Sales Managers and GTM roles will benefit from:
✅ Applying practical, actical strategies for better inspection and collaboration.
✅ Moving beyond individual metrics to shared team outcomes.
✅ Implementing safe learning environments, peer communities, and simple, measurable behaviors.
All this and more so you can deliver quick enablement wins and long-term momentum.
This episode is packed with insights from Brain Conway you don’t want to miss:
🔹 The Sales Manager Crisis – why so many teams are missing quota & how poor management hurts collaboration.
🔹 The Player-Manager Dilemma – impact on sales + presales, and smarter alternatives.
🔹 Inspection & Collaboration – with real-world tactics.
Brian brings his experience, practical tools, and fresh ideas to help sales and presales leaders build stronger, more collaborative teams.
👉 Mark your calendar, set a reminder, and join us for this powerful conversation!
Brian Conway LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/brianconway001/
Complimentary access to the Sales Manager Inner Circle: www.skool.com/sales-manager-inner-circle-1515/about?ref=ccd7eadbfee248dcb55127915ae2dd7b
Tune in for this informative conversation at TalkRadio.nyc or watch the .
In this episode of Making SEAMless Sales, Art Fromm reflects on his decades of sales and enablement experience, connecting past shifts in technology to today’s AI-driven future. He recaps last week’s discussion with Anil from CloudFronts about Microsoft, Databricks, and the rise of Agentic AI, which is transforming CRM use from static data entry into proactive sales support. Art then sets the stage for upcoming conversations on how accurate, defendable data and effective sales management practices can reduce turnover, boost morale, and make CRM systems genuinely useful for both salespeople and leadership.
In this segment, Art Fromm welcomes guest Brian Conway, an experienced sales leader, author, and coach who has worked with global tech companies like Google, Dell, Adobe, and Microsoft. Brian highlights the troubling decline in sales quota attainment—now at record lows across industries—and emphasizes that while sales reps face challenges, the responsibility for improvement rests heavily with sales managers. He warns against the pitfalls of the “player-manager” role, explaining that when managers focus on closing their own deals instead of coaching and supporting their teams, morale drops, turnover rises, and performance spirals downward—making effective management training and coaching essential for sustainable sales success.
In this segment, Brian Conway explains how small, consistent management actions can create big performance shifts—emphasizing his twist on the old saying: “people respect what you inspect.” He shares how focusing on specific behaviors, like probing prospects on the “cost of doing nothing,” can quickly strengthen sales skills and outcomes when reinforced over time. Brian also introduces his Rep Rescue Playbook—a tactical framework to repair, rebuild, and reinforce struggling reps—and his Sales Manager Inner Circle, a safe community where managers can share best practices, gain support, and build high-performing teams.
In the closing segment, Art Fromm introduces his Dear Artie feature, where he addresses real sales challenges submitted by listeners. He responds to a pre-sales manager struggling with friction between account managers and sales engineers, emphasizing the importance of cross-manager collaboration, direct communication between team members, and shared goals around client success. Art ties these points back to negotiation, influence, and trust-building, reminding listeners that seamless sales depend on aligning pre-sales and sales efforts, and invites them to explore more resources, his book Making Seamless Sales, and next week’s discussion on CRMs with Chris Smith.
00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:49.740 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Welcome, everybody. Welcome to the sixth episode of Making Seamless Sales Show. I'm Art Fromm, based in Morris, Pennsylvania.
00:00:50.040 --> 00:01:03.480 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Founder and president of Team Sales Development, and sharing ideas on this show based on my sales and sales enablement career. As I think about it, it actually has spanned quite a bit of history.
00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:23.429 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: From mainframe days, to distributed computing, to virtual desktops, to cloud, and now to AI, and most of my experience has been in the area of enterprise, systems, enterprise information management, and all things related to, say, IT, telecommunications, software, and
00:01:23.450 --> 00:01:35.539 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: all that, and I also support supply chain customers as well right now. So, if you would, please make sure that you like, share, subscribe, check out TeamSalesDevelopment.com.
00:01:35.670 --> 00:01:41.490 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: With the event page for information about this show and the other shows that we have on.
00:01:41.560 --> 00:01:50.289 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We'll get to our guest here in a little bit. Just a quick note about last week's show on September 4th, which was episode 5.
00:01:50.350 --> 00:02:04.760 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: and Anil. So, Anil was on, he's the CEO of CloudFronts, and we had a really great discussion about, what he does in terms of being a Microsoft and now Databricks partner.
00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:18.400 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, he's not only doing the Microsoft implementation for CRM systems and all kinds of Microsoft Cloud solutions, but he's also doing Databricks, which is very aligned with his strategy to focus on AI.
00:02:18.520 --> 00:02:23.830 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: With the idea being that AI requires good data.
00:02:23.900 --> 00:02:38.229 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Kind of reminds me of back in the day when we did relational databases, going from manual stuff to relational databases and having to clean up the data so that the AI doesn't over- hallucinate. We know it already hallucinates enough.
00:02:38.270 --> 00:02:53.369 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: But, the fact is that now that he's doing Databricks as well, he's got the data cleansing and all that under what he does. He also is doing, and the big emphasis now that we talked about was Agentic AI.
00:02:53.530 --> 00:03:08.319 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, the idea there is that, you know, AI is one thing when we use it for ChatGPT and stuff like that. Agentic AI is where you have the AI as your personal agent. And whether it's helping you to sell and get messages out, whether it's…
00:03:08.320 --> 00:03:13.550 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Helping you with your own personal guide and what you're doing. In the sales world.
00:03:13.650 --> 00:03:26.849 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: It's about helping you maybe with your methodology to see if you're doing that properly, or just digging into data. You know, when's the last time that I talked with this person about this, and what were the conclusions, and so forth.
00:03:26.850 --> 00:03:34.100 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And that, agentic AI can help. So, Microsoft, of course, has, Copilot that they
00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:42.710 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you know, have as part of their system, and Anil helps with that. And then it reminded me, which we didn't get a chance to talk about on the show, but…
00:03:43.020 --> 00:03:53.459 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: One thing about my Sales Opportunity Snapshot solution that some of you know about is the snapshot itself, which is 9 key criteria.
00:03:53.620 --> 00:04:10.779 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: with 9 really important pieces of information that are gathered from hello all the way through implementation and renewals, that gets, recorded every time there's a change in the sales process. So, in the sales stages.
00:04:10.780 --> 00:04:28.959 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: When an opportunity moves through sales stages, that information gets saved, so Agentic AI would be a great candidate to ask your CRM system, you know, when a deal got stuck, what did it look like, what happened, or when the deal moves quicker through the process
00:04:29.090 --> 00:04:39.720 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: what does that look like as far as why that's happening? So, check that out. That was, last… last week, again, on September 4th, episode 5. And then,
00:04:40.390 --> 00:04:46.290 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Next, next week, this coming week, Episode…
00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:49.329 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: 7 is gonna be with Chris Smith.
00:04:49.540 --> 00:05:04.699 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Chris Smith is somebody who helps companies with CRM systems, and specifically, he has a book which sits on my bookshelf right here, and I'll get it out for the show next week, which is CRMs Shouldn't Suck.
00:05:04.780 --> 00:05:21.419 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And the idea is that he's engaged by companies that have what appear to be problems with their CRM, and then, of course, as he digs deeper, he often finds out that it's not just the CRM system, it's the people, the process, the tools, things like that. So this is where
00:05:21.420 --> 00:05:32.909 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We can run into, opportunities to improve, business process improvement, or sales methodology improvement, or tool improvement. We'll talk about that.
00:05:32.980 --> 00:05:38.579 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: You know, sales in general, anybody on here that's doing sales, and if you have a CRM system.
00:05:39.050 --> 00:05:46.180 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Even if you're not in sales, I know some people that aren't really in sales, but their company still has a CRM system to manage client data.
00:05:46.380 --> 00:05:54.849 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Sometimes you feel like that CRM system is just not helpful. And, for many salespeople, they feel like it doesn't help them sell.
00:05:55.230 --> 00:06:00.809 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And that's because a lot of times the data is being put in there for the purpose of helping management.
00:06:01.100 --> 00:06:16.730 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: What we want to do is see the way that we can have the CRM system be helpful for us. And today, my guest is going to talk about sales management, and so when we get into that, we'll talk a little bit about, not specifically the CRM,
00:06:16.730 --> 00:06:25.669 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: But what type of data should be looked at, and how is that going to help with the sales team? So, again, tying these all together.
00:06:25.760 --> 00:06:29.589 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Last week, Anil said when he saw
00:06:29.700 --> 00:06:39.120 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the system he developed, because he developed the app for me, for my sales methodology, he said it really is the missing link of CRM,
00:06:39.290 --> 00:06:47.870 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Because the methodology itself should help people sell, and then if the methodology is inside the CRM system.
00:06:47.950 --> 00:07:00.850 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: and the method is implemented in a tool that's helpful, now the salesperson is in the CRM, they're doing things that they like, they know that it's helping them sell. Management now has the ability to inspect it.
00:07:01.010 --> 00:07:19.990 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: real time, and it's accurate live data, and if it's a methodology like Sales Opportunity Snapshot, it's data that has to be defendable, so you can't put information in there unless you could, you know, swear by it, and that it's favorable to your company, and that it's something that you've confirmed
00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:37.879 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: basically, we call it flawless from a flawless source. What we're really meaning there is that we've triangulated from multiple people to confirm that what we're hearing is true, because I'm a salesperson, you know, in my current business of providing consultative selling. I was a salesperson.
00:07:37.880 --> 00:07:51.240 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Brian, when we get him on, he's gonna talk about that as well, right? We tend to be very positive and optimistic, and wear the rose-colored glasses, and feel like, oh yeah, everything's gonna be fine, you know, there's a 95% probability this is gonna close.
00:07:51.260 --> 00:08:01.329 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And the reality is that's not going to do anybody any good. So when the data is accurate, live, objective, defendable, and now it's in the CRM system.
00:08:01.430 --> 00:08:08.249 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: and now the CRM system can be used by management to help manage the pipeline. It's gonna be best for everybody.
00:08:08.310 --> 00:08:25.009 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So that's something to look forward to next week, and again, just sort of tying all these episodes together, as far as how they flow and the way that they work. Please go backwards and forwards, and definitely for today, what we're gonna do is dive into the management implications of this. So…
00:08:25.400 --> 00:08:31.400 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: What we're gonna talk a little bit about today is that the tendency
00:08:31.740 --> 00:08:42.890 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: is to promote top sellers. Now, that actually happened with me, because I was a SE manager, and I was an SE… in the SE role, in pre-sales.
00:08:42.900 --> 00:08:53.519 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And eventually, I got promoted to be a manager of SEs, because I was one of the, you know, top performers. So the idea was, is that I must be able to help manage people.
00:08:53.640 --> 00:08:56.859 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And of course, there's some challenges with that.
00:08:57.090 --> 00:09:12.700 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The challenges include the ability for managers to really manage, not just know what they're doing, and the problem is, we tend to dive back into maybe help… helping mode, helping out the team, or instead of equipping them, it's the classic
00:09:12.730 --> 00:09:24.529 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you know, teach somebody to fish, and they can fish for life, or whatever, or fish for them, and now they're gonna be dependent on you. So, it's those types of things, but it really boils down to effectiveness, efficiency.
00:09:24.640 --> 00:09:32.070 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Other things like that. I know in my case, one thing that I experienced, mainly in my SE roles, was
00:09:32.230 --> 00:09:42.119 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: My sales counterparts were very often being cycled in and out, whereas I was sort of a continuum as an SE or pre-sales. Pre-sales tends to be…
00:09:42.170 --> 00:09:52.479 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: more consistent and less turnover. In the sales ranks, especially back in the day, I don't see this as much now, but we'll talk about it when Brian comes on in a little bit.
00:09:52.790 --> 00:09:58.229 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Is that in sales roles, it seems like if the salesperson doesn't perform, well then.
00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:00.670 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: guess what? They're gonna be cycled out.
00:10:00.940 --> 00:10:03.679 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And I know for my one long-time customer.
00:10:03.930 --> 00:10:09.100 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: At the beginning, we would cycle out, you know, maybe 10%.
00:10:09.210 --> 00:10:11.490 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Of the salespeople each year.
00:10:11.540 --> 00:10:25.210 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And probably maybe even more than that, maybe 15, they would cycle out, and there'd be a bunch of people removed from the roster of the program they're going through, and then new people coming on. And what I've noticed over the years is that
00:10:25.220 --> 00:10:37.530 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: number has gone down dramatically. So, at least in the case of this one long-time client that I have, they've figured out ways to have their sales management do things that make people stay.
00:10:37.640 --> 00:10:40.219 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Because I think you've all heard before that…
00:10:40.560 --> 00:10:48.920 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Unfortunately, all too often, we wind up with not necessarily, you know, people don't quit their job, they quit their manager.
00:10:49.140 --> 00:10:56.400 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And you all, if you think about it, even if you're not in a sales role, you've probably thought of that before, you know, there was that manager that just didn't…
00:10:56.600 --> 00:11:03.149 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: cut it for you, wasn't working out, and so you were able to move on, because
00:11:03.260 --> 00:11:08.770 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you felt like it wasn't working. So morale could be affected, and… and all kinds of different things.
00:11:09.100 --> 00:11:17.989 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So those are some things to think about, maybe, as we get ready to go to the break. Think about ways that you have experienced that.
00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:22.919 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And then when we talk with Brian, we'll be able to dig into that further.
00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:29.199 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, please, again, check out TeamSalesDevelopment.com.
00:11:29.390 --> 00:11:30.700 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: for the…
00:11:31.070 --> 00:11:44.509 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: information about this show and other shows, look under the Events tab. You can also check out, of course, the book tab, and look up the book, which is the namesake for this show, Making Seamless Sales.
00:11:44.510 --> 00:11:57.059 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And, once again, for those of you that don't know already, the SE and the AM is capitalized because it is about pre-sales and sales working together better. So the SE and the AM
00:11:57.060 --> 00:12:04.929 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Working seamlessly, and that's… that's what we cover, and there's tons of resources on the website that you can use to find out more about that.
00:12:05.150 --> 00:12:13.160 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, as we're coming up on the break here, Let's go ahead and,
00:12:13.270 --> 00:12:20.679 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Get ready to have Brian join us as you think about things you're going through. Okay, there's… there's my… there's my prompt for the break.
00:12:20.700 --> 00:12:39.020 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Alright, so one of the things that I want to point out about making seamless sales is this book in particular, and for those of you that can see the video, and by the way, everybody, if you access the website, you can find all the different ways that this is being streamed and also recorded. But one of the things I want to point out about this book is…
00:12:39.020 --> 00:12:55.090 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: It is really designed for individual contributors to understand the other person. So, for pre-sales to understand sales better, for sales to understand pre-sales better, and as a result, this book is really a workbook
00:12:55.200 --> 00:13:04.060 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: that helps at that opportunity and account level for them to work together better. There's a free worksheet
00:13:04.060 --> 00:13:16.329 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: available on my website, on the book page, that allow you to work through real sales opportunities together with your counterpart. Now, that's not to say this isn't for management, and Brian will be coming on
00:13:16.330 --> 00:13:25.219 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: After a break we're going to take very shortly here. But this is for sales management, this is gonna help them with what you can help your team with.
00:13:25.310 --> 00:13:40.450 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: This isn't necessarily the sales manager's guide to that. That's something that I'll, you know, be working on later, but people like… folks like Brian, my guest, are the ones that are helping with that. So, with that in mind, and
00:13:40.900 --> 00:13:45.590 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Looking forward to talking with Brian in a minute. Let's go ahead and go to the break, we'll see you back.
00:13:46.250 --> 00:13:51.679 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: As we dive into sales management and the importance of that for the team.
00:13:52.130 --> 00:13:53.720 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: See you back in about 2 minutes.
00:16:06.370 --> 00:16:13.830 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Alright, everybody, welcome back from the commercial break, and I would like to welcome my guest, Brian Conway.
00:16:14.270 --> 00:16:15.579 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Hello, O'Brien.
00:16:16.390 --> 00:16:18.299 Brian Conway: Hi, Art, it's nice to see you again.
00:16:18.300 --> 00:16:32.240 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Likewise, likewise. So Brian is actually located in the UK, and, because it's, about 4 hours difference there, we're pre-recording this, but that's okay, you can still participate.
00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:38.529 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: on the various streams, and we'll take a look at your comments later. Very quickly, to introduce Brian.
00:16:38.530 --> 00:16:53.180 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Brian's got 30 years of experience in sales, is a published author, sought-after speaker, trainer, business coach, helps companies create high-performing sales teams with a special focus, although not exclusively.
00:16:53.180 --> 00:17:10.469 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Mainly on the high-tech sector. Brian's been in global training and coaching roles, working with free sales and sales teams in the largest tech companies in the world, brands like Google, HPE, Lenovo, Dell, Adobe, TikTok, the name… the list goes on, Microsoft and others.
00:17:10.609 --> 00:17:24.969 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: From his personal experience and having been a successful salesperson and sales manager, Brian has developed proven systems to quickly turn around struggling teams and individual contributors, often seeing dramatic improvements in as little as 6 weeks.
00:17:24.970 --> 00:17:34.100 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: His new rep rescue playbook system is becoming the go-to program to improve quota attainment for sales management.
00:17:34.100 --> 00:17:51.069 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: for sales managers when reps are struggling and the numbers aren't where they want them to be. I've worked beside Brian as a fellow facilitator for Mastering Technical Sales and Innovice ESM, so please, again, welcome my friend and colleague, Brian Conway.
00:17:51.070 --> 00:17:54.829 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So good to have you here on the show.
00:17:54.830 --> 00:17:55.270 Brian Conway: Oh, God.
00:17:55.270 --> 00:18:04.530 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And I thought just to get started, Brian, maybe you could briefly help us out with where, where, you know, how you got to where you are and the current focus.
00:18:05.750 --> 00:18:14.159 Brian Conway: So, like you, listening to your introduction earlier, you know, I've been in the industry a long time, when it was telecoms, before it was even what it is today with AI, etc.
00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:28.129 Brian Conway: And a lot of that career from an engineering background took me into pre-sales, which I did for a long time, as well as then, you know, field sales and sales management as well, in both sides of the, that relationship, the SE and the AN.
00:18:28.260 --> 00:18:43.489 Brian Conway: But for many years… well, I kind of discovered learning development. One of the companies I worked for had the opportunity to work in their learning development department for some time, and I just fell in love with personal development as much as I did sales, so it really was a blessing to be able to bring my passion for technology.
00:18:43.860 --> 00:18:47.930 Brian Conway: people development and selling together, and that's what I've done for many years now.
00:18:48.040 --> 00:18:56.480 Brian Conway: as you said, all over the world, some of the big tech companies mainly, because that's my background. But what I've seen over the last few years, and it's… it kind of…
00:18:56.590 --> 00:19:07.300 Brian Conway: really came to my attention early this year is that there has been this gradual decline in sales quota attainment across different sectors, not just technology. And…
00:19:07.750 --> 00:19:18.370 Brian Conway: this year, I was talking to a potential client, and we were talking about performance, and he said, I've got one person on my team who's never done any more than 60% of their sales quota, ever.
00:19:18.820 --> 00:19:28.510 Brian Conway: I said, really? Surely not. He said, yeah, and that's not uncommon. He said, in fact, it's not uncommon talking to other sales managers and some of the people he knew, and I thought, I can't be…
00:19:28.910 --> 00:19:38.799 Brian Conway: that can't be true, so I just ended up doing a lot of research the early part of this year, and it does seem to be true. As I said, there's a lot of surveys now done by, you know, big companies that are
00:19:39.600 --> 00:19:42.200 Brian Conway: You know, empirically showing that there is this
00:19:42.390 --> 00:20:00.970 Brian Conway: very low level of quota attainment. So, as someone who's provided training to salespeople for many, many years, and now with so much information actually being at people's fingertips, there never has been more information readily available for
00:20:01.150 --> 00:20:10.040 Brian Conway: free, as we know, and even AI, you could turn to AI now, because you've mentioned that as well, and even say, look, please help me, teach me how to become a better salesperson.
00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:22.140 Brian Conway: why is sales at quota attainment at an all-time low? And I just feel a lot of the responsibility, not necessarily the fault, and I think this is an important differentiator here, but I think there's a lot of the responsibility of maybe bringing this back
00:20:22.540 --> 00:20:30.140 Brian Conway: Lies with the sales managers, because it ultimately is their job to manage that team of individuals and help them reach their potential.
00:20:30.370 --> 00:20:32.750 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Right. So, somehow I got to where I am.
00:20:33.250 --> 00:20:44.169 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, and that's so, so needed. And, you know, in the past, and I think, unfortunately, it's still true, and this is part of the, you know, this crisis that you're seeing that needs help.
00:20:44.340 --> 00:20:49.119 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The bottom, you know, 20% of the performance would just get fired.
00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:50.420 Brian Conway: Yeah.
00:20:50.420 --> 00:20:57.230 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: That, you know, the inconsistency with their customers, the…
00:20:57.260 --> 00:21:03.230 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: ramping back up of new resources and all that, it's a big deal. I had one client that…
00:21:03.230 --> 00:21:19.770 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Where I was the consistency being in the pre-sales role of the time, and they… I think I mentioned this on one of my earlier shows, but they literally had a plaque on the wall of all the salespeople that they had been through in, like, the 3 years prior to that, and they had the names of all the people, and they're like.
00:21:19.770 --> 00:21:38.840 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We hope you're not one of these. I go, no, no, no, I'm here, you know, I'm here for some consistency, but let's talk more about that, then, in terms of what is the impact of poor sales management, and then we'll get into, you know, some of the things that you wind up doing for them, but let's talk a little bit more about the lay of the land right now, why this.
00:21:38.840 --> 00:21:39.180 Brian Conway: Yeah.
00:21:39.180 --> 00:21:41.060 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Something that should be paid attention to.
00:21:42.010 --> 00:21:53.040 Brian Conway: Well, as you said there, you know, statistically, 20%, you know, the classic Pareto may be poor performing, and you could work them out of the business. And a bit of churn is healthy, there's no doubt about that.
00:21:54.200 --> 00:22:13.640 Brian Conway: But looking at a lot of the research, and these are companies like Inc. Magazine, and some of the big consultancy companies, and a lot of software companies like Salesforce and HubSpot, and companies like that, that actually have salespeople using their CRMs, you know, to actually manage performance, are seeing
00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:27.880 Brian Conway: levels of attainment as low as 20%. That means it's the other way around. 80% are now missing targets. You can't engineer 80% of your sales team out every year, so it's kind of becoming broken.
00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:46.229 Brian Conway: And there's a lot of reaction, I find, to those situations. I mean, replace somebody is one option, but that means very costly, both in time and money, and maybe time might even be the worst thing, because it could take nearly a year to ramp somebody up to performance.
00:22:46.380 --> 00:22:49.659 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And you've lost a whole year's worth of, you know, potential sales.
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:59.200 Brian Conway: The other thing I'm seeing is this player-manager role, which I'm really not a fan of. I know in certain circumstances, you know, perhaps it can work, so…
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:18.990 Brian Conway: for example, if you just scale that, you know, you're a startup, and as the business owner, you have been responsible for all the selling, and you're now trying to scale up and bring on a team, perhaps, then you're going to bring in one salesperson, then you've got to still be in that sales motion yourself, you know. So there is a time when that role, still exists.
00:23:18.990 --> 00:23:28.560 Brian Conway: But when you're building a team, you really do want to extract yourself out of that role as soon as you can. Or if you are a sales manager of a team, I really don't think
00:23:28.570 --> 00:23:35.200 Brian Conway: you should be in that player-manager role. It is a recipe for disaster, for numerous reasons.
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:42.619 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, yeah, because this is interesting, because it could be easy to say, well, it's the salesperson's fault for not achieving quota.
00:23:42.760 --> 00:23:53.659 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And, there's definitely some things when it comes to team collaboration and other things like that that can start to get in the way, which is why I'm focused on helping them work together better.
00:23:53.660 --> 00:23:55.769 Brian Conway: to allow that. However.
00:23:55.770 --> 00:24:03.479 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you know, first and foremost, it's the manager's responsibility to help them with attaining the quota, and what I hear you saying is that
00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:16.479 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: One of the things that might be getting in the way, maybe more than before, is the idea of the player manager. Again, I was promoted from SE to SE manager, and it was hard to…
00:24:16.620 --> 00:24:19.589 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Let the team fish for themselves, you know?
00:24:19.590 --> 00:24:20.750 Brian Conway: Your tenants…
00:24:20.750 --> 00:24:34.049 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: is to want to jump in, especially maybe in a pre-sales role, but in a sales role of any kind as a manager, jumping in. So, why do you think that that happens so much, and what's the implications of that?
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:43.730 Brian Conway: There's a couple of things. I mean, one, you make a really good point, that a lot of sales managers are promoted up from being highly successful salespeople, so…
00:24:44.050 --> 00:24:56.459 Brian Conway: And that in itself is a full-time job, so how you can then be a sales manager and a successful salesperson at the same time obviously creates a series of challenges. But the thing is, it's not a title, sales manager.
00:24:56.490 --> 00:25:08.869 Brian Conway: it's a role, like, you know, there's roles and responsibilities. So to split your attention has a number of problems. Now, the business might like it, because they might think, well, I'm getting two roles for the price of one, but they're not, that's a false economy.
00:25:09.250 --> 00:25:17.819 Brian Conway: What… another reason why a lot of sales managers are now kind of stepping into this player manager role is to shore up a lot of that sales shortfall.
00:25:17.820 --> 00:25:29.329 Brian Conway: They themselves, you know, their compensation and remuneration, their success, their recognition, you know, all that sort of stuff, which is important to us as salespeople. It's why we love the buzz of the game.
00:25:29.810 --> 00:25:49.060 Brian Conway: You know, that's all kind of threatened, so they think, well, I'll just step in, I'll take on some accounts, I'll show them how it's done. You know, a bit of the ego kind of comes in as well. And of course, they can't be seen to fail themselves, because obviously that just gives the whole team an excuse to go, well, I told you, see? Even you can't kind of close business. So they've got to close sales.
00:25:49.060 --> 00:25:57.019 Brian Conway: And of course, that means more and more of their attention is going on their own sales activity to try and be successful in that sense, meaning less and less.
00:25:57.020 --> 00:26:02.980 Brian Conway: support and coaching and everything that's important as a sales leader, less of that happens with their sales team.
00:26:02.980 --> 00:26:17.540 Brian Conway: And of course, then their sales teams start to get resentful. I've seen this. I've heard people say, well, they just cherry-pick all the best opportunities. They just take all the best leads. You know, they've got the best account. If I had that account, or that opportunity, I'd have been able to close it as well. You know, so they start to justify their own
00:26:17.600 --> 00:26:23.009 Brian Conway: failings, if I can call it that. So, as you can see, it just creates so many
00:26:23.210 --> 00:26:26.620 Brian Conway: Subconscious, psychological, as well as practical.
00:26:26.670 --> 00:26:31.809 Brian Conway: Issues that, after a time, it just really starts to unravel very quickly.
00:26:31.860 --> 00:26:37.540 Brian Conway: And then people just, like I say, they leave the manager, not the company. They just think, well, they don't care, no interest in me.
00:26:37.570 --> 00:26:55.919 Brian Conway: I'm not able to succeed here in this company, I'll just look for another job, and of course, the morale's down, and then other people see somebody else going maybe to a better job, and then they start thinking, well, maybe I'll just leave as well, because I don't get any support either. And as I said, it just becomes a spiral of disaster, really. So that's why, as you can tell, I'm kind of really…
00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:02.340 Brian Conway: passionate about this role and why it's so poor, such a bad decision, and fraught with so many problems.
00:27:02.940 --> 00:27:06.799 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yes, and what I've found is that
00:27:07.280 --> 00:27:14.600 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Oftentimes, even with this movement from perhaps a top performer into manager, but even just managers in general.
00:27:14.710 --> 00:27:19.339 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: not a lot of emphasis specifically on them as a manager. I think.
00:27:19.340 --> 00:27:19.810 Brian Conway: Huh.
00:27:19.810 --> 00:27:29.990 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: a lot of times, it's just thrown in along with whatever other sales things are going on, and both you and I have been in enablement roles, we are now.
00:27:30.230 --> 00:27:34.410 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We know that, you know, the successful clients that we've worked with
00:27:34.500 --> 00:27:54.420 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: had something specific for sales managers, and it was, you know, top-down in a lot of cases, where the sales management even got trained before we got, you know, or we helped train the sales managers before we got involved with training their team, so that that can happen. So what's the… what is the dynamic there between,
00:27:54.550 --> 00:28:08.160 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the managers maybe not being equipped like that, and then even the team perhaps being a little bit disjointed on its own, sounds like there's a lot of moving parts there, and what might, an alternative
00:28:08.280 --> 00:28:21.739 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you know, be to that in terms of how management can do a better job overall. After the break, which we're coming up to in a minute or two here, we'll get into more of what you do and how that helps, but just describe a little bit about that.
00:28:21.890 --> 00:28:24.819 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Scenario, and those… that… those conditions.
00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:41.350 Brian Conway: Yeah. Well, as I said, you know, they are very distinct roles and responsibilities, and that's the key, and then the roles of a manager really is to coach, support, you know, remove the roadblocks, all that sort of stuff, to enable their team to be successful. And I think that's one of the key transformations.
00:28:41.350 --> 00:28:55.499 Brian Conway: To think about as we go into the break, is that your success is no longer on your ability to close business, and as much as we love the deal and all that sort of stuff, you've got to recognize your success is now off the back of others, and that's a very different
00:28:55.660 --> 00:29:07.209 Brian Conway: way of thinking, and therefore your attention has to go into supporting, coaching, training, and giving people the time to train. If there was kind of one thing to think about as we go into the break, is
00:29:07.290 --> 00:29:21.040 Brian Conway: so often, even when people are on training courses, and you'll have seen this as well, Art, I'm sure, is that people having to dip out because their manager has called them out of the training, and they're only there for 3 or 4 hours, not 2 or 3 weeks like we were on some of these training courses.
00:29:21.040 --> 00:29:28.100 Brian Conway: And then their managers are pulling them out because there's an emergency, or they need some questions, and so even… so managers aren't even respecting
00:29:28.360 --> 00:29:34.050 Brian Conway: that the investment that these individuals are making in their own personal development sometimes. It can be as basic as that.
00:29:34.170 --> 00:29:47.239 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, yeah, great points. Alright, so right after the break, we'll continue with, you know, what are the things that Brian has seen that's successful, how he helps enable that, and the benefits that can come. So, we'll see you back in a couple minutes.
00:31:54.020 --> 00:32:10.799 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Alright, welcome back. We're talking with Brian Conway, and we just discussed some of the situations that are challenges for managers, for sales, in general, with the lack of attainment of quota, and some things that could be
00:32:11.120 --> 00:32:24.320 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: a result of, or that could be enabled by more focus on sales management and equipping sales management to be more successful and drive those close rates higher. So…
00:32:24.370 --> 00:32:31.819 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Brian, let's talk a little bit about what you've started doing, and then we'll get into the, you know, your…
00:32:32.110 --> 00:32:39.910 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The inner circle that you've created and some of the other things, but we've all heard the expression of, inspect what you expect.
00:32:40.310 --> 00:32:49.089 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I believe you've got a little bit of a different twist on that, if you want to lead into that, some of the things that you're saying that could be ways to implement
00:32:49.350 --> 00:32:50.060 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: impact.
00:32:50.060 --> 00:32:50.590 Brian Conway: Yeah.
00:32:50.990 --> 00:33:10.839 Brian Conway: Yeah, so first of all, as I touched on earlier, it isn't necessarily the sales manager's fault. I said it's their responsibility in some of the things they're doing, but quite a lot of times, that is pressures from above, or as I said, they just don't know what they don't know, because they've never been given any formal guidance or training on how to be an effective sales manager. But there's a few tips that I do share.
00:33:10.840 --> 00:33:19.969 Brian Conway: which can really make quite a big difference very, very quickly, which is why I said, you know, you can see quick turnaround, especially compared to turning, you know, changing out somebody in the team.
00:33:19.970 --> 00:33:24.060 Brian Conway: And a quick story, so I remember when I was in
00:33:24.130 --> 00:33:40.249 Brian Conway: early part of my sales career. I had one of my best sales managers was a guy called Gary, and I remember one day, I'd been on this training course, and he came over, and he perched on the end of the desk, and he said, so, you know, what are you working on? And we talked through some of the opportunities that I was working on, and he picked one, and he said, so what would happen if they didn't do anything?
00:33:41.020 --> 00:33:48.610 Brian Conway: I said, what do you mean? And he said, well, you know, if they don't do anything, they don't buy from us, they don't buy with a competitor, they just don't do anything, just carry on doing what they do. What would happen?
00:33:49.100 --> 00:34:01.610 Brian Conway: I said, I don't know. And I was in priest house at the time, and he said, well, I know you were on the training course recently, and that is, you know, the cost of doing nothing is something that's discussed, so…
00:34:01.610 --> 00:34:14.209 Brian Conway: when are you meeting them again? And I said, next week, etc. And, you know, he said, right, well, let's catch up next week and see what you can find out. So, I went to that meeting, as we all know, if we've ever asked that question, maybe not as direct as that, but with that being in mind.
00:34:14.360 --> 00:34:24.549 Brian Conway: like always, you kind of find out all the risks and costs associated with the transformation that it's trying to make, and what would happen if they didn't do it, and all that sort of stuff. So it was really kind of eye-opening.
00:34:24.679 --> 00:34:35.810 Brian Conway: So anyway, a week later, Gary comes over and he says, so, you know, how'd you get on? What did you find out? I said, oh, yeah, brilliant, you know, da-da-da-da-da. He said, good, you know, so you said you were working on this account as well. What would happen if they do nothing?
00:34:35.940 --> 00:34:39.259 Brian Conway: I said, well, I don't know, I'm meeting them tomorrow, I'll ask.
00:34:39.270 --> 00:34:46.560 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, it kind of became a bit of… a bit of sport, almost, so I didn't feel… because a lot of sales managers would say to me, oh, I don't want to micromanage.
00:34:46.560 --> 00:35:04.749 Brian Conway: Well, I think you should do probably more micromanaging, but I don't mean on somebody's case every day, but just… because it's the little things sometimes that can make a big difference. As they say, you know, small hinges swing big doors. So focus on some of these little things. So anyway, this kind of bit of banter went on over only a few weeks, to the point where I'm going.
00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:21.820 Brian Conway: every meeting, I'm going to ask this question so that when Gary asks me the question, I win, not him, so to speak, and that's what I said, it was almost a bit of sport. So what I came to realize, that actually, that's what he was inspecting, were the application of some of those fundamental, sort of, sales discovery questions.
00:35:21.820 --> 00:35:24.750 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And it led me to this realization that, actually.
00:35:24.750 --> 00:35:27.879 Brian Conway: People will respect what you inspect.
00:35:28.290 --> 00:35:37.209 Brian Conway: And that's the difference, again, kind of the play on what you just mentioned. People respect what you inspect, so if you just pick a few key, elements of their sales.
00:35:37.790 --> 00:35:40.010 Brian Conway: activities, and just…
00:35:40.190 --> 00:36:04.070 Brian Conway: coach them, and reinforce, and ask questions, and give scenarios, and maybe even shadow them if you can, if, you know, that's an option, and just give them some feedback around that particular area. But if somebody knows you're going to be talking about that one thing, it really brings that to the conscious competence, as you know, we call it, and people really work on it, and that's why it can just be a matter of weeks before all of a sudden that new skill or competency is really nailed in.
00:36:04.120 --> 00:36:14.950 Brian Conway: And you can move on to something else. You know, you're not going to inspect that for the rest of their life. Once you see people doing it, as Gary did then, because I was answering his question before he'd even ask it.
00:36:14.990 --> 00:36:26.209 Brian Conway: So, I could move on to the, kind of, the next skill factor, you know, and that… so to re… so to recognize that people will truly respect what you inspect can make a huge difference.
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:27.809 Brian Conway: And very quick change.
00:36:28.350 --> 00:36:36.090 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, and I love what Gary did there, because instead of just… Inspecting a checklist
00:36:36.670 --> 00:36:53.310 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: it was dig… it was digging deeper. And, you know, as soon as you said that in terms of what if they do nothing, so many different impacts start to come about, and I believe that by asking that, what Gary did a really good job of is, sort of, had you owned that, you know, because.
00:36:53.310 --> 00:36:53.910 Brian Conway: Makes sense.
00:36:53.910 --> 00:37:07.100 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: okay, by asking the client that, now they can sort of own that, like, are they really serious about this or not? And then me, as trying to drive the deal, I own it, because guess what? I don't want a do-nothing outcome. I don't want a
00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:21.949 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: outcome. That's what we're always… most always competing against, is do nothing. So that helps the client, it helps us, and in the end, what Gary wound up doing there is what our goal for all of us is, is the goal is client success. And then that.
00:37:21.950 --> 00:37:22.280 Brian Conway: Yes.
00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:27.500 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: up being your success, which winds up being his success. So that was… that was really brilliant.
00:37:27.500 --> 00:37:41.069 Brian Conway: And coming back to your snapshot as well, you know, these are… it's just those key… few key questions that can really help you expand, you know, find the data you need to make that an effective opportunity, you know, for everybody, as you said, you know, and that's it.
00:37:41.090 --> 00:37:51.499 Brian Conway: And especially the customer. You know, if I can better articulate the value of our proposition in line with those specific needs that I was able to identify, as you said, we all win.
00:37:51.500 --> 00:38:01.259 Brian Conway: And that's just kind of one thing. The question I often then get after that is, well, what do I inspect, though? That's the thing. And the problem is, we try and inspect often too many things.
00:38:01.270 --> 00:38:05.970 Brian Conway: Or it's just too generic, or too poor, you know, you need more op… you know, you need more in your pipeline.
00:38:06.630 --> 00:38:30.529 Brian Conway: Or you need to do more prospecting, you know, and even prospecting, you can break that down into so many elements, like who are they talking to, what are they saying, how often are they reaching… how many outreaches are they doing a day? How much follow-up, if any, are they doing it? What are they following up with? What assets and resources are they leveraging that could be used, you know, white papers, videos, whatever it might be.
00:38:30.530 --> 00:38:35.509 Brian Conway: So how, you know, really breaking it down, and I'm… so I say, you know, you've really got to deconstruct
00:38:35.850 --> 00:38:45.529 Brian Conway: the barriers that are really holding back the sale, and then just pick a couple of those at sort of maximum, really, to kind of inspect at any given time.
00:38:45.530 --> 00:38:59.459 Brian Conway: And remember, you're going to be doing this over a period of time, so there will be a lot of things you ultimately help that individual improve. And that's, you know, that's whether it's sales or pre-sales, it's exactly the same, that situation when I was in pre-sales at that time, so it doesn't matter, it just helped me have a much more
00:38:59.930 --> 00:39:14.060 Brian Conway: business conversation with my clients, so I could provide a much better technical solution, and work much more effectively with my account manager, which is, you know, as you know, is extremely important and beneficial to, to the whole process, so…
00:39:14.570 --> 00:39:22.700 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, absolutely, yeah, and I think it's important. I like about the idea of simplifying down what you're inspecting, and then eventually that becomes second nature.
00:39:22.770 --> 00:39:36.490 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And I should say respecting, because I really like that little twist, the respecting, so that becomes second nature. But also, make sure that what you are asking are things that matter, because you mentioned a couple things right there that
00:39:36.550 --> 00:39:41.140 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you know, it used to be like, how many calls can you make? Well, maybe if you're doing…
00:39:41.150 --> 00:39:57.710 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Transactional business, that might be the right thing to do, but if it's more of a consultative sale, it's not about how many calls, it's the quality of the call, and what's the result of that. Same thing with demos, it's not about how many demos, so that's, again, where I love the idea of respect, because respect says.
00:39:57.710 --> 00:40:05.159 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: There's more than just something that's being done, there's a reason behind it, and it's a helpful thing for the purpose of moving the deal forward.
00:40:05.590 --> 00:40:16.359 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So what… what… I don't know if you have a practical example toward that, or if you want to start to discuss a little bit about specific things around the Rep Rescue Playbook?
00:40:17.540 --> 00:40:37.309 Brian Conway: Yeah, well, so the Rep Rescue Playbook, I will come back to that, but the Rep Rescue Playbook kind of came back because I wanted a practical playbook, you know, a guide. So it's not about territory planning, or building a compensation plan, or recruitment, or HR issues and that sort of stuff. I wanted something that enabled sales managers
00:40:37.340 --> 00:40:47.490 Brian Conway: Either side of the organization, pre-sales or, you know, kind of field sales, to just tactically, almost, be able to start to turn around quickly their salespeople.
00:40:47.490 --> 00:40:59.519 Brian Conway: So, for example, within there, the first… there's three pillars to it, and the first thing is just, as I said, really deconstructing what's going on so you can find the thing that's broken. So you mentioned demos, for example. You know, I've had people
00:40:59.520 --> 00:41:08.909 Brian Conway: That have been just not able to move people through the sales process because their demo skills were poor, and we've just not identified where this kind of choke point was.
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:23.300 Brian Conway: And fundamentally, it was, you know, there's been different reasons, but as an example, somebody who's just talking about features and functionality all the time, not talking about business value. So we reworked their demo, and they got much better conversions. But then I had somebody else
00:41:24.020 --> 00:41:26.120 Brian Conway: Had a similar problem, demos.
00:41:26.580 --> 00:41:37.110 Brian Conway: fixed the demo, we thought, and nothing changed, and then realized, actually, it was the people they were inviting into the demos, it was the prospecting that was wrong. They were just bringing in, kind of, engineers and stuff, you know, because
00:41:37.110 --> 00:41:47.569 Brian Conway: they were interested. It was easy to fill the demos, because the goal they'd been given was to… you need more people in your demos, so they just felt like pipelines. People just fill it up with rubbish.
00:41:47.570 --> 00:41:56.310 Brian Conway: you know, to achieve the outcome that's being inspected, because that's what they will respect. So… so it's things like that. So the playbook is all about just creating a really tactical series of
00:41:56.550 --> 00:42:10.449 Brian Conway: plays and frameworks that you can use to identify what's broken, put a plan in place to turn them around quickly, and then reinforce it as well. So there's repair, find out what's broken.
00:42:10.600 --> 00:42:25.470 Brian Conway: To rebuild, you know, to put a plan in place then to rebuild that, and then reinforce. And that's another thing that's often missed, is that reinforcement, because statistically, only something like 13%, they say, of knowledge is retained after a training course, and
00:42:25.680 --> 00:42:33.150 Brian Conway: it needs that reinforcement by a manager to make the transformation that people have invested in. So, yeah, that's what it's fundamentally about.
00:42:33.820 --> 00:42:39.300 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, and that's why Gary kept asking you the same question over and over again, and it's like, okay, I got it.
00:42:39.300 --> 00:42:45.769 Brian Conway: And it was done in such a fun way as well. I didn't feel… you know, banter between us, it wasn't…
00:42:45.770 --> 00:42:46.340 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah.
00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:48.860 Brian Conway: You know, it wasn't… there was no pressure in it.
00:42:51.010 --> 00:42:53.949 Brian Conway: Well, it was helping you, you know? Yeah.
00:42:53.950 --> 00:43:12.929 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: became obviously the way that helped you, and I think that's where some of the best managers are, is with tools like what you're providing and frameworks that help guide them through it. Now, they can find the things that really are what helps their people, and ultimately that's helped them. And we can never go wrong when we have the client in mind as well.
00:43:13.060 --> 00:43:17.039 Brian Conway: So, some simple, measurable.
00:43:17.270 --> 00:43:19.710 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: collaboration behaviors, and…
00:43:19.900 --> 00:43:25.270 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: might I say, and we don't really have time to go into this in great detail, even reaching across
00:43:25.430 --> 00:43:40.150 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I think you did mention about not just… if you're a sales manager, don't just look from you down in your sales team. If you're pre-sales manager, don't just look from you down, look across at each other, and what can you do to help collaborate and strengthen the team, right?
00:43:40.580 --> 00:43:49.729 Brian Conway: Yeah, because if you're struggling and only got 80%, or got only 20% conversion, it's probably the same for the AM, or, you know, the AM sales manager, or vice versa.
00:43:50.180 --> 00:44:05.640 Brian Conway: Yeah, just talk and be… people are just a little afraid to expose themselves, which is why I created this inner circle that you touched on earlier, because you're just kind of afraid sometimes to… you've been promoted into this new role, as you said, and therefore you don't want to kind of be seen to be no
00:44:05.640 --> 00:44:10.379 Brian Conway: Good at your job, you know, especially when you've been really successful before, so it's kind of hard to open up
00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:11.610 Brian Conway: Sometimes.
00:44:12.420 --> 00:44:23.049 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, and so on that note, as we close out this segment, again, I really appreciate this. Great ideas that are actionable and much, much more available.
00:44:23.050 --> 00:44:36.579 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Remind us how we can contact you. I'm going to have the links in the show notes and all that also, but how we can contact you, and just say just a little bit more about that management inner circle, because I think it's a really unique offering that you provide.
00:44:36.830 --> 00:44:45.959 Brian Conway: Yeah. So, you can find me at represcue.co.uk, but represcue.co.uk forward slash
00:44:46.190 --> 00:45:01.720 Brian Conway: SMIC, Sales Manager Inner Circle, will give you access to this inner circle. So it's basically a community that I've created. I wanted to create a safe place for sales managers, as I said, to be able to network, support each other, share best practices, kind of…
00:45:01.900 --> 00:45:11.729 Brian Conway: talk shop away from the prying eyes of the SLT, so to speak, you know, you've seen in leadership. Because you can't talk to your front line, even though it might have been your friends a month ago, if you were promoted up.
00:45:11.750 --> 00:45:27.170 Brian Conway: probably because they're causing most of your anxiety, and you know, as I said, don't want to necessarily kind of expose yourself to your kind of new manager, either. So it's just a safe place. At the time of recording, anyway, I do intend to charge, but it's free of charge, so anybody who joins now will just be a kind of like a found,
00:45:27.310 --> 00:45:29.939 Brian Conway: What's the… I forgot what I did, but like…
00:45:29.940 --> 00:45:31.009 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: county member,
00:45:31.010 --> 00:45:32.160 Brian Conway: A founding member, thank you.
00:45:32.810 --> 00:45:55.009 Brian Conway: So it'll be free, and there's resources in there, checklists, and there'll be videos, and a virtual coffee morning where we can just kind of get on a call, like an open office hour, shoot the breeze, ask questions. So really, as I said, just a safe place for sales managers to hang out with other like-minded people who have this goal to really excel in the role, and more importantly, just build a team of highly performant, highly successful individuals, because the buzz from that
00:45:55.010 --> 00:45:58.589 Brian Conway: I believe is even greater Than the buzz of closing a major deal.
00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:11.330 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Awesome. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for sharing this with us. Everybody check out the links and join up with Brian. We'll talk again. Brian, thank you so much for all of your help. Appreciate it.
00:46:11.330 --> 00:46:13.960 Brian Conway: Thanks a lot, Siegam. Thanks for your time.
00:46:13.960 --> 00:46:15.440 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Alright, thank you.
00:48:02.900 --> 00:48:13.969 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Alright, everybody, welcome back, and again, thanks to Brian for that excellent segment. Highly recommend you go back and listen to it again, take notes, and then reach out to Brian.
00:48:14.090 --> 00:48:33.840 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: For this last segment, which I've dubbed Dear Artie, and I guess I'm still sticking with that for now, it's in the form of, like, a Dear Abby, if anybody's familiar with that. It was a columnist who would take viewers' life challenges, and then, they would be answered, you know, in terms of some advice and stuff.
00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:50.509 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: is really a dear arty in terms of asking your sales challenges. And by the way, really appreciate the ones that I've received already, and if you would like to offer one up on the show, and certainly if you want it to be anonymous, I totally understand.
00:48:50.510 --> 00:48:55.150 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: You could just mention that. Please go to TeamSalesDevelopment.com.
00:48:55.150 --> 00:49:13.039 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: go to the contact page, and there's a form there, and just put on there that you wanted to submit something for the show. Or, even if it's not for the show, and you just want some advice or some input, feel free to contact me. I'll be glad to reach out, and we can have a chat about that.
00:49:13.190 --> 00:49:28.419 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So there's a couple of things that have come up that I wanted to address, which were very aligned with our show for today. And the first one is from a pre-sales manager.
00:49:28.690 --> 00:49:41.029 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: who said, I'm often caught in the middle between account managers and sales engineers, because there's poor communication and there's trust issues.
00:49:41.180 --> 00:49:55.419 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The salesperson expects the SE to do the demo based on what they think is needed by the client, and the SE expects sales to give better information to do proper demo. I think many of us can relate to this situation.
00:49:55.420 --> 00:50:04.220 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Here's the thing from the manager's perspective. I'm forced to mediate conflicts, which is difficult, since I can't control the sales rep, and my SE is looking for air cover.
00:50:04.550 --> 00:50:22.240 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Some of the negative impact that this person mentioned was the ripple effect of internal friction leading to lost or closed deals, eroding trust between team members, damaging client experiences when the prospect feels unheard, and
00:50:22.390 --> 00:50:42.049 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: losses that went to do nothing, so a lot of the things that Brian and I talked about already today, which, for a sales manager, things that were mentioned and what Brian can help with would be part of that, for sure. One… a couple suggestions that I have, and again, I don't get the opportunity to dig deeper into these necessarily, so here are some ideas, and…
00:50:42.060 --> 00:50:53.370 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Take them as you see fit. If it gives you additional ideas, that's great. Run with it. A couple of things that I think is one of the things that, like, what Brian and I talked about was
00:50:53.610 --> 00:50:55.610 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: working across
00:50:55.720 --> 00:51:03.749 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the organization. So there's a lot that conspires against sales and SEs. That's one of the reasons that I wrote the book, is because
00:51:03.870 --> 00:51:15.679 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: there are so many different things, and it can't be covered in a quick webinar, podcast, or even, you know, learning session. It's really… it took a book to lay it all out. But one of the things is.
00:51:15.900 --> 00:51:29.470 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: as a manager to reach across to the other manager. Many times, managers who are managing frontline people have another manager and then an SVP, and those don't often connect until very high up.
00:51:29.470 --> 00:51:39.720 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: where oftentimes it could be an ops person, it might be a marketing person, somebody like that. So I recommend take the initiative at whatever level of management you're at.
00:51:40.240 --> 00:51:45.189 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And have a sit-down with your counterpart, and come up with some rules and engagement.
00:51:45.230 --> 00:52:05.069 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I think that, laying out the expectations that you each have, and having a common goal. So the easy common goal, and by the way, there's some… some… there's been a lot that's said about, hey, you know, make sure you get to know your sales counterpart. Yes, that's all fine and good. I think it's deeper than that. It has to also be…
00:52:05.120 --> 00:52:17.879 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: something on the operational level of how are you together working on client success? And specifically, in my book, and you've heard me talk about this in other talks and webinars, is
00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:33.309 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The idea of technical close, and what that means, and it's more than technical win. So technical close is, yes, getting them agree that your solution's the right solution, but also that they commit to move forward at the exclusion of do nothing, and
00:52:33.310 --> 00:52:48.580 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: that they will take that to the business decision maker, and then for the sales counterpart, it's to get the business decision maker to say, yes, we're moving forward with your opportunity. It's kind of like what Brian was saying, what if they do nothing, right? So get them to say, yes.
00:52:48.580 --> 00:52:58.810 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: they will move forward, at the exclusion of other projects they're working on, based on the recommendation of the technical decision maker. So, the client
00:52:59.080 --> 00:53:05.639 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: should be enabled and facilitated to have that discussion. What does that mean for sales? Well, that means we now know
00:53:05.940 --> 00:53:21.619 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the goal that each is going for, what pre-sales is going for, what sales is going for. And that's to get that handoff by the client. That means for sales and pre-sales, working together better. And as managers, we can drive that. One of the key things Brian said was.
00:53:21.620 --> 00:53:33.440 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: keep it simple as far as what you're inspecting, so that, you know, they know what you respect, so that they will listen to it and do it, because it's the right thing. I think a simple agreement, quote-unquote, on…
00:53:33.460 --> 00:53:45.179 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: What are we both doing together to drive the client forward? Might sound trivial, but try it and see what happens, because just that common engagement and agreement
00:53:45.350 --> 00:53:50.749 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: on the way that you're working together is one thing. Another thing is,
00:53:51.080 --> 00:54:02.059 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: it's kind of like, you know, the principle of, if there's something… if there's something wrong with some, you know, you feel like somebody did you wrong, go directly to them. I would encourage that as a sales team.
00:54:02.060 --> 00:54:16.049 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you encourage your team to talk with each other first and directly. Like, don't always just go up to the manager and then gotta come back down. That's what this person is saying. You know, I'm always getting pulled into these things. Well, I think as a manager.
00:54:16.180 --> 00:54:28.359 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the idea would be is equip your team to enable them to give them permission to talk with the other person and, like, work it out. And since they'll have a common goal, it's more likely that they can work that out.
00:54:28.570 --> 00:54:35.740 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, rather than the AE and the SEE and, you know, requiring a manager to sit in the middle.
00:54:37.010 --> 00:54:52.460 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: then make sure that they're working together. And then I think that giving your team some coaching on how to give constructive feedback, because sometimes it could come off as a blame game, like, why aren't you giving me enough information? Why aren't you just doing the demo?
00:54:52.460 --> 00:54:59.980 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And then that causes more divide. We already have enough conspiring against us. What can we do to try to have
00:55:00.100 --> 00:55:07.390 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Teach some constructive feedback. Maybe teach some negotiation skills. You know, negotiation skills…
00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:26.460 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: don't always have to be done for you and a client that you're trying to sign up. It can be a negotiation amongst the team members. And what I advocate is for interest-based negotiation, which is based on the book Getting to Yes and the Harvard Business Project. It's about what are our common interests?
00:55:26.460 --> 00:55:32.120 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: AE is trying to achieve quota, the SE is trying to deliver a really great
00:55:32.430 --> 00:55:37.309 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And, as Brian was pointing out, value-based presentation or demo.
00:55:37.350 --> 00:55:53.050 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, for the SE, it can and should be, help me to help you. Our common interest is moving the client together, forward together. So, therefore, instead of, you know, I need this from you, you need this, you know, I need this from you, and going back and forth.
00:55:53.050 --> 00:55:58.490 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: What can we do together, and then set those proper guidelines, goals.
00:55:59.520 --> 00:56:14.939 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: common interests and boundaries so that we know that we're not going to be going back up to management all the time. That's not healthy for anybody. So I believe this will lead to an encouragement back to this manager and anybody in management roles that, you know, Brian's talking about working with.
00:56:15.670 --> 00:56:26.380 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: help equip your team to have those healthy relationships. It's not just a sales team and a pre-sales team, it's teams working together at the opportunity and account level.
00:56:26.590 --> 00:56:43.899 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I believe that that is going to generate better win rates, so that's what's in it for the salesperson. More confident teams, so that builds everybody's confidence up and trust in the client. The client will feel heard and understood through the sales process, and we will help them
00:56:44.260 --> 00:56:55.250 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you know, with their buying process, instead of, you know, us trying to figure out our sales process. So, that's just some guidance that I would have along that lines.
00:56:55.560 --> 00:57:00.040 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: As a side note, and I talked about this as well earlier on my very first show.
00:57:00.190 --> 00:57:11.119 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Sales, at the end of the day, is all about persuasion and influence. And what we're doing is really selling each other on the idea of what we should do together. So between negotiation skills and
00:57:11.230 --> 00:57:28.010 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: basic sales skills of influence and persuasion that can help everybody. So, whoever wrote that in, I'd love to hear your feedback on what you thought about it, or anybody else that's applied pieces of that. Maybe it's just a reminder, or maybe it's something new, but I would say try that and see how far it can get you.
00:57:28.130 --> 00:57:45.009 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Alright, as we're wrapping up here then, thank you so much for participating in today's show. Thanks again to Brian for sharing all of his great ideas. Make sure you check out the show notes for ways to engage. Also, please check out the TeamSalesDevelopment.com website.
00:57:45.050 --> 00:57:58.019 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: have tons of resources on there, webinars and other things I've done. I even have a AskTSD Anything bot, so you can ask the bot about, you know, maybe sales methodologies or processes.
00:57:58.020 --> 00:58:05.919 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Take advantage of that. It's got a lot of my stuff in there already, my book, and other things like that. It can draw from all that.
00:58:06.030 --> 00:58:19.039 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Also, please look up the book, Making Seamless Sales. There is a spot on the website for that. And the idea with Making Seamless Sales is getting pre-sales and sales to work together seamlessly in order to generate
00:58:19.040 --> 00:58:26.289 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: better outcomes for you and for the client. So there's tons of ideas there, including the consultative sales methodology.
00:58:26.560 --> 00:58:39.570 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So feel free to contact me if you've got any plans for sales kickoff or other events that I can help you with, any of your consultative selling needs, workshops, glad to discuss that.
00:58:39.750 --> 00:58:45.890 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Remember to join next week when we talk with Chris Smith about CRMs shouldn't suck.
00:58:46.200 --> 00:58:51.430 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So until then, have a great one, everybody. Take care, and have a great week ahead.
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