
Audiences will understand the crucial role trusted advisors play in helping people see clearly and find courage to reclaim their power. "Unseen Abuse" doesn't just identify the problem - it provides a roadmap for healing and moving forward.
Whether you're struggling in your own relationship, supporting someone who is, or want to understand this hidden epidemic, this conversation offers both eye-opening awareness and genuine hope. It could literally save someone's life or relationship.
What happens when abuse leaves no visible marks but devastates your soul? In this powerful episode, we explore emotional and psychological abuse through Ivan Leong's story—a successful businessman trapped in a toxic marriage without realizing he was being abused. Like many men, Ivan believed abuse was only physical, missing the invisible chains of manipulation and gaslighting destroying his confidence. Through guidance sessions with host Jacinta of Jacinta Healing Arts, Ivan learned to recognize the devastating patterns that had become his reality.
Ivan's transformation from victim to survivor offers hope to anyone living in the shadows of unseen abuse. His journey reveals how Jacinta's professional guidance became the lifeline helping him break free from manipulation and reclaim his power. From false accusations to painful separation, and ultimately finding healthy love again, Ivan demonstrates that healing is possible. This episode exposes the hidden epidemic of emotional abuse while providing a roadmap for recognition, escape, and recovery that could change your life.
Tune in for this thoughtful conversation at TalkRadio.nyc or watch the Livestream by Clicking Here.
In this episode of Beneath the Calm, host Jacinta Yang introduces Ivan Leung, who bravely shares his hidden journey of recognizing and leaving an emotionally abusive relationship. Ivan explains how, as a man, he initially dismissed the signs of abuse because it wasn’t physical, and how society often discourages men from speaking seriously about such struggles. His story highlights the importance of safe spaces where men can open up, reclaim their dignity, and learn that emotional abuse is real, damaging, and worth seeking help to overcome.
In this segment of Beneath the Calm, Ivan opens up about the fears that kept him from leaving—mainly the fear of being judged as a failure by his family, community, and himself. He explains how cultural expectations and the stigma of being seen as a “victim” made it even harder to share his struggles, especially with his parents, until he realized they would have supported him all along. Ivan describes how emotional abuse drained his energy, robbed him of peace in everyday activities like golfing or even shopping, and left him unable to be truly present in life—a powerful reminder that abuse isn’t always visible, but its impact is just as real.
In this segment of Beneath the Calm, Ivan reflects on how essential it was to have someone help him recognize where the line of abuse truly lay and to find the courage to leave. He emphasizes that many men doubt themselves, wondering if the problem is their fault, but an outside perspective is often what shows that the situation is intolerable and cannot be fixed alone. Ivan’s story ends with hope—at 60, he rebuilt his life, found safety and love in a new relationship, and now encourages other men to seek support, recognize the signs, and believe that there really is light at the end of the tunnel.
In this final part of Beneath the Calm, Ivan reflects on how men often mask their pain with jokes, making it hard to tell when someone is truly reaching out for help. He shares that while he wouldn’t step into a stranger’s situation casually, his own experience has given him the “antenna” to recognize real cries for help and offer support when it’s needed. The conversation ends with encouragement that both men and women deserve to draw the line on abuse, seek help, and remember that even after hitting rock bottom, life can get better and brighter.
00:00:42.070 --> 00:00:49.430 Jacinta Yang: Welcome to Beneath the Calm. I'm Jacintha Yang, your host. This is our third episode.
00:00:49.650 --> 00:00:55.250 Jacinta Yang: A space where we get together and explore what's happening.
00:00:55.690 --> 00:01:00.760 Jacinta Yang: When the world is not watching. Today, I'm sitting down with Ivan Leung.
00:01:00.910 --> 00:01:08.159 Jacinta Yang: With him, we'll have a conversation that is going to be one of the most important ones of this show.
00:01:08.470 --> 00:01:15.329 Jacinta Yang: Ivan's story challenges us Through what we think and know about strength.
00:01:15.520 --> 00:01:18.610 Jacinta Yang: And who the victim can be.
00:01:19.590 --> 00:01:23.950 Jacinta Yang: And to also know what the calm exterior represents.
00:01:24.880 --> 00:01:29.590 Jacinta Yang: It's what's behind or beneath that Kong that we're struggling.
00:01:30.230 --> 00:01:39.480 Jacinta Yang: that's deeply emotional and damaging. Ivan's story encourages us
00:01:40.030 --> 00:01:47.610 Jacinta Yang: it's going… Ivan's gonna share his, story about how he recognized his,
00:01:47.810 --> 00:01:50.439 Jacinta Yang: Struggles that he went through.
00:01:51.520 --> 00:01:56.239 Jacinta Yang: And how he overcame, and the courage to leave.
00:01:56.470 --> 00:01:58.750 Jacinta Yang: his abusive situation.
00:01:59.810 --> 00:02:06.080 Jacinta Yang: It's both heartbreaking and inspiring, and I'd like to thank Ivan for joining us today.
00:02:06.210 --> 00:02:15.410 Jacinta Yang: To share with us, and whether you are someone who is Understanding what your story is.
00:02:15.590 --> 00:02:20.319 Jacinta Yang: or question, or feel trapped, or in a situation. I want to understand.
00:02:21.800 --> 00:02:24.960 Jacinta Yang: Better understand the hidden struggle people face.
00:02:25.070 --> 00:02:33.229 Jacinta Yang: this conversation is for you. Ivan, I want to thank you for joining us today, and I have to say.
00:02:33.420 --> 00:02:38.460 Jacinta Yang: Your story was what inspired me to create this space.
00:02:38.760 --> 00:02:45.930 Jacinta Yang: So, welcome to Beneath the Calm, and please tell… tell us about yourself, and also
00:02:46.300 --> 00:02:50.499 Jacinta Yang: A little bit about your story, of what you went through, and…
00:02:50.810 --> 00:02:53.490 Jacinta Yang: the reason why I invited you here today.
00:02:53.810 --> 00:02:55.300 Jacinta Yang: Welcome, Ivan.
00:02:56.340 --> 00:02:58.220 Ivan: Sure, hello, hello, Jacinta.
00:03:00.380 --> 00:03:02.510 Ivan: Of course, these are stories that are…
00:03:04.160 --> 00:03:11.810 Ivan: That, in my mind, is all over the map. You never know in… The story begins…
00:03:11.960 --> 00:03:18.100 Ivan: Although you know how it ends. And it's one of those things that creep up along During your life.
00:03:18.930 --> 00:03:24.099 Ivan: So, I'm gonna say that… At first, the relationship seems really good.
00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:28.619 Ivan: And I didn't even recognize that it was abusive.
00:03:29.470 --> 00:03:31.630 Ivan: Because I'm just holding it together.
00:03:32.040 --> 00:03:34.650 Ivan: I'm doing things to keep things smooth.
00:03:35.420 --> 00:03:38.679 Ivan: I'm… I'm doing my own thing.
00:03:40.010 --> 00:03:44.530 Ivan: And so, if… Situations get difficult.
00:03:45.670 --> 00:03:50.369 Ivan: I just deal with them. So I don't recognize what abuse looks like.
00:03:50.600 --> 00:03:53.149 Ivan: Until others recognize it.
00:03:53.430 --> 00:03:58.130 Ivan: And let me know. So what I'm doing is I'm working on a relationship.
00:03:59.200 --> 00:04:03.750 Ivan: And it takes others outside to recognize that It's futile.
00:04:04.570 --> 00:04:07.689 Ivan: So that's really how it is for me.
00:04:07.920 --> 00:04:16.300 Jacinta Yang: So, you and I have been working together for quite some time with your whole family as clients.
00:04:16.579 --> 00:04:25.740 Jacinta Yang: Tell us about how comfortable you felt reaching out to me during those difficult times. What made it easy for you to share what was really happening?
00:04:26.760 --> 00:04:32.679 Ivan: Well, to be frank, it wasn't so much it was easy. I got introduced to you because, at that time, my ex.
00:04:33.610 --> 00:04:35.640 Ivan: Was…
00:04:36.770 --> 00:04:46.010 Ivan: seeing you and talking to you. And at that particular time, I wasn't particularly interested, but she encouraged me to do so.
00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:53.399 Ivan: And so, I did, because I was not recognizing at that time, somewhat forced to.
00:04:54.730 --> 00:04:56.940 Ivan: But in talking to you, then, I just…
00:04:57.220 --> 00:04:59.770 Ivan: Eventually, it was you who started
00:05:00.440 --> 00:05:02.620 Ivan: Pointing out these things to me.
00:05:02.820 --> 00:05:05.149 Ivan: And it wasn't easy to recognize.
00:05:06.320 --> 00:05:08.430 Ivan: But it took a little while, and then…
00:05:09.490 --> 00:05:27.080 Ivan: obviously, as you open up, or you peel back one layer of the onion, I begin to see another, and I begin to see another. So it was a very gradual process, and even learning to listen and talk to you was a very gradual process. I didn't just open up.
00:05:27.140 --> 00:05:30.190 Ivan: Because I wasn't used to opening up like that.
00:05:30.400 --> 00:05:38.380 Ivan: But… but with little nuggets that you encourage, and then, of course, you know, if… if you asked a question.
00:05:38.490 --> 00:05:51.079 Ivan: I didn't avoid it, so I'd give something back. And every time I gave something back, it just peeled back another layer. So that's really how it went. It was a gradual process of understanding what was going on.
00:05:52.080 --> 00:06:09.430 Jacinta Yang: Yeah, I remember you would text me regularly for guidance, and I always used to, encourage you to be patient, to be kind, to be compassionate, and can you describe what those conversations meant to you during those confusing and isolating.
00:06:09.430 --> 00:06:18.079 Ivan: So it was confusing in the beginning, because I did all those things. I was kind, and I was following the advice.
00:06:19.730 --> 00:06:30.540 Ivan: But in hindsight, it was all just… it was kind of a wasted effort, because I felt as if I was being manipulated by my ex to be like that.
00:06:31.130 --> 00:06:36.010 Ivan: So, of course, without you fully understanding, because at that time I hadn't shared everything.
00:06:36.330 --> 00:06:40.290 Ivan: The natural tendency is, well, be kind, be more understanding.
00:06:41.260 --> 00:06:45.760 Ivan: But in fact, that was really futile, because whatever I did, it wasn't gonna work.
00:06:46.140 --> 00:06:49.640 Ivan: So, my ex was bent on destroying the relationship.
00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:52.820 Ivan: And I wasn't aware of that at that time.
00:06:53.430 --> 00:06:57.840 Jacinta Yang: Well, I guess at that time, I didn't really know the full story. Correct.
00:06:58.140 --> 00:07:12.490 Jacinta Yang: the only thing I could do is, encourage you to… to have patience, you know, to be more patient, to be more compassionate. Now that you mentioned that I've helped you recognize that you're experiencing emotional abuse.
00:07:12.630 --> 00:07:16.509 Jacinta Yang: Can you take us through that process a little bit more, please?
00:07:19.170 --> 00:07:25.240 Ivan: Well, I was still in the process of trying to find a way to Keep it all together.
00:07:25.590 --> 00:07:36.309 Ivan: And it really just got to the point where I was, like, saying, this is crazy. I said, you know, I'm doing everything to keep it together, but she's not. What's the next step?
00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:41.930 Ivan: And it was really you at that time that says, well, Then you walk away.
00:07:43.250 --> 00:07:48.359 Ivan: And it really hit me hard, because that wasn't what I wanted at the time.
00:07:48.530 --> 00:08:02.140 Ivan: I said, but, you know, that's just, like, it's giving up on it. And it was really a conversation that you gave, that I need to hold on to my own dignity, too, because this wasn't… you never used the word abuse at the time.
00:08:02.140 --> 00:08:02.740 Jacinta Yang: No.
00:08:02.740 --> 00:08:15.709 Ivan: But… but certainly it was… it was… it was more focused, because you were focused on me. It was… I need to hold my own dignity, I gotta make a stand, and I gotta draw a line in the sand and say, this is enough.
00:08:16.850 --> 00:08:21.020 Ivan: And it never occurred to me before that there was a line that there was…
00:08:21.410 --> 00:08:26.070 Ivan: you know, it felt as if this line was just gonna keep on moving, and I was okay with it.
00:08:26.540 --> 00:08:29.740 Jacinta Yang: Yeah, actually, I think, because I was,
00:08:29.970 --> 00:08:33.600 Jacinta Yang: Your holistic, your healer for your family.
00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:38.049 Jacinta Yang: And I had to see from the outside and have a…
00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:43.159 Jacinta Yang: an approach that was not taking anybody's side, so I needed to understand
00:08:43.350 --> 00:09:00.089 Jacinta Yang: the whole situation. Of course, I was hearing a different side of the story, and then, you know, it was not easy for me, to really make any kind of judgment call at that time. So, you mentioned that… now, I want to ask you, as a man.
00:09:00.510 --> 00:09:11.919 Jacinta Yang: Do you have a preconceived notion what abuse looked like, and how did that affect your ability to recognize emotional abuse initially?
00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:19.799 Ivan: I had no idea what abuse looks like. In my view, as a man, abuse is a physical abuse.
00:09:20.620 --> 00:09:23.829 Ivan: So, obviously, there was no physical abuse.
00:09:24.650 --> 00:09:32.020 Ivan: And, so I didn't recognize it as abuse. I just recognized this as a disagreement.
00:09:33.300 --> 00:09:35.550 Ivan: And someone being difficult.
00:09:36.250 --> 00:09:41.479 Ivan: But it… to me, it wasn't abuse. It was… I mean, I… I could have fought back.
00:09:41.650 --> 00:09:44.390 Ivan: And I did, and we could have argued, and…
00:09:44.810 --> 00:09:49.239 Ivan: It's just that the conversations would just never get anywhere. There was just…
00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:59.420 Ivan: It never ended off well, there was never any resolution to it, but to me, it wasn't abuse, so it didn't land as abuse.
00:09:59.460 --> 00:10:02.510 Jacinta Yang: And it really took someone from the outside.
00:10:02.510 --> 00:10:05.900 Ivan: The first time to really say, this is abuse.
00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:07.740 Ivan: And,
00:10:09.270 --> 00:10:17.369 Ivan: And I didn't recognize it as abuse, so… so really, that's what it is. As a man, you don't recognize it as abuse, because we… we just tend to fix things.
00:10:17.800 --> 00:10:22.910 Jacinta Yang: Oh, also, I guess as a man, you think that abuse is more physical.
00:10:23.160 --> 00:10:34.660 Ivan: Correct. Yeah, yes, it's physical harm. So, obviously, I mean, in that situation, there was… there was nothing my spouse could do that could physically harm me.
00:10:35.690 --> 00:10:44.659 Ivan: But actually, in hindsight, that was even worse, because not being able to get any sleep and rest and peace actually turns out to be worse than physical.
00:10:44.970 --> 00:11:02.420 Jacinta Yang: Oh, yeah, I remember those late nights. And you wondered, oh, how come you're still up? Well, you texted me for some support. I mean, obviously you weren't expecting a response, but I guess I do, take…
00:11:02.730 --> 00:11:12.629 Jacinta Yang: supporting someone very seriously, and I could sense and feel your, I guess…
00:11:13.590 --> 00:11:15.970 Jacinta Yang: Urgency and some support.
00:11:15.970 --> 00:11:29.160 Ivan: Yes, I wasn't expecting a reply at early hours of the morning, but I just needed to get something on, because otherwise it was… when you're under stress, you just need to communicate with something.
00:11:30.050 --> 00:11:42.310 Jacinta Yang: So, I recall, I know you mentioned that you didn't recognize that it's abuse, right? And also, partially, I think you were also trying to keep everything
00:11:42.470 --> 00:11:47.040 Jacinta Yang: You know, to yourself, other than me, and probably a couple.
00:11:47.040 --> 00:12:00.179 Ivan: Oh, totally! This is not something that I share easily, and I don't particularly think any man shares this with anybody, really. It's almost as if society just
00:12:00.760 --> 00:12:17.880 Ivan: doesn't allow a man to speak. Now, we can speak, but it's in a somewhat of a joking fashion to your friends, you know? It's like, something like, I got yelled at my wife, and everybody goes, oh yeah, so did I. So it's… it's really spoken at that level. Nobody really takes it that seriously.
00:12:19.560 --> 00:12:23.429 Ivan: So, so to actually know what it looks like.
00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:28.409 Ivan: It's… it's not easy, because not everybody shares it at that level.
00:12:28.750 --> 00:12:38.110 Jacinta Yang: No, and that's actually part of the reason why I feel that I needed to create a space for men to
00:12:38.420 --> 00:12:41.710 Jacinta Yang: To feel that there is a space for them.
00:12:41.830 --> 00:12:45.140 Jacinta Yang: To be seen, to be heard, and not be judged.
00:12:45.380 --> 00:12:52.119 Jacinta Yang: And I know that you had mentioned at that time that you felt that you needed to work this out
00:12:52.410 --> 00:12:58.860 Jacinta Yang: Because this is your second marriage, and you don't want to be a failure. Can you explain that a little bit, please?
00:12:58.860 --> 00:13:08.139 Ivan: Oh, that's correct. So, I mean, you know, at least with me, I didn't want the first one to fail, but it happened. So when it comes to the second one.
00:13:08.500 --> 00:13:18.150 Ivan: I really didn't want to have to go through this again. There's a… there's a certain, level I just didn't want to be a disappointment to…
00:13:18.530 --> 00:13:20.139 Ivan: Family around me.
00:13:20.590 --> 00:13:24.980 Ivan: So that's why I didn't want this to be a failure. I was determined to make this work.
00:13:25.630 --> 00:13:32.940 Ivan: But not only was it an uphill battle, it was actually… It was actually a logo.
00:13:36.470 --> 00:13:43.530 Jacinta Yang: Looking back, we're laughing at it now, but back then, oh boy, it was… It was tough, I mean…
00:13:44.050 --> 00:13:51.529 Ivan: You said it was tough. So coming back to it, you know, the other reason we don't recognize abuse is because I've never seen it before.
00:13:54.260 --> 00:14:08.280 Ivan: we tend to see it as a joke when other people talk about it, because you don't know how serious it is now. It's not to say that I haven't spoken to other people, or other men, for example, who talk about, you know, how they are treated.
00:14:09.710 --> 00:14:17.650 Ivan: But I don't know if any of us are ever in the space to say, well, then just get out of there. Most of us go, haha, yeah, we've got the same thing.
00:14:18.310 --> 00:14:28.929 Ivan: But we don't understand the degree of how deep it goes, and what's involved. And I think that most men just ride it out.
00:14:30.270 --> 00:14:36.759 Jacinta Yang: Thank you, Ivan. We're going to be going on a short break, and then we'll come back and, continue.
00:14:37.210 --> 00:14:37.710 Ivan: Okay?
00:16:55.140 --> 00:17:07.140 Jacinta Yang: Welcome back to Beneath the Calm, a space where we have conversation about Life Matters, C-A-L-M, a space where you can share your stories.
00:17:07.270 --> 00:17:10.400 Jacinta Yang: Where you feel seen, heard, and not judged.
00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:17.420 Jacinta Yang: Today, we're sitting with Ivan. Welcome back, Ivan. And… some more questions.
00:17:17.730 --> 00:17:26.470 Jacinta Yang: Now, you were afraid to take action, weren't you? Can you describe what you were afraid of? I know I had to give you some
00:17:26.650 --> 00:17:32.539 Jacinta Yang: really direct advice, I told you, you have the balls, literally use them.
00:17:32.780 --> 00:17:36.850 Jacinta Yang: So what was that going through your mind when I said that to you?
00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:42.420 Jacinta Yang: Unmute.
00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:44.170 Jacinta Yang: Unmute.
00:17:47.270 --> 00:17:52.240 Ivan: when I look back, the, the biggest fear, really, is,
00:17:53.980 --> 00:17:56.250 Ivan: It's the social circles around me.
00:17:58.420 --> 00:18:02.630 Ivan: I guess, ultimately, it's,
00:18:04.070 --> 00:18:06.060 Ivan: I didn't want it to fail.
00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:12.109 Ivan: Because I didn't want the people around me to think that I was a failure at this.
00:18:12.970 --> 00:18:15.169 Ivan: So that would be the biggest fear.
00:18:19.320 --> 00:18:27.190 Ivan: And I suppose there's also fear of the immediate family around, who not everybody's totally aware of it, only the people who could see it.
00:18:27.460 --> 00:18:32.669 Ivan: And nobody really knew the extent of what I was going through.
00:18:33.140 --> 00:18:41.760 Ivan: Because, obviously, this is not something that I would even give to the closest of people until it's very obvious.
00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:49.550 Ivan: So, the fear is really how we are perceived.
00:18:49.910 --> 00:18:57.590 Ivan: And I really didn't want to have to be perceived as a second-round failure. So that was really the biggest fear.
00:18:59.430 --> 00:19:06.580 Jacinta Yang: But, you know, this is actually, not your, doing of being failing, because
00:19:06.750 --> 00:19:09.709 Jacinta Yang: You tried everything. I know you've tried everything.
00:19:09.710 --> 00:19:25.900 Ivan: Yes, but that's just my perception. From my viewpoint, that's what I can deal with. I don't really… I mean, there was… there's no way we can control how the outside is treating us. You can only react in that particular situation. And my reaction was just…
00:19:26.030 --> 00:19:27.690 Ivan: I'm just gonna hold on.
00:19:27.860 --> 00:19:34.959 Jacinta Yang: I guess you thought that you'll be seen as a failure, not knowing that people can actually understand.
00:19:35.500 --> 00:19:45.180 Ivan: Absolutely correct. It's all about… at that moment when it feels as if all the spotlights are on me only, and
00:19:45.360 --> 00:19:51.749 Ivan: It never even occurred to me that people could look at this and say, it's not you, it's the other side.
00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.989 Ivan: Yeah, so that's how you would see it, because it's almost as if…
00:19:57.550 --> 00:20:05.310 Ivan: You could feel like you don't want to be the victim, but you know you are. But you… you don't want to be seen as the victim.
00:20:05.640 --> 00:20:08.119 Jacinta Yang: Oh, you don't want to acknowledge at that time.
00:20:08.120 --> 00:20:09.290 Ivan: Absolutely.
00:20:09.390 --> 00:20:10.570 Ivan: Absolutely.
00:20:10.570 --> 00:20:23.749 Jacinta Yang: And also, I know the biggest struggle you had was to share it with your parents, because there was a time where I know that your ex was trying to cut off all your lifeline.
00:20:23.930 --> 00:20:33.720 Jacinta Yang: and they… that was including me, and I was trying to make sure you had a lifeline, and asked you to share it with your parents. Even you had struggles
00:20:33.830 --> 00:20:36.069 Jacinta Yang: Trying to share it with your parents.
00:20:36.190 --> 00:20:44.249 Jacinta Yang: But I did encourage you to let you know that I'm sure they will support you. Can you share with… with us about that?
00:20:44.250 --> 00:20:48.829 Ivan: Oh, that's… that's… that's absolutely true. I was trying to hide it from my parents.
00:20:49.380 --> 00:20:55.199 Ivan: So there's a cultural issue here involved as well, that, they… they were…
00:20:55.590 --> 00:20:59.720 Ivan: From my point of view, they would not be supportive of me running away.
00:21:00.320 --> 00:21:05.400 Ivan: or moving out of this. Of course, there was just my perception, and was I wrong?
00:21:05.690 --> 00:21:24.029 Ivan: And it… and it's not so much that they were going to counsel me out, but obviously they didn't want to see me have to go through a divorce a second time. So from their point of view, they weren't going to jump in and counsel me out, but obviously they didn't want to see me suffer either way.
00:21:24.580 --> 00:21:25.130 Jacinta Yang: Exactly.
00:21:25.130 --> 00:21:36.140 Ivan: looking at it backwards now, of course they were supporting me, and it turns out that, you know, had I been completely open with them at the time, they would have counseled me out.
00:21:36.870 --> 00:21:38.330 Jacinta Yang: Yeah, they would have.
00:21:38.520 --> 00:21:42.289 Ivan: And I… I just… I just could not see it, because…
00:21:42.530 --> 00:21:50.020 Ivan: I envisioned, or I anticipated that they would first have to go Pass this mental block.
00:21:50.860 --> 00:21:59.909 Ivan: And it just, to me, seemed insurmountable for them. But it turns out it would have been a hurdle, but they would have climbed it for me.
00:22:00.260 --> 00:22:06.090 Jacinta Yang: Yes, I, I, I know both your parents are just amazing, they are such amazing,
00:22:06.740 --> 00:22:17.920 Jacinta Yang: role model for you, and that's why you were such an amazing, kind, caring husband that you were. Unfortunately, the other side didn't see it.
00:22:18.020 --> 00:22:22.500 Ivan: And, I'm just so glad that you have that support.
00:22:22.510 --> 00:22:35.360 Jacinta Yang: And I'm glad that finally you did share it with them, because, I mean, there was a time that I had to step back, because I became, collateral damage in Europe.
00:22:35.590 --> 00:22:39.019 Ivan: It turns out that my dad, my dad sort of, like.
00:22:39.730 --> 00:22:42.829 Ivan: I don't think it… I don't think he was even phased.
00:22:43.670 --> 00:22:44.620 Ivan: you know.
00:22:45.140 --> 00:22:47.490 Jacinta Yang: They, they could see it.
00:22:47.660 --> 00:22:50.589 Jacinta Yang: They were just respecting your privacy.
00:22:50.590 --> 00:22:51.440 Ivan: Correct.
00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:53.610 Jacinta Yang: I'm not, asking you.
00:22:53.610 --> 00:22:54.000 Ivan: Sure.
00:22:54.240 --> 00:23:01.730 Jacinta Yang: I know that, our parents sometimes, when they feel like, okay, they're not saying anything to us, so we're going to respect
00:23:02.100 --> 00:23:12.519 Jacinta Yang: their privacy, which I feel… I… I felt that they were doing. And, I… I know I tried so hard to encourage you to talk to them.
00:23:12.990 --> 00:23:26.689 Ivan: So, absolutely, you were correct, but I couldn't see it at the time, and I think that also when there's too much pressure on us at that time, no matter how, our headlights just do not go far ahead enough.
00:23:27.620 --> 00:23:44.369 Jacinta Yang: And I can… I can relate to that, because we are both from the same culture, and while I was in my situation, also, I used to feel that, you know, talking to our parents is not going to help, because they expect us to stay and suffer.
00:23:45.040 --> 00:23:48.730 Jacinta Yang: Because there was no such thing as.
00:23:48.730 --> 00:23:49.709 Ivan: Yeah, in their time.
00:23:49.710 --> 00:23:51.130 Jacinta Yang: Speaking about abuse.
00:23:51.830 --> 00:24:03.440 Jacinta Yang: Right? Because it's a very private matter, and you don't share… it's kind of embarrassing to share such a situation with the public.
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:10.219 Jacinta Yang: Anyhow, how can you say that with the ongoing support and guidance.
00:24:10.420 --> 00:24:15.390 Jacinta Yang: From me, affect our ability to make such a difficult decision.
00:24:17.800 --> 00:24:25.189 Ivan: I think, firstly, we have to… we have to be able to express ourselves and know that someone's listening.
00:24:26.220 --> 00:24:28.580 Ivan: Because, in general.
00:24:28.850 --> 00:24:40.019 Ivan: even though I had probably joked about this before, no one's really listening. It turns out to be something of a… a joke. So, until someone really understands, to help
00:24:40.550 --> 00:24:47.410 Ivan: in my case, me understand. So I needed to talk to somebody to help me understand that
00:24:47.680 --> 00:25:02.099 Ivan: there is a bigger world out there, and there are other issues around, that it's not just me. So I think, really, at the end of the day, it's just to understand it wasn't… it's got to… I had to understand that it wasn't me that was the problem.
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:08.440 Ivan: So, so the biggest thing is, To stop blaming myself.
00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:16.429 Ivan: And the biggest thing, the other big thing is then to also understand that I really was doing
00:25:16.550 --> 00:25:30.879 Ivan: more than I needed to do to hold this thing together. But, you know, I didn't know that, because it felt as if walking into a relationship, it feels as if you're going to hold it together no matter what.
00:25:31.880 --> 00:25:34.760 Ivan: But even that, no matter what.
00:25:35.190 --> 00:25:40.100 Ivan: Has a line, and that line is when there's respect that has been lost.
00:25:40.100 --> 00:25:45.669 Jacinta Yang: So, it's not a matter of, of course, you can hold it together if there's respect.
00:25:45.670 --> 00:25:50.400 Ivan: But when that respect line disappears, then there's no particular point.
00:25:51.610 --> 00:26:05.770 Jacinta Yang: And I know, like, from working with you, I have to say, Ivan, you have done a lot more. You've given a lot more from your end than most relationships that I have.
00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:07.230 Jacinta Yang: observed.
00:26:07.410 --> 00:26:13.930 Jacinta Yang: So, I… I used… I used to shake my head, and… Wonder how…
00:26:14.350 --> 00:26:17.239 Jacinta Yang: The other party could not recognize
00:26:17.470 --> 00:26:19.760 Jacinta Yang: The golden mine she was sitting with.
00:26:20.060 --> 00:26:31.069 Jacinta Yang: You know? Anyhow, so can you please help our listeners understand how this invisible abuse was affecting every aspect of your life?
00:26:31.210 --> 00:26:46.129 Jacinta Yang: Your confidence, your relationship with your children, your sense of self. I know your relationship with your children was great. In fact, they could see that you were going through abuse, but you were still not
00:26:46.530 --> 00:26:48.080 Jacinta Yang: Acknowledging it.
00:26:49.710 --> 00:26:55.130 Ivan: Yeah, the invisible abuse comes, and it looks like this, because
00:26:55.510 --> 00:27:09.969 Ivan: The abuse is that they need 100% attention, or shall I say, 200% attention. And if it's 99, because 1% goes elsewhere, then the abuse steps up.
00:27:10.140 --> 00:27:16.009 Ivan: But in life and in reality, You can give 100%,
00:27:16.460 --> 00:27:26.430 Ivan: At a point, but if there's a squeal from, let's just say, your parents, or your kids, or your friends, then you need to…
00:27:26.680 --> 00:27:31.379 Ivan: Do some other stuff, because there's times when people need to look after themselves for a while.
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:35.850 Ivan: So… The abuse looks like.
00:27:36.770 --> 00:27:40.560 Ivan: I… I couldn't… I couldn't leave the house.
00:27:41.390 --> 00:27:48.140 Ivan: Because if I went shopping, it's… even for groceries, it would be, where did you go?
00:27:48.720 --> 00:28:07.249 Ivan: And then it looks even worse. I didn't want to come home, because I knew that I'd be subjected to even more questioning. So there's… there's a huge stress in being there, and there's a huge stress in not being there. So, which means that, really, there's a certain amount of
00:28:07.490 --> 00:28:19.069 Ivan: Conscious effort all the time in staying firm in trying to control the situation, which really means it takes away your energy
00:28:19.270 --> 00:28:26.280 Ivan: to do other things. So, for example, it takes away your energy to… perhaps,
00:28:26.670 --> 00:28:32.009 Ivan: go out and see friends. You'd rather not, because, you know, if you come back, you're going to be
00:28:32.220 --> 00:28:35.090 Ivan: subject to… Some sort of…
00:28:35.090 --> 00:28:35.990 Jacinta Yang: investigation.
00:28:35.990 --> 00:28:52.560 Ivan: That's right. Or it takes away from even an ability to go, for example, I love golfing. I couldn't golf in peace, because it's, like, 4 hours and the round is not over, I know when I go back, it's gonna be a disaster. So that… that spoils the game.
00:28:52.930 --> 00:28:58.280 Ivan: And so this emotional abuse actually destroys
00:28:58.470 --> 00:29:17.170 Ivan: Your ability to be present, because you're not present, you're living in what's going to happen, what you need to face when you're there, and then you're also living in the past as what you've been through. So you're never here. You're everywhere but here.
00:29:17.340 --> 00:29:19.419 Jacinta Yang: And you cannot really enjoy.
00:29:19.600 --> 00:29:28.160 Ivan: You can't. You can't. And so you're either preventing what could happen, or you're setting up so that it doesn't happen.
00:29:28.330 --> 00:29:33.299 Ivan: So you just can't be present, and that's a big waste of life.
00:29:33.670 --> 00:29:36.179 Jacinta Yang: Yeah, and it's, it's draining.
00:29:36.270 --> 00:29:44.900 Ivan: It's absolutely draining, so it takes away from your sleep, it takes away from just the ability to be happy, yeah.
00:29:45.460 --> 00:29:49.809 Jacinta Yang: We're gonna be taking a break again, and we'll come back shortly.
00:32:01.370 --> 00:32:09.780 Jacinta Yang: Welcome back to Beneath the Calm. Thank you for joining us today, sitting with Ivan on this very
00:32:09.990 --> 00:32:17.820 Jacinta Yang: Eye-opening, conversation about, abuse men usually go through, but they keep
00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:23.969 Jacinta Yang: quiet, and that's what, beneath the Calm, going through, keeping a,
00:32:24.340 --> 00:32:30.720 Jacinta Yang: calm exterior and composed, but struggling, underneath that. And I like to encourage
00:32:31.110 --> 00:32:36.190 Jacinta Yang: Those who are listening to this, please know that there is support out there for you.
00:32:36.380 --> 00:32:47.599 Jacinta Yang: You just need to reach out. Welcome back, Ivan. I am so grateful that you're here sharing your story to encourage other men to know that
00:32:48.120 --> 00:32:51.140 Jacinta Yang: It's okay. It's okay…
00:32:51.380 --> 00:33:04.120 Jacinta Yang: to be going through what you're going through, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Now, what would you like to say to the listener right now in recognizing themselves in your story?
00:33:05.770 --> 00:33:13.459 Jacinta Yang: And what would you tell them that is important, having someone, a trusted guide, to help them see clearly?
00:33:15.610 --> 00:33:24.700 Ivan: Yeah, I think that, someone who feels this way really just needs the help to identify
00:33:27.750 --> 00:33:31.890 Ivan: To be able to identify if it really is abuse or not.
00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:37.200 Ivan: Okay? Because we don't know where this line is.
00:33:37.670 --> 00:33:40.210 Ivan: So, I mean, it could be that
00:33:41.730 --> 00:33:48.330 Ivan: to be fair, I suppose it could be that it was my fault for perhaps not doing
00:33:48.850 --> 00:33:57.529 Ivan: my side of what was expected, and so maybe there needs to be an understanding of what I should be doing, and that's why the other side is unhappy.
00:33:57.820 --> 00:34:01.589 Ivan: So, so we need to get past that. Am I doing my part?
00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:08.090 Ivan: And then after that, it's like, well, if I'm doing my part, is the other side doing their part?
00:34:08.650 --> 00:34:17.989 Ivan: So, I think that we need to talk to someone to identify what that line is. We don't always know when we walk into a relationship, because it's…
00:34:19.400 --> 00:34:24.960 Ivan: There's a certain, maybe, level of understanding, we think, that,
00:34:25.070 --> 00:34:42.090 Ivan: generally people know where the… where the line is, and even if there's a big gray area, you have an idea where that gray area is, and you talk about maybe, you know, what I would do to make things better, or how you deal with conflicts. But until you get to that stage.
00:34:42.270 --> 00:34:43.870 Ivan: You really don't know.
00:34:45.100 --> 00:34:49.730 Ivan: So, once you get to that stage, and you're trying to resolve conflict.
00:34:50.030 --> 00:34:52.270 Ivan: Now, how far should we go?
00:34:52.620 --> 00:35:03.239 Ivan: I mean, do we really go to the end of the world, or not? In general, it would be… it would seem as if everybody should do their best. But what is the best?
00:35:03.470 --> 00:35:05.879 Ivan: And what is beyond?
00:35:06.200 --> 00:35:16.629 Ivan: So, talking to somebody will help resolve that issue. And until we can identify and say, this is really crazy, it seems like nobody goes through this much.
00:35:18.390 --> 00:35:22.559 Ivan: Then… then we can begin to make the next decision.
00:35:23.090 --> 00:35:26.269 Ivan: So in this particular case,
00:35:26.900 --> 00:35:31.960 Ivan: basically, Jacinta, you canceled me out. Which was… Which…
00:35:32.350 --> 00:35:48.919 Ivan: boggled my mind at the time, because you would think that someone who is helping you would find a way to resolve the issue, and we always think it's going to put everything back together. Well, in this particular case, I thank you for giving the courage to say, it's time to jump ship.
00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:52.269 Ivan: And… and I remember it was like.
00:35:52.620 --> 00:35:59.249 Ivan: That's the opposite way, that's the wrong way around. But that was absolutely the right decision.
00:35:59.640 --> 00:36:05.440 Ivan: You know? It turns out, at the end, I actually didn't have to jump ship, because she…
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:06.280 Jacinta Yang: Things happen.
00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:16.749 Ivan: You just blew the ship up for me. So that made the decision easier, because jumping ships still would make it feel as if I'm the one that quit.
00:36:16.950 --> 00:36:17.780 Jacinta Yang: Yes.
00:36:17.780 --> 00:36:32.259 Ivan: And if I think back, it would probably get there anyway. I would be the one that was going to quit, but it may have taken even longer, which really meant that the suffering would be longer. So there's a point at which, you know.
00:36:32.350 --> 00:36:49.169 Ivan: how do you kill a chicken? You know, you take it by the neck and just absolutely wrench it, because if you bend it slowly, bend it slowly, well, the squawking's not going to make it any easier, and the chicken probably wouldn't die quickly. So… so in this particular case, the ship was blown out the water.
00:36:49.170 --> 00:36:50.130 Jacinta Yang: Perfect.
00:36:50.130 --> 00:36:59.320 Ivan: So, I got the escape clause, and I kind of got out of there guilt-free, because I didn't pull the trigger.
00:37:00.340 --> 00:37:01.770 Ivan: But in looking back.
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:09.220 Ivan: it was inevitable. If the… if she didn't pull the trigger, I would have to for my own sanity.
00:37:10.810 --> 00:37:18.810 Jacinta Yang: Actually, I have to say that as difficult as it was, when she… Blew things up.
00:37:19.220 --> 00:37:24.109 Jacinta Yang: That, I guess, affected a lot of… Those around you.
00:37:24.570 --> 00:37:29.509 Jacinta Yang: And, it helped you, even though, at first, I still think you were…
00:37:30.030 --> 00:37:33.059 Jacinta Yang: Thinking that you want to try to make it work.
00:37:33.600 --> 00:37:42.099 Jacinta Yang: But, I've watched you, I've counseled you, and I… I know you have tried everything you could.
00:37:42.500 --> 00:37:47.010 Jacinta Yang: to make it work, and that was a time when I said, okay, you know what?
00:37:47.620 --> 00:37:52.300 Jacinta Yang: You can't change the other person, but you can change your own situation.
00:37:52.540 --> 00:37:57.639 Jacinta Yang: And that's what, I had to tell you, not that I wanted.
00:37:57.950 --> 00:38:01.070 Ivan: I think that I would never have come to that stage.
00:38:04.010 --> 00:38:08.440 Ivan: Because I couldn't see that there was a way out.
00:38:08.900 --> 00:38:11.610 Ivan: I almost felt as if I'd made my own bed.
00:38:11.780 --> 00:38:13.990 Ivan: So, then is my bid, I'm gonna stay there.
00:38:13.990 --> 00:38:14.920 Jacinta Yang: You're gonna line it.
00:38:14.920 --> 00:38:20.969 Ivan: So, yeah, so I really needed… I really needed a kick to… to get out of there. And… and I…
00:38:21.680 --> 00:38:29.290 Ivan: I don't know how other people feel, but I think that a lot of us would be similar. Of course, you always hear about people who just…
00:38:29.620 --> 00:38:38.780 Ivan: You know, who just walk out. Yes. But, you know, I… you've got to consider also that, I wasn't exactly 25.
00:38:39.060 --> 00:38:44.509 Ivan: I was 25 years old, maybe, I'd say, well, then okay, let's walk out of here, you know? So…
00:38:44.630 --> 00:38:47.060 Ivan: So, being a fairly, sort of, like, a…
00:38:48.200 --> 00:38:56.630 Ivan: Older person, it wasn't something that we just wanted to walk out on, because the next question is, what else is ahead out there, you know?
00:38:56.630 --> 00:39:08.790 Ivan: could there be just as rough seas? So, there's too many uncertainties, and I'd already retired by then, so I didn't feel like I wanted to restart
00:39:09.550 --> 00:39:22.090 Ivan: But there's just that… there's the fear of the unknown, and… and with support, if someone can just be there and say, don't fear, there's a huge world of opportunities out there, and…
00:39:22.160 --> 00:39:31.379 Ivan: if I could have seen that at the time, maybe it would have been easier to walk out. But in any event, it was just… there was just so much…
00:39:31.530 --> 00:39:38.800 Ivan: fear, and there was so much stress that I couldn't see very far ahead.
00:39:38.910 --> 00:39:45.059 Ivan: So, yes, did I need someone to help me shine a light? Yes.
00:39:46.210 --> 00:39:50.000 Ivan: And that's… that was, I suppose I'm gonna say that was your job.
00:39:50.310 --> 00:39:54.399 Jacinta Yang: I guess I did my job well.
00:39:54.580 --> 00:40:02.900 Jacinta Yang: Okay, so anyway, in your case, I have to say you got a little lucky, because the ship was blown right under… under our faces, but…
00:40:02.900 --> 00:40:06.350 Ivan: And it came so unexpectedly, yes, because I…
00:40:06.350 --> 00:40:13.769 Jacinta Yang: For those who don't have this opportunity, what would you tell them how to deal with it or get out of it?
00:40:14.070 --> 00:40:18.960 Ivan: Oh, everything is 20-20 with hindsight.
00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:19.790 Jacinta Yang: Okay.
00:40:19.790 --> 00:40:22.319 Ivan: So, I would have to say.
00:40:23.030 --> 00:40:32.929 Ivan: just get an understanding of where the level of abuse is. Is this reasonable, or is just this your imagination?
00:40:33.120 --> 00:40:41.920 Ivan: Or is it real? Once we've passed that stage, assuming that it's real, There is only one solution.
00:40:42.240 --> 00:40:43.709 Ivan: You're gonna get out of there.
00:40:44.450 --> 00:40:51.959 Jacinta Yang: I guess the only way to know whether it's our imagination or it's not our imagination is actually by talking to someone outside.
00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:52.570 Ivan: Correct.
00:40:52.570 --> 00:40:53.070 Jacinta Yang: Bill.
00:40:53.070 --> 00:40:53.970 Ivan: Correct.
00:40:53.970 --> 00:41:13.500 Jacinta Yang: And actually, what I'd like to share, with our audience, so beautiful ending story to your story. So, I just want to let our listeners know that in spite of having gone through what you went through, you are now in a beautiful place.
00:41:13.670 --> 00:41:15.260 Jacinta Yang: So please share that.
00:41:17.120 --> 00:41:20.850 Ivan: Oh, yeah, so… so the beautiful place is, is that…
00:41:21.020 --> 00:41:27.259 Ivan: Once I got through all of this and settled down, Then my eyes are opened.
00:41:28.110 --> 00:41:30.520 Ivan: Then new possibilities arise.
00:41:30.890 --> 00:41:32.549 Ivan: I meet new people.
00:41:33.520 --> 00:41:37.630 Ivan: And with what I've learned, I see things so much more differently.
00:41:38.110 --> 00:41:41.209 Ivan: And so now I'm in a new relationship, it's just…
00:41:42.090 --> 00:41:52.040 Ivan: fabulous, is all I can say. And having navigated this very difficult course before,
00:41:52.630 --> 00:42:07.289 Ivan: It helps me see things differently. Now, I don't wish anybody has gone through this before, but I will say that there really is light at the end of the tunnel, and an experience like this, it's like everything else. It makes a person grow.
00:42:07.700 --> 00:42:08.470 Jacinta Yang: Yes.
00:42:08.600 --> 00:42:15.629 Jacinta Yang: And I have to say, it's been such a pleasure to actually see a beautiful
00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:34.250 Jacinta Yang: light at the end of your tunnel, and and thank you for inviting me to your wedding, and she's amazing. You've made a really beautiful, wonderful woman that you so deserve.
00:42:34.350 --> 00:42:40.659 Jacinta Yang: And, I just want the listeners to know there is… there is light in the tunnel.
00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:48.219 Jacinta Yang: And there is a possibility, it doesn't matter your age, and Ivan, you were, what, 60 when this happened?
00:42:48.530 --> 00:42:52.179 Ivan: Yes, I was 60 when this happened, yeah, and this is 5 years ago.
00:42:52.180 --> 00:42:57.030 Jacinta Yang: And then now you're in a happy relationship and, enjoying life!
00:42:57.470 --> 00:43:00.810 Jacinta Yang: So it was well worth leaving that.
00:43:02.670 --> 00:43:07.919 Ivan: Oh, totally! So, so it's, it's… now home is a place of safety, you know?
00:43:08.740 --> 00:43:13.259 Ivan: So, and that's the big thing, you know, before home wasn't a place of safety.
00:43:13.260 --> 00:43:18.860 Jacinta Yang: Yes, yes. So, what would you like to say a takeaway for our listeners, please?
00:43:21.510 --> 00:43:24.730 Ivan: A takeaway is to be able to find the support.
00:43:25.390 --> 00:43:28.130 Ivan: Somebody, just to help you understand.
00:43:28.840 --> 00:43:34.500 Ivan: And looking back now, we all need to find an understanding of where this
00:43:35.520 --> 00:43:38.110 Ivan: Line of abuse shows up.
00:43:38.450 --> 00:43:45.689 Ivan: And we really need to know whether it's in our own minds, or whether there's something that is…
00:43:48.190 --> 00:44:05.500 Ivan: intolerable, like Jacinta did say, that if the other side cannot be changed, then there's no particular point in moving forward, because it's going to be a lifelong ball and chain, and that's… that's not where we're destined for. We're really not destined to be.
00:44:05.930 --> 00:44:14.430 Ivan: in hell before we get the chance to earn it, you know? So… So the conversation here is.
00:44:14.850 --> 00:44:16.799 Ivan: We need to find some help.
00:44:18.500 --> 00:44:25.060 Ivan: And that help has to be in the form of someone listening to help us find this line.
00:44:25.900 --> 00:44:34.910 Ivan: You know, and it's not a line that we draw, it has to be a line that someone shows us, because we will never recognize that line.
00:44:37.040 --> 00:44:50.669 Jacinta Yang: I'd like to thank our listeners for joining today, and thank you, Ivan, for sharing your story. I recall asking you that someday I'd like you to share your story to help other people, just as I've been sharing my story to help others.
00:44:50.930 --> 00:45:00.419 Jacinta Yang: And I am so glad and happy that you are now in a very happy place. It really brings me joy to see
00:45:00.560 --> 00:45:05.540 Jacinta Yang: You know, a beautiful… Relationship that you have now.
00:45:05.720 --> 00:45:08.940 Jacinta Yang: Thank you, and until next time!
00:45:11.060 --> 00:45:11.940 Jacinta Yang: Bye.
00:45:19.150 --> 00:45:19.910 Jacinta Yang: Oh.
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:22.510 Jacinta Yang: Boop.
00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:37.310 Jacinta Yang: Oops.
00:47:25.020 --> 00:47:33.579 Jacinta Yang: Welcome back. We still have a little bit more time, Ivan. Thank you for joining, joining us today.
00:47:33.730 --> 00:47:38.889 Jacinta Yang: And, you mentioned when you were out and talking with guys.
00:47:39.170 --> 00:47:49.620 Jacinta Yang: And oftentimes you would say, oh, no, I went through this, and you guys would just, I guess, numerously say, oh, I'm going through that.
00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:55.829 Jacinta Yang: Now, having gone through what you went through, And when you hear that.
00:47:56.340 --> 00:48:13.240 Jacinta Yang: would you take that as a joke, or would you at least consider listening in to their story, and perhaps maybe be a guide for them? Because you've gone through it, you know some of the signs to recognize?
00:48:15.660 --> 00:48:26.399 Ivan: You know, even until today, I wouldn't necessarily poke my nose into someone else's business, because I wouldn't know the level of,
00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:31.079 Ivan: At least call it imagined abuse or real abuse.
00:48:31.430 --> 00:48:36.569 Ivan: And even till today, I would never approach someone unless I really knew them very well.
00:48:36.570 --> 00:48:37.460 Jacinta Yang: Stop.
00:48:37.460 --> 00:48:48.709 Ivan: It wouldn't be something I would do casually, so I wouldn't, for example, be casually talking to someone on the golf course and decide that, oh, this is a case I could help somebody.
00:48:49.250 --> 00:48:56.110 Ivan: But if… if it was someone I knew well, yes, I'd definitely step in and say, you need some help.
00:48:56.600 --> 00:49:03.040 Ivan: And so… so would I help somebody? Yes, if I knew them well. Because really, at…
00:49:03.400 --> 00:49:05.749 Ivan: At a very superficial level.
00:49:06.560 --> 00:49:13.030 Ivan: it's… it's a… it's a joke with most guys talking. It's, it's kind of like,
00:49:14.520 --> 00:49:26.660 Ivan: even I just heard this the other day, someone was saying his dog was barking, and his wife got mad and said, you know, it's your fault. And he goes, why is it my fault if the dog is barking? Well, the wife would say, well, you should have trained the dog.
00:49:26.660 --> 00:49:31.289 Jacinta Yang: Now, this would be something that it feels like everybody goes through.
00:49:31.290 --> 00:49:34.420 Ivan: Oh, At least that's what I imagine.
00:49:34.620 --> 00:49:40.669 Jacinta Yang: Now, at what point is that abuse, or at what point is that just someone being a little bit…
00:49:41.140 --> 00:49:55.720 Ivan: having an off day, or perhaps it's just a comment. There's just no way to gauge. But if, for example, I was really seeing my best friend having to go through what I went through, I would definitely step in there and say, get the hell out of there.
00:49:55.870 --> 00:50:01.279 Jacinta Yang: But that's… you're saying you feel more comfortable, but then, you know, maybe sometimes
00:50:01.420 --> 00:50:13.420 Jacinta Yang: A stranger might feel comfortable talking to a stranger because they don't know you, which is, you know, maybe in a jokingly, but is there… do you think there's a possibility that you can
00:50:13.420 --> 00:50:24.010 Jacinta Yang: Try to gauge whether that was a joke, or it was somebody just trying to share something because he needed to share something.
00:50:24.010 --> 00:50:37.500 Ivan: Yes, if someone needed to hear… so it has happened before, and it was a friend who… and so, you know, for most of us, it's whether our listening ears are actually tuned in properly. You know, are we really listening for…
00:50:37.560 --> 00:50:44.239 Ivan: A cry for help, or we're just listening to someone who just happens to want to let off some steam.
00:50:44.930 --> 00:50:58.550 Ivan: So, you know, we don't always have our antennas pulled out and listening carefully, which is probably half the fault of just us living our own lives. Are we really present to what people are asking?
00:50:58.840 --> 00:51:07.659 Ivan: But if you're asking if we… if we recognize someone who is asking for help, would I help? Of course. Because this…
00:51:07.660 --> 00:51:17.039 Jacinta Yang: this type of stuff is really… it's… it's too difficult. It's real, and it's too difficult. So, would I help someone if I heard the cry?
00:51:17.090 --> 00:51:19.050 Ivan: Absolutely.
00:51:19.390 --> 00:51:24.499 Ivan: Now, the question remains, though, Do they want to be helped?
00:51:26.260 --> 00:51:45.069 Ivan: Now, that one is really up to them, so… so, do I happen to know someone who released the cry of help? Yes, and I said, I'm here if you need, you know, let me know. And then the answer was something like, I'll speak to you when I need to. And then, well, you know, I'm not going to pull his teeth out for that.
00:51:45.070 --> 00:51:45.810 Jacinta Yang: Yeah.
00:51:45.810 --> 00:51:46.140 Ivan: Yeah.
00:51:46.140 --> 00:51:53.020 Jacinta Yang: See, let's just say, for instance, somebody was joking with you. As you say, men like to joke that they are going through that, right?
00:51:53.660 --> 00:52:10.770 Jacinta Yang: to just kind of get it out, but at the same time, there's a little bit seriousness to that. So is it possible that you can sort of say, yeah, you know what? All joking aside, if you ever need to talk to someone, I'm here. Do you think it's something that you can do?
00:52:10.920 --> 00:52:34.630 Ivan: Oh, yes, I could easily do that. And, you know, somebody did that to me, even though it was after the blow-up. Someone came to talk to me and said, what's your story? And, at that time, of course, you know, in all the smoke and in all the trouble that was going on, I opened up to him, and he just looked at me, he says, I went through the same thing, I think you're going to be okay.
00:52:35.250 --> 00:52:41.569 Ivan: Just the ability for someone to look at me and say, I get it, really made me feel a lot better.
00:52:41.870 --> 00:52:43.190 Jacinta Yang: But he was not your friend.
00:52:44.180 --> 00:52:46.789 Ivan: Yeah, he, he, it was just somebody I knew.
00:52:47.250 --> 00:52:50.849 Jacinta Yang: Yeah, but not a friend. Like you said, if it was a close friend, you'd see it, right?
00:52:50.850 --> 00:52:56.410 Ivan: That's right, it wasn't even a close friend, and I had no idea that he had gone through a similar thing.
00:52:56.790 --> 00:53:02.609 Jacinta Yang: But just the fact that he's someone that you just happen to know, not a good friend, just…
00:53:02.930 --> 00:53:03.469 Ivan: Yeah, and he…
00:53:03.470 --> 00:53:05.120 Jacinta Yang: about your story, maybe it's something.
00:53:05.120 --> 00:53:28.100 Ivan: Well, because he had heard from someone else, you know, and he only knew a little bit, and he absolutely just pulled me aside and said, what's your story? And when I told him, he kind of said, I went through the same thing, and he kind of listed, this happened to me, this happened to me, this happened… and then all of a sudden, you realize that your story, at least in my case, my story, it wasn't… it wasn't the one and only.
00:53:28.420 --> 00:53:41.480 Ivan: Once we get that we are not the one most unique thing in the world, and that this happens to so many others, then it's kind of… the stigma falls away.
00:53:42.660 --> 00:53:52.649 Ivan: Then it's… then it's easier to say, go and get help, go talk to someone, you're not the only one. It's happened to A, B, C, D, and E, and then it's like, okay.
00:53:52.890 --> 00:53:55.809 Jacinta Yang: But that… even just that one little bit.
00:53:56.080 --> 00:53:58.360 Jacinta Yang: Helped you to know that you're not the one.
00:53:58.360 --> 00:54:08.879 Ivan: A huge difference, a huge difference, especially when someone says, you know, my story was fairly similar, and this happened, and they'll go, oh yeah, actually, it happened to me too, I just forgot to tell you about that part, you know?
00:54:08.950 --> 00:54:23.379 Jacinta Yang: So, I guess my request to you is that when you're out and about playing your golf or playing your tennis, and, you know, you hear this, even though in a joking way, and,
00:54:23.560 --> 00:54:23.950 Ivan: Oh, yeah.
00:54:23.950 --> 00:54:29.009 Jacinta Yang: possible to have your antennas up a little bit? Maybe your story can help a lot.
00:54:29.010 --> 00:54:48.559 Ivan: I'll say that my antennas are up, because when it comes to something like this, it's… it's always up. The question was, if I'd never been through something like this, and then… then you dent to it, you know? Once you've been through it, you'll see this. So, for me, I actually see it very easily now, because it's like…
00:54:48.560 --> 00:54:49.620 Jacinta Yang: You can see the signs.
00:54:49.620 --> 00:54:55.789 Ivan: Oh, absolutely. Once you've been through it, it's kind of like you've watched this movie before.
00:54:57.090 --> 00:55:08.239 Jacinta Yang: I'm so glad that you entered us up, because I know a lot of men can really benefit from a little bit of encouragement, or a little word of support.
00:55:08.450 --> 00:55:14.639 Jacinta Yang: From you. And then… and especially with your beautiful… Ending story.
00:55:14.990 --> 00:55:15.979 Jacinta Yang: That's… that's…
00:55:15.980 --> 00:55:16.520 Ivan: job.
00:55:16.520 --> 00:55:19.740 Jacinta Yang: That's very encouraging for a lot of people, I have to say.
00:55:20.110 --> 00:55:21.909 Jacinta Yang: Both women and women.
00:55:21.910 --> 00:55:26.319 Ivan: I think so, yeah, it doesn't… it doesn't end worse.
00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:26.840 Jacinta Yang: Yes.
00:55:26.840 --> 00:55:27.760 Ivan: doesn't input.
00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:28.830 Jacinta Yang: It can only get better.
00:55:28.830 --> 00:55:30.409 Ivan: It can only get better.
00:55:30.410 --> 00:55:31.940 Jacinta Yang: It just got really beautiful.
00:55:31.940 --> 00:55:37.480 Ivan: That's right. When… when you've… when you are rock bottom, there's only… there's… the only place to look is up.
00:55:38.010 --> 00:55:39.030 Jacinta Yang: Yes, yes.
00:55:40.340 --> 00:55:58.850 Jacinta Yang: And I want to, once again, thank you for your time, and thank you for sharing your story with our listeners, and hopefully it will encourage some men, or even women that are going through a similar story, struggling with their relationship to…
00:55:58.970 --> 00:56:04.409 Jacinta Yang: take… The step, take the courage, and move forward, and live up.
00:56:04.410 --> 00:56:10.160 Ivan: I'd have to agree. I think a lot of women also put up with this. They need to find out where that line is.
00:56:10.160 --> 00:56:10.860 Jacinta Yang: Please.
00:56:11.780 --> 00:56:14.190 Jacinta Yang: Well, I'm… I'm one of the survivors, like.
00:56:14.190 --> 00:56:18.550 Ivan: Yes, and so you have the antenna, and you know where the line is, you see, sir.
00:56:18.550 --> 00:56:23.820 Jacinta Yang: Well, I had the antenna with you, but I had to wait till… No, yeah, yeah.
00:56:24.250 --> 00:56:25.799 Jacinta Yang: I had to wait till I was ready.
00:56:26.300 --> 00:56:31.289 Jacinta Yang: Yes, exhaust all possible, trials, right?
00:56:31.290 --> 00:56:36.700 Ivan: Yeah. Okay, thank you once again, and I am so looking forward to.
00:56:36.700 --> 00:56:41.369 Jacinta Yang: Seeing you all next time. Until next time, thank you for tuning in.
00:56:41.560 --> 00:56:42.500 Jacinta Yang: Bye!
00:56:42.500 --> 00:56:43.310 Ivan: Bye.
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