If you’ve ever felt the tension between presales and sales, this episode will hit home. Whether you're in leadership, enablement, or part of a revenue team, Michelle Afshar shares real-world strategies to break silos, boost collaboration, and unlock growth.
You will walk away with:
✅ Actionable insights on how to align sales and presales for better deal velocity and higher win rates.
✅ Proven frameworks used at top companies like Darktrace, Zoom, and Palo Alto Networks.
✅ A clear understanding of how shared goals and KPIs can improve team morale—and forecasting accuracy.
This episode isn’t just a conversation—it’s a playbook for any company looking to go from functional cooperation to strategic collaboration between sales and presales.
Michelle Afshar is a dynamic sales enablement leader whose career spans innovation giants Darktrace, Zoom, and Palo Alto Networks. As Global Head of Enablement at Darktrace and playing key GTM roles at Zoom and Palo Alto Networks, Michelle has a track record of transforming how presales and sales work together.
On the podcast, she’ll take us behind the scenes of:
➡️ Overcoming the most common friction points between presales and sales teams
➡️ Implementing joint pipeline ownership, technical qualification, and shared KPIs for seamless collaboration
➡️ The measurable impact these strategies have on win rates, forecast accuracy, and customer experience
Tune in to discover how enabling presales–sales alignment isn’t just a process improvement—it’s a strategic advantage that drives growth, efficiency, and trust.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mafshar/
#presales #sales #SalesManagement #SalesEnablement #SEAMlessSales
Tune in for this informative conversation at TalkRadio.nyc
Art Fromm opens episode 4 of Making SEAMless Sales with reflections on past guests, including insights from Candy Gray about the importance of qualification and fit in long-term sales relationships. He introduces this week’s guest, Michelle Afshar of Dark Trace, to discuss how pre-sales and sales teams can break out of silos and collaborate more effectively to drive client success. Art also previews his upcoming chapter The Art of Persuasion in Business, Life, and the Universe, tying in how understanding client motivations, reducing risk perception, and shifting from selling to enabling buyers leads to stronger relationships, higher margins, and long-term revenue growth.
Michelle Afshar, global head of enablement at Darktrace, shared her unconventional journey from aspiring surgeon to leading high-performing sales and pre-sales teams, highlighting how investing in technical teams delivers outsized returns. She emphasized that true success comes when sales and pre-sales move beyond a transactional “handoff” to form intentional partnerships built on alignment, storytelling, and mutual trust, which boosts revenue and customer confidence. Both she and host Art Fromm underscored that when these teams operate as one entity—100% and 100%—they reduce friction, elevate the client experience, and drive stronger long-term business outcomes.
Michelle Afshar explained that traditional siloed training has long kept sales and pre-sales apart, but today’s buyers—armed with research and aided by AI—demand a unified, trust-building experience. She outlined her blended enablement approach: align both groups on shared purpose, train them separately on role-specific skills, then bring them together for practice, role play, and storytelling to foster true partnership. The benefits ripple across every level—sellers gain confidence, SEs feel valued and motivated, customers see a seamless and trustworthy team, and companies unlock higher win rates; Michelle’s vision for the future is turning SEs into strategic advisors and reps into more technical sellers, creating a winning formula for modern sales success.
In the closing segment, Art Fromm addressed audience questions about sales playbooks and alignment, stressing that while marketing and enablement usually create the playbook, sales must be involved for true adoption and consistency. He reinforced that focusing on the buyer’s journey, fostering shared ownership between sales and pre-sales, and involving SEs earlier in the process eliminates silos, shortens sales cycles, improves win rates, and builds client trust. Wrapping up, Art previewed next week’s episode on Agentic AI with Anil Shah, reminded listeners of resources at TeamSalesDevelopment.com, and thanked Michelle Afshar for her impactful insights on creating seamless sales partnerships.
00:00:47.570 --> 00:00:55.400 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the episode of Making Seamless Sales. My name is Art Fromm.
00:00:55.710 --> 00:00:58.489 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And this is episode 4.
00:00:58.620 --> 00:01:02.689 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Coming to you live from Morris, Pennsylvania, just north of Pittsburgh.
00:01:02.770 --> 00:01:18.729 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I've mentioned that on the shows previously, and I mentioned that we actually have a flying saucer in our little tiny borough of Mars, and somebody said, do you really have a flying saucer there? I said, yeah, we do. And I think they used to move it around a little bit, but the little…
00:01:18.910 --> 00:01:26.019 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: town is so small, it's probably pretty obvious where it was. Anyway, it's in a fixed location now. And, by the way.
00:01:26.150 --> 00:01:36.400 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We are officially, and I had to look this up, because I had heard this, and I was just curious. We are officially the only town in the United States that's named Mars.
00:01:36.790 --> 00:01:48.900 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: There are a couple of other locations that have used the Mars name, but they don't qualify as cities or towns. So, for example, there's a Mars California, but it's an unincorporated community.
00:01:49.100 --> 00:02:03.369 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: There's a Mars, Texas, and a Mars, Nebraska, but they're both ghost towns, and there's other locations that have Mars in the name, but we are one of the only… we are the only one that's actually named Mars, and I'll tell you why that's important in just a minute as well.
00:02:03.460 --> 00:02:11.249 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, thanks everybody that's joining. If you're on one of the social medias, please drop a note in the chat.
00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:13.569 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Where you're calling from.
00:02:14.020 --> 00:02:19.030 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And my producer, Jesse, will let me know where you're calling from, so I can…
00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:25.379 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: give you a shout out, so we appreciate that. Thank you, everybody, very much for that. And also.
00:02:25.610 --> 00:02:34.550 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: If you're watching on the recording, thank you for doing that, and then regardless, please like, share, and comment, and subscribe.
00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:43.429 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: In whatever channel you're in, because we're in a whole bunch of different channels. Last week was a great show, episode 3 with Candy Gray.
00:02:43.450 --> 00:02:54.020 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Who is in the unique position of being involved with all aspects of the sale, from initial qualification and implementation all the way through to expansion.
00:02:54.020 --> 00:03:07.969 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: in her role as National Account Manager. So, she was talking about the way that she gets engaged all the way from the beginning through the end, and then renewals. And we did talk a little bit about… I'd ask a question about
00:03:08.420 --> 00:03:09.390 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: …
00:03:09.540 --> 00:03:19.289 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Whether or not she would, you know, what it's like to be in a position where you're setting yourself up for this long-term relationship and everything, and if she would ever
00:03:19.290 --> 00:03:29.890 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: walk away from it. And I, afterward, I talked with her about that, because her answer was no, I would never walk away. And she was answering it, which is right, is that she will not walk away from somebody she's working with.
00:03:29.890 --> 00:03:40.100 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And where I was trying to go with it a little bit was, what about when you get a prospect that's not a good fit? And she said, oh yeah, for sure. She goes, definitely, qualification means that
00:03:40.310 --> 00:03:42.279 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: If there's not a good fit.
00:03:42.370 --> 00:04:00.320 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: for me, as a national account manager, she has others in her company that might be a better fit, it might be a different division or whatever, or she said, you know, I'll just let them go to the competitor and keep the competitor busy while I work on what I need to work on. So, I just wanted to clear that up, is that,
00:04:00.320 --> 00:04:04.709 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: maybe we were on a little bit different frequencies, I think I wasn't quite clear with my question.
00:04:04.930 --> 00:04:18.759 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: For today's show, which we're gonna get to after the first break, is, with Michelle Afshar. She's the head of global enablement for Dark Trace, which is an active AI security platform.
00:04:18.940 --> 00:04:28.400 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Michelle just delivered an amazing sales kickoff in Las Vegas for pre-sales sales and post-team sales members, and
00:04:28.630 --> 00:04:41.440 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I had the privilege of delivering a couple of afternoon sessions, one for pre-sales team, and one for the pre-sales and sales combined, which is why I wanted to get Michelle on the show, because she's all about
00:04:41.440 --> 00:04:50.809 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: helping pre-sales and sales work together, and has ideas about what that evolution might look like, and things like that. And Michelle has extensive experience helping
00:04:50.810 --> 00:04:55.810 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: sales and pre-sales in her other role. So we'll… we'll get to that after the first break.
00:04:55.810 --> 00:05:13.500 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: A couple other quick announcements. If you haven't already, please check out the events on the Teamsalesdevelopment.com page. That's where I have all of my events, previous webinars, all kinds of resources there. I just offer that for all of you to check that out.
00:05:13.500 --> 00:05:28.050 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: learn more about different things. There's the show page on there, so you could take a look at all the shows that have been already broadcast, for which you can watch the replays, and then the shows that are coming up as well. Also, I wanted to mention
00:05:28.350 --> 00:05:46.070 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: that one of the things that's on there is that there's a new compilation book called Business, Life, and the Universe, and I know those of you listening can't see this, but everybody else on the livestream and the video streams and the recording can see this book. It's Business, Life, and the Universe. It's a compilation book
00:05:46.070 --> 00:06:04.460 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: that is made up of a bunch of different authors. I'm gonna be in book 15 that's coming out, and it's available for presale right now. Now, why I'm mentioning this, and this goes back to my comment about Mars, it's so cool, because each book has got a very famous person in it that does the foreword.
00:06:04.460 --> 00:06:16.950 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And in my particular book, it's gonna be John Gray, which is Men Are From Mars and Women Are From Venus. And I knew it was meant to be when I had the opportunity to get in this book with him.
00:06:16.950 --> 00:06:28.580 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Because I'm obviously a man from Mars. So, I got a little bit of a tie-in there. But my chapter is gonna be, entitled, and I think I'm chapter 2 in the book.
00:06:28.580 --> 00:06:44.179 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: it's gonna be called… it is called The Art of Persuasion, and the idea is, as we've talked about on some of the other shows, even though we're talking often about big business-to-business sales, and enterprise-type sales, and everything like that.
00:06:44.180 --> 00:06:53.089 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: This also, a lot of these concepts apply to just persuasion and influence, and so the chapter that I wrote for this book is all about
00:06:53.410 --> 00:07:03.769 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: how we can, in a similar way to the way that John Gray talks about men being from Mars and women from Venus, meaning we need to understand each other and
00:07:03.770 --> 00:07:17.139 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: find out how to communicate together properly. Same thing with sales or persuasion. It's about learning with the other person, how they're wired, what is it that their motives are, their motivations, what is it that…
00:07:17.140 --> 00:07:42.040 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We want it to be all about them, so how can we make that happen? And so my chapter is about, in any type of persuasion, what are ways we can take a look at things like social style or risk sensitivity, which really comes into play a lot with somebody deciding to move forward or not, because if there's too much of a perception of risk, they're not going to want to move forward, whether it's going to a movie or going to
00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:43.370 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: restaurant.
00:07:43.370 --> 00:07:52.039 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: or whether it's, you know, buying a multi-million dollar information management system or security system, like what Michelle offers. So.
00:07:52.080 --> 00:08:07.570 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: please check that out. It'd be great if you could just help us out with the presale and order that. I think it's supposed to be coming out, sometime in September, and that'll be a fun little addition to… to what I'm trying to do to give back and share some ideas and things like that.
00:08:08.390 --> 00:08:22.579 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, a couple of other things that I just wanted to cover really quickly is, when it comes to the idea of, our whole series, we're now on, you know, this is episode
00:08:22.880 --> 00:08:42.660 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, what has happened is we've built from some basic concepts into more intense concepts. Today, we're going to talk a lot about pre-sales and sales working together. Next week, my guest is really going to dive into more of the CRM system, and also
00:08:42.830 --> 00:08:59.879 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Agentic AI, so this means things like the way that AI… we all have heard AI, and we've maybe used ChatGPT or things like that, but it's going to be AI and digging into the way that that can help with running a sales process, can help with
00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:09.629 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Allowing you to reach your customers and things like that, and then record all of that information so that we have all of that at our disposal.
00:09:09.640 --> 00:09:22.599 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, when we, move forward with this, of course, what we'll wind up doing is adding on to it, and today we'll wind up with talking with Michelle about the way that those can work together better.
00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:38.429 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I also want to encourage everybody, we've got the segment at the end where you can ask some questions. I have a couple questions that came in from some viewers about a couple of situations involving sales and pre-sales, so we'll get to that at the end of the session as well.
00:09:38.790 --> 00:09:49.989 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Now, one of the big themes of this show, Making Seamless sales, is the idea of the SE and the AM, or pre-sales and sales, working together better.
00:09:50.060 --> 00:09:59.790 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And what I've found when it comes to doing that is that very often, these teams are in different silos. So.
00:09:59.910 --> 00:10:03.139 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Whether it's a very large corporation or
00:10:03.230 --> 00:10:20.690 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: relatively small one. There's just been a history of this, where sales and pre-sales grew up a little bit separately. I talked about that somewhat on my first show. I started as what was called an application engineer, because back in the day, you needed somebody who was very technically savvy.
00:10:20.690 --> 00:10:26.150 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: to be able to run the solution. Like, it was very complicated.
00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:40.289 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: That required a lot of programming and other things like that. The salesperson, there's no way they could have figured that out. So, as an application engineer, we were there to show the technology. The salesperson was there as the front end to do all the rest of it.
00:10:40.540 --> 00:10:44.749 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: As time has evolved, and as the business world has changed.
00:10:44.770 --> 00:10:55.189 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We're moving more from really, really complex systems, of which there's many still, but the way that they're implemented is a little bit easier, and now what's happening is
00:10:55.190 --> 00:11:12.709 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The focus is on more implementation. There's what's called SaaS, if anybody's familiar with that. It's… if you're not familiar, it's sales or software as a service. It's a variety of different things, infrastructure as a service, security as a service, and the idea is you
00:11:12.850 --> 00:11:23.280 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Subscribe to it, so the customer is subscribing to it, and therefore, when we do what used to be a sale of a tangible item or a software solution.
00:11:23.280 --> 00:11:34.359 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Now, it's more of getting somebody signed up, and they begin to consume it, and as they consume it, now you're generating your revenue. Now, why is that important? Because
00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:36.860 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Before, a lot of the sales were
00:11:36.860 --> 00:11:40.830 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: A once and done, so you work together, sales engineer.
00:11:41.070 --> 00:11:58.839 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: account manager, you get the sale done, the account manager goes on to the next deal. Well, now it's more about the continuum all the way through client success. And that's one of the reasons why it's so important that now there's a focus on go-to-market, meaning automated systems
00:11:59.040 --> 00:12:13.609 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: sales engineers that are helping with doing demos, or answering requests for proposals, or helping clients see things a different way that maybe they hadn't seen things before. And then working that all the way through to the point where
00:12:13.660 --> 00:12:23.560 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you've now got a customer that's not just buying something, but they're signing up and committing to consume. So our goal shifts from selling
00:12:23.560 --> 00:12:39.109 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: to enabling the buyer. The goal shifts from trying to push a solution and force the sale to getting them to want it and to desire it. And that's why it's so important now, it's not such separate functions and silos, it's more of…
00:12:39.160 --> 00:12:53.460 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Getting these roles interdependent, and so that it looks like one entity, and therefore the friction goes down for sales, the success goes up for the client, and now when it comes to renewals and expansion.
00:12:53.460 --> 00:12:59.860 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: It's more likely that they trust the people they're working with, and we can have those longer-term relationships.
00:12:59.920 --> 00:13:03.370 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, that's what we're going to talk a little bit with Michelle about.
00:13:03.870 --> 00:13:15.369 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: After the break, and explore ways that she has seen other companies that she's worked at with how that works, what are the ways that they can work together, and to really make that
00:13:15.370 --> 00:13:29.669 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: from the beginning all the way through to enablement of the buyer, so that that can be more successful. And that will mean more business, more revenue, higher margins, and all that when we're focused on client success.
00:13:29.980 --> 00:13:40.389 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, we'll come back here in a little bit for a commercial break. When we come back, we're gonna be talking with Michelle Afshar, so get your,
00:13:40.540 --> 00:13:50.790 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you know, get your notepad ready so you can take down some great notes on what Michelle's gonna share for how she helped the company she's worked with to do that. We'll see you back in a few minutes.
00:16:04.680 --> 00:16:12.720 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Alright, everybody, welcome back from the break, and I would like to introduce to you Michelle Afshar.
00:16:13.570 --> 00:16:15.780 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, hello, Michelle.
00:16:15.970 --> 00:16:19.090 Michelle Afshar: Hi, R. Thank you so much for having me here.
00:16:19.090 --> 00:16:37.270 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Absolutely, so glad you're here. So, everybody, Michelle is a dynamic leader in sales enablement whose career spans major innovation hubs, such as Dark Trace, Zoom, and she's been at Palo Alto Networks. As the global head of enablement at Darktrace, Michelle
00:16:37.270 --> 00:16:44.540 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: has a track record of transforming how pre-sales and sales works together. I know she loves learning.
00:16:44.540 --> 00:16:51.719 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: technology and helping people, which is the perfect combination for sales enablement. I think I've heard you say that before, Michelle.
00:16:51.720 --> 00:17:03.800 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And so, again, everybody, welcome, Michelle, to the show. And to get us started, Michelle, can you just briefly share how you got to where you're at, and a little bit about your experience in sales enablement?
00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:21.810 Michelle Afshar: Probably for a whole other episode, Art, but I actually thought I was gonna first be a surgeon, like a heart surgeon, and that didn't work out. And then I sold cars to pay for college, and I ended up selling a car to a CEO who gave me my first job in sales, and so…
00:17:21.810 --> 00:17:39.459 Michelle Afshar: 25 years ago, I was an SDR, and today I get to lead and scale and build really high-performing teams. So, it's been a crazy path to get there, but I do really love working with all the different teams that we get to enable at some of these amazing companies.
00:17:39.460 --> 00:17:44.240 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, you never know where your, you know, interactions are gonna lead, right?
00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:45.140 Michelle Afshar: Exactly.
00:17:45.140 --> 00:18:00.540 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: That's really cool. So, you definitely have an appreciation for the pre-sales function and the importance of including them in as part of the team. Where does that passion come from?
00:18:01.750 --> 00:18:06.850 Michelle Afshar: I think in enablement, the highest form of, like.
00:18:07.170 --> 00:18:14.030 Michelle Afshar: I did a good job, is when the technical teams come to you and say, that was really good trading.
00:18:14.140 --> 00:18:39.089 Michelle Afshar: I say that because they tend to be… they have a really high caliber for what they consider to be good. I think if you know most pre-sales engineers, or you know more technical type of people, they are very smart, they are very capable, they can understand complex things very quickly. And so, I'm just a, like, bubbly sales girl with my background, and when I leave a training and I get that kind of remark from that
00:18:39.090 --> 00:18:42.630 Michelle Afshar: team, I always feel like I might have really made an impact.
00:18:42.810 --> 00:18:49.620 Michelle Afshar: Over the years, what I've seen is that those teams tend to be the ones that are underdeveloped, that they kind of just get
00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:54.100 Michelle Afshar: Cast over, because they are capable, and they are really smart groups.
00:18:54.140 --> 00:19:12.729 Michelle Afshar: Where I've seen the needle move the most, and this is what I saw at Palito Networks, this is what I saw at Zoom, was when we invested in our solution engineering teams, when we invested in our technical teams, the return was so much greater than when we were doing some of the other programs with some of the other groups. And so.
00:19:12.730 --> 00:19:14.980 Michelle Afshar: My passion really came from
00:19:14.980 --> 00:19:26.609 Michelle Afshar: It being a challenging thing to be good at, and it came from seeing the amazing return you can get when you invest in this group of people that tends to be overlooked.
00:19:27.300 --> 00:19:30.350 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, when I was…
00:19:30.420 --> 00:19:49.590 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: initially, I was a SE, you know, when I got into sales roles, I was an SE-type role, and I was running a team of SEs, and I had been doing some sales and things like that at other companies, and the particular company I was at just sort of what we call flea dip the SEs into the sales training, so it was like.
00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:59.419 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: put them in with the salespeople, and then… but they'd come out going, well, why do I really care about all that stuff? And not only that, there's a lot that I need that I don't have.
00:19:59.460 --> 00:20:16.109 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And then from the sales perspective, I don't think that helps either, because now they're not getting somebody that's fully developed in the things that they really need. So, you know, there's been studies that have shown that just getting sales and pre-sales to work together better, and it's not just
00:20:16.110 --> 00:20:24.379 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: pre-sales coming over to sales, it's sales coming over pre-sales. It's that true blend and the combination in the middle. It shows that
00:20:24.660 --> 00:20:39.519 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Teams that are doing that, as you said, are, like, 37% higher in sales revenue and win rate and things like that, just because they're coming together. So you're spot on in terms of that investment is paying off for everybody, not just….
00:20:39.520 --> 00:20:56.599 Michelle Afshar: I think the major challenges most companies face is that alignment. And that alignment tends to be what people plan for, is like, if I train the sellers in room A, and I train the technical teams in room B, somebody's gonna figure it out.
00:20:56.600 --> 00:20:57.370 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Hmm?
00:20:57.570 --> 00:21:20.730 Michelle Afshar: it's me, like, it's my job to figure it out, and to be really prescriptive, and to be very thoughtful in how I want the two teams to interact. And so, I think, the teams that are more successful are not just seeing the SEs as, like, these demo machines, and the sellers as, like, the charming people that take you out to go golf and eat a steak, right? They're designing this intentional.
00:21:21.090 --> 00:21:29.169 Michelle Afshar: Relationship and alignment between the two teams, and then that's why you see so much success for the teams that get it and do it and do it right.
00:21:29.270 --> 00:21:39.829 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: When you've seen it not go right, what are some of the symptoms of that? You know, what are some of the challenges or negative impact when they're not aligned that you've seen?
00:21:39.830 --> 00:21:54.149 Michelle Afshar: So if I break it up, the challenges for the seller are, they tend to get frustrated. They're confused. Like, what's my job? What is the SE supposed to do? They're dropping the ball. Maybe their deals are gonna stall.
00:21:54.410 --> 00:22:02.449 Michelle Afshar: there's a lot of confusion of, like, who should do what and who owns what, I think, from a selling perspective. And then if you think about it from the pre-sales.
00:22:02.510 --> 00:22:03.520 Michelle Afshar: role.
00:22:03.520 --> 00:22:25.569 Michelle Afshar: there's confusion, or there's challenges, and like, I'm not valued. Like, I'm just here because I'm the brains. Like, I… and you get burnt out. You get tired of being the savior of the deal, and doing all the work, and, like, really proving value to the customer, and you kind of start to feel undervalued in a relationship which truly does value you, and should value you.
00:22:25.570 --> 00:22:28.620 Michelle Afshar: And then I think for the customer, the prospect.
00:22:28.620 --> 00:22:50.010 Michelle Afshar: they're just like, what's going on? Like, you don't understand my business, and you want me to trust you, and you want me to spend all this money, and these two people don't talk to each other. So, I think when you look at the challenges, like, there's confusion, there's a lack of understanding of who should do what, and that just makes a customer and a prospect
00:22:50.010 --> 00:22:58.339 Michelle Afshar: inherently not trust you, because if you don't have it together as a team, why would I want to continue, and why would I want to do business with you? So.
00:22:58.590 --> 00:23:13.389 Michelle Afshar: Like, it sounds so simple to just make those two teams get along, but it does take a lot of work, to get the two to work, like, hand-in-hand and be, like, the seamless group that should work together.
00:23:13.390 --> 00:23:19.160 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Right, yeah, and, studies have shown, too, that the amount of time that
00:23:19.710 --> 00:23:24.539 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We get human interaction with a client is continuing to decrease because
00:23:24.580 --> 00:23:34.849 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Everybody's doing self, you know, exploration, and they're finding stuff out on the internet, and again, with some of these AI bots and things, they can do a lot more research, so…
00:23:34.850 --> 00:23:47.799 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the time in front of the client is reduced down a lot, and therefore, that's premium time that we don't… we can't afford any missteps in that. It's got to be sharp and quick, and we also know that
00:23:48.110 --> 00:24:06.289 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: pre-sales, typically, SEs come with inherent trust, sales doesn't, so the ability to move together like that can help remove that, because otherwise, you're right, the whole… the whole experience isn't going to be good for the customer, and it's got too much friction internally as well for the sales team.
00:24:06.370 --> 00:24:25.579 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, given that, and that you've seen that, and this has been a theme throughout your whole career, is what types of things have you done in Dark Trace or previous roles to help bring this together so that it is working more as a team, and the benefits that come from that?
00:24:25.850 --> 00:24:30.230 Michelle Afshar: So, couple things I think that are… maybe…
00:24:30.410 --> 00:24:35.740 Michelle Afshar: Just fundamentals, but they really help in bringing these two teams together.
00:24:35.770 --> 00:24:51.009 Michelle Afshar: is you don't have to have a 300-page playbook, but you should have some kind of way that you want these two teams to interact. So, you might be a smaller company, or you might be a massive, you know, billions of dollars organization, but if
00:24:51.010 --> 00:25:05.360 Michelle Afshar: Someone can put together a thoughtful way, an intentional way, that you want your customers to experience this selling process from a seller through the technical kind of value, showing us what the product does.
00:25:05.560 --> 00:25:10.690 Michelle Afshar: and you can put that on paper. What you can do is build this joint plan.
00:25:11.430 --> 00:25:20.829 Michelle Afshar: I think that we use this term a lot in our, you know, we use this in the training we've done together, is that there's this concept of a handoff, and that implies
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:24.370 Michelle Afshar: finally do what I need to do, and then I gotta flip it over to you.
00:25:24.740 --> 00:25:25.790 Michelle Afshar: I think that that's…
00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:35.790 Michelle Afshar: probably not the best type of relationship to have, so a lot of the times, I try to get people to move from a concept of a handoff to a concept of a partnership.
00:25:35.940 --> 00:25:40.270 Michelle Afshar: If I am a rep, and I see my SE as my partner.
00:25:40.460 --> 00:25:44.189 Michelle Afshar: That's very different than the person I hand off something to.
00:25:44.360 --> 00:26:04.360 Michelle Afshar: And so, those are the types of facilitated workshops, active role plays that I like to build. Because I think if you can structure them less around this, like, very transactional, you do this and you do this, and you teach them how to become partners, I think you can foster really great relationships.
00:26:04.740 --> 00:26:09.800 Michelle Afshar: The other thing is, … Sellers are naturally…
00:26:10.080 --> 00:26:26.519 Michelle Afshar: more… well, you said, like, they're not as trustworthy, but maybe they're a little bit more charming, right? But they're… they need to tell a story. What I think the SCs are really good at is telling a story, but they might not necessarily be as charming sometimes, because they are so smart, and they're so technical.
00:26:26.970 --> 00:26:32.440 Michelle Afshar: One thing I think that brings these two teams together is storytelling. Now.
00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:48.549 Michelle Afshar: The sessions should be run differently for the two types of roles. But when I think about, like, a foundation, when I think about a shared skill, when I think about any solid duo that I've ever worked with of a really rock star SE and a really, really amazing rep.
00:26:48.600 --> 00:26:53.639 Michelle Afshar: They know the story that they want to tell, they know how they show up as partners.
00:26:53.640 --> 00:27:10.060 Michelle Afshar: they practice it, they're intentional with it. So for me, it's like, how do I create this environment where they can practice, they tell that story that they have that's unique to them, and then, like, give them a chance to really practice it together so they can get good at it.
00:27:10.600 --> 00:27:23.929 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, I mean, it reminds me, speaking of golf and stuff like that, I mean, it's with your golf clubs in the background, it's like any, you know, you could use a sports show or something like that. You have maybe one main commentator, and then you have other people that come in.
00:27:23.930 --> 00:27:33.319 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: with the color and all that, but it's just, like, one big experience, and it's so much richer, and everybody's on the same page. I heard somebody one time say.
00:27:33.320 --> 00:27:52.730 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you know, what do you think the percentage of the ownership of the salesperson is, and what's the percentage of the ownership of the SE or the pre-sales, when it involves sales? And somebody goes, oh, well, it's probably about 50-50, but since the sales has a little more say, maybe they're 51% and the SE's 49%,
00:27:52.730 --> 00:28:06.799 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: And I don't think so, and what you're saying is it's really, like, 100% and 100%. I mean, there's not a division of labor, it's an interdependency that requires everybody to look like one entity. In fact, the
00:28:06.800 --> 00:28:24.499 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the segment at the end of this where a couple people wrote in, this is part of that theme, is it just comes off very unorganized for the customer, and then a lot of frustration internally. So, whereas sales doesn't have inherent trust.
00:28:24.540 --> 00:28:36.149 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: because of, you know, whatever, this allows that trust to be built, and at the same time, because the SE does have inherent trust, we don't want them to lose it. So I think what you're saying
00:28:36.150 --> 00:28:50.449 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: helps with strengthening both, and they can work off. And you know what? We need different… so, we need different personalities. We need the technical, and we need the business, we need the facts, and we need the fun, and blending those together can make for a great combination.
00:28:50.550 --> 00:28:51.710 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Awesome.
00:28:52.040 --> 00:29:06.179 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I know also, and we're coming up to commercial here, but real quick, so what… is there something that you wish that you would have learned or done sooner, that you found out later on, that it's like, oh gosh, I wish I would have been….
00:29:06.560 --> 00:29:11.409 Michelle Afshar: I wish I wouldn't have been scared of the technical teams. They're actually very friendly, like, it's…
00:29:11.410 --> 00:29:28.959 Michelle Afshar: it sounds scary, and I know it can be very intimidating, but I also find it to be very rewarding. So it's kind of like any new thing for most people. It's like, just get in there, get to know that audience, get to know what's important to them, and then just go do it. And you'll find they tend to be a very welcoming.
00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:32.960 Michelle Afshar: a great group to work with. I wish I had done it sooner.
00:29:33.370 --> 00:29:51.400 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: There you go. Yeah, and I think it's vice versa, too, where sometimes it seems like sales might be too intimidating for pre-sales or SEs, but when you, like you said, when it's a partnership, the whole goal is to figure out how to work things together, so that takes a lot of the pressure off, because you have a common goal.
00:29:51.400 --> 00:30:03.169 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Instead of trying to figure out, you know, what each is doing. Awesome. Well, we'll continue after the break, and we'll get into a little bit more details here with Michelle. So, stay tuned, everybody, as we start to think about
00:30:03.170 --> 00:30:14.719 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: what it is that sales and pre-sales can do working together, and some of the benefits that have come from that, and also your vision of where you see this going. So we'll be back after a short break here.
00:32:22.660 --> 00:32:24.899 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Alright, welcome back, everybody.
00:32:25.050 --> 00:32:30.169 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We're talking with Michelle Afshar from Dark Trace Global Enablement.
00:32:30.370 --> 00:32:38.079 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: responsibilities, and we're talking about the way that Michelle helps the team feel like a team.
00:32:38.290 --> 00:32:53.449 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: from pre-sales to sales, and I would even say extending into post-sales as well, because I saw some of that in action as we were working together, where that can continue the customer's journey, the client's journey. So why… what do you think…
00:32:53.570 --> 00:32:56.109 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: What do you think are some reasons, maybe, that…
00:32:56.270 --> 00:33:01.580 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: It isn't more natural that pre-sales and sales would just be working together.
00:33:03.160 --> 00:33:04.590 Michelle Afshar: I think the…
00:33:04.830 --> 00:33:17.940 Michelle Afshar: kind of older school thought of how people should learn to do their jobs has been very siloed. I think if I even think back to a decade ago, when I first started enablement, you didn't have, like.
00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:29.599 Michelle Afshar: these playbooks that were across the teams. So I think learning has typically been done, like, I train my peers, I know what I need to do, I just do my job really well.
00:33:29.910 --> 00:33:35.690 Michelle Afshar: So, the silos are created because also, like, what people need to do. There's different outcomes for each of the roles.
00:33:36.820 --> 00:33:48.909 Michelle Afshar: I think the world we're moving into, I think with AI, I think with people doing their own research, I think with people coming to deals, or coming to these teams with their own perspective.
00:33:48.910 --> 00:34:13.900 Michelle Afshar: means that our roles have to change, and we have to be far more collaborative as teams when we show up. So, it's a very, like, old-school mentality, and the world buying, selling, being, like, doing demos, everything has changed. And in this modern world, there really isn't a silo. Like, you're showing up as one team, one message, like, one voice that makes sense and is gonna build that trust with
00:34:13.900 --> 00:34:14.800 Michelle Afshar: your customer.
00:34:15.909 --> 00:34:25.780 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yes, and I think, I mean, there is a lot conspiring against teams working together better, and for one thing, it's that usually it's two different
00:34:25.980 --> 00:34:45.329 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: organizations, and they often don't come together except for at a very high level, so it relies on everybody else in between. So anybody that's listening that has, you know, those silos, that's one thing, is that at the management level, is to make sure that you are doing everything possible to cross-pollinate and
00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:55.940 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: think of ways you can work together instead of it not, you know, only coming together at the very top. And I think that the other thing is that when it comes to the way that
00:34:56.060 --> 00:35:03.679 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: resources are allocated. Sometimes that creates a lot of friction in the process, too.
00:35:03.680 --> 00:35:23.310 Michelle Afshar: different, they're paid different, they're regarded different, right? Like, these are two very… it's apple and orange, like, at its core. These are two totally different groups of people who have to work together. So, I… like, there's so many reasons why it makes sense that there is an alignment every time.
00:35:25.110 --> 00:35:30.530 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, what… when… when you have, been able to do some of these things, and… and…
00:35:30.770 --> 00:35:37.370 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: If you can get into maybe a little bit of what… what would be some of the philosophies, or the ways even…
00:35:37.420 --> 00:35:52.799 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you would try to train them. For example, a full-blown thing for sales and maybe a lighter version of the same thing for pre-sales, and then also having them together, doing some things together in your enablement sessions, where
00:35:52.870 --> 00:35:57.040 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: You just break those barriers down by the fact that they're all in the same room together.
00:35:58.020 --> 00:36:01.660 Michelle Afshar: So I'm a little bit of a renegade, and I…
00:36:01.900 --> 00:36:09.740 Michelle Afshar: I don't know if I… I do things a little different. If you know me, you know I can be a little wild and crazy when it comes to learning.
00:36:10.340 --> 00:36:28.680 Michelle Afshar: we put people together in blended roles when it's really around awareness? Like, if I need people, like, if I need them to buy into something, if I need them to hear something for the first time, if I need them to understand where we're going, I think everyone should be in the same room and hear the same message and rally behind the purpose.
00:36:28.890 --> 00:36:46.959 Michelle Afshar: I actually think training should be done differently. So, if it's a new concept, my material for the sellers is so different than what I need it to be for the technical team, and I start there. Like, you should have separate journeys for these two teams.
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:52.930 Michelle Afshar: You should bring them together in the application and in the practice. And I think a lot of teams
00:36:52.930 --> 00:37:08.329 Michelle Afshar: do what's easy, and I've done it before, and I haven't had the resource, or I've been, like, a one-woman show, and I've had to just do it all together. You put everybody in the same room, in the same training, and you make… put them in a breakout, and you just pray that it works, and they figure it out on their own.
00:37:08.330 --> 00:37:13.190 Michelle Afshar: But I think the optimal thing is Get everybody bought in!
00:37:13.720 --> 00:37:30.670 Michelle Afshar: Take them through what they need to know for their specific roles, and then let them come together, give them the chance to practice, not in front of a customer, I hate practice in front of a customer, like, go role play, go do the activity, go take a second and figure out how you're gonna do this together.
00:37:30.850 --> 00:37:37.760 Michelle Afshar: And then, like, give them a chance to digest it and put it into their day-to-day and what they need to do in their roles.
00:37:38.630 --> 00:37:52.339 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, absolutely. And I… and it goes both ways, right? So, the sales learns a little bit of the awareness part of what SEs are doing, and the SEs learn a little bit of awareness of what sales is doing, because you have to have that overlap.
00:37:52.550 --> 00:38:12.319 Michelle Afshar: And you'll find, like, the teams, like, I'll make, all the training that I've ever made at any company, I make available for both. There are… there are SEs who want to sharpen their selling skills, and they'll show up. And they're some of the best students in that sales class, right? They're in that cohort, they're raising their hands, they're super engaged.
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:34.859 Michelle Afshar: And vice versa. Sometimes I have these more junior reps who have this thirst for technical knowledge, and they're signing up, they want to be more like an SE one day. They want to get the certifications, they want to be this trusted advisor. So, giving people, you know, because they're different, that doesn't mean that you have to stop people also from giving them access. Like, there… you will be surprised
00:38:34.860 --> 00:38:40.560 Michelle Afshar: By the amount of people who will enjoy getting access to the others' curriculum and training, too.
00:38:40.740 --> 00:38:59.289 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, and in fact, some of the most successful SEs or AEs came from the other role, because they lived it, they saw it, they understand what it is, they have the empathy for what that's all about, and I love it when that happens, because you just have a more well-rounded team, and then they could be examples to others as well.
00:38:59.410 --> 00:39:18.449 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So what… what benefits have you seen? And I guess there's a bunch of different buckets here, like, what are the benefits when this happens for SEs? What are the benefits for sales? What about you as enablement, your company, the client? What are some of those benefits for those kind of buckets?
00:39:18.670 --> 00:39:43.060 Michelle Afshar: So, for the sellers, the benefit is confidence, and nothing is more successful than a confident seller. And so, when you have this partnership, when they know their right hand is there with them, they know the story, they know how they're gonna work together, they are… they walk into that room, and they don't feel like I'm just the… I'm the face, I'm the beauty, and the brains is coming next to me, right? They feel confident.
00:39:43.060 --> 00:39:51.500 Michelle Afshar: your customer's gonna feel the confidence, that builds trust. You become to be, like, this differentiated team because of that leader, that…
00:39:51.500 --> 00:39:53.990 Michelle Afshar: Seller has that confidence in them.
00:39:54.030 --> 00:39:56.040 Michelle Afshar: I think for the SE,
00:39:57.120 --> 00:40:07.219 Michelle Afshar: they're motivated differently. So when there is this alignment, they tend to be, like, less cranky. That's probably the nicest way I could put it on a live show.
00:40:07.220 --> 00:40:23.379 Michelle Afshar: But a happy SE, a purpose-driven, fulfilled technical resource, you can't stop them from working. You can't stop them from wanting to go to talk to every customer and prospect in the world, right? So, like, a fulfilled.
00:40:23.380 --> 00:40:30.909 Michelle Afshar: happy, valued SE, like, you gotta tell them to take a vacation. So I feel like that's… that is a benefit.
00:40:31.430 --> 00:40:41.100 Michelle Afshar: for your customers, they're like, these people know exactly what they're talking about. It's not just the product, right? You buy the product because it's good, you buy from the people that you trust.
00:40:41.200 --> 00:40:56.720 Michelle Afshar: So the customers are like, heck yeah, great product, amazing team, and if I'm gonna get this pre-sales, right, before I get the product, it's gonna be amazing post-sales. Like, I already have that confidence. So, I think it does a lot for that.
00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:58.290 Michelle Afshar: For a nay moment?
00:40:59.700 --> 00:41:00.820 Michelle Afshar: You know…
00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:10.940 Michelle Afshar: it's almost like, you know, sometimes people will ask me, like, how many kids do you have? I have one son, but there are days I feel like I have a thousand right now, right? Like, at Dark Trace.
00:41:11.160 --> 00:41:25.740 Michelle Afshar: you feel really proud. We get to share win stories every couple weeks here at Dark Trace, and I hear this alignment, I hear people working together, I hear the intention, I hear them using the playbook, I hear them sharing these stories.
00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:36.489 Michelle Afshar: there's a sense of pride for me that goes all the way up to the top, right? Like, it's working, it's the product works, the company works, it's really, really great. So, I think it's…
00:41:37.060 --> 00:41:45.459 Michelle Afshar: for enablement, I think it's, like, that sense of, like, okay, we have them figured out, we gave them what they needed, and they, like, are using it, and they like it.
00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:48.419 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, exactly. And…
00:41:49.020 --> 00:42:03.160 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: without going into too much detail, I know one of the things that you do is, even when it comes to, like, a sales kickoff or whatever like that, the SEs and the salespeople are all together. I mean, it's pretty amazing, and…
00:42:03.230 --> 00:42:18.899 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: awarding, you know, everybody in some ways just as much, if not more, when it comes to that recognition, because, as you say, they're wired differently. Sales is very wired based on, you know, money in particular, but SEs are often
00:42:19.140 --> 00:42:27.110 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you know, they feel rewarded based on recognition, and that they're doing good things. It's not necessarily about money for everybody.
00:42:27.130 --> 00:42:30.230 Michelle Afshar: And then you mentioned about the client. I think that.
00:42:30.230 --> 00:42:47.960 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: the way that somebody like Dark Trace is set up is going to be differentiated in the experience for the client, and that could be the difference between them selecting you or selecting somebody else. Because if they're dealing with a team that's not organized versus a team that seems like they're working together.
00:42:48.010 --> 00:42:58.330 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: that alone could be the differentiator, because there's so much now that's just the noise level that everything is like table stakes and expected to be equal. That could be a huge differentiator.
00:42:58.330 --> 00:43:14.779 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, let's see, we just did get a comment here, let me just see what it says. SEA, I've seen, but the other way around, in my experience, at least, is a mythical beast. So, I mean, it… I've seen both, and SE to AE, I think, is probably more prevalent.
00:43:14.780 --> 00:43:15.610 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: …
00:43:15.610 --> 00:43:35.210 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: But there are those AEs that don't like, and I think I heard you say this on another podcast, about the quota. That can sometimes be too much, and so some AEs might not want the quota, and they want to go back to a role where they're really doing something very productive. So, I appreciate the viewer making that comment, and I think it could be a little bit of both, depending.
00:43:35.210 --> 00:43:49.930 Michelle Afshar: I hate a quota. That's why I'm in enablement. Like, I was really good at sales. I was… I was so good art. Like, if I think back, I was good. I probably could have had a great, successful career. That quota, starting at zero.
00:43:51.000 --> 00:44:06.360 Michelle Afshar: Like, every… every time you felt good, you start back at zero, I couldn't do it. I wasn't smart enough to be an SE. I didn't… I couldn't do it. That I couldn't do either. So I ended up in enablement, which so far has proven to be wonderful.
00:44:06.360 --> 00:44:22.050 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yes, yes, you're spreading the capabilities out and your love to everybody. I love it. So, just real quick, we have about a minute left here. Very quickly, what's your vision, then, of what you see as the future of sales and pre-sales working together?
00:44:22.940 --> 00:44:33.079 Michelle Afshar: I think if the companies that are gonna win turn their SEs into these, like, strategic advisors, and they turn their reps into more of a technical seller.
00:44:33.080 --> 00:44:48.800 Michelle Afshar: I think that's the, like, winning formula. The companies that invest in that, the companies that actually do that, that train their teams to do that, I think they're gonna be ahead, I think they're gonna feel the difference. It's gonna match the market, it's gonna match what people are asking for.
00:44:50.030 --> 00:45:01.019 Michelle Afshar: I think the other thing is, like, just figuring out how to incentivize people. Like, figure that out, do it really, really well, because it's very different across all of the companies.
00:45:01.020 --> 00:45:10.289 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Yeah, and just that alone, studies, like I said, show 37% difference. I mean, that's money that's laying on the table right now. I mean, just that alone, and nothing else….
00:45:10.290 --> 00:45:14.319 Michelle Afshar: give it to the sellers, take some of the money, and buy the SCs some burritos.
00:45:15.060 --> 00:45:17.249 Michelle Afshar: You'd do something like that really quickly.
00:45:17.250 --> 00:45:33.510 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I love it. Well, Michelle, thank you so much for being here. Everybody, you can go to the show page on TeamSalesDevelopment.com under events, check out Michelle further, and you'll be able to watch the recording and everything. What's the best way to contact you or connect with you, Michelle?
00:45:33.510 --> 00:45:35.110 Michelle Afshar: LinkedIn is great.
00:45:35.480 --> 00:45:47.889 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Alright, we've got Michelle's LinkedIn, connection on the webpage as well. So, again, thank you so much, I really appreciate it. It's a pleasure being here and working with you in real life, too.
00:45:47.890 --> 00:45:49.750 Michelle Afshar: Thanks for having me, Art, it was great.
00:45:49.750 --> 00:45:53.789 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: My pleasure, thank you very much. Alright, we'll be back after this commercial break.
00:47:40.070 --> 00:47:47.899 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Alright, everybody, welcome back, and again, great segment there from Michelle. I would recommend going back, watching it, and stealing all those ideas.
00:47:48.060 --> 00:48:06.739 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: for your company, because they are the secret to success, where everything is just kind of a blur now, and may seem like it's, very similar when you're dealing with different type of companies, so that's a way to be differentiated. Did have another question come in on the livestream.
00:48:06.920 --> 00:48:10.460 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So, the question is, who's responsible for the playbook?
00:48:10.600 --> 00:48:27.909 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: marketing, sales, or enablement. And this would be the playbook that typically implements a sales methodology. It's usually the things that define the sales stages. It's usually the thing that helps, sales and pre-sales with the personas, so that they know who they're working with and things like that.
00:48:27.910 --> 00:48:36.020 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: I've seen a variety of different things. Generally speaking, it's gonna be driven by a combination of marketing and enablement.
00:48:36.020 --> 00:48:37.989 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Where enablement is the…
00:48:37.990 --> 00:48:51.779 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: liaison, if you will, for sales, and so marketing and enablement will develop it and have the responsibility for putting that together, and then enablement rolls it out to sales. Now, none of this should be done in a vacuum. It should be done with
00:48:51.910 --> 00:49:09.000 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: sales buy-in, but the bulk of the work is done there, and then it's up to sales to implement it with enablement's help. So, I see enablement right in the middle there, being involved with all of it, and that's what Michelle's so good at, is making sure that all that happens very, very smoothly.
00:49:09.650 --> 00:49:22.489 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So thanks for that, I appreciate the question, and by the way, everybody, you could put in additional comments, or go to the teamsalesdevelopment.com page, and if you go to the contact
00:49:22.490 --> 00:49:36.979 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: portion of the page. Feel free to put questions in there. I'd really like to hear from you as far as things that you're up against, comments or feedback for the show, and certainly, as we said, like, share, subscribe.
00:49:36.980 --> 00:49:43.750 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: To the, show that… wherever you're watching it from, because that'll help spread the word for others, and please do that.
00:49:44.090 --> 00:50:01.820 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: That brings us to, and this is, again, where we can have the questions coming from the audience, what I call… it's a little cheeky, I don't know if I'm still comfortable with this, but the Ask Artie, or the Dear Artie section, and it's after the Dear Abby, where people wrote in their life issues.
00:50:01.820 --> 00:50:07.640 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: To the, columnist, and then she would answer the, you know, people's life challenges, so…
00:50:07.780 --> 00:50:27.700 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Dear Artie is the section where people can write in your sales challenges. And, two of them that I had that I wanted to share with you today are kind of related, and they're also, of course, related to the topic that we had. I'll do each one separately, and then you can take the nuggets out of each one of them as you see fit.
00:50:27.700 --> 00:50:31.230 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The first one, comes from a writer who says.
00:50:31.290 --> 00:50:48.079 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: In our company, the sales and pre-sales teams are operating in silos. Sounds familiar, right? I mean, we literally just talked about that. With different objectives, here's the key. With different objectives leading to misaligned messages and inconsistent client experiences. Sounds familiar, right?
00:50:48.150 --> 00:50:59.940 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Some of the issues this has caused us is clients were wondering if they were talking to different companies while interacting with the various team members, which diminished trust.
00:50:59.940 --> 00:51:13.929 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Reduce deal sizes due to inconsistent value propositions and a lack of traction. So what can be done about that? And, you know, Michelle gave a lot of good ideas on that, and I would just add a couple specific things here, is…
00:51:14.380 --> 00:51:21.779 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: One thing is, that I think can unify everybody, is the focus on the buyer, and on the buyer's journey.
00:51:21.780 --> 00:51:38.809 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: All too often, we're too… even playbooks are very often just about the sales process. What a playbook should say is, what is the buyer doing, and then what sales motions do we have as a result of that? So, when we're focused on the buyer journey as a common goal.
00:51:38.810 --> 00:51:53.229 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: everybody can unite behind that in order to equip the buyer for success. I think the concept of, shared ownership and accountability. In my book, Making Seamless Sales, I do talk about the idea of
00:51:53.780 --> 00:52:06.119 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: a pyramid where you've got higher-level people that would be more strategic, and then… and this is talking about the client. Higher-level people, C-level people in the client that are more strategic, and then…
00:52:06.120 --> 00:52:25.750 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: at the bottom of the pyramid, which just represents that there's more of these people, is the implementers, the IT department, the infrastructure, that type of thing, which tend to be more technical. I mean, that's just the nature of business, right? The IT is supplying services to the rest of the organization. The C-level is
00:52:25.880 --> 00:52:29.679 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Providing the revenues and the shareholder value.
00:52:29.750 --> 00:52:45.000 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Well, on that, if you think about the sales team, they need to definitely be completely aligned at the top of the pyramid, and then have somewhat diminishing direct involvement, and even not so much complete knowledge, or
00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:50.059 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: expertise in those areas, because on the other side of the pyramid, we have
00:52:50.060 --> 00:53:06.069 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The sales are the SEs, the pre-sales organization. They're the opposite. They own everything up to and including the middle, and then have a little bit diminishing involvement. The key point is, right in the middle, it's a sweet spot. So, shared ownership of
00:53:06.090 --> 00:53:14.330 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: How are we connecting technology to strategic business outcomes? And how are we addressing strategic business outcomes
00:53:14.330 --> 00:53:25.089 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: with the technology that we're providing. So that will help with unifying the message. And then I think some interdependent responsibilities, where it is known that
00:53:25.090 --> 00:53:37.940 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you know, there's a little bit of divide and conquer, but in that middle sweet spot, everybody should have the same message. So sales should be able to connect the two, and pre-sales should be able to connect the two. That way, when the client
00:53:37.980 --> 00:53:54.010 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: at whatever level they are on the pyramid is talking with somebody on the sales team, it's going to be a consistent message. Now, this should result in increased win rates, because you'll have a better feel for what the client's true needs are, improved client satisfaction.
00:53:54.010 --> 00:54:04.399 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Because the process will be more frictionless and seamless. And also, through the improved relationships and consistent experiences, the client will want to come back.
00:54:04.440 --> 00:54:19.930 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: We want that pull from them. We don't want to have to push. I never would want to have to make a sale because I've pushed it on somebody. That's not going to be a success. I want them to feel like it's what they really want and what they really need, and then they'll keep coming back.
00:54:20.040 --> 00:54:35.180 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So that was one question, and the other question that's along some of the same lines, because of the theme of the buyer focus, somebody wrote in and said, SEs… in our company, SEs are typically brought in too late in the sales process.
00:54:35.180 --> 00:54:40.889 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Often when an RFP, so for anybody that doesn't know, request for proposal.
00:54:40.890 --> 00:54:45.509 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Could be a request for proposal, or for information, or a request for quote.
00:54:45.620 --> 00:54:58.409 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: that's already been issued, forcing the SEs to try to catch up quickly on the client's needs and the competitive landscape, which makes doing a demo or anything else more difficult. So…
00:54:58.410 --> 00:55:11.879 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The issues they said that this is causing is they're experiencing longer sales cycles because of all that churn and, you know, sort of trying to fight through it. Reduced ability to influence the buying process.
00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:28.049 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Since they're only evolved at very late in the process and onward, and lower win rates due to reactive rather than proactive engagement. What can be done about it? So, once again, I would say that the focus needs to be to shift to the buyer, and think about this for a minute.
00:55:28.290 --> 00:55:45.369 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: wherever that RFP or RFQ happened, and when they give it to you, if that's when you get involved as a sales team, something happened prior to that that made them want to do the request for proposal. They didn't just think of that overnight, that, oh, we need to do a request for proposal.
00:55:45.370 --> 00:55:56.149 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: So my suggestion is, as a team, again, together, and even more, I'd say it's the sales responsibility, try to move left in the buying process and find out
00:55:56.430 --> 00:56:12.939 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: what caused that RFP to happen? What are they really trying to do? And I think encouraging the SE involvement earlier, wherever you have the possibility to move left in the process, to be involved with discovery and needs analysis is important.
00:56:13.060 --> 00:56:17.969 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Again, because you will each see something a little bit differently. And then…
00:56:18.330 --> 00:56:27.600 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: This is where, whenever you are engaged, and you're asking the questions and doing the discovery, my concept of selling really begins at that point.
00:56:27.600 --> 00:56:39.410 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: But I don't mean pushing the product. I don't mean selling it as in trying to force it. What I mean is, ask the leading questions that help somebody uncover more about what they're trying to do.
00:56:39.410 --> 00:56:56.330 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: even if it's an RFP or an RFQ late in the game, ask the questions about where did this come from and what are the business objectives? That will give you more insight to who's doing it, and why they're doing it. So again, thanks for that. By the way, the outcomes should be
00:56:56.410 --> 00:57:14.619 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: you know, mutually beneficial outcomes, influencing the decision criteria will allow better qualification, and therefore shorter sales cycles and higher win rates, because you'll be able to move through it instead of churning and guessing what's going on. So there's more solutions like that in my book.
00:57:15.310 --> 00:57:31.009 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: The same name as the show, Making Seamless Sales. Really quick, as we begin to wrap up here, thank you everybody for being here. Next week's show, episode 5, is with Anil Shah. He's the CEO of CloudFronts, and he will share his experience helping clients with
00:57:31.010 --> 00:57:44.439 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Agentic AI as a Microsoft and Databricks partner. He's also who I coincidentally met, you'll hear the whole story, when I needed to implement my sales methodology into the CRM system.
00:57:44.440 --> 00:58:01.799 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Initially in Dynamics 365 and now into Salesforce, so we'll talk about that as well. Thanks for listening or watching. If you're looking for help with consultative selling, or know anybody that does need help, I'd love to find out more so we can work together to help increase your win rate.
00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:04.850 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Revenues, margins, and client satisfaction.
00:58:04.850 --> 00:58:06.180 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: through keynotes.
00:58:06.180 --> 00:58:25.679 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: sales kickoffs or workshops and tools that I could provide. Thank you, Jesse, for all your help today, and especially thank you, Michelle, for sharing your inspiring insights. Everybody check out TeamSalesDevelopment.com for more information, and we'll see you next week, same time, same place, Thursday nights, 7 p.m. Eastern.
00:58:25.680 --> 00:58:27.770 Art Fromm - Team Sales Development: Thanks, everybody. Have a great night.
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