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EPISODE SUMMARY:
How can we create healthy workplaces? Sometimes the best way to learn is through other people's stories about how they navigated organizational culture, structures, and leadership approaches that inspire safer and more creative workplaces.
WHAT YOU WILL LEARN:
In her book, What Your Comfort Costs Us, Dr. Gabriela Alcalde uses storytelling to invite us to learn about the experiences of women of color leaders in the workplace and how they are shifting workplace cultures to benefit everyone. We'll discuss leadership, power, and reimagining workplaces that could work for all.
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ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Born in Lima, Peru, Dr. Alcalde is a creative, anti-supremacist leader with experience in the philanthropic, academic, governmental, nonprofit, and grassroots sectors. She writes and speaks locally, nationally, and internationally about shifting the philanthropic and nonprofit sectors, culture change, racial justice, and leadership of women of color. She earned a bachelor’s degree in psychology from the University of Louisville, a master’s in public health from Boston University, and a doctorate in global public health from the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. What Your Comfort Costs Us is her first book.
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LINKS MENTIONED IN EPISODE:
www.mgalcalde.com
https://linktr.ee/mgalcalde
www.gotowerscope.com
#yourcomfortcosts #culturechange #workplace #leadership #TheHardSkills
Dr. Mira Brancu opens this episode of The Hard Skills by spotlighting the importance of reexamining workplace culture and the narratives we accept as leaders, especially when navigating unhealthy environments. Her guest, Dr. Gabriela Alcalde, shares how her immigrant upbringing in Peru shaped her early awareness of global inequality and ignited her drive to reform public health and leadership systems. Their conversation challenges traditional definitions of leadership—particularly for women of color—emphasizing the power of collective leadership and the urgent need to redesign systems that marginalize underrepresented voices.
Dr. Gabriela Alcalde reflects on the emotional and intellectual journey of writing her book during the pandemic, initially as a form of personal processing while navigating a new executive role under intense pressure. Through interviews and surveys of women of color across leadership sectors, she uncovered a shared, often painful experience shaped by systemic inequities—turning her work into a collective narrative and act of advocacy. One of her most urgent insights is the distinction between comfort and safety: how dominant cultural discomfort is frequently misinterpreted as threat, leading to harmful professional consequences, particularly for women of color in leadership roles.
Dr. Mira Brancu and Dr. Gabriela Alcalde explore the critical distinction between discomfort and true danger, emphasizing how unchecked emotional reactions in leadership can undermine psychological safety in the workplace. Dr. Alcalde reinforces the value of constructive discomfort as a necessary component of growth, advocating for leaders to pause, breathe, and self-regulate before responding to perceived threats. The conversation then shifts to systemic workplace dysfunction, where controlling cultures mirror abusive dynamics—highlighting the urgent need to align organizational structures with their stated values to create environments that foster trust, collaboration, and true equity.
As the conversation closes, Dr. Gabriela Alcalde outlines practical, values-driven strategies for leaders to reshape organizational culture—starting with identifying core values and auditing every structure and process for alignment. She shares how her foundation redefined leadership and planning by prioritizing purpose over rigid outcomes, emphasizing that curiosity, courage, creativity, and care—the “Four Cs”—are essential to fostering trust and driving sustainable change. Dr. Mira Brancu underscores that true curiosity demands vulnerability and risk-taking, inviting listeners to reflect on one small but courageous change they can implement in their own leadership journey this week.
00:00:51.430 --> 00:01:10.540 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills show where we take a deep dive into the most challenging soft skills required to navigate leadership, uncertainty, complexities and change today and into the future. I'm your host, Dr. Mira Bronku, psychologist, leadership, consultant and founder of Towerscope.
00:01:11.500 --> 00:01:17.930 Mira Brancu: Now, what stories and messages do we pay attention to that guide, how we think about workplace, culture and safety.
00:01:18.450 --> 00:01:24.440 Mira Brancu: and what stories and behaviors must we let go of to create healthier work.
00:01:27.400 --> 00:01:42.200 Mira Brancu: Today's topic is perfect for Season seven's focus on navigating, unhealthy work environments. And frankly, it will unpack what we're experiencing at the societal level, too. So it's going to pack a punch
00:01:42.660 --> 00:01:48.110 Mira Brancu: whether you're a leader managing a team, a coach, or simply trying to support your colleagues
00:01:48.350 --> 00:01:51.369 Mira Brancu: or friends. This conversation is for you.
00:01:51.670 --> 00:01:59.559 Mira Brancu: And this episode is especially for women of color in leadership roles, or those who aspire to support their work
00:02:00.160 --> 00:02:03.570 Mira Brancu: before we get started. This is a reminder that our workshop.
00:02:03.710 --> 00:02:21.120 Mira Brancu: redefining and developing your leadership identity in 2025 is coming up on May 21, st the workshop includes a leadership, assessment helping you think about your own leadership identity, how you want to show up right now and reveal your leadership strengths, blind spots
00:02:21.340 --> 00:02:29.900 Mira Brancu: and help help you address today's challenges in terms of leadership decisions, challenges and successes today.
00:02:30.470 --> 00:02:41.570 Mira Brancu: So keep that in mind. We have a deadline of May first, st that's right around the corner. But we're gonna extend it to those of you who are listening right now. We're gonna extend it for a week. Okay.
00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:47.180 Mira Brancu: all right, let me introduce our guest today, Dr. M. Gabriela Alcalde.
00:02:47.480 --> 00:02:54.920 Mira Brancu: She writes and speaks locally, nationally and internationally about shifting the philanthropic and nonprofit sectors
00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:59.830 Mira Brancu: culture change racial justice and leadership of women of color.
00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:12.529 Mira Brancu: She earned a bachelor's degree of psychology from the University of Louisville, a master's in Public health from Boston University, and a doctorate in global public health from the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill.
00:03:12.920 --> 00:03:20.050 Mira Brancu: and she is the author of what your comfort costs us. So welcome to have you on the show, Gabriella?
00:03:20.310 --> 00:03:22.830 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Thank you so much, Mira, excited to be with you.
00:03:22.830 --> 00:03:24.260 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely.
00:03:24.460 --> 00:03:25.045 Mira Brancu: So.
00:03:26.210 --> 00:03:32.569 Mira Brancu: let's start with kind of just your your journey up until this point before writing your book. How did you end up being interested in this work.
00:03:35.330 --> 00:03:37.805 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): That is an interesting question.
00:03:39.090 --> 00:03:48.919 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): I'll start with public health. I chose to go into public health because it appealed to both my interest in things being
00:03:49.400 --> 00:04:01.399 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): pragmatic and research based, but also being ethical and values driven. And I felt like public health, was a space where those 2 worlds actually require each other.
00:04:01.510 --> 00:04:29.140 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): I very intentionally then took a path where I worked in different sectors, so that I could understand the different perspectives on how to contribute to creating healthy communities. Each time I worked in a sector there was a lot of finger pointing at another sector as to being the reason why things were not working well. So in moving through various sectors, I was able to build a more complete picture.
00:04:29.580 --> 00:04:34.439 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): And I've said that, you know I'm I'm sort of a
00:04:35.190 --> 00:04:47.089 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): unplanned leader. I didn't really go into leadership on purpose, but rather felt compelled to enter into those spaces. So leadership has always been a concept that interests me
00:04:47.300 --> 00:04:50.402 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): because it's something that I ended up doing.
00:04:51.050 --> 00:04:54.730 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): almost despite my resistance to it.
00:04:55.480 --> 00:05:00.120 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Yeah. And even going backwards from there.
00:05:00.450 --> 00:05:06.249 Mira Brancu: How did you end up even being interested in global public health? I know that
00:05:06.801 --> 00:05:11.370 Mira Brancu: you know in in your book you share that you're from Lima, Peru
00:05:11.590 --> 00:05:19.660 Mira Brancu: and that, in fact, you traveled around a lot because your own father was a scholar and that you yourself
00:05:21.080 --> 00:05:26.029 Mira Brancu: went through like 3 different high schools in 3 different countries.
00:05:26.350 --> 00:05:31.800 Mira Brancu: And I'm curious what part of any of those experiences
00:05:32.170 --> 00:05:37.110 Mira Brancu: led you to start thinking about both global public health
00:05:37.250 --> 00:05:43.440 Mira Brancu: women in leadership, women of color, in leadership and and trying to piece all that together.
00:05:43.630 --> 00:05:46.599 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Yeah, thank you. That's a great question.
00:05:47.350 --> 00:05:56.049 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): I you know I often say that while I value my education, I think my experience as an immigrant in and of itself just being an immigrant.
00:05:56.700 --> 00:06:11.780 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and also specifically having grown up in a country like Peru, with quite stark contrasts and a lot of inequality, and it was a very violent place when I was growing up with terrorism and drug trafficking.
00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:22.820 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): So it was very unstable. So from a very young age. I was very aware of the outside world. I think you know a lot of times kids, especially in the Us.
00:06:22.940 --> 00:06:34.630 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Don't really have to think or be aware of politics, or what happens outside of their home or their neighborhood or school. It was. It was impossible to escape growing up. There was
00:06:35.170 --> 00:06:48.439 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): very dramatic poverty all around us. Violence was on the news constantly. You know. Bombs were going off near my house. My parents wouldn't let us go out certain places to protect us.
00:06:48.550 --> 00:06:50.399 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): People were being kidnapped.
00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:51.080 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:06:51.080 --> 00:06:57.670 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): So I grew up with an awareness of just how violence and how unfair the world could be.
00:06:57.800 --> 00:07:02.950 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and from a very young age, notice, you know, why are some children going to private schools
00:07:03.180 --> 00:07:12.680 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and eating very well, and maybe being driven around by chauffeurs? And we have other children who are walking around barefoot and clearly suffering from starvation
00:07:13.180 --> 00:07:14.830 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): within a few blocks.
00:07:15.657 --> 00:07:18.882 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): So this injustice, like pretty early
00:07:19.880 --> 00:07:33.930 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): activated something in me, a desire to understand why that was allowed, why that was possible, and to figure out ways that we could organize ourselves differently. And as an immigrant, I think
00:07:34.821 --> 00:07:54.159 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): anybody who has to exist in multiple cultures at once. Whether you're an immigrant or you're an indigenous person here, or you're from a minoritized identity. You learn to navigate the world while viewing it through at least 2, maybe more perspectives and lenses with different interpretations.
00:07:54.640 --> 00:08:20.519 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): I would sort of compare it to the research that's been done on brain science, around people who learn different more than one language. When you're young, it it develops your brain in a different way. I remember reading that you, the children, develop abstract thinking earlier when you learn more than one language which makes total sense, because all of a sudden, you know, I know that this is called Pen.
00:08:20.620 --> 00:08:46.919 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): There's so many words even in Spanish, just for one depending what country you're from. And so that automatic also, like at a brain level it structures your brain to question everything and to know that there is no absolute truth behind any one thing, so that that already set me up to engage with the world in a very different way.
00:08:47.820 --> 00:09:05.730 Mira Brancu: I never thought about that part of the immigrant experience, but that makes so much sense, and it completely resonates the experience of. There is no one truth, and that there's lots of different ways of thinking about things. Now, how did
00:09:06.030 --> 00:09:18.260 Mira Brancu: then you connect the striking experience of injustice, and how pull. You were to be concerned with that.
00:09:18.620 --> 00:09:26.579 Mira Brancu: With your interest in the experiences of women of color navigating leadership.
00:09:27.280 --> 00:09:28.000 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Yeah.
00:09:28.270 --> 00:09:51.000 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Well, I'll start a little bit further back, just to say that the idea of being a person of color or whiteness are both social constructs. So it, you know, at different times in my life I was perceived and treated differently. In Peru I identify as my Sisa, so I have indigenous and European ancestry, but in Peru people who look like me are considered white.
00:09:51.677 --> 00:10:01.499 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): But when my family moved to the Us. And to England for my father, you know he got scholarships, and we would move to for him to study. We were no longer white.
00:10:01.820 --> 00:10:03.970 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and so again, that
00:10:05.060 --> 00:10:33.200 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): contributed to that relativity of of identity, of like pretty much anything that was like taught to me. I was like, Well, I guess maybe here, maybe not. And so when I you know, I was a full grown adult before I became a Latina in my mind I was Peruvian until then, and then I realized that in the Us. People were inviting me to serve on committees and task forces because I was a Latina.
00:10:33.310 --> 00:10:59.449 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): And so I made the conscious decision to identify as Latina, because it became more of a social political vehicle, understanding that there are very few Latinas that were invited in at the time. And still today, despite the growing population. So my evolving understanding of how my identity is perceived has led me to this place where
00:10:59.610 --> 00:11:17.470 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): you know one of the premises, the central premises of the book is is the systems and not any specific populations. So that's why I chose to write it about women of color, which is a very broad and non monolithic group of people, and I did that intentionally to say.
00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:33.779 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): it's not about me being Latina or immigrant. It's not about the you know, being a black woman or indigenous woman, or Asian American woman, the system treats those who are other in a specific and harmful way that undermines all of us
00:11:34.090 --> 00:12:00.940 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and really steals from our society our potential. So that's what interested me in the concept of women of color is that one. It is made up. So there's so much power in something that is constructed and has been invented, and yet has very real outcomes. Right? We can look at the health disparities. We can look at socioeconomic disparities, educational disparities.
00:12:01.040 --> 00:12:08.500 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): any place you look in society, you will see that the outcomes are highly racialized
00:12:09.010 --> 00:12:24.720 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and gender, and you know there's a class dimension. But the racial and ethnic category that is much more of a predictor of outcomes and success, economic success or educational success than class is.
00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:27.517 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and I
00:12:28.650 --> 00:12:32.809 Mira Brancu: I've talked about this on the show before, but I really am glad that you brought this up again.
00:12:33.040 --> 00:12:41.300 Mira Brancu: That race and gender are social constructs, and leadership is a social construct also.
00:12:41.300 --> 00:12:43.160 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Yes, right? It doesn't.
00:12:43.160 --> 00:12:53.159 Mira Brancu: We? You talk about that in your book, and we we come at it from different lenses. But I think it's you know, it's something that we sort of both recognize as
00:12:54.800 --> 00:13:03.279 Mira Brancu: this invisible thing that you place on top of your additional identities that someone has described about you.
00:13:03.800 --> 00:13:06.950 Mira Brancu: You choose to put it on or not, and
00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:19.820 Mira Brancu: if you're going to put this additional hat on, recognize that it comes with a bunch of definitions that were defined by the culture. And if you know, you go to different cultures, it might look different.
00:13:19.950 --> 00:13:41.509 Mira Brancu: right? Just like you describe the experience of what what it is like to. You know. Understand your identity when you're in Peru versus in England versus in the Us. You get different labels because of the fact that it's socially constructed. It's developed by society to fit a certain
00:13:41.610 --> 00:13:44.720 Mira Brancu: narrative about who's in, who's out, who's accepted the more what you
00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:48.480 Mira Brancu: like to be accepted, etc, etc.
00:13:49.230 --> 00:13:50.540 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Absolutely.
00:13:50.540 --> 00:13:53.390 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Yeah, yeah, yes. And I think that it's the
00:13:53.680 --> 00:14:01.049 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): leadership. It's socially constructed. And in a multicultural society.
00:14:01.310 --> 00:14:14.000 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): institutions have one dominant culture. Yet individuals and communities are carrying very different understandings and approaches to what leadership is, including, it being an individual
00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:16.470 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): effort or a collective effort.
00:14:17.230 --> 00:14:18.410 Mira Brancu: Can you say more about that.
00:14:20.210 --> 00:14:30.010 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): So you know one of the main themes around the interviews that I conducted. Was the women of color leaders, saying.
00:14:30.220 --> 00:14:37.590 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): I feel uncomfortable with the the label of leader, because I consider myself to be
00:14:38.700 --> 00:14:46.590 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): amplifying hearing the wishes, the needs of the community. So this is a communal effort.
00:14:46.590 --> 00:14:46.980 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:14:47.353 --> 00:14:53.710 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): And, in fact, many of us talk about wanting and working to change organizational structure, to not
00:14:53.940 --> 00:15:01.800 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): focus or center the solo individual leader, but rather to have more distributed decision making and a more collectivist approach.
00:15:02.450 --> 00:15:19.180 Mira Brancu: Yes, excellent. Okay. I want to dig more into that. But I'm just realizing that we've already butted up against our 1st ad break. So you are listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Dr. Gabriella, Alcalde, author of what your comfort costs us.
00:15:19.180 --> 00:15:33.879 Mira Brancu: We air on Tuesdays at 5 pm. Eastern. If you're listening at that time, you can find us live streaming on Linkedin and Youtube, you could add comments, add questions. If you like us to respond in real time. Otherwise
00:15:33.920 --> 00:15:39.020 Mira Brancu: you can search us up@talkradio.nyc. And we will be right back with our guests in just a moment.
00:17:21.339 --> 00:17:44.528 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Dr. Gabriela Alcalde, author of what your comfort costs us. Now. I want to dig into some more of that individualistic and collectivistic idea. But before we do that I want to take a little step back and
00:17:45.399 --> 00:18:01.380 Mira Brancu: just, you know. Talk about the experience of writing your book, you know. What you did was interview. You know, women of color in leadership roles, I think, across sectors and pull out from that
00:18:01.949 --> 00:18:09.299 Mira Brancu: multiple, really important, deep takeaways. I just. I'm curious what the experience was like for you to do this.
00:18:09.549 --> 00:18:13.099 Mira Brancu: Any surprises, any challenges. What was that experience like.
00:18:13.610 --> 00:18:14.330 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Yeah.
00:18:14.770 --> 00:18:19.850 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): So I I started writing it as a cathartic exercise.
00:18:19.850 --> 00:18:20.350 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:18:20.350 --> 00:18:29.719 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Because I had started a job as the 1st woman of color executive director about 6, 7 months before the pandemic
00:18:31.265 --> 00:18:57.419 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): so we had moved to a new state. I had relocated my family, and all of a sudden we had to go fully remote, and with because of my public health background. I was like, Hey, we are. Take your stuff home. We're not working in the office. So we had to figure out the logistical aspects of working remotely while I was still trying to learn the organization, settle my family, figure out what all of us were trying to figure out.
00:18:57.936 --> 00:19:01.620 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): How to stay safe, and I was writing to keep myself sane.
00:19:02.330 --> 00:19:10.029 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and these were themes and topics that I had experienced, and that I had talked to other women over my career.
00:19:10.530 --> 00:19:12.210 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and as I wrote.
00:19:12.520 --> 00:19:19.999 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): I shared with a couple of friends, and they said, This is actually really helpful. You should make this into a book, and I thought, you know.
00:19:20.590 --> 00:19:27.069 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): I would make this into a book if it wasn't just about myself, because I was writing about my own stories initially.
00:19:27.180 --> 00:19:43.720 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): And so I did interview 10 women of color leaders across the Us. And nonprofit philanthropy and higher Ed. And then I also surveyed 32 women across the country in those same sectors of various racial and ethnic identities
00:19:43.860 --> 00:19:46.490 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): all who identify as women of color.
00:19:47.870 --> 00:19:53.034 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): It felt really sacred honestly to have these conversations.
00:19:53.820 --> 00:20:09.689 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): you know, to schedule the time, to do the interviews, and to hold the stories that women were sharing with me, and sometimes it would, you know, take a while for somebody to warm up and really share. Other times we would just go right deep into it, and
00:20:11.110 --> 00:20:23.190 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): it felt in some ways vindicating, even though I knew it wasn't just about me, because I've done the research. And I've talked to other people to have all these successful professionals
00:20:23.360 --> 00:20:34.980 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): share with me their experiences so similar to what I had experienced, and so similar amongst themselves in different parts of the country, and across these 3 sectors, different ages.
00:20:35.930 --> 00:20:36.880 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): It.
00:20:37.580 --> 00:20:41.999 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): It started to build a picture that was much more complete than what I
00:20:42.420 --> 00:20:54.159 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): had, even though I thought I understood it. And then, with the survey, the survey was actually very rich. People were offering a lot. So it really helped to create a much richer picture.
00:20:54.530 --> 00:21:03.210 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and somebody asked me in an interview about the book. You know. How are you processing all this?
00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:22.750 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): And I gave 2 answers, both true. One is that you know I felt safe in my own home I have a loving home and family, and that really helped to contrast what was what I was carrying, hearing, and also working on during the pandemic.
00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:27.520 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and I have access to
00:21:27.740 --> 00:21:44.439 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): health insurance. So I have a therapist who I was also able to bring some of these things with. I work with an executive coach, who is a woman of color, and focuses primarily in working with women of color. So those supports were essential to me.
00:21:44.650 --> 00:21:47.730 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and I have to say that I am still
00:21:47.990 --> 00:21:53.780 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): sort of emotionally and frankly, sort of spiritually and existentially digesting all of it.
00:21:54.330 --> 00:22:00.659 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): I I have read through the book again, just to sort of like, now that it's a an actual book
00:22:01.160 --> 00:22:15.909 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and I still get, I still have an emotional reaction to some of the stories. I still have emotional reaction to some of my stories. So there is. There is a dimension that I'm I need to continue to think about.
00:22:16.030 --> 00:22:21.119 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): And so I have come to really think of the book as an offering, as a gift
00:22:21.260 --> 00:22:30.350 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): of generosity, not just mine, but the women who shared their stories, because recounting these stories can be therapeutic and cathartic. It can also be retraumatizing.
00:22:30.670 --> 00:22:41.680 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): And some of the women did ask me that they said, What are you doing for yourself as you're hearing all these stories, and you're holding our stories and like the responsibility of telling them
00:22:41.930 --> 00:22:50.809 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): with care. And, you know, change the names of everybody involved, because, unfortunately, the reality is that
00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:54.850 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): these leaders did not feel safe being identified.
00:22:55.406 --> 00:23:00.409 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): So there's there's a heaviness there that I am still working through.
00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:02.849 Mira Brancu: Thank you for sharing that.
00:23:03.150 --> 00:23:12.940 Mira Brancu: I wonder? You know you're recounting this as an experience in Covid, and I'm wondering.
00:23:13.090 --> 00:23:16.189 Mira Brancu: because you also mentioned that you have been rereading it.
00:23:16.550 --> 00:23:18.910 Mira Brancu: Are you seeing it through a different lens?
00:23:18.910 --> 00:23:19.755 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): No.
00:23:20.600 --> 00:23:24.550 Mira Brancu: If so, what are you pulling from it now?
00:23:24.930 --> 00:23:25.600 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Oh.
00:23:26.630 --> 00:23:32.599 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): you know, it's so interesting because of the I've had so many people say, this is so timely. This is
00:23:33.280 --> 00:23:48.800 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): this book is needed now when I was writing it, and I decided it was a book. I didn't have a publisher, so I was just. I had a full transcript manuscript before I even reached out to a publisher, because I was just working full time and writing at night and weekends, and
00:23:50.520 --> 00:23:57.160 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): I was so convinced during the pandemic that if this doesn't get out now, it's not gonna matter as much.
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:05.240 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): I could have never anticipated that there is this, not just national. I think global
00:24:05.310 --> 00:24:22.370 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): need for a conversation around, how we keep replicating the same ideas into our institutions and into our frameworks, into our processes, into how we arrange ourselves. And so, of course, we have predictable effects or outcomes
00:24:22.370 --> 00:24:38.660 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): that are harmful, that are harmful to all of us. So the same argument that I make in the book around workplaces that a white, dominant culture that is based on patriarchy, racial capitalism, and white supremacy harms all people, including those who identify as white and male.
00:24:39.410 --> 00:24:44.099 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): I would make that same argument about society. And I think right now we're seeing it.
00:24:44.711 --> 00:24:53.390 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Play out on the global stage in a way that frankly, I didn't think it could get more magnified than the pandemic. And yet here we are.
00:24:54.550 --> 00:24:55.340 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:57.273 Mira Brancu: And so
00:24:59.620 --> 00:25:05.319 Mira Brancu: I'm just re. I'm I'm gonna sit with this and reflect on it for a second, because there's a lot of places. I can take this
00:25:06.128 --> 00:25:16.960 Mira Brancu: I want to pull out a few areas that I think especially resonated, that are themes that keep
00:25:17.270 --> 00:25:21.750 Mira Brancu: us like we keep cycling around, over and over and over again.
00:25:21.950 --> 00:25:26.769 Mira Brancu: And the 1st is the difference between comfort and safety that has.
00:25:26.770 --> 00:25:27.250 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Stuck with.
00:25:27.250 --> 00:25:27.810 Mira Brancu: Me.
00:25:28.040 --> 00:25:34.909 Mira Brancu: and you know I sort of I I knew it at some level, but now, with with the
00:25:35.320 --> 00:25:44.500 Mira Brancu: juxtaposition that you placed on it. I I'm seeing it everywhere, and I'm thinking about it in different ways, and I'd love to hear how
00:25:45.070 --> 00:25:54.980 Mira Brancu: you see comfort versus safety in different spaces, whether that's unhealthy work, environments, or society, or wherever.
00:25:58.180 --> 00:26:03.710 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): And thank you for sharing that, because that that is a critical
00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:11.283 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): piece and length of the book that I hope that people take with them. So I appreciate you sharing the Testament with you.
00:26:11.810 --> 00:26:16.070 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): I actually changed the order of the book
00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:19.339 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): when I had a full manuscript. I read it.
00:26:19.460 --> 00:26:20.320 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): And
00:26:21.590 --> 00:26:28.979 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): There's a whole chapter in the book for our listeners that is about the distinction between comfort and safety, and it actually came at the end of the stories.
00:26:29.570 --> 00:26:48.960 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): And as I read the manuscript, I thought, actually, I don't want anybody reading these stories before. They understand that, because the stories will be understood differently if we, if you don't have that distinction clearly laid out, and I actually share a very tangible story about my own
00:26:50.300 --> 00:26:58.820 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): experience with developing pretty severe food allergies to sort of make
00:26:59.520 --> 00:27:18.510 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): make an applicable scenario for what this difference is, because when you are so used to things. And so in the culture where you know how to finish each other's sentences, you know what certain body gestures or facial gestures mean words that don't actually mean
00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:29.119 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): the the like. The dictionary meaning they get used, you understand, you know, jargon colloquialisms. These are all things that we take for granted
00:27:29.550 --> 00:27:36.360 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and at work. It might be how you're supposed to relate to your boss or to your peers, or how you talk to a client.
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:39.459 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): These are things that you learn culturally.
00:27:39.650 --> 00:27:42.120 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and there is a comfort to that.
00:27:43.880 --> 00:28:02.319 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): A lot of people that are so used to that because they belong to the dominant mainstream culture anytime that they are uncomfortable, whether it's because someone speaks in a different language, or even with an accent or food that they're not familiar with, or somebody changes the way that you do. Meetings
00:28:03.190 --> 00:28:10.830 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): I have experienced many times, and many of the women that spoke to me and that were surveyed said, I'm constantly aware of
00:28:11.610 --> 00:28:18.289 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): white people's perception of their own comfort, because it when they become uncomfortable.
00:28:19.550 --> 00:28:22.140 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): they erroneously think that they're being attacked.
00:28:23.190 --> 00:28:29.069 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and if you think you're being attacked. Then you think you're not safe, and as soon as your brain thinks that I am unsafe.
00:28:29.350 --> 00:28:52.939 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): a whole set of physiological and psychological things happen that make us interact with each other in a very different way. So it it was a way to explain it intellectually, but also like, can we invite ourselves to try to regulate our nervous system when we have this hit of like. Oh, my God! Something is making me feel bad. I feel attacked
00:28:53.010 --> 00:29:22.320 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): to actually ask ourselves, am I actually in any danger? Is this actually unsafe for me, or am I just uncomfortable because this is unfamiliar? Because this is different than what I'm used to. Am I annoyed by the fact that it's unfamiliar that I don't feel a sense of mastery in this moment, and so there's so many things, and especially when you get into professional spaces among leaders and people who are used to succeeding people who are overachievers
00:29:22.800 --> 00:29:28.959 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): to make someone in that sort of space uncomfortable
00:29:29.810 --> 00:29:47.120 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): is often experiences an attack which can obviously have pretty serious repercussions on you professionally and personally, where you are as a woman of color. Leader. You are perceived as being aggressive, intimidating, scary.
00:29:48.280 --> 00:29:48.889 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): rude.
00:29:50.324 --> 00:29:56.860 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): You know there's a story in there about, you know, different women of color being told you're too confident.
00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:00.890 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and that makes me uncomfortable, and therefore I feel attacked.
00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:14.110 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): So there's just that is such a rampant theme that I felt that it was really important to actually clarify that and to provide a really concrete example before people read the story so that I could
00:30:14.670 --> 00:30:15.570 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): at least
00:30:15.910 --> 00:30:21.609 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): do all I could to make sure that the stories were read with the care and respect
00:30:22.360 --> 00:30:25.199 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and sensitivity that they deserve.
00:30:25.770 --> 00:30:29.947 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I really appreciate that. And it's
00:30:33.310 --> 00:30:38.900 Mira Brancu: It's such an important distinction that we really don't always recognize in ourselves.
00:30:39.050 --> 00:30:50.007 Mira Brancu: So I I recognize we're coming up on an ad break, and when we come back I would love to just spend a little extra time before we move on to the next
00:30:50.520 --> 00:30:53.120 Mira Brancu: part of of the book that resonated.
00:30:53.350 --> 00:30:57.989 Mira Brancu: But I want to spend a little time on the understanding in ourselves
00:30:58.140 --> 00:31:24.940 Mira Brancu: when we're feeling unsafe versus uncomfortable, because I think it's just at the crux of so much of what you just talked about. So you're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Dr. Gabriella Acalde, author of what your comfort cost us. We are on Youtube, Linkedin several other locations@talkradio.nyc. On Tuesdays, at 5 Pm. Eastern. We will be right back in just a moment.
00:32:58.090 --> 00:33:04.050 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Dr. Gabriella.
00:33:04.210 --> 00:33:05.380 Mira Brancu: I'll call Dave
00:33:05.820 --> 00:33:17.769 Mira Brancu: and we're talking about her book, what your comfort costs us, and we just finished talking about safety versus comfort. And I think what she brought up is so important, because
00:33:18.770 --> 00:33:22.249 Mira Brancu: so often when we are uncomfortable.
00:33:22.520 --> 00:33:26.569 Mira Brancu: because someone named some kind of
00:33:26.690 --> 00:33:28.869 Mira Brancu: weakness that they saw in us.
00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:41.819 Mira Brancu: or they're asking us to change in some way, and that means we did something unacceptable, or inappropriate, or hurtful, or whatever it was, experienced right by the other person.
00:33:42.210 --> 00:33:50.759 Mira Brancu: Our immediate response, which is such a human response. And it's such an unfortunate human response
00:33:50.860 --> 00:34:13.500 Mira Brancu: is, our amygdala goes haywire because we're no longer under under these situations. Caveman, being chased by the the you know, saber, tooth, tiger, and so instead, we identify that person's comment as very dangerous to our safety and well-being, and we must shut it down, and we must
00:34:13.500 --> 00:34:22.290 Mira Brancu: stop the the danger from happening right. But in fact, it's just discomfort speaking to us and
00:34:23.469 --> 00:34:27.620 Mira Brancu: as opposed to actual lack of safety.
00:34:27.870 --> 00:34:48.892 Mira Brancu: Where within our country? You know, black people, people of color, you know, people from other marginalized backgrounds that have been subjected to more than just discrimination. But you know actual murder, harmful acts. George Floyd, you know all these folks who?
00:34:49.820 --> 00:34:51.515 Mira Brancu: you know we're
00:34:53.690 --> 00:34:56.900 Mira Brancu: Experiencing physical danger.
00:34:57.500 --> 00:35:08.260 Mira Brancu: And the question is, how do we in the moment recognize and quickly adjust to?
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:13.600 Mira Brancu: Okay, I feel unsafe. I am not unsafe.
00:35:15.399 --> 00:35:23.310 Mira Brancu: This is actually discomfort that is exceptionally unwanted. And yet
00:35:24.510 --> 00:35:38.299 Mira Brancu: I am in. I'm just in a meeting right? I I just. I'm curious. If you have any thoughts on that just from your own personal exploration, or the stories that you've
00:35:39.490 --> 00:35:41.300 Mira Brancu: been privy to hearing.
00:35:41.620 --> 00:35:55.949 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Yeah, that was an excellent way that you just described that. By the way, I, you know part of an example that to add to it is, cultures are conflict avoidant.
00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:00.883 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): A direct communicator can be interpreted as aggressive and as.
00:36:01.340 --> 00:36:02.010 Mira Brancu: True.
00:36:02.240 --> 00:36:15.150 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): So it's even things like that where you may not be confronting somebody. You may just be speaking in a very direct way, and people are not used to that, and it feels like an affront and an attack. So part of what
00:36:16.080 --> 00:36:21.840 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): you know I have learned to do for myself as well, and what I invite others to do is
00:36:22.470 --> 00:36:42.739 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): literally take a deep breath like first, st try to calm your body, because if your body is in that sort of like. Agitated. I am here to defend myself from the bear and the tiger, or run away. Then you're not. You're not there to think through your body is set to respond and react
00:36:43.160 --> 00:37:10.849 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): or to flee, which some people also do. So we want to like, calm the body and literally ask yourself. Am I in danger? Has somebody threatened me in any way? Is there any way that I could be harmed? And it doesn't have to be physical harm, because, in fact, psychological safety is the primary type of safety that I talk about in the book. And there's research that shows the psychological safety places that have high psychological safety are more productive. They're more creative.
00:37:10.910 --> 00:37:25.600 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): There's less conflict among team members, and people tend to stay longer there because they're happier. So there is a very strong like business argument for it as well. And then the other side.
00:37:25.600 --> 00:37:42.410 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): There is really great research around a concept called weathering. It is the research that's been done on African American women that actually shows that there is premature sort of accelerated aging that can be measured at the cellular level
00:37:42.650 --> 00:37:49.580 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): for African American women who say that they have experienced racism.
00:37:49.900 --> 00:37:50.920 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Similar
00:37:52.280 --> 00:38:13.499 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): similar research has been done on maternal mortality and infant mortality, where women who report that they experience racist interactions had worst outcomes in terms of pregnancy and childbirth. So we know that there is a 1-to-one correlation to this experience of feeling unsafe.
00:38:14.100 --> 00:38:17.970 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): There is, there is really no harm from being uncomfortable.
00:38:18.720 --> 00:38:34.180 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): And, in fact, I talk in my book about constructive discomfort, like actually like when you feel that actually like, sit with it like like count to 10. And don't say anything. Don't move, don't react.
00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:41.290 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Just really allow yourself to sit there, because if you do something in your brain will say, Oh.
00:38:41.800 --> 00:38:57.889 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): nothing happened. Nobody attacked me, nobody hit me not. No lion leaked out, you know, and that will allow you to engage in in hopefully a conversation. But in those moments what I recommend is breathing.
00:38:58.200 --> 00:39:01.989 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): not doing anything for at least 10 seconds, and then listening
00:39:02.290 --> 00:39:10.609 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): like really actively listening. Because if we are talking, we are not taking in the situation.
00:39:11.780 --> 00:39:19.900 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Yeah. Great exposure. Therapy. As well. Right? Like exposure. Therapy is all about
00:39:19.900 --> 00:39:41.960 Mira Brancu: recognizing that you're having an anxious response, and then finding a way to sit long enough with the experience that you get through it so that you can realize that you actually got through it. And it, and you survived, and you were just fine, and then elevating that and practicing greater and greater scary things to face. It does make you stronger. It's, you know.
00:39:41.990 --> 00:39:58.619 Mira Brancu: Discomfort is discomfort, like nobody wants it. Nobody likes it right, but it is good to learn, just as like a character strength, building kind of thing. Right? Okay, we could talk about just this topic forever. But I'm going to switch
00:39:58.660 --> 00:40:03.360 Mira Brancu: to a few other portions of your book that I really like and
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:11.200 Mira Brancu: the the second sort of piece I love. I really wanted to. Highlight. Here is you mentioned keeping people apart.
00:40:11.420 --> 00:40:11.920 Mira Brancu: I'm reading.
00:40:11.920 --> 00:40:12.359 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Thanks a lot.
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:15.279 Mira Brancu: Keeping people apart and undermined.
00:40:16.100 --> 00:40:29.129 Mira Brancu: To minimize. The likelihood of pushing for change is what we are seeing now at the societal level as well as organizations. And even we see that in dysfunctional relationships, right and to just to read from your book.
00:40:29.670 --> 00:40:56.450 Mira Brancu: like abusive families, these organizations control relationships among coworkers. While policing and micromanaging behaviors and expression of perspectives among staff they label anyone who leaves or questions anything in the organization in terms of loyalty and betrayal. These workplaces practice, fear and control in place of trust and care for the people within and outside the organization.
00:40:56.590 --> 00:40:57.470 Mira Brancu: So
00:40:58.030 --> 00:41:13.009 Mira Brancu: that's a parallel process of what what we see in dysfunctional relationships and what we see in unhealthy workplace environments is what we're starting to also see at the societal level right now. And
00:41:13.950 --> 00:41:22.450 Mira Brancu: I'm curious. What what can folks do about that when they're experiencing, feeling like
00:41:22.650 --> 00:41:33.579 Mira Brancu: they're being stifled for their perspective. Their experiences are being pushed apart right this polarizing us versus them stuff is
00:41:33.820 --> 00:41:41.130 Mira Brancu: yet again a human experience to decide who is safe and who's not? But
00:41:41.510 --> 00:41:49.999 Mira Brancu: it causes such unhealthy dysfunction. So what are your thoughts on what you've learned about that.
00:41:50.670 --> 00:42:12.880 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Yeah, I mean, it's it's what's fascinating to me is that you see it in settler colonialism, you know, divide and conquer, has been something that throughout history throughout the world has happened. You want to prevent people from aligning and creating solidarity, because then they might be able to overthrow those in power, and that
00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:21.549 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): you know it would. It's not surprising to me, because all of these, as we started at the beginning, these are all human invented concepts. So
00:42:21.680 --> 00:42:31.999 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): we tend to go back to the concepts and the practices that worked. If they've worked in conquering other nations, they work in like
00:42:32.020 --> 00:42:53.750 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): climbing your way up the ladder, and they work, and by they work. I mean that they're short term effective in having control. It doesn't lead to any of the things that we say we want. It doesn't lead to care. It doesn't lead to ease. It doesn't lead to health. It doesn't lead to trusting relationships.
00:42:54.700 --> 00:43:04.339 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): But these there was such a frequent theme among the women I spoke to, and I used to work in intimate partner violence, research.
00:43:05.140 --> 00:43:19.179 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): The same terminology was being used about these workplaces. So these abusive dysfunctional controlling where power and control are at the heart of how we envision, how we relate to each other.
00:43:19.430 --> 00:43:24.159 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): that is replicated from the micro to the macro, and
00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:35.483 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): you know I think it depends on the situation, so I wouldn't necessarily want to give advice. I think this is why, in the book I talk about like, what are the systems that you have in place?
00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:44.580 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): what human resources, what grievance processes! If it is somebody in leadership that is this displaying this behavior.
00:43:44.580 --> 00:44:08.719 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Can you go to the board if it's someone on your board that's displaying this behavior? Who would you go to? Is there an Ombudsman or an arbiter outside an external person? If you don't feel that it's safe to go to anyone inside the organization. So there lie the importance of having policies and structures that actually institutionalize the values that we say we care about because so often
00:44:08.720 --> 00:44:22.020 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): organizations say, these are our values, you know, care, collaboration, partnership, all these like wonderful positive things that most of us would not argue against. And yet the structures and processes that we put in place
00:44:22.190 --> 00:44:27.849 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): not only don't allow for those they undermine those and actually lift up
00:44:28.370 --> 00:44:37.460 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): competition. Vindictive, punishing punitive behavior, you know, keeping people apart. So
00:44:37.580 --> 00:44:49.529 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): there's a real need to make sure that our structures reflect the values that we say we actually care about and to nurture actively culture, because culture is alive, just like our organizations.
00:44:50.210 --> 00:45:12.780 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah, let's we're reaching an ad break when we come back. Let's continue talking around structures and cultures, and how we shape culture to create healthier work environments. So you're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Dr. Gabriela, Alcalde, author of what your comfort costs us, and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:46:51.150 --> 00:47:01.169 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branco and our guest today, Dr. Gabriella, Alcalde, author of what your comfort costs us now.
00:47:01.400 --> 00:47:08.079 Mira Brancu: I can't believe that we're nearing the closing of this time together, because I have a million other questions
00:47:08.287 --> 00:47:13.243 Mira Brancu: want to spend time with you on. However, I do think that
00:47:14.420 --> 00:47:43.730 Mira Brancu: you know where we're going with. This is really critical for for leaders right now, who are thinking, okay, what do I do with this? How do I? If if Gabriella is telling me the structures make a difference and that impacts the culture? How can I start thinking about this in a different way than the way I've been taught from the very beginning of my time as a leader.
00:47:46.540 --> 00:47:48.170 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Number one.
00:47:48.660 --> 00:47:59.510 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Skill, I would say, is curiosity. You have to be really curious, otherwise, we fail to recognize and and catch so many things.
00:48:00.940 --> 00:48:23.229 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): you know. Obviously, I invite our listeners to read my book, and I would also want to mention design studio for social intervention. They have. They wrote an article that I just fell in love with called ideas, arrangements, and effects, and I felt like they articulated a belief that I've had that
00:48:24.600 --> 00:48:29.269 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): our values are both manifested in
00:48:29.650 --> 00:48:35.740 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): sustained by reinforced and protected by the structures that we create.
00:48:36.550 --> 00:48:52.430 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): So when we understand that that means to me that we have to start interrogating. We have to get curious, like, actively curious. First, st you have to identify what your values are you have to like. That's the starting place for anything is, what are the values that you want to drive
00:48:52.640 --> 00:48:57.809 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): your organization, your company, whatever this group is.
00:48:58.160 --> 00:48:59.970 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): And then you need to actually
00:49:00.390 --> 00:49:03.399 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): take each aspect of your organization.
00:49:03.560 --> 00:49:09.209 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): and it can feel quite tedious. But we did this at the foundation where I work now.
00:49:09.430 --> 00:49:16.130 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Every single aspect of our structure, our culture, our leadership, our practices.
00:49:16.510 --> 00:49:24.319 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): even down to our titles, to our position, titles, how we hire people, personnel, manual.
00:49:25.210 --> 00:49:30.030 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): We have to ask ourselves, how are these values being manifested?
00:49:30.430 --> 00:49:44.710 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): And what we did before that was, we said, what does this value actually mean to us? And like lay people's words like, how would we define it to a friend or a family member? What does that look like? And what is evidence that we would see in our workplace
00:49:45.170 --> 00:49:47.309 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): that this value is actually
00:49:47.430 --> 00:50:10.879 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): present and alive. So with that understanding, we practice that repeatedly, and we took that to every aspect of our organization. So we've redone everything, including our organizational structure. Because what we recognize is that our structures and our processes were not. Even our conception of leadership was not aligned with the values we said we had.
00:50:11.270 --> 00:50:15.299 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): We're a Grant making organization. So we were.
00:50:17.290 --> 00:50:25.989 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): We were a good partner, and yet there were so many things we were leaving so many stones we were leaving unturned because we weren't asking ourselves
00:50:26.230 --> 00:50:37.790 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): in a very deliberative way, how is this aligned with the values we said we care about. So we literally do that. And we did that. And when new people come in, we talk like, what does that look like?
00:50:37.930 --> 00:51:02.549 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Our strategic plan is actually a visual theory of change that is built upon our values because we don't. We understand that value. I mean, change is not linear. So we didn't create. An if, then, strategic plan, we created something that is actually quite durable because it is based on our values. So we don't have to change it every 5 years.
00:51:02.550 --> 00:51:12.809 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): We don't have to spend a lot of our resources and our time and energy on something that is going to expire within 5 years and not allow us to respond so
00:51:12.910 --> 00:51:42.370 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): frankly. Shaping this during the pandemic was really helpful. Because we're very aware that plans are nothing when the context changes. So your plans have to be based on something much more durable than the outcomes you want. It has to be based on your values and the purpose. Everything else will flow from that. But that's where you need to insist. That's what you need to consistently compare and ask yourself. So we've developed tools
00:51:42.600 --> 00:51:58.439 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): before and after action reviews. We've developed, you know, equity assessments. For ourselves, we use this great tool called the pop, which is purpose, outcome and process. It starts with purpose. We so often jump straight to the process
00:51:58.781 --> 00:52:26.079 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): or identify what outcomes we have. But no, we and we are. It's a discipline. It's a practice of saying, No, let's start with purpose. And sometimes that means that we don't go any further because we realize actually, that's not aligned with our values that doesn't. That doesn't serve what we said we're about. So we abandon it because saying no to things is just as important as saying yes to things when you're shaping your culture, and you're aligning yourself with your values.
00:52:27.290 --> 00:52:39.799 Mira Brancu: Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant Jamie Abrams left a Linkedin comment. Thank you for this amazing dialogue. I'll be a stronger leader for listening to this dialogue reflecting on these topics and reading this book. Thank you, Jamie.
00:52:39.800 --> 00:52:41.220 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Oh, thank you, Jamie!
00:52:41.220 --> 00:52:56.129 Mira Brancu: And I wanted to highlight a couple of things before we start closing out here that you mentioned 1st and foremost. This you know, strategizing with values and purpose foremost, because they're most durable.
00:52:56.460 --> 00:52:57.740 Mira Brancu: absolutely
00:52:57.960 --> 00:53:19.298 Mira Brancu: brilliant. That makes perfect sense. For those of you who are looking for like a literal step-by-step guide. For what Gabriella mentioned around. You know, defining values behaviorally so that you know what to do with them when you see them or don't see them. Toxic workplace is a good one by Mitch koozy
00:53:19.950 --> 00:53:25.480 Mira Brancu: And then finally, curiosity. I want to end on that one because
00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:37.130 Mira Brancu: and I was just on another podcast. Talking about this, curiosity actually takes a lot of courage
00:53:37.370 --> 00:53:40.539 Mira Brancu: and risk taking to be curious.
00:53:41.310 --> 00:53:50.860 Mira Brancu: It's not this like easy random thing, right? Because if you're curious, what that tells you is, I am open to being wrong.
00:53:51.980 --> 00:53:59.320 Mira Brancu: I. I am right. I am open to changing something that I did that affected people negatively.
00:53:59.430 --> 00:54:10.300 Mira Brancu: or i, and am okay with adjusting, and not everyone is okay with any of that. So it does take
00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:21.650 Mira Brancu: courage and risk taking to just be curious. And that is part of the probably like underlying, you know, like speaks to the values, and how you enact.
00:54:21.650 --> 00:54:22.410 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Oh, yeah.
00:54:22.410 --> 00:54:22.820 Mira Brancu: It was wrong.
00:54:22.820 --> 00:54:39.560 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): Yeah. And I think you know, back to where we started around a leadership being a social construct, leaders in this country are not usually thought of as being people who are open to wanting to change or to admitting mistakes. Right failure is a bad thing, whereas
00:54:40.190 --> 00:54:54.240 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): in my mind failure is actually an essential process of learning. So in the book I actually offer what I call the 4 C's as essential for creating and maintaining a culture
00:54:54.460 --> 00:55:02.390 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): which is curiosity, courage, creativity, and care.
00:55:02.900 --> 00:55:31.839 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): And I really believe in those 4. It just so happened they all start with a C. So it's like nice nice to call them the 4 C's. But they're really, and trust is another one. However, I think you need all of those to get to trust, so I kind of try to find what is at the root of what we actually need to. If you're going to practice public health, you are going to create the conditions for the healthy choice to be the easy choice
00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:43.300 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): in our cultures, in our organizations, we need to create the conditions for our behaviors, our practices to be the courageous creative
00:55:43.550 --> 00:55:52.490 Gabriela Alcalde, MPH, DrPH (she/ella): pairing and creative. And you do that by constantly aligning with values and remaining curious.
00:55:52.700 --> 00:56:19.660 Mira Brancu: Excellent, excellent. So lots of good stuff here, if you're watching right now, I have her website up Www. Dot Mgalcalde, A. LCAL de.com. You could also grab her link tree at same thing. Backslash mga, LCAL DE mg, alcalde and audience.
00:56:20.130 --> 00:56:25.360 Mira Brancu: What is one thing that you took away from today?
00:56:25.700 --> 00:56:32.260 Mira Brancu: And importantly, what small change exposure therapy here, folks.
00:56:32.730 --> 00:56:39.130 Mira Brancu: small change. Can you implement this week based on what she shared with us, share it with us, on Linkedin
00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:58.190 Mira Brancu: and@talkradio.nyc. And if you enjoy this, podcast make sure that you subscribe on Amazon or spotify or apple podcasts wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're looking for more personalized support, you could also head to my
00:56:58.410 --> 00:57:01.950 Mira Brancu: website@gotowerscope.com.
00:57:02.590 --> 00:57:23.590 Mira Brancu: Thank you. Talk radio for hosting together. We will navigate the complexities of leadership and emerge stronger on the other side, and thank you for joining me and Dr. Gabriela Alkali today on this journey. This is Dr. Mira Branco, signing off until next time. Stay, steady, stay present, and keep building those hard skills.
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:25.240 Mira Brancu: Bye, everybody.
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