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EPISODE SUMMARY:
It’s easy for us to call out the bad bosses. It’s harder to look in the mirror and confront the bad boss staring back at you. In this episode, you'll discover how anyone can fall into the trap of becoming a bad boss—often without realizing it—as well as strategies managers and employees can use to make work more manageable.
WHAT YOU WILL LEARN:
During the course of her career, top workplace strategist Mita Mallick has worked for a wide range of bad bosses:
The bad boss who fell asleep in meetings.
The bad boss who took credit for all her work.
The bad boss who once threw her designer shoe at Mita's colleague.
The bad boss who told her she was a rat and demanded loyalty.
The bad boss who told her she was overconfident and needed to stay in her lane.
The bad boss who gossiped about her to others and told her peers she didn’t really know what she was doing.
The bad boss who was so nice and so profoundly incompetent and as much as she wanted to, it was really hard to hate him.
In this episode, we'll explore a few of the many ways bosses can create an unhealthy workplace and disengagement, how any one of us could be susceptible to becoming one of those bad bosses for someone else, and how we can manage and mitigate against this.
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ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Mita Mallick is a WSJ and USA Today bestselling author, LinkedIn Top Voice, workplace strategist, speaker, and coach to start-up founders, executives, and public CEOs. A change maker with a track record of transforming culture and business, Mita gives innovative, culturally-resonant ideas a voice and serves customers and communities with purpose. Her highly anticipated second book, The Devil Emails at Midnight: What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses, will be published on September 30, 2025 by Wiley.
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LINKS:
www.gotowerscope.com
www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-hard-skills-dr-mira-brancu-m0QzwsFiBGE/
www.mitamallick.com/
www.amazon.com/Devil-Emails-Midnight-Leaders-Bosses/dp/1394316488
www.linkedin.com/in/mita-mallick-2b165822/
www.instagram.com/mita_mallick13/
Tune in for this innovative conversation at TalkRadio.nyc or watch the Livestream by Clicking Here.
In this opening segment, Dr. Mira Brancu challenges leaders to recognize that “bad boss” tendencies aren’t just out there—they can show up in the mirror when mentoring slips into micromanaging or kindness undermines trust. She highlights the importance of building leadership resilience through her upcoming Towerscope programs, while introducing guest Mita Mallick, a best-selling author whose new book, The Devil Emails at Midnight, explores lessons leaders can learn from bad bosses. Their conversation underscores that even accomplished leaders can unintentionally repeat harmful patterns, and that leadership requires continuous reflection, humility, and skill development to truly strengthen workplace culture.
In this segment, Mita Mallick shares vivid stories from her book The Devil Emails at Midnight, spotlighting three “bad boss” archetypes: the midnight emailer, the disengaged napper, and the over-involved chopper. She emphasizes how leaders who withhold time or boundaries push teams toward burnout, while disengagement breeds cultural decline, and micromanagement erodes creativity and initiative. Together, she and Dr. Mira Brancu highlight that leaders must protect time, foster meaningful connections, and trust their teams if they want to retain high performers and build healthy, resilient workplace cultures.
In this part of the conversation, Mita Mallick and Dr. Mira Brancu examine two more damaging leadership patterns: the “White Rabbit” boss who manufactures constant urgency, leaving teams desensitized and burned out, and the “Great Pretender” who presents as an advocate but undermines employees—such as penalizing Mita for her pregnancy. They also spotlight “Medusa,” the screaming, tantrum-throwing boss whose fear-based tactics drive short-term results but ultimately destroy culture, trust, and retention. Their dialogue reinforces that unchecked behaviors—whether frantic busyness, bias, or bullying—erode organizations from within, and leaders must replace them with awareness, accountability, and genuine support if they want to sustain high-achieving teams.
In the closing segment, Mita Mallick stresses that many bad bosses persist because systems protect them, but most leaders do know when they’ve crossed a line—it’s whether they pause to reflect and act on it that matters. She encourages leaders to pay attention to subtle feedback from others, use tools like exit and stay interviews, and hold themselves accountable to one small change that improves how they show up at work. Dr. Mira Brancu wraps by reminding listeners to apply these insights, explore her Towerscope resiliency programs, and keep building leadership practices that strengthen culture rather than erode it.
00:00:40.070 --> 00:00:47.360 Mira Brancu: It's easy for us to call out the bad bosses. It's harder to look in the mirror and confront the bad boss staring right back at you.
00:00:47.510 --> 00:01:02.799 Mira Brancu: Any one of us can fall into the trap of becoming a bad boss, or having the chance to make work more manageable. For example, maybe you think that you're mentoring, but in fact you're micromanaging. Maybe your attempts at kindness are slowly eroding trust.
00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:22.929 Mira Brancu: We're in Season 9, where we're focusing on strengthening workplace culture, and this discussion we're gonna have is perfect for it. One reminder before we start, this fall, my Towerscope Leadership Academy is sponsoring a new Strategic Leadership Resiliency Fellows program, and we're offering two options.
00:01:23.310 --> 00:01:35.480 Mira Brancu: The Anti-Burnout Lab is a half-day workshop on October 9th from 12 to 5 Eastern Standard Time, focused on getting grounded, mitigating burnout, and developing greater resiliency capacity.
00:01:35.930 --> 00:01:44.090 Mira Brancu: The Strategic Leadership Resiliency Incentive is a much more comprehensive five-week program from October 16th to 20th.
00:01:44.140 --> 00:01:57.860 Mira Brancu: To November 20th, sorry, from 4 to 6 Eastern, focused on learning everything in my Strategic Leadership Pathway Model to go from grounded to growth, navigating complex environments, team dynamics, and culture change.
00:01:57.860 --> 00:02:05.520 Mira Brancu: It's also our prerequisite if you would like to be in the Leadership Academy and qualify for the Strategic Leadership Certificate.
00:02:06.470 --> 00:02:21.520 Mira Brancu: You can get both of these two programs as a bundle for less, too. So I'm going to be sharing publicly starting September 10th, but if you want to save some money, you can get the early bird rate by getting on my newsletter no later than today by signing up at Gotowerscope.com.
00:02:21.850 --> 00:02:31.150 Mira Brancu: Where you can also learn more about these programs. Registration will run through September 29th, with 20 available seats for each of those options.
00:02:31.630 --> 00:02:33.710 Mira Brancu: So…
00:02:35.230 --> 00:02:48.660 Mira Brancu: We have a little bit of a technical issue. I'm going to send that to my engineer right now, so that maybe she can help us as I'm still sharing this information right now.
00:02:49.620 --> 00:02:59.939 Mira Brancu: And in the meantime, I'm gonna introduce our guest as she tries to work through the technical issue, okay? Mita Malik.
00:03:00.100 --> 00:03:18.679 Mira Brancu: is a Wall Street Journal and USA Today best-selling author, LinkedIn top voice, workplace strategist, speaker and coach to startup founders, executives, and public CEOs. She gives innovative, culturally resonant ideas a voice, and serves customers and communities with purpose.
00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:31.340 Mira Brancu: Her highly anticipated second book, The Devil Emails at Midnight, What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses, will be published on September 30th by Wiley, which is exactly why I invited her to come on my show today.
00:03:31.420 --> 00:03:39.849 Mira Brancu: So, as we're working through, getting her on the show, I'm gonna pause here for a moment to help her, connect.
00:08:10.540 --> 00:08:11.290 Mita Mallick: Hello!
00:08:11.290 --> 00:08:13.810 Mira Brancu: Hello, it worked! Yay!
00:08:14.070 --> 00:08:16.880 Mira Brancu: My apologies, we haven't had this,
00:08:16.880 --> 00:08:23.990 Mita Mallick: No, it's okay, you know, it happens, with another client from Pixar, and I ended up sending them a Google Meets, but it's somehow… anyways, I'm here, we'll see.
00:08:23.990 --> 00:08:40.229 Mira Brancu: All right, okay, so I already gave you the intro, we'll go right into the questions, okay? Awesome. All right. All right, so, so, Mita, I'm so excited that you're here. I love your book. I could probably read it over and over again. Oh, thank you so much.
00:08:40.230 --> 00:08:41.360 Mita Mallick: That's so kind of you.
00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:44.230 Mira Brancu: Yeah, no, totally, totally. So,
00:08:44.330 --> 00:09:02.589 Mira Brancu: I… a lot of what you write in your book is, is, like, regular bad behavior we don't want to see in anybody, right? Like, taking credit for other people's work, right? Or gossiping, or, betraying our trust and things like that, and so I'm curious, what led you to specifically focus on
00:09:02.590 --> 00:09:05.380 Mira Brancu: Bosses with these bad behaviors.
00:09:05.780 --> 00:09:11.490 Mita Mallick: So, the story starts a few years ago when my mother's home in New England was flooded and destroyed.
00:09:11.490 --> 00:09:35.160 Mita Mallick: And it was a cold New England day, the pipe in the attic had burst, really small hole, and went through the whole house, and anyone who's been in the trauma of losing a home, it's a lot. So I'm in my childhood bedroom trying to save all these things, and I come across a notebook I had had from my 20s, and I actually had written down names of my bad bosses, nicknames, and little vignettes, and things they had done and said to me, and I thought.
00:09:35.160 --> 00:09:54.669 Mita Mallick: well, gosh, isn't this, like, a Mean Girls burn book moment? Like, and that's when you asked me, like, why write about this? I thought to myself, what if I am in someone else's notebook? What if I've done this and been this for someone else? And I have, and if you're listening to this, and you worked for me many years ago, I was probably micromanaging Mita, right? I'm very now…
00:09:54.670 --> 00:10:00.020 Mita Mallick: hopefully more aware of my bad boss tendencies, but I think bosses, whether we…
00:10:00.150 --> 00:10:18.320 Mita Mallick: You know, believe it or not, I think most of us would agree that they hold a lot of power in our organizations, even though we're trying to be in service of each other, we're trying to disrupt the workplace. At the end of the day, we still have hierarchy, we still have work charts, we still have titles for now, and bosses can make or break your experience at work.
00:10:18.820 --> 00:10:28.340 Mira Brancu: That's right, and I just also really appreciate that, like, you connected it to the fact that we all can have these tendencies without realizing it, like.
00:10:28.340 --> 00:10:28.780 Mita Mallick: Yes.
00:10:28.780 --> 00:10:36.169 Mira Brancu: you know, I look back on my own experiences where I've flubbed up, you know, and
00:10:36.630 --> 00:10:53.359 Mira Brancu: you know, it's embarrassing, and I feel really badly about it, and, you know, I hope that somebody will have some understanding and compassion for me later, but it's good to reflect on these things. So, let's start with, like, the reflections that you had.
00:10:53.360 --> 00:11:04.370 Mira Brancu: And, you know, you realized, you mentioned, like, you realized, there was once a micromanaging Rita, Rita, sorry, and…
00:11:04.730 --> 00:11:09.630 Mira Brancu: I'm curious, how did you… realize…
00:11:09.730 --> 00:11:21.199 Mira Brancu: That you had been one of these bad bosses before, and, what you hope others will learn from this experience of reading your book and reflecting on your experiences and others that you wrote about.
00:11:21.420 --> 00:11:30.049 Mita Mallick: Well, first of all, I've been a multiple, multiple times a bad boss. So the whole idea is that we go from bad boss to good leader to good leader to bad boss, depending on the circumstances.
00:11:30.370 --> 00:11:55.250 Mita Mallick: is not just happening in the conference room, but also at the kitchen table. We can't compartmentalize these things. All of these things are showing up, and we're reacting to what's happening around us, and so I think that's so important. I mean, one of the first times, it was a complete circus when I managed people for the first time. No one tells you what to do. They just say, hey, congratulations, you're so good at doing this one thing. Now you get to be in charge of, like, yeah, you get a fancy title, maybe you have an office now, and you get to be in charge of 10 people.
00:11:55.250 --> 00:11:59.540 Mita Mallick: I don't know how to do this, and there's rarely any training, which is also what
00:11:59.540 --> 00:12:13.729 Mita Mallick: prompted me to write The Devil Emails at Midnight, but one of the things that happened, and it was a gift for me, my team started almost calling me out on the micromanagement. And I give the example in the Devil Emails at Midnight, where I had redone an entire deck.
00:12:14.540 --> 00:12:29.680 Mita Mallick: Which was not uncommon for micromanaging media. And they asked me, they said, you know, on slide 5, for example, why did you change that image? Can you explain why? Or we noticed you changed the font sizes, or we noticed that you changed the color on the graphs.
00:12:29.680 --> 00:12:43.960 Mita Mallick: Can you help us understand why? And why is a powerful question. There was no judgment in it. Of course, there's hierarchy. They're not gonna be like, you're micromanaging us, Mita. Rarely are people gonna say that to you. But they were, interestingly enough, being a mirror. I don't even know if they realized they were doing it. They were trying to understand.
00:12:44.330 --> 00:12:50.960 Mita Mallick: Why was I doing it? And it was my need for control and to manage things, because their image was fine.
00:12:51.100 --> 00:13:02.679 Mita Mallick: But I wanted to make sure it was perfect, right? So I went back through and redid everything, and that was one of the first times I was like, wow, these questions are really powerful. I'm seeing what I'm doing now.
00:13:02.900 --> 00:13:05.209 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and also,
00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:13.630 Mira Brancu: I think you pointed out something very important that happens constantly, which is we are still in this, like, old-school mindset that if…
00:13:13.770 --> 00:13:24.770 Mira Brancu: You are a technical expert who is great at what you do, and you happen to have some people skills, then naturally you'll be a fabulous manager, if we just promote.
00:13:24.770 --> 00:13:25.649 Mita Mallick: The part, yes.
00:13:25.650 --> 00:13:27.700 Mira Brancu: Right? And instead of…
00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:38.849 Mira Brancu: Recognizing that management and leadership is, like, another lane of expertise that you need to learn and figure out how to apply. And so.
00:13:38.850 --> 00:13:55.390 Mira Brancu: Normally, it's very common to do the micromanage-y stuff in your first role, because you know the stuff really well, you were promoted, and so you want to have a say in the things that you know really well, because it makes you feel competent, right?
00:13:55.630 --> 00:14:04.849 Mira Brancu: So, with that in mind, I want us, we're reaching an ad break. When we come back from the ad break, I want us to go through a couple of these
00:14:04.990 --> 00:14:07.040 Mira Brancu: my favorite, juicy. Sure.
00:14:07.040 --> 00:14:25.720 Mira Brancu: boss styles and describe them a little bit. So, you are listening to The Hard Skills. Meeta Malik is a Wall Street Journal and USA Today best-selling author, LinkedIn top voice, workplace strategist, speaker, and coach to startup founders, executives, and public CEOs. She,
00:14:25.760 --> 00:14:45.260 Mira Brancu: Her second book is coming out in just a few weeks, The Devil Emails at Midnight, which is why I have her on today. So look for it, it's already on Amazon, and the Hard Skills itself is sponsored by Towerscope, my leadership and team development consulting firm. You can learn more about it at GoTowerscope.com.
00:14:45.260 --> 00:14:47.889 Mira Brancu: the Hard Skills Show livestreams.
00:14:47.890 --> 00:14:55.480 Mita Mallick: on Tuesdays at 5 p.m. Eastern on LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitter, Twitch, all over the place, through TalkRadio.nyc, and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:17:06.460 --> 00:17:11.660 Mira Brancu: Welcome, welcome back to the Hard Skills with Mita Malik. Okay, Mita, so…
00:17:12.150 --> 00:17:16.660 Mira Brancu: The Devil Emails at Midnight is about one of these 13 bad bosses.
00:17:16.660 --> 00:17:17.190 Mita Mallick: Right.
00:17:17.190 --> 00:17:23.650 Mira Brancu: So, I would love to hear more about what is this bad behavior, what is it about, why is it such a bad behavior?
00:17:23.810 --> 00:17:35.240 Mita Mallick: It was inspired, the title, by my opening chapter, one of my first Bad Boss experiences in corporate America, and I was so excited to work for this boss, like, super excited, and the feeling was just not mutual.
00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:35.640 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:51.239 Mita Mallick: And the entire thread of the story is that she never had time for me, except at midnight, between the hours of 10pm and 2AM. So in the office, it looked like me chasing her around the office, literally like a golden retriever. Could she smile, wave, say hello, stop by my desk?
00:17:51.260 --> 00:18:05.970 Mita Mallick: come by the cafeteria when she saw me. No. No, no, no. I remember chasing her out to the parking lot once. This is a true story. I was trying to get her attention, and she drove off. And so, it just boggled my mind. And of course, I was junior, I wanted to impress her, so what would happen? She would start
00:18:06.080 --> 00:18:12.199 Mita Mallick: I'm emailing around 10pm, 10.30, and would send the, oh, the vendor needs this paid.
00:18:12.210 --> 00:18:19.559 Mita Mallick: Can you please help pull the data for Friday? Can you help prepare this customer deck? And so what would happen? I would start responding. Back.
00:18:19.560 --> 00:18:35.620 Mita Mallick: Because I wanted her attention, and so that would be my second shift. And that is the biggest complaint in any relationship, is you don't have enough time for me. And I don't understand, if you're leading teams today, if you don't have any time for your teams, then why are you leading? It is the idea that, like.
00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:48.880 Mita Mallick: as a team, your normal course of behavior is having the second shift at midnight, which is ultimately going to lead to burnout. What I'm not saying is that people don't have drive periods. I'm launching a book, I'm in a drive period, but I can't consistently operate.
00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:59.390 Mita Mallick: at a peak where I'm only sleeping X number of hours, right? And so, that's what I want really people to think about, is if you don't have time for your teams during the day and you're emailing them at midnight, game over.
00:19:00.090 --> 00:19:08.709 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely, and… Boy, 10pm to 2 a.m. I mean, that, it's an…
00:19:08.710 --> 00:19:11.379 Mita Mallick: A range, a range, right? It came in flurries.
00:19:11.380 --> 00:19:22.410 Mira Brancu: Right, but, you know, I mean, it's one thing to, like, this is how I work, right? Like, but it's another to impact other people and expect them to work the way that you work, right?
00:19:22.930 --> 00:19:24.590 Mira Brancu: And I will say that
00:19:24.930 --> 00:19:42.840 Mira Brancu: what I think is, interesting about this is, you know, we do a lot of work as coaches around time management, about productivity, boundary setting. All of this is about time, how we use our time thoughtfully.
00:19:42.840 --> 00:19:44.990 Mita Mallick: Yes. We don't give enough…
00:19:45.300 --> 00:19:51.720 Mira Brancu: credence, I think, to… How much time are you giving to the people who need your time?
00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:53.150 Mita Mallick: Right? Who… and…
00:19:53.150 --> 00:19:59.980 Mira Brancu: And this is kind of like… your description is a great way for us to think about
00:20:00.380 --> 00:20:06.709 Mira Brancu: okay, if I don't give time during the day to the people who need my time, this is the end result.
00:20:07.210 --> 00:20:07.990 Mita Mallick: It is, yeah.
00:20:07.990 --> 00:20:09.280 Mira Brancu: And, yeah.
00:20:09.280 --> 00:20:18.099 Mita Mallick: Absolutely. And I don't want people walking away saying, you have to give Mita on your team 90 minutes a day. It's that if you look at your calendar, and you haven't even met with me once in the month.
00:20:18.690 --> 00:20:32.489 Mita Mallick: Wow. Like, just to check in about a project, ask how I'm feeling about the work, career goals, aspirations. I mean, there's interestingly a lot of backlash in the marketplace right now. An executive at a tech company saying, I don't do one-on-ones.
00:20:33.220 --> 00:20:41.089 Mita Mallick: with my… I find those useless, and I'm like, wow, one-on-ones are, like, the most underrated retention tool out there.
00:20:41.370 --> 00:20:41.770 Mira Brancu: Yes.
00:20:41.770 --> 00:20:56.190 Mita Mallick: work for you, and be seen, and recognized, and that you care I'm here. And so whether that's, like, a 15 minutes coffee catch-up, or a quick Zoom, or an audio message, there's so many ways to show people that you care and value them with time.
00:20:56.190 --> 00:20:58.420 Mira Brancu: That's right, and imagine, like, the flip.
00:20:58.560 --> 00:21:07.799 Mira Brancu: Mita Malik, who was so excited to, you know, just work with this person, right? Like, imagine just,
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:13.239 Mira Brancu: If this person had poured a little bit more into you, how much more.
00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:16.569 Mita Mallick: you would have been able to give back. Absolutely.
00:21:16.570 --> 00:21:17.550 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah.
00:21:17.730 --> 00:21:23.739 Mira Brancu: Now, the other, the other, type, which I feel like is almost the opposite, it's
00:21:23.890 --> 00:21:25.959 Mira Brancu: Is a napper.
00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:26.620 Mita Mallick: Oh, yeah.
00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:30.880 Mira Brancu: I love the names that you gave these people, but anyway, the napper who is, like.
00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:41.099 Mira Brancu: a little bored, unmotivated, like, completely disengaged, disconnected. Share a little bit more about what you saw in this person that was kind of, like, the flip to…
00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:43.350 Mira Brancu: The, the devil emailing at me.
00:21:43.350 --> 00:22:01.650 Mita Mallick: A little tea and backstory about the book is Mom has all the receipts. I talk to my mom every day. She remembers all these people. I mean, I've changed all the names, details. I don't want to name, shame, blame, demonize people. I actually hope they're good leaders today, I'm sure they are. But she remembers the Napper and all the details, because it was so outrageous. You just did… So, this was the person who fell asleep in any meeting.
00:22:01.650 --> 00:22:07.600 Mita Mallick: Large and small, and it was the worst kept secret, literally sleeping on the job. And for a while, I was like.
00:22:07.600 --> 00:22:26.579 Mita Mallick: Honestly, I had some level of empathy. Is he narcoleptic? Does he have substance abuse issues? Is he sleeping on the floor? Is he in a fight with his partner? What is happening in this person's life that they're constantly just falling asleep on the job? And then, as you read in The Devil Emails at Midnight, at one point, he's sitting in the cubicle next to me, and I hear him
00:22:26.580 --> 00:22:41.430 Mita Mallick: interviewing for jobs in the open. These aren't closed cubicles, they're like the open cubicles, and you're like, what is he doing? And he makes so much more than me! And you're like, wow, what… can I say, a middle finger? Like, I just don't care anymore?
00:22:41.430 --> 00:22:41.910 Mira Brancu: And I…
00:22:41.910 --> 00:22:49.759 Mita Mallick: do this at work, like, that's how disengaged I am. And disengagement is so contagious.
00:22:50.320 --> 00:23:01.779 Mita Mallick: the worst behavior you tolerate becomes your culture. I know we've heard that quote before, but just remember that. And so years later, I still wonder, why didn't they intervene sooner, particularly this vice president?
00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:04.619 Mita Mallick: Why didn't they just finally
00:23:04.820 --> 00:23:12.160 Mita Mallick: have him move on. They didn't, and I hope we have more courage in our workplaces to do that. I include a question that
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:29.810 Mita Mallick: Professor Michael Murphy of Harvard University asks, and it's the question of what would it take for you to be excited at work again? Like, isn't that a powerful question? This idea of someone so disengaged, you have the courage to confront them on it, and see what it would take to help them to recommit to the job. And if not, I always say.
00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:35.690 Mita Mallick: I'm meant to do great things, it's just not… might be on your team right now. It might be somewhere else, and so help people do that.
00:23:35.860 --> 00:23:39.809 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and if, if there's somebody out there who,
00:23:39.900 --> 00:23:53.600 Mira Brancu: is realizing, maybe from listening to this, that they might be this kind of person, that they aren't thrilled with their job, their current situation. Maybe they ended up being a supervisor, but, like.
00:23:53.680 --> 00:24:04.530 Mira Brancu: really don't like the experience of being a supervisor, or maybe they're really unhappy with their own work environment. They personally feel the work environment to be unhealthy. What,
00:24:04.710 --> 00:24:06.250 Mira Brancu: What would you recommend to them?
00:24:06.840 --> 00:24:08.510 Mita Mallick: Start making the exit plan.
00:24:08.690 --> 00:24:18.260 Mita Mallick: Have your resume ready, start making the exit plan. I'm not telling you to resign tomorrow. That's not always feasible. I hate when people would give me that advice. That's not possible. But you have to have a plan. You have to have to plan and work the plan.
00:24:18.260 --> 00:24:31.040 Mita Mallick: get the resume together, think about what you would want to do next. Is there something internally and externally that you could do? Internally, you know, it's interesting, some companies will move people to an individual contributor track. It just depends, that if you… yeah, I don't want to…
00:24:31.210 --> 00:24:50.369 Mita Mallick: manage this team of 15 anymore, and they respect you enough and value you enough, they'll do that. You know, start talking to people externally, start activating your network, and then what I would say is, are there… is there anything that you can find… if you can't recommit to the job, like we just talked about, is there anything you can find at work that could spark joy for you?
00:24:50.550 --> 00:25:08.730 Mita Mallick: Could you spend time mentoring others? Could you run an employee resource group? Could you get involved in a leadership development training? Is there a skill that you could be teaching others? Think about that. Is there something you could be doing that could bring some level of happiness and joy back to work? Not 100%, but something.
00:25:08.850 --> 00:25:18.109 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I agree. And, you know, just recognizing that, it's okay to recognize you're unhappy, you're disengaged, you don't want to be there.
00:25:18.110 --> 00:25:18.510 Mita Mallick: mess.
00:25:18.510 --> 00:25:20.860 Mira Brancu: But also to recognize that
00:25:20.930 --> 00:25:40.180 Mira Brancu: If you're also disengaging from the very people who are counting on you, now you're spreading it, as you say, contagious, right? Now you're spreading it to others and influencing others in a negative way, and that is a different kind of impact that you might not intend, but it is the impact, right? And,
00:25:40.530 --> 00:25:46.780 Mira Brancu: I really like the, idea about… finding…
00:25:46.920 --> 00:25:55.139 Mira Brancu: even tiny little things that could spark some joy while you're still in the situation, right? Because burnout is not just about
00:25:55.740 --> 00:26:04.690 Mira Brancu: being overloaded with things you don't like. It's also being underloaded with things you, you know, you would love to do, but you're not doing at all enough of, right?
00:26:04.690 --> 00:26:06.209 Mita Mallick: I love that you tease that out.
00:26:06.490 --> 00:26:08.149 Mita Mallick: Yeah, both parts of that, yes.
00:26:08.150 --> 00:26:11.890 Mira Brancu: Thank you. Okay, let's move on to the chopper.
00:26:11.890 --> 00:26:17.840 Mita Mallick: Oh, yes. Tell us about the chopper. Well, first of all, thank you for reading the book. Time is a precious commodity.
00:26:17.840 --> 00:26:20.599 Mira Brancu: Yes, loved it. It was so good. It was hard not to read it.
00:26:20.600 --> 00:26:36.749 Mita Mallick: Oh, thank you. The chopper is the helicopter manager. Listen, I'm a parent, so it's sort of the… for me, a lot of the analogies of helicopter parenting to helicopter management. Oh, what can I say? Except he loved doing our jobs, and not his own. Nothing brought him more joy.
00:26:36.750 --> 00:26:57.730 Mita Mallick: I actually brought that up. I thought it was really… it's a really interesting point about going from individual contributing to managing someone for the first time. That is when micromanaging META came out, micromanaging tendencies come out for many of us. But this person was actually moving divisions, had been a leader somewhere else in another function, and was coming onto this team. So I also think it can happen when someone's afraid to step into
00:26:57.730 --> 00:26:59.089 Mita Mallick: What they're meant to do.
00:26:59.090 --> 00:26:59.460 Mira Brancu: No.
00:26:59.460 --> 00:27:06.059 Mita Mallick: what they're supposed to do, and so they start to do everyone else's job, and just get really into the weeds.
00:27:06.060 --> 00:27:31.039 Mita Mallick: And he was… he was a nice person, right? He was always smiling and happy. It's really interesting, too, with some of these bad bosses. They're not always the ones, and we'll get into some of them, who cause a lot of harm to our mental health, but he just, oh my god, he was the boss who would move, like, you know, 14 times new Roman font to 10 to 12. You're like, what is going on? It was groupthink. We're sitting and working on things together in a conference room, and you're, like, wanting to scratch
00:27:31.040 --> 00:27:45.990 Mita Mallick: your eyes out, you're like, I don't need to watch you edit my deck. And I think what encapsulates this whole situation is a coworker that on the team had said to me, and I'll never forget this, what's the point of doing my best work? He's going to redo it anyways. I mean, there it is.
00:27:45.990 --> 00:27:46.410 Mira Brancu: Yes.
00:27:46.410 --> 00:27:53.729 Mita Mallick: That's the point. If you know micromanaging media's gonna come in and just redo it, that's when you start to just give a little less.
00:27:54.240 --> 00:28:01.890 Mita Mallick: don't do your entire best, don't do 100%, maybe just do 50%, because you know your boss is gonna do it over anyway.
00:28:01.890 --> 00:28:10.710 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and I think, we often think of… about bad bosses as the very, sort of, aggressive, bullying.
00:28:10.710 --> 00:28:16.939 Mita Mallick: Demeaning and, you know, invalidating type, but this is something we often overlook, this kind of…
00:28:16.940 --> 00:28:36.779 Mira Brancu: nice, but over-involved, kind of person, and that overcomplicates, overthinks, over, you know, works everything. And, the thing that I loved about what you wrote about in your book is the impact on you and other employees. It steals your creative spirit. Yes.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:47.580 Mira Brancu: steals your initiative, it takes away your desire to be your very best. So, it actually impacts high performers incredibly, badly, and
00:28:47.850 --> 00:29:03.069 Mira Brancu: One of the other books and other, guests that I had on the show, Nancy Parsons, talks about this as the leadership derailer that actually is a much larger unspoken derailleur than, let's say, the egotistical bosses.
00:29:03.070 --> 00:29:03.600 Mita Mallick: Yes.
00:29:03.600 --> 00:29:08.870 Mira Brancu: The perfectionism will derail you at, you know, along the way.
00:29:09.490 --> 00:29:11.599 Mita Mallick: Love that. So.
00:29:11.600 --> 00:29:30.620 Mira Brancu: Looking at, the, alert from our engineer, we're reaching another ad break. Before we get to the next set of bad bosses, we're going to take a quick ad break. We're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Meeta Malik, author of The Devil Emails at Midnight.
00:29:30.620 --> 00:29:36.899 Mira Brancu: The hard skills is on, linkedIn and on,
00:29:37.180 --> 00:29:48.990 Mira Brancu: YouTube, Twitter, Twitch, all over the place, and you can, livestream it Tuesdays, 5 p.m. Eastern, or see the recordings later, and we'll be right back with our guests in just a moment.
00:31:51.580 --> 00:32:01.040 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the Hard Skills with Meeta Malik. Okay, there are two more I would love to talk about that I think
00:32:01.380 --> 00:32:05.649 Mira Brancu: I was struck by because I feel like we're seeing
00:32:06.030 --> 00:32:10.969 Mira Brancu: more and more of this? I… they were all already always there.
00:32:10.970 --> 00:32:11.720 Mita Mallick: But…
00:32:13.780 --> 00:32:25.000 Mira Brancu: for some reason, and I think it's just because of the rapid pace of things, and also the high pressure that many leaders are under,
00:32:25.180 --> 00:32:39.509 Mira Brancu: there's the one who creates urgency and the great pretender that I'm super curious about hearing more about. So let's start with, like, the one who creates urgency. I think every single person knows somebody like this, but share a little bit about what this looks like and the impact.
00:32:39.510 --> 00:32:46.520 Mita Mallick: This boss I've nicknamed the White Rabbit, for those of you who grew up or have read Alice in Wonderland to little people in your life.
00:32:46.520 --> 00:33:04.419 Mita Mallick: Always late. Everything was urgent. I mean, she would just run in like a tornado into work, and you knew. It was, like, the fake fire drills being created, it was the badge of busyness, it was, I'm too busy to go to the bathroom, which is absolutely ridiculous when people say that. Just busy, busy, busy.
00:33:04.420 --> 00:33:07.410 Mita Mallick: Asking for things that no one asked for, but…
00:33:07.560 --> 00:33:22.420 Mita Mallick: trying to seem important. And I think, at the heart of it is, we're all afraid of becoming irrelevant, aren't we? Aren't we? So, for her, it was using busyness and fire drills as relevancy, and the best analogy I can think of is…
00:33:22.420 --> 00:33:46.539 Mita Mallick: you know, years ago when I lived in New York City in a high-rise apartment building, I remember the fire alarm would go off, and they would say, oh, it's a false alarm, it's a false alarm, and you're on, like, the 16th floor, you're not gonna race down, right? And then, it would just happen over and over again, because the system… something was going on. And so what happens? You just sit there and you become desensitized, because what should happen is, when you hear that sound.
00:33:47.140 --> 00:34:01.570 Mita Mallick: what have we all been trained since we were young? It's like, you run out of the building, but no one's running, and in this part of the Devil Emails at Midnight, there is actually an urgent request that comes from the CEO, and it's a Friday. She can't get anyone in the room.
00:34:01.800 --> 00:34:03.759 Mita Mallick: To meet with her, because it's that…
00:34:04.270 --> 00:34:05.940 Mita Mallick: The person who cried wolf over.
00:34:05.940 --> 00:34:06.290 Mira Brancu: Yes.
00:34:06.290 --> 00:34:11.930 Mita Mallick: So, actually, when everything is urgent, nothing's urgent, and then people don't believe you when something is urgent.
00:34:12.530 --> 00:34:18.600 Mira Brancu: That's right, that's right. And by the way, my, just my engineer is trying to distract me with GIFs about the white rabbit.
00:34:18.600 --> 00:34:24.359 Mita Mallick: Oh, God, I was like, what's going on? I love that. That is the description, you just need to look at the… that's it. That's it.
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:25.150 Mira Brancu: That's exactly it.
00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:28.529 Mira Brancu: So, yeah.
00:34:28.769 --> 00:34:35.289 Mira Brancu: The… The impact on others is that people will get weary.
00:34:35.419 --> 00:34:47.589 Mira Brancu: And they will pay less and less attention, or they'll get burned out, and they'll be exhausted with a feeling as if they have to pay attention to things that aren't as important
00:34:47.749 --> 00:34:56.109 Mira Brancu: as, they seem. I will admit that I was… Almost the exact opposite.
00:34:56.109 --> 00:35:02.379 Mita Mallick: Which is that because I came from a background of working with patients with suicidality.
00:35:02.379 --> 00:35:14.289 Mira Brancu: and very significant or severe mental health issues. It would take a lot for me, once I was in a management or leadership position, to find anything all that urgent and important. And so.
00:35:14.489 --> 00:35:30.359 Mira Brancu: I had to ask my, my staff, listen, if I'm not paying enough attention when you think I should be paying attention, please, hit me over the head and say, pay attention, Mira, this is important, because otherwise, I'll be like, it's not a big deal.
00:35:30.359 --> 00:35:33.290 Mita Mallick: That's incredibly self-aware. Yeah. That's amazing.
00:35:33.290 --> 00:35:39.779 Mira Brancu: Well, I'm sure something happened that led me to be that self-aware, like, people annoyed or upset with me.
00:35:40.270 --> 00:35:44.290 Mira Brancu: Okay, let's move into the grape pretender. What is this one about?
00:35:44.570 --> 00:36:04.240 Mita Mallick: gosh, it's the boss who punished me for being pregnant. And I think the interesting part in the double emails admitted is it was a woman leader, and she had a number of children, she was one of the leaders of the Women's Employee Resource Group, she was on, you know, social media talking about how great the company is, and then as soon as I
00:36:04.270 --> 00:36:06.609 Mita Mallick: tell her I'm pregnant. It's like…
00:36:08.060 --> 00:36:22.789 Mita Mallick: being left out of meetings, being taken off of projects, you no longer have to go to this leadership and development training, you're going out in a few months, but I'm going out in a few months, I'm still here, ready and capable of working. And I think this is an interesting one, because so often we think.
00:36:22.790 --> 00:36:33.810 Mita Mallick: Sure, men have biases against women, women have biases against men. We all have biases against each other, whether we realize it or not, and things that we've been raised with, and women.
00:36:33.810 --> 00:36:49.479 Mita Mallick: can hold other women back in their careers. And so that, I think, was an important one I wanted to include in the book, because I have talked about men holding women back, but it can be anybody, and that's so important, particularly as someone who's pretending to be an advocate for mothers in the workplace.
00:36:49.480 --> 00:37:00.559 Mira Brancu: That's right. It's incredibly disappointing, too. Like, I've had experiences where I was so disappointed by, you know, somebody who I thought
00:37:00.560 --> 00:37:13.370 Mira Brancu: you know, had the same kind of feminist values as I did, or… and it ended up being very performative, or maybe not performative, but just, like, a lack of realization of how they were
00:37:13.420 --> 00:37:17.630 Mira Brancu: Constantly replaying out internalized sexism or.
00:37:17.630 --> 00:37:18.400 Mita Mallick: Hmm…
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:23.779 Mira Brancu: Things like that, where they didn't realize, that, you know.
00:37:23.780 --> 00:37:42.280 Mira Brancu: this actually feeds into and perpetuates the same problems that you went through yourself. You know, why would you perpetuate that? And I've had a number of women reach out, like, I don't understand why my, you know, woman boss is holding all of us women back and, is not as supportive as the men. And I said, well.
00:37:42.310 --> 00:37:45.199 Mira Brancu: she might not realize she's even doing it. Yeah.
00:37:45.200 --> 00:37:48.159 Mita Mallick: Yeah, it's internalized. Yeah, it's a scarcity mindset.
00:37:48.370 --> 00:37:48.820 Mira Brancu: Yes.
00:37:48.820 --> 00:37:49.890 Mita Mallick: Also…
00:37:50.330 --> 00:38:06.039 Mita Mallick: thinking that whatever worked best for me, I know, because I'm going through the same journey, is gonna work best for you. So sometimes, I talk about intent and impact, sometimes they think the intention is positive, but the impact lands completely different.
00:38:06.220 --> 00:38:19.850 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I appreciate that also, because, I've been in situations where, you know, regardless of gender, a, you know, boss or someone in a position of power, was…
00:38:19.990 --> 00:38:23.939 Mira Brancu: Supposedly, quote-unquote, protecting me.
00:38:24.270 --> 00:38:33.729 Mira Brancu: from opportunities because I had kids, for example. Well, you're too busy, so I don't want you to, like, take on too much. Why don't you ask me and let me make that decision?
00:38:33.730 --> 00:38:40.740 Mita Mallick: Do we have the same boss? Just kidding. I know many of us are listening to your story saying, yep, happened to me.
00:38:40.740 --> 00:38:53.980 Mira Brancu: That's right, that's right. And I don't think a lot of people realize that, but it is, you know, it's patronizing, and overprotective, unnecessarily. So, if that's you.
00:38:54.490 --> 00:38:59.020 Mira Brancu: Just ask them what they think about the opportunity, and let them make their decision.
00:38:59.020 --> 00:39:02.620 Mita Mallick: Definitely. I always say, who gave you permission to slow down my career?
00:39:02.620 --> 00:39:03.590 Mira Brancu: Yeah,
00:39:03.590 --> 00:39:08.639 Mita Mallick: who gave me permission. Listen, I wish I had said that to this individual's face. That was…
00:39:08.950 --> 00:39:19.500 Mira Brancu: Months later, I thought about the question. Yeah. Spicy, I like it. Okay, so, I'm curious What?
00:39:19.780 --> 00:39:28.070 Mira Brancu: Among the 13 that you wrote about, what's the one that, Either is,
00:39:28.300 --> 00:39:42.829 Mira Brancu: your favorite, or the one that's, most egregious, or most, unknown. The one that sort of stands out to you as something that, like, people maybe even react to, with surprise, or was unexpected?
00:39:43.560 --> 00:39:49.809 Mita Mallick: I think I'll say, I'll use the language, the one that still haunts me to this day, and there's a few, but it's Medusa.
00:39:50.020 --> 00:40:01.659 Mita Mallick: And it is this idea I'll never forget. I had never had anyone scream at me. Not my parents, not my brother, not my husband, I didn't tolerate that in friendships, and here I am forced to work for this person in the workplace.
00:40:01.680 --> 00:40:16.319 Mita Mallick: who publicly and privately humiliates, scream, yells. There's tantrums like a toddler. I did not have children yet at that point, but I was like, wow, this is… these are full-on tantrums. Would toss pens in a fit of rage. She did throw a Chanel shoe at a colleague.
00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:24.539 Mita Mallick: I mean, it was wild, and to this day, I know there are people listening, this is still happening in our workplaces, and how is it still acceptable?
00:40:24.570 --> 00:40:42.329 Mita Mallick: And for me, I recognize and accept that fear is a short-term driver of results. It is. Because guess what happened? I went to work scared every day working for Medusa, and because of that, I worked harder and smarter, because I thought to myself, I just need to exceed her expectations, so she just…
00:40:42.330 --> 00:40:53.909 Mita Mallick: stays away from me. But she was an equal opportunity bully. She went after everybody. It didn't matter what I did. She would find something to get upset about. And so then it's the same thing. What happens? You start to… you get exhausted.
00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:55.460 Mira Brancu: Right?
00:40:55.460 --> 00:41:09.229 Mita Mallick: You get exhausted, and it's tiring being scared. Imagine if you see a black bear in your backyard, and that feeling you get. It's that… you cannot keep up that adrenaline rush. And so then you start to…
00:41:09.700 --> 00:41:23.930 Mita Mallick: do less work, you do less great work, you start to just get under the radar, it doesn't matter, I actually don't want her to know I'm here, I don't want to be visible, and all those things start to happen. And so don't understand why leaders can't recognize that fear destroys culture in the long term.
00:41:24.070 --> 00:41:29.120 Mira Brancu: absolutely destroys culture, and how it's acceptable. And, you know, this was back in…
00:41:29.140 --> 00:41:36.140 Mita Mallick: working for a really large beauty company, which it was this, hey, Mita, if you don't want this job, there are 10 other people lined up to get.
00:41:36.910 --> 00:41:37.450 Mita Mallick: And…
00:41:37.490 --> 00:42:01.730 Mita Mallick: it's similar, I would say, likely, in jobs in Hollywood. Think of a fancy tech brand right now everyone wants to work at. Think of any time you have this cult leader. I know back in the day, I was like, oh, I want to work at WeWork, right? Like, and we see how that ended. So it's like, anytime there's, like, this cult leader, charismatic person, a mission that's gonna change the world, and it all looks…
00:42:01.730 --> 00:42:07.550 Mita Mallick: Glossy, saucy, sexy from the outside, but you actually don't know what's happening inside.
00:42:07.590 --> 00:42:10.650 Mita Mallick: And what employees' experiences are really like.
00:42:11.030 --> 00:42:17.440 Mira Brancu: That's… that's right, yeah. I remember early on, when
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:25.289 Mira Brancu: We were still training in clinical psychology, and you know, we had some students who
00:42:25.540 --> 00:42:41.300 Mira Brancu: You know, had this vision of wanting to work for, you know, the greatest researcher within, you know, who, you know, helped with this kind of condition and, you know, the best of the best, and
00:42:41.730 --> 00:42:46.770 Mira Brancu: You know, I always thought to myself, I don't know what comes along with that.
00:42:46.770 --> 00:42:47.130 Mita Mallick: Mmm.
00:42:47.130 --> 00:42:58.520 Mira Brancu: I would rather evaluate the person's personality and decide, can I work with that person? And that's how I made my decisions, right? Because I know that I can
00:42:58.650 --> 00:43:04.630 Mira Brancu: thrive doing anything if I could be supported by, you know, like, a very, sort of.
00:43:04.630 --> 00:43:04.980 Mita Mallick: Yes.
00:43:04.980 --> 00:43:09.570 Mira Brancu: supportive personality. What ended up with those students that ended up with the
00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:17.990 Mira Brancu: preeminent researcher in, right, is that, Same description that you gave.
00:43:18.080 --> 00:43:36.590 Mira Brancu: scary, sometimes traumatic experiences, yelling, you know, bullying, and, you know, some of them left the field as a result, which is such a shame. And, you know, this is kind of the impact. And you don't,
00:43:36.760 --> 00:43:44.790 Mira Brancu: as a boss who has that, you don't always realize. Like, sometimes, yes, it's purposeful, but not always. Sometimes.
00:43:45.100 --> 00:44:00.940 Mira Brancu: It's because you haven't resolved your own things in your background, and you have, like, two coping skills, and you're always resorting to the tantrum and, you know, the yelling or the throwing the shoe in order to get your way, and it often works, so it's kind of, like, reinforced.
00:44:00.940 --> 00:44:01.420 Mita Mallick: Absolutely.
00:44:01.420 --> 00:44:08.509 Mira Brancu: But this is what happens. You lose fantastic people, you lose friends constantly, you… Yes. You know, so…
00:44:08.730 --> 00:44:13.230 Mira Brancu: It has a mass… like, you… you… yeah, the trail of dead bodies is what you…
00:44:13.230 --> 00:44:15.939 Mita Mallick: Yeah, it's wild. It's wild.
00:44:16.170 --> 00:44:30.039 Mira Brancu: We're reaching an ad break, and when we come back, I would love to talk about, like, what is it that we should be all thinking about moving forward, to apply your book thoughtfully as, as bosses, right?
00:44:30.040 --> 00:44:38.889 Mira Brancu: So, you're listening to The Hard Skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Meeta Malik, author of The Devil Emails at Midnight, and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:46:22.890 --> 00:46:35.890 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to The Hard Skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Meeta Malik, author of The Devil Emails at Midnight. So, Meeta, do you think that
00:46:36.470 --> 00:46:45.100 Mira Brancu: You know, in your experience, any of these types of bosses have a harder time
00:46:46.190 --> 00:46:56.670 Mira Brancu: Seeking counseling, motivation to want counseling, or even, like, if, sorry, coaching, and then even if they seek coaching,
00:46:57.410 --> 00:47:02.050 Mira Brancu: just receiving The feedback, or being able to change and adjust.
00:47:02.560 --> 00:47:06.280 Mita Mallick: I think the biggest thing I see is when bad bosses are enabled.
00:47:06.280 --> 00:47:23.989 Mita Mallick: when the system around them, when their boss, when a board, when other stakeholders allow them to behave this way, we were just talking about Medusa, how does someone like that stay when people justify her behavior? I think that's what… that's what really happens. Listen, I think most of us…
00:47:24.060 --> 00:47:46.529 Mita Mallick: And I'm not talking about the bosses who've made the headlines, who have wreaked havoc and harm on their organizations, the bosses, they say, who don't need another executive coach. They need therapy. That's not who this book is for. It's for the rest of us, who I think, if we sit in silence and pause, we know when we've behaved badly. I really think we do. When I walk out of a meeting, something didn't feel right.
00:47:46.530 --> 00:47:49.180 Mita Mallick: I lost my temper. I was short.
00:47:49.330 --> 00:48:08.500 Mita Mallick: I didn't give a clear enough explanation. I think, at least for myself now, over the years, I'm like, I know something happened, now can I sit in the uncomfortableness and silence and think about the role I played, or do I rush off to the next thing and bury it? And that's when I'm coaching leaders, too. I think, gosh, if someone had just helped you recognize this 10 years ago.
00:48:08.500 --> 00:48:10.340 Mita Mallick: But people protected you.
00:48:10.390 --> 00:48:16.870 Mita Mallick: And you were surrounding yourself with yes people. They didn't want you to actually unlearn the behavior, for whatever reason.
00:48:17.050 --> 00:48:24.439 Mira Brancu: That's right, and I think one of the ways to do that is, like, in your example, you paid attention when someone
00:48:24.580 --> 00:48:32.480 Mira Brancu: asked you a seemingly simple question, but you read through, what does that mean, that question? What's the question behind the question, right?
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:33.110 Mita Mallick: Yes, absolutely.
00:48:33.110 --> 00:48:47.920 Mira Brancu: And just paying attention to that makes a big difference. It, I'm recalling back, this is not when I was a manager or a leader, but this was when I was a school counselor, and there was this girl that I was working with.
00:48:48.300 --> 00:48:52.740 Mira Brancu: And one day she said, you already said that with me, I don't think you're listening.
00:48:53.530 --> 00:48:54.160 Mita Mallick: Oh, wow.
00:48:54.160 --> 00:48:57.049 Mira Brancu: And I was like, He stood on…
00:48:57.050 --> 00:48:58.160 Mita Mallick: You're like, okay?
00:48:58.160 --> 00:49:00.770 Mira Brancu: Right? But, what that told me…
00:49:01.100 --> 00:49:18.630 Mira Brancu: was, I mean, I did have a tendency to, like, have, you know, kind of similar responses when I heard the same thing over and over and over again, right? And I did explain that to her, but it did make me realize that, maybe I'm not…
00:49:18.730 --> 00:49:26.110 Mira Brancu: paying enough attention or meeting her where she's at, if she feels I'm giving her pat responses.
00:49:26.110 --> 00:49:26.520 Mita Mallick: Sure.
00:49:26.520 --> 00:49:31.950 Mira Brancu: And so, I took that into my management and leadership roles, you know, and I…
00:49:32.220 --> 00:49:45.790 Mira Brancu: try to work harder at being a better listener and responding in the moment, and trying my best not to repeat myself, even though it… these things do fall under similar categories. It's hard not to, but it was great feedback for me.
00:49:46.200 --> 00:50:01.099 Mita Mallick: I love what you just brought up, because we just talked about you can self-reflect and think about what are the things you need to work on, but what you're bringing up as number two is the signs are there. Are you willing to see them and watch for them? The sign's not from yourself, but from other people. This direct comment from someone who worked for you.
00:50:01.100 --> 00:50:14.249 Mita Mallick: are you watching how people are reacting to you? Are they anxious? Are they suddenly quiet? Are you the last to know about things happening in the business? And if you actually look for… I mean, the verbals are important, clearly, in that case, but also the nonverbals.
00:50:14.640 --> 00:50:36.539 Mita Mallick: Yeah. What are people not saying, but are showing you? And the last thing I'll say is, gosh, I hope exit interviews aren't canceled. Bring them back, please. Because if they're done properly, you know, I had a case during one of my bad boss phases, I had someone leave my team, and I read the exit interview notes, and wow, she was right. I had become disengaged, I had just lost my father, was having a hard time grieving.
00:50:36.540 --> 00:50:43.399 Mita Mallick: I wasn't as present and there for her, and she really just didn't know what her career path at the company was anymore. So there it is in writing!
00:50:43.400 --> 00:50:49.960 Mita Mallick: Am I gonna read it, and absorb it, and process it, or am I just gonna try to bury it? That's the question we have to ask ourselves.
00:50:49.960 --> 00:50:53.959 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I'll add a couple thoughts about that. First.
00:50:54.540 --> 00:51:02.610 Mira Brancu: yes, exit interviews, and stay interviews, right? Like, stay interviews are…
00:51:02.860 --> 00:51:16.530 Mira Brancu: what would continue helping you feel like you can stay here, you want to stay here? Is there something missing? Is there anything… so, like, it's a great retention tool in between. And then, once people leave, keeping in mind that
00:51:16.900 --> 00:51:32.570 Mira Brancu: an exit interview is, extremely emotionally taxing on the person having to give feedback. That is… that's emotional labor, and so make it as easy as possible for people to give you feedback and take it.
00:51:32.570 --> 00:51:40.419 Mita Mallick: I'll also give everyone an idea, did this years ago at a company with the support of our general counsel. We actually called people 6 months after they left.
00:51:40.420 --> 00:51:41.150 Mira Brancu: Mmm.
00:51:41.150 --> 00:51:53.269 Mita Mallick: So interesting, right? Anytime you leave a job, there's emotion, either good or bad. But 6 months later, we found people were much more fact-based, and they actually gave really powerful insights that we had a…
00:51:53.270 --> 00:52:16.090 Mita Mallick: piece of study that we put together, went back to management, and said, actually, here are some of the real reasons people are leaving. Because too often, we dismiss the exit interview when there's also a motion from the boss. Like, if you are resigning from me and leaving me, you, whatever you share in the exit interview, I might just shove away, but six months later, I might be able to take that information and process it differently.
00:52:16.340 --> 00:52:30.719 Mira Brancu: That's right, and people have had time to detox and process through and come to terms with it, right? So, I know that we're starting to close out. What's one thing that you want every leader to walk away with from this conversation?
00:52:31.060 --> 00:52:45.310 Mita Mallick: I want everyone to look in the mirror and think about one thing they could be doing differently in a more positive way tomorrow, and show up at work, and tell someone else you're working on it. Imagine if we all went into our workplaces tomorrow and said, here's one thing I'm gonna work on about myself.
00:52:45.310 --> 00:52:57.929 Mita Mallick: And I actually asked someone to hold me accountable. We spend too much time at work not to care about each other and the work we're doing, and so I hope everyone feels inspired. Not to do 10 things to start, just one thing. Just pick one thing.
00:52:57.930 --> 00:53:16.660 Mira Brancu: I think that could make a huge, positive difference, each one of us, you know, opening up, you know, that kind of dialogue. Now, if people want to learn more about you, where can they find you? I'm opening up and showing folks who are able to watch this later, but for folks who are just listening, where can they find you?
00:53:16.660 --> 00:53:34.809 Mita Mallick: Yeah, well, my website's a great place to start, meetamallik.com. Please go check out the book, The Devil Emails at Midnight, What Good Leaders Can Learn From Bad Bosses. It's on Amazon, also Barnes & Noble is in your local independent bookstore, and I'm on LinkedIn, it's my preferred media… social media platform. I love meeting people, so feel free to DM me there.
00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:42.599 Mira Brancu: Same, same here. Okay. So, folks, What did you take away?
00:53:42.950 --> 00:53:53.250 Mira Brancu: from today, and more importantly, what's one small change? She gave you a hint about one thing that you can do, but what is one small change that you can implement this week
00:53:53.420 --> 00:53:55.800 Mira Brancu: Based on what you learned from Mita.
00:53:56.040 --> 00:54:10.390 Mira Brancu: share with us on LinkedIn, because that's where we live, right? On social media. And you could also go to talkradio.nyc to find this. So share that with us, on any of those, and so that we could share you on.
00:54:10.520 --> 00:54:21.940 Mira Brancu: The hard skills is also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Twitch, Apple, Spotify, Amazon Podcasts, everywhere that you can find a video or a podcast, that's where we are.
00:54:22.060 --> 00:54:25.450 Mira Brancu: If today's episode resonated for you.
00:54:25.650 --> 00:54:42.759 Mira Brancu: share it also with a colleague, leave a review, buy the book, totally worth it. And if you're looking for more personalized support or leadership or team coaching, you could also head to GoTowerscope.com to schedule a consultation with me.
00:54:42.870 --> 00:54:55.689 Mira Brancu: A reminder, don't forget about registering for our Strategic Leadership Resiliency Fellows Program, either the Anti-Burnout Program or Strategic Resiliency, by September 29th.
00:54:56.120 --> 00:55:01.419 Mira Brancu: September 9th is for those of you who want to get in early bird
00:55:01.690 --> 00:55:16.680 Mira Brancu: rates, and there's only 20 seats available for each of these, so you might as well go to that quickly. Get on my newsletter, or check out the information at GoTowerscope.com if you're aiming to get one of those 20 available seats.
00:55:16.940 --> 00:55:31.100 Mira Brancu: I want to thank you to talkradio.nyc for hosting. Together, we will navigate the complexities of leadership and emerge stronger on the other side. Thank you for joining me and Meeta Malik today on this journey.
00:55:31.400 --> 00:55:42.560 Mira Brancu: This is Dr. Mira Brancou signing off. Until next time, stay steady, stay present, and keep building those hard skills muscles muscles.
00:55:43.710 --> 00:55:45.170 Mira Brancu: Mita, thank you very much for.
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