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EPISODE SUMMARY:
What happens when tech built to boost performance erodes trust? We unpack the legal, cultural, and human cost—and how leaders can protect psychological safety.
WHAT YOU WILL LEARN:
Imagine discovering that the same workplace tech meant to make your job easier is quietly dismantling trust, blurring boundaries, and draining morale. In this episode of The Hard Skills, we pull back the curtain on how tools like productivity trackers, AI decision-making, and remote monitoring reshape not just workflows—but the culture, safety, and well-being of entire teams. You’ll hear how leaders face a growing legal and ethical duty of care in tech-integrated workplaces, and what it takes to meet that responsibility in real terms—not just policy statements. We explore the blind spots that make even well-intentioned technology harmful, the risks that can spiral into legal exposure, and the choices that can either protect or undermine psychological safety.
If you’ve ever wondered whether the systems you’ve built are quietly shaping a culture you didn’t intend, start here. This isn’t theory—it’s a deep, unflinching look at the human side of workplace tech.
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ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Dr. Cameron Stockdale is an internationally recognized leader in organizational behaviour, workplace wellness, and change leadership. He is the former CEO of the Work Wellness Institute and currently serves as Chair of the International Leadership Association’s Healthcare Leadership Community and Vice Chair of the Executive Health and Safety Council of British Columbia. With over 25 years of experience in emergency health services, Dr. Stockdale brings a practical and policy-informed perspective to the intersection of health, leadership, and innovation. He holds a Doctor of Education in Interdisciplinary Leadership (Creighton), a Master of Laws in Innovation and Technology (Edinburgh), a Master of Arts in Leadership (Guelph), and a postgraduate certificate in Organizational Behaviour from Harvard. Dr. Stockdale holds both national and provincial appointments advising Canadian governments on workplace policy and legislative change. His current research explores how emerging technologies influence psychological safety, legal accountability, and leadership practices in modern workplaces undergoing rapid transformation.
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LINKS:
www.gotowerscope.com
https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/the-hard-skills-dr-mira-brancu-m0QzwsFiBGE/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-cameron-stockdale-388b4b46/
#PsychologicalSafety #Trust #Tech #AI #Law
Tune in for this empowering conversation at TalkRadio.nyc
In the Season 9 kickoff of The Hard Skills, Dr. Mira Brancu highlights the paradox of workplace technology: while tools like AI and monitoring systems can boost efficiency, they also risk eroding trust and culture if not thoughtfully managed. She introduces guest Dr. Cameron Stockdale, a global leader in organizational behavior and workplace wellness, who emphasizes that digital transformation is fundamentally a human issue as much as a technical one. Together, they explore how leaders must balance innovation with transparency, communication, and values alignment to build resilient teams and cultures in times of rapid change.
Dr. Cameron Stockdale expands the conversation to gig workers, noting how algorithm-driven platforms often create stress, isolation, and mistrust by acting as “black box” bosses that control data without transparency. He stresses that technology is never neutral—culture ultimately mediates whether tech enables productivity or undermines psychological safety, and leaders must engage with people directly rather than relying solely on digital oversight. Stockdale warns that without thoughtful leadership, shortcuts like over-reliance on monitoring systems or unvetted information can erode trust, and urges leaders to integrate ethics, transparency, and human connection to build resilient, high-performing organizations in a complex world.
Dr. Cameron Stockdale emphasizes that leaders must go beyond legal compliance to protect trust and psychological safety, especially for high performers who resist micromanagement. He advises using a “sniff test”—pausing to view decisions through an ethical and reputational lens—while involving employees early to ensure new tools align with their values and workflows. Stockdale warns that technologies like time trackers or biometrics may be lawful but can harm morale and well-being if applied without thought, urging leaders to prioritize transparency, dialogue, and respect to balance efficiency with culture and trust.
Dr. Cameron Stockdale closes by highlighting that while technology can threaten trust when misused, it also holds real promise for democratizing workplaces, flattening hierarchies, and even supporting emotional regulation when applied thoughtfully. From AI “digital colleagues” and digital twins to tools that help leaders communicate with clarity and manage conflict more constructively, these innovations can strengthen culture if paired with transparency and human leadership. Mira Brancu reminds listeners that the real opportunity for high-achieving leaders lies in balancing ethics, trust, and performance while using technology as an enabler, not a substitute, for genuine leadership connection.
00:00:52.290 --> 00:01:02.959 Mira Brancu: When you think about technology at work, you might picture efficiency, data, better decision making, but what happens when those same tools
00:01:03.080 --> 00:01:14.549 Mira Brancu: like productivity trackers and AI decision making and remote monitoring start to quietly chip away at the trust, culture, and safety we've built.
00:01:15.030 --> 00:01:23.840 Mira Brancu: In today's episode of The Hard Skills, we are asking, how do leaders protect workplace trust in an area, era, when.
00:01:24.100 --> 00:01:29.279 Mira Brancu: Technology can just as easily erode as it can enhance it.
00:01:30.030 --> 00:01:38.459 Mira Brancu: We are kicking off Season 9 when we're focusing on strengthening workplace culture, and I literally cannot think of a better focus
00:01:39.340 --> 00:01:41.410 Mira Brancu: Than this talk today.
00:01:42.060 --> 00:01:44.880 Mira Brancu: And before I introduce my guest.
00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:56.019 Mira Brancu: One thing I want to mention before we start, and I'll be kind of reminding folks along the way, is that this fall, my Tower Scope Leadership Academy is kicking off a new program.
00:01:56.480 --> 00:01:59.960 Mira Brancu: Their Strategic Leadership Resiliency Fellows Program.
00:02:00.160 --> 00:02:08.109 Mira Brancu: It's specifically tailored to develop the hard skills muscles to navigate today's uncertainty and disruption, and there are two options that we're offering.
00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:17.080 Mira Brancu: One is a shorter term, virtual half-day workshop called the Anti-Leadership, the Anti-Burnout Lab.
00:02:17.480 --> 00:02:25.589 Mira Brancu: The Anti-Burnout Leadership Lab is on October 9th from 12 to 5 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, focused on getting grounded
00:02:25.870 --> 00:02:28.860 Mira Brancu: Mitigating burnout, and finding resilience.
00:02:29.230 --> 00:02:41.120 Mira Brancu: And the second option is called the Strategic Leadership Resiliency Accelerator, and it's more comprehensive, a 5-week program from October 16th to November 20th.
00:02:41.320 --> 00:02:43.500 Mira Brancu: From 4 to 6 p.m. Eastern.
00:02:43.760 --> 00:02:52.400 Mira Brancu: And it's focused on learning everything in my Strategic Leadership Pathway Model in order to go from grounded to growth, navigating complexity.
00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:54.880 Mira Brancu: Team dynamics, and culture change.
00:02:55.370 --> 00:03:03.089 Mira Brancu: Or you can get them as a bundle for less. So, to access them, get on my newsletter, because that's when I'm announcing it first.
00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:08.569 Mira Brancu: And you get on my newsletter by going to Gotowerscope.com.
00:03:09.130 --> 00:03:10.510 Mira Brancu: And subscribing
00:03:10.650 --> 00:03:18.009 Mira Brancu: Or you can follow me on LinkedIn, where I'm going to be posting on it, later on, after I open it up to newsletter subscribers.
00:03:18.620 --> 00:03:23.080 Mira Brancu: Registration starts now and ends September 29th, so look for it.
00:03:23.710 --> 00:03:30.269 Mira Brancu: All right, with all of that said, let me introduce our guest today, and I should start by saying that normally.
00:03:30.390 --> 00:03:32.879 Mira Brancu: I cut people's bios down.
00:03:33.020 --> 00:03:44.539 Mira Brancu: just to get the most critical parts for why they're on the show, but Dr. Stocktail's background is so rich, there's literally no fluff to cut.
00:03:44.700 --> 00:03:51.959 Mira Brancu: So I want you to hear it all, okay? Dr. Cameron Stockdale, which he let me call him Canton, okay?
00:03:52.150 --> 00:03:59.640 Mira Brancu: Is an internationally recognized leader in organizational behavior, workplace wellness, and change leadership.
00:03:59.950 --> 00:04:16.279 Mira Brancu: He's the former CEO of the Work Wellness Institute, and currently serves as the chair of the International Leadership Association's Healthcare Leadership Community, which is how he and I met and connected, and also vice chair of the Executive Health and Safety Council of British Columbia.
00:04:16.579 --> 00:04:29.590 Mira Brancu: He has over 25 years of experience in emergency health services, offering both a practical and policy-informed perspective to the intersection of health, leadership, and innovation.
00:04:29.910 --> 00:04:43.620 Mira Brancu: His doctoral degree is in interdisciplinary leadership. He also has a Master's of Laws in Innovation and Technology, a Master's of Arts in Leadership, and a postgraduate Certificate in Organizational behavior from Harvard.
00:04:43.730 --> 00:04:59.890 Mira Brancu: Dr. Stockdale also holds both national and provincial appointments advising Canadian governments on workplace policy and legislative change. His current research explores how emerging technologies influence psychological safety.
00:05:00.020 --> 00:05:11.119 Mira Brancu: legal accountability, and leadership practices in modern workplaces undergoing rapid transformation. So, with that, Welcome to the show, Cam.
00:05:11.740 --> 00:05:15.150 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: You make it sound more impressive than it actually is.
00:05:15.150 --> 00:05:19.660 Mira Brancu: No way! It is absolutely as impressive as it sounds.
00:05:19.660 --> 00:05:37.240 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Well, thank you very much, and I, you know, when you invited me on your podcast, I went and listened to a few episodes, and besides your intro music being burned in my brain now, you had some amazing guests, and you know, I just hope I could live up to the bar that they've already set, so….
00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:43.270 Mira Brancu: You will, 100%, I already know it. Okay, so, let's, …
00:05:43.520 --> 00:05:53.209 Mira Brancu: Let's start with just, your CEO experience itself, because you were in a leadership role, and I'm always interested in learning
00:05:53.600 --> 00:06:07.539 Mira Brancu: how people think about these leadership skills, when they're practicing it, right? So, you… in your CEO role, you led a full-scale digital transformation of this organization.
00:06:07.670 --> 00:06:17.950 Mira Brancu: So I'm curious, what did you implement? How did you decide to implement it, and what did you learn about that experience that led you to how you think about
00:06:18.370 --> 00:06:23.200 Mira Brancu: The intermix, right now, of psychological safety, ethics, law, transparency.
00:06:24.420 --> 00:06:26.780 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Maybe a little context for your listeners.
00:06:26.780 --> 00:06:27.220 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:06:27.220 --> 00:06:31.459 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: So, the Work Wellness Institute, we were a non-profit research institute.
00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:51.019 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And what we did is we actually looked at things like the 4-day work week, or hybrid work environments. Like, how do you actually manage and lead those? And then we would do the knowledge mobilization piece, so a podcast, or a webinar, or courses, and we developed it depending on the audience. The organization's
00:06:51.020 --> 00:07:07.850 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: 40 years old now, I think this year it turns 40. I just retired in March, so, quite happy to, like, I'm gonna say easy street. But, you know, the… the interesting thing about the organization was that before me, it had one CEO.
00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:22.869 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And they were very much in love with technology. But, you know, I walked into the organization and they had, they had its own servers. I mean, we could run our own internet. You know, there were legacy systems that didn't bolt together.
00:07:22.880 --> 00:07:37.630 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And I think when I walked in as the CEO, what I said was what most people do, who… and you look at it, and you say, this is a problem, let's implement that fix to the problem, right? You have a hammer, what is it? It's a nail, and you're gonna hit it.
00:07:37.750 --> 00:07:43.250 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: … And I realized very, very quickly that that's the wrong approach.
00:07:43.540 --> 00:07:55.900 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: that you have to look at it from a more holistic perspective, you have to look at it from a very systems-wide perspective. So, I really had to slow down and just take a breath.
00:07:55.900 --> 00:08:11.940 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And realize that what we were trying to implement here was, … it was a human issue, more so than a technological issue. The technology's there, right? You just have to know how to put the nuts and bolts together.
00:08:12.150 --> 00:08:29.429 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: But, you know, I sat there and I thought, I'm supposed to be this change management expert, and I was just kind of rushing forward and saying, hey, listen, you know, let's bring these new systems in. And taking a step back and really understanding that there was a human element that needed to sort of work on this.
00:08:30.590 --> 00:08:47.920 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: you know, we adapt technology in pockets or projects without that human oversight. And what I learned very quickly is that, you know, we were a very dispersed organization. You know, we had a main office in the lower mainland of British Columbia.
00:08:47.970 --> 00:08:52.210 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And we had a, you know, staff that were working in Manitoba.
00:08:52.250 --> 00:08:53.300 Mira Brancu: Hmm. And….
00:08:53.730 --> 00:09:12.599 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: that came with a bunch of issues when we were implementing technology. They're isolated, right? They, … so you think about… and I think it was Jeffrey Pfeiffer that coined the term something around, like, the bathroom effect, where, you know, people who are close to information and power, they sort of gain that information and power, and …
00:09:12.750 --> 00:09:27.169 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: and taking that into consideration. I did something very interesting at one time. I had to look at people's workspaces, and there's some workers' compensation rules and regulations here in the province, and …
00:09:27.530 --> 00:09:33.679 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: It was like, we did sort of like a, hey, show us your workspace and a decoration and a social setting.
00:09:34.010 --> 00:09:50.259 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And one of my staff members had emptied out their closet and was working in a closet, you know, four white walls, closely cramped, and I was wondering why she had issues, you know, being siloed and isolated, and I thought, you know.
00:09:50.990 --> 00:10:02.720 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Implementing technology is a human issue as much as it is a technical issue, and we have to move from that kind of, everything's a nail and it's a technological hammer that you hit it with, so….
00:10:02.990 --> 00:10:07.930 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Did I answer your question, or did I work out? Yeah, yeah, no, I really appreciate,
00:10:08.380 --> 00:10:23.930 Mira Brancu: most of the time, absolutely, we do not think about it as a human issue. We think, we're now gonna install Microsoft Teams for everybody. And, everyone will just need to be trained on how to use it, and that's it.
00:10:24.140 --> 00:10:25.680 Mira Brancu: And, …
00:10:26.070 --> 00:10:35.270 Mira Brancu: that isn't necessarily the… that's the end of it. That's not the start of it. So, I would love to hear more examples of,
00:10:35.610 --> 00:10:52.929 Mira Brancu: like, if you're going to… when you were in this role, and you started implementing, and you started realizing, okay, this is a human issue, one of the things I heard you say is that you actually went to visit people and see how they experienced the,
00:10:52.970 --> 00:11:01.159 Mira Brancu: their interactions with the organization, and that told you something. I'd love to hear a few more examples like that, and what did it tell you?
00:11:01.310 --> 00:11:09.600 Mira Brancu: About how much you had to be thinking about the people side of this change, in order to feel successful
00:11:09.730 --> 00:11:14.589 Mira Brancu: Not just with the final implementation, but even leading up to it.
00:11:16.580 --> 00:11:25.790 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Yeah, I think the obvious thing is you just can't hand people a tool and say, go and use it, right? And basic instruction. There's more to it.
00:11:25.790 --> 00:11:40.800 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: I made the mistake, and it was a very honest mistake. I had worked for another organization prior to taking over the CEO role. It was project management software, and I brought that project management software in and said, here you go, here's the tool, go and use it.
00:11:41.300 --> 00:11:43.160 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Never thinking about…
00:11:43.530 --> 00:11:54.710 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Values of the organization, never thinking about values of the people that were going to use the tool, for example. I looked at it from, this is going to make things more efficient.
00:11:54.910 --> 00:11:57.899 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And it didn't, right? …
00:11:58.060 --> 00:12:06.369 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: I'm going to bring it back to healthcare for a minute, and I'll sort of… I'll give you another example there. I did a lot of research and change in healthcare.
00:12:06.520 --> 00:12:07.700 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: …
00:12:07.910 --> 00:12:17.859 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And unless you tie the changes that you're making in healthcare to the values that the staff has, chances are it's going to fail.
00:12:18.830 --> 00:12:28.690 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: So, if you could tie it to better patient care, for example, you know, even in a, you know, a unionized environment, a difficult environment.
00:12:28.690 --> 00:12:30.489 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: They're more likely to adopt it.
00:12:30.490 --> 00:12:49.970 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And I think that's one of the, sort of, the things that I learned. I implemented this project management tool, it didn't fit with how people worked, and it ended up not being that much… it wasn't more efficient at the end of the day. I didn't listen to people and what they were saying, I just thought, well, I'll work there, it's gonna work here. Best practice isn't always best practice.
00:12:50.270 --> 00:12:52.180 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. I…
00:12:52.360 --> 00:13:03.839 Mira Brancu: can resonate as an employee recipient in the past of these kinds of changes. I am the kind of person, and many people are like me, who need to know
00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:16.420 Mira Brancu: why we're implementing something, and needs to know how it will make my life better, and why I should switch from what I'm already using. And that piece, that sort of,
00:13:16.800 --> 00:13:28.629 Mira Brancu: Friction, around inertia. Like, I'm using my thing, I know my thing, why should I have to learn something new, is a big part of the human part of change.
00:13:28.630 --> 00:13:40.399 Mira Brancu: And if it's a real steep learning curve, it better be worth it to me, right? So all of this stuff that you're describing is, about how people even choose
00:13:40.770 --> 00:13:51.359 Mira Brancu: To try to learn something new when it doesn't feel of value to have to work that hard to learn something new when their old thing is working just fine.
00:13:52.770 --> 00:13:57.360 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: I think the scary thing is, if you don't provide them with enough information.
00:13:57.400 --> 00:14:14.959 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: They usually fill that information in with negative thoughts and negative perspectives, making your job that much more difficult. So in change, we always hear about over-communicate, but over-communicate in different ways, different channels, different methods, and fill in the blanks for people.
00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:15.590 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:14:16.580 --> 00:14:34.979 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And because otherwise, we… you're right, we will fill in the blanks ourselves, and it's usually with negative information to prove to ourselves why we shouldn't do it, right? It's one of the… it's one of the issues I often have with these change management models. So, you know, we hear these numbers about things, you know.
00:14:34.980 --> 00:14:45.900 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: how often it fails. I think my big concern is that change management models often take the perspective that change is going to be perceived as positive.
00:14:46.190 --> 00:14:46.620 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:14:46.620 --> 00:14:59.650 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: positive in organizations. Sometimes, no matter what you do, it's going to be perceived as negative. So how as a leader do you mitigate those sort of negative thoughts, negative perspectives for the team that you're dealing with?
00:14:59.980 --> 00:15:09.090 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. … We are nearing an ad break. When we come back.
00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:22.260 Mira Brancu: I'd love to add the, sort of, second and third pieces to all of this, which is you think a lot about the legal implications, the ethical implications, in addition to the change management implications of tech.
00:15:22.380 --> 00:15:25.549 Mira Brancu: And the trust factor, too.
00:15:25.670 --> 00:15:30.370 Mira Brancu: So I'd love to start digging into that when we come back. You are…
00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:44.430 Mira Brancu: Listening to the Hard Skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Dr. Cam Stockdale. The Hard Skills is sponsored by Towerscope, my leadership and team development consulting firm. You can learn more about it at gotowerscope.com.
00:15:44.430 --> 00:15:57.360 Mira Brancu: The Hard Skills Show livestreams on Tuesdays at 5 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. If you're here right now, we're on LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitter, Twitch, through talkradio.nyc, and we will be right back.
00:15:57.760 --> 00:15:58.850 Mira Brancu: In just a moment.
00:18:10.620 --> 00:18:15.810 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the Heart Skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Dr. Cameron Stockdale.
00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:21.449 Mira Brancu: Before we get into, kind of, the interaction of all of this with trust-building.
00:18:21.810 --> 00:18:32.690 Mira Brancu: implications for culture, legal and ethical implications. There is one additional aspect about the change management piece that I'm curious about.
00:18:32.840 --> 00:18:36.740 Mira Brancu: … And that is gig workers.
00:18:37.530 --> 00:18:44.849 Mira Brancu: with… The increasing number of people that want to piece together their work life.
00:18:45.010 --> 00:18:52.289 Mira Brancu: And so… and those people are not… Officially embedded in one system.
00:18:52.670 --> 00:18:56.000 Mira Brancu: They're working for multiple systems, usually.
00:18:56.220 --> 00:18:59.480 Mira Brancu: And often part-time, too.
00:18:59.660 --> 00:19:02.539 Mira Brancu: … Are there additional…
00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:12.590 Mira Brancu: Changes that you've seen to how we do change management when implementing new technology that we haven't been thinking about?
00:19:16.020 --> 00:19:26.220 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Yeah, I've done a couple of research studies on the gig economy in the last little while. I did one with people with disabilities working in the gig economy.
00:19:26.670 --> 00:19:37.470 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: sort of unsecure work and financial stress that comes along with it. You know, and I've done one recently with rideshare drivers, actually.
00:19:37.470 --> 00:19:38.000 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:50.430 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: you know, from a psychological safety perspective, how are they functioning? And I did that in Western Canada, and kind of the results of that were, I thought, really interesting, in that…
00:19:51.110 --> 00:20:10.069 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: you know, technology to most people, when I've been doing the research, the platforms, they're this black box of, you know, they don't know how it works, doesn't matter how it's explained, doesn't matter how that, the process of getting the ride, or surge pricing, or those kind of things, it…
00:20:10.350 --> 00:20:25.900 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: there is always this suspicion about it. There's always this issue of, I'm being monitored. It monitors how I drive, it monitors, you know, how much I'm making, it, you know, it doesn't allow me to make the money that I need to make.
00:20:25.900 --> 00:20:30.770 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And so there's a lot of issues around the explanation of technology, and…
00:20:30.770 --> 00:20:40.120 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: The perception is reality at the end of the day. They feel stressed because of this algorithmic kind of boss that they have.
00:20:40.120 --> 00:20:52.059 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And you see that throughout the research on the gig economy. I would say at the end of the day that, you know, technology is not neutral.
00:20:52.220 --> 00:20:58.389 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: At all. And there's this assumption that technology is all about productivity.
00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:10.219 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: But what keeps coming up and up again is that culture mediates technology. The importance of a culture that you're creating in an organization, is…
00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:16.469 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: It will destroy your organization, or you'll have a high-performing organization because of it.
00:21:16.580 --> 00:21:22.749 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And in the context of platform gig-mediated work, you can understand that
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:37.130 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: culture is a very difficult thing to build. You know, the rideshare drivers that I were interviewing, they really expressed a lot of stress around the fact that they don't really have a community of people that they work with.
00:21:37.290 --> 00:21:52.369 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: You know, every now and then, they might talk to another driver, but the discussions that they have with their customers, they feel like they're always being evaluated, right? There's a Rate Your Driver app, and so they feel like they're always on, they're always under stress.
00:21:52.370 --> 00:22:06.709 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: So, I think that, you know, what's coming out in the research that I was doing and have been doing is just the importance of trying to develop that culture where you're implementing tech, and understanding that people in a gig economy feel really isolated.
00:22:06.900 --> 00:22:17.520 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Data is power, and they don't have access to that data. They don't know how it's actually accumulated, they don't know how it's used, they don't even know who holds it.
00:22:17.520 --> 00:22:37.170 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: So that black box of the algorithm and what happens with the data and how it's utilized, I think is one of the first steps that, in a platform gig economy, is something that really needs to be addressed. Because there's lots of thoughts around the inequality of it, and the trust factor as, you know, we've talked about before, so….
00:22:37.450 --> 00:22:55.040 Mira Brancu: Fascinating, fascinating. I want to take this in the direction of ethical and legal implications, but I also want to take it in the direction of the cultural, aspect. So I'm going to start with culture, because that's my area of interest, especially, and I'm curious
00:22:55.120 --> 00:23:03.720 Mira Brancu: We use culture in so many different ways, and, we don't always sort of provide a definition. I'd love to hear
00:23:03.940 --> 00:23:06.400 Mira Brancu: When you're thinking about the impact
00:23:06.600 --> 00:23:25.940 Mira Brancu: on culture and of culture in these environments, including the gig economy, experience, and just the organization itself, and how it interacts with technology. What are the things that you're looking for? What are those cultural factors that, that, are important key factors?
00:23:27.650 --> 00:23:34.949 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: So I started doing a little bit of work as a consultant after I retired, and walking into organizations. And, you know, I walk in.
00:23:35.390 --> 00:23:44.039 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And the COO or the CEO, you know, says quite proudly, hey, we just implemented this technology into the organization. It's wonderful.
00:23:44.180 --> 00:23:48.179 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Our managers, our supervisors, this is how they use it.
00:23:49.290 --> 00:23:51.949 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And I said to them, well, that's great.
00:23:53.130 --> 00:23:59.250 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: But what you've done is you've implemented a system where people aren't leading. What they're doing is they're managing.
00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:00.380 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Right.
00:24:00.550 --> 00:24:04.840 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: We're… we're implementing technology to the point where…
00:24:05.060 --> 00:24:17.129 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: What we're doing is watching people, we're governing people, using those systems more than we are standing up, walking around, and saying, how was your day? Which I think, from a leadership perspective.
00:24:17.130 --> 00:24:17.600 Mira Brancu: Mmm.
00:24:17.600 --> 00:24:26.139 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: is much more important. Getting to know your staff, getting to know your employees, what's impacting their, you know, their day, their organization.
00:24:26.290 --> 00:24:38.609 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: I don't think it does any good when a leader or supervisor, manager, whoever it may be, is sitting in their office or their cubicle, looking at their screens, and watching how people work.
00:24:39.040 --> 00:24:53.599 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: the project management tool that I was referencing earlier. You know, ultimately, it's kind of useless because, like, I needed to get up and actually go and say to somebody, hey, you know, this is due on Friday.
00:24:53.680 --> 00:25:08.820 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: How… it's Wednesday today, are you gonna meet your timelines? No? Okay, why not? Let me take the speed bumps out of the way for you. And the systems, the technology that leaders and organizations are implementing, this idea of performance and productivity.
00:25:08.820 --> 00:25:23.989 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: It's stopping us from being the leaders that I think we need to be to really create those cultures and those high-performing teams. So I've literally said to them, like, stand up and go on the, you know, the shop floor and have a conversation with somebody.
00:25:24.330 --> 00:25:43.100 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And they look and they think, well, we implemented the technology so we didn't have to do that. Like, well, okay, so how's your organization going after you've implemented that, Seth? There's some bumps, you know, there's some hiccups along the way. Of course, because you're also not getting feedback on how they're using the tools, and you implemented it without asking them.
00:25:43.180 --> 00:25:50.740 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: So there's all of these issues around building culture, I think, that, you know, technology is not Answer.
00:25:51.010 --> 00:25:57.890 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Yes, it's gonna help us, but it's two sides of the coin. We have to put the human side and the technology together.
00:25:58.540 --> 00:26:03.709 Mira Brancu: Yeah, what is the greatest worry that you have.
00:26:03.940 --> 00:26:07.829 Mira Brancu: For leaders who don't think about the…
00:26:07.940 --> 00:26:11.830 Mira Brancu: Downstream effects of implementing technology
00:26:12.010 --> 00:26:14.960 Mira Brancu: In a way that,
00:26:15.530 --> 00:26:19.250 Mira Brancu: Still holds on to those leadership skills that we need.
00:26:21.170 --> 00:26:34.230 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: So I've actually thought a lot about this, and I have an academic paper coming out, and I don't know what I'm titling it yet. I've called it Cognitive Integrative Leadership. I've called it the Cognitive Action Model.
00:26:34.230 --> 00:26:41.310 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: But really, what the intent of this paper is, and what I really explore, is this need for…
00:26:41.380 --> 00:26:48.280 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Leaders and organizations to think about, sort of, the epistemic elements of their organization.
00:26:48.870 --> 00:27:00.920 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: we live in an era of misinformation and disinformation, right? It's all over the place. And so, how… if we have that disinformation, how do we make decisions that are appropriate?
00:27:01.120 --> 00:27:09.140 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: where do we get the information from? How do we scrutinize it? Where do we store it? How do we use it for decision making? And I think…
00:27:09.430 --> 00:27:29.420 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: that's a really important part of leadership today, that I think there's a bit of a gap in, sort of, the leadership theory out there on that topic. And I think it's such a responsibility that we have as leaders, to be open, to be transparent about all of those things, so that people really understand, you know.
00:27:29.660 --> 00:27:34.109 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: The organization, and, you know, develop trust in the organization.
00:27:34.340 --> 00:27:49.210 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: I have a bit of a weird story, but when I was still working as a paramedic, I had a paramedic come up to me and say, oh, I did this really new, sort of, cool clinical procedure on somebody.
00:27:49.450 --> 00:27:52.880 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And it was cardioverting a cardiac patient.
00:27:53.330 --> 00:28:15.300 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: But what they had done is they actually gone and they had read one research study that was kind of on the internet. I don't even think it was peer-reviewed, and not… it was sort of like, you know, predatory journal article. And they took that, and they implemented it into their practice. And this is a long time ago, and even back then, I'm like.
00:28:15.430 --> 00:28:25.760 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: like, this is wrong, right? Like, we need to teach people, like, where this information is coming from, how to evaluate it. Is it good?
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:37.179 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: It's not for you to read one research paper and put that into your clinical practice, or to go read one paper that's on the internet, or a TikTok video, and implement it into your organization.
00:28:38.610 --> 00:28:44.949 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: management of knowledge takes years, right? One research paper is a page, you put it into a book, and it's the book.
00:28:45.090 --> 00:28:58.820 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: That, you know, changes protocols, procedures, and how you do it. And so, from a leadership perspective, I think those are some of the big issues that I see, and that's why I wrote the paper, that I think there's an added responsibility for leaders and organizations that we need to look at.
00:28:59.310 --> 00:29:01.749 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I mean, what I'm hearing is…
00:29:02.080 --> 00:29:09.820 Mira Brancu: That we are using all kinds of… Mechanisms, like technology, like…
00:29:10.030 --> 00:29:17.300 Mira Brancu: Reading that one paper online from a predatory, you know, journal, to, as a shortcut.
00:29:17.570 --> 00:29:24.430 Mira Brancu: To respond to highly complex systems, And it's just insufficient.
00:29:26.370 --> 00:29:44.019 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Yeah, I think that's what the paper I wrote is saying, that we live in a very complex, you know, we've all heard the term VOCA world these days, and how it's a bit chaotic. So how do you make decisions with clarity? How do you make… how do you cut through all of that noise?
00:29:44.020 --> 00:29:49.310 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: But I think part of that, if you can do that as a leader, you are actually creating
00:29:49.330 --> 00:30:07.559 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: trust and healthy… in your organizations, and healthy organizations. And I think that's a really important aspect of technology. I know we're going to get into the law piece of this, but, you know, maybe it's a bit of a lead-in. We cannot keep up with the law as compared to the ethics of implementing technology.
00:30:07.560 --> 00:30:08.280 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:30:08.590 --> 00:30:10.260 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And, …
00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:21.899 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And I think that's a big concern for leaders, to function in an ethical way, not just with compliance, because compliance is lagging at the end of the day.
00:30:23.020 --> 00:30:34.950 Mira Brancu: That's a beautiful way to segue, yes. So, you are listening to The Hard Skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Dr. Cam Stockdale. We just, …
00:30:34.950 --> 00:30:46.959 Mira Brancu: are, you know, starting to move into an ad break. The Hard Skills is sponsored by Towerscope, my leadership and team development consulting firm. You can learn more at gotowerscope.com. And you can find us right now, live streaming.
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:55.380 Mira Brancu: on LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitter, Twitch, all over the place through talkradio.nyc. Otherwise, we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:32:58.410 --> 00:33:02.250 Mira Brancu: Welcome, welcome back to the Hard Skills. So, …
00:33:02.630 --> 00:33:06.349 Mira Brancu: If I am a leader trying to do right by my people.
00:33:06.850 --> 00:33:16.720 Mira Brancu: And I am trying to retain my high performers, especially, and retain, … Trust.
00:33:17.180 --> 00:33:19.980 Mira Brancu: Psychological safety.
00:33:20.290 --> 00:33:29.670 Mira Brancu: high performance, you know, the things that I know are going to lead to, the best outcomes for my organization.
00:33:31.020 --> 00:33:34.080 Mira Brancu: We already know high performers
00:33:34.830 --> 00:33:38.930 Mira Brancu: Do not just stick around for basic compliance.
00:33:39.540 --> 00:33:48.070 Mira Brancu: You know, and they certainly don't feel good when they're micromanaged, by technology or person. And so…
00:33:48.540 --> 00:33:55.300 Mira Brancu: … How can leaders think through this and put some plans together
00:33:55.490 --> 00:34:13.410 Mira Brancu: That are both legally compliant, but also think about the ethics in a way that, you know, focuses on trust, focuses on what's important to, to people to perform at the highest levels. What are the things that you
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:17.339 Mira Brancu: Work with leaders on to start thinking through these things.
00:34:20.380 --> 00:34:31.790 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Yeah, there's something that served me well, and I have a very odd name for it, but this is back in my paramedic days, and it was, you know, … the ambulance service in British Columbia is quite large, right? BC is the size of, like.
00:34:32.120 --> 00:34:35.689 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: the state of California doubled, right? Very large area.
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:44.720 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And so I was responsible for, sort of, live operation of that at one time. And, you know, when I was dealing with a complex issue.
00:34:45.130 --> 00:34:49.860 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: I always took a moment, I took a step back, and I said, …
00:34:49.980 --> 00:34:52.820 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: If the media ever got ahold of this.
00:34:52.949 --> 00:35:04.959 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: what would be the criticism, right? I put a different lens on it. Now, I called it the sniff test. I wouldn't walk around your offices and say it's, I'm doing the sniff test.
00:35:05.080 --> 00:35:09.670 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: But to have that moment, that pause where you can step back.
00:35:10.100 --> 00:35:17.340 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: put another lens on what you're doing. Take a deep breath and slow down.
00:35:17.500 --> 00:35:31.819 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: I think that's ultimately important. When you're implementing technology into an organization, you have to involve the people that are going to use it at the end of the day. Don't do what I did with the project management software and say, I'm going to implement it and it's going to work.
00:35:32.290 --> 00:35:37.060 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Because if I had taken that step back before I moved
00:35:37.070 --> 00:35:56.120 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: forward, I would have thought, you know, I'm supposed to be this change management person, and I haven't involved anybody, I haven't looked at what people's values are in the system. You know, and I think that there's an approach there that you can take at the beginning and the outset of
00:35:56.340 --> 00:35:59.210 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: I'm implementing tech into your organization.
00:35:59.330 --> 00:36:12.100 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And like I was saying earlier, I think that there's an ethical component to this piece, because if you don't do that, the potential negative impact on your staff is going to be severe.
00:36:12.430 --> 00:36:27.839 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: You know, if you're suggesting to somebody that they have to use this tool, and you haven't trained them well, and it doesn't fit with their value system, and it's not the way that they want to work, are you creating a workplace environment for those people that actually
00:36:28.490 --> 00:36:48.189 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: functions. Is your high performer still going to be a high performer? The reason they're a high performer is because they've figured out a way to do it themselves. They, you know, they can take a shortcut, and they have their own shortcuts. They may not be… they may not be missing out on stuff, but they've figured out a way to do the job that has created a high performer, and you've taken that away from them and handed them a project management tool.
00:36:48.190 --> 00:36:56.209 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: So, respect your employees in that process, and I think that that's where I would start in this idea of implementing something.
00:36:57.080 --> 00:37:01.410 Mira Brancu: That makes a lot of sense. Let's keep going with that example. …
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:13.579 Mira Brancu: Let's say you have a bunch of high performers, they've cut… they've come up with their own unique way of doing things that works for them, they really love it, and… but, you're really…
00:37:13.870 --> 00:37:22.000 Mira Brancu: … you know, Committed to implementing this one technology solution.
00:37:23.160 --> 00:37:30.379 Mira Brancu: How do you… navigate getting feedback that they don't want it.
00:37:30.490 --> 00:37:34.559 Mira Brancu: And still implementing what you want.
00:37:35.630 --> 00:37:46.820 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: I would really evaluate, maybe it's just the way that you framed it, but why is it you're dead set on implementing this technology? That's the first question you.
00:37:46.820 --> 00:37:48.460 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:37:49.080 --> 00:38:02.680 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: you know, if you think that implementing it is… there are some times you have to implement new technology. Like, you can't run an office now without having word processing or, you know, the capability of doing the internet, and I understand that.
00:38:03.020 --> 00:38:18.929 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: But if it's other tools that you're putting into place, again, take that step back, take a deep breath, and talk to people. I would much prefer a leader go and have a conversation with their staff and say, what are you using?
00:38:19.140 --> 00:38:29.739 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: how do I make your job better by implementing tools? Like, what tools do you need? Do you have a level of expertise in this area that I don't?
00:38:30.340 --> 00:38:43.809 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: You know, it's interesting in the… you mentioned in my bio, I have this sort of chair of the ILA role, and we've been running these, leadership webinars with high-profile healthcare individuals.
00:38:43.940 --> 00:38:51.780 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And the thing that keeps jumping off the page to me is that each one of these very successful, very high-profile, very accomplished people
00:38:51.900 --> 00:38:53.100 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: They're humble.
00:38:53.930 --> 00:39:06.980 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: The first thing that they say in these interviews is that, I don't know it all. And I learned if I was going to make a positive impact in the organization or in patient care at the end of the day, is I had to listen to people.
00:39:07.120 --> 00:39:18.930 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And I think listening to the conversations and listening to your people is the first step in this process. They'll identify for you the tools
00:39:18.990 --> 00:39:32.530 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: that they can use to be much more efficient in organizations. And that's what happened with the Work Wellness Institute. You know, I had an IT team and an education team that got together and said, we don't need this tool.
00:39:32.700 --> 00:39:33.970 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: We need this one.
00:39:34.440 --> 00:39:40.589 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And frankly, it was a much better, much more elegant solution. And so that's where it starts at the end of the day.
00:39:41.010 --> 00:39:46.100 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and I would add to that, that… …
00:39:46.870 --> 00:39:49.849 Mira Brancu: I really like this piece about the self-awareness.
00:39:50.040 --> 00:39:57.760 Mira Brancu: part of why you're choosing to go in a direction. I've… known…
00:39:58.130 --> 00:40:02.249 Mira Brancu: Leaders who have wanted to implement a technology
00:40:02.540 --> 00:40:05.800 Mira Brancu: Because, they were annoyed by…
00:40:06.140 --> 00:40:16.290 Mira Brancu: some of the high… some of the lower performers not doing what they need to do. But unfortunately, by implementing something that meets
00:40:16.390 --> 00:40:30.610 Mira Brancu: lower performer compliance, it alienates high performers, right? It's substituting actual management with technology, which is what kind of you were… you were speaking to.
00:40:30.610 --> 00:40:36.289 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: I think we always do that, right? We create policies for the lowest common denominator, and we're gonna.
00:40:36.290 --> 00:40:36.870 Mira Brancu: Right.
00:40:36.870 --> 00:40:45.319 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Right? I'm not sure if you've had a guest on here that have said this, but we've heard this before. Wouldn't we love to have a policy and procedure manual that said, do the right thing, and that was it?
00:40:46.060 --> 00:40:51.239 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: You know, but we create these booklets of policies for that person that, like.
00:40:52.150 --> 00:41:05.889 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: you know, you're dealing with them every third day on a particular issue. The reason why you have a social media policy in an organization, or the reason why you have a policy on, you know, workplace behavior.
00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:13.050 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: It's because somebody violated that kind of trust in the organization before, and oh, now I gotta put it down on paper.
00:41:13.390 --> 00:41:26.610 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: But I think that this technology piece here is more than just a policy document at the end of the day, and the way that you move forward with it, right? There's the… there's the human connection, and there's the communication piece. And…
00:41:26.630 --> 00:41:43.920 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: I'll keep going back to that again and again. Walking into a business, and they say, hey, we just implemented this brand new toy in the organization. Look how wonderful it is. But then you ask them, okay, you expected performance and productivity by this new system. Is it happening?
00:41:44.050 --> 00:41:57.019 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: well, it's only been 6 months, and we haven't seen any improvements yet. I'm like, well, it's because you haven't done those initial steps. Yeah, but we have this, you know, fantastic policy manual that explains everybody how to do it.
00:41:58.110 --> 00:42:00.140 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Sort of missing the point a little bit, I think.
00:42:00.490 --> 00:42:17.780 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and I think this is where, we're looking at the difference between the legal or policy piece, the compliance piece, and the ethical piece. I'd love to hear more about that ethical piece, about what, are a few of the things that
00:42:17.830 --> 00:42:24.900 Mira Brancu: Leaders can be thinking about when they're considering more about the ethical side as compared to just the compliance
00:42:25.070 --> 00:42:26.679 Mira Brancu: Policy legal side.
00:42:27.290 --> 00:42:35.539 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Well, think about the tools that we have in organizations, or you could implement. There are time trackers. Completely illegal.
00:42:35.710 --> 00:42:47.850 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: But the implication of a time tracker on somebody is… is potentially quite severe. There was a paper that came out in 2024, the last one that I just read, Glavin and a number of authors.
00:42:47.850 --> 00:42:57.319 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And they really looked at those tracking devices and the impact on the wellness and mental health of employees. And there was a definitive negative impact.
00:42:57.320 --> 00:42:57.920 Mira Brancu: That's….
00:42:57.920 --> 00:42:59.130 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: one of…
00:42:59.330 --> 00:43:13.060 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: half a dozen studies I know on that topic. So if you think about it from an ethical perspective, you implement these time trackers, and you know that you're damaging individuals' health and well-being in organizations.
00:43:13.580 --> 00:43:32.889 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: There's a move afoot now, for example, on things like biometrics, right? Employers have biometrics in organizations. The bar is now being very… set very high in the courts around when you're going to use biometrics, right? Because it's personal data. You know, people have the right to know, etc.
00:43:33.070 --> 00:43:41.059 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: So, Even though if you're using it for valid workplace reasons, which you're allowed to do.
00:43:41.290 --> 00:43:44.130 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Should you be keeping that data?
00:43:44.930 --> 00:43:47.780 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Those are the kind of things that you need to think about.
00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:50.599 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Employees have the right to have that data.
00:43:50.680 --> 00:43:53.469 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: How do you give them access to it?
00:43:53.550 --> 00:44:10.520 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: How, if they object to something that's contained in there, how do they actually get that off their file? Or, you know, what's the security behind the data that's there? So, like I said, the courts are wading into decisions like that, but at the end of the day.
00:44:10.520 --> 00:44:15.429 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: You can't rely on the legal compliance piece to be a good employer.
00:44:16.890 --> 00:44:34.910 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah. You're, reminding me of, an argument I was constantly having with my past employer, around this time tracker. I had not thought about, like, the ethical implications of the time tracking, but, what I, you know, used to argue with them about is
00:44:35.450 --> 00:44:40.260 Mira Brancu: If you have… high performers.
00:44:40.530 --> 00:44:45.540 Mira Brancu: Who have been doing the work for a long period of time.
00:44:45.660 --> 00:44:49.670 Mira Brancu: You should actually see them spend less time
00:44:49.900 --> 00:44:58.319 Mira Brancu: rather than more time on the things that you're giving them, as compared to people who are new at this, right? And so what that means is.
00:44:58.600 --> 00:45:02.770 Mira Brancu: the less time I spend on this, I'm dinged?
00:45:02.940 --> 00:45:21.520 Mira Brancu: for not doing a good job, instead of getting rewarded for doing it faster, you know? And so… or, rewarded for not having to do X, Y, and Z, because I did it through ABC mechanism instead, right? And so that's another sort of, like, implication of
00:45:21.610 --> 00:45:25.779 Mira Brancu: Maybe not ethical, but morale-building, also.
00:45:25.780 --> 00:45:26.320 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Yeah.
00:45:26.700 --> 00:45:36.310 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: I was gonna say, it's like the plumber who's really skilled at their job. You know, it takes me all day to fix the plumbing in the house. But they come in, and it's 15 minutes, and it's done.
00:45:36.590 --> 00:45:53.270 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And probably done way better than what I could do it. So, yeah, you're right, there's this, … to be honest with you, I haven't even thought of it in that context, but, you know, you pay for expertise. In my world.
00:45:53.900 --> 00:46:13.450 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: you know, I've done so many of these degrees, etc. You know, I can write a paper fairly quickly now. I can't expect my staff to write, you know, white papers or that kind of thing in the same amount of time. They don't have the skill set, so if you use the Harvest Tracker on me, you'd be like, well, how did you do that in that amount of time? So yeah, you're absolutely fundamentally right.
00:46:13.690 --> 00:46:14.750 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah.
00:46:14.860 --> 00:46:24.779 Mira Brancu: So, we are reaching another ad break, and, I'd love to dig into kind of the flip to all of this.
00:46:24.830 --> 00:46:36.809 Mira Brancu: Can we use technology to build culture, to build trust, to, in a way that is, very, like, thoughtful, ethically,
00:46:37.040 --> 00:46:43.980 Mira Brancu: is… is that possible, in terms of just where you see the trends going? Or will it always take
00:46:44.230 --> 00:46:52.049 Mira Brancu: The human leadership element in order to manage the technology implications.
00:46:52.230 --> 00:47:00.359 Mira Brancu: So, you're listening to The Hard Skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Dr. Cameron Stockdale, and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:58.800 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the Hard Skills. So, up until this point, we've talked a lot about us managing technology that we implement. All the things that we have to look out for, put in place, all those things.
00:48:59.070 --> 00:49:07.140 Mira Brancu: Is there anything that you see, in terms of emerging trends, where workplaces are going.
00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:14.230 Mira Brancu: Where technology could actually help us with trust building, with ethics decisions, things like that.
00:49:15.570 --> 00:49:17.560 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Oh, absolutely. I mean…
00:49:17.700 --> 00:49:24.990 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: It's not that I hate technology, I just think you need to implement it with some forethought and some guidance.
00:49:25.810 --> 00:49:38.990 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: You know, if you think about how we're working in a lot of workplaces now, you know, it's democratizing the workplace, right? It's creating new ways and new relationships in organizations.
00:49:38.990 --> 00:49:39.470 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:49:39.470 --> 00:49:46.899 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: … the flattened hierarchy of an organization is a really good example of that. Now.
00:49:46.900 --> 00:50:04.779 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: I think that, you know, we don't want to get rid of all hierarchies. I mean, I think that that, the hierarchies and having a boss and somebody to report to, and clarity of work, actually, people need that in many respects. But I think as a communications tool.
00:50:04.860 --> 00:50:14.570 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Technology certainly has the ability to do… to do that for us. But if you think about the direction that the workforce is going.
00:50:15.190 --> 00:50:23.269 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: it… you know, there's a lot of things that are out there that I think are going to be really interesting in the near future. Like, I think you're gonna have digital colleagues soon.
00:50:23.500 --> 00:50:30.050 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: You know, you're gonna say to them, hey, do a marketing present… or do a marketing report.
00:50:30.380 --> 00:50:34.219 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Well, not only are they going to be able to do the marketing report, but they're going to be able to deliver it.
00:50:34.860 --> 00:50:44.520 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: So, I think what we're starting to see, and it's been tested in a few places I've been reading about, and they're talking about, okay, well, who's going to run that digital team?
00:50:44.650 --> 00:50:47.849 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: You, like, need a digital boss of the digital.
00:50:47.850 --> 00:50:48.370 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:50:48.540 --> 00:50:58.210 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And I think… so there's kind of a unique world that's going to develop there. There's things like the digital twin, and I don't know if you're familiar with that.
00:50:58.210 --> 00:50:58.720 Mira Brancu: Oh.
00:50:58.720 --> 00:51:04.960 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Digital Twin is something really interesting. I went out… I had a… I was able to have a tour of the, Vancouver airport recently.
00:51:05.300 --> 00:51:11.420 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And you're sitting down at a chair, and you look up at the screen, and you see a picture of the airport.
00:51:12.090 --> 00:51:15.460 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: But you kind of look over, and you look out the window, and you see the same thing.
00:51:15.540 --> 00:51:22.949 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Right? So you can actually be sitting in your chair and get a live picture of what's happening in the system.
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:39.920 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And it's really good for looking at, like, pattern flow issues. So with all the sensors in the building, you can tell if the car is parked out in front of the airport and shouldn't be there, and the computer automatically calls for the tow truck, and there's no human intervention, and those kind of things can happen.
00:51:39.970 --> 00:51:43.920 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: So there's lots of stuff that's coming. …
00:51:43.990 --> 00:51:56.679 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And so I think that there's the opportunity to take advantage of those, you know, talked about as a communication tool as one thing, it flattens hierarchies, …
00:51:56.850 --> 00:51:59.379 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: I think that…
00:51:59.810 --> 00:52:17.550 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: AI, for example, is going to be used more and more. If you're transparent as a leader and you're open, because you're going to get checked every time. We've got a computer in our pocket that we're walking around these days, right? And every time you say something, somebody goes to chat GPT or whatever other system that they're using and double-checks what you're saying.
00:52:17.550 --> 00:52:19.910 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: You know, I think that those, those are…
00:52:20.360 --> 00:52:32.580 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: opportunities that we have to make a real and positive impact. There's a negative side and a downside, again, to some of those things, but yeah, there's a door to walk through.
00:52:33.040 --> 00:52:40.100 Mira Brancu: Yeah. You know, one of the things that, I've been thinking a lot about is how… AI…
00:52:40.430 --> 00:52:59.209 Mira Brancu: can actually help us manage our own emotion regulation issues as humans. You know, we get angry with people, and we want to shoot that email out so badly that, like, tells them off, and tells them how we're right, and they're wrong, and it just makes things a million times worse.
00:52:59.220 --> 00:53:03.000 Mira Brancu: And, now we have a buddy to say.
00:53:03.450 --> 00:53:22.769 Mira Brancu: I want to say this, I know it's bad, can you help me remove the passion and emotion from this that, will just insult and offend? And instead, find a way to provide the feedback or, maintain the connection and the trust that I'm aiming for?
00:53:22.830 --> 00:53:28.730 Mira Brancu: And, I've known people to do that. I've done that, when I've been really riled up, and it's…
00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:32.909 Mira Brancu: Been so helpful when we're in those moments
00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:51.880 Mira Brancu: And, you know, I've been, like, fascinated by, like, could this be an opportunity for some, you know, maintaining trust when we're, in the midst of conflict, tension, turmoil, things that erode our coping mechanisms, things like that?
00:53:52.790 --> 00:53:58.240 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Yeah, I've done the same thing, you know, I've written a… I've written a letter or an email, and I've read it myself, and I thought.
00:53:59.650 --> 00:54:18.349 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: I should probably change that. So you go to ChatGPT, and you say, rewrite, more friendly, and you, oh, that's much better, I'm not going to get myself into trouble. So yeah, absolutely, those tools are out there. It's interesting, something you said, though, just then, about, you know, turning to the internet for help and emotional regulation.
00:54:18.500 --> 00:54:26.290 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: We were discussing the topic at the Work Wellness Institute that… you know.
00:54:26.620 --> 00:54:40.169 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: does this go… because there's a shortage of counselors and mental health professionals everywhere, right? So, is AI something that's going to be, you know, something that's going to be utilized in the future?
00:54:40.390 --> 00:55:00.189 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: what I thought was really interesting was that… not right now, right? It gives you the very vanilla answers, it conglomerates all the data out there into something very vanilla. But I actually had a staff member that said, well, I've used it because I don't, you know, I can't get access to a counselor. And they were using it for those, …
00:55:00.350 --> 00:55:05.760 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: to help themselves. So it wasn't just the rewrite using ChatGPT.
00:55:05.760 --> 00:55:19.429 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And I've started working in an organization, or helping them out a little bit, that's really looking at utilizing online presence to deliver that sort of mental health care counseling perspective.
00:55:19.430 --> 00:55:27.900 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Now, we'll see if that takes off and works, but that… there's another opportunity for the, you know, helping people and helping organizations.
00:55:28.360 --> 00:55:44.100 Mira Brancu: Absolutely, absolutely. There's so many implications for this. So, everyone, obviously, we could talk endlessly about this, but Kim, how can people find you so they can learn more about your work?
00:55:45.210 --> 00:56:01.110 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Well, you've gone on the screen there, I think you're showing people, that's the consulting company that I started. So there's a contact page there that you can go through, and I'll get a message from you. But, LinkedIn is just as good.
00:56:01.110 --> 00:56:16.289 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And then there's a couple organizations that I work with. One is called Electrify, which is a very interesting organization. Electrify, I started working with them because it came out of the gig work, research that I was doing.
00:56:16.290 --> 00:56:26.999 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: And this was all about financial security, financial education, and the impact on well-being that it had. So this, while it's fintech.
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:41.649 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: It certainly has a lot to do with using AI to sort of set people up for success in the future and reduce some of that stress. So those are a couple of the organizations that I work with, and you can certainly reach out and talk to me.
00:56:41.650 --> 00:56:42.110 Mira Brancu: Awesome.
00:56:42.110 --> 00:56:47.219 Dr. Cameron Stockdale: Always willing to have a conversation with, with somebody about this, this content and this stuff, so….
00:56:47.220 --> 00:56:56.530 Mira Brancu: Thank you. For those of you who are listening later, the company is, C-E-R-T-U-S Consulting.
00:56:56.710 --> 00:57:15.480 Mira Brancu: Certisconsulting.ca, because that's Canada, C-A, okay? Cameron Stockdale is where you find him on LinkedIn, and, Electrify is spelled E-L-E-K-T-R-I, T-R-A-F-I dot I-O.
00:57:15.640 --> 00:57:23.169 Mira Brancu: All right, and that will be also in the show notes anyway. So, folks, what did you take away?
00:57:23.450 --> 00:57:33.030 Mira Brancu: from CAM. What's one small thing that you can implement this week from what you learned today? And share it with us on LinkedIn so we can cheer you on?
00:57:33.370 --> 00:57:42.529 Mira Brancu: You can find us on all the podcast stations, and if today's episode resonated for you, please share it with a colleague or leave a review.
00:57:42.660 --> 00:57:45.679 Mira Brancu: Thank you to TalkRadio.nyic for hosting.
00:57:45.780 --> 00:58:00.430 Mira Brancu: Thank you for joining me and Dr. Cameron Stockdale today on this journey. This is Mira Brancou signing off. Until next time, stay steady, stay present, and keep building those hard skills muscles. Take care, everybody!
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