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EPISODE SUMMARY:
Feeling the nebulous uncertainty of addressing bad workplace behavior? Join us as our guest, Dr. Rob Fazio provides a roadmap to protecting yourself and others from dysfunctional dominance at work!
There are often two ends of the relational spectrum when it comes to leadership styles. On one end of the extreme are those who err too far into being supportive / passive / non-confrontational and as a result have difficulty addressing problematic workplace behaviors, such as narcissistic bullies. On the other end of the spectrum are those very bullies who steamroll over everyone. How do you separate the good alphas from the bullies? Dr. Rob Fazio has studied the art of managing bullies and will share with us several frameworks and tips for navigating what is considered one of the most challenging people-issues that most leaders deal with.
Dr. Fazio is a counseling and consulting psychologist and Wall Street Journal Best Selling author of "BullyProof, a roadmap to protecting yourself and others from dysfunctional dominance.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/robfazio/ , https://onpointadvising.com/
#leadershipdevelopment #leadershipcoaching #leadingthroughuncertainty #TheHardSkills
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On this episode of The Hard Skills, Dr. Mira Brancu is joined by counseling and consulting psychologist, Dr. Rab Fazio, and they discuss how to address poor workplace behavior and how to confront workplace “bullies” when you are uncertain in the situation. To start the conversation, Dr. Fazio shares his story and how he got interested in this particular topic, which eventually led him to write a Wall Street Journal best-selling book, “BullyProof.” Soon, both Dr. Brancu and Dr. Fazio discuss more of the psychological part of the receiving end of a bully. When someone is using their power to make someone else feel small or not as important, this could lead to someone not trying as hard as usual in their performance, which could eventually lead to a mental health condition like depression or anxiety. However, it can start a vicious cycle in the workplace. When one person with power puts another one down, the person on the receiving end gets promoted or becomes a leader, they can display those same behaviors from their previous boss because that is how they believe they need to get ahead in their career. So it is important to break that cycle in order to be in a healthier workplace.
After the first break, Dr. Fazio explains the definition of bullying, specifically in the workplace, and knowing the difference when someone is bullying an individual. Dr. Fazio’s work primarily focuses on studying the behavior of bullies and not demonizing someone as a bully. There are many cases where people do not realize that they are bullying others and so he devotes his work to understanding from the bully’s perspective and how others can act around those bullies. Both Dr. Brancu and Dr. Fazio do a deep dive into characteristics of bullies like being dismissive, belittling, and assaulting for example. They also discuss how to approach, address, and act around the workplace bullies.
As the conversation continues, Dr. Brancu and Dr. Fazio talk about looking inward into the root of the problem of bullies and certain workplace behaviors. The tone and influence of workers is based on how the boss or leaders act around others and the workers base their performance and attitudes on what they see, hear, and receive. It is important to realize that sometimes people do not know what they might be causing or there is already a negative atmosphere until someone says something about it. They also discuss particular motivators for bullies as to why they act the way they do and how the workplace needs more alpha women leaders/the power women can have.
To close the episode, Dr. Fazio shares the meaning and the different types of subtle strength. The idea of subtle strength is someone utilizing a power to influence another person. An example would be that two of the four types are submissive and dominant. If someone is dominant, they will win in any argument and if someone is submissive, others will walk all over you. Before closing the show, Dr. Fazio has a non-profit organization, On Point Advising, and so he takes some time to explain the story behind it and what the organization does as a whole. If anyone was to take anything from this episode, Dr. Fazio shares that he wishes for people to encourgae and elevate others instead of bringing them down.
00:00:45.890 --> 00:00:50.719 Mira Brancu: welcome! Welcome to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branku.
00:00:50.740 --> 00:01:04.400 Mira Brancu: I work with leaders in healthcare research stem and other technical fields, who want to develop an authentic leadership identity and create a healthy, inclusive workplace environment to retain the best people doing the best work.
00:01:04.670 --> 00:01:10.010 Mira Brancu: And that means developing the hard skills needed to make a greater impact.
00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:22.649 Mira Brancu: Now, this season we are exploring the first stage of my strategic leadership pathway model facing uncertainty. And today we are talking with Rob Fazio
00:01:22.780 --> 00:01:30.059 Mira Brancu: about how to use subtle strength and motivational capital to navigate nebulous organizational politics.
00:01:30.190 --> 00:01:47.200 Mira Brancu: One of the things I know is that navigating the stress of bad behavior, especially bullies in the workplace, is probably one of the most stressful experiences and the thing that we often guest asked to help most with with leaders right now
00:01:47.350 --> 00:01:55.909 Mira Brancu: we value evidence-based practical solutions. I don't want you watching this or listening to this passively.
00:01:55.960 --> 00:02:02.060 Mira Brancu: I want you to reflect deeply on what we talk about. I want you to take notes. I do.
00:02:02.190 --> 00:02:07.710 Mira Brancu: and identify at least one small step to further develop your hard skills muscle.
00:02:08.310 --> 00:02:22.809 Mira Brancu: So let me introduce Rob Fazio. He is a leadership advisor and author of the Wall Street Journal. Best-selling book, bully proof, using subtle strength to influence Alpha's and strengthen society. It is a good book.
00:02:22.980 --> 00:02:29.350 Mira Brancu: He advises elite performers, including surgeons, c-suite executives, lawyers and wealth managers.
00:02:29.540 --> 00:02:39.620 Mira Brancu: His advice on navigating turbulent times and politics has been featured in the New York Times and on Cnn. Fox News Channel, Msnbc. And other local note networks.
00:02:39.740 --> 00:02:46.460 Mira Brancu: He's also the founder and president of a September eleventh, inspired nonprofit. Hold the door for others.
00:02:46.590 --> 00:02:56.930 Mira Brancu: and the mission is to empower people to grow through loss and adversity and achieve their dreams. He and I also know each other from being members of the Society of Consulting Psychology.
00:02:57.070 --> 00:03:05.169 Mira Brancu: So welcome, Rob. Glad to have you on board here. It's great to see you. I'm delighted to have this conversation
00:03:05.450 --> 00:03:08.640 Mira Brancu: absolutely absolutely. Okay. So tell me.
00:03:08.990 --> 00:03:12.150 Mira Brancu: first question, the most obvious on my mind is
00:03:12.430 --> 00:03:17.270 Mira Brancu: why bullying, how did you get interested in bullying? Why did you decide to write an entire book about it?
00:03:17.460 --> 00:03:40.899 Rob Fazio: Yeah. You know it's funny as psychologists. People always ask like, what was your path? How did you get there? And you know, we pride ourselves on self awareness. However, I wasn't as aware until I got through the book and started doing podcasts and media spots on really what my my path was. And upon reflection, I realized a lot of it stem from
00:03:41.040 --> 00:03:49.989 Rob Fazio: my dad being executive in in New York City and working for a very dysfunctional dominant Cfo
00:03:49.990 --> 00:04:13.429 Rob Fazio: and at the end of the day he had a long commute. I could see him very stressed. He'd be quiet. He never complained about it, but my mom, being a nice ceiling from Northern New Jersey, always did complain about it. But as a kid I saw that now I had a I had a great childhood, but I saw the impact of my dad's boss and work on him over over 20 or th 25 years.
00:04:13.810 --> 00:04:25.089 Rob Fazio: and I kept thinking it shouldn't be this way right? There should be a way for people to work and make money and be family people, and not have to suffer at work.
00:04:25.090 --> 00:04:49.370 Rob Fazio: and I think that was the catalyst for me, wanting to work with business people and leaders, and even and even athletes and and then, as I started doing the work, not by my design, I developed a niche of working with these strong personalities, helping to turn them around and also helping people that are on the receiving end to protect themselves and others.
00:04:50.180 --> 00:05:03.320 Mira Brancu: Yeah, you know what? I actually remember my my mom going through the same thing. One of her bosses were was just awful. She'd come on with these stories, and I'd be like this is the worst.
00:05:03.370 --> 00:05:15.419 Mira Brancu: you know, and it really affects. So you don't even think about this, but it doesn't just affect you alone. It affects your family because the family is upset for you when you're going through this right?
00:05:15.620 --> 00:05:31.950 Rob Fazio: A, absolutely. And that's you know. II guess that's kind of the little secret here. I mean a lot of us that do this work. We're really making the world our therapy room, right? So we wanna work with the leaders and build our business. But but really kind of a side door of all this is.
00:05:31.950 --> 00:05:49.619 Rob Fazio: we wanna create well, better? Well, being at home, it's a big cycle. And just like we talk about organizational climate, or how a leader walks into a room, how? That's contagious! Well, when people leave work. And now it's a little bit different when they leave their office or kitchen table and shut off the laptop.
00:05:50.410 --> 00:06:06.729 Rob Fazio: They're bringing a lot of what they've experienced. And I just seen so many people suffer physically, psychologically, financially. And that does have an impact on your parenting and being a partner. And quite frankly, it's it's really sad to see people suffer through that.
00:06:07.270 --> 00:06:19.809 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah. And you really don't think about that piece as like a wellness piece that affects your entire life, not just work. World, right? So why
00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:28.890 Mira Brancu: is it so challenging for so many people to to be around bullying behavior like? Why, why can't we just be like
00:06:29.130 --> 00:06:38.650 Mira Brancu: Who cares whatever that's that's a bully that's not gonna affect me. I'm just gonna keep going on with my life, you know. Why is this so challenging for all of us.
00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:42.430 Rob Fazio: I think that there are.
00:06:42.640 --> 00:07:10.670 Rob Fazio: I think there are some people that are just built that way. Or leave the situation because they can and are able to. I think the large majority of us, whatever anyone says really get impacted by dysfunctional bullying behavior. And I think it's so difficult is because it hurts right? It's an emotional wound. Why would someone treat me that way? Especially if I'm working, and there should be some sort of a psychological contract
00:07:10.670 --> 00:07:24.530 Rob Fazio: to work right. I treat you well. I do work, therefore you treat me well. You pay me, and all all should be good. But unfortunately, not all human beings are wired that way. And
00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:33.299 Rob Fazio: II think because another damaging part is historically these types of behaviors being overly directed or
00:07:33.450 --> 00:07:56.210 Rob Fazio: getting ahead by putting someone else down, because you're the best salesperson, or whatever has been reinforced. And so then people start to feel powerless, the more powerless they feel the more space they could be filled by a bully, and then just creates a more, even more and more vicious cycle. And it's it'd be can become defeating.
00:07:57.180 --> 00:07:59.560 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Now, that's an interesting
00:07:59.880 --> 00:08:03.550 Mira Brancu: dynamic. If you think about
00:08:04.100 --> 00:08:11.000 Mira Brancu: what could powerlessness lead to? Right for some of us?
00:08:11.230 --> 00:08:36.060 Mira Brancu: we feel beaten down, and then we don't try as hard right, and that our performance, you know, is affected, and our mood is affected, and we might even, you know, end up ending up, having a mental health condition as a result, depression or anxiety, or even Ptsd, right? This could be traumatizing for some people depending on the the severity for others.
00:08:36.390 --> 00:08:38.389 Mira Brancu: You know
00:08:38.539 --> 00:08:54.680 Mira Brancu: my guess is, there's there's some people that use that powerlessness to gain power over others, and they might end up becoming the bully. And I'm sort of just curious like, is it ever possible that we might be the bullies that we don't want in our own lives
00:08:56.050 --> 00:09:02.629 Rob Fazio: absolutely. So. There's so much wisdom in what you just said. Couple of things come to mind. One
00:09:02.900 --> 00:09:15.479 Rob Fazio: there does become a vicious cycle. So someone who's on the receiving end of being bullied is more likely to demonstrate those behaviors if they go in to power.
00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:32.979 Rob Fazio: There's something about that that where they've seen another person do that, or they go in one of 2 ways. They'll say they'll never treat someone that way, or they feel that's the way to treat people in order to get ahead, and as they get more positional power they do more mistreating
00:09:32.980 --> 00:09:51.309 Rob Fazio: of others which creates that cycle. And so that's why it's so important to break that cycle. You know. one of the ways I start off talking about bullying is is, is talking about the Unier and how he was a student at Harvard. And there were these psychological
00:09:51.620 --> 00:10:17.019 Rob Fazio: tests back then, on tormenting, torturing students to see how they react. So he became disenfranchised and hated the scholars and hated Academia. That's an extreme example. But the same thing happens in the workplace right? If someone is treated a certain way at a younger age, and that's never processed, or they don't have what we call corrective emotional experience. Right? No one.
00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:28.440 Rob Fazio: Not many people wanna help the bully, and and it creates them creates this system where they're isolated, and the only thing I have left to do is continue to behave in that manner.
00:10:29.280 --> 00:10:33.140 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and not to get into
00:10:33.620 --> 00:10:44.010 Mira Brancu: politics. But there's a long, long history in the world of the, you know some oppressed people becoming oppressors themselves to gain power. And it's a really
00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:51.739 Mira Brancu: really complicated issue. In in in in those kind of situations. Right
00:10:51.780 --> 00:11:07.730 Rob Fazio: it it is. And you know I mean let's be honest. We really can't avoid politics as much as a taboo to talk about and stuff my, my view is it doesn't matter what side you're on. You have to be aware of how we're bullied
00:11:07.810 --> 00:11:32.729 Rob Fazio: by politicians. Right? We know a lot more about neuroscience and how we let ourselves get triggered and they become more biased and double down. That's why we're so divided right now. So I see that happening. Also. You know, politicians are going to min mit this, but that's how they get ahead, because they shut down conversations. They push us around and then we fall into conversation
00:11:32.730 --> 00:11:38.750 of an avoid or attack situation which shuts down dialogues and conversations.
00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:56.489 Mira Brancu: You hit the nail on the head and it's actually the reason that I ended up deciding to read your book is, I just kept thinking about this bullying behavior that I saw in politics, and wondered like, what is this about, and how do we manage now.
00:11:56.490 --> 00:12:16.189 Mira Brancu: when I feel like I'm seeing more bullying behavior that you know more than ever before with people in power. And that's actually what led me to want to read. Your book is like some insights. So we're we're I'm gonna put a pause there, and we're reaching up on a a break. So
00:12:16.270 --> 00:12:43.100 Mira Brancu: just as a reminder, everybody, you're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mirabranku and our guest, Rob Fasio. The hard skills airs live every Friday at one Pm. Eastern time. If you would like to join us online and ask questions right now. In real time, please do. We will answer them on air. And you can find this on Linkedin or Youtube at talk radio, Nyc. And we'll be back with our guest in just a moment.
00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:55.200 Mira Brancu: welcome welcome back to the hard skills with me. Dr. Maya Branku and Dr. Rob Fazio. Now.
00:14:55.350 --> 00:15:03.279 Mira Brancu: We we've been talking about bullying, and we haven't defined it yet, so I figured. Let's get into what
00:15:03.300 --> 00:15:10.450 Mira Brancu: does bullying look like? What? How do you know it's happening? But how do you know it's different than
00:15:10.510 --> 00:15:12.040 Mira Brancu: just like
00:15:12.170 --> 00:15:19.440 Mira Brancu: really high confidence, you know, or really driven behavior or really ambitious behavior. What's the difference?
00:15:20.050 --> 00:15:41.089 Rob Fazio: So it it's it gets a little bit complicated because it's it is very subjective. So someone could treat you a certain way, and I feel bullied. But you don't, and that's why so much is important around your own ownership, and and knowing the difference and being able to protect yourself. So
00:15:41.230 --> 00:15:50.669 Rob Fazio: let me look here about something. I don't think that anyone should suffer at work, and I don't think anyone should be bullied. I do think sometimes we use the word bully
00:15:50.730 --> 00:16:14.650 Rob Fazio: to sparingly, and then once we use the word bully, it almost gives more power away, and we go into more of a victim mindset. So the way I define bullying is, it is yeah, or or a bully. It's someone who consistently tries to win in situations regardless of the costs or consequences. So they're very self focused.
00:16:14.750 --> 00:16:43.489 Rob Fazio: It's their own agenda. And they really aren't concerned about other people so good differentiator. But not the only one is to think about intention and impact. Right is this person's intention only for them to win and is the impact they're having on them that they're demeaning someone or they're hurting someone. There are also a lot of legal definitions around bullying. But I leave that to the politicians and the lawyers, and all that
00:16:43.820 --> 00:17:11.740 Rob Fazio: and that the the other thing to realize is that there are also, alphas! In this world that are extremely important for business and life, and home life. And these are people that will take the lead in situations. Whether or not they're the subject matter expert or the identified leader, and that doesn't make them bad people, or or have poor character. And I think that an alpha that is aware and adaptive
00:17:11.819 --> 00:17:39.169 Rob Fazio: their gold. And they're really important. And we want to create alliances with those type of people. But it's the people that I've seen over the time have either suffered from insecurities or often times they do have a tinge or have narcissism. Where it's these patterns of very me focused. And and they do these things. I will say that in our research, in our work.
00:17:39.450 --> 00:17:53.150 Rob Fazio: a a large amount of people don't even realizing that they're engaging and bullying behavior. So what I focus on is the actual behavior and not demonizing a person as being a bully.
00:17:53.200 --> 00:18:11.389 Rob Fazio: Sometimes it does get to the extreme right. There's a character issue. But the reason I say that is Mir. You and I engage in bullying behavior. But it's a matter of how consistent or intense, that is, and if we come aware of it, do we try to stop it or shift?
00:18:11.750 --> 00:18:24.499 Rob Fazio: And so in the book there's a there's a chapter 7 which is called Wait in my Bully, which is my favorite, because people will come to me. The surgeons are are classic love, my surgeons, but they'll be like.
00:18:24.550 --> 00:18:43.349 Rob Fazio: Oh, Rob, I'm so glad you wrote this book. You know my supervisor, the chief of surgery definitely needs to read this, and, like Joe, reach Chapter 7 before you do that right. Check yourself like, take a look at yourself, and that's some of the most rewarding work right. If you catch people in the act of being themselves?
00:18:43.820 --> 00:18:46.010 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:46.320 --> 00:18:51.819 Mira Brancu: okay. I have a million questions here. First. You mentioned Alpha.
00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:55.559 Mira Brancu: and you separated it out from
00:18:56.020 --> 00:19:06.599 Mira Brancu: in in how I think about it. There's like good office and bad office, the bad office with the bullying behavior and the good office, who like you say, like, become aware of the behavior, and then
00:19:06.630 --> 00:19:09.760 Mira Brancu: adapt is that kind of how you're thinking about it?
00:19:09.870 --> 00:19:28.450 Rob Fazio: Yes. So what? What I wanted to do is to have someone of a roadmap for people and any good. Some consultant loves their 2 by twos. Right? So if you think of of 2 dimensions, awareness and adaptability. So someone who is unaware and non adaptive Alpha.
00:19:28.800 --> 00:19:57.849 Rob Fazio: they are the ones that typically are thought of as bullies because they don't know their consequences. They're not aware and then, moving up to are aware, adapted. Alphas! They're the ones that are say their best because they know they're take charge of people, and they may intentionally be provocative or something, but they're gonna be. They're gonna be aware of what they're doing. And they're also gonna be aware of their impact and others, and also how to make those shifts. So what I try to do is
00:19:57.850 --> 00:20:08.240 Rob Fazio: give those 4 quadrants or those 4 types of alphas. So then you could determine which type of what I call strength, style, or communication style you use to influence.
00:20:08.330 --> 00:20:11.050 Mira Brancu: Hmm, So
00:20:11.380 --> 00:20:28.280 Mira Brancu: now let's take some real specific behaviors. And I started like writing down like the kind of bull the kind of behaviors I feel are bullying. And I actually pulled this out from my own Millennials. Guide to Workplace Politics book.
00:20:28.290 --> 00:20:33.150 Mira Brancu: So some of it is being dismissive of other people.
00:20:33.210 --> 00:20:38.610 Mira Brancu: Being invalidating belittling and insulting
00:20:38.780 --> 00:20:40.840 Mira Brancu: right?
00:20:41.030 --> 00:20:50.180 Mira Brancu: if you what does it look like when you have an aware, adaptive Alpha, who is doing this versus an unaware
00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:51.520 Mira Brancu: non adaptive.
00:20:51.660 --> 00:21:01.090 Rob Fazio: Yeah. So I think the aware adaptive Alpha isn't going to do all of those things, and if they do.
00:21:01.120 --> 00:21:12.579 Rob Fazio: someone is gonna feel comfortable enough to give them a heads up to say, Hey, look! This went off. Would you mind having a conversation? They're willing to do the repair. They're willing to look at themselves.
00:21:12.580 --> 00:21:33.000 Rob Fazio: they often catch themselves, and then next time won't do it. And they'll also make intentional strategic decisions and say, You know what I'm actually not being dismissive. We'll talk about it. But this person does talk too much. I'll have a side conversation with them, and let them know what my intention is and what I'm doing, all that good leadership type of
00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:41.960 Rob Fazio: stuff. So they're open to the feedback. They act on the feedback. They're intentional. They communicate about their intentions. If they make a mistake.
00:21:42.350 --> 00:21:44.950 Rob Fazio: they admit it, and they try to correct it.
00:21:45.320 --> 00:21:53.789 Rob Fazio: If someone who is an unaware non adaptive alpha or someone who is engaging in bullying behavior. The first thing is.
00:21:54.470 --> 00:22:19.240 Rob Fazio: a lot of them are thinking they're helping others through their behavior. So Mira was working too slow, so I just cut her mic, and I finished the meeting for her. Right? You know what mira doesn't speak up enough, so I just go to Sue, and I don't call on Mira anymore, or like, you know, Mira said the same thing 3 times. So when she says that I don't even I don't even address her right.
00:22:19.690 --> 00:22:30.679 Rob Fazio: The ones that that are worse. It's when they know what they're doing, and they're using their positional power, their personality, or oftentimes even physical presence, to intimidate
00:22:30.700 --> 00:22:47.130 Rob Fazio: people on a consistent basis. And they're very, very good at being like well, you know, I guess we call it gas lighting now, but it's like Well, why did you feel intimidated I? Why wasn't intimidating? I once executive yell at me?
00:22:47.170 --> 00:22:59.580 Rob Fazio: Because Feedback came and said that he was intimidating, and he banged his hand down on the table and said, I am not intimidating, and I was like, Wow, I'm experiencing your feedback, you know.
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:07.079 Rob Fazio: so the difference is, there is. There's often a lack of awareness, but they're not willing to do the work. And and they're just so self
00:23:07.430 --> 00:23:08.540 Rob Fazio: focused.
00:23:08.760 --> 00:23:21.790 Rob Fazio: And they're really difficult people to turn around. Not that it can't be done, but it is not an employee's job to change such a deep rooted pattern of behavior.
00:23:22.430 --> 00:23:23.680 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah.
00:23:23.730 --> 00:23:31.450 Mira Brancu: So I'm gonna now a ask the obvious questions, what you do about those most
00:23:31.780 --> 00:23:47.879 Rob Fazio: like intractable bullying behavior folks like, what do you do with that? Yeah, you watch the hard skills podcast on Fridays and try to see they're the the first step
00:23:48.010 --> 00:24:03.219 Rob Fazio: which is oftentimes an unpopular one, is around ownership. Taking a look at yourself, taking a look at what's going on, and asking yourself a tough question such as am I in any way contributing
00:24:03.330 --> 00:24:14.309 Rob Fazio: to these behaviors or this pattern behavior? And the reason that's a tough question is because we know we don't wanna blame the victim. However, we also don't want to create more victims
00:24:14.750 --> 00:24:33.409 Rob Fazio: just because of what someone else is doing because of whatever issues that they have. So that's the first step is is to look ourselves. I think, then we need hope, support, and a plan right? We need to have some hope that we can change this this situation. The support is
00:24:33.420 --> 00:24:43.430 Rob Fazio: building alliances. Having conversations with colleagues that you trust, or friends getting that support, talking it through, getting advice.
00:24:43.760 --> 00:24:52.199 Rob Fazio: identifying and building alliances with aware adaptive alphas! The more senior they are the better, or they are mitigating
00:24:52.900 --> 00:25:04.479 Rob Fazio: the bullying the bullying behaviors, and then having a bullet proof plan right? Having a plan of what you're going to do, conversations that you're that you're going to have.
00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:30.000 Rob Fazio: What I'll also say is some of the my favorite work on Successful intelligence done by Bob Sternberg, where he looks at practical intelligence. Ii really like that. So III like to simplify things and summarize as fit fight or flight. So if you're in an organization, you're getting bullied if it works for you, and it's not a big deal, and you could deal with it great. It's dysfunctional.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:43.699 Rob Fazio: But if you could deal with it and you're being successful, and it's not harming you other people. Fine, then it's it's fight. If you don't like what's going on, you try to change the environment, try to change the person through the alliances and and different strategies.
00:25:43.700 --> 00:25:58.559 Rob Fazio: And if that doesn't work, you've got a tough decision, and it might be flight where you have to work for a different boss go to different organization. I know that is very difficult, especially for people who are supporting families or themselves.
00:25:58.560 --> 00:26:14.080 Rob Fazio: but it's much more difficult to recover from a a lifetime in a career of getting bully behavior, because now you're going to become more timid. You're not going to get your point of view out there. And you've got to do something where you can re-engage your your best self.
00:26:16.330 --> 00:26:20.750 Mira Brancu: That's a lot of really good advice. So
00:26:20.770 --> 00:26:27.779 Mira Brancu: after we come back from the break. I am going to dig in even more into some of these ideas that you shared.
00:26:27.800 --> 00:26:49.800 Mira Brancu: So we're gonna take a pause there, though, and take a break as a reminder. You are watching the and listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mirabanku and our guest, Rob Fazio, the hard skills. Airs live every Friday, one pm, Eastern, if you'd like to join us online and ask questions of us, please do. And we'll be right back with our guest in just a moment.
00:28:51.100 --> 00:28:58.929 Mira Brancu: Welcome. Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Maya Bronku, and with my guests, rob Azio. Okay? So
00:28:59.130 --> 00:29:26.309 Mira Brancu: when we left off, you gave us a lot of ideas for how to address bullying behavior. The first is to look within, and the second is to sort of gain, you know, gain alliances, support gain the the hope necessary that things will get better free to plan and some ideas around that plan. Now, I'm gonna go backwards into looking inwards first.
00:29:26.420 --> 00:29:33.300 Mira Brancu: the way that that you were describing it started me thinking about 2 ways
00:29:33.620 --> 00:29:47.729 Mira Brancu: that I often work with people around looking inward, and one is Are you holding people accountable for their behaviors as a leader? Right like, if you're the leader of a bully.
00:29:47.960 --> 00:30:03.600 Mira Brancu: Sometimes I have leaders with just super nice personalities. Sounds like, you know, different from some of your phrases, maybe, but they're like all the way on the other end of the spectrum, which is just as destructive. They work so hard
00:30:03.650 --> 00:30:05.310 Mira Brancu: to get along
00:30:05.670 --> 00:30:10.030 Mira Brancu: that they are dismissing really bad behavior.
00:30:10.120 --> 00:30:25.339 Mira Brancu: and it's having such a bad influence on the rest of the team, because you're not holding people accountable. That's one way to look inward, right? The other is that we don't often realize how much we train other people
00:30:25.370 --> 00:30:29.390 Mira Brancu: to behave in certain ways towards us. And sometimes
00:30:29.790 --> 00:30:37.330 Mira Brancu: we don't put boundaries. We say everything's okay. We don't say anything about it. No problem. It's okay. We'll figure it out.
00:30:37.470 --> 00:30:40.289 Mira Brancu: And that's the message that people get.
00:30:40.300 --> 00:30:44.660 Mira Brancu: And they think it's not a problem. So
00:30:44.700 --> 00:30:55.519 Mira Brancu: is there any other stuff around, like looking inward that you have found when you're working with leaders to think about that they might not realize is perpetuating an issue.
00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:03.349 Rob Fazio: III think the one that is most popular is the A. This comes from
00:31:03.410 --> 00:31:21.019 Rob Fazio: Tony Smith, who is a late colleague of mine. He used to always say never! Hinted Hope as a leader, and so often times leader would be like, you know. Mira, you're doing great, and it'd be awesome if you just round it out the edges. Right? Okay, great.
00:31:21.020 --> 00:31:35.849 Rob Fazio: Hit your numbers. Okay. And that person just got permission to continue to be themselves. So I see that a lot. I also see a lot of the rationalization of the behaviors. Right? So I've had
00:31:36.260 --> 00:31:44.620 Rob Fazio: countless times. There's an executive team. There's a senior executive who is a great leader and a really kind person.
00:31:45.150 --> 00:32:04.399 Rob Fazio: and there's a person or 2 that is completely dysfunctional bullying people leave the team. But the business really like Suzy and Suzy's an all star, and the business doesn't wanna see it doesn't wanna hear it. And the leader isn't willing to influence upward and to take a stand.
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:23.129 Rob Fazio: To say we need to let this person go. It's not appropriate, and we all know this. Then your you know your A players become B to C players, and then it just creates havoc and dysfunction. I see that a lot, and it's unfortunate. So I think the message there is that it it it's
00:32:23.260 --> 00:32:37.670 Rob Fazio: I don't know what the the metaphor is, but it's like if you, if if you're trying to hide something. Let's say you're really stressed out. You've got an eye twitch. It's not a neurological thing. Just you got an eye twitch because back to my sports psychology days. I was working with a swimmer, and I had.
00:32:37.820 --> 00:32:59.480 Rob Fazio: And I was really stressed out about taking the Jerry's. And I was working there on performance and anxiety, and I said, You know we all have target organs, and like your stomach, your eyes, you mean like your I twitch right now so immediately into my my awareness, where we all have these things that that can stress this out and looking inward is about being aware of when we feel those things for me.
00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:07.880 Rob Fazio: When someone is controlling or bullying I get. I feel tightness in my throat to be aware of that and to know, okay, something isn't right here.
00:33:08.250 --> 00:33:09.090 Rob Fazio: And
00:33:09.900 --> 00:33:20.569 Rob Fazio: I think gone are the days of just being aware or okay, we have to take more action. We have to advocate, but we have to do in a way that
00:33:21.100 --> 00:33:29.719 Rob Fazio: people hear and receive as opposed to going to this attack or avoid type of approach to communicating.
00:33:30.100 --> 00:33:40.079 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I really like that cause. I mean, I do think that sometimes we honestly don't know that we're having a negative impact until somebody tells us. And other people are
00:33:40.120 --> 00:33:43.300 Mira Brancu: sometimes afraid to just
00:33:43.350 --> 00:33:57.009 Mira Brancu: be honest, that your behavior is affecting people negatively like, it's a hard conversation to have right to to share that. And at the same time. I totally agree with you 100, that one of the most common
00:33:57.050 --> 00:33:59.440 Mira Brancu: experiences that I see
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:15.720 Mira Brancu: and we think about this often when when we work on team development, right when when we think about team development, you have the productivity side people who are results oriented and you have the relational side people who are super, you know,
00:34:15.850 --> 00:34:24.310 Mira Brancu: interested in creating a healthy, warm, welcoming environment and cohesive right? But you need both
00:34:24.350 --> 00:34:39.219 Mira Brancu: for high achieving, you know, high performance of a team. You need both, and sometimes we over emphasize one over the other, and none none none of the over emphasizing is good. When you over emphasize relational stuff.
00:34:39.310 --> 00:34:51.769 Mira Brancu: then you don't necessarily hold people accountable, and you let things slide, and you don't get the results that you want to see, because you're over supportive in some ways of all kinds of behaviors when you're
00:34:51.900 --> 00:35:17.129 Mira Brancu: over emphasizing the productivity side, the results side you're under, emphasizing how important it is to get along and work with other people. And this this side the productivity side is where we often see that people say, well, he's such a high performer. She's such a high performer. We can't let her go, you know, like everything else, will suffer if we let this one person go. Well, that's not true. Everyone's leaving. They're fleeing.
00:35:17.210 --> 00:35:22.980 Mira Brancu: you know, because of the environment that this one person produces but
00:35:23.520 --> 00:35:29.729 Mira Brancu: maybe that person doesn't even know, like they're just like. So into the results and so into like.
00:35:29.740 --> 00:35:53.839 Rob Fazio: you know, speed mode getting things done that they're not realizing they're leaving all kinds of dead bodies in their wake, you know, and it's and those are excellent points, you know. I call it retired in place right?
00:35:53.840 --> 00:36:17.849 Rob Fazio: Less so aggressive, or don't have that need to always give their point of view. Well, they stop giving their point of view. So now you've got a team that isn't adding value altogether. So in those situations you try to teach what I call someone has an elevated performance motive which could be very functional. Is to manage that and pull, use it to pull people in. So we gonna get performance through our people.
00:36:18.640 --> 00:36:32.540 Rob Fazio: What do you do? Tell us more? Yeah. So the the. So I use this this tool called the motivational currency calculator, which gives people 3 things recognition of what their motivators are.
00:36:32.690 --> 00:36:37.549 Rob Fazio: reading, which is the ability to read cues and others, and then leading, which is how you adapt.
00:36:37.720 --> 00:36:52.559 Rob Fazio: And so this is based on David Mcclelland, who was a Harvard psychologist years ago, all this research on social motives. And so there's there's 4 motivators or drivers, performance people, power and purpose.
00:36:52.610 --> 00:36:53.750 Rob Fazio: And
00:36:53.790 --> 00:37:00.999 Rob Fazio: unlike most psychologists. We didn't use boxes or colors. There's no force choice. You can be
00:37:01.140 --> 00:37:10.449 Rob Fazio: a constellation of these motivators, high, medium or low. The people that we work with often are gonna have a very elevated
00:37:10.460 --> 00:37:24.839 Rob Fazio: performance motive. And in this assessment, if there's an absence of a people motivator or a purpose motivator that's dangerous, because this person will just run amok. And just think that they're driving, and everything they do is good.
00:37:24.860 --> 00:37:36.340 Rob Fazio: So we teach them to try to do is to be curious to leverage other people that have a high performance motive, but also really good on the relationship side or people side.
00:37:36.630 --> 00:37:49.170 Rob Fazio: The biggest thing is to get through them. You have to demonstrate the value of them going through some pain to change the way they typically already behaved so often times that comes down of? How can they make more money
00:37:49.190 --> 00:37:52.219 Rob Fazio: if they ramp down on a performance motive?
00:37:52.710 --> 00:37:55.840 Mira Brancu: Got it? Yeah. So
00:37:55.930 --> 00:37:57.110 Mira Brancu: you know the
00:37:57.180 --> 00:38:20.630 Mira Brancu: that does address one question I had about like, why, why would a bully wanna change their behavior? And one of those reasons is try to figure out what their motivator is, if their motivator is trying to get some specific results right performance result. Then, like, lean into helping them do that, but help them figure out. You know how to do that in a way that
00:38:20.830 --> 00:38:26.629 Mira Brancu: enhances their performance through people, for example, as another. You know, somebody else's motivator.
00:38:26.820 --> 00:38:31.920 Rob Fazio: What's what's been shocking to me, and is just as common as
00:38:32.200 --> 00:38:40.280 Rob Fazio: I'll have the perception. Let's say I'm I'm working with. I don't know investment banker heads. Whatever stereotypically alpha type of
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:50.980 Rob Fazio: role. And they're they're burning through, you know, junior bankers, clients, whatever. And we'll do this this assessment, and I'd be like.
00:38:51.410 --> 00:39:19.279 Rob Fazio: I'll be like. Sue, I don't get it like your purpose. Motive is is higher than your performance motive. But you come across as this like dictator and authoritarian like. Why you do that, she's like, well, I've got 3 kids. I've gotta show up this way. So people respect me and and then, once they understand that II need you to show a little bit more of that purpose. Right? Not you. Don't talk about your family, but I need you to demonstrate that you care for other, and you care about the organization, and you want other
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:22.590 people to make money just a 10 degree shift.
00:39:22.780 --> 00:39:26.550 Rob Fazio: And I think people will give you even more respect, and you'll get more out of them.
00:39:27.270 --> 00:39:28.120 Mira Brancu: Hmm!
00:39:28.450 --> 00:39:47.140 Mira Brancu: That's really good. You mentioned since since you mentioned you know, being a woman in in that kind of space? Where she's trying to show up in a certain way. And obviously my interest area is women and leadership. Sometimes. Women are kind of dissuaded for E from even leaning into.
00:39:47.420 --> 00:39:57.190 Mira Brancu: I mean, they're they're judged more harshly for bullying behavior, but also they're dissuaded for even leaning into positive alpha behavior. And I'm sort of curious what your thoughts are on that.
00:39:57.760 --> 00:39:59.399 Rob Fazio: Well,
00:39:59.850 --> 00:40:04.739 Rob Fazio: I am. I think that women need to be all in, and we need more women owning their alpha.
00:40:05.180 --> 00:40:26.010 Rob Fazio: Ii wrote an article I don't know, maybe 4 years ago, on the importance of the Alpha female, and it's the only article of people have written that it wrote over the years. For some reason it it struck a chord, and I got a lot of people asking about it, and such, I think what happens is because we've all coached
00:40:26.190 --> 00:40:29.699 Rob Fazio: executives and executive women, and they'll get feedback on
00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:54.880 Rob Fazio: get better executive presence, and it's like, Well, what what does that mean? Do you want? You want them to argue like the men that are being idiots right now is that what you want to see? Right? So women naturally that are, alphas! Are more naturally from, in my view, predispose to be effective because they counteract the blind side of being a pure alpha
00:40:54.900 --> 00:41:22.149 Rob Fazio: with their strong interpersonal skills that we know from emotional intelligence, such as reading queues and others being more collaborative, bringing others along. It does not mean that men cannot engage in these behaviors. I just see more women, whether it's social, biological, whatever are more naturally able to do that. And I think we need to encourage women to do that. And so then, about 5 or so tips I have in the chapter on the Importance of Alpha. Women on things like
00:41:22.150 --> 00:41:35.979 Rob Fazio: don't apologize every time that that you speak or say something that might be unpopular or another one is. don't just take on initiatives. That are about gender diversify so people don't just see you as a woman advocating for women.
00:41:36.790 --> 00:41:42.929 Mira Brancu: Those are really good and you know, II really appreciate your
00:41:42.940 --> 00:41:46.739 Mira Brancu: you know, comments on the fact that
00:41:47.250 --> 00:41:50.220 Mira Brancu: there! There is something about
00:41:50.240 --> 00:42:16.399 Mira Brancu: women who end up having these. You know alpha characteristics because of the fact that they've also learned how to navigate a lot of usually a lot of adversity. A lot of sort of narrow band of acceptable behavior. And so they're really attuned to people's reactions. And that emotional intelligence comes into play in a way. That is kind of unique for women who have gone through that. So
00:42:16.600 --> 00:42:17.380 Mira Brancu: yeah.
00:42:17.690 --> 00:42:42.880 Mira Brancu: yes, that that that's absolutely true. The path is more challenging. However, they're better equipped.
00:42:42.930 --> 00:42:45.209 Mira Brancu: We'll come back in just a few moments.
00:44:49.310 --> 00:44:55.620 Mira Brancu: Welcome welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mayor Bronku and our guest, Dr. Rob Fazio.
00:44:55.680 --> 00:45:07.959 Mira Brancu: We've been talking a lot about bullying behavior. The one thing that we haven't touched on that I did read in your book that I find fascinating is this idea of subtle strength.
00:45:07.970 --> 00:45:12.030 Mira Brancu: So I would love for you to share a little bit more about this. What is subtle strength?
00:45:12.090 --> 00:45:20.800 Rob Fazio: Yes, that was actually the initial title of the book. But bulletproof tracked much better is little little more fun for people So
00:45:20.940 --> 00:45:36.760 Rob Fazio: we talked about the different types of alphas, which is great on the identification. But then it's kind of. That's what you view. But what do you do? And so subtle strength is one of 4 strength styles and there are a bunch of free quizzes people can take on. Get bulletproof.com
00:45:36.860 --> 00:45:54.269 Rob Fazio: where you learn what your natural tendencies are around influencing and communicating. So I mentioned the whole idea of attacking or voiding which people get pulled into. So there's a continuum of communication styles or strength styles that I call them, that ranges from
00:45:54.270 --> 00:46:14.499 Rob Fazio: submissive all the way to dominant, and submissiveness and dominance is where you get in trouble, and that's where the bully wants you, cause they can win in dominance, because that is their ring where they fight, and if you're submissive, great, you just roll over. But the 2 in the middle are subtle and overt. Overt is just very similar to what you think of when we say natural, like assertiveness.
00:46:14.690 --> 00:46:16.110 Rob Fazio: subtle strength
00:46:16.310 --> 00:46:28.670 Rob Fazio: is the one that I think has been the most fun to work with, and I define that as intentional influence, through using calm confidence that demonstrates both respect and backbone.
00:46:29.190 --> 00:46:57.840 Rob Fazio: So when people go to influence someone that is difficult. I think that they forget that that they need to be very strategic, not getting pulled into something, and they have to have backbone. You can't just roll over. But you also have to demonstrate respect, cause at the moment that you try to influence a bully or an alpha or something, and they don't think that you respect their ambitions of what they're doing. They're gonna shut you down and double down on their their bully
00:46:57.870 --> 00:47:14.930 Rob Fazio: and here I also forgot to mention one other framework. Can I talk about the the deals framework really quick that I think supple? So there! Ii use this acronym deals, and the whole idea of mindset wise is to actually try to get on the same page as a bully.
00:47:14.950 --> 00:47:29.679 Rob Fazio: Because they are so used to getting pushed away and and being isolated. And I learned this when I first started working with doctors. You've always gotta let them tell their story. If you wanna get somewhere, let them go first be the bigger person
00:47:30.250 --> 00:47:39.330 Rob Fazio: so deals, stands for, depersonalize, empathize, align, look for the hook. and show subtle strength.
00:47:39.570 --> 00:48:07.939 Rob Fazio: Let me focus on the first 3, and then we'll we'll move on from here. The first 3 are the most important cause of the toughest to personalize is the hardest, and and I get triggered by this all the time, and sometimes my wife has to remind me like, read that chapter, because if someone treats you a certain way. Like, if there's a soccer parent like yelling at your coaching, what you're doing, it's like I'm volunteering here. You can get triggered and take it. Personally, we don't realize is that person might have a bad day, or that person might be a little nuts.
00:48:07.950 --> 00:48:19.020 Rob Fazio: That's the hardest thing to do. Then the empathize. Empathizing with that person's situation doesn't condone the behavior, but letting them share their story. What's really important to them
00:48:19.430 --> 00:48:34.369 Rob Fazio: is critical, that changes dynamic and then aligning or even agreeing with something that that bullying is doing. Really helps helps you develop a relationship with someone that isn't used to people being patient to build relationships with.
00:48:35.240 --> 00:48:37.160 Mira Brancu: I love that because
00:48:37.270 --> 00:48:58.280 Mira Brancu: I it makes me think a little bit about that book getting to. Yes, where? It's all about recognizing that if you take a position and you dig in your heels on your position about what you think is the right way to go. It's over the conversations over before it started right. And what you're saying is
00:48:58.450 --> 00:49:05.090 Mira Brancu: don't like, just let your position go for just a second open to the fact that
00:49:05.430 --> 00:49:10.269 Mira Brancu: whatever this person is going through is what they're going through. It's their thing, not yours.
00:49:10.360 --> 00:49:20.159 Rob Fazio: and then try to find a window window of opportunity where you can find some connection, and that opens up other opportunities that you ha! You hadn't
00:49:20.230 --> 00:49:26.350 Mira Brancu: you wouldn't have allowed yourself to open up because you had previously taken a position right?
00:49:26.460 --> 00:49:28.800 Rob Fazio: Precisely precisely because.
00:49:28.890 --> 00:49:52.180 Rob Fazio: you know you have this angst towards that person or that bully, and you're not thinking of collaborating. You just want to defeat them, but they're better at fighting. They just start like the worst. The worst advice is, what do you do when a bully punches you in the face. Punch. No, they're gonna bury you. You've got to figure out a dodge, and we even, or have someone else punch him like, No, yeah.
00:49:52.210 --> 00:50:21.140 Mira Brancu: dodge. We've dance. Let's dance this way. Right? Okay, as we're closing out. I would love to hear a little bit more about your nonprofit as well, and while you share with us, I'm gonna also share with those of the folks who are watching now or later on, on. Video, I'm gonna show your websites, including the hold the door website.
00:50:21.240 --> 00:50:41.490 Rob Fazio: Yeah, absolutely. So II started out talking about how I got in this business was about my dad and working New York City. And unfortunately he was in the Twin Towers on 9 11, and he was last seen holding the door to help people. He didn't make it home, but we found this purpose in his legacy and his kindness of
00:50:41.490 --> 00:51:00.920 Rob Fazio: holding door to help people. So we develop resources where we try to help people grow through loss and adversity. We've got an assessment that help people understand what resources buffer, trauma and and the negative aspects of trauma and help you actually grow through the experience. And
00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:16.859 Rob Fazio: it couldn't be more important than you know what our country or all the the world is going through right now with the recent terrorist attacks. And you know just everyone taking a look at theirselves, hugging their loved ones and realizing that we're all responsible for our own growth.
00:51:16.860 --> 00:51:24.000 Rob Fazio: and one of our big philosophies that also works in leadership when it comes to bullying and everything is you've got to do work on yourself
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:37.079 Rob Fazio: before, during and after crisis and difficult situations. Because if you do that, if it happens again or happens, someone else, you're better repaired, and it and lessens the intensity of the impact of the crisis or trauma.
00:51:37.610 --> 00:51:39.900 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely.
00:51:40.090 --> 00:51:52.629 Mira Brancu: And I'm I'm so sorry that you lost your father in this way. And what an amazing way to carry out his legacy to help and support others through this! That's just incredible.
00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:59.339 Rob Fazio: Thank you, we're we're we're grateful that we have such a powerful story. And you know, feel very fortunate about that.
00:51:59.690 --> 00:52:08.530 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Yeah. And so what is the one thing out of all of the things that you've been sharing with us today that you want people to take away from today.
00:52:11.160 --> 00:52:17.740 Rob Fazio: I want people to get really passionate about elevating others.
00:52:18.700 --> 00:52:24.080 Rob Fazio: even when you're feeling down. So even when you're at your worst, think outside yourself and think.
00:52:24.160 --> 00:52:26.019 Rob Fazio: who can I help grow today.
00:52:27.660 --> 00:52:45.570 Mira Brancu: That's wonderful. Yeah. The the one thing that I think, I took away from today. Okay, I took a lot of things because everybody everybody knows I write a lot of stuff. However. I think we kept coming back to
00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:57.389 Mira Brancu: and I'm gonna say it in my own words. But know where you stop and someone else starts meaning, understand yourself well enough to know
00:52:57.750 --> 00:53:07.639 Mira Brancu: what you're bringing to a situation and what to do with that, intentionally and thoughtfully, and where someone else is perhaps bringing their own
00:53:07.740 --> 00:53:24.379 Mira Brancu: baggage, their own stuff. And you know what what to do with that. And it's not that obvious. It's not that easy. It takes work, and, like you said, even through your work, through hold the door. It's all about like, you know, before, during and after the work that needs to be done.
00:53:24.520 --> 00:53:35.620 Rob Fazio: Yes, and just one more quick thing. II think we travel through space thinking that things are supposed to just happen and be good. And if you don't do the work on yourself.
00:53:35.780 --> 00:53:45.500 Rob Fazio: we're gonna fall behind each of us. So that's why. And and it's so important to have a good crew of people around you and friends like you
00:53:45.870 --> 00:53:52.650 Mira Brancu: 100. All right. So if people wanna learn more about your work, where can they go?
00:53:52.960 --> 00:54:00.790 Rob Fazio: So the easiest thing is just to go to get bulletproof.com. There'll be all sorts of free resources there downloadable worksheets.
00:54:00.910 --> 00:54:04.859 That's the best spot, or Linkedin. I'm pretty active on Linkedin as well.
00:54:05.350 --> 00:54:19.760 Mira Brancu: Excellent, alright. So there are many things that we pulled out from today's talk with Rob more importantly, what is one small change that you can implement this week? Our dear audience.
00:54:19.770 --> 00:54:40.009 Mira Brancu: on what you learn from Rob, share it with us on Linkedin, at Mirabranku or Rob Fazio and at talk radio to Nyc, so we could cheer you on. And yes, we're also on Facebook, Instagram twitter twitch all over the place. But Linkedin sounds like is where both Rob and I live. So visit us there.
00:54:40.010 --> 00:54:53.200 Mira Brancu: We're also the hard skills is now officially on Youtube, actually sorry on you. Itunes and spotify as an official podcast so if you like this.
00:54:53.610 --> 00:55:00.739 Mira Brancu: please subscribe to the podcast leave us a review share with others to help us increase our visibility, reach and impact.
00:55:01.850 --> 00:55:17.649 Mira Brancu: Next Friday we are talking with Nori Jabba. This is our season finale next Friday, so please do join us, and she will share with us her experiences about entering the workforce after taking time off
00:55:17.690 --> 00:55:26.699 Mira Brancu: to raise her young children, and how she transcended ageism and generational gaps. To redefine success for herself. So you're not gonna want to miss that.
00:55:27.040 --> 00:55:50.629 Mira Brancu: Remember, this is a radio show. And podcast while yes, I'm a clinical psychologist and organizational psychologist and rob is a counseling psychologist and organizational Si psychologist. We are not your coach and your consultant. If you would like leadership and team coaching services, you can check us out. You can check me out at Gotowerscopecom and submit a request for us for free initial consultation.
00:55:50.770 --> 00:56:01.349 Mira Brancu: And thank you. Talk radio, Nyc. For hosting. I'm Dr. Mirabanka, your host of the hard skills. And this was Rob Fazio, have a great rest of your day. Wherever you're tuning in from
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