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EPISODE SUMMARY:
Imagine discovering the hidden traits quietly sabotaging your leadership. This episode reveals the 11 risks that can derail even the most promising careers.
Leadership failure rates remain shockingly high—studies show that 50% to 75% of leaders are ineffective. Why? Because their hidden personality-based risk factors are quietly sabotaging performance, communication, and team results. Most leaders don’t even know these risks exist, let alone how to manage them. In this episode, we’ll uncover what’s really behind poor leadership—beyond skills or knowledge—and explore a breakthrough approach to improving leadership effectiveness at every level. You’ll learn why traditional development falls short, how to recognize your own derailers, and what leaders must do differently to succeed. It’s time to stop tolerating mediocre leadership and start raising the bar—with data, accountability, and coaching that goes beneath the surface.
Imagine this: You’re confident in your skills, respected for your expertise—and yet, under pressure, something subtle starts eroding your impact. Missteps you can’t quite explain. Tension in conversations you thought you handled well. That’s not bad luck—it’s likely your personality-based risk factors at work. In this episode of The Hard Skills, we go beneath the surface of leadership. You’ll hear why half of leaders fail—not because they lack ambition or know-how, but because of how their hidden derailers quietly sabotaged their performance, relationships, and results. We unpack the 11 risks that can wreck even the strongest careers, how to recognize them in yourself and others, and what to do to stop them before they stop you. At the end, our guest will offer a free eBook so you can start your own self-awareness journey!
Nancy Parsons is a recognized expert in blending the science of assessments with the art of developing people. She is the co-founder and CEO of CDR Companies, creators of the powerful CDR 3-Dimensional Assessment Suite® and the 360 Leader Scan. In 2020, Nancy led the launch of the award-winning True Talent Coach (formerly CDR-U Coach), the first digital avatar coaching platform delivering personalized debriefs and action planning to employees at all levels. A recipient of the MEECO International Thought Leadership of Distinction in Executive Coaching, Nancy is also the author of Women Are Creating the Glass Ceiling & Have the Power to End It, an Amazon #1 Bestseller. She provides executive coaching across industries, leads strategic team development sessions, and trains coaches worldwide through the CDR Executive Coaches’ Certification. Nancy’s work is data-driven, deep, and transformational—equipping leaders to overcome risks and achieve sustainable performance.
#riskassessment, #derailers, #LeadershipCoaching #ExecutiveCoaching tools, #Coaching Feedback #DigitalCoaching
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In this episode of The Hard Skills, Dr. Mira Brancu highlights how hidden personality-based risk factors can silently derail even the most accomplished leaders, especially under stress or conflict. Guest Nancy Parsons explains how these unconscious patterns—such as egotism, hyper-moodiness, or low interpersonal awareness—cluster together to create toxic behaviors that undermine influence, trust, and long-term success. By developing self-awareness, adopting a shared vocabulary, and embracing targeted feedback, leaders can identify these risks early and transform them into opportunities for sustainable, high-impact leadership.
In this segment of The Hard Skills, Dr. Mira Brancu and Nancy Parsons unpack two of the three categories of personality risk factors that emerge under stress: “moving against” and “moving away.” Parsons explains that “moving against” risks—like egotism, rule-breaking, and upstaging—are historically tied to traditional views of strong leadership, which often benefits men but penalizes women who display them. In contrast, “moving away” risks—such as detachment, cynicism, or false advocacy—can silently sabotage organizations by shutting down communication, fostering artificial harmony, and eroding trust, making it crucial for leaders to build awareness, practice pivot phrases, and create safe spaces for authentic dialogue.
In this segment of The Hard Skills, Dr. Mira Brancu and Nancy Parsons explore the final category of leadership derailers: “moving toward,” with a focus on perfectionism. Parsons explains that while many assume toxicity or abrasiveness cause the most leadership failures, perfectionism is actually a more common culprit, leading to micromanagement, rigidity, risk aversion, and an inability to adapt at the C-suite level. Unlike more manipulative, abrasive leaders who often “pre-derail” by moving on before consequences catch up, perfectionist leaders can cause equally damaging environments by stifling trust and growth—making awareness, reflection tools, and small behavioral pivots essential for high achievers who want to avoid these hidden traps.
In the closing segment of The Hard Skills, Dr. Mira Brancu and Nancy Parsons wrap up their discussion on the 11 leadership risk factors by highlighting the final “moving toward” derailer: the pleaser. While often hardworking and well-intentioned, pleasers undermine their own effectiveness by overcommitting, failing to set boundaries, and prioritizing approval over courageous leadership. The episode closes with practical advice—leaders can prevent derailment by pausing and breathing under stress, developing awareness of their triggers, and practicing assertive, balanced responses—reminding high-achievers that sustainable leadership requires both self-awareness and healthier coping strategies.
00:00:52.290 --> 00:01:02.970 Mira Brancu: Every leader has them. Most don't know they're there. And when they show up, under pressure, in conflict.
00:01:03.130 --> 00:01:10.729 Mira Brancu: When the stakes are highest, They can equally undo everything you've worked for. I am talking about
00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:13.890 Mira Brancu: Your personality-based risk factors.
00:01:14.080 --> 00:01:23.800 Mira Brancu: the blind spots, habits, and patterns that derail even the most promising leaders. You, me, everybody else, okay?
00:01:24.010 --> 00:01:27.140 Mira Brancu: And you might not even know you have them.
00:01:27.530 --> 00:01:34.030 Mira Brancu: So, in today's episode, my guest, Nancy Parsons, will describe 11 hidden risks
00:01:34.310 --> 00:01:41.689 Mira Brancu: That sync success, and how to spot them in yourself, and others, and what to do before they take you down.
00:01:42.010 --> 00:01:47.890 Mira Brancu: Now, before I introduce her, I want to take a moment and ask you to reserve these dates in your calendar.
00:01:48.670 --> 00:01:55.170 Mira Brancu: The first is October 9th, from 12 to 5 p.m. Eastern Standard Time. October 9th.
00:01:55.370 --> 00:02:00.670 Mira Brancu: From 12 to 5 Eastern Standard Time, we are going to be hosting a brand new workshop.
00:02:00.880 --> 00:02:05.049 Mira Brancu: A half-day intensive called the Anti-Burnout Leadership Lab.
00:02:05.450 --> 00:02:08.109 Mira Brancu: That's right. I did a survey.
00:02:08.270 --> 00:02:11.060 Mira Brancu: And this was by far the…
00:02:11.220 --> 00:02:16.830 Mira Brancu: largest, greatest interest from everybody, and so I decided to host it.
00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:22.580 Mira Brancu: The second set of dates October 16th through November 20th.
00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:29.790 Mira Brancu: October 16th through November 20th, weekly on Thursdays from 4 to 6 p.m. Eastern.
00:02:30.100 --> 00:02:38.210 Mira Brancu: We're going to be holding a 5-week intensive on learning how to develop strategic leadership pathways.
00:02:38.330 --> 00:02:43.230 Mira Brancu: This is taking my entire Strategic Leadership Pathway Model.
00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:51.540 Mira Brancu: And really squeezing it in to an intensive 5-week program instead of my usual year-long.
00:02:51.540 --> 00:03:03.760 Mira Brancu: So this is a great way to get it all chunked up. Again, this is based on the survey that I did, and … if you're not on my newsletter, you're not going to hear about it first, and we're keeping it small. So…
00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:15.860 Mira Brancu: More to come, but get on my newsletter so you hear it first. It's www.gotowerscope.com, and where, when you go there, you can get on my newsletter if you're not already there.
00:03:16.060 --> 00:03:16.980 Mira Brancu: Okay.
00:03:17.100 --> 00:03:32.300 Mira Brancu: All of that said, let me introduce our guest today, Nancy Parsons. She is the co-founder and CEO of CDR Companies, creator of, the CDR three-dimensional Assessment Suite and 360 Leadership, Leader Scan.
00:03:32.310 --> 00:03:47.570 Mira Brancu: And, in 2020, Nancy led the launch of the award-winning True Talent Coach, which was the first digital avatar coaching platform delivering personalized debriefs and action planning to employees at all levels.
00:03:47.850 --> 00:03:49.410 Mira Brancu: Not just the highest levels.
00:03:49.610 --> 00:03:51.349 Mira Brancu: So, really scalable.
00:03:51.610 --> 00:03:59.529 Mira Brancu: She's also the recipient of the MECO, M-E-E-C-O, MECO, International Thought Leadership of Distinction in Executive Coaching.
00:04:00.060 --> 00:04:07.430 Mira Brancu: And she's the author of Women Are Creating the Glass Ceiling and Have the Power to End It, and has just put out a free e-book
00:04:07.540 --> 00:04:20.360 Mira Brancu: Which is what inspired me to bring her back on the show. The e-book is called Everyone Has Personality Risks, What Are Yours? And, at the end, you will hear how to get access to that for free.
00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:31.830 Mira Brancu: She provides executive coaching across industries, leads strategic team development sessions, and trains coaches, including me, worldwide, through the CDR Executive Coaches Certification.
00:04:32.110 --> 00:04:35.499 Mira Brancu: And she is someone I aspire to be.
00:04:36.090 --> 00:04:45.490 Mira Brancu: Now, we had Nancy on the show, in February 20th, 2024, so about 18 months ago or so.
00:04:45.750 --> 00:04:51.059 Mira Brancu: And that episode was called Mapping a Leadership Strategy Using Smart Assessments for Insight Building.
00:04:51.250 --> 00:04:59.899 Mira Brancu: And on that episode, she talked more generally about building self-awareness to help you with career and performance success. So now…
00:05:00.420 --> 00:05:10.079 Mira Brancu: We're taking one piece of that, we're doing a deep dive into what could really derail your career plans. And that's why she's back today.
00:05:10.590 --> 00:05:12.200 Mira Brancu: Welcome on the show, Nancy.
00:05:12.200 --> 00:05:15.900 Nancy Parsons: Well, thank you. I'm delighted to be here. Yeah. It'll be a great discussion.
00:05:15.900 --> 00:05:23.250 Mira Brancu: Yes, yes, I'm super excited. Okay, so let's, let's start with, the fact that, like.
00:05:24.020 --> 00:05:28.730 Mira Brancu: So you've worked with thousands, I think, of leaders across industries.
00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:33.189 Mira Brancu: How is it even possible that some of the greatest leaders
00:05:33.390 --> 00:05:36.439 Mira Brancu: Don't know their own leadership risks.
00:05:36.770 --> 00:05:38.369 Mira Brancu: When it comes to their personality.
00:05:38.990 --> 00:05:52.119 Nancy Parsons: Yeah, well, because they're not measured, but the other thing, when you think about it, the studies for decades have shown that 50-75% of leaders are ineffective. The numbers are staggering, right?
00:05:52.260 --> 00:06:09.790 Nancy Parsons: And there's two primary reasons for that. One is sometimes leaders aren't in the best job role. That's one. But the bigger reason is the risks are running amok, because people don't know what they are, so they're showing up here and there, you know, whenever a stress response is triggered.
00:06:09.790 --> 00:06:26.099 Nancy Parsons: one or two risks show up, another time something else. So they happen without leaders thinking about it. They're these unconscious reactions that we've developed from the time we're infants on up. So it's just how we react in certain situations. And some risks happen with more frequency.
00:06:26.100 --> 00:06:34.819 Nancy Parsons: Some, not much frequency, but great intensity. So, they're hard to get your arm around if you don't measure them and really get a vocabulary to understand what's happening to you.
00:06:34.990 --> 00:06:40.900 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah. So let's, let's take some examples of the continuum.
00:06:41.300 --> 00:06:44.609 Mira Brancu: Let's… let's start with the most fun. This is gonna be a really fun conversation.
00:06:44.610 --> 00:06:45.789 Nancy Parsons: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:06:45.790 --> 00:06:47.230 Mira Brancu: He has the best examples.
00:06:47.770 --> 00:06:51.510 Mira Brancu: Let's start with the most egregious
00:06:51.630 --> 00:07:05.500 Mira Brancu: kind of derailer experience that you've seen. What happened? What did it look like? This might give people a better picture of what we mean by risk factors or derailers.
00:07:05.500 --> 00:07:15.270 Nancy Parsons: Yeah, yeah, the most egregious, or what people think about, are the abrasive, or somebody losing control. Excuse me, I have allergies. Maybe screaming.
00:07:15.490 --> 00:07:20.459 Nancy Parsons: losing it. We had a CEO who was heading a tech energy company.
00:07:20.540 --> 00:07:35.920 Nancy Parsons: And he was… he was close to just making people run for their doors, hide. He was… the good news was for him, he was only in the office 2 weeks, and then would be out of country for 2 weeks. And they had a second in command to try to buffer and help people.
00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:41.789 Nancy Parsons: But he was a disaster and frightened people. So he was both kind of an egotist.
00:07:41.790 --> 00:07:55.429 Nancy Parsons: Had low interpersonal, and also, you know, was a… had high hyper-moody. So he had these hot buttons, and would vocalize, and, you know, his… excuse the expression, but his F-bombs were all over the place in the workplace.
00:07:55.520 --> 00:08:12.300 Nancy Parsons: Okay? Fortunately, he's moved on, sold that business, and now is not running a business. Some people, because of their risks and their overall profile, just aren't hardwired to run a business. But because they're smart and brilliant, they end up in those roles, right?
00:08:12.300 --> 00:08:13.010 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:08:13.010 --> 00:08:25.260 Nancy Parsons: And with that hyper-moody, hyper-moody, you know, is that emotional intensity up and down, losing your cool. And if you have the propensity to be outspoken, you know, it comes out without them even thinking.
00:08:25.260 --> 00:08:30.550 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah. Nancy, shared 3
00:08:31.370 --> 00:08:47.970 Mira Brancu: pieces of the way that people can show up in a combination of profile factors, right? So she mentioned egotist, she mentioned hyper-moody, and she mentioned low interpersonal. And these are part of the CDR
00:08:48.180 --> 00:08:51.810 Mira Brancu: 3D assessment suite, …
00:08:52.260 --> 00:09:09.050 Mira Brancu: you know, factors, character factors, as well as risk factors, and so it's not just, like, one risk factor, but it's how it shows up as a combination, right? So the way that she described it is, if you're an egotist, and then on top of that, you're also hyper-moody and intense, it comes out and
00:09:09.050 --> 00:09:13.140 Mira Brancu: Very different ways than if you didn't have that additional risk factor, right?
00:09:13.780 --> 00:09:28.610 Nancy Parsons: Yeah. Yeah. They cluster, right? So, you're hyper-moody. When people have hyper-moody, it sets off their other risks, because they've lost control of their temperament. So then they go into, depending on what the stimuli is, or who's pushing their button.
00:09:28.640 --> 00:09:42.380 Nancy Parsons: then they react in certain ways, you know, and so… but it's really interesting. And the… you know, you don't get that many leaders that are so totally out of control as the one I just… Peter, that I just mentioned as an example.
00:09:42.520 --> 00:10:03.770 Nancy Parsons: But there are… there are leaders who do lose it, or do say things inappropriately, and then try to take their words back, or they don't realize that they've offended people. You know, we talk about the toxic workplace. Well, hello risks! It's because the risk factors are just all over the place. They don't know what they are, and then there's not accountability either, so there kind of needs to be coaching, understanding.
00:10:03.770 --> 00:10:22.159 Nancy Parsons: self-awareness. One of our, clients in medical device said the best thing for them was getting a vocabulary. So they understood, they could recognize when they, when they were starting to go that way, they knew how to pull back, because they say, oh no, I'm starting to do this, or I'm, you know… So, so self-knowledge is so important.
00:10:22.160 --> 00:10:40.020 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and I have to say that, having the vocabulary as a coach and consultant, and then also sharing the vocabulary with, people who might be supervising or overseeing that person also is also helpful. So, I remember one time
00:10:40.180 --> 00:10:59.299 Mira Brancu: when they were having, trouble, I was, you know, called in by an executive sponsor, a C-suite, and they were having trouble with this one leader. And the leader was really, like, very knowledgeable, very, talented, and very charismatic, but for some reason.
00:10:59.300 --> 00:11:05.770 Mira Brancu: Didn't get along, and people were constantly, complaining about this person.
00:11:05.860 --> 00:11:25.329 Mira Brancu: And so, you know, I had a chance to meet with that person, and I was like, check the box on grandiose, check the box on, you know, egotistical, check the box, like, I just had the language in my head, and so when I went back to the executive sponsor, I said, you know.
00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:30.320 Mira Brancu: You may not have had the language, but have you noticed
00:11:30.510 --> 00:11:34.079 Mira Brancu: That, you know, this leader tends to…
00:11:34.250 --> 00:11:52.210 Mira Brancu: cut people off, bully people, you know, insert themselves where, you know, they don't necessarily belong, minimize and invalidate people, and, you know, those are just the words. How does that feel to you when I describe, like.
00:11:52.250 --> 00:11:58.929 Mira Brancu: in one word, what this is actually… what is actually happening. And, you know, they were taken aback, and they're like, wow.
00:11:59.090 --> 00:12:08.979 Mira Brancu: you know, we were giving this person a lot of leeway because we just thought, like, they're charismatic, they're very smart, they're probably… and I said.
00:12:09.430 --> 00:12:21.189 Mira Brancu: it sounds like you need to give some really specific feedback, like, when you do this, it is this. When you are cutting people off, it's belittling, so that they know.
00:12:21.890 --> 00:12:31.679 Nancy Parsons: Yeah, and they just think they're on a roll, they're just going, and they don't realize in that case, you know, and that's kind of a moving against, being too aggressive, talking over people.
00:12:31.680 --> 00:12:32.170 Mira Brancu: Right.
00:12:32.170 --> 00:12:49.880 Nancy Parsons: And unfortunately, many leaders do that. That's a predominant that moving against profile is what we see more frequently, right? So, you're right, I mean, and until you can help them take it apart a little bit, dissect it and understand what they're doing, and the impact it has on others, most important.
00:12:49.880 --> 00:12:57.500 Nancy Parsons: when you do this, you know, I actually, like, for example, the egotist, that person that you're describing.
00:12:57.590 --> 00:13:06.160 Nancy Parsons: I'm at the point now, too, when I'm coaching them, I just love to give them rope, so that they'll… they'll show their egotism to me as I'm asking them a lot of questions.
00:13:06.750 --> 00:13:16.769 Nancy Parsons: Then when we get there, then I say, you know, you were… you were rather condescending, or you made these statements. That was unusual. You know, I'm here as your…
00:13:16.920 --> 00:13:31.799 Nancy Parsons: executive coach, and you're coming across to me in this way. What are you doing on the job? You know, if you're… if you're, like, pushing and trying to intimidate me, I think, you know, this obviously is not going to be effective in the workplace with your… with your team.
00:13:31.800 --> 00:13:36.350 Mira Brancu: God, I would love to be a fly on the wall, Nancy, just listening to you give that kind of feedback.
00:13:36.350 --> 00:13:43.590 Nancy Parsons: But, you know, it's so funny, because I… it's like I… it's like, I don't know if you've ever fished, and you're throwing some line out, you're just letting them… and you're just like….
00:13:43.590 --> 00:13:45.540 Mira Brancu: They're just biting and biting.
00:13:45.540 --> 00:13:59.379 Nancy Parsons: But it's the patience. The coach has to have the patience to sit back and let it go, so then when you get there, you can give them vivid examples, hold the mirror up to them and say, I'm telling you, I didn't feel good when you were talking to me this way.
00:13:59.380 --> 00:14:00.820 Mira Brancu: Yeah, amazing.
00:14:00.820 --> 00:14:13.269 Nancy Parsons: Yeah, and you have to do that with an egotist, because the nature of it is, they think they're kind of invincible, they're great, they're better than others and smarter, but you have to let them know, it's time to come down to Earth, this doesn't play well.
00:14:13.270 --> 00:14:16.280 Mira Brancu: You know, and it's actually offensive or off-putting.
00:14:16.280 --> 00:14:25.050 Nancy Parsons: You know. So, I know, it's terrible, but over all these years, I've kind of developed different muscles in that way. That's amazing.
00:14:25.050 --> 00:14:38.389 Mira Brancu: going to be another podcast, for sure, is how to speak with an egotist about their behavior. So, we are reaching an ad break. When we come back.
00:14:38.570 --> 00:14:50.579 Mira Brancu: Let's, sort of finish up with the egotist in particular, because there's kind of a, you know, unique aspect to it, and then let's go backwards to some less egregious
00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:51.960 Mira Brancu: Sort of, …
00:14:51.960 --> 00:15:14.150 Mira Brancu: behaviors and risk factors that we might not catch, because they're so underlying. You're nearing an ad break here with us. You're listening to The Hard Skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Nancy Parsons. We air on Tuesdays at 5 p.m. Eastern. If you're listening or watching us right now, you'll find us on LinkedIn or YouTube.
00:15:14.150 --> 00:15:17.259 Mira Brancu: at talkradio.nyc, and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:17:30.870 --> 00:17:42.909 Mira Brancu: Welcome, welcome back to The Hard Skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Nancy Parsons of CDR3 Assessment Suite and CDR Companies. And, …
00:17:43.230 --> 00:17:53.570 Mira Brancu: We've been deep diving a little bit into one of the 11 risk factors, the egotist, so we might as well, hear about
00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:57.290 Mira Brancu: You, you mentioned the egotist is part of…
00:17:57.420 --> 00:18:06.939 Mira Brancu: the set of… subset of risk factors that fall under the moving against category. There's 3 general categories.
00:18:07.170 --> 00:18:17.450 Mira Brancu: That, that cross over, with these 11 risk factors. What are the other risk factors under the moving against type?
00:18:18.020 --> 00:18:19.320 Mira Brancu: And you'll need to unmute.
00:18:21.540 --> 00:18:32.549 Nancy Parsons: Yes, we have upstager, somebody that over-talks, as you were giving that example, somebody that talks too much and doesn't listen and jumps in. And then we have the eccentric.
00:18:32.770 --> 00:18:34.379 Nancy Parsons: And Rule Breaker.
00:18:34.580 --> 00:18:52.029 Nancy Parsons: Okay? So they're all moving against, fighting back, pushing, being overly aggressive, possibly using hostile approaches to get their way. They're stubborn, they're dug in, and interestingly, over the many, many years, and even, well, centuries.
00:18:52.070 --> 00:19:06.730 Nancy Parsons: That's how leaders were. They were over-aggressive, they were hostile, so it became natural for leaders to have these behaviors under stress. They got bossier, they got pushier, etc. And I'm smarter and have this big bravado.
00:19:07.100 --> 00:19:21.609 Nancy Parsons: But that was kind of the lay of the land of leadership, so many leaders today still have that. And interestingly, so these are the things that show up under stress, right? So, stress, pressure, conflict. So, even when we're looking at succession planning.
00:19:21.950 --> 00:19:31.119 Nancy Parsons: you know, leaders are expected to act that way to some degree, so it's kind of accepted, even though it often shouldn't be. Does that make sense?
00:19:31.120 --> 00:19:36.880 Mira Brancu: I feel like we are currently over-socializing in that direction.
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:42.979 Nancy Parsons: Yes. As if it is the sign of a quote-unquote strong leader to do these things.
00:19:43.320 --> 00:19:59.499 Nancy Parsons: Yes, and that's why men are promoted more than women in my research-based book that you mentioned. Women are getting overshadowed, because they have the next category of moving away. So under stress, they shut down and think and want to be 100% right. Meanwhile, their male counterparts are yakking and yelling and…
00:19:59.500 --> 00:20:04.910 Nancy Parsons: Being aggressive and saying things that might or might not be so, but they win the day in the perception battle.
00:20:04.910 --> 00:20:11.309 Nancy Parsons: But they… that doesn't mean… and often, they're not nearly as strong a leader as the women that get bypassed. Yeah.
00:20:11.310 --> 00:20:25.000 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and it's, it is fascinating that, men are more socialized to move against, and that that is then, rewarded through promotion, but women, if they
00:20:25.140 --> 00:20:27.570 Mira Brancu: Try to do that move against stuff.
00:20:27.830 --> 00:20:32.309 Nancy Parsons: They are then negatively judged. Instead, they are….
00:20:32.310 --> 00:20:40.970 Mira Brancu: Socialized to… either, you know, move away or move towards, and, …
00:20:41.080 --> 00:20:48.049 Mira Brancu: But that is not… Valued as much as the moving again, or it's not rewarded as much, right?
00:20:48.050 --> 00:21:02.840 Nancy Parsons: Yeah, right, and in our research, what we found, though, CEO women, not just corporate executives, CEO women had the same risks as men, which were egotist upstagers and rule breakers. So those women are moving and shaking and fighting, and they make it to those top positions.
00:21:03.050 --> 00:21:05.789 Nancy Parsons: And so they're more similar, if you will, in their….
00:21:05.790 --> 00:21:06.240 Mira Brancu: Interesting.
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:19.710 Nancy Parsons: under pressure, so they're making it through. Now, corporate executive women tended to at least have upstagers, so they didn't shut down, but they weren't egotists. But the ones who made it to the very top, what we saw was parallel to the men.
00:21:19.710 --> 00:21:20.030 Mira Brancu: Dang!
00:21:20.050 --> 00:21:21.010 Nancy Parsons: Good surprise.
00:21:21.010 --> 00:21:37.620 Mira Brancu: Yeah, no, now that I'm reflecting on it, that is still what you see, in society as well, like in politics and stuff like that. One thing I want to pull out from what you said, because I think people will miss it, is it's under stress.
00:21:37.620 --> 00:21:41.089 Nancy Parsons: Yes. The way that we started this conversation.
00:21:41.270 --> 00:21:50.459 Mira Brancu: I mentioned, like, everybody has it. And so you might be thinking, I don't have any… none of this resonates, I don't have any of these risk factors, right? And, …
00:21:50.790 --> 00:22:09.609 Mira Brancu: the reality is, if you are generally a, you know, low-stress person, well-adjusted, not phased in most situations, you might not see these risk factors come up for, a long time. So this is really, like, when you're under high stress.
00:22:10.040 --> 00:22:19.160 Mira Brancu: then what coping mechanisms do you use? And so, we talked a lot about, the moving against, …
00:22:19.280 --> 00:22:25.770 Mira Brancu: Let's talk next about the, the next, sort of, …
00:22:26.270 --> 00:22:38.070 Mira Brancu: category of risk factors, the… the moving away. Right. Moving away. Now, what I was very interested in when I read your e-book is that,
00:22:38.330 --> 00:22:48.460 Mira Brancu: Number one, you said the, detached style among them, are seen among many people in STEM industries.
00:22:48.910 --> 00:22:49.390 Nancy Parsons: Yes.
00:22:49.390 --> 00:22:51.929 Mira Brancu: And, that…
00:22:52.040 --> 00:22:58.970 Mira Brancu: That's the… that's the crew I usually work with, and I totally agree, that's what we see. So, …
00:22:59.290 --> 00:23:00.659 Mira Brancu: what happens…
00:23:00.940 --> 00:23:08.580 Mira Brancu: for… well, let's… let's cover the… all of the ones under the moving away. What are those, in addition to detached?
00:23:08.580 --> 00:23:14.270 Nancy Parsons: Yeah, so you have Hyper Moody, you have Warrior, cynic.
00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:22.440 Nancy Parsons: and false advocate, okay? And I want to tell you something about… you don't… we don't intuitively think this. We think that people that are aggressive are just…
00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:24.980 Nancy Parsons: you know, burning things down. However.
00:23:24.980 --> 00:23:47.840 Nancy Parsons: The detached, the moving away, can be more dangerous to the organization, can be more damaging, because people are holding back. When they need to be talking, they're not. They're going inside their head, they're moving away, they're isolating, they're shutting down. So those important, critical discussions are not happening, or debates, you know, dialogue to get to the right place. You know, I see it, for example.
00:23:48.010 --> 00:23:49.860 Nancy Parsons: In the energy industry.
00:23:50.350 --> 00:24:13.989 Nancy Parsons: they're all STEM, you know, so they're both detached and cynic, so when things are hitting the fan, they're not good communicators about what they're doing and what value they're bringing. They shut down when they're attacked, and that… you need some give and take, you need to be able to articulate, well, we make every product in your room to some degree, we touch that in some way. I mean, I'm just saying, what we saw was they lost their voice.
00:24:13.990 --> 00:24:17.149 Nancy Parsons: It's because, as a group, that's how they are.
00:24:17.150 --> 00:24:28.510 Nancy Parsons: So they kind of hide, and they don't have enough people that will push back and articulate. So that… but same in medical and healthcare. You know, if they're not talking about the issues,
00:24:28.510 --> 00:24:46.519 Nancy Parsons: It's awful. I just worked with a team in their AI tech technology team, C-suite, and they were all false advocates. Every one of them, right? And what was interesting, when we did our team development session, they'd all been coached first, so they were self-aware. We come in, and they realize this, and they're going like.
00:24:46.520 --> 00:25:05.340 Nancy Parsons: oh my gosh, we never confront problems. We all go and whine to our own teams, but we never, together, deal with the issues up front. So they, they came up with a new terms of engagement, rules of engagement for each other, that they were going to express and go around and really talk about things that were on their mind that they hadn't brought up before.
00:25:05.370 --> 00:25:10.810 Nancy Parsons: To start to build that muscle to learn how to be open, because I've always been so closed off.
00:25:10.810 --> 00:25:19.710 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I love that. And so, you know, we had started talking about, like, one end of the continuum is this kind of, like, egregious, in-your-face.
00:25:19.710 --> 00:25:20.190 Nancy Parsons: Peace!
00:25:20.190 --> 00:25:30.789 Mira Brancu: see it. Yeah. So I'm assuming the other end of the spectrum, where, like, it's sort of, like, underlying, it's not as egregious, is this style.
00:25:30.910 --> 00:25:35.620 Nancy Parsons: But it sounds like what you're saying is actually just as egregious.
00:25:35.620 --> 00:25:58.910 Nancy Parsons: Yeah, and the other thing is, it alienates trust, because you think somebody's on your… you think they're with you, and they're not, they're going doing something else. So we never get things hashed out at the table. It can be… it can undermine the best of companies, make them fail. So it's… it's the silent saboteur, you know, it's happening, and nobody's understanding each other, and we all go do our own things, and we're not… we're not walking together.
00:25:58.970 --> 00:26:14.250 Nancy Parsons: You know, and there's a lot of fear with that, too. Fear of failure, fear of saying the wrong thing. So getting people more comfortable, feeling psychologically safe, whatever, that's the group. And then, if you're… if you have a good number of those, and then you have the other ones that are very aggressive.
00:26:14.470 --> 00:26:32.080 Nancy Parsons: It shuts it down. You know, just… so you're… and often, and what I have found too, some of your best thinkers, your best leaders, executives, are those that are more quiet. We need them in the conversation, we need their viewpoint and their experience, but yet, they just… they kind of go away. They may be sitting there, but they're not talking.
00:26:32.080 --> 00:26:47.269 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, some of the things that we, you know, talk about, when I do team development around this kind of style, that helps
00:26:47.410 --> 00:26:56.169 Mira Brancu: Folks who get, you know, detached or move away or shut down, to help them understand the level of
00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:03.759 Mira Brancu: harm that it causes is, number one, we talk about Patrick Lencioni's Artificial harmony.
00:27:03.890 --> 00:27:20.280 Mira Brancu: Right? Getting along just to get along does not help you, function at the highest level as, you know, a team or an organization, and it undercuts your possibilities for innovation and performance. Number two.
00:27:20.360 --> 00:27:28.069 Mira Brancu: you know, it comes from… usually it comes from a good place. Like, you're not wanting to offend, you're not wanting to cause harm.
00:27:28.150 --> 00:27:37.589 Mira Brancu: Right. But, if you're going to then talk about the meeting, after the meeting, about the meeting, then you are undermining.
00:27:37.590 --> 00:27:39.020 Nancy Parsons: Yes. It's higher.
00:27:39.260 --> 00:27:45.810 Mira Brancu: process, right? So you're actually causing more harm by talking about each other behind each other's backs.
00:27:45.810 --> 00:27:46.480 Nancy Parsons: Absolutely.
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:52.489 Mira Brancu: Or not addressing an issue and letting it fester and fester and fester until you just blow up.
00:27:52.760 --> 00:28:12.829 Nancy Parsons: Right, right, no. And so, when people become self-aware that they're all doing this, or most of them, then they can say, like, if you were… if you were a false advocate, I can say, okay, Mayor, what do you think? And you go, okay, that's great, Nancy. And I'm like, no, no, what do you think could go wrong, or have you looked at it another way? I'm gonna draw you out, because I know your first… your first response to me is like.
00:28:12.830 --> 00:28:29.369 Nancy Parsons: I don't want to offend you, and your idea stinks, but I'm not going to tell you. You know, but this way, we learn how to talk to each other, that we just don't take that head nod, or kind of, you know, compliance, versus, tell me what you really think. How can we… how can we make this product better, or this service?
00:28:29.370 --> 00:28:40.600 Mira Brancu: That's right. Now, in order to receive that and make me feel safe, I would need to have you as my team member, who's drawing me out, then
00:28:40.710 --> 00:28:45.760 Mira Brancu: not hold a grudge for me opening up and sharing that I have a difference of opinion.
00:28:45.760 --> 00:29:01.789 Nancy Parsons: Absolutely. Oh, yeah, you have to value it, because we need it. That's the whole point. And so I have teams actually work through the risks together. They have to talk about how it's shown up on the team, actual examples, and what has been the impact, what was the toll.
00:29:01.840 --> 00:29:18.910 Nancy Parsons: And now, the brainstorming happens of, what are we gonna do differently? So they have to come up with behaviors. The thing is, too, and I know you saw this in the book, but you have to practice those new behaviors, too. Because if you tend to go quiet and shut down, even though cognitively you go, okay, I won't shut down anymore.
00:29:18.910 --> 00:29:25.169 Nancy Parsons: Yes, you will. Unless you start practicing and have some little, you know, notes with you and practice when it's safe.
00:29:25.170 --> 00:29:42.250 Nancy Parsons: away from the controversy, and learn what I call just some, pivot phrases. How can I jump in that conversation in a way that keeps me safe, that I… that I'm heard, that I can be heard? That's a… you know, that has some merit. I haven't given enough thought yet.
00:29:42.250 --> 00:29:49.170 Nancy Parsons: But have you also considered this? Well, if I say that, then I'm not offending you, and I'm like… and I'm not being unkind.
00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:54.779 Mira Brancu: Yes. So, in the book, we have a lot of pivot phrases and ideas for people.
00:29:54.780 --> 00:30:09.950 Nancy Parsons: And you only need 3 or 4 pivot phrases, really, to get you going, to practice with it. And that is if you're any of the moving away, false advocate, you know, worrier, especially worriers, because they don't want to jump in unless they're 100% right.
00:30:09.950 --> 00:30:19.560 Nancy Parsons: You know, and getting them to say, it's okay. Yeah, and to even say, you know, I haven't thought this through fully, but at this point, I'm thinking about this.
00:30:19.790 --> 00:30:25.350 Nancy Parsons: So I give myself permission to be wrong, right? Or… or be partway right, so….
00:30:25.350 --> 00:30:40.959 Mira Brancu: Love it. Okay, you… we are reaching yet another ad break. I don't know how, but we're just getting started. When we come back from this ad break, let's move into the final grouping of the risk factors moving toward.
00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:47.570 Nancy Parsons: So, you're listening to The Hard Skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Nancy Parsons, and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:32:50.220 --> 00:33:05.099 Mira Brancu: Welcome, welcome back to the Hard Skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Nancy Parsons. Okay, Nancy, so let's move into the last category, moving toward… there are only a couple in here, but I want to start with one of them.
00:33:05.380 --> 00:33:10.740 Mira Brancu: Which is perfectionism, because when I read in your book, That you wrote.
00:33:11.080 --> 00:33:23.950 Mira Brancu: Most people assume that leaders are more likely to derail due to toxicity or abrasiveness, But… Perfectionism.
00:33:24.230 --> 00:33:27.910 Mira Brancu: Is the more common reason for derailment.
00:33:28.330 --> 00:33:37.920 Mira Brancu: I thought that was absolutely fascinating, so I would love to hear more about how this is so, and then we'll get into the other ones under the moving toward.
00:33:38.310 --> 00:33:39.790 Mira Brancu: And you'll have to unmute again.
00:33:45.030 --> 00:34:01.090 Nancy Parsons: The, yeah, perfectionism, it is surprising, because we think, you know, people that are detailed, etc, that as they go to higher levels, particularly C-suite, it doesn't work. So they tend to have what we call high prudence and high perfectionism inside their
00:34:01.090 --> 00:34:05.459 Nancy Parsons: their strengths, but under risks, they're usually above 90.
00:34:05.490 --> 00:34:15.450 Nancy Parsons: in their risks, and maybe they have worrying and cynic, too, but primarily it's the perfectionism. I have seen CEOs, CFOs, several CHROs.
00:34:15.460 --> 00:34:28.890 Nancy Parsons: derail, and others, due to perfectionism. They can't let go, they micromanage, they're making decisions 5 levels down. I was coaching a CEO in Canada in retail pharmacy.
00:34:28.889 --> 00:34:47.359 Nancy Parsons: And he was requiring these… all his execs to give him reports every day, even on weekends, all the time. And I said, I said, George, you have to stop this. We're getting… you're getting complaints, it's not working, this is high level, you know, and this is across all of Canada. And he said, but I want the information, I need it. I said, why do you need it?
00:34:47.530 --> 00:34:51.219 Nancy Parsons: He's like, because then I know what's going on. I said.
00:34:51.460 --> 00:34:55.159 Nancy Parsons: You can't do it. At this level, you can't do it. He wouldn't stop.
00:34:55.540 --> 00:35:10.780 Nancy Parsons: He was let go. You can't do that. I had, I think I might have… in the book, I had a CHRO who actually… we were doing a program, Authentic Leadership, and… and she didn't… she's like, don't even use a Bellman, because we don't want to pay the tip.
00:35:11.160 --> 00:35:19.420 Nancy Parsons: Seriously. And I'm like, we're using the Bellman. I get boxes. You know? But I mean, these little things, it sounds silly, but she's doing that with her people, too.
00:35:19.610 --> 00:35:20.000 Nancy Parsons: He was like.
00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:36.829 Nancy Parsons: And so what happens is, sometimes people are great individual performers, as you know, but they're not well-suited for leadership when they're that perfectionistic. And so, because they're too detailed, they can't let go, they're not strategic. You know, and, you know, and I'll be honest with you.
00:35:36.830 --> 00:35:54.480 Nancy Parsons: They are the hardest for me to coach, to be successful, because it's almost like that obsessive-compulsive behavior, and I think it almost takes therapy, which I don't do, I do executive coaching, and it's because, you know, they're ingrained behaviors, and that's their go-to.
00:35:54.630 --> 00:36:11.469 Nancy Parsons: The other thing there, they're so controlling. I've had to let go clients because they want to get in designs and everything too much, where they… or you charge them more because they're making you redo work, you know what I'm saying? So they can be annoying as clients. The other thing that really hurts them, too.
00:36:11.470 --> 00:36:19.719 Nancy Parsons: And this is what we see, especially with our new digital avatar coach, right? They're risk aversive. Oh my goodness.
00:36:19.720 --> 00:36:28.019 Nancy Parsons: They are policy, procedure people. We don't deviate, we don't change. So, unfortunately, I've written a couple articles, too, on the HR.
00:36:28.020 --> 00:36:38.020 Nancy Parsons: profiles, they tend to be high perfectionist, high warrior, so they're not as strategic as they need to be. So, you know, it's really… and it's tough.
00:36:38.030 --> 00:36:48.750 Nancy Parsons: you know, with all this technology and AI and everything else, how do we communicate and help these folks feel comfortable? Because they're not. Now, they're not all derailing. I'm talking about the ones that are super high.
00:36:48.750 --> 00:36:49.140 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:36:49.140 --> 00:37:02.660 Nancy Parsons: But we're seeing still those trends, and they're hard to work with, so the people in the HR technology or coaching space, they all tell me, my peers, we do workarounds. We can't work with HR, because they just stop everything.
00:37:02.660 --> 00:37:03.139 Mira Brancu: Because there won'.
00:37:03.140 --> 00:37:21.429 Nancy Parsons: uncomfortable. But anyway, yeah, so you can just see, it is surprising. I went through my files, and I have, like, 10 that have derailed. And I… same with you, you know, I hadn't really been adding it up, but it's truly these people that are rigid, they can't adapt, they're controlling, and they want it done their way, too. You don't have any latitude.
00:37:21.430 --> 00:37:25.819 Mira Brancu: Why is it that, The folks with the…
00:37:26.010 --> 00:37:37.490 Mira Brancu: moving against, and especially egotists and upstagers, why don't they derail as often? Or what… what is that sort of, like, protects them?
00:37:37.490 --> 00:37:42.109 Nancy Parsons: That's a great question, because normally, they're more manipulative.
00:37:44.060 --> 00:37:59.460 Nancy Parsons: And they see it coming. They're not gonna wait. The perfectionist is just going to stay in there, steady as you go, steady as you go. But the, you know, person that's aggressive typically is more, you know, a little more imaginative, all these other things. They're going to be, you know, more… so they read the tea leaves.
00:37:59.460 --> 00:38:06.410 Nancy Parsons: They know, but you'll see them. If you look at their resumes, every usually one to two years, they're in a new role.
00:38:06.410 --> 00:38:06.960 Mira Brancu: Because they killed….
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:07.670 Nancy Parsons: Ship!
00:38:08.300 --> 00:38:19.829 Nancy Parsons: or before they're let go. So they very seldom are caught up in that, you know. Yeah, because they're brighter than that, and they're moving along, and they're hitting a new target.
00:38:19.830 --> 00:38:24.619 Mira Brancu: Got it. So… so we don't call it derailing only because…
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:27.669 Mira Brancu: They move themselves out of the role into something.
00:38:27.670 --> 00:38:45.209 Nancy Parsons: They pre-derail. They pre-derail. So they jump, and they move more frequently, but they create, often, much more damage. So, to your point, it doesn't mean that they're… that this is cool and okay. It's not. And, you know, and you'll recall, I mean, we have some even
00:38:45.230 --> 00:39:05.099 Nancy Parsons: dangerous profiles in terms of undermining and stalking or stealth situations and organizations. So, meanwhile, you know, if they… they can do real damage to an organization. So that's why having assessments like this at the front end, even before you onboard, and certainly before you promote, and then always for development.
00:39:05.100 --> 00:39:17.229 Nancy Parsons: is so important, because here's the other thing, and I was just thinking about it. Some of these people, too, that are the manipulative, moving against, at times, they can also be the most charming and charismatic.
00:39:17.870 --> 00:39:20.350 Nancy Parsons: You don't see it coming, right?
00:39:20.350 --> 00:39:21.639 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:39:21.640 --> 00:39:22.340 Nancy Parsons: Yeah.
00:39:22.510 --> 00:39:34.330 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and what I'm reflecting on right now, as you're talking, is, both, like, even if they're not derailing, right, both of these types.
00:39:34.780 --> 00:39:36.900 Mira Brancu: can cause
00:39:37.260 --> 00:39:50.150 Mira Brancu: psychological damage. So, whether you are overtly manipulating people, and charming people, and sort of, making things work out for yourself,
00:39:50.270 --> 00:39:57.119 Mira Brancu: Which is, you know, can cause, you know, a lot of psychological damage for your team members. …
00:39:57.600 --> 00:40:02.750 Mira Brancu: Or, you are… You know, micromanaging
00:40:02.840 --> 00:40:20.189 Mira Brancu: to the point where your team feels like you're on top of them, stifling them, not trusting them, that also is psychologically damaging to them. So both is toxic, like, we think of toxic only as the sort of in-your-face abrasive, but both are really toxic.
00:40:20.190 --> 00:40:29.509 Nancy Parsons: Right, and that moving away is more abandonment. It's not toxic, it's abandoning your team and your responsibilities and your business, because you've shut down, you've isolated.
00:40:29.510 --> 00:40:31.729 Mira Brancu: I'm glad that you mentioned that, because
00:40:31.790 --> 00:40:53.370 Mira Brancu: That is what I'm trying to coach around now as a preventative, a proactive measure. I did it during COVID, and I'm doing it again now, where the, this subset of people are not realizing that they're shutting down, but they're saying, like, I don't have information, so why have town halls?
00:40:53.370 --> 00:40:58.470 Mira Brancu: Well, your people need to see you present and stable and consistent.
00:40:58.470 --> 00:40:59.470 Mira Brancu: That's weird.
00:40:59.530 --> 00:41:10.249 Mira Brancu: they need to feel stable because they feel unstable, and you not showing up because you don't have the… all the answers does not help at all, right? That is the kind of shutting down, shutting out that is
00:41:10.330 --> 00:41:17.020 Mira Brancu: They're not realizing the effect that that has on people right now, and in uncertainty and instability.
00:41:17.240 --> 00:41:36.780 Nancy Parsons: Right, and you know, and with this, if we know we're working with a group of STEM or people who are quiet, then the development needs to be around those issues, and how to communicate and why it's so important, and whether you're doing one-to-one coaching, or you're doing team training, or whatever, you've got to have them work through it, and come up with ways, and underst… like you said, too, earlier, understand the impact of when you're not doing this.
00:41:37.070 --> 00:41:39.310 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah. Well, ….
00:41:39.310 --> 00:41:40.330 Nancy Parsons: Let's….
00:41:40.340 --> 00:41:45.199 Mira Brancu: now start, like, applying this in different ways. …
00:41:45.340 --> 00:41:52.850 Mira Brancu: Let's say a leader identifies, you know, one of these derailers, or gets some, you know, like, assessment from you,
00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:58.079 Mira Brancu: what's one Step that they could take.
00:41:58.370 --> 00:42:04.040 Mira Brancu: To start preventing it in the future from happening again.
00:42:04.470 --> 00:42:15.999 Nancy Parsons: So, in the book, I actually have a template they can use, or we can always email it out, too. It's a little matrix they fill out. What do I think… what is my risk? Okay, so maybe I think I'm a false advocate.
00:42:16.370 --> 00:42:20.100 Nancy Parsons: When's the last couple times it showed up? And you're gonna write down a couple of examples.
00:42:20.170 --> 00:42:36.470 Nancy Parsons: what was the consequence of the… or what triggered it? What caused me to have this reaction? Well, Bob was too pushy, or whatever. So, you write that down, so your little matrix. The consequence. What was the result of me not speaking up when I should have?
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:40.770 Nancy Parsons: Maybe we made the wrong decision, we went the wrong way, and it was a disaster.
00:42:40.810 --> 00:42:47.099 Nancy Parsons: And then the real money is, we have the whole thing, what can I do differently? And coming up with actual
00:42:47.380 --> 00:43:05.820 Nancy Parsons: action plans, and they don't… they don't need to be lengthy, just some behavioral shifts, what I call little pivots, to help us in those tough moments. But now, since I know it, and I know my… when Bob comes in the room, and I know he's maybe blustery and all this other stuff, I'm gonna have a plan, because I'm anticipating I normally go quiet.
00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:18.410 Nancy Parsons: But I'm not going to go quiet, because I do have a plan, and I've practiced what I can say to jump in the conversation. See? So you're going to incre… what I say, increase your batting average. You're going to do better, you're gonna start recognizing, number one.
00:43:18.460 --> 00:43:33.949 Nancy Parsons: What triggers me? What's the stimuli that causes me to go there? And keep in mind, one of the other things is sometimes you have risks that are contrary. I can give a personal example. I'm an upstager, and I'm detached. You think, how can that be?
00:43:34.580 --> 00:43:37.330 Nancy Parsons: It's different stimuli. Different things that happen.
00:43:37.330 --> 00:43:37.890 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:43:37.890 --> 00:43:51.830 Nancy Parsons: cause me to maybe talk too much, that I have to pull back. Other things, maybe, if my feelings are hurt, or I'm getting under pressure too much, I just shut down and go away, and I don't talk to people. I know you find that shocking, Mira, but it's just….
00:43:51.830 --> 00:43:56.750 Mira Brancu: I find it absolutely shocking, yes.
00:43:56.750 --> 00:44:14.870 Nancy Parsons: Frequency! Frequency is upstairs, right? Yes. But intensity, like, my husband knows if something's wrong, because I don't talk, right? Something is going… no, but I'm just saying, so it's not always just too much of a strength, or the opposite of a strength. Sometimes we have these unusual risks of the 11 that come out.
00:44:14.950 --> 00:44:20.210 Nancy Parsons: That don't seem to have any pattern. So I just want to let you know, it's like an anomaly, but it's there.
00:44:20.210 --> 00:44:31.979 Mira Brancu: Yeah, no, I mean, when I took this assessment the first time, I was shocked about the false advocate. It didn't make any sense whatsoever to me, because usually.
00:44:32.270 --> 00:44:34.820 Mira Brancu: I mean, people call me the truth teller, like, I….
00:44:34.820 --> 00:44:35.320 Nancy Parsons: Right, right!
00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:43.529 Mira Brancu: usually, I just say, hey, I don't like that, or, you know, here's my opinion, even if you don't want it or didn't ask, you know?
00:44:43.530 --> 00:44:43.850 Nancy Parsons: Stop.
00:44:43.850 --> 00:44:47.540 Mira Brancu: And so, it didn't make any sense, but because of the fact that
00:44:47.830 --> 00:44:57.780 Mira Brancu: you know, I was sort of, like, explained, this is what it looks like, this is what could happen, it's under high stress. I started looking for it.
00:44:57.790 --> 00:45:08.070 Mira Brancu: and looking closely, when does it happen? And it was… it's definitely under very specific circumstances, and now that I, you know, know it's there.
00:45:08.350 --> 00:45:15.349 Mira Brancu: I know what to do with it, and when it's gonna come on, like, oh, I really… this is what I wanna do, I better not, because….
00:45:15.350 --> 00:45:15.790 Nancy Parsons: Yeah.
00:45:15.790 --> 00:45:22.050 Mira Brancu: you know, that's a derailleur, right? So, it is incredible, even for… I'm just saying, like, even for people
00:45:22.430 --> 00:45:23.290 Mira Brancu: like…
00:45:23.460 --> 00:45:32.270 Mira Brancu: You who have created an assessment, you know, and know the ins and outs, and me, like, as a clinical psychologist who have had
00:45:32.530 --> 00:45:40.560 Mira Brancu: Billions of tests done on me, so much insight, reflection, coaching on me, therapy on me, blah blah blah.
00:45:40.560 --> 00:45:52.389 Mira Brancu: there are still surprises you can have about yourself when you take these assessments. So, we're reaching an ad break. I just realized that we never got to the last risk factor under
00:45:52.390 --> 00:46:05.570 Mira Brancu: this moving towards, so when we come back from the ad break, we're going to get to that last one, and then a little bit more practical tips again. You're listening to the Hard Skills with me, Dr. Mira Brancou, and our guest today, Nancy Parsons, and we'll be right back.
00:47:51.360 --> 00:48:02.040 Mira Brancu: Welcome, welcome back to the hard skills. So, we talked about Moving against… The moving against…
00:48:02.200 --> 00:48:09.750 Mira Brancu: Categories include the risk factors egotist, upstager, eccentric, rule breaker.
00:48:10.060 --> 00:48:10.530 Nancy Parsons: Right.
00:48:10.530 --> 00:48:13.560 Mira Brancu: We talked about the moving away category.
00:48:14.200 --> 00:48:19.049 Mira Brancu: Hyper moody, warrior, cynic, false advocate, detached.
00:48:19.270 --> 00:48:20.240 Mira Brancu: Five of them.
00:48:20.390 --> 00:48:24.079 Mira Brancu: The last one is moving toward…
00:48:24.630 --> 00:48:28.319 Mira Brancu: And there's really only two. We talked about perfectionism.
00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:28.920 Nancy Parsons: Right.
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:30.470 Mira Brancu: What is the last one?
00:48:31.090 --> 00:48:50.010 Nancy Parsons: The last one is pleaser, okay? And so, seeking approval, wanting approval, especially upwards from a boss, but it can play out with peers and even direct reports, too. So, this is the person that doesn't set boundaries, can't say no, kind of that yes person. They're helpful to a fault at their own expense.
00:48:50.220 --> 00:49:15.120 Nancy Parsons: There are many women who have it. There are men who have it, too. I've coached a CEO who's had it, okay? So, a man who was CEO, so it… but more predominantly, we see it like in executive assistants. They jump through hoops for everyone, and they don't take care of themselves, and they're often working too many hours, burning out with your next subject, they burn out. So, they're the ones that really do need the assertiveness training. How do I learn to say no?
00:49:15.120 --> 00:49:19.810 Nancy Parsons: … And now, you know, they're… they're often…
00:49:19.970 --> 00:49:31.799 Nancy Parsons: absolutely great employees. They work really hard, they're great, you know… but what I always tell them, too, if I'm coaching them, don't work for an egotist, or at least one with low interpersonal, because they will take advantage of a pleaser, right?
00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:32.970 Mira Brancu: Oh.
00:49:32.970 --> 00:49:44.730 Nancy Parsons: Making sure they work… they have to be selective about their work culture, where they're working, that they have a good boss and a good team, so that they… and they have to learn how to not be so, you know, self-sacrificing.
00:49:44.730 --> 00:49:57.700 Mira Brancu: Yeah, also, I mean, the other downside that I see, especially if you're in a leadership role, is that you are likely to, say yes to all the things that your supervisor asks of you.
00:49:57.700 --> 00:50:06.320 Mira Brancu: Then, also somehow say, yes, or please your supervisees, but sometimes they are at
00:50:06.370 --> 00:50:16.090 Mira Brancu: you know, attention or misalignment, and sometimes you need to stick up for yourself with your boss. Sometimes you need to be, you know,
00:50:16.170 --> 00:50:32.479 Mira Brancu: hold people more accountable, and … it… it starts feeling, even though non-intentional, undermining when you keep saying, yes, everything, but in fact you can't meet everybody's needs, and your employees are most likely to feel frustrated with that kind of.
00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:40.509 Nancy Parsons: Exactly. It comes off as a lack of courage, a lack of standing up, and we expect our leaders to have some courage. Right.
00:50:40.510 --> 00:50:41.830 Mira Brancu: Decision ability.
00:50:41.830 --> 00:50:55.550 Nancy Parsons: It's one, it's one of those risks that really hold people back, where they're viewed as not leader-like when they're a pleaser, yet they could have, on their strengths, they could have great potential. So, it is one that they can work on, and I think make good progress.
00:50:55.550 --> 00:51:05.819 Nancy Parsons: You know, everyone's gonna slip every now and then. We have these risks, but if they're aware of it, and they really work on being more assertive and having their pivot phrases where they can… and setting boundaries.
00:51:05.820 --> 00:51:23.429 Nancy Parsons: They can make inroads, for sure, but most people don't realize they're doing it, you know, they know they just care so… they care so much, they want to work so hard, and then sometimes they're not having time for themselves, their families, and their life is very stressful, because they can't set those proper boundaries.
00:51:23.430 --> 00:51:25.999 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, …
00:51:26.580 --> 00:51:34.099 Mira Brancu: From a psychological perspective, these, these 11 risk factors that fall under the three categories.
00:51:34.200 --> 00:51:47.680 Mira Brancu: Moving against, moving away, moving toward, right, are coping strategies that we learn to succeed, survive, and based on the feedback that we get as, you know, you know, in early life, and
00:51:47.860 --> 00:51:57.880 Mira Brancu: If you caught it, moving against is like fight. Moving away is like flee and freeze, and moving toward is, like the…
00:51:58.200 --> 00:52:16.180 Mira Brancu: a fawn, when we have trauma responses or extreme, stress and threat, we fight, we flee, we freeze, or fawn. We don't hear about fawn a lot, but the fawning is like the Stockholm Sylodrome. Like, you bring people in to protect yourself.
00:52:16.180 --> 00:52:17.210 Nancy Parsons: Right, right.
00:52:17.210 --> 00:52:27.419 Mira Brancu: Right? And so, all of this is just us learning healthier habits over time about how to engage under conflict.
00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:45.180 Nancy Parsons: Yes, and stress, or even if we're tired sometimes, we'll resort to these things when we're not at our best. And this actually does go back to… we actually thought about calling it the ineffective coping strategies, but we felt that's too kind of psychobabble. But it goes back to Karen Horney's work in the 1950s.
00:52:45.180 --> 00:52:45.890 Mira Brancu: Yes.
00:52:45.890 --> 00:52:56.099 Nancy Parsons: you know, how we react under stress and conflict, the reactions. So, we do the factor analysis of the 11, and we have those 3 coping strategies.
00:52:56.100 --> 00:53:02.340 Mira Brancu: That's right, that's right. It's how we attach or detach from people. And, you know, so…
00:53:02.520 --> 00:53:10.789 Mira Brancu: As we are closing out, Nancy, if you could give leaders one sentence to remember.
00:53:11.080 --> 00:53:12.720 Mira Brancu: In the heat of the moment.
00:53:13.220 --> 00:53:18.239 Mira Brancu: So that they can catch themselves, or do something, what would that be?
00:53:19.420 --> 00:53:34.750 Nancy Parsons: Breathe, pause and breathe. When you start to feel that… the animation going up, you know, the emotional rise, or discomfort, or discomfort, if you can take, I know it sounds silly, 3 deep breaths, in and out, slowly.
00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:44.540 Nancy Parsons: It will… it will resettle you. You will be able to think again. We stop kind of thinking and we react. So if we can pull back a little on that immediate emotion.
00:53:44.870 --> 00:53:50.070 Nancy Parsons: And even they… there's… there's others, get up and get a glass of water, whatever, but break…
00:53:50.600 --> 00:53:54.070 Nancy Parsons: Somehow take time out for yourself in that moment. Pause.
00:53:54.250 --> 00:54:00.879 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah. Get a separation between the event and what you're trying to do about the event.
00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:01.920 Nancy Parsons: Yes!
00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:03.810 Mira Brancu: Absolutely.
00:54:03.810 --> 00:54:17.480 Nancy Parsons: And notice it. Notice when I get… when I'm feeling pushed, or somebody's, you know, getting onto me. How do I react, and how can I… how can I pull that back a little bit? How can I be more thoughtful versus reactive?
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:25.710 Mira Brancu: Excellent, excellent. How can people find out more about your work and CDR companies and, what it offers?
00:54:25.710 --> 00:54:33.019 Nancy Parsons: Yes, so our website is CDRAassessmentgroup.com, and if they want the,
00:54:33.020 --> 00:54:49.890 Nancy Parsons: the free book, the e-book on all the 11 risks, it's under our books section. You'll see a tab for books. We have tons of articles, too, probably over 100 articles on all these different risks and so forth on the website as you go through the blog and other things, so there's plenty of resources there.
00:54:49.890 --> 00:54:58.570 Nancy Parsons: You can always email us at, you know, my email is nparsons at CDRCompanies, or, or just,
00:54:58.790 --> 00:55:08.859 Nancy Parsons: order at CDR Companies if you want to reach just one of our folks. I'm on LinkedIn, you're welcome to link with me and ask me any questions, and I'm happy to help if I can.
00:55:09.180 --> 00:55:20.199 Mira Brancu: Awesome, awesome. So, audience, what did you take away from today? And more importantly, what is one small change you can implement this week
00:55:20.380 --> 00:55:31.900 Mira Brancu: Based on what you learned from Nancy, she's got… she's given you a lot to work with here. So, share it with us any insights that you've gotten on LinkedIn.
00:55:32.230 --> 00:55:45.720 Mira Brancu: She mentioned she's on there, I'm on there, Nancy Parsons is Nancy, P-A-R-S-O-N-S. And, share it with us at talkradio.nyc as well, so we can cheer you on.
00:55:45.840 --> 00:56:04.840 Mira Brancu: We are also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Twitch, Apple, Spotify, Amazon podcasts, all over the place, so if today's episode resonated with you, please share it with a colleague or leave a review. And if you're looking for more personalized support or leadership and team coaching, you could definitely hang,
00:56:04.850 --> 00:56:10.440 Mira Brancu: out with Nancy at CDRassessmentgroup.com.
00:56:10.610 --> 00:56:12.430 Mira Brancu: And check her, …
00:56:12.560 --> 00:56:31.409 Mira Brancu: services out, and you could also head out to www.gotowerscope.com to schedule a consultation with me. The stuff that I like to talk about on the show is part of my research-based Strategic Leadership Pathway Roadmap that I use to help socially conscious organizational misfits on their leadership journeys.
00:56:32.080 --> 00:56:46.310 Mira Brancu: And, you could also check out my books, Millennials' Guide to Workplace Politics, or the workbook version, and or our Leadership Academy, a social impact leadership learning community. I did mention that we have a workshop that's coming up.
00:56:46.450 --> 00:56:53.290 Mira Brancu: That is the Anti-Burnout Leadership Lab. On October 9th.
00:56:53.590 --> 00:56:57.459 Mira Brancu: 12 to 5 p.m. Eastern, put it in your calendar now.
00:56:57.730 --> 00:57:15.299 Mira Brancu: And… or the accelerator, the Telescope Leadership Academy accelerator, that teaches you everything about my roadmap from October 16th through November 20th. It's going to be weekly on Thursdays from 4 to 6 p.m. Eastern.
00:57:15.510 --> 00:57:19.880 Mira Brancu: Hold on, to those dates, because we're gonna be announcing it soon.
00:57:20.110 --> 00:57:28.220 Mira Brancu: And, that's gonna be in the newsletter first. We're offering it to newsletter subscribers first, so, get on the newsletter at gotowerscope.com.
00:57:28.820 --> 00:57:45.110 Mira Brancu: I want to thank TalkRadio.NYC for hosting. Together, we will navigate the complexities of leadership and emerge stronger on the other side. Thank you for joining me and Nancy Parsons today on this journey. This is Dr. Mira Brancou signing off. Until next time.
00:57:45.110 --> 00:57:50.779 Mira Brancu: Stay steady, stay present, and keep building those hard skills muscles muscles.
00:57:51.210 --> 00:57:53.329 Mira Brancu: Thanks, everybody. Take care.
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