EPISODE SUMMARY:
In this compelling episode of The Happy Spot, we engage with Perry Knoppert, founder of The Octopus Movement, to delve into the challenges and opportunities of integrating nonlinear thinkers into organizational structures. Nonlinear thinkers often face marginalization in traditional workplaces, leading to decreased engagement and innovation. This discussion highlights the importance of embracing cognitive diversity to foster inclusive, mentally healthy work environments.
Listeners will gain insights into aligning organizational practices with guidelines from the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) and the Society for Human Resource Management (SHRM), emphasizing the significance of mental health in the workplace. The episode underscores how organizations can proactively address mental health concerns, reduce burnout, and enhance productivity by creating supportive environments for all employees, including those with unconventional thinking styles.
What if the very individuals who challenge the status quo are the key to your organization's innovation and resilience?
In this episode of The Happy Spot, we converse with Perry Knoppert—also known as Dr. Octopus—the visionary behind The Octopus Movement. We explore the systemic barriers that nonlinear thinkers encounter and discuss strategies to cultivate workplaces that value diverse cognitive approaches. The conversation aligns with OSHA's emphasis on mitigating workplace stress and SHRM's advocacy for comprehensive mental health support, providing actionable insights for leaders committed to fostering inclusive and dynamic organizational cultures.
#NonlinearThinking #NeurodiversityInWorkplace #HumanCentricLeadership #OrganizationalWellness #CognitiveDiversity #OctopusMovement #MentalHealthAtWork #WorkplaceInclusion #BurnoutPrevention #HappySpotPodcast #OSHAMentalHealth #SHRMMentalHealth #WorkplaceSafety #EmployeeWellbeing #MentalHealthSupport #InclusiveWorkplace #EmployeeEngagement #WorkplaceInnovation #DiversityAndInclusion #LeadershipDevelopment
https://www.theoctopusmovement.org
https://www.linkedin.com/in/perryknoppert
https://www.instagram.com/theoctopusmovement
https://www.facebook.com/theoctopusmovement
https://www.youtube.com/@TheOctopusMovement
Host Jack Thomas reflects on his personal history in Manhattan and introduces Perry Knoppert, founder of the Octopus Movement, who advocates for nonlinear thinkers—individuals who process the world creatively, divergently, and often outside conventional norms. Perry shares how his own journey through chosen homelessness and dyslexia inspired him to amplify the voices of people often marginalized in structured systems. He and Anshar Seraphim explore the nature of nonlinear thinking, linking it to cognitive diversity, creativity, and the ability to navigate chaos—framing it as a powerful yet often overlooked asset in both life and the workplace.
Perry Knoppert shares how the Octopus Movement evolved from a personal exploration of cognitive diversity into a global network in 123 countries, offering nonlinear thinkers a rare space to feel seen and empowered. He critiques traditional workplace structures for forcing people into rigid systems that stifle creativity, inclusion, and mental well-being—arguing that such outdated management styles push nonlinear minds into burnout and silence. By flipping the script and designing organizations around people rather than systems, Knoppert illustrates how embracing cognitive differences can drive meaningful innovation and human-centered leadership.
Perry Knoppert outlines a nonlinear framework for human-centered organizations, replacing conventional values with “turn on, tune in, and drop out”—a call to awaken nonlinear thinking, connect through collective intelligence, and pause linear assumptions. He critiques corporate culture’s reliance on rigid systems and buzzwords, arguing that meaningful change begins with starting from the people rather than applying one-size-fits-all solutions. By letting go of the need for external approval and embracing personal authenticity, Perry models how leaders can unlearn harmful norms and create environments where creative thinkers are heard, valued, and empowered.
Perry emphasizes the importance of introducing simple, accessible language like “linear” and “nonlinear” into organizational culture to make space for creative thought and self-expression. He encourages nonlinear thinkers to recognize their own brilliance, unlearn the need for external validation, and take ownership of their ideas—even when they feel misunderstood. The Octopus Movement continues to grow with projects like the Tell Tom app, global think tanks, and the Human Score dashboard—all designed to amplify unheard voices and solve major global issues through collective nonlinear intelligence.
00:00:42.510 --> 00:00:43.980 JACK THOMAS : Good evening, everybody.
00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:51.680 JACK THOMAS : This is Jack Thomas at the happy, happy spot tonight I'm sitting on West 44th Street in the Producers Club
00:00:53.290 --> 00:00:58.090 JACK THOMAS : tonight is a special evening for me personally and professionally.
00:00:58.600 --> 00:01:10.119 JACK THOMAS : I'm 58 years old. I remember being 5 years old working in this neighborhood 53 years ago with my dad going to work driving around, meeting everybody on the west side of Manhattan.
00:01:10.900 --> 00:01:20.769 JACK THOMAS : and how it changes you, and we all have that with our family where it changes you. But then you meet someone in your life where you're professionally introduced to something
00:01:21.420 --> 00:01:23.709 JACK THOMAS : that you pause and go. Huh!
00:01:24.110 --> 00:01:25.950 JACK THOMAS : And Dr. Perry Knoppert.
00:01:26.260 --> 00:01:29.289 JACK THOMAS : I'm so grateful. I had met him on a podcast
00:01:29.540 --> 00:01:33.269 JACK THOMAS : through a business coach. And she said to me, she goes, you know.
00:01:34.060 --> 00:01:37.700 JACK THOMAS : you have a little autism. You're a little on the spectrum, and I'm like.
00:01:37.810 --> 00:01:40.459 JACK THOMAS : I'm from New York City. How'd they miss me?
00:01:40.790 --> 00:01:58.990 JACK THOMAS : And that's a generational thing that they didn't give us diagnosis, going back 40 50 years ago, and I have Dr. Perry Knoppert, who looked at me and said, Hey, Jack, do you know this? This and this, and I said, I have no idea what you're saying. So tonight we're bringing live into New York City.
00:01:59.050 --> 00:02:19.660 JACK THOMAS : Anshar Serafund. He is my business partner, that doctor in the Mishbukha. You put us together as one big Yiddish a family, and I'm going to turn the floor over to the 2 of you gentlemen, so we could hear about Dr. Perry Knappert and coming through our host, doctor, not doctor, but Anshar, who is a Phd.
00:02:19.660 --> 00:02:29.639 JACK THOMAS : In his behavioral training. I'm going to drop off welcome to the video podcast@talkradio.nyc. And this is going to be a party. Everyone.
00:02:30.940 --> 00:02:42.197 Anshar Seraphim: And welcome to the happy spot podcast where we get honest about what it takes to build mentally well, emotionally intelligent and human centered organizations. I'm your host, Anshar seraphim. Thank you for that introduction, Jack.
00:02:42.730 --> 00:02:53.599 Anshar Seraphim: Today we're diving into a subject that speaks to the heart of organizational transformation. The experience of nonlinear thinkers. People who think differently feel deeply or connect dots. Others don't see.
00:02:53.610 --> 00:03:20.489 Anshar Seraphim: These are often the most creative people in the room, and yet they can also be the most overlooked, underutilized, or even feel pushed out by organizations. So joining us is someone who knows this experience intimately. Dr. Perry Knoppert, Aka Dr. Octopus. He's the founder of the octopus movement, a global network of nonlinear thinkers working to address complex global problems by celebrating cognitive diversity. He's joining us from Europe. So thank you very much for staying up late. How are you, Perry?
00:03:21.090 --> 00:03:32.640 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: It's midnight. I'm sure it's super late. But I didn't want to miss this for the world to be on talk radio in New York City. And, please, I'm not a doctor. I'm not Perry.
00:03:32.640 --> 00:03:53.009 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Dr. Perry Knoppert. I'm Dr. Octopus, but I'm not an official doctor. Please keep that in mind, because someone in South Africa started calling me Dr. Octopus. And I really like that. I thought it was really funny. Being the founder of the Octopus movement. He started to call me Dr. Octopus, and that's why
00:03:53.090 --> 00:03:59.699 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: my nickname is Dr. Octopus. But I'm not an official, Dr. Perry Knoppert. I'm just Perry Knopper.
00:03:59.950 --> 00:04:13.729 Anshar Seraphim: Well, I could contrast that opinion, you know, in in academics, when we have someone who wants to get their Phd, it's through peer acceptance that we do that. And if a person who has a Phd. Is calling you doctor, that means a lot more than you might think it does.
00:04:14.010 --> 00:04:14.750 Anshar Seraphim: Oh, so!
00:04:14.750 --> 00:04:15.923 Anshar Seraphim: Oh dear!
00:04:16.519 --> 00:04:31.039 Anshar Seraphim: So obviously. This might be a new topic to some people, and I know that you've shared your journey about getting into this work, you know, and had a deeply personal experience that kind of guided it. So would you mind starting us there? You know what started this whole idea for the octopus movement for you.
00:04:31.550 --> 00:04:39.979 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Yeah, well, a a lot. And sure it's I think it started with me being weird. I've been weird my entire life. And
00:04:39.980 --> 00:04:41.410 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: I relate, weird is that
00:04:41.830 --> 00:05:04.390 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: hear, hear. And weird is is a weird word, right? Because we don't want to call ourselves weird. And it's just someone else who calls you weird. But then, after a little while, you're okay by saying you're weird because you rather have you say it about yourself than someone saying it about you. So weird is something strange. But I've been.
00:05:04.580 --> 00:05:14.459 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: I've been different my entire life, and 4 and a half years ago I did something that made me even more different than many other people.
00:05:14.930 --> 00:05:42.979 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: I became homeless by choice. I was super curious. Lots of things happened in my life, and I was on this crossroad where things went wrong, and I was like, you know what? You can keep it all. I gave everything away, and I disconnected from everything, and I want to show you so many things on, sir. And and because I was expecting this question, where is it coming from? And it also came from
00:05:43.090 --> 00:05:48.315 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: these little note cards. I I went back to find them.
00:05:49.070 --> 00:06:02.149 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: During the homelessness I was interviewing weird people, you know, misfits, curious misfits, because I've always had an interest in them like what's moving, what's what's happening? And
00:06:02.470 --> 00:06:05.449 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: and they were all saying that they were a bit lonely.
00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:15.670 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: and they were all saying that if if only other people would understand them better, they could do so much more so. They felt isolated
00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:19.720 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: because they were different, and I could relate to that. So
00:06:20.100 --> 00:06:26.559 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: during that homelessness I was homeless for 7 months I discovered so many things, and
00:06:26.660 --> 00:06:32.769 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: of course everybody has a talent, and that talent doesn't always fit in the box. And
00:06:33.780 --> 00:06:43.030 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: during the homelessness I discovered so much that after my homelessness I thought, Okay, if I can survive this, I can survive.
00:06:47.500 --> 00:07:04.149 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: What do I do now after after this period? And I decided to create a nonprofit, a global nonprofit called the Octopus Movement, because I think we're missing out on an opportunity. If we are not looking at people that don't perfectly fit in the box.
00:07:05.380 --> 00:07:23.940 Anshar Seraphim: Yeah. And I relate there because I spent 11 months homeless in one of the coldest cities in the United States, and that that was a big eye opening experience for me, too, you know, not just seeing people that were different or didn't fit in the box, but also seeing, especially here in the United States. How much mental illness
00:07:24.070 --> 00:07:50.369 Anshar Seraphim: it runs rampant among the indigent population, you know, there's a big, a big gap there. So obviously, we're going to start circling around this whole topic of being weird. But talking about nonlinear thinking, because I know that that subject can confuse some people. I know that there are lots of different ways that a person can become a nonlinear thinker. One is is being a multi-potentialite, you know. They've done so many different things in so many different spheres.
00:07:50.370 --> 00:08:14.809 Anshar Seraphim: and that changes the way that they navigate information and solve problems. But then, also, nonlinear thinkers can be neurodivergent like me, with autism, not necessarily solving problems with their initial. Try the same way as other people, and I myself am a member of the octopus movement. I'm proud to say, I'm the Vp of critical thinking. So I get to help with the think tanks and the papers and stuff.
00:08:15.110 --> 00:08:39.519 Anshar Seraphim: I know that there are lots of different ways that people can be nonlinear. So for the people who are just hearing this term for the 1st time, can you help our audience understand what nonlinear thinking really is, and how someone might recognize it in themselves or others, especially if it shows up in the workplace, too. Because I know we're talking about that feeling of being lonely and pushed away. I think maybe some context would help. So we can kind of frame our discussion.
00:08:40.350 --> 00:08:43.909 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Yeah. So your question is, can you explain nonlinear thinking?
00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:44.259 Anshar Seraphim: -
00:08:44.260 --> 00:09:11.570 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: No, I can't. No, it's impossible. What I can do is explain a little bit about nonlinear thinking. And to start by explaining that nonlinear thinking is not the opposite of linear thinking. Most people think about that in a linear perspective when they hear the word nonlinear. So it's the opposite of linear. No, it's not for me. Nonlinear thinking is
00:09:11.740 --> 00:09:22.129 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: the space between thoughts, and that concept is maybe a bit weird. But for me, nonlinear thinking means
00:09:22.310 --> 00:09:24.750 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: not thinking at all.
00:09:25.040 --> 00:09:26.020 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: We're
00:09:26.730 --> 00:09:35.699 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: we're conditioned in our educational system. We're conditioned at home. We're conditioned when we grow up in a way of thinking
00:09:35.940 --> 00:09:40.399 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: most of the time. That way of thinking is very linear.
00:09:41.050 --> 00:09:48.149 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: and there's nothing wrong with that. It's fine. This is how we're trained. And this is where we achieve our results.
00:09:48.330 --> 00:09:54.020 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: But there is something else going on in our brain with all of us.
00:09:54.250 --> 00:09:57.330 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: and that's called nonlinear thinking. That is
00:09:57.920 --> 00:10:02.110 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: a thought that comes out of nothing.
00:10:02.250 --> 00:10:23.010 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: All of a sudden you have an epiphany or an idea, and it's often linked to creativity. You know. Nonlinear thinkers are creative. Why is that? They can, they can dive into the space between thoughts and creativity just pops up because true creativity is not linked
00:10:23.250 --> 00:10:25.189 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: to linear thinking.
00:10:25.920 --> 00:10:32.969 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Innovation is linked to linear thinking, you have a result. You have an experience.
00:10:33.160 --> 00:10:39.830 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: You combine these things in a linear way together, and that creates innovation.
00:10:40.820 --> 00:10:54.659 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: True creativity is nonlinear thinking. It's new, it is not linked to anything else. It's a new thing that all of a sudden appears. And I think in today's world we need to
00:10:54.770 --> 00:11:01.940 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: establish a new kind of wisdom where we dive into our nonlinear brain or nonlinear mind
00:11:02.330 --> 00:11:09.179 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: without thinking, because we need that, because everything is a little bit too much conditioned. I hope
00:11:10.040 --> 00:11:23.179 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: that explains a little bit what nonlinear thinking is. And you spoke about neurodiversity and multipotentiality. I can explain something very quickly why neurodiversity is so interesting. And
00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:25.859 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: in the space of nonlinear thinking
00:11:27.050 --> 00:11:30.340 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: we spoke about being weird. So
00:11:30.630 --> 00:11:33.559 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: when when I was little and when I was
00:11:33.740 --> 00:11:40.080 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: school, and I have severe dyslexia, it's it's horrible. And so every time I was at school
00:11:40.370 --> 00:11:54.380 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: a teacher was telling me that I was doing things wrong, I was making mistakes all the time every day, always. That does something to your mind. I can. I can assure you that. So I'm constantly
00:11:55.110 --> 00:12:04.860 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: given the message that I'm doing something wrong. So you're thinking about yourself. What am I doing wrong? What's wrong with me? What's wrong with me?
00:12:05.040 --> 00:12:15.289 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: And the conditioning of a neurodivergent mind is very interesting because you start questioning yourself
00:12:16.330 --> 00:12:23.129 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: what you're doing. So you build up a relationship with your own thinking with your own mind.
00:12:23.420 --> 00:12:27.430 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: and therefore you understand how your thinking works.
00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:33.969 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: and it? You can allow chaos to be in your life. And chaos is a very interesting subject.
00:12:34.290 --> 00:12:37.420 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Object related to nonlinear thinking.
00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:47.990 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: So a linear mind is very much in control, wants to know what's happening in the next 5 min next week, next day next month, and a nonlinear mind
00:12:48.110 --> 00:12:56.740 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: has more capability to trust their own minds and to allow chaos to be in their lives. And that's
00:12:56.850 --> 00:13:06.479 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: nonlinear thinking. And I think everybody is a nonlinear thinker. But neurodivergence, neurodivergent minds, multipotentialites, creatives.
00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:11.180 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: people that are different are more nonlinear than
00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:15.220 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: typically linear fingers. Does that make sense? I'm sure.
00:13:15.220 --> 00:13:36.979 Anshar Seraphim: Absolutely, absolutely, and we do have to cut here for a commercial break soon. But I did want to share that one of the things that I found most impactful when it came to understanding, nonlinear thinking, you know, because I was trying to put together all of our insights, for for some of the white papers was recognizing that the initial approach that people use to solve a problem
00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:47.469 Anshar Seraphim: is very, very different, depending on the way that they think and it's not that we all can't use established methods to sometimes arrive at conclusions, but
00:13:47.490 --> 00:14:10.079 Anshar Seraphim: there is this need, I think, in education to funnel us down to a singular method to punish creativity, to stop collaborative learning, and that was one of the things that we kind of learned from from doing. The paper on Education. So after we get back from the commercial break, what I would like to do is talk a little bit more about this global movement, and how it expanded the way that it did.
00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:23.599 Anshar Seraphim: and get some of your insights on some of the challenges of that process, and and what it's been like for you as a leader. So if you're enjoying this conversation with Dr. Octopus and myself, make sure to stay tuned, and we'll be back shortly after this commercial break.
00:16:06.270 --> 00:16:13.354 Anshar Seraphim: Hi! There! Welcome back to the happy spot! This is your host, Anshar Seraphim. Today I have with me Dr. Perry Knopper, Dr. Octopus.
00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:38.149 Anshar Seraphim: We're talking about the whole concept of nonlinear thinking and how that developed into an international movement. If you're just tuning in with us so welcome back from the break, Perry, I wanted to touch on. How nonlinear thinking this idea of meeting these people while you were off on your journey. How did that evolve into an international movement for creative problem, solving and inclusion. How did that happen?
00:16:38.610 --> 00:16:46.160 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: What what the hell happens right? During during the homelessness and during the
00:16:46.360 --> 00:17:02.180 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: understanding that I have a very nonlinear brain, and I live in a linear world I started to dive into in that space between thoughts, and I wanted to show you this. I've never showed anyone, but these are the cards that I wrote
00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:27.959 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: during that time during the space between thoughts. So these are notes that doesn't make any sense. I was just writing them down every time something popped up very nonlinear. And I was interviewing people that were slightly different. So I started with 50 people together and like, Okay, let's let's bring these nonlinear thinkers together. And everybody was so pleased because finally
00:17:28.010 --> 00:17:50.789 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: they could be themselves. You know, they don't have to wear a mask or to pretend that they're someone else. So they were so excited about that, and because we called it the octopus movement, and the octopus is a symbol for a curious misfit, and later I found out that the octopus is a symbol for so many other things, and
00:17:51.310 --> 00:18:03.400 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: by nonlinear thinking, I selected the octopus as a symbol for our movement, and and thanks to the octopus and and nonlinear thinkers together.
00:18:03.620 --> 00:18:17.380 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: it exploded. You know we have now more than 9,000 members, and I just did a check in the database. We're in 123 countries right now with the octopus movement.
00:18:17.380 --> 00:18:18.120 Anshar Seraphim: Oh, wow!
00:18:18.230 --> 00:18:21.349 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: And so less than 4 years. It's crazy.
00:18:22.100 --> 00:18:29.690 Anshar Seraphim: That's that's absolutely crazy, and you know it even got you featured in Forbes, which I thought was really cool. So
00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:49.799 Anshar Seraphim: let me let me ask about kind of tie this down to the specific, because here, at the happy spot, one of our goals is to talk about how we could use these insights from these experts to be able to improve spaces at work and organizations. So let's talk about organizations. What do you think are the common ways that workplaces
00:18:49.910 --> 00:19:01.919 Anshar Seraphim: and organizations inadvertently marginalized nonlinear and neurodivergent thinkers. Because I know we already touched on that topic with education. And that's a big systemic problem at the bottom for culture. But what happens when we get to work? And we're nonlinear.
00:19:05.190 --> 00:19:18.639 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Okay, so, and everybody has talent, right? And and you, you want to bring your talent into your daily life, and you bring it to work, and you have a nonlinear mind.
00:19:19.760 --> 00:19:27.619 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: But at work. It's structured in a linear way, because they want to manage everything as good as possible.
00:19:27.910 --> 00:19:40.710 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: There is no room for nonlinear thinking you need to do this inside of your box, and then you're fine, and maybe sometimes you can step out a little bit. But that's it.
00:19:42.270 --> 00:19:48.279 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: This is a waste. This is the problem. So you're you're putting people into a box.
00:19:48.450 --> 00:19:57.880 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: And that's the only way you can manage them. But this is this is ancient history. This is old fashioned. This is not how you should be
00:19:58.800 --> 00:20:10.219 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: managing people. This is an old fashioned way of leadership. You know, you want to be in control. You use the linear method, and that's it. At the octopus movement. I can prove
00:20:10.220 --> 00:20:34.139 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: it works in a different way. We're using nonlinear thinking in our leadership, in our management. We don't have any rules within the octopus movement. So we're giving space for people to be themselves, and to explore where they want to be. And of course you still need to manage things. And of course I have excel sheets and data sets and and whatnot. But
00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:42.770 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: there is a possibility of space for people to be exactly who they are and to bring their
00:20:43.250 --> 00:20:45.410 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: specialty. They're they're
00:20:45.530 --> 00:20:52.509 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: the things that they're very good at with them in that space where everything is possible. It's I don't know
00:20:53.210 --> 00:21:07.310 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: if I explain it correctly this way, I'm sure, but you know what I mean, right? But it's if if it's too linear, I always say, and I don't know if I can say this here. But I'm Dutch in the Netherlands we say stupid things sometimes. It feels a bit like
00:21:07.500 --> 00:21:16.189 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: a linear system is tight underwear. You need to do it exactly like this. And if not, it's a problem, and and that
00:21:16.620 --> 00:21:23.810 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: kills creativity and it kills the possibilities to solve difficult issues.
00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:35.009 Anshar Seraphim: So if people are in that organization and they're walking that boundary line between, you know, tolerance and inclusion.
00:21:35.230 --> 00:22:02.260 Anshar Seraphim: you know what is true inclusion look like in an organizational setting. Say, I know that because of the old way of doing things, you know, corporations and organizations are constantly trying to, you know. Talk about alignment getting everyone aligned and doing the same thing. And you're right. It does kill creativity. So, and I know from my own nonlinear experience in education. The way that I understand things is to break them apart and look at all the pieces and.
00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:12.099 Anshar Seraphim: If I try to do that in a traditional classroom, it derails everything that the instructor was, you know, supposed to cover, even if it helps my understanding. So
00:22:12.360 --> 00:22:32.579 Anshar Seraphim: you know what? What is inclusion of that sort, you know, respecting cognitive differences. What does it look like in an organizational setting? You know? What what insights have you gotten from running the octopus movement and making a space for people who are nonlinear and letting them succeed? And what inspiration can you give to other people who are looking to do the same?
00:22:34.060 --> 00:22:49.729 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Well, I think a lot of people are. Let's look at the other side. So if you have a very nonlinear mind, and you work in an organization where everything is very linear chances of of burnout is huge because you're frustrated
00:22:50.000 --> 00:23:11.720 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: because, you know, you have insights. But nobody's listening to you, because that's not your job right? And you can see that if someone would change this and that, that would have a great effect on the whole company, or on the business, or on the product. But nobody's listening to you. It's not your job, so it it causes a burnout, because
00:23:11.840 --> 00:23:23.179 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: this is not your avatar. Your avatar is in a box that needs to do this, but you have many more insights, and it's you're not allowed to think outside of the box. And
00:23:23.520 --> 00:23:26.929 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: why is this happening? It's an old
00:23:26.950 --> 00:23:56.809 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: way of leadership, you know. It's a very linear structure, because then you can control everything. Then you can manage everything, and we don't want chaos. We definitely don't want chaos. But is that true? Is is chaos such a bad thing, is it? Do you always need to be exactly in control, and I know I'm sure I know a very. I know a lot of very good managers who are very successful in the corporate world.
00:23:56.810 --> 00:24:08.079 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: And they're so linear. They're so driven in that little box, and they control everything. And I'm always wondering what are they really good at. Are there
00:24:08.380 --> 00:24:21.089 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: good in leadership in managing the people, or are they very good in reporting the details to the next layer of management? And I think that second
00:24:21.260 --> 00:24:27.469 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: thing is is what's really happening. So there isn't
00:24:27.910 --> 00:24:35.080 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: an opportunity that we're missing out here. If we're staying in that linear system
00:24:35.670 --> 00:24:50.620 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: of controlling everything, of being putting everything in little boxes, and I think it has a huge consequences, for people that are very nonlinear have many ideas, and they get into a burnout, you know. They
00:24:51.200 --> 00:25:01.840 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: they feel miserable and they go to work like, Okay, I'm not saying anything. I'm do what I need to do, and that's it then, and and those are non playable characters. You don't want them in your organization right?
00:25:01.840 --> 00:25:15.488 Anshar Seraphim: Well right, because you can't speak up if you're in a meeting, and you see something going on, or a system that's better, you know, trying to toss away the whole system or talk about it from a different point of view. It just seems to cause frustration, and I I know that that causes conflict at work, too.
00:25:15.830 --> 00:25:27.149 Anshar Seraphim: You know what are the things that organizations have tried to do recently? You know, we have organizations in in the United States like Osha and Shrm. You know where
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:33.699 Anshar Seraphim: they are talking about things like the psychological state of of people at work. And
00:25:33.970 --> 00:25:44.359 Anshar Seraphim: you know, creating a supportive workplace for people who think differently. And a lot of them adopt these surface level wellness programs where you know they're they're claiming these
00:25:45.073 --> 00:25:50.519 Anshar Seraphim: claiming this alignment with with trying to make the workplace happier. But
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:57.290 Anshar Seraphim: sometimes it seems like they're going through the motions. So what have you learned in running this?
00:25:57.530 --> 00:26:02.550 Anshar Seraphim: I would imagine, incredibly chaotic organization which it's controlled chaos right?
00:26:03.300 --> 00:26:20.609 Anshar Seraphim: What are some insights from that that professionals in those spheres might be able to to take away from it, or people who are trying to design wellness programs for organizations and trying to help foster that atmosphere for people to be able to share ideas. What are your insights after doing this for multiple years.
00:26:21.080 --> 00:26:29.340 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Well, 1st thing what I've I've spoken with you know this. I've spoken with so many nonlinear thinkers all over the world, and
00:26:29.520 --> 00:26:35.740 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: they feel misunderstood, and those are the 1st ones to leave the corporate world because
00:26:36.110 --> 00:26:45.559 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: it doesn't work and you don't want them to leave. You want to keep them. You want to have your nonlinear thinkers in your organization. So
00:26:45.650 --> 00:27:05.369 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: that's the 1st thing. Another thing is, when we look at wellness programs where we want to solve this. Then it's always again from a linear perspective. Then it's like, Okay, we're going to take care of our people and everybody's included. And let's let's do a meditation program.
00:27:05.370 --> 00:27:18.660 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: And and then this is the way to do meditation. And this is how it works. And then it's for everyone. And we did meditation in the company and nothing changed? Of course not. You know it's
00:27:19.710 --> 00:27:32.120 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: you many times. It's based on a system. We have a program that is a system, and we and we give that to the people on the work floor, on, on, within the company.
00:27:33.210 --> 00:27:59.690 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: within the octopus movement we we turn it around. We started with the people. We started with the 1st 50 people in the octopus movement, and we were growing and growing. We have 143 founding members. We have 48 ambassadors. We have a management team of 28 people. But we started with the people first, st and then we were looking at. How do things operate?
00:27:59.940 --> 00:28:16.420 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: We started with the Think tank. It was complete chaos. You remember that there was no structure, and after a little while we discovered the right system that works well with nonlinear thinkers. So what we did in the octopus movement is.
00:28:16.470 --> 00:28:41.879 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: we didn't start with a system, but we started with the people and see what is necessary to take the most out of these people and get our results that we want to do. So we? We turn it around and I see it with most companies. They start with the system, and they're selling it to their employees, or they're selling it to their customers. That's a big question, Mark. If that's the best way to go in today's world.
00:28:42.350 --> 00:28:50.419 Anshar Seraphim: Yeah, I mean, if you're trying to apply a system that you have to people regardless of who they are instead of doing it the other way around. Then it's kind of a square
00:28:50.660 --> 00:28:53.950 Anshar Seraphim: peck into a round hole which I totally get.
00:28:54.372 --> 00:29:03.750 Anshar Seraphim: We're gonna have to cough here to a commercial break here in a minute. But if you had to build a human centered company from Scratch, what would be those 3
00:29:03.930 --> 00:29:09.689 Anshar Seraphim: 1st cultural values you'd embed then, and then we'll kind of leave that thought with everyone as we cut to our break.
00:29:10.250 --> 00:29:12.430 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Okay. Do I answer it already? I'll share.
00:29:12.430 --> 00:29:14.580 Anshar Seraphim: Yeah, tell me the 3. Just go ahead and tell me.
00:29:14.580 --> 00:29:26.140 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Well, no flexibility, creativity, inclusion, but those are the boring ones. I have 3 other ones, so flexibility, creativity, inclusion, is the linear answer, and F
00:29:26.460 --> 00:29:29.739 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: to the break I will give another answer, which is more.
00:29:29.740 --> 00:29:36.160 Anshar Seraphim: Great. I can't wait. I can't wait for the nonlinear answer. It'll be even better. And hopefully you're you'll tune back in with us after the commercial break.
00:31:10.250 --> 00:31:32.520 Anshar Seraphim: And welcome back to the happy spot. I'm your host on Shar Seraphim today. If you're just tuning in, we're talking to Perry Knoppert, Aka, Dr. Octopus of the octopus movement, talking about the value of nonlinear thinking and organizations and the lessons that he's learned and running his own nonlinear organization. So before the break we're talking about.
00:31:32.650 --> 00:31:35.829 Anshar Seraphim: If you had to build a human centered company from scratch.
00:31:35.990 --> 00:31:45.420 Anshar Seraphim: what would be the 3 1st cultural values that you would would instill and embed. You gave the linear answer. Why don't you give us the nonlinear answer.
00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:50.710 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: So the linear answer is, flexibility, creativity, and inclusion.
00:31:50.990 --> 00:31:54.500 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: The right makes sense. But
00:31:54.950 --> 00:32:01.909 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: I was reading a book from Timothy Leary, and he always spoke about, turn on tune in and drop out
00:32:02.060 --> 00:32:09.930 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: during the sixties, and I really like that. So I always use turn on your nonlinear, thinking
00:32:11.150 --> 00:32:27.320 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: tune into the human mycelium. I will explain that later and drop out of the laws of thought. And the last one is very important. That's the linear conditioning that we have something happens. Our brain, you know.
00:32:27.320 --> 00:32:44.229 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: immediately fires away to us like this is the reality. Is this is my outtake. This is my conclusion. This is what's going on. He's weird. This is wrong. We have to do it differently. And and we can drop out of that law of law of thought
00:32:44.300 --> 00:32:55.140 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: that we can say, Okay, that is my conditioning talking to me. And I'm going to park that aside. Maybe that's inclusion.
00:32:55.290 --> 00:33:13.080 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: If you turn into the human mycelium. It means you turn into the connection we all have. Some people were saying to me in the beginning, when I made the octopus movement such a beautiful community, and I was like, it's not a community, because I don't like that word. And I was searching for a long time
00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:18.340 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: how to use the correct language for me, because community is.
00:33:18.890 --> 00:33:47.549 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: if you're in a community, it means you are in a specific location or with a specific group of people, or in a specific building, and I didn't want to have anything specific. I wanted to have it for everyone. So that's why I call it the human mycelium because I was watching this documentary of postmets about the mycelium underground, where all the trees and plants are connected with each other, sharing nutrients. It's it's super cool Google it. Ask your
00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:53.749 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: AI tool to explain to you what is the mycelium. It's awesome. So tune in
00:33:53.850 --> 00:34:22.709 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: to the human mycelium is also a kind of flexibility that you see other possibilities and turn on your nonlinear thinking is creativity. Turn on your nonlinear thinking means, you know. Don't think, see what shows up. Use that and and go on. And and that's for me the cultural value that is very important for me in the octopus movement, and that creates a human centered organization, and we even have
00:34:22.780 --> 00:34:24.089 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: a tool now.
00:34:24.389 --> 00:34:35.219 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: sorry for rambling answer. But we've created the human score. It's a dashboard where you can measure in an organization. How human centered you are! And we do that
00:34:35.520 --> 00:34:56.489 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: for communities, for nonprofits, for the corporate world, for education as well. How human centered are you as an educational institution? It's it's awesome. And it's connected to those values because human centricity is, I think, in today's world with AI very important.
00:34:56.750 --> 00:35:02.740 Anshar Seraphim: Well, I mean you. You spoke to it before, you know. If you're starting with the system rather than the people, you're doing things backwards.
00:35:02.980 --> 00:35:03.580 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Yep.
00:35:03.580 --> 00:35:13.650 Anshar Seraphim: And you know, you talk about collective intelligence often for our listeners and leadership. What's what's the difference between that and just working in teams.
00:35:14.260 --> 00:35:32.429 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Working in teams. So when when people oh, I have to share this with you, I'm sure I don't know if I can do this. But I have to share something working in teams as soon as nonlinear thinking is involved and creativity. And we're talking about working in teams.
00:35:33.040 --> 00:35:41.690 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Most people start talking about about lateral thinking. You know the thinking heads, Edward de Bono.
00:35:43.370 --> 00:36:03.759 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: It drives me nuts because it's so linear, you know. His his explanation in in his thinking heads is very linear. Now you're wearing the head of the creative person. Now, you're wearing the hat of the person who doesn't agree. And and that's working in teams, whereas collective intelligence is
00:36:04.260 --> 00:36:21.940 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: to let go of everything and and really use the collective intelligence of all the people there to work together and not say, Okay, you're always very creative. So now you say something very creative. It doesn't work that way, because maybe the accountant
00:36:21.940 --> 00:36:34.490 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: is now in a very nonlinear space, and all of a sudden, because of his experience, has an amazing creative idea. But nobody would listen to him because he's the account. So
00:36:34.940 --> 00:36:36.570 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: please collect
00:36:36.750 --> 00:36:59.280 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: intelligence so much more interesting than working with teams in a lateral way. It it sorry for saying this. Many people now listening are thinking, who is this idiot? But think about it. It's it's interesting to use a different approach for this. It doesn't work that way anymore. So collective intelligence for me.
00:36:59.380 --> 00:37:14.180 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: It's really combining all these nonlinear brains together and give space to dive in in between thoughts. And it doesn't matter who's who, who's doing what and and allow everyone to work together.
00:37:15.040 --> 00:37:45.029 Anshar Seraphim: So I mean, let's talk about language then, because you know a lot of people who work in human resources and are trying to to quantify all of these systems. They they use a lot of buzzwords, everything from neuro inclusivity to cognitive diversity, neurodivergence, wellness, inclusivity. How do we avoid these becoming buzzwords and and keep them grounded in real live change. Is there? Is there a different way, a nonlinear way to make sure that this happens.
00:37:46.500 --> 00:38:01.279 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Well to be aware that words bending is an option always so for me. Many times in my mind it's like, what does it mean. You know, we we talk about weird, what is weird? You know, it's so easy to use language.
00:38:01.550 --> 00:38:11.530 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Talk about community. Oh, it's a community. Wait a second, what does a community really mean? And it's the same with neurodiversity. It's a very interesting word
00:38:12.060 --> 00:38:17.769 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: with neurodiversity. Answer. This is so weird. And especially here in the Netherlands
00:38:18.010 --> 00:38:31.629 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: neurodiversity. There's only neurodivergent mind when there's a problem. So imagine this Adhd, someone has Adhd, but it's never been tested before. So here in the Netherlands.
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:43.769 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: You're only get the label of neurodiversity as Adhd when there's a problem. If there's not a problem you don't have, Adhd.
00:38:44.910 --> 00:38:57.600 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: But this is so weird. At one time I was at the University in Utrecht with a group of international students, and I gave them the assignment to design the space before neurodiversity. Because
00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:09.900 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: you're you're the same person you have Adhd. And for some people it's a problem. And for some people it's not. But it's the same conditioning. And yet
00:39:10.050 --> 00:39:16.540 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: we use the language in in a very linear way. This is neurodiversity, and
00:39:16.670 --> 00:39:22.560 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: and that's difficult. I've learned that the hard way during my homelessness, because the
00:39:23.160 --> 00:39:31.989 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: the weirdest thing that I discovered being homeless was that nothing really changed for me? Here everything stayed the same
00:39:32.170 --> 00:39:43.059 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: out there everything changed. So I was the same Perry. I had the same thoughts, at the same feelings. When I was touching my dog. It was the same experience
00:39:44.210 --> 00:40:07.639 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: for the people around me because I was homeless. I was someone else, and they were judging me. And so the label, Homeless came, and I was rejected even by my own friends and family because of that. So we need to be very careful with language. And that's why I also love the word nonlinear. We're all nonlinear.
00:40:07.930 --> 00:40:25.709 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: and it's it's so much fun to use that language at the office. Oh, that's a very linear approach. Oh, that's very nonlinear view done, you know. It's not stignomizing. That's not using labels, and we cannot make any mistakes there. It's difficult. We need to be careful with that.
00:40:25.710 --> 00:40:39.640 Anshar Seraphim: So, being careful, you know. Do you think that there are red flags in languages or in language or policies, that signal an organization might be unintentionally excluding creative thinkers, you know. What do they need to watch themselves for?
00:40:40.990 --> 00:40:46.540 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: No, I I don't think I can say there are red flags specifically, but
00:40:46.960 --> 00:41:05.389 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: how beautiful would it be to look at the other way. How beautiful would it be on chart if an organization would be able to pause the system to pause the linear thinking, how cool would that be? It's so simple. And I did the calculation once how much money
00:41:05.430 --> 00:41:06.420 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: with that
00:41:06.440 --> 00:41:17.520 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: create in the world. If we were able to pause the system we're we're not doing that, you know. Some people are hiding because of systems. I can do that for you.
00:41:17.520 --> 00:41:39.049 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Those are the rules. I'm sorry. But what happens if you're saying, wait a second. I'm pausing the system. I'm solving this for you. When everything is okay, I restart the system for you, and you're fine, and we can see that in organizations as well. You are weird. You're super weird, and you're doing something in the meeting that is very inappropriate. But wait a second.
00:41:39.150 --> 00:41:48.870 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: let's pause the system and allow you to do this and it, and it will create possibilities, and it will sparkle new ideas and creativity.
00:41:49.220 --> 00:41:51.690 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: It's not that difficult. But we've
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:57.660 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: conditioned everything into a linear structure where it's just that this is the system
00:41:57.830 --> 00:42:02.340 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: end of talking about it. We should be able to pause the system.
00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:12.800 Anshar Seraphim: So speaking of self editing, then for organizations, you know. What about with you? Specifically, what's what's a belief that you had to unlearn about yourself in order to do what you're doing now.
00:42:16.500 --> 00:42:31.559 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: That way because I was doing it as well. You know, it's it's also like, Oh, that's very. I was judging in the beginning. Oh, that's very linear. I don't want to go there, which is ridiculous. Then I'm doing the same thing. Everybody else is still doing.
00:42:31.560 --> 00:42:32.100 Anshar Seraphim: Of course.
00:42:32.780 --> 00:42:43.339 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Just in reverse. That's stupid. And the other big thing that I had to change. And I've learned that again during my homelessness was the approval of others.
00:42:43.660 --> 00:42:44.620 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: I'd
00:42:45.370 --> 00:43:07.039 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: now, I think, many times to tell you a secret. I think many times where were you when I was homeless? So when someone has an idea, or it's judgmental to me, and it doesn't suit me, I'm thinking. Where were you when I was homeless? You know I don't need approval from others to be myself.
00:43:07.420 --> 00:43:14.849 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: I don't fit in the box, so if someone is accusing me for being too weird or not fitting well in a box.
00:43:16.240 --> 00:43:40.549 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: That's that's not for me, you know. That's it doesn't serve me. So what did I have to unlearn? I had to really unlearn the approval from others. Let me be myself. I want to be my authentic self, not to be authentic, but just to be myself, because I think as soon as we're talking about. I want to be my authentic self. You're not authentic anymore. I just want to be myself.
00:43:42.020 --> 00:43:47.260 Anshar Seraphim: Yeah, I had a little bit of that experience myself, you know, growing up nonverbal with autism.
00:43:47.450 --> 00:43:52.649 Anshar Seraphim: And I I at 1st I tried to put so much effort into masking, making myself.
00:43:52.910 --> 00:44:03.919 Anshar Seraphim: you know, appear to be like neurotypical people, so that I would be able to have social relationships. And I I never realized that even if I got what I was looking for.
00:44:04.050 --> 00:44:17.659 Anshar Seraphim: that I would be inherently questioning the nature of that connection later, because I wasn't myself to get it. So I think authenticity is really important on this topic. When we get back from the commercial break. We're going to talk a little bit more
00:44:17.680 --> 00:44:38.150 Anshar Seraphim: about how to open up these conversations at the workplace, because obviously people can be intimidated about it, and a few more of your insights from the octopus movement. We'll kind of open the floor a little bit and talk about some of the exciting stuff that you're doing. So make sure stay tuned. We're gonna have more conversation with Dr. Octopus. Perry Knopper from the Netherlands. Appreciate him joining us, and we'll see you soon after the break.
00:46:23.220 --> 00:46:38.720 Anshar Seraphim: And welcome back to the happy spot. I'm your host, Anshar Seraphim. If you're just tuning in today, I'm having the pleasure of speaking with Perry Knoppert, Aka, Dr. Octopus of the octopus movement, a global group of human mycelium of nonlinear thinkers.
00:46:38.950 --> 00:47:03.520 Anshar Seraphim: Before we went off to the break, we're talking about how organizations can try to make some changes, to make things not just more permissive for nonlinear thinkers, but to allow for real creativity. And obviously you've had your own experience and running this global organization or letting it run itself depending on you also mentioned the human score and talking about human centricity. So
00:47:03.560 --> 00:47:21.700 Anshar Seraphim: kind of diving into that just a little bit. What? What metrics do you think matter most when trying to gauge real inclusivity or human centricity in an organization. What what is it that people should be looking for in their organizations in order to be able to achieve this goal of allowing nonlinear thinkers to flourish.
00:47:22.590 --> 00:47:33.910 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: No, I I think it's important to create language. And and I and I do think that nonlinear linear really helps in in having the conversations at work.
00:47:35.410 --> 00:47:58.419 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: It's easy to to explain where I have a nonlinear idea, you know, if you say that if it if you say I have a crazy idea, then nobody takes it serious, maybe. But if you say I have a nonlinear idea, then it's like, Oh, this is an idea that is not in line, but maybe interesting. So as soon as you start using the language of
00:47:58.580 --> 00:48:13.819 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: this is very linear to me. I have difficulty with that. I have a more nonlinear brain. Can we talk about that? Open up that conversation, and and everybody can do that? Don't wait
00:48:13.820 --> 00:48:41.310 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: until your your manager has done a course at the octopus movement, and now understands what nonlinear thinking is. Go and have that conversation. It's not that difficult, and it opens up space. And I know this because I have 3 kids. I have 3 kids in the space of neurodiversity. They're all at school. They're all teenagers. When we started talking about linear nonlinear at home.
00:48:41.310 --> 00:48:47.460 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: They took that with them to school, and I remember so well that my my son.
00:48:47.500 --> 00:48:57.410 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: the middle one, Ola he was. He was like 14 or 15, and the school photographer was at school, and Ola is the funny one, and he is always doing
00:48:57.460 --> 00:49:10.789 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: weird things and funny things. So he wanted to be at the photo with everyone wearing his tiny little sunglasses, and the photographer said to him, You can wear your sunglasses. So he came home and he said, Dad.
00:49:10.970 --> 00:49:18.970 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: the photographer, was not a true artist. In my opinion. I thought he was very linear because I couldn't wear my sunglasses.
00:49:19.260 --> 00:49:25.989 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: You know. He wasn't upset. There wasn't a problem, and he could explain how things were working.
00:49:26.530 --> 00:49:43.510 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: I love that, you know. It's it's we talked about. Language is everything. It's super important, or say that you're an octopus. Say that you have 8 arms, and and and you know 3 hearts and 9 brains. Talk about these things.
00:49:43.970 --> 00:49:50.270 Anshar Seraphim: So there's this cool concept called a dare to suck meeting where.
00:49:50.270 --> 00:49:50.780 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Yeah.
00:49:50.780 --> 00:49:57.679 Anshar Seraphim: You know, you get a bunch of people together, and there are no bad ideas, and everyone just has an opportunity
00:49:57.780 --> 00:50:04.170 Anshar Seraphim: to just throw something onto the bonfire and see what the smoke looks like.
00:50:04.310 --> 00:50:05.900 Anshar Seraphim: Do you think that
00:50:06.040 --> 00:50:22.340 Anshar Seraphim: creating thinking spaces like that is the way to incorporate nonlinear thinking best into an organization that's trying to, you know, make ends with the fact that it's been, you know, kind of organizationally rigid before that? Or is there a bigger change that needs to happen.
00:50:23.330 --> 00:50:32.490 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: No, no, that's a perfect start, and we need different thinking to survive the next decade. It's everywhere it's in in time. In Forbes.
00:50:33.050 --> 00:51:00.539 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: you know, Ceos are talking about this, there's massive change going on with AI, we need different thinking to get somewhere. But the problem is that 98% of our thoughts are the same thoughts every day all the time. So if you, if you take your working group of your organization out to a different place and say, Okay, now, we're going to be creative. That's difficult, because these people are still in their same pattern of thinking.
00:51:00.680 --> 00:51:12.770 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: allowing the space. And we do that with the think Tank and and I have to share this, and you know the think Tank very well. Answer, and I'm so proud of this the think tank in the octopus movement, then 40
00:51:12.820 --> 00:51:32.360 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: nonlinear thinkers, weirdos, intelligent people, scientists, artists, entrepreneurs. They come on together and and we have a digital whiteboard. We have 7 questions, and they get 5 min per question to answer these questions, and they're sticky notes, and there's music and their chaos. And there's
00:51:32.430 --> 00:51:38.719 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: time pressure. What do we want to do is we want to open up that space of
00:51:38.830 --> 00:51:44.830 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: not thinking, but sharing your thoughts. And that's the same thing as there to suck, you know.
00:51:47.730 --> 00:51:49.199 Anshar Seraphim: I know 100%.
00:51:49.910 --> 00:51:56.259 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Not just go for it, and if we need different thinking to survive the next decade, then that's the way to go.
00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:13.740 Anshar Seraphim: So what's 1 thing that you wish? Every nonlinear neurodiversion, or just nonlinear thinker could could hear and believe about themselves? Then what belief systems need to change in ourselves. If we want to start employing more nonlinear ideas.
00:52:14.270 --> 00:52:38.940 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: That you're awesome, you know, and we spoke about that in the beginning of the interview. My dyslexia and I have Adhd and I'm on the spectrum. My time at school was horrible. I was doing everything wrong. I thought I was stupid, very simple. I thought I was plain stupid, because it didn't fit into that system that school had. And I wish all nonlinear thinkers
00:52:39.370 --> 00:52:52.440 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: would be aware of the fact that they're awesome, that they have an amazing brain, an amazing mind where they can dive into these black holes, between thoughts where there is creativity, where there are
00:52:53.110 --> 00:53:21.430 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: new ideas and and look at history people, all the people that made a difference, all the ones that did awesome things are very nonlinear, you know, Steve Jobs. Look at Steve Jobs or Einstein or Da Vinci, or whatever. These are very nonlinear brains not always understood, and I always say you need a linear result to celebrate your nonlinear brilliance, because otherwise
00:53:21.710 --> 00:53:26.609 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: the larger group doesn't understand. And you see that in history as well, then.
00:53:26.610 --> 00:53:32.950 Anshar Seraphim: Yeah, I share a birthday with with Nikola Tesla. So I I know all about that. Yeah.
00:53:32.950 --> 00:53:36.539 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Here you go right. And we need. We need that linear
00:53:37.060 --> 00:53:46.729 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: results for people to see you. And then they accept your nonlinear brilliance. And before that you're just a weird
00:53:47.100 --> 00:53:49.390 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: beep, you know. You're just.
00:53:50.070 --> 00:54:06.490 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: People don't understand you. And then you celebrate results. And then everybody's like he's brilliant. So all the nonlinear thinkers out there that they're thinking. Nobody understands me, or you know I don't. I don't. Nobody gets me.
00:54:07.550 --> 00:54:20.330 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: We get you. We understand you. You're awesome, you know. Join, join the octopus movement. We have more than 9,000 people from all over the world that are very nonlinear together, building the most beautiful things.
00:54:21.050 --> 00:54:42.999 Anshar Seraphim: So I'm really sad about this. We're almost out of time. I do want to point out that you can learn more about Perry and the octopus movement at theoctopusmovement.org. And I wanted to give the last couple of minutes here for you to share what the octopus movement is currently working on. What are your current projects? What are things that we can expect to see coming out of the movement? And how can people get involved.
00:54:43.730 --> 00:54:44.359 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Okay,
00:54:45.070 --> 00:55:11.889 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: sign up. Become a member of the octopus movement. It's for free. It's in the nonprofit. You can. You can join the think, Tank, you can do all kinds of cool stuff. You can also become a founding member. That means you're in the inner family of the octopus movement. We will only have 250 founding members, and we have now 48. Something so becoming a founding member is still in a possibility we've created. Tell Tom that's an app
00:55:11.930 --> 00:55:19.504 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: that is awesome. It's it's a very simple app, and it's in in stage one right now.
00:55:20.310 --> 00:55:27.119 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: it's based on what happened in our think tanks. We have all these nonlinear minds and working together and ideas.
00:55:27.220 --> 00:55:50.619 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: But we were also thinking, but what's really going on with the world? What's really happening. So this app telltom dot Inc. Is there for people to share their thoughts that nobody wants to hear. They go into a collective database. It's all anonymous. And we use that to address things that are important in the world because we want to solve 6 things in the world.
00:55:50.730 --> 00:55:53.949 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: homelessness, hunger, climate change.
00:55:54.580 --> 00:56:08.590 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: education, leadership, and well-being. So we need to know what's going on in the world. That's tell Tom. We have the think tanks for other organizations to use us work with us. If you have a big problem, you don't know how to solve that.
00:56:08.840 --> 00:56:19.389 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Hire this. Think tank of the octopus moving. You get your own, designated 40, 50 nonlinear thinkers. We have the human score, which is a dashboard of
00:56:20.330 --> 00:56:44.459 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: human centricity, and we're building the new platform of the human mycelium. Where the concept is very simple, we combine artificial intelligence with human intelligence, with community. And there's only one question, what do you need? And then everything starts building around that. That's the octopus movement. And I can say so many more things on. Sure. But I will keep it
00:56:44.910 --> 00:56:45.930 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: this week.
00:56:46.110 --> 00:57:05.519 Anshar Seraphim: Well, I just, I want to thank our audience for tuning in Dr. Octopus has definitely inspired me. I think that one of the interesting things about the way that I think is I recognize right out of the gate that I have. You know, biases that go into the way that I think and and that sometimes even
00:57:05.870 --> 00:57:23.240 Anshar Seraphim: things that are very, very good at it creates blind spots. And one of the things that I've really learned to appreciate being a founding member and getting to to do the think tanks and engage the way that I have with the octopus movement is getting to see that benefit of outside perspectives and difference in thinking, and to not
00:57:23.290 --> 00:57:50.250 Anshar Seraphim: to be able to suspend my certitude about the way that the world works, and what the best way is to solve problems. So I want to extend a personal thank you from the happy spot, from me myself. As a as a fellow, you know, as a fellow octopus member and a founding member, and the privilege of getting to work with the Think Tank, I'm really excited to hear more about these apps. Maybe we might have a feature or something in the in the future. Be able to talk about that, and just want to appreciate your time and joining us today. Thank you so much for your time, Perry.
00:57:50.870 --> 00:58:12.660 Perry Knoppert, the Octopus Movement: Thank you. Answer, and I'm so excited that you were interviewing me. We know each other quite well, and I think you're an awesome human, and I'm so happy you're with us in the octopus movement. Thank you, Jack. Thank you. The happy spot. Thank you for being here, and please reach out to me. If anyone has any questions, want to talk about anything, just reach out. I'm always here.
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