Fridays 1:00pm - 2:00pm (EDT)
The audience will learn how to navigate the uncertainty of how to balance our experience with growth. Women especially find themselves feeling dismissed, looked over, and passed over, due to the true impact of gendered ageism. Our guest Nori Jabba will share how she navigated this experience and regained her confidence. She will share 1. Practical tips for regaining confidence in middle age to help you keep your seat at the table. 2. Strategies to develop a more age-inclusive organization. 3. How to combat ageism if you experience it.
As we grow older as leaders, we often to face uncertainty at work and at home as we navigate how to balance our experience with growth. Should we own our age? Do we have too much experience? Should we downplay it? Sometimes, we might find ourselves feeling dismissed, looked over, passed over, or out of sync with the younger workforce. Ageism is real, and there is a lot we can do about it. In this episode, we explore ageism, how to create a more age-inclusive culture in your organization, and how to regain your confidence if you’ve experienced the uncertainty that comes along with it.
Nori Jabba has had a career in corporate real estate and community development spanning over 30 years. When looking for employment again after years of consulting, she realized she’d lost her seat at the table when no one would hire her despite relevant experience, awards, and a master's degree. She abandoned her job search to learn more about ageism in hiring and the workplace and what she needed to change about herself. She wrote a memoir and guide to share her story and help others experiencing ageism, especially women. Through her journey, she did land the job she was looking for and launched a new path as a speaker and mentor. KEEPING YOUR SEAT AT THE TABLE is her first book.
#womenover40 #womensleadership #keepingyourseat #leadershipcoaching #leadershipconsulting #leadershipdevelopment #TheHardSkills
Tune in for this empowering conversation at TalkRadio.nyc
00:00:22.600 --> 00:00:42.149 Mira Brancu: welcome welcome to the hard skills show. And podcast with me, Dr. Mirabu, I work with leaders in healthcare research stem and other technical fields, who want to develop an authentic leadership identity and create a healthy, inclusive workplace environment to retain the best people doing their best work.
00:00:42.330 --> 00:00:59.030 Mira Brancu: in other words, developing the hard skills needed to make a greater impact. Now. this is the final episode of our facing uncertainty season before we move on to our next season, focused on developing identity.
00:00:59.180 --> 00:01:11.319 Mira Brancu: the second stage of my strategic leadership pathway model, and I cannot think of a better person to help us move from this past season to the next season.
00:01:11.410 --> 00:01:13.499 Mira Brancu: I have with me Nori Java.
00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:22.050 Mira Brancu: She's going to talk with us about how to combat ageism and regain confidence in middle age. One of the most common challenges for women especially.
00:01:22.180 --> 00:01:29.989 Mira Brancu: I think it's a perfect way to really think about how you move from navigating the uncertainty within leadership roles to
00:01:30.170 --> 00:01:38.400 Mira Brancu: and navigating a leadership due to ageism. And how do you redefine success on your own terms as a new identity emerges.
00:01:38.870 --> 00:01:52.979 Mira Brancu: Now, remember, we value evidence based practical solutions. So be ready. Take notes. I do reflect deeply, and identify at least one small step to further develop your hard skills muscles based on what Nori shares with us
00:01:53.120 --> 00:02:00.030 Mira Brancu: now Nori Java had a career in corporate real estate and community development spanning over 30 years
00:02:00.050 --> 00:02:03.739 Mira Brancu: when looking for employment again, after years of consulting.
00:02:03.830 --> 00:02:19.500 Mira Brancu: she realized she lost her seat at the table when no one would hire her, despite relevant experience awards and a Master's degree. She abandoned her job search to learn more about ageism and hiring in the workplace, and what she needed to change
00:02:20.060 --> 00:02:22.970 Mira Brancu: her book, keeping your seat at the table
00:02:22.990 --> 00:02:42.229 Mira Brancu: is a guide to her story, and how others can navigate ageism and redefine themselves, especially women who are often more affism. and she now works for a company managing housing programs and helps others on this journey. So it'll be interesting to hear how she got to that point as well welcome, Nori, we're really glad to have you.
00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:44.760 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here.
00:02:44.810 --> 00:03:00.219 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. So. I'm gonna ask the first question that people are probably wondering about which is in your zoom name. It says your name is Japanese and Lebanese. Can you share just a little bit about that background.
00:03:00.220 --> 00:03:26.469 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: So I have the most unusual name. And what's really funny is that my birth name was actually a very generic name. So my birth name was Barbara Wood, and my middle name is Noriko, which is Japanese. My parents lived in Japan, and they came back from Japan and named all of their children Japanese names, and they always called me by Noriko, and then in first grade I nobody could
00:03:26.470 --> 00:03:51.590 say it properly, so my teacher suggested changing it to Nori, and it's stuck. So it's been Nori ever since so easy to remember, because it's like sushi right? And then I married a Lebanese man, and so I now have a Lebanese last name. So I went from Barbara Wood to Nori Java. So I have these alter Ecos. That's kind of fun. But Nori job is great because there is no other Nori Java. And I'm easy to find on Linkedin.
00:03:51.650 --> 00:04:14.869 Mira Brancu: That's right. That's right. So interesting. So interesting. Okay, so tell us about your journey, your career journey, and what led you to be inspired to write this book as a result? Yeah. So, as you mentioned. I was consulting, and I had a successful consulting business, but I'd lost a big client, which is part of why I lost my seat at the table.
00:04:14.870 --> 00:04:34.539 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: and for reasons I'll get into later. But I decided I need to go back to work. I'm kind of tired of the consulting the the ups and downs on the the revenue, and no benefit. So I thought, you know, it's time to go back. I miss the camaraderie and the teamwork, and so I knew it would be hard, cause I'm over 50,
00:04:34.540 --> 00:04:58.950 but I didn't think it would be that hard, and it it was just. It did a number on my self esteem, so much so, that after repeated No, so no Responses, or coming in second again and again, I just decided to hang it up, go back to consulting and write a book about my journey. And so the uncertainty that I felt with my future writing the book and learning more
00:04:58.950 --> 00:05:09.390 was how I handled it. Yeah, it gave me a sense of control. I had to figure out what what is going on here. I need to understand this because I know I'm not alone. So I wrote a book about it.
00:05:09.580 --> 00:05:24.720 Mira Brancu: Yeah, what? What did you learn as a result of kind of digging in and exploring a lot of this I learned so much. So first I learned I have to shift my view of success
00:05:24.760 --> 00:05:39.849 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: and and what that really means, and you know we. We tend to look at our career paths as a straight arrow up, and you get your seat at the table that you're invited to and through this journey I shifted it all. I realize that success isn't
00:05:39.900 --> 00:05:51.649 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: being invited to a seat at the table. It's creating my own version of success and what I really want, and rethinking what success meant to me.
00:05:51.660 --> 00:06:04.340 And I also learned a lot along the way about ageism in the workplace, and and what we can do both as corporations, corporate leaders and people looking for jobs. Because there's a lot that we can do to manage it.
00:06:04.450 --> 00:06:17.139 Mira Brancu: Yeah, so. There's 3 ideas that you share, that I really want to dig into. Number one is, what is a seat at the table? What does that mean right? Number 2 is.
00:06:17.300 --> 00:06:40.510 Mira Brancu: how do you define or redefine success? How do people do that? And number 3 is this issue of ageism? And in women's cases, it's gendered agism, which is kind of a double whammy. Right? So let's just start with, like the basic seat at the table. What do we mean by that? Yeah. So for me, a seat at the table means feeling
00:06:41.100 --> 00:07:10.770 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: fulfilled in your life. And it's not just about work. It's about your life. So II took the table concept for work, and I expanded it. And it's a wonderful metaphor, especially for women, because, you know, the table is where we love, where we learn, where we nourish, where we care, where we make tough decisions, where we create and where we work. It's so much more than the corporate world. So why, why was I thinking of it in such a narrow way?
00:07:10.850 --> 00:07:40.070 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: So that was the first thing, and really the foundation of that is getting to your purpose in life, and what you really wanna be or do, or what kind of legacy you wanna leave. And you know there's a big difference between legacy and purpose. And through the process I realized that my purpose wasn't becoming a C-suite person, CEO, which is really what I wanted to do, and I hadn't done it yet, and I felt like time was short.
00:07:40.080 --> 00:07:49.609 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: But you know it really was about redefining. What do I want to do? Well, through the process I learned. I want to be a writer and share my story. I don't need to be a CEO,
00:07:49.950 --> 00:07:55.139 Mira Brancu: yeah, you know. And I think a lot of us get lost in
00:07:55.290 --> 00:07:57.420 Mira Brancu: titles.
00:07:57.610 --> 00:08:00.039 Mira Brancu: you know, and specific
00:08:00.130 --> 00:08:12.460 Mira Brancu: titles of roles or status, or that kind of thing, and not thinking like, does this actually connect to what I'm interested in? What I want to do? Does this like? Is this actually aiming
00:08:12.520 --> 00:08:31.180 Mira Brancu: for something that I find fulfilling is that kind of how you're thinking about seat at the table and as fulfilling yes, and so it made me really rethink. Do I need this powerful job with a whole lot of people reporting to me, and a lot of responsibility and pressure?
00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:45.489 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: Or do I want more life balance and to be able to do the things that I love. So I really zoned in on what is it I love? And the the job that I have now was a complete demotion for me.
00:08:45.490 --> 00:09:04.949 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: but it felt like the right thing to do after I'd been through this journey, and one of the beautiful things about ages. And and this job is that my boss is decades younger than I am, and I absolutely love that. I couldn't have done that. I couldn't have felt good about myself in that role.
00:09:04.950 --> 00:09:20.350 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: and if if I hadn't gone through this journey. So yeah, I rethought what was important to me, and I went for a job that I knew would really fulfill me, and I got it, and I think that is why I got it, because I knew it was a good fit.
00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:24.109 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And you know, when you go to interviews, when you show up.
00:09:24.130 --> 00:09:51.129 Mira Brancu: energize and excited about the things that truly energize you, that truly, you know, connect to your purpose. It shows right? So people also see that in you. And it's it's infectious, right? So when we come back. We're we're actually nearing an ad break. So when we come back, I wanna focus even more on like, what is success?
00:09:51.160 --> 00:10:06.060 Mira Brancu: And how do you get to that sort of like definition for yourself? So you're listening to the hard skills with me, Doctor Mira Branku and our guest, Nori Java, the new season of the hard skills is actually moving to Tuesdays
00:10:06.250 --> 00:10:29.569 Mira Brancu: at 5 pm. Eastern time. So that means in a few days I'll have another brand new show. So make sure you write that down. If you'd like to join us today online right now and ask any questions you are welcome to in real time on Linkedin. We are here, and we are happy to take your questions, otherwise we'll be back with our guest in just a moment.
00:12:17.660 --> 00:12:20.750 and you're
00:12:36.520 --> 00:12:57.079 Mira Brancu: welcome. Welcome back! We are here with Nori Joba, who is describing how you regain redefine success and have a seat at the table. And how it relates to ageism for women. So we just defined what seat at the table means, which is kind of a sense of fulfillment.
00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:05.720 Mira Brancu: And now we're kind of entering this idea of what is success anyway. And when we're thinking about
00:13:05.860 --> 00:13:07.940 Mira Brancu: moving from
00:13:08.160 --> 00:13:14.459 Mira Brancu: uncertainty to developing identity. I think there is something about that transition.
00:13:14.560 --> 00:13:27.120 Mira Brancu: And making sure that you're focusing on what does success actually mean for me? To me, wondering, how did you get to that point for yourself? And how can other people do that?
00:13:27.310 --> 00:13:34.060 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: Yeah. So really it was. It was a hard conversation with myself that you know what?
00:13:34.090 --> 00:13:38.139 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: I'm not gonna be a CEO, and it's not because I can't.
00:13:38.280 --> 00:13:42.779 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: It's because I am choosing not to do that for myself.
00:13:42.900 --> 00:14:08.349 So I was going to start a company, so I decided to write the book. But on the side I said to myself, If nobody's going to hire me, I'll start my own company more than just consulting. I wanted to start a tech company, and I went through an incubator program to help support me in that process. And it was through that wonderful program that I decided, I don't need this. This was for my ego. This wasn't for myself.
00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:23.710 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: And what I really wanna do is add value and share my story. And so my purpose became the driving force in what? How? I determined success. And the job, I mean, here's the key.
00:14:23.790 --> 00:14:34.779 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: Your your job doesn't have to be your purpose in life. Your job can be something that supports your purpose. But isn't the definition.
00:14:35.220 --> 00:14:39.949 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: And so when I made that shift, that's what did it for me.
00:14:40.570 --> 00:14:48.860 Mira Brancu: Yeah. So I heard a number of things here that that really resonate number one. It's not that we cannot be
00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:58.730 Mira Brancu: leaders in any specific position, Ceos, whatever that is. But it's important to know why you're doing that while you're interested and what
00:14:58.760 --> 00:15:03.579 Mira Brancu: what pulls at you and part of like
00:15:03.680 --> 00:15:08.239 Mira Brancu: moving to defining your own definition of success is moving from
00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:25.160 Mira Brancu: my ego to my value. Right? I realize that in my own leadership journey, when you know, I was just asking myself, is this just because of the allure of prestige
00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:29.069 Mira Brancu: that I'm seeking this? Will it actually be fulfilling
00:15:29.130 --> 00:15:34.730 Mira Brancu: or am I just seeking a title just to seek the title? Right? So
00:15:34.770 --> 00:15:37.109 Mira Brancu: Once you connect what you're actually
00:15:37.140 --> 00:15:40.890 Mira Brancu: driven by, energized by interested in.
00:15:41.010 --> 00:15:41.930 Mira Brancu: it's
00:15:42.150 --> 00:15:54.750 Mira Brancu: it actually can lead to much higher levels of success than you originally planned. Just because you have a lot more energy around it, right? Absolutely. And that's exactly what's happening to me. So I
00:15:55.050 --> 00:16:20.210 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: took this job that was multiple levels below what I was doing, you know, in the prior job I was a director. I was running a team, had 17 people under me, and I took a job as a coordinator. I did a real career pivot because I have this bucket list, which sounds absolutely ridiculous when you hear what's on it. It was that I wanted to work for a city.
00:16:20.210 --> 00:16:44.109 and you know why? Because I have a master's in urban and regional planning, and that's what planners do we go? And we work in cities, and I have never done it other than an internship. So this was my chance to get in, because you can't get into a city at a high level. You have to work your way up. Municipal experience is so important in the higher levels, and if you don't have it. It's very rare that you can jump in.
00:16:44.110 --> 00:17:01.300 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: So I jumped in at the lower level, thought, Yeah, I've got this. I can do this job in my sleep. I will love it. I know I will add value. I think my team is gonna be fantastic, and there's only one way to go, and that's up. And all of that
00:17:01.510 --> 00:17:25.589 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: came true, and all of it is already happening. And you know, just yesterday I sat there, I was doing something creating a a brochure for the community. I absolutely love doing that. And I thought, Oh, my gosh! This is what I love to do. When I was a kid when I said I was gonna do this when I'm an adult, and I just have so much fun with it. So it's really rethinking how you get your value and how you give your value.
00:17:26.210 --> 00:17:28.850 Mira Brancu: I love that and
00:17:29.010 --> 00:17:35.930 Mira Brancu: as I'm thinking about kind of where you are. It it almost sounds
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:40.110 Mira Brancu: playful and fun. It is playful and fun
00:17:40.560 --> 00:18:04.720 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: it really is, and you know, to have a job that that brings so much joy. II didn't have that in the prior job. There was so much pressure, and I was working 65 h weeks, and yes, I was very good at it. But it wasn't my passion. It was a slightly different type of work, and it wasn't my passion. And so I did a pivot, and
00:18:04.730 --> 00:18:31.139 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: really owning it. And let me be frank, I'm not 100% comfortable with it, you know. I'm still grappling every day with that non, CEO non c-suite path that I'm on. And you know I still am not ruling that completely out, because it may still happen. You never know. Right? I'm just getting started. Yeah. And you know I went through that, too. When I decided to get off of the
00:18:31.370 --> 00:18:37.410 Mira Brancu: formal leadership track and back into an individual contributor track.
00:18:37.600 --> 00:18:41.460 Mira Brancu: you know there. What I wasn't expecting
00:18:41.470 --> 00:18:44.730 Mira Brancu: was how much of my identity was wrapped up
00:18:44.750 --> 00:18:49.750 Mira Brancu: in that formal leadership, and I had to to really think through like.
00:18:49.910 --> 00:18:53.099 Mira Brancu: Did I need the formal position to be a leader?
00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:56.319 Mira Brancu: And the answer is, no, I can show up
00:18:56.500 --> 00:19:03.749 Mira Brancu: as a leader in any given space, and I can influence in any given space, and I can
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:16.230 Mira Brancu: support others who are earlier in their careers in any given space, and the only difference is the title, and perhaps you know how many people are
00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:45.250 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: formally, officially allotted to me to support my work as opposed to people that I work with collaboratively that are willing to and volunteer to work with me. Absolutely. So in my new role, I can actually get work done. It's shocking. Because when I was in a more leadership oriented role. I was in 37 h of standing meetings every week, so I had to get the work done outside of work hours.
00:19:45.250 --> 00:19:51.690 and now I can get lost in my work during the day and look up. And it's been 3 h.
00:19:51.690 --> 00:20:12.450 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: I mean. What a what a joy that is for somebody like me, where I like to get focused and I get in the Zone. I never had that opportunity, and I think that was leading to being stressed because I need that to be successful for me. And so now I have a job that allows me to do that. So if you're born a leader.
00:20:12.740 --> 00:20:19.699 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: you find yourself feeling like a leader. It comes at a very young age. I have always been a leader.
00:20:19.700 --> 00:20:44.739 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: and I'm a leader whether I'm in a leadership role or not. Just like you, you know, I'm adding value. I'm motivating others. I am holding myself accountable. And I'm making changes. I'm doing things. I'm getting stuff done. So you don't need the title. So that's really a key of the book is just to to rethink that for yourself, and the answer might be that you. You do need that leadership position
00:20:44.760 --> 00:20:56.420 Mira Brancu: for your happiness. But if you don't, great things can await, if you admit that to yourself. Right? Right? Yeah, fulfillment comes in all kinds of ways. It depends on what
00:20:56.580 --> 00:21:01.830 Mira Brancu: drives you, what you know. What pulls at you. So now.
00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:13.539 Mira Brancu: let's get back to the barrier here, which is ageism. You did a lot of soul searching. You did a lot of researching, reading up on what
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:24.189 Mira Brancu: held you back from this next step in your career? And how much agism was was at play. So can you share a little bit more about what you learned
00:21:24.210 --> 00:21:29.909 Mira Brancu: and about the barriers. And then also what you learned about sort of
00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:33.149 Mira Brancu: trying to overcome that or work through it.
00:21:33.230 --> 00:21:39.340 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: Yeah. So I interviewed a few of the people that didn't hire me
00:21:39.460 --> 00:22:05.269 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: for the book, and that was such such a wonderful door opener, because I learned so much from these people and and valued what I learned from them. But one of the things I learned is, you know, I asked Wh. Why? And II was talking about women, but this really applies to men as well. Why is it so hard for older people to get a job, what what is going on here?
00:22:05.270 --> 00:22:20.080 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: And the Hr. Person who was in her late forties? Thank goodness, you know it would have been a harder pill to swallow if she'd been in her twenties. But she told me, you know there's a perception that older people don't listen.
00:22:20.140 --> 00:22:29.559 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: and they're not willing to grow, and they're dismissive of other people, younger people and their ideas. So
00:22:29.560 --> 00:22:37.459 this listening thing I really took to heart because I really thought back about my own experience, and it was true
00:22:37.460 --> 00:23:02.359 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: I wasn't listening because I first, as a woman, I was fighting to get a seat at the table, so I was. Instead of listening to people at the table, I was looking for opportunities to jump in or lean in like Sheryl, Sandberg says, instead of really gaining value from what other people were saying. So I'd kind of shut down on the listening, and I have to share. I have to add value to be. I have to be heard.
00:23:02.510 --> 00:23:15.799 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: So I took a step back and thought, Okay, how can I? How can I balance that and really become a better listener? And that is key that is really key. The the other thing about being dismissive.
00:23:16.090 --> 00:23:21.489 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: I've done it. You know how I've done it for older workers and younger workers.
00:23:21.510 --> 00:23:31.249 And oh, that's a I would say to myself. It's a stupid idea, or they don't have enough experience to know that's not gonna work, or for an older worker.
00:23:31.760 --> 00:23:52.339 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: I would roll my eyes in my head, not in front of them, that you know. They don't know how to do something that everybody should know how to do. So I realized, I have to learn. I have to develop the skill set that the younger people have or I'm gonna be left behind. And I think that's really, really true. So listening.
00:23:52.520 --> 00:23:58.769 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: not being dismissive and being open to growth, those are the 3 things that you can do differently.
00:23:59.360 --> 00:24:03.530 Mira Brancu: That's so interesting on many levels number one.
00:24:03.570 --> 00:24:09.590 Mira Brancu: because you were partly doing it to combat the
00:24:09.710 --> 00:24:30.680 Mira Brancu: normal stereotypes and discrimination related to how people treat women. And here you are trying to combat that. And it was actually backfiring, you know, and that is just boy, how complicated is, you know sexism and and ages in terms of how much we internalize, how much we fight against and how much it backfires.
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:34.850 Mira Brancu: Extremely complicated. The other thing that it is making me think about is
00:24:35.190 --> 00:24:50.569 Mira Brancu: that it goes both ways. Agism. It goes both ways for young people and older people in that they're dismissive for the same reasons, value each other's perspectives. And behind all of that is, how do we get to
00:24:50.570 --> 00:25:06.230 Mira Brancu: a culture of respect, validation, inclusion, and appreciation for each other's. You know differences of experiences without assuming we know better, regardless of our backgrounds, or age, or genders, or whatever that is.
00:25:06.450 --> 00:25:09.659 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: Well, I want to share a little story, and
00:25:09.790 --> 00:25:17.849 Mira Brancu: my husband won't be happy when he hears this, but it's so meaningful you share that story. I am going to
00:25:17.850 --> 00:25:40.960 Mira Brancu: how to soft for a second just to get into an add break. Because I know this is gonna be a good story, and I want plenty of time to hear this. This is good. Okay? So everyone you're listening to the hard skills with me. Dr. Mira Branku and our guest, Nori Jabba the new season starts on Tuesdays at 5 pm. Eastern time, and we will be right back after this ad break in just a moment.
00:27:41.610 --> 00:27:48.200 Mira Brancu: We are back with the hard skills with our guest. Nori Java, the author, of keeping your seat at the table.
00:27:48.220 --> 00:28:07.369 Mira Brancu: and we were just digging into how ages, and goes both ways, and how it gets in the way of respecting and appreciating both younger people and older people. The only people that win, or what 40 exactly 40 years old. I don't know Nori, but you were
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:25.389 Mira Brancu: Oh, and you're on mute now. You were going to share a little bit of a story about yourself. Yeah. So my husband works in a company with a lot of younger workers. In fact, when he started there were 2 Ceos, and they were barely 30,
00:28:25.610 --> 00:28:35.239 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: and you know he was in his fiftys, and so the company has grown. There are some older workers there, but for his sixtieth birthday
00:28:35.240 --> 00:29:01.830 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: they gave him a cake, and they had a little celebration, and it had the number 80 on it, and you know everybody was digging in. And you know, joking about what an old man he is, and he played along. He played along like haha, but you know he came home, and he was not happy about that, you know. He felt humiliated, and yet this was accepted in the workplace, and
00:29:01.830 --> 00:29:29.690 that it really struck a chord with me, because it's such an example of how we don't really think about how those behaviors can impact other people. So part of combating agism is to really just be aware of it. And I came up with a system that I call react to ageism and the our stands. And it's really for corporate leaders to help develop a more age, inclusive corporate culture. But ours react
00:29:29.830 --> 00:29:54.820 or sorry. Recognize recognize it. Just step back. It. Should you be putting an 80 on a cake if the person's not 80. Let's not do that. And the second E is examine, you know, examine your organization, and identify where and how agism exists. Are you doing it with these silly little parties. Are you making a comment? That might be perceived badly.
00:29:55.400 --> 00:30:20.199 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: and then A is, adopt adopt policies and strategies to effect change, and these can be really simple. This could be setting up a training program to give older people the skills that they might be missing out on just little things that we might overlook, you know, at my prior job. My boss didn't know how to use Google drive. He was completely intimidated by it, and I just said, you know what
00:30:20.200 --> 00:30:42.879 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: I will teach you everything you need to know. It's not hard, but just creating those opportunities for learning can really really help and and also creating partnerships, mentorships, partnering younger workers with older workers to get to know each other, coach each other, train learn you? We can learn so much from younger people and older people.
00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:57.939 and then C is commit. Commit to being age inclusive, and T is train. Get some training for your people and provide those opportunities for those workers. So yeah, that story with my husband. Really?
00:30:57.940 --> 00:31:16.319 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: it. It happens everywhere, in in every company, you know, it's just we. We tend to reject older people and think they're done. And yet we celebrate older companies. Right? The older a company is, the more revered it is. But we don't celebrate the older workers and the wealth that they bring to the table.
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:22.880 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely and you know, I'm I'm working right now on a psychology today
00:31:22.890 --> 00:31:28.270 Mira Brancu: blog posts with another interview that I did with
00:31:28.360 --> 00:31:31.069 Mira Brancu: Helen, her Spencer and
00:31:31.210 --> 00:31:39.950 Mira Brancu: She talks about gendered ageism and internalize gendered ageism, and a couple of these, you know, have come up as well.
00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:42.250 Mira Brancu: you know, one that you mentioned was
00:31:42.290 --> 00:31:46.360 Mira Brancu: reverse mentoring right? Mentoring where both
00:31:46.540 --> 00:32:11.759 Mira Brancu: younger and older people benefit and you learn from each other right? There's there's a lot to be had and from the perspective of people who are more seasoned in their careers, not losing that institutional knowledge and experience and expertise and then for for younger folks to have an opportunity to learn.
00:32:11.780 --> 00:32:22.120 Mira Brancu: you know, and get access to the kind of member mentorship that is very hard to have, you know, like, I mean, what a benefit for both sides. Right? So I'm curious to learn more from you.
00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:27.480 Mira Brancu: That office party story. Definitely.
00:32:27.510 --> 00:32:45.319 Mira Brancu: I mean, how offensive right? And people don't realize that because one of the things that that Helen was was saying is, it's the one discrimination that is completely like normalized, that is accept, it's acceptable. It's not part of Dei initiatives, right? Right? And so,
00:32:47.130 --> 00:32:54.409 Mira Brancu: common things do we do that? We don't even realize we're doing that is actually quite offensive to older workers.
00:32:55.280 --> 00:33:04.270 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: Well, I think you know, the the eye roll about. New technology is is it's there, and
00:33:04.410 --> 00:33:12.319 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: just don't do it don't. I will use it as a learning opportunity to for a young person if you're if
00:33:12.320 --> 00:33:39.510 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: and I I've been guilty of it, too. You know. How can you not know Google drive? I said to my boss like, Are you kidding me? And and he felt vulnerable enough with me to share? You know I feel like an idiot. Help me. And so I did. But you know, taking those opportunities instead, where you feel that I roll moment to turn it into a learning opportunity to show what you know. And anybody who has kids
00:33:39.510 --> 00:34:05.080 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: knows that we learn from our children right? Because they were born with an ipad in their brain, and all of the technology and the the skills to use them innately. And so we rely. I rely on my kids like, Hey, how do you do this? Or they'll notice that I'm doing something in an inefficient way. And say, Mom, you just do it this way, and I love that opportunity to learn from my kids. So when I go to work.
00:34:05.080 --> 00:34:10.150 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: I look at it the same way. You know, these younger workers are tech just
00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:16.500 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: incredible tech gurus. So take the opportunity to learn from them and and
00:34:16.810 --> 00:34:38.000 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: have a corporate culture that enables vulnerability, you know, enables you to say, hey? I wanna share what I know for anybody that doesn't know how to do this, which other people might take for granted and vice versa. I wanna share what I've learned. And so really, that's the key is just recognizing and turning it into an opportunity.
00:34:38.170 --> 00:34:41.980 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. Another one that comes to mind as you're talking is
00:34:42.080 --> 00:34:57.939 Mira Brancu: our appearance, you know. We make so many, so many judgments on what? How people look in the workplace, and that is specific to age, both young and older. That's also specific to race.
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:00.059 Mira Brancu: And you know,
00:35:00.190 --> 00:35:10.359 Mira Brancu: sort of gender identity. How you know how people express themselves is part of their identity, and yet we
00:35:10.370 --> 00:35:16.850 Mira Brancu: still struggle with embracing them when it comes to ageism. The the
00:35:16.990 --> 00:35:19.430 Mira Brancu: often
00:35:19.770 --> 00:35:22.739 Mira Brancu: overlooked sort of
00:35:23.610 --> 00:35:30.580 Mira Brancu: discrimination around and stereotyping around women is, if they have gray hair
00:35:30.580 --> 00:35:57.940 Mira Brancu: they must be close to retirement, which is hilarious because I've been getting grey hair since I was 18. It's a genetic. And you know, it's just like hair, you know. So this is another one of those things, and it happens to women most more often than men. For men, they might look more distinguished. And so we're judged a little bit differently when it comes to. I love men with grey hair personally, but you know, as an experiment for writing the book.
00:35:57.980 --> 00:36:10.489 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: I stopped dying my hair right before Covid, so I was ahead of the game, so it worked out well. I wanted to see if people treated me the same, better or worse, and I was really
00:36:10.510 --> 00:36:12.629 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: shocked and empowered
00:36:12.660 --> 00:36:15.949 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: to learn that I was treated better.
00:36:16.260 --> 00:36:22.920 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: And I think there's and it it's self confidence in yourself that I'm going to own this
00:36:22.970 --> 00:36:33.919 Mira Brancu: and maybe standing up a little taller and and putting in effort in other ways. II can't quite pinpoint it, but I will tell you, and look around people
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:48.610 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: every time you see a woman that is in a successful position with gray or white hair, they are a powerhouse. they are a powerhouse, and it's because they own it, and people
00:36:48.620 --> 00:36:59.039 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: respect them. So I actually asked a woman with gray hair that is just beautiful, you know the stripes, and just looked really stunning. And
00:36:59.140 --> 00:37:24.069 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: why? Why do you not color your hair? And she said, I want people to take me seriously. I want to them to know that I have the experience. So I didn't want to color my hair. And I thought that was really interesting, because it's the opposite of what most women think. And so I let my hair go, and I get compliments on it. You know. I I've got silver highlights, I like to say, but a woman in my office is letting her hair grow.
00:37:24.070 --> 00:37:35.450 and everybody but everybody's in her family's giving her a hard time and telling her she looks awful, and I gave her a copy of my book and said, Read this chapter, and please, I stand behind you. Just
00:37:35.450 --> 00:37:59.129 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: do what you want to do for yourself, and if you want to color your hair. Great do it! But if you think it's might be holding you back, or you're sick of spending the money, then own it. And so that's what I decided to do, plus. I didn't know how gray I was, and I thought it would be interesting to see it wasn't as gray as I thought, I love this this is so inspiring in many ways, because
00:37:59.130 --> 00:38:12.870 Mira Brancu: well, on a personal level. I have tried several times to let the gray just happen, and I get like halfway through, and I just freak out but you know II don't think I've ever heard anybody
00:38:13.220 --> 00:38:14.740 Mira Brancu: say
00:38:14.920 --> 00:38:28.489 Mira Brancu: it was empowering, and I grew confident, more confident. And and people, you know, saw me, and I saw others as having kind of a a greater you know, kind of
00:38:29.020 --> 00:38:30.930 Mira Brancu: weight to their
00:38:30.940 --> 00:39:00.859 Mira Brancu: leadership enroll and influence. So maybe I'll try it again. I am moving closer and closer into this. This is why, for some of you who who have known me for a while, that's why it's blond. It's getting closer into the gray. Okay, let's before the next Adric. I really love to hear the 8 steps that you walk people through your book. Yes.
00:39:01.020 --> 00:39:17.140 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: so I'll go through them quickly, and I love words. I was an English major, and I had a lot of fun with the table concept. So it's all based on the table. So the first one is flipping the table, and that's finding your purpose
00:39:17.330 --> 00:39:24.809 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: and understanding the difference between purpose and legacy, and that your purpose doesn't have to equal your job.
00:39:25.090 --> 00:39:42.940 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: 2 is clearing the table, and that's really about letting go of everything that's holding you back and identifying what's holding you back. 3 is reinforcing the table and building strength and body, mind and spirit, and especially for me. It was physical.
00:39:42.940 --> 00:39:56.349 You know. I never felt like an athlete as a kid. I was last picked for sports, and was really getting in touch with that stronger side of myself and building strength. Because if you are strong you feel strong.
00:39:56.890 --> 00:40:04.660 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: The next is sitting at the head of the table and feeling empowered and taking your place with confidence
00:40:04.820 --> 00:40:14.670 and step 5 is not tabling yourself, and if you live in England it's different. It's table yourself straight away. They're opposite meanings.
00:40:14.670 --> 00:40:37.110 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: but it's it's about staying relevant and staying on top of things and being open to growth and change, and letting yourself learn a whole lot more, not being left behind. Step 6 is not getting pulled under the table, and this is really about facing your fears and the future. And for me. This is why I lost my seat at the table
00:40:37.130 --> 00:40:59.939 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: because my family life it was a volcano ready to erupt. I had an older parent, and she was out of state, and I needed to drop everything to help her through her next chapter, and because of it I lost my client because I couldn't be there for them, and it's just the way it was. But I didn't plan for it, and we tend to kind of
00:41:00.130 --> 00:41:08.569 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: put our head down in the sand. And so it's all about really grabbing hold of everything that gives you anxiety and facing it.
00:41:08.910 --> 00:41:24.100 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: and the next one is leveraging what you bring to the table. And that's about owning yourself, your identity, your experience, and not hiding who you are, how much experience you've had. I no longer put on my resume.
00:41:24.100 --> 00:41:39.600 You know that I sorry I no longer take off the year that I went to college, or how many experience years of experience I have. It's about owning it, and really just feeling empowered by it. And the last step step 8 is leaning on the table strategically, and that is
00:41:39.600 --> 00:41:52.790 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: filling your table. All 8 seats, and your table can be bigger than that. But filling it with those partners in your life, your mentors, your coaches, people that empower you and support you and challenge you
00:41:53.770 --> 00:42:11.319 Mira Brancu: love this. It feels empowering, just listening to it. We will be right back after this ad break to learn a little bit more about a few of these stages, so hang tight, and we'll be back with Nori Java on the hard skills.
00:44:13.860 --> 00:44:20.360 Mira Brancu: Welcome back with the hard skills with Nori Joba keeping your seat at the table. Author.
00:44:20.730 --> 00:44:25.620 Mira Brancu: She just got through sharing the 8 steps
00:44:25.670 --> 00:44:38.430 Mira Brancu: that she helps people through to keep your seat at the table and there's one that I was really curious about. which is towards the end you mentioned
00:44:38.630 --> 00:44:39.820 Mira Brancu: staying relevant.
00:44:40.030 --> 00:44:44.039 Mira Brancu: How do you stay relevant and open to growth and change.
00:44:44.140 --> 00:44:47.390 Mira Brancu: What? What are some things that we should be thinking about?
00:44:48.670 --> 00:44:50.760 Mira Brancu: Oh, and you're on mute. Sorry about that.
00:44:51.220 --> 00:45:09.019 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: So I love this chapter because I have always been a lifelong learner. I had a father who just encouraged us to learn as much about the world as possible. So it's really it's about creating a bucket list, a learning bucket list and
00:45:09.080 --> 00:45:25.749 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: getting to it. It's about, I call it date night where you go to bed early like 80'clock, and you have a stack of books and magazines and things you want to read and learn. It's not about scrolling on social media. But taking that time to learn from others.
00:45:25.750 --> 00:45:36.560 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: And it's also about signing up for learning opportunities and really identifying what you're missing. And there are organizations that can help you do this.
00:45:36.560 --> 00:46:01.559 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: you know, like Nova works here in the San Francisco Bay Area. But every metropolitan area has them, and they will give you. They're these job skills, training centers. And they'll help you with assessments of what you're missing and give you opportunities to learn these skills. You can go on. Linkedin. Learning has just an amazing portfolio of classes, and there are so many websites, and I live.
00:46:01.560 --> 00:46:27.580 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: List a lot of them in the book. But it's really endless. And so it's really making that commitment to get those skills that you need. And instead of saying, I can't do that in that job, or I'm too old to learn that. I that is my motto. Never say that. Never be that person who says, Oh, I'm too old for that, I'll get a young person to do it. No, no, no! Get a young person to show you how to do it.
00:46:27.580 --> 00:47:04.729 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: So the other thing that's really important. To staying relevant is knowing your fit. And I created this thing called the fit model. And it's really to identify what is the right fit for you. So when you're in a job, knowing that you're a good fit means that you're gonna be relevant for that position. So if you want to get a job, or you're in interviews, and it's not going well. Ask talk about fit, and how you're a good fit, because when when people hire the number. One thing they're looking for beyond qualifications. And you know, whatever the
00:47:05.220 --> 00:47:20.650 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: experience number of years they want, or whatever is fit. Is this person going to be a good fit, and it's also the number one thing that they say when you are rejected we pick somebody that was a better fit. So figure out what your fit is, and that's how you stay relevant.
00:47:21.050 --> 00:47:23.380 Mira Brancu: That's great. And the you know
00:47:23.490 --> 00:47:26.870 Mira Brancu: I also feel like this stage
00:47:27.100 --> 00:47:28.190 Mira Brancu: is
00:47:28.850 --> 00:47:33.790 Mira Brancu: really connected for me at least, is really connected to one of your
00:47:34.040 --> 00:47:46.000 Mira Brancu: final stages around. And these are my kind of my words. But developing a strategic network. For yourself. I like to surround myself with people who inspire me
00:47:46.050 --> 00:48:03.729 Mira Brancu: and in that way I kind of learn what they're doing that I'm not doing that. I'm sort of like getting behind or missing out on. Or should I know this? Or there are things that people are doing that I'm not doing. It could be like, you know, financial investment, or it could be.
00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:28.790 Mira Brancu: How do you take care of your you know, aging parents, or it could be. How do you take care of your you know, growing children, or it could be you know something related to how I negotiated for a higher salary. Lots of things that I don't know on my own might not get from my organization. But if I surround myself with really you know, inspiring people that are successful in their own right.
00:48:28.790 --> 00:48:54.209 Mira Brancu: I can stay relevant through them. Alright. Is that kind of another way to think about it. That's exactly how to think about it. And it's it's identifying those people in your life that will help you through that. I mean, so many of us feel so alone, especially if you're job hunting you just feel like you're alone. Nobody will hire you, but also in your careers. You might feel alone. You're stagnant.
00:48:54.420 --> 00:49:02.949 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: Stop that. You have a table. My table that I use for the book is 8 seats, one for each chapter. You're at the head.
00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:21.289 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: and so fill out your table, one for each chapter in the book. At least. You know one person that you identify, that can you can learn from that will challenge you. These aren't just people that will stroke your shoulder and say, Good job. It's people that will will force you to grow.
00:49:21.380 --> 00:49:53.039 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: And so I also have a hero list, you know, who are my heroes, and I like to have people at the table that I can reach out to, but I also have my heroes at the table. So you know Richard Branson is one of my heroes. I've learned so much from that man, and whenever I'm feeling like this is just too hard. I can't do this. I think of Richard because he just he's intrepid. Nothing stops him. So, having that hero list and those people to really inspire you is so critical.
00:49:53.520 --> 00:49:55.050 Mira Brancu: Love it love it.
00:49:55.130 --> 00:50:05.189 Mira Brancu: So I, for those of you who are watching live, or later, the recording, I'm gonna share a little bit about
00:50:05.290 --> 00:50:22.799 Mira Brancu: per website, keeping your seat.com, keeping your seatcom. Yeah, that was available, believe it or not. Yes, which is amazing, very exciting, and so tell us a little bit about what they might find if they go to this website.
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:48.819 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: So I, you can buy a mug from me. It says, who's at your table? And this is really kind of a key phrase for filling out your table and those strategic relationships. And it's a reminder. So I have people in the office that have these mugs who's at your table. And so if you want a mug reach out to me and I'll tell you how to get one. And you can also submit your story for the next book. So
00:50:48.820 --> 00:51:13.920 Nori Jabba - she/her - Name is Japanese & Lebanese: I wanna write a second book, which is about your stories, not mine, because so many people are going through this. And this is just my journey, and II love hearing about how other people view the table, and how they feel like they got their seat back, or how they keep it. And then you can also watch me on a variety of podcasts and videos and their links to that.
00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:29.650 And, of course, how to buy the book, which is also an audio. You know I'm a I'm a reader, but who has time to read? I don't. So I walk and read at the same time. I listen to audio books, and I love books that are narrated by the author. So I narrated it.
00:51:29.860 --> 00:51:49.620 Mira Brancu: which was hard. Yes, so lots of goodies. Lots of opportunities to work with Nori. So as we're closing out, I wanna ask the audience, what is one thing that you have taken away from all of the goodies that Nori has already shared with us.
00:51:49.790 --> 00:51:52.919 Mira Brancu: And what is one small change
00:51:53.040 --> 00:51:59.330 Mira Brancu: that you can implement either as an individual or an organization in terms of policy change
00:51:59.500 --> 00:52:13.140 Mira Brancu: based on what Nori shared with us about age, inclusivity, share it with us on Linkedin, at Mirabranku or Nori Java, or at talk radio, Nyc, so we could cheer you on.
00:52:13.290 --> 00:52:32.130 Mira Brancu: We're on Facebook, Instagram Twitter twitch all over the place. But Linkedin is where I live. So I would love to see your comments there. In addition to being a live show, we're also on itunes and spotify. Please go subscribe to the podcast leave a review share with others to increase our visibility, reach and impact.
00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:42.689 Mira Brancu: and you can join us at our new time on Tuesday, October 20, fourth, at 5 Pm, Eastern, when we're gonna kick off our new season focus on developing identity with Ena yeoman
00:52:42.780 --> 00:52:51.210 Mira Brancu: when she'll talk about the beginning stages of exploring your identity. Why it's so important to know yourself well from a leadership and mental health perspective.
00:52:52.360 --> 00:53:06.929 Mira Brancu: Thank you to talk radio to Nyc for hosting. I'm Dr. Mirabanka, your host for the hard skills show. Thank you for joining us today, Norrie, and thank you. Great rest of your day wherever you're tuning in from. Thank you, Nori. Thank you so much.