EPISODE SUMMARY:
"Why should you listen to The Human Score: Redefining Human Centricity in Organizations?
Because it’s not just another conversation about workplace culture — it’s a radical rethinking of how organizations truly value and sustain their people. In this insightful interview, Dr. Clif, the self-described “Corporate Doula,” pulls back the curtain on the silent epidemics of disengagement, burnout, and psychological neglect happening in companies worldwide.
If you’re a leader, HR professional, or someone navigating the modern workplace, you’ll leave with a deeper understanding of why chasing metrics like turnover and absenteeism misses the mark. More importantly, you’ll be introduced to The Human Score, a fresh, actionable framework that helps uncover the hidden emotional and systemic stress points within organizations — the things no traditional engagement survey will ever show you.
Dr. Clif’s global perspective, paired with his hopeful pragmatism, reminds us that addressing mental wellness and systemic alignment isn’t just the right thing to do — it’s the smart thing. This interview will challenge you to rethink how success is measured in your company, and inspire you to be part of building healthier, more human-centered workplaces.
If you care about people, culture, and the future of work — this is the conversation you need to hear."
"In this insightful interview titled ""The Human Score: Redefining Human Centricity in Organizations,"" Dr. Clif sits down with P. Lewis for The Happy Spot to explore the urgent intersection between psychology, leadership, and organizational systems. Dr. Clif, known as a ""Corporate Doula,"" shares how this evocative title embodies his role in helping organizations birth healthier, more human-centric cultures. The early part of the conversation unpacks the concept of ""Human Centricity,"" positioning it not as a trend but as a vital framework for rebuilding modern companies around authentic engagement and well-being. He critiques the obsession with performance metrics like turnover and absenteeism, arguing these are symptoms of deeper cultural misalignments and psychological neglect.
Dr. Clif introduces The Human Score, a novel diagnostic approach that transcends traditional employee engagement surveys. This tool is designed to surface the invisible emotional and systemic friction points within a company, using human experience as the foundation for organizational growth. With firsthand insights from work across four continents, Dr. Clif paints a picture of global disengagement, burnout, and mental health deterioration—yet remains optimistic about transformation. His emphasis is clear: solving for mental wellness and systemic misalignment isn't just ethical; it's strategic. The interview ultimately challenges business leaders to rethink how they measure success—not by output, but by the health of the human systems that generate it."
https://linktr.ee/clifplewis
In this uplifting episode of The Happy Spot, Dr. Clif Lewis joins from South Africa to explore the concept of the “Human Score” and the importance of human-centric systems in organizations. With heartfelt honesty, he shares how his personal journey—from growing up in a conservative bubble to working globally—sparked a deep desire to reduce suffering by reimagining leadership and business practices. His metaphor as a “corporate doula” beautifully reframes organizational transformation, emphasizing that true growth and dignity come when companies embrace both birth and death, putting people—not profits—at the center of their purpose.
Dr. Clif Lewis explains that truly human-centric organizations don’t just offer perks—they embed care for people into every major decision, from leadership to community impact. He emphasizes that many performance metrics like burnout and absenteeism are symptoms of deeper problems: a loss of meaning, disconnection from purpose, and the prioritization of profit over people. To address this, he introduces the Human Score—a tool designed to help companies measure how well they center humanity, offering actionable insights to reshape culture and restore the essential joy of meaningful work.
Dr. Clif Lewis unpacks how the Human Score works as a values-driven, systemic alternative to traditional engagement surveys, measuring dimensions like fairness, work design, and decision-making through employee input. Unlike surface-level metrics, this tool promotes cultural change by revealing how truly aligned (or misaligned) an organization is with human-centric principles—and it gives companies a way to signal progress publicly. Clif’s ultimate hope is not just widespread adoption but an ongoing community effort to refine and evolve the tool together, so it becomes a true agent for compassionate and meaningful work environments.
Dr. Cliff Lewis shares a hopeful vision of the future—one where the Human Score helps organizations return agency and dignity to workers by creating meaning-rich, human-centered environments. He emphasizes the importance of collective action over individual struggle to change systems that often thrive on disempowerment, and advocates for storytelling as a powerful tool to foster connection, psychological safety, and organizational transformation. Ultimately, he invites others to co-create systemic change through feedback, conversation, and courageous experimentation, reminding us that building a more human world of work starts with seeing—and valuing—each other.
00:00:19.690 --> 00:00:26.429 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Hello, and welcome to the happy spot. Interview with Dr. Cliff P. Lewis.
00:00:26.890 --> 00:00:32.750 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: We're going to be talking about the human score, redefining human centricity in organizations.
00:00:33.290 --> 00:00:35.169 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Welcome, Dr. Cliff.
00:00:35.930 --> 00:00:37.840 Clif Lewis: Hi! Clementina! Thanks for having me.
00:00:38.210 --> 00:00:42.889 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: You're welcome, and you're joining us all the way from Cape Town, South Africa. So it is.
00:00:42.890 --> 00:00:43.350 Clif Lewis: I am.
00:00:43.751 --> 00:00:47.769 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Nearly midnight there, or have we just have we just.
00:00:47.770 --> 00:00:50.570 Clif Lewis: We're we're just 1 min past midnight. Yeah.
00:00:50.570 --> 00:00:56.180 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Well, then, good morning, sir, how are you? How are you?
00:00:56.950 --> 00:01:05.569 Clif Lewis: I'm good. I'm good. I thought it was going to be a bit more tired, but I'm very excited to talk about the human score, so I'm energized and happy to chat with you.
00:01:05.570 --> 00:01:23.389 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Great. I'm excited, too, so let's get. Let's jump right in then. So for those who don't know anything about it in your own words. Tell us who you are, and how you arrived at the intersection of psychology, leadership, and human systems.
00:01:24.170 --> 00:01:26.239 Clif Lewis: Oh, wow! How long do I have.
00:01:26.714 --> 00:01:29.085 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: We? We have an hour.
00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:36.710 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Well, all right. So let me see if I can do the abridged version. So I'm a psychologist by by training.
00:01:37.070 --> 00:01:54.599 Clif Lewis: By trade. But when I started doing research, so different countries have different approaches and requirements in South Africa. If you want to be a psychologist. You have to have a Master's degree, I know, in the United States you have to have a Psyd. It's a little bit different here. So we start.
00:01:54.720 --> 00:02:01.089 Clif Lewis: Are you sort of get a taste for research when you when you do, your masters
00:02:01.270 --> 00:02:03.969 Clif Lewis: and I kind of
00:02:04.160 --> 00:02:24.469 Clif Lewis: realized that I don't want to work with individual people. Necessarily, I'm more interested in people as groups, and how people operate within systems, and how systems can empower people or appraise people. A lot of those themes came through in my master's research, my doctoral research.
00:02:25.291 --> 00:02:29.019 Clif Lewis: I didn't have quite the linear
00:02:29.130 --> 00:02:41.689 Clif Lewis: career path that my peers and my colleagues typically have where you go to university, you do your master's, you register, you practice. I didn't do that, and
00:02:42.170 --> 00:02:58.050 Clif Lewis: I suppose if you want to answer the question as to why I arrived at that I don't. I don't know. I suppose I get bored easily. So I had a very non traditional career trajectory. I was very, very fortunate to have worked all over the world
00:02:58.450 --> 00:03:06.865 Clif Lewis: present papers all over the world and just interacting with so many different people and organizations.
00:03:08.420 --> 00:03:17.169 Clif Lewis: I realized that I don't just want to do psychology. I want to do so many other things. And I think that the human score
00:03:17.640 --> 00:03:22.619 Clif Lewis: is a good representation of that intersection.
00:03:23.260 --> 00:03:27.019 Clif Lewis: really looking at systems in organizations
00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:33.020 Clif Lewis: that, to be honest, aren't doing so well by people.
00:03:33.190 --> 00:03:40.250 Clif Lewis: And I, there's a lot of leaders out there who uphold those systems.
00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:52.069 Clif Lewis: But in my own work, as I mentioned, I do a whole bunch of different stuff. One of the things that I do is executive coaching, and I meet a lot of leaders who actually do want to make their organizations more
00:03:52.690 --> 00:03:56.790 Clif Lewis: human centric. But they don't know how, and
00:03:57.340 --> 00:04:10.010 Clif Lewis: working with the amazing organization, the octopus movement we collaborated, and we arrived at the at the human score. I know that wasn't your question. Your question was about how I arrived at it
00:04:10.010 --> 00:04:13.120 Clif Lewis: intersection, but I suppose they all bleed into each other.
00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:20.229 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: I got you. I got you, I know, for for nonlinear thinkers which which joins us at the Octopus
00:04:20.390 --> 00:04:23.289 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: over at the Octopus movement.
00:04:23.290 --> 00:04:52.440 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: It can be. It can be hard to answer a question with it, you know, in a very in a box, right? So I got so much so. I was listening for, you know pieces that I'm going to put together and say back to you, and then ask you if you would, to just drill down a little deeper, and I'll guide you with the question that I that I really want to know. So what I heard from you is that you prefer groups of people over
00:04:52.490 --> 00:05:08.600 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: one. You know the study of one person. Right? You said you like to do a lot of different things. So putting yourself, you know, solely in that psychology box, you know, didn't feel so good. So you know, the expansive quality of
00:05:08.680 --> 00:05:23.199 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: you know, of combining psychology, leadership and human systems is what really does it for you. So I really get that. But as a memoirist and a writing coach, I myself wondered, okay, but what
00:05:23.290 --> 00:05:44.350 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: what really makes you the perfect person to do that? Is there a more personal answer? And if there's not, that's okay, just my own curiosity gets the better of me. I have found in, you know, talking to so many people that there's always a deeply personal reason that they do what they do.
00:05:44.350 --> 00:05:44.950 Clif Lewis: Oh.
00:05:45.320 --> 00:06:01.470 Clif Lewis: 100% cannot agree more. So you you mentioned that I'm calling you or we're speaking well, I mean, in Cape Town, in the United States. So I am a South African. I know I sound a bit weird, but that's just because I've been to so many places.
00:06:01.965 --> 00:06:02.460 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yeah.
00:06:02.460 --> 00:06:07.210 Clif Lewis: The accents. The accent's a bit whack, but so
00:06:08.746 --> 00:06:23.233 Clif Lewis: I'm a South African. I'm a white South African. I'm a middle class, white South African, and I'm a man. So as I grew up, so I grew up in a very conservative
00:06:23.900 --> 00:06:32.220 Clif Lewis: town, very much an insular kind of bubble, and when I mean I was I was 18 years old.
00:06:32.390 --> 00:06:51.050 Clif Lewis: and I still thought most South Africans were white and Afrikaans. No, not 1816. It's a little bit less bad. It's pretty much still bad. If you know anything about South Africa, you know that that's definitely not the case. I think white people are about like 7% of the population. So
00:06:51.390 --> 00:06:53.320 Clif Lewis: I really grew up in a bubble.
00:06:53.730 --> 00:07:07.880 Clif Lewis: and as I were afforded opportunities to step out of that bubble. So going to University number one, you know, leaving the town, I'm seeing people who are who look different from me, who live differently from me, who
00:07:08.320 --> 00:07:16.700 Clif Lewis: experience life in different ways. And then, you know, going overseas, studying overseas, working overseas like it feels like with each
00:07:19.070 --> 00:07:25.940 Clif Lewis: passing day. I become more and more acutely aware of.
00:07:26.150 --> 00:07:34.382 Clif Lewis: I don't want to bring this interview to it to a very down level, but I get very aware of all the pain
00:07:34.960 --> 00:07:37.659 Clif Lewis: that I have been spared. From
00:07:37.890 --> 00:07:43.779 Clif Lewis: that I have had the fortune and the privilege to not have to experience
00:07:45.260 --> 00:07:49.960 Clif Lewis: and I really, without sounding too much of a cliche. I really want to
00:07:50.430 --> 00:08:04.770 Clif Lewis: do my part to alleviate that pain and suffering in whichever way or form it happens, and as a psychologist you can choose to work with individuals and help them.
00:08:04.870 --> 00:08:09.970 Clif Lewis: you know, work with their own individual issues and struggles, and help them through that. Or
00:08:10.500 --> 00:08:17.270 Clif Lewis: you could choose the route that I chose, and work at a more systemic or group level which
00:08:17.860 --> 00:08:37.430 Clif Lewis: I think my temperament. I've come to learn over the years that I get very passionate about things, and that's not always a very good temperament when you're working in the therapeutic. Not that I do therapy. I don't do that types of work, anyway. But.
00:08:38.789 --> 00:08:43.149 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yeah, that totally perfect. And that that's the perfect.
00:08:43.150 --> 00:08:43.760 Clif Lewis: From.
00:08:44.049 --> 00:08:54.079 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yeah, that's the thank you so much for sharing all that. So this is a perfect segue into my next question, which is, you've been called a corporate doula.
00:08:54.489 --> 00:09:03.049 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: And it's it's such a powerful metaphor. How did that come about? What does it really mean? What does it mean to you?
00:09:04.490 --> 00:09:10.260 Clif Lewis: Yeah. So I have to say, I didn't come up with that term. I think it's a. It's a
00:09:10.580 --> 00:09:20.870 Clif Lewis: amazing way of looking at transformation in organizations. I mean, we've been talking about organizational transformation for decades. You know.
00:09:21.460 --> 00:09:21.940 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Sure.
00:09:21.970 --> 00:09:28.079 Clif Lewis: Many years ago. It was along the lines of globalization. And then it was
00:09:28.410 --> 00:09:37.970 Clif Lewis: making organizations more inclusive. More recently, transformation from a technological perspective. And I think one of the big issues
00:09:38.570 --> 00:09:51.480 Clif Lewis: as I've mentioned with each passing day, I realize more and more about the pain that's in the world. I also realized that some of that pain. Well, a lot of that pain comes from how our industries are set up.
00:09:51.860 --> 00:09:54.170 Clif Lewis: and one of the big issues is
00:09:55.540 --> 00:09:58.330 Clif Lewis: corporate entities don't want to die.
00:09:58.510 --> 00:10:10.300 Clif Lewis: and everything organic and everything real and everything organic or real or natural, dies. You know. We get an opportunity to live, and then
00:10:10.700 --> 00:10:18.969 Clif Lewis: then it's someone else's turn or something else's turn. You know a tree grows out of our remains, and then it's the tree's turn.
00:10:19.540 --> 00:10:26.290 Clif Lewis: and the Corpora Doula to me, speaks to that birth and death with dignity.
00:10:26.640 --> 00:10:39.919 Clif Lewis: and I think corporate entities have a lot to learn from that sort of metaphor and that way of looking at it. You don't constantly have to grow and grow and get more and have a bigger margin. And because
00:10:40.610 --> 00:10:50.819 Clif Lewis: that's that's when an organization turns cancerous, in my opinion. But we can grow. We can create new opportunities. We can create new organizations. And then
00:10:51.250 --> 00:10:55.690 Clif Lewis: the organization needs to die at some point and.
00:10:55.690 --> 00:10:56.300 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: That's
00:10:57.552 --> 00:11:01.409 Clif Lewis: I think, reframing that whole process.
00:11:01.820 --> 00:11:10.300 Clif Lewis: and having people assist with that process and framing that assistance as a doula makes it more natural. It makes it more, I think.
00:11:10.570 --> 00:11:30.990 Clif Lewis: organic. That's my view of it, that's my understanding of it. But my business partners at the Happy Spot, or my colleagues at the happy spot. I have to give them the credit. That's their conceptualization, but it so resonates with me and my perspective of business and industry as well, and the problems that I see.
00:11:31.350 --> 00:11:33.799 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Wonderful wonderful. So
00:11:33.920 --> 00:11:54.290 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: I guess before I ask you to tell me more about the human score, I'd like you to, just for our audience who might, you know, they may have heard the term, but they're not quite sure. What. What does it mean to be human centric? What does human centricity mean now? And and why is it such a big conversation for companies right now?
00:11:54.850 --> 00:11:57.272 Clif Lewis: Oh, that's such a good question.
00:11:58.740 --> 00:12:05.690 Clif Lewis: right? So in essence, human centricity is exactly what it says. Humans are at the center.
00:12:06.350 --> 00:12:20.369 Clif Lewis: and I hear a lot of anti-capitalist critiques that says that capital used to be in service of people or in service of society.
00:12:21.077 --> 00:12:24.209 Clif Lewis: That has changed since like the seventies.
00:12:24.610 --> 00:12:31.269 Clif Lewis: I'm not an economist, but that was kind of when the at least in the West.
00:12:31.890 --> 00:12:39.669 Clif Lewis: The the focus shifted and we started working for capital.
00:12:40.040 --> 00:12:43.750 Clif Lewis: and you're going to have to remind me. What was your question again? Because I.
00:12:43.750 --> 00:12:49.830 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: No, I'm happy to. I'm sure I'm sure the audience will appreciate that as well.
00:12:49.830 --> 00:12:50.560 Clif Lewis: I'm so disappointed.
00:12:52.565 --> 00:12:54.570 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Right.
00:12:54.570 --> 00:12:55.110 Clif Lewis: So.
00:12:55.110 --> 00:12:57.150 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: I mean you said briefly.
00:12:57.150 --> 00:12:58.370 Clif Lewis: Blur at the same term.
00:12:58.660 --> 00:12:59.340 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Right.
00:12:59.560 --> 00:13:07.200 Clif Lewis: Yes, and I see a lot of organizations try to be human centric by having all kinds of perks and
00:13:07.350 --> 00:13:11.770 Clif Lewis: things that they just slap on. But people aren't really at the center.
00:13:11.950 --> 00:13:13.210 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: And.
00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:22.299 Clif Lewis: I think we need to go to break. But that's essentially what humans interest is is people being at the center. Now, what exactly that means is a bit more nuanced.
00:13:23.110 --> 00:13:30.860 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: So let's talk about when we come back. Let's talk about what it looks some examples of what it looks like when humans are at the center.
00:13:31.010 --> 00:13:32.629 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Thank you so much.
00:15:01.220 --> 00:15:03.730 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: All right. So we're back with Dr. Cliff
00:15:04.250 --> 00:15:27.260 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: to us tonight about the human score, human centricity and all kinds of great things. Thanks to our friends at the happy spot, whose mission is always to educate, inspire, and uplift, and create better business through the power of happiness. So, speaking of better business through the power of happiness. Dr. Cliff. What would
00:15:27.680 --> 00:15:33.090 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: human, a human centric focus in business look like? What are some examples of it?
00:15:33.870 --> 00:15:40.300 Clif Lewis: Right. So, as I mentioned just before the break, human centricity has people at the center.
00:15:40.430 --> 00:15:45.780 Clif Lewis: Now, that might seem well, yeah, we consider people in everything that we do
00:15:45.990 --> 00:15:55.809 Clif Lewis: but it in. In fact, it is extremely hard being human centric in our current global
00:15:56.760 --> 00:16:00.169 Clif Lewis: industry set up the way that the way that industries are set up.
00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:02.650 Clif Lewis: Because
00:16:03.030 --> 00:16:13.660 Clif Lewis: what is required of organizations to survive in most cases is not putting people at the center just considering people on the periphery as a means to an end.
00:16:14.130 --> 00:16:20.289 Clif Lewis: And so what an organization looks like that is people centric. So
00:16:20.730 --> 00:16:27.120 Clif Lewis: my work currently with the happy spot, and the human score focuses specifically on employees.
00:16:27.630 --> 00:16:42.540 Clif Lewis: But human centricity extends to all all human stakeholders in business, so it includes customers. It includes the communities they serve. The businesses serve its suppliers. You know that whole everyone that's involved.
00:16:43.300 --> 00:16:44.350 Clif Lewis: and
00:16:45.050 --> 00:17:02.140 Clif Lewis: when your organization is human centric, it means whenever there is a big decision that needs to be made. The question has to be answered, how is this affecting the humans? How is this affecting my people? And in our case, specifically, we look at how that affects our employees.
00:17:03.260 --> 00:17:18.899 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Great. So you often say that metrics like turnover and absenteeism, those are symptoms, not causes. What? What are organizations missing when they when they chase performance. Metrics.
00:17:23.250 --> 00:17:25.290 Clif Lewis: Many things.
00:17:25.689 --> 00:17:30.480 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: I made it sound like it was gonna be an easy answer.
00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:37.117 Clif Lewis: Things but 1. 1 of one of those things is an opportunity for meaning
00:17:37.860 --> 00:17:42.650 Clif Lewis: I'm not one for romanticizing the past at all. But if you go back, maybe like.
00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:51.229 Clif Lewis: like, just like pre pre industrial revolution, and you look at various
00:17:51.610 --> 00:17:57.419 Clif Lewis: traits that people had and professions that people had that were actually
00:17:57.570 --> 00:18:01.190 Clif Lewis: a way for people to create meaning in their life a way.
00:18:01.190 --> 00:18:01.670 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: To serve.
00:18:01.670 --> 00:18:05.950 Clif Lewis: The community as humans, our natural.
00:18:07.070 --> 00:18:16.010 Clif Lewis: our natural tendency is towards the collective. As humans, we're hardwired as a survival mechanism
00:18:16.170 --> 00:18:27.439 Clif Lewis: to work together. We didn't become the apex predator on the planet, because we're the smartest or the strongest. It's because of our ability to to work as a collective.
00:18:28.300 --> 00:18:30.590 Clif Lewis: But the way in which we work
00:18:31.390 --> 00:18:47.399 Clif Lewis: has completely divorced us from our labor and from the work that we do. We're we're in most people's cases, I mean, I'm very fortunate because I can see the direct impact of my work. But in most people's cases
00:18:47.810 --> 00:18:56.439 Clif Lewis: they they don't really see the impact of their work. They just feel like, because most of the time they are just a cog in a bigger machine.
00:18:56.440 --> 00:18:58.120 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: And it's very difficult.
00:18:58.120 --> 00:19:03.390 Clif Lewis: It's very, very difficult to create meaning from that. So you're essentially living a meaningless life.
00:19:03.990 --> 00:19:28.830 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: That is so fascinating. I'm a huge fan of Dr. Frankel's man. Search for meaning, and you know again, as a book coach and a co-creator all the time I see people writing memoir personal story trying to make meaning, that is, it's like it's a compulsion of ours as human beings to make meaning
00:19:29.530 --> 00:19:38.400 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: right. And it's such an important part of our overall health that like, wow! I never put it. I never put it together.
00:19:38.530 --> 00:19:51.460 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: You know we're in, you know, sort of, and looked looked at. You know what's the role of meaning in a corporate? And you know, in a corporate environment, I never thought about it the way until you just said it that way. So that's wow. So that's definitely something.
00:19:51.700 --> 00:19:54.559 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yeah, they're missing. Right is is how.
00:19:54.560 --> 00:19:58.940 Clif Lewis: And there's so many challenges to doing that, to be able to do that.
00:19:59.730 --> 00:20:03.049 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: To be. It's for who challenges, for who to do what.
00:20:03.280 --> 00:20:08.019 Clif Lewis: For us, for us as humans who work to be able to create meaning from that work
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:12.799 Clif Lewis: and to create meaning from our work and to create meaning from organizational life.
00:20:13.628 --> 00:20:17.209 Clif Lewis: Because of how work is structured and how organization.
00:20:17.210 --> 00:20:17.670 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Right.
00:20:17.670 --> 00:20:18.200 Clif Lewis: Richard.
00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:24.519 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Right. Right. But you were saying once upon a time it wasn't that hard. It was just something people did.
00:20:24.820 --> 00:20:33.730 Clif Lewis: Before we had. Yeah, before we had. You know, the the current corporate enterprise that we that we see today. Yeah.
00:20:33.870 --> 00:20:43.600 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yeah, that's that's that's fascinating. So it's probably no surprise to you that we're living through what some call a global mental health crisis.
00:20:44.050 --> 00:20:44.730 Clif Lewis: Oh, yeah.
00:20:45.070 --> 00:20:51.550 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: 47.6 billion is lost annually to missed work just in the Us.
00:20:53.500 --> 00:20:56.033 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: How much of that, do you think is
00:20:56.850 --> 00:21:02.220 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: due to, or you know what's your picture of how you know what's the role of mental health
00:21:02.750 --> 00:21:05.380 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: or wellness in that picture?
00:21:07.370 --> 00:21:10.879 Clif Lewis: See, this is now when I start turning into a
00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:16.439 Clif Lewis: Hippie commune, liberal.
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:19.560 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yay!
00:21:21.120 --> 00:21:26.647 Clif Lewis: Because because often when we have discussions about things like
00:21:28.040 --> 00:21:41.720 Clif Lewis: mental well-being in business or inclusion in business, or the more fluffy things in business. I don't personally think they're fluffy, but a lot of people would categorize them as such.
00:21:42.010 --> 00:21:43.643 Clif Lewis: And so
00:21:45.730 --> 00:21:58.019 Clif Lewis: there's often 2 schools of thought. The one is the business case, and the one is the social justice case. So from a business case, it would be like, how much more money can I make. If my people are better equipped to handle
00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:08.670 Clif Lewis: mental well-being challenges, and the social justice case is well, what's the right thing to do now? My my stance is always like
00:22:09.620 --> 00:22:15.500 Clif Lewis: right. So if I cannot prove somehow empirically.
00:22:15.770 --> 00:22:19.289 Clif Lewis: that there's a direct impact of mental health on, you know.
00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:27.039 Clif Lewis: business outcomes, like, say, profit or market share or growth, or whatever, then am I not going to care about mental health?
00:22:27.690 --> 00:22:34.649 Clif Lewis: And the answer to that is kind of yeah, because until something affects
00:22:34.790 --> 00:22:43.360 Clif Lewis: something like you mentioned turnover absenteeism due to mental health organizations. Kind of go. Hmm.
00:22:44.040 --> 00:22:46.510 Clif Lewis: I'll worry about it when it becomes a problem.
00:22:46.700 --> 00:22:56.100 Clif Lewis: So to answer your question in a very long-winded way. I think it's very important because humans aren't machines.
00:22:56.250 --> 00:22:59.000 Clif Lewis: and it is the right thing to do.
00:22:59.130 --> 00:23:09.379 Clif Lewis: But if you're a business business case school of Thought Person. Then it's just good business. It's just good business, I mean.
00:23:09.800 --> 00:23:19.469 Clif Lewis: you know, if you if you want, if you want people to to do proper work. You can't expect them to do the work while ill. It makes no sense.
00:23:19.910 --> 00:23:22.260 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Right? Right? Right?
00:23:24.460 --> 00:23:30.539 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: So in your experience. How well do companies really understand?
00:23:30.760 --> 00:23:31.810 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: You know
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:38.380 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: the effects of burnout, and you know, I mean? I guess they they recognize for sure that they're
00:23:38.590 --> 00:23:49.199 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: you know, that their profit margins are shrinking, or that there are these losses. But are they able? You know how much denial is there, I guess, is another way.
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:51.030 Clif Lewis: Let me tell you what that
00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:54.770 Clif Lewis: fascinating question I promise you. Listen.
00:23:55.090 --> 00:23:55.410 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: So.
00:23:55.410 --> 00:24:12.700 Clif Lewis: I cannot disclose who, because this is a large organization, and I don't want to get sued. But I was doing as part of a don't want to give too much away in case someone gets a hold of my resume. But anyway, I was doing work for this big organization right.
00:24:12.860 --> 00:24:16.500 Clif Lewis: And one of the things that I worked on
00:24:17.433 --> 00:24:27.199 Clif Lewis: this is like just as remote work and hybrid work started getting sort of traction post that Hard Lockdown in 2020.
00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:33.830 Clif Lewis: Organizations were like, you know what this is. Actually, this is actually cool, like, you know, let's do this.
00:24:35.730 --> 00:24:42.380 Clif Lewis: I was part of a team that put together a fatigue policy. So this isn't even
00:24:42.770 --> 00:24:45.640 Clif Lewis: a wellness policy. This is a very
00:24:45.860 --> 00:24:50.699 Clif Lewis: narrow, specific fatigue policy, because people
00:24:50.900 --> 00:24:57.969 Clif Lewis: I mean, everyone has heard the story. People started working remote, and they started burning out right? I'm actually currently working on a research paper.
00:24:58.780 --> 00:25:08.180 Clif Lewis: The the journal sent it back. We had to make edits which we're not feeling very good about. But so we we
00:25:08.180 --> 00:25:08.580 Clif Lewis: no wonder.
00:25:08.580 --> 00:25:20.519 Clif Lewis: Research on burnout. Yeah, yeah, I hate it. When the publishers do that right, and I promise you there was. So there was a policy. There was a fatigue policy.
00:25:20.790 --> 00:25:28.470 Clif Lewis: and I was a consultant. So I was working after hours because I was billing by the hour. But there were salaried employees
00:25:29.340 --> 00:25:34.030 Clif Lewis: who were time and time again I would log onto my computer and I would see the green.
00:25:34.350 --> 00:25:37.439 Clif Lewis: the green dot on their team's name.
00:25:37.850 --> 00:25:41.110 Clif Lewis: and I would message them kind of tongue in cheek, and say.
00:25:41.510 --> 00:25:54.520 Clif Lewis: should I send you the link to the fatigue policy, and they'd be like, oh, no, I just need to do some stuff. And this wasn't in isolated cases. These were like, this is a trend. And so
00:25:55.200 --> 00:26:02.050 Clif Lewis: companies know this. They put in a fatigue policy, or a wellness policy, or something more general.
00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:10.639 Clif Lewis: and then they kind of just expect things to continue as they are because people aren't at the center.
00:26:10.950 --> 00:26:14.610 Clif Lewis: Other things are at the center like efficiency productivity.
00:26:16.750 --> 00:26:27.310 Clif Lewis: Microsoft does a workplace index. I forget. I forget the actual name, but they do an annual work
00:26:28.010 --> 00:26:38.849 Clif Lewis: work index. I forget the actual name, but in 2020 two's 1 there was a fascinating statistic on hybrid and remote work, where
00:26:39.070 --> 00:26:44.689 Clif Lewis: something like 80% of employees feel that they
00:26:45.310 --> 00:26:48.459 Clif Lewis: are productive when they work remote or hybrid.
00:26:49.000 --> 00:27:07.000 Clif Lewis: But a fraction of executives or people in leadership. Roles felt that their people like were productive, working remotely. So. There's such a disconnect in those who make decisions. And that's why I kind of keep going back to. People have to be at the center of decisions.
00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:30.230 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: So so let's let's move on to what we really to what we really want to talk about the really exciting stuff. So tell us about the human score, and you know how that's what is it? What makes it different from traditional employee engagement surveys? And and I think, most importantly, you know, how is it going to help with this problem? How how is it going to help to bring humans to the center.
00:27:31.180 --> 00:27:35.569 Clif Lewis: Right. So it is a tool for
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:47.689 Clif Lewis: people in decision making roles who have already made the decision that they want to be more human centric, whether that is for the business case or the social justice case that's between
00:27:48.260 --> 00:28:03.120 Clif Lewis: them and their mother. But it it is something that you can hold on to, because the notion of human centricity is so nebulous. It's easy to say it's people at the center. But what does that really mean in in.
00:28:03.120 --> 00:28:04.120 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Access
00:28:05.120 --> 00:28:11.189 Clif Lewis: That can mean so many different things in different companies, in different countries, in different industries.
00:28:11.590 --> 00:28:15.570 Clif Lewis: So the human score
00:28:15.780 --> 00:28:25.189 Clif Lewis: is a tool for that. And so what it does is it's kind of like like a pyramid or an iceberg, whatever metaphor you want to choose. So
00:28:25.860 --> 00:28:49.329 Clif Lewis: at the very top. It gives you an overall score of like you're doing well or not doing so well, and then it breaks that score down into various different dimensions to tell you, why are you doing so well or not so well? And where in these areas you're doing well or not so well. And we also give recommendations
00:28:50.580 --> 00:28:52.380 Clif Lewis: based on the actual scores.
00:28:53.810 --> 00:28:59.319 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Great great. I think we're gonna go to break right now. So when we come back we will talk about those.
00:28:59.320 --> 00:29:03.989 Clif Lewis: I can blab more about the about my methodology and my analytics.
00:29:04.705 --> 00:29:06.639 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: I can't wait.
00:29:07.190 --> 00:29:08.490 Clif Lewis: Cool. Can't wait.
00:30:28.930 --> 00:30:44.849 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Hello! Hello! I'm so happy to be back with Dr. Cliff all the way from South Africa, joining us tonight to talk about the human score, and we were up to the really exciting part where you were. Gonna kinda get into the nitty gritty of.
00:30:45.140 --> 00:30:46.040 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: you know.
00:30:46.300 --> 00:30:57.323 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Kind of telling us about it, you know. How does it work? What does it measure? What's your I mean? I feel like asking you what's your favorite question? I I took it last night, and
00:30:58.050 --> 00:31:03.117 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: I had some fun with it. I definitely had some favorite questions.
00:31:03.540 --> 00:31:09.013 Clif Lewis: Sure. I think you also mentioned how it's different from engagement surveys.
00:31:09.470 --> 00:31:10.010 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: That's such.
00:31:10.010 --> 00:31:14.890 Clif Lewis: Good question, because I think a lot of the time when
00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:28.530 Clif Lewis: organizations want to do work on being more human centric or being more people focused or being more sensitive to how people experience organizational life engagement is usually a go to.
00:31:28.970 --> 00:31:40.149 Clif Lewis: And so I'm not hating on engagement surveys or or any kind of work in that field. I think it's great. Just think, it's a bit limited.
00:31:40.320 --> 00:31:40.750 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: -
00:31:41.290 --> 00:31:49.389 Clif Lewis: And it's not. And it's it's not. Some are. But it's not as systemically focused.
00:31:49.620 --> 00:31:50.330 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Right.
00:31:50.845 --> 00:31:53.420 Clif Lewis: Which the human score is.
00:31:53.660 --> 00:32:00.329 Clif Lewis: So should I maybe go into a little bit more detail in the various dimensions that it measures.
00:32:00.330 --> 00:32:02.229 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: I would love that.
00:32:02.230 --> 00:32:02.930 Clif Lewis: Cool.
00:32:03.120 --> 00:32:30.850 Clif Lewis: So the 1st breakdown. So you've got your high high level score. That's we actually use the ABC. There's actually a few pluses in there as well. You know, the the goal is to have an a plus, but it's all about putting in work, so we don't want perfection. We want to put in the work to make an organization because it's always a working project work in progress. It's a very dynamic
00:32:32.420 --> 00:32:33.980 Clif Lewis: experience. So
00:32:34.310 --> 00:32:44.980 Clif Lewis: you've got your score. So you've got an A BAC, and then that's divided up into 5 dimensions. And those 5 dimensions are work, design.
00:32:46.580 --> 00:33:00.849 Clif Lewis: organizational structure, organizational culture, fairness, and decision making. So how did I arrive at all of that? I arrived at it by reading many, many articles and books.
00:33:00.970 --> 00:33:06.769 Clif Lewis: and distilling all these various, because there's lots of different.
00:33:07.220 --> 00:33:07.900 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Approaches.
00:33:07.900 --> 00:33:21.690 Clif Lewis: Ideas and approaches on how to achieve this exactly. And so I arrived at those from from reading the literature, and so, just briefly, the assumption with the 1st one. So work, work, design is.
00:33:22.830 --> 00:33:27.670 Clif Lewis: if I can take the extreme example of like working on a supply chain.
00:33:28.220 --> 00:33:49.650 Clif Lewis: you're not being very human centric. If people literally sit and do the same little thing for 8, or God forbid! 1214 HA day. That's not very human centric. People want variety. People want meaning like we've just discussed. And it's very hard to gain meaning from that type of work design. So how do we design work.
00:33:49.910 --> 00:33:52.310 Clif Lewis: There's a lot of new
00:33:53.810 --> 00:34:04.429 Clif Lewis: approaches like things like the the skills-based organization. Instead of the job based organization where people are saying, specialists are saying.
00:34:04.850 --> 00:34:20.400 Clif Lewis: jobs are too rigid. And it's it's it's hard to get meaning from them, because it's a bunch of routineized stuff. Let's go towards a different angle. So that's that's 1 approach, then organizational design. How do people interact?
00:34:21.150 --> 00:34:37.910 Clif Lewis: The classic is the hierarchy, you know. You've got your team and then your boss, and then their boss's boss, and that's also not very conducive to human centricity. Human centricity is more enabled by things like social networks.
00:34:38.230 --> 00:34:38.670 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Hmm.
00:34:38.670 --> 00:34:47.039 Clif Lewis: Organizations that's designed around organizational networks and how it facilitates natural human engagement.
00:34:48.255 --> 00:34:51.289 Clif Lewis: What was the next one? Organizational culture? I think that's what
00:34:51.469 --> 00:35:03.350 Clif Lewis: people generally know is the the norms and the practices of the organization, and they can be very destructive, or they can empower and enable people. Fairness
00:35:03.780 --> 00:35:11.820 Clif Lewis: is all around how people people are treated, how people are included or excluded. Marginalized.
00:35:12.550 --> 00:35:27.110 Clif Lewis: Of course the argument there is a human centric organization is inclusive and fair and non-biased. And then the last one is decision making. How do we make decisions? Who is included in the decision-making process, whose voices are heard.
00:35:27.370 --> 00:35:31.230 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: So those are the 5. Those are the 5 dimensions, and then there.
00:35:31.510 --> 00:35:33.430 Clif Lewis: Broken up even more.
00:35:34.585 --> 00:35:42.840 Clif Lewis: So you can choose at which level of granularity you want to engage with. Also, maybe important to note is.
00:35:43.260 --> 00:35:54.800 Clif Lewis: it is an organizational measure. So the human score is something that tells us something about the organization as an entity and as a structure.
00:35:55.890 --> 00:35:56.650 Clif Lewis: And
00:35:57.200 --> 00:36:06.760 Clif Lewis: we collect information from the workers, from the employees to get the data to be able to say what we're saying about the organization.
00:36:07.450 --> 00:36:16.930 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yeah, that's that's great. And then you've also mentioned that this could lead to
00:36:17.482 --> 00:36:20.460 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: you know, the next step, which would be
00:36:20.650 --> 00:36:30.319 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: organizations being able to socially flag their progress. Why is that public signaling so important today?
00:36:34.760 --> 00:36:36.219 Clif Lewis: I think.
00:36:36.390 --> 00:36:41.590 Clif Lewis: Well, I don't think I think there's a lot of evidence that we're going through a revolution. People are
00:36:41.700 --> 00:36:50.819 Clif Lewis: are asking the questions like, What am I doing with my life? We're seeing more and more people being critical about the role of work
00:36:51.110 --> 00:37:03.240 Clif Lewis: in their lives. We're seeing an unprecedented number of people deciding to quit their jobs and take the plunge and become become entrepreneurs
00:37:04.128 --> 00:37:10.950 Clif Lewis: going into different career paths that they maybe previously wouldn't have done.
00:37:11.050 --> 00:37:23.310 Clif Lewis: And so if then, from a business case, perspective, if organizations want to remain competitive and they want to attract talent, and they want to retain talent again with the turnover and absenteeism
00:37:23.600 --> 00:37:29.550 Clif Lewis: they're going to have to communicate in some way that
00:37:30.340 --> 00:37:35.160 Clif Lewis: working for them is not going to be some dark sucking hole of despair.
00:37:36.340 --> 00:37:57.879 Clif Lewis: you know. So that's the one side, and then the other side is again with this movement of anti-work. I mean, anti-work is an actual field in the academic literature that I used for the human score. It's an actual thing. It's not just a headline in a newspaper. People are over it.
00:37:59.290 --> 00:38:04.050 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: How long has it been? How long has it been a thing? Is it a new thing, or historically.
00:38:04.050 --> 00:38:17.789 Clif Lewis: It's it's it's been, it's it's always, I mean. People have been unhappy. And you know this classical thing of like, oh, I hate my job. I hate my boss, but it's really it's really, in my opinion, and from what I've seen
00:38:18.750 --> 00:38:27.700 Clif Lewis: gone from just narratives to actual action, to like, I hate my job. So I'm going to quit. I'm going to go live with my parents because.
00:38:28.630 --> 00:38:44.730 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Right. And I mean, I just mean, if you knew, and I definitely do not expect you to know this off the top of your head, but I'd be curious to know when the sort of the term sort of anti-work started. Being a thing in the literature and and that kind of thing.
00:38:45.750 --> 00:38:53.730 Clif Lewis: Well, I can tell you. Authors to look for is alligher a LLIG ER
00:38:55.456 --> 00:39:00.699 Clif Lewis: it's it's fairly recent. It's not very. It's not very old.
00:39:00.700 --> 00:39:01.100 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yeah.
00:39:01.100 --> 00:39:07.379 Clif Lewis: And that transition from narrative to action is, it was triggered by the by the pandemic.
00:39:07.380 --> 00:39:07.849 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Thank you.
00:39:07.850 --> 00:39:09.140 Clif Lewis: Definitely, yeah.
00:39:10.074 --> 00:39:26.639 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: So can you tell us a story? And again, you don't need to require names. But this is sort of a you know. I hope maybe it's a happy story where, using the human score exposed something unexpected in an organization.
00:39:28.210 --> 00:39:32.240 Clif Lewis: I wish I had a really nice story for you, but I don't, because.
00:39:32.240 --> 00:39:33.320 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Oh, my God!
00:39:33.320 --> 00:39:33.820 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yes.
00:39:33.820 --> 00:39:34.240 Clif Lewis: In fact.
00:39:34.240 --> 00:39:51.849 Clif Lewis: because we, we're still. We're still building a large enough data set to be able to tell these types of stories. I don't have a sufficient. And now I'm putting on my academic. I don't have a sufficient amount of data to be able to tell that story.
00:39:51.850 --> 00:39:52.370 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Fair enough.
00:39:52.370 --> 00:39:53.780 Clif Lewis: Yet but what.
00:39:53.780 --> 00:39:54.230 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Cheers, bye.
00:39:54.230 --> 00:39:54.770 Clif Lewis: It's.
00:39:55.150 --> 00:40:01.828 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: But yeah, let's watch it. I bet within a year you'll have. You'll have a story to tell, and
00:40:02.180 --> 00:40:03.020 Clif Lewis: Hope, so.
00:40:03.020 --> 00:40:09.560 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: I can't wait. I can't wait for that. It's gonna be great. Hmm!
00:40:09.750 --> 00:40:28.930 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: So what's your big hope? What's your grand? You know? I know everyone that that makes something great. And as I shared with listeners I took the human score last night, I thought it was. You know it's just a wonderful accomplishment that really
00:40:28.930 --> 00:40:39.639 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: not only you know it gets. You know, I had this in my own in my own family recently I learned from one of my oldest sons from a conversation with him that
00:40:39.640 --> 00:41:01.839 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: you know things weren't how I thought they were right. I was like, Oh, I have a totally. I have a totally different perception of this thing that we're talking about. How interesting right? And I thought I knew his perception right. And so we and I was like, and toward the end of the conversation I was like, you know. Thank you so much for sharing, you know, for sharing this with me.
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:10.420 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: you know I I really care about this, and he's like I said, you know, it's why I asked you X and Y
00:41:10.600 --> 00:41:16.236 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: and see. And he was like, well, you need to ask better questions.
00:41:16.670 --> 00:41:18.099 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yes, I do.
00:41:18.100 --> 00:41:44.740 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: And yeah, you know, apparently I do. So as I took the humans, for you know I was really I was really struck by the kinds of you know, it almost to me in and of itself created a little culture that felt safe and caring, and you know, like it was allowing it was asking the right. It was positing the right
00:41:46.080 --> 00:41:47.840 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: kinds of
00:41:48.260 --> 00:41:58.260 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: questions and and concerns. And so what is your vision? I mean, what is your hope for this? What's the big.
00:41:58.260 --> 00:41:58.730 Clif Lewis: First.st
00:41:58.730 --> 00:42:00.770 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Thinking that you're hoping.
00:42:00.770 --> 00:42:13.059 Clif Lewis: So first, st I want to say, thank you for being so kind in sharing your experience about your about taking the survey.
00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:18.760 Clif Lewis: I suppose my hope would be for lots of organizations to use it. And
00:42:19.390 --> 00:42:26.099 Clif Lewis: it actually being a useful tool that we can use to be critical of
00:42:26.890 --> 00:42:30.730 Clif Lewis: just accepting ways of doing things. Excuse me.
00:42:31.040 --> 00:42:33.959 Clif Lewis: But actually, now that I think about it.
00:42:34.160 --> 00:42:41.730 Clif Lewis: what I really want, especially in the short term, is people to tell me why, it's
00:42:43.220 --> 00:42:59.779 Clif Lewis: why it's not doing that. And that might sound like a weird thing to say. But we've we've piloted it, and we've distributed it amongst some of our associates and our partners, and I've gotten so much good feedback
00:43:00.831 --> 00:43:08.429 Clif Lewis: of people saying, Oh, this, this doesn't work, or this thing that I don't think you're going to get the results from this thing that you're thinking.
00:43:08.630 --> 00:43:17.140 Clif Lewis: and that has empowered me to improve the tool so much so I'm hoping that
00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:38.500 Clif Lewis: a lot of friendly faces will come to me and say, Cliff, I think we can do it better this way, because I know a lot. As you can see. I know a lot, but I don't know, but I don't know everything. So so I it is my hope that people
00:43:38.670 --> 00:43:44.979 Clif Lewis: who also want to see positive change in the world will come to me and say, Love your tool. But let's make it better.
00:43:45.450 --> 00:43:46.029 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: And spends.
00:43:46.030 --> 00:43:46.689 Clif Lewis: And I hope.
00:43:48.421 --> 00:43:51.840 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: and I think it's time for another break.
00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:52.750 Clif Lewis: Break.
00:43:52.950 --> 00:43:53.440 Clif Lewis: Yeah.
00:43:53.710 --> 00:43:55.859 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Does that look right?
00:43:56.020 --> 00:44:05.139 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: I think it's time for another break. But when we come back I really I want to come back to this idea of you know what the world looks like now.
00:44:05.250 --> 00:44:23.440 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: with something like the human score just getting off the ground, and us sort of just realizing that we've got, you know, losses in epidemic proportions. We have a mental health crisis on our hands. We have people feeling overwhelmed by the meaninglessness of work.
00:44:23.500 --> 00:44:44.259 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: And so what does it look like down the line when many, many companies start using the happy score, and little by little we become more human centric. And even after these improvements that friendly faces come and suggest, what does the world look like then? So I want to give you a chance to think about that vision, for when we come back, yeah.
00:46:07.540 --> 00:46:09.460 Clif Lewis: They've got such funky music.
00:46:09.660 --> 00:46:13.200 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: I know it is. It is fun, right both.
00:46:13.200 --> 00:46:15.020 Clif Lewis: The cameras on stop dancing.
00:46:19.060 --> 00:46:25.869 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Welcome back Cliff. So yeah. So talk to me about the you know, when when
00:46:26.260 --> 00:46:30.829 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: millions of people in the world are benefiting from the human score.
00:46:31.600 --> 00:46:35.809 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: What does the world look like? What? Where, what have we gone from, what to what.
00:46:39.410 --> 00:46:41.970 Clif Lewis: I just want people to
00:46:42.740 --> 00:46:53.570 Clif Lewis: have agency over their lives again, if we can maybe take it back to one of the earlier questions you asked me. I've been so fortunate. I've had so many privileges. I
00:46:54.900 --> 00:46:55.870 Clif Lewis: I mean.
00:46:56.760 --> 00:47:02.849 Clif Lewis: I can't even imagine what it would be like not to grow up with the privileges that I that I had. And I just
00:47:03.700 --> 00:47:06.080 Clif Lewis: I think if we can change work.
00:47:06.380 --> 00:47:09.740 Clif Lewis: if we can change the organizational experience.
00:47:11.510 --> 00:47:26.270 Clif Lewis: we will be able to empower people to such an extent that we can. Now, now it starts maybe sounding a little bit. Woo, woo, but really, really, really changing
00:47:28.230 --> 00:47:33.480 Clif Lewis: people's agency over their own lives. Not just not just feeling like oh, well.
00:47:34.030 --> 00:47:54.559 Clif Lewis: I don't really have a choice. I have to get up and go to do this thing now, but actually get up and feel like you're contributing to society that you're able to create meaning. But there are so many societal structures and organizations. Aren't these little microcosms by themselves that are embedded
00:47:54.700 --> 00:47:58.219 Clif Lewis: into societal structures? And so they adopt
00:47:58.550 --> 00:48:06.669 Clif Lewis: the limitations and the all of the different various limitations of these societal structures.
00:48:06.860 --> 00:48:10.560 Clif Lewis: And so if we want to change this, we cannot do it
00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:18.360 Clif Lewis: as individuals. We have to do it as groups, as organizations, as industries.
00:48:18.540 --> 00:48:23.769 Clif Lewis: because there's a lot of money in keeping people disempowered.
00:48:24.160 --> 00:48:38.060 Clif Lewis: There's a lot of privilege and yeah, capital and gains in keeping people disempowered and oppressed.
00:48:38.580 --> 00:48:39.740 Clif Lewis: And so
00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:53.159 Clif Lewis: hopefully, the human score is one out of many tools, because I don't think me by myself or me and the happy spot are going to change the world, I mean. I'm sure we'll make a.
00:48:53.160 --> 00:48:55.840 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Let's watch that narrative.
00:48:56.510 --> 00:49:11.919 Clif Lewis: Okay, yeah, I don't want to manifest anything negative. But like we'll make a dent in it a severe dent, hopefully, but hopefully, the human score and working as as a member of various corporate doulas, we can empower
00:49:12.030 --> 00:49:17.500 Clif Lewis: groups of people to make systemic changes. That's what I want to see is systemic change.
00:49:17.500 --> 00:49:17.920 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yeah.
00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:20.110 Clif Lewis: Enduring systemic change.
00:49:20.110 --> 00:49:38.100 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yeah, lasting, enduring systemic change. I love that. And you know, I in my getting to know you for this interview, I learned that this isn't just about realigning performance for you, but it's about it's about changing
00:49:38.210 --> 00:49:47.499 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: the narrative, changing the culture story. And as you can imagine, that really resonated with me. So
00:49:48.100 --> 00:49:49.550 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: so tell me.
00:49:51.030 --> 00:49:57.669 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: You know, why is storytelling so important in corporate environments?
00:49:58.980 --> 00:50:06.359 Clif Lewis: Because that's how humans communicate. That's how humans
00:50:08.810 --> 00:50:12.310 Clif Lewis: make sense and connect with each other
00:50:12.830 --> 00:50:37.170 Clif Lewis: is through stories. I learned this amazing tool a couple of years ago that I use in some facilitation work. It's called the Way of Council. So it's an indigenous. It's an indigenous practice of storytelling as a collective, and so I forget the organization's name.
00:50:37.450 --> 00:50:40.520 Clif Lewis: Who I did. My training with.
00:50:41.070 --> 00:50:47.090 Clif Lewis: It was the gentleman's name was Leon forgot the lady's name, anyway. So
00:50:47.720 --> 00:50:56.250 Clif Lewis: learning from all indigenous old, ancient, indigenous cultures and
00:50:56.820 --> 00:51:01.430 Clif Lewis: using those tools in corporates just again
00:51:02.260 --> 00:51:09.390 Clif Lewis: showed me that there's so many different things that we've been divorced from
00:51:10.800 --> 00:51:13.419 Clif Lewis: by the way that we structure work and the way that we work.
00:51:13.950 --> 00:51:26.060 Clif Lewis: And if we use things like storytelling, and of course, now in 2025, we can use data. We can collect data from people. And we can use that data to tell stories.
00:51:26.210 --> 00:51:27.040 Clif Lewis: And
00:51:28.230 --> 00:51:34.210 Clif Lewis: there is something else that I wanted to mention. Now regarding the telling of stories, because I wanted to say that
00:51:35.140 --> 00:51:37.990 Clif Lewis: stories can also be.
00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:40.810 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Manipulated stories can I mean.
00:51:40.810 --> 00:51:44.680 Clif Lewis: Warped, and some voices can be
00:51:45.050 --> 00:51:48.389 Clif Lewis: suppressed and others can be elevated.
00:51:48.820 --> 00:51:55.200 Clif Lewis: And so we need to have some kind of tool or approach
00:51:56.410 --> 00:52:02.210 Clif Lewis: that tells the stories that help us connect, that help us maintain
00:52:03.640 --> 00:52:07.429 Clif Lewis: better mental health. I mean, you mentioned performance just now.
00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:09.599 Clif Lewis: One of the things
00:52:10.260 --> 00:52:25.680 Clif Lewis: that organizations often talk about when when they when they want to do human centric stuff, but they're not sure what to do. Psychological safety is like one of the big ones right? We want to have an organization with psychological safety.
00:52:25.970 --> 00:52:30.138 Clif Lewis: But I've worked as an executive coach and
00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:41.810 Clif Lewis: I've had. I had this one client who's so? He was an executive or just below executive. I'm not entirely sure, fairly senior chap. And
00:52:42.390 --> 00:52:50.360 Clif Lewis: one of the feedback items that he's had was he needs to create a safe space and psychological safety for his team.
00:52:51.710 --> 00:53:01.440 Clif Lewis: And so I knew this because I've been. I've I've worked with this organization with other clients as well. And I say, well, tell me about the performance culture like.
00:53:01.830 --> 00:53:06.030 Clif Lewis: are you allowed to experiment? What happens when you make mistakes?
00:53:06.700 --> 00:53:12.920 Clif Lewis: What's the learning culture and the the bottom line was, it's cutthroat like you don't.
00:53:12.920 --> 00:53:13.580 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Make mistakes.
00:53:13.580 --> 00:53:17.659 Clif Lewis: You get penalized for mistakes. We have to push performance. We have to, you know.
00:53:17.860 --> 00:53:25.749 Clif Lewis: And I said, then you can't have psychological safety, because psychological safety has certain requirements.
00:53:26.030 --> 00:53:26.610 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Right
00:53:27.340 --> 00:53:29.750 Clif Lewis: And then to bring it back to the human score.
00:53:30.670 --> 00:53:33.479 Clif Lewis: some a tool like the human score.
00:53:33.780 --> 00:53:49.869 Clif Lewis: Obviously I'm biased because it's my tool. But something like the human score is able to flag up things like this. So like, you know, why am I? Why am I having difficulty establishing something like psychological safety in my organization because you have Draconian
00:53:50.410 --> 00:53:52.630 Clif Lewis: performance management practices.
00:53:53.491 --> 00:53:55.939 Clif Lewis: Yeah, I don't know if that answers your question.
00:53:55.940 --> 00:54:21.045 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yeah, no, that's a great. It's a great point. And it's a great idea to bring out right. Is that a lot of people talk about, you know, creating a safe space, but you have to be willing to follow through and and do. Oh, my gosh, I have so many more questions I would love to ask you, but I know we only have a few minutes left. So
00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:23.389 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: I think.
00:54:27.970 --> 00:54:56.120 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: briefly, if you could tell me one, how human centricity changes when we work across cultures like you just brought in a beautiful example of, you know, bringing in indigenous, collective storytelling and that kind of thing. So just if you could in an answer, how does how does that change? And then please let us know how we can find you.
00:54:57.250 --> 00:55:01.039 Clif Lewis: Sure. I believe that
00:55:01.600 --> 00:55:15.489 Clif Lewis: half of the world's problems would be solved if we were better connected. And by connected I don't mean via social media. I mean, really connecting with people really seeing how people other people experience life.
00:55:16.210 --> 00:55:17.380 Clif Lewis: And
00:55:19.260 --> 00:55:28.620 Clif Lewis: I think that's 1 of I mean, I think that I'm a better person now than I was 20 years ago, because of the experiences and connections that I've had with other people. So
00:55:29.130 --> 00:55:30.070 Clif Lewis: I think
00:55:31.640 --> 00:55:43.880 Clif Lewis: it kind of sounds like a cliche. But like experiencing other cultures, is really life changing and world changing. So I encourage anyone who has maybe the opportunity to do that to do that.
00:55:44.100 --> 00:55:54.389 Clif Lewis: and then I believe that you'd be able to get in touch with the team from the happy spot on their website.
00:55:54.390 --> 00:55:57.610 Clif Lewis: Orange link, or at the link, to sign up.
00:55:58.190 --> 00:56:02.690 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yes, absolutely all those links are are in the description. Yes.
00:56:02.690 --> 00:56:05.449 Clif Lewis: If you specifically want to talk to me.
00:56:05.725 --> 00:56:07.100 Clif Lewis: You're welcome to do so.
00:56:07.100 --> 00:56:30.100 Clif Lewis: You're welcome to do so. I'm on all the socials. You can just go look for me on Linktree. So you go to Linktree. Forward. Slash cliff, P. Lewis, so that's Cliff, with one FP. Lewis, LEWI. S. All of my links are on Linktree, or just look for me on.
00:56:30.190 --> 00:56:39.050 Clif Lewis: not Twitter anymore, because we're not doing Twitter anymore. But Instagram Tiktok, all of the good ones. Cliff one fp. Lewis.
00:56:39.050 --> 00:56:41.980 Clif Lewis: awesome. I look forward to chatting with you.
00:56:41.980 --> 00:56:50.350 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yeah, and thank you so much for the work that you're you're doing in the world, and especially at this time, where you know.
00:56:50.460 --> 00:56:59.209 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: fairness really seems to be at stake. So I'm just so grateful to you for all that you're doing to make work more human and to help
00:56:59.320 --> 00:57:03.739 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: really everybody who's working find meaning that sustains them.
00:57:04.810 --> 00:57:05.630 Clif Lewis: Thank you.
00:57:05.630 --> 00:57:06.000 Clif Lewis: Thank you.
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:06.399 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Thank you.
00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:17.059 Clif Lewis: Thank you for giving me a platform, and for your thoughtful questions. I really appreciate it, and thank you for everyone that was listening. I look forward to continuing the conversation with all of you.
00:57:17.400 --> 00:57:27.840 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yeah. So I think we have a minute, a minute, or less than a minute, any final thoughts, any anything you want to just shout out for people to go. Do.
00:57:28.330 --> 00:57:31.759 Clif Lewis: Yeah, just follow me on social media.
00:57:33.430 --> 00:58:00.329 Clif Lewis: Go listen to my rants on Tiktok, and if they are a bit too racy for you. You can follow me on Linkedin. I scream less at my phone there, and I cite my sources on Linkedin. But if you, if you want a good chuckle about. You know the current state of employment. Go look for me on Tiktok and Instagram.
00:58:00.410 --> 00:58:06.318 Clif Lewis: I've got research coming out all the time. So if you're that way inclined.
00:58:07.190 --> 00:58:13.124 Clif Lewis: I post those as well that you can look up things like leadership, decision making
00:58:13.860 --> 00:58:16.569 Clif Lewis: human centricity, psychology, burnout.
00:58:18.280 --> 00:58:21.180 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Thank you.
00:58:21.180 --> 00:58:26.840 Clif Lewis: Thank you. Talk radio. Nyc, Clementina, really appreciate it. Happy spot guys.
00:58:27.210 --> 00:58:30.630 Clementina Esposito, Holistic Editor: Yeah, our our friends at the happy spot. Thank you.
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