Friday, June 30, 2023
Facebook Live Video from 2023/06/30 - The Intangibles of Health-Tech and Fin-Tech

Facebook Live Video from 2023/06/30 - The Intangibles of Health-Tech and Fin-Tech


2023/06/30 - The Intangibles of Health-Tech and Fin-Tech

[NEW EPISODE] The Intangibles of Health-Tech and Fin-Tech

Fridays 12:00pm - 1:00pm (EDT)                              


When launching or growing a successful health-tech or fin-tech business, what are the intangibles that make a difference? How do innovation and intangibles impact the future of healthcare?


Starting and growing a successful health-tech or fintech venture requires an understanding of the landscape and the problem to be solved, development of an innovative product or service that elegantly meets the need, identifying partners and building a team over time, and numerous other intangibles.  My guest Chris Ellis discusses Thatch, an all-in-one platform for employers to offer the most personalized healthcare experience to employees.  Chris will be joined by my health correspondent, Frank R. Harrison, the host of Frank About Health, following Chris' recent appearance on that podcast, for a look at the Thatch venture from a different perspective - the intangible aspects of a health-tech or fin-tech business and how they drive the future of healthcare.

KEY WORDS:  #healthtech #fintech #venture #entrepreneurship #innovation #team

Tune in for this sensible conversation at

Show Notes

Segment  1

Matthew graciously introduces esteemed guests Frank R. Harrison and Chris Ellis to the show. Chris eloquently shares insights into his professional journey and the path that led him to his current role. He elaborates on the transformative impact of his experiences in the healthcare field, driving his passion to enhance healthcare delivery for individuals. Frank provides additional context, shedding light on the topics he explored with Chris during their conversation on his own show.

Segment 2

Matthew engages in an insightful discourse on the attributes of successful entrepreneurs, emphasizing the need to deviate from conventional norms and think innovatively. Chris provides a personal account of how he has applied such principles in his own career. Matthew further underscores the significance of self-critique for entrepreneurs to chart a path to success. Chris expounds on the necessity of identifying one's target market and assembling a capable team. Echoing this sentiment, Frank highlights the pivotal role talent plays in the journey toward becoming a successful entrepreneur.

Segment 3

Chris emphasizes the paramount significance of recruiting the right individuals to form a successful team, stressing the importance of innovation within the team's dynamics. He proceeds to elaborate on his personal experiences in identifying and selecting the ideal candidates for his team. In a dialogue with Frank, they delve into the screening processes employed to secure suitable members for the team.

Segment 4

Chris articulates his perspective on entrepreneurs who seek to build businesses with the intent of being acquired. He delves into various strategies that entrepreneurs can employ if their goal is to attract potential buyers. Additionally, Chris explores the process of pivoting if an entrepreneur's objectives change, leading them away from a selling trajectory. Frank supplements the discussion by emphasizing the significance of building connections with people while establishing health oriented businesses, given the profound impact such ventures can have on individuals’ lives. Concluding the show, Chris offers valuable advice to budding entrepreneurs who are embarking on their journey into the business world.


00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:55.110 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Hi, there. Good afternoon. Happy Friday. This is minute. You asked them. We're here on in tang. If I tangify as a podcast where we talk about the intangible aspects of business. but you know, I I gotta say that on top radio, dot Nyc, where this is hosted. I'm very proud of.

00:00:55.180 --> 00:01:12.079 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know what we've been developing, because, you know, within the various shows that are on there. We've not only had programs that are, you know, sort of geared towards our particular subject matter in our particular podcast but we've actually found a way to collaborate between hosts.

00:01:12.100 --> 00:01:21.240 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And I'm very pleased once again to have my health care correspondent on this call. Frank Harrison, who is the host of Frank about all

00:01:21.930 --> 00:01:25.380 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: it's particular, and you know, welcome, frank?

00:01:25.570 --> 00:01:27.079 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: it's particularly

00:01:27.220 --> 00:01:39.050 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq:  thanks. It's particularly you know, wonderful that we are having these sort of cross, collaborative types of podcasts.

00:01:39.140 --> 00:01:43.290 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: because, you know, we did a a show where

00:01:43.300 --> 00:02:10.070 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: where where I spoke on Frank's show about intellectual property and tangible aspects in the health, care, industry, and where Frank spoke on my show, right about those about healthcare. And in that context, today, we're doing things a little bit differently in that we have a guest Our guest is Chris Ellis, and Chris is the CEO and founder of a company called Thatch.

00:02:10.130 --> 00:02:13.999 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: truly doesn't sort of a new way of providing health care. Welcome, Chris.

00:02:14.970 --> 00:02:17.290 Chris Ellis: thank you for having me glad to be here.

00:02:18.500 --> 00:02:38.370 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So Chris is. Gonna talk to us a little bit, and and I gotta say that you know we. So this week on Frank, about health, on Frank's on Frank's podcast. Yesterday, we spoke about sort of a new way of accessing healthcare. i' through thatch Chris was the guest.

00:02:38.410 --> 00:02:43.079 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and Frank was the host, and I and I had, you know, my cameo appearance.

00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:56.959 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq:  today we're looking at it from a different angle. And so we're continuing the conversation from yesterday. But now talking about that, the business, how it came to be and

00:02:57.060 --> 00:03:21.640 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and and we're trying to do that in light of health tech businesses and Fintech businesses and the kinds of intangibles that they value that they need, and that they they pursue, and how they, you know, get to where Chris is having, you know, successfully launched a you know a a very interesting business with a very new business model.

00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:38.450 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So I think to to start us off. I'll I'll you know I'll for those who did not get to hear. Chris and Frank on Frank about health yesterday. For the benefit of that I'm going to ask Chris to briefly introduce himself. So, Chris, can you tell us a little bit about your background?

00:03:39.590 --> 00:03:57.390 Chris Ellis: Of course, so quick background on me. I started off my career in science. I was a cancer researcher at Mit and Grad school, but always knew I wanted to start something in my own one day. So I joined a startup founded the Us. Sales team for a clinical software company. So ditch the

00:03:57.510 --> 00:04:18.210 Chris Ellis: lab code for not a suit went door to door sell like clinical software all across the country learned a lot about the wild world of healthcare regulation and business models and healthcare that let me into a larger biotech called agile. It was on the software product team, and always there met my co-founder, Adam Stevenson. amazing guy software

00:04:18.541 --> 00:04:28.830 Chris Ellis: engineer and then let technical teams at stripe start off his career in health insurance, and we came together to found that which is this new way to do health care?

00:04:29.070 --> 00:04:42.710 Chris Ellis: the way companies can just define a budget like a 401 for health care, and let their employees spend it. How they want made possible by this new law called Icra, our individual coverage health reimbursement arrangement in the past few years ago.

00:04:44.080 --> 00:04:45.570 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Thanks very much.

00:04:45.750 --> 00:04:58.230 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So. so it's interesting, right? You've had this sort of scientific background. we talked a little bit yesterday about your personal background that ties into that and sort of what drove you into that area this area.

00:04:58.930 --> 00:05:00.140 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But

00:05:00.310 --> 00:05:05.059 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But you know, at at at some point you had to have

00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:13.119 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: kind of arrived at. This is You know, I'm gonna do something. I'm gonna do something new. This is what I'm gonna do.

00:05:13.180 --> 00:05:22.419 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And I don't know if it was like, you know this Aha! Moment you you you you know. You woke up one day and said, You know I've been working in startups. I've been interested in health care.

00:05:22.530 --> 00:05:33.480 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Gee! I should do this or you know, or if this is something that sort of morphed over time, how did you? How do you formulate the idea of this new business that you've started.

00:05:34.700 --> 00:05:46.209 Chris Ellis: There's this prevailing view in modern culture that there's this visionary founder who comes up with an idea in the shower and then relentlessly plugs away at the mission.

00:05:46.520 --> 00:05:58.879 Chris Ellis: I I think it's some cases this could be true, but generally I think this is a myth. The V 0 kind of version of your idea is usually pretty bad, and my co-founder and I, when we met, we'd actually had lost

00:05:58.880 --> 00:06:04.789 Chris Ellis: parents to cancer. And we originally were taking that in a clinical direction. We thought we would do

00:06:04.790 --> 00:06:29.569 Chris Ellis: clinical trials for cancer patients. And we were. We had just left our jobs. We started talking to patients and we studiously listened to the market, and heard that the financial experience was the most painful part of the health care experience. Having just spoken to tons of people, and when we ended up raising some capital which we'll talk about at some point, I'm sure, and we got health care set up for our team.

00:06:29.660 --> 00:06:34.009 Chris Ellis: We saw the financial experience being quite that from the lens of a business owner as well.

00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:50.140 Chris Ellis: and it took us many months of learning and pouring through the regulation and thinking about the concept before we really realized that the individual coverage Hra and the health care payment rails like the Hsa and the Fsa.

00:06:50.710 --> 00:07:13.759 Chris Ellis: I. The potential to solve both those problems for individuals who are struggling with this complex system and business owners who just want to give great health care in an easy to administer way. And so our solution had kind of been staring at us in the face for a very long time before we actually realized it. Probably 8, 9 months of just listening and learning and iterating.

00:07:13.810 --> 00:07:22.140 Chris Ellis: we set out to do something big which is impact. The health care experience for a few people, and where we landed.

00:07:22.270 --> 00:07:46.240 Chris Ellis: which we believe could fundamentally change the way Americans access, health care coverage ended up getting even bigger and more promising than what we could have imagined when we started. So I always say to entrepreneurs, you know, just get started, and you'll figure it out because it's never a straight line and it it. It's never just an idea that hits you in the shower. You have to really plug away at it.

00:07:46.820 --> 00:07:50.469 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I I love that you know I I the

00:07:51.410 --> 00:07:58.779 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know it seems so much easier to know, you know, to pursue something oops

00:07:59.260 --> 00:08:10.050 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: It seems so much easier to pursue something when you have a goal, and you have an objective. And you know what that objective is, and it's not a easy goal like the one you sort of.

00:08:10.150 --> 00:08:17.550 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I mean, you had sort of idea what you're gonna do. And I guess you know, and you iterate, and you you you pivot, and but but

00:08:18.150 --> 00:08:20.029 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: having the goal directs you.

00:08:20.100 --> 00:08:31.480 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and otherwise it's just there's this massive information out there, and you know, how did you spend 8 months, you know, kind of going? Well, we had this idea.

00:08:31.490 --> 00:08:39.260 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know. It seems cool, but I don't think it's gonna work. But let's go read all this more stuff. Let's go learn more, you know.

00:08:39.580 --> 00:08:48.730 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and and even feel confident that you know. Someday I'm going to come out of this with a great idea. Did did you have? Did you think that? Someday you were going to come out of it with a great idea?

00:08:49.350 --> 00:09:07.839 Chris Ellis: Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's funny. I when I started I thought I had a great idea, and I was soon punched in the face and learned how wrong I was, and I think, you know the my philosophy on this is you. You need to have some kind of guiding principle. There has to be kind of some point to what you're doing, and

00:09:08.180 --> 00:09:37.359 Chris Ellis: or or else there's just so many ideas that you'll get lost forever. And the idea may. And and for for us, you know. I I think there's certain types of folks who just they want to be a founder. They want to start a company, and that was in some ways how I felt I had that drive. But I also had this drive to make the healthcare system better in some way for patients specifically. And as it turns out, having that forcing function where there aren't that many

00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:56.679 Chris Ellis: ideas that are venture backable and also making that impact on humans and the health care system that you're able to quickly wade through quite a bit and land on the things that can really make a difference and and matter. and that was certainly the the case for us where

00:09:56.740 --> 00:10:07.040 Chris Ellis: we had those guiding principles. But we were open to being wrong, and I think that's essential. If you're going to create something because you're going to be wrong a lot if you're going to get a lot of news.

00:10:08.740 --> 00:10:34.810 Frank R. Harrison: I just wanted to add that? Oh, no problem. I just wanted to add that when when you appeared on Frank about health yesterday, one of the things we talked about, or I asked you was, did you find that what drove you to work with that was your experience with losing your father, and I gather your co-founder having had the same experience. It was almost like a trauma bond that not only created the visionary in you that already existed, but

00:10:35.040 --> 00:10:54.919 Frank R. Harrison: people like to act out their trauma bond in a productive way. It it helps in the healing, but, more importantly, it helps in moving forward with life, and of course, being productive as you were both trying to do with that. So I think what's unique about a lot of entrepreneurs, especially those involved in healthcare, is that it's a combination of

00:10:55.060 --> 00:11:03.900 Frank R. Harrison: the motivation to execute your entrepreneurial vision, but also the drive to he from whatever trauma you've experienced and make

00:11:04.020 --> 00:11:14.340 Frank R. Harrison: that into a lesson learned. You know, I'm trying to say that that's what I thought. It was very unique about that just vision. I think it's doing exactly that for you and your founder as well as

00:11:14.390 --> 00:11:16.439 Frank R. Harrison: for your clients, your consumers.

00:11:17.530 --> 00:11:18.789 Chris Ellis: Yeah, spot on.

00:11:20.100 --> 00:11:25.920 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So you mentioned a little earlier in the conversation about about funding

00:11:25.970 --> 00:11:30.870 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and and and I'm going to segue into that, because.

00:11:30.970 --> 00:11:32.979 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, it occurs to me that

00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:36.320 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know all right. You had this vague concept, or you had this

00:11:36.330 --> 00:11:42.240 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: sort of wrong concept that ultimately, you know, developed into what what you you you decided was right.

00:11:42.510 --> 00:11:44.370 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and

00:11:44.840 --> 00:12:02.530 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: it it almost sounds to me like you had the funding before you had the concept fully figured out, and that seems perplexing to me. like, you know of what a Funder go to somebody who had a sort of a vague concept, or was going a different direction. And then and then you pivot, how? How's that work?

00:12:04.070 --> 00:12:05.709 Chris Ellis: Yeah, it's a great question.

00:12:06.150 --> 00:12:21.770 Chris Ellis: you know I I I certainly think we were really lucky to have the outcome that we did, and have a great group of folks around the table. When when we left our jobs we started out by raising first from a great set of angel investors who we had worked with

00:12:21.790 --> 00:12:34.199 Chris Ellis: at our prior companies and through our network. And at that point, at the very beginning, it's primarily a bet on the people and the founders specifically. And for sure we'll talk about

00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:55.439 Chris Ellis: the different components of making a business successful. But the the co-founder relationship and the people is the the really cornerstone of the business. And so we had built a reputation and got the backing of folks in our network before we even decided to raise venture capital. And shortly after, you know, before building your product

00:12:55.450 --> 00:13:18.140 Chris Ellis: just kind of more. Knowing the general area that we wanted to be in in health care, we identified the folks who we believed, had really strong theses in health care, and went out to seek venture capital kind of knowing that to some extent we'll be going on a an adventure together, if perhaps a fishing expedition, and and making it clear that.

00:13:18.250 --> 00:13:20.709 Chris Ellis: you know, in a business like like health care.

00:13:20.900 --> 00:13:38.850 Chris Ellis: it's a little bit trickier to just build the consumer, Mdp. And go go scale it because you've got a lot of complex regulation. You need the right advisors. You need the right patient capital, and we were fortunate to have a a good outcome. There are a lot of resources online for how to

00:13:38.850 --> 00:13:52.220 Chris Ellis: run a process, and my advice is actually to ignore all of it and talk to founders who are successful, you know, raising in the market that you're going after, and most of them are writing posts about how to do this.

00:13:52.220 --> 00:14:08.200 Chris Ellis: and a lot of founders are really smart in school, and they get the the A's and the good performance reviews. I'm not sure how much that really matters in the context of raising capital. And there's this misconception that if you work hard you'll have a a good outcome. And I actually

00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:32.709 Chris Ellis: my advice, you know more. So that, like going reading a blog post about how to raise money. is, you know. Go read Dale car and use how to win friends and influence people. it's a lot better the content you can get. You can get online because so much of the process of having someone trust you to use their money wisely is who you are as a person and the ability to build that trust and be.

00:14:32.710 --> 00:14:38.720 Chris Ellis: you know, have that relationship is is more than just your idea or the market. It's it's how you are as a person

00:14:39.070 --> 00:14:51.689 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I love that. Thank you so much. We are. we're gonna head into a break. When we come back we'll be talking further with Chris and Frank about that about health tech and about the intangible associated with them.

00:17:04.780 --> 00:17:19.800 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Welcome back to in tang. If I am your host, Matthew as well. My guests are Chris Ellis, the founder of thatch and co-founder of thatch, and Frank Harrison the of Frank about health on this in talk radio dot Nyc network.

00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:38.019 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So before the break Chris and Frank. We were talking a little bit about a a number of the different kind of intangible aspects of of of how you got started, and how and how you know how you you know, achieve funding as well.

00:17:38.220 --> 00:17:44.370 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and I I first want to like highlight a couple of those things, and then I want to go back to the funding discussion.

00:17:44.580 --> 00:18:08.269 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But Some of the things that you mentioned and I kind of. I wrote little notes as you were speaking. you know this idea of iterating and pivoting and and being able to do that seems to be one sort of intangible asset. Right? You have to be able to address when something isn't working. Recognize an idea, be open to a different idea.

00:18:08.430 --> 00:18:17.249 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq:  You know, you need to to be able to be immersed in the subject matter of the industry to

00:18:17.300 --> 00:18:27.369 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: in order to to discover where there are needs that you can. You can meet And so those seem to be important points. You you you you raised

00:18:27.580 --> 00:18:57.490 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: another one that you raised which I really liked right towards the end of the last. The last part was the idea that you should ignore the advice that's out there. Not all the advice necessarily, but it's a lot of the advice And and I I love that because, you know, we're in an information age, there's a there's a ton of information out there. Everybody's looking for a roadmap. And if I were gonna go start a business, why wouldn't I just go on Google and

00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:26.729 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: type in how to start a business or check Gpt, for that matter, and get myself a an answer. How should I start a business? How should I get funding? What should I do? A. And that sort of generic kind of information? which is not necessarily from great minds or great experts? you know I I is is sort of a formulaic approach to it's looking at. Well, this is the way things are done. So do it this way, follow this path, and you will achieve glory.

00:19:26.950 --> 00:19:30.220 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But the great entrepreneurs and I think.

00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:35.159 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, I think, Chris, I'm going to include you in that in that population?

00:19:35.560 --> 00:19:47.030 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: right have to go against the green. How else have you gone against the grain in the, in, your, in your, in your work in developing that.

00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:50.460 Chris Ellis: Yeah, I completely agree.

00:19:50.550 --> 00:20:16.920 Chris Ellis: You know very few companies are successful. And if you want to be successful, you probably have to do something that's different from how everyone else is doing it. Because most people, you know, it's got these most companies feel And so in our case, I think one of the biggest hacks here is to build a product that you use yourself and solves a problem that you have.

00:20:16.950 --> 00:20:18.010 Chris Ellis: And

00:20:18.350 --> 00:20:23.290 Chris Ellis: you hear this advice a lot But in the context of of that.

00:20:23.670 --> 00:20:41.769 Chris Ellis: you know, we almost stumbled upon it, both by reflecting on our own experiences as individual navigating the health care system, where, you know, I had an experience where my claim was denied, and I had to fight with insurance, and it was super painful, and I experienced it as

00:20:41.790 --> 00:21:07.140 Chris Ellis: someone who had the wrong insurance or had the claim denied. But but as we were hiring, our team being from the perspective of a business. How painful it is to get health insurance set up to talk to a broker and trade the Pdfs. It feels like you're in a stone chisel tablet kind of era, and one of the, you know, one of the superpowers. that my co-founder Adam, has, and

00:21:07.470 --> 00:21:11.519 Chris Ellis: I I I can't speak highly enough about the importance of

00:21:11.540 --> 00:21:18.839 Chris Ellis: going into business with the right person, because it's more of like your spouse versus your business partner. The one of his superpowers is

00:21:19.030 --> 00:21:22.639 Chris Ellis: being able to rapidly prototype an experience

00:21:22.890 --> 00:21:35.120 Chris Ellis: in the front end. So see seeing it, but having the back end not necessarily built out, because you can kind of show, 80% of what something is going to look like with 20% of the work following the 80 20 principle.

00:21:35.220 --> 00:21:44.689 Chris Ellis: And the first person you should ask yourself, Is this good to is yourself? Because hopefully, it's solving a problem you have, and once you feel reasonably confident.

00:21:44.690 --> 00:22:11.310 Chris Ellis: you rig up the beautiful dashboard where no, the buttons work. Then you show it to people and say, What am I missing here? And you start to get perspectives on? This would be great if you did. Blah, this is. And in our case we actually had first prototyped and built out the health Savings account products. And as you were showing it to customers, they said, Oh, but can you also do that for the Icra, the individual coverage, hra? And so the inspiration and the, you know, desire to pursue that path came from customer.

00:22:11.560 --> 00:22:19.369 Chris Ellis: And so so first is like show like, what do you think is missing? And then the second is like, how much would you pay for this? Because there's a lot of people who would say.

00:22:19.590 --> 00:22:40.930 Chris Ellis: No, this is really cool like Oh, I love that, you know, dashboard and the buttons look great, and oh, it's not free. Well, I mean, you know I've got, you know it's time for tough, but it's so you'll you'll really quickly find out what you're missing from our product perspective. And and what's your what your building is is valuable. And we went from day, one showing your prototype that

00:22:40.930 --> 00:22:58.070 Chris Ellis: Nobody would pay for it, and nobody thought was cool to slowly working our way to something that, like some people thought was interesting, and some people would pay a little bit for to one where today we can show a lot of value to our users and a lot of people see why they would want to sign up for that to give health care to their team.

00:22:58.230 --> 00:23:03.460 Chris Ellis: And the secret here is really minimize the amount of work

00:23:03.510 --> 00:23:22.039 Chris Ellis: that you time and work that you spend on building something people don't want and maximize the time building something people do you want? And that sounds really obvious. But in practice it's very easy to tell yourself you're moving in the right direction and having to take one step forward and 2 steps back, wasting valuable time and capital along the way

00:23:22.870 --> 00:23:27.779 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I'm going to drop parallel, or or maybe it's a contrast for you.

00:23:27.980 --> 00:23:32.429 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I don't know if either of you watched you know, ever watched American idol.

00:23:32.510 --> 00:23:37.489 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but she didn't know I was going there. But

00:23:37.610 --> 00:23:42.139 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but you know there, there's a concept right of of the performer getting on stage.

00:23:42.280 --> 00:24:02.569 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And they go all right. I'm gonna go do it, and I'm gonna go do it. How I think it should be done the way I think you know whatever I got some coaching whatever. But I'm gonna go do it. I'm great. And then remember, Simon. Let's see if I let's see what Simon has to say, because, you know, he's the only one who matters. He knows the answer I have to just follow whatever he says.

00:24:02.810 --> 00:24:10.579 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And and and I think, sure that the the the parallel to that is shark tech

00:24:10.790 --> 00:24:13.580 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I'm I'm a business.

00:24:13.710 --> 00:24:19.390 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Look how great my business is. It's so great you should invest in me I've got here. Look how I've got everything figured out.

00:24:19.870 --> 00:24:30.679 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and their job is then to put calls and what things they didn't have figured out what you're talking about, and or my interpretation of what you're talking about to be fair. I don't want to put words in your mouth.

00:24:30.830 --> 00:24:46.050 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: It is is really quite different. It it's Let me not put it out there and you know, and and be criticized. I mean, let let me first critique critique it myself.

00:24:46.110 --> 00:25:07.169 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Let let me be, but let me be honest with myself about it because I you didn't. I mean, you have to be the kind of person who who could find the critique in yourself as opposed to the person who says I'm great, and everything I do is perfect. so so to to, you know, to your credit right? Let's make sure that that that that quality is there

00:25:07.870 --> 00:25:09.470 Frank R. Harrison: but

00:25:09.700 --> 00:25:11.579 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But then let me let me

00:25:11.620 --> 00:25:38.460 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: let me run it by people. Let me let me run it by the customer. Let me get this particular feedback on price and on the solution, right? Is this solution. Now, what you need is this, you know, with this, solve the problem is, what's the what's the price point? Let me educate myself before I just I go. I go to the place where I'm going to say, hey? You know I've got this thing everybody should buy, and it's wonderful, you know, by my service.

00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:42.620 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq:  Is that fair? Is it accurate?

00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:45.760 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: the those parallels. This contrasts

00:25:46.330 --> 00:25:55.300 Chris Ellis: it. It absolutely is. And you know, when I think about kind of the raw ingredients of a successful venture.

00:25:55.910 --> 00:26:00.770 Chris Ellis: Yeah, I always put the co-founder, first, because they're kind of going on

00:26:00.820 --> 00:26:09.159 Chris Ellis: this marriage with you. and you're going on this this journey together. But then, to extend the analogy like the company is like

00:26:09.340 --> 00:26:33.350 Chris Ellis: building a house where you might have this idea for a great house like Victorian, you know, beautiful windows and all that stuff, but a lot of people forget you can build most of the places you might build that house. They're gonna be wrong, you know. There's no running water, you know it's in the middle of it, does it, whatever it might be. And so, before you think about like building your house, you need to think about the market. And is this a good market? Is there a clear? Why, now.

00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:39.120 Chris Ellis: you know, and that's like, what city is it? Do I want my house in New York. Do I want it in Nebraska, whatever it might be.

00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:53.769 Chris Ellis: and I actually think a lot of people start from the idea they should start from the person they want to build the thing with, and they should think about what market is it in our case, you know, one out of every $5 United States is spent on health here. It's a pretty big market. There's a lot of opportunity there.

00:26:54.020 --> 00:26:59.310 Chris Ellis: there, you know you eventually, as you spend more time in that market, start to figure out

00:26:59.330 --> 00:27:23.370 Chris Ellis: the idea, or the house, or and you can. You can only really come up with a great idea, I think, when you have that right team thinking about what's your asymmetric advantage, and you have to be sitting there for a pretty pretty long time before you get there, and I think in, you know, in in venture a lot of a lot of the premium gets put on the right market and the right co-founding team.

00:27:23.370 --> 00:27:37.079 Chris Ellis: Because the idea actually, you know, with enough time and thought, ends up coming to bear, no matter what, or at least, you know, in our case we feel very lucky. to to be where we are. it's always a risk.

00:27:37.080 --> 00:27:41.989 Chris Ellis: But Starting from the market, and the team is always the most important in my view.

00:27:42.690 --> 00:27:53.659 Frank R. Harrison: Chris, I just want to add to that. You know what they say about most entrepreneurs, that when you are working with a co-founder you both are creating your baby. So you have the same family dynamic model.

00:27:53.760 --> 00:28:19.629 Frank R. Harrison: Can that whole concept you just described. I just wanted to add to that, but at the same time to echo what you said, Matt. I mean, it's kind of interesting when you're dealing in a space like health care. Health care is a very human business, and we all know American idol is entertainment. So you're all showing your singing talent, your dancing talent, whatever it is you're showing. And then, when you're on shark tank, you put a little character into it because you're dealing with 5 or sometimes sticks

00:28:19.760 --> 00:28:49.189 Frank R. Harrison: unknown people who have a reputation, but they really don't have the intimate bond with you that you have. What? 5 to 10 min to present to them, of course, a tested version, but the thing is is that when you are impressing on any one particular shark, let's say they're seeing your vision. They're aligning with your thought process. And at the end of the day, when you're getting funding for something like that which seems to integrate all of the aspects of the health care sector. You need a combination of your

00:28:49.210 --> 00:29:18.869 Frank R. Harrison: talent, your entertainment talent as well as your business acumen, to be able to really create the impact. So that funding doesn't become a struggle, it becomes their only choice, because health care is something that everybody is responsible to maintaining, not just for yourself and for your family, but for the community. And I think what you've got is a perfect I wouldn't say prototype. We got a perfect vision and a perfect company that could really do its best to bring. Bring these together

00:29:19.590 --> 00:29:21.340 Frank R. Harrison:  well.

00:29:21.930 --> 00:29:39.910 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: we're going to go to a break in a minute. But I'm I'm you know what I was thinking about. what was still back on Shark Tank, because, you know, Chris has made such a a point of the importance of your team and the importance of the the people who you, your co-founder, the people you just to to work with

00:29:39.930 --> 00:29:41.680 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: as the top priority.

00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:52.929 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and on that show, from my experience, is watching that show. there is an element of selecting which of the sharks, you know, is the right one to work with.

00:29:52.990 --> 00:29:59.229 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But I'd say, for the most part, that's the emphasized compared to the dollar figure. And are you good enough?

00:29:59.430 --> 00:30:04.280 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: A. And and so that it's a very different focus.

00:30:04.340 --> 00:30:06.310 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, because

00:30:06.410 --> 00:30:15.089 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: in you know, you to select who you want to work with. If you you know, you're not going to be down to to to 5 people.

00:30:15.310 --> 00:30:22.580 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know you. You got a wider, much wider breath To be looking to, to find somebody who you want to be married to and have a baby with?

00:30:22.820 --> 00:30:27.620 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq:  yes, but

00:30:29.140 --> 00:30:45.430 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But but you know, like the that that aspect is, is is probably under emphasized on the show. You're you're going okay. Well, you have this network. You've done this before. That's about the extent of okay. I've made my decision. You're the one I'm going to go with. You're you're my person.

00:30:47.400 --> 00:31:01.600 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So we're gonna go to break. When we come back we will be talking further with Chris and Frank about other aspects of intangible aspects of the health tech and tech business, and that we'll be right back.

00:33:05.180 --> 00:33:19.620 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Welcome back to in Tang. If I am your host, Matthew as well. My guests are Chris Ellis, the co-founder of thatch, and Frank Harrison, my health care correspondent and the host of Frank about hell. Thanks for being here, guys.

00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:37.509 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: We were talking about a bunch of different intangibles and different aspects of business that sort of drove out that was formed, as well as how any entrepreneurial business should be should be formed. One of the ones really, Chris, that you harped on quite a bit was people

00:33:37.520 --> 00:33:45.170 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: how important the top most you know thing in your decision tree was, who is your co-founder? Who is your who you're working with

00:33:45.220 --> 00:33:49.360 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: initially. of course. that doesn't.

00:33:49.430 --> 00:33:56.010 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And there, because as the business grows so does the team.

00:33:56.170 --> 00:33:59.679 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And you have to deal with

00:33:59.710 --> 00:34:17.040 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: the growth internally who you need in house to do what? As well as an external team of people who you're going to call on for for needs which may not be as regular or or ones you want to have to pay benefits for. Speaking of health care benefits.

00:34:17.150 --> 00:34:22.619 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So Chris, tell us a little bit about the growth of the team and and the selection of people.

00:34:23.710 --> 00:34:38.960 Chris Ellis: Absolutely. Yeah. So I mean, if the co-founder is is the spouse, the team is, you know, the folks who are coming together to build and live in the house, and it's, you know, so important to get the right people on board, and in our case

00:34:39.130 --> 00:34:43.839 Chris Ellis: we're dealing at the with at the intersection of 2 highly regulated

00:34:43.870 --> 00:35:09.010 Chris Ellis: complicated industries which are financial services, or Kentuck and and health care which some of the largest markets, but also some of the most regulated and complex. And there's, you know, this alphabet soup of health care like Hra Fsa, Hsa. It's time consuming to figure it out on the health care side and then on the thin tech side, there's just so much domain specific knowledge just on how you

00:35:09.010 --> 00:35:36.039 Chris Ellis: build the software and think about the rules that you have to abide by that it it takes a long time to get up to speed on. And so, with Adam and I, Adam coming from a Fintech and health insurance background and my coming from a health general healthcare background. We covered a lot of our bases, but it was really important for us to surround ourselves both with like a team internally, but also with great advisors who have expertise in those areas and so on the vent tech side. A lot of our

00:35:36.160 --> 00:36:03.820 Chris Ellis: software engineers bring, you know, great bench from stripe and shopify and and Robin Hood, we also have healthcare represented from companies like Google Health. And we're also very fortunate to actually have Matthew here as our attorney, who's helped us think through a lot of the regulatory complexity, and particularly our strategy for IP, and how to protect ourselves. Being at this really complicated juncture where a lot of folks

00:36:03.820 --> 00:36:13.320 Chris Ellis: have a big presence. And wanna you know, ultimately, play a role in or have share in the market that we're we're playing in

00:36:13.510 --> 00:36:21.129 Chris Ellis: And so for us, as we thought about building the right team. A lot of it was the regulatory complexity. How we manage that get the domain expertise.

00:36:21.390 --> 00:36:46.799 Chris Ellis: a lot of it is hiring the right kind of stage of folks who want to work at a startup and dealing with a lot of actual product complexity. And so in our case, we're building a lot of different things. We're integrating into payroll systems. We're integrating into bank accounts with using Fintech and and different banking systems. We're doing plan selection and enrollment on the healthcare side. And we're doing that with a relatively small team. And so

00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:54.659 Chris Ellis: it was really key for us to hire people who could operate with a lot of autonomy limited direction, and who really

00:36:54.660 --> 00:37:17.640 Chris Ellis: thrived in the environment where they can execute with their own on their own ambitions. And so those 2 areas have being able to wrangle with the regulatory complexity, and being able to operate with a high degree of autonomy as we execute the product vision. have been just so critical to being able to stay, inimble and execute quickly in this complicated domain.

00:37:18.760 --> 00:37:35.079 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I mean, it's really easy to say, I think, that you know we need people who have these particular characteristics? And so, magically, we're going to snap our fingers. Those people are going to appear and to join our team. Ha! Ha! How do you find? How do you find these people? How do you? How do you know them?

00:37:36.350 --> 00:37:39.489 Chris Ellis: Yeah. Great, great question. So a lot of our

00:37:39.570 --> 00:37:45.099 Chris Ellis: both our advisors, who are really fortunate to have and are

00:37:45.320 --> 00:38:12.000 Chris Ellis: immediate team came from our own networks. And so, typically, for the most part, this is not universally true, but for the most part These are folks who we've worked with in the past, who we have a relationship with in some way, or some one of us knows them, and that makes it a lot easier to calibrate and have a frame of reference. But we also reach out to people kind of cold outside of our network. And when I think about my

00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:29.390 Chris Ellis: actual co-founder relationship without we were in different networks, and I had actually come across this profile, and I thought it was really fascinating. And it's stripe and human it found in multiple companies. And so I called out, pounded him, asking to talk about it, you know, Apis and health care, and

00:38:29.390 --> 00:38:53.529 Chris Ellis: we had an instant connection. And so a lot of our you know a a lot of our advisors. Some of our advisors and team are kind of looking for special people who have, like a special background, who we reach out to and try to bring into the fold. There's no formula for this, and as the company gets larger you have to create new strategies to to accomplish that, but in our case, having that

00:38:53.530 --> 00:39:01.499 Chris Ellis: great network, and then being unafraid to reach out to folks who really seem remarkable, has been great for us so far

00:39:01.970 --> 00:39:04.130 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and

00:39:04.170 --> 00:39:10.989 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: sorry. Oh, no, no problem. I was just gonna say that upon meeting these other people that would join

00:39:11.010 --> 00:39:19.490 Frank R. Harrison: you with thatch and really show their desire and passion to help you create a a revolutionary health care ecosystem.

00:39:19.600 --> 00:39:34.600 Frank R. Harrison: there's a little bit of not just profiling from the perspective of what their history has been with companies and startups, and where else they worked, or when they went to school. But health care is very intangible, so, as a result.

00:39:34.940 --> 00:39:36.809 Frank R. Harrison: The patient is the product.

00:39:36.980 --> 00:39:54.510 Frank R. Harrison: and the product extensions are helping to service the patient when the need is there. So the mindset of the people you have at that, I'm sure, are screens for their sense of whether it's ethic responsibility or moral responsibility, or even social responsibility. Would that be fair to say?

00:39:55.760 --> 00:39:58.739 Chris Ellis: Absolutely a hundred percent. And

00:39:58.790 --> 00:40:10.230 Chris Ellis: to your point. you know, I I think traditionally. a lot of businesses or founders have kind of had the 9 side of.

00:40:10.270 --> 00:40:21.310 Chris Ellis: I'm going to build this great business, create a lot of enterprise value. And then later in life I'll donate this to charity, or I'll you know, give. And I. And I think that's

00:40:21.620 --> 00:40:25.020 Chris Ellis: yeah. And I. And I think that's amazing. But

00:40:25.030 --> 00:40:40.170 Chris Ellis: I like to think about, how can we tie the economic model of the business to the social outcome that you're targeting. And in our case, when we're growing and generating profit, etc., and reinvesting that it's the business. We're really reinvesting in

00:40:40.170 --> 00:40:51.179 Chris Ellis: one. You know, the member experience the patient experience, because if the patient or the consumer doesn't enjoy the experience, then we're not going to be able to grow. But then, second.

00:40:51.180 --> 00:41:10.230 Chris Ellis: really believing in this mission that health insurance and health choices should be made by the individual and not by the company and by moving the field in the direction of more individualized personalized decisions. We think that we can change the way health care works for the better. And so time is back to the intangibles.

00:41:10.430 --> 00:41:37.129 Chris Ellis: You know the team that you have is kind of very difficult to put a ascribe a a perfect number to. And I talk up a lot about like, why it's so important in in our case, having that mission to improve the healthcare system to tire economic model to those outcomes that we're targeting ends up recruiting a lot of people who really are inspired and want to use their powers for good, and it's hard to quantify

00:41:37.160 --> 00:41:42.289 Chris Ellis: how that mission kind of permeating. You know your everyday work life

00:41:42.420 --> 00:42:00.820 Chris Ellis: impacts your productivity or the likelihood that we can recruit the best people. But in our case I can say very confidently that, having a good mission, having the right mission has made a huge impact on the calendar of talent we've been able to recruit and the alignment of everyone towards our mission. So I can't be prouder of our team.

00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:05.650 Frank R. Harrison: Well, absolutely. And I just one question before I know we're about to take a break soon.

00:42:06.040 --> 00:42:19.109 Frank R. Harrison: Is it safe to say that of the other individuals in your team, you know, yesterday I showed the picture of your whole team right there in front of a a nice getaway place that I think you guys went on a trip or something like that.

00:42:19.250 --> 00:42:40.940 Frank R. Harrison: to each of them. Have a health care story of their own that they're trying to recover from in that made them show you the passion that they can contribute to to that. I mean, whether it's a personal health, care, story, or loss of a parent, or sibling or spouse, or maybe victims of Covid. I mean, I'm kind of curious to know if you have that kind of group along in your organization.

00:42:41.080 --> 00:42:42.790 Chris Ellis: Yeah, I mean.

00:42:43.030 --> 00:42:58.790 Chris Ellis: yes, it's the short answer. And the longer answer, it's just that health care is something that impacts all of us, and whether it impacts our loved ones, whether it's something we struggle with ourselves, and if it hasn't impacted us to a gigantic degree. Yeah, that one day will.

00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:10.700 Chris Ellis: And it's something that I think everyone recognizes is like cornerstone of a good life and and a good society. And so for that reason, I think people can get excited about it from any walk of life.

00:43:11.070 --> 00:43:25.010 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I mean, at the same time, in a, in a situation where you're the employer, you you you! You shouldn't know about the the very self-care of your employees. So so you gotta be really careful there at the same time. Right.

00:43:25.090 --> 00:43:26.910 Chris Ellis: I'm sure. Very sure.

00:43:26.990 --> 00:43:44.310 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But but but you know this is not something I prepared you for, but I want to see what your reaction is. If you feel free to punt, if it's if it's not comfortable, or if you don't want to talk about it, But you know you have a mission. You gather the people you build this thing, you know.

00:43:44.710 --> 00:43:57.089 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: it's very easy to want to gobble you up. I could see I could see a you know, a nice big healthcare company coming in and saying, Oh, yeah, yeah, that's gonna be our. We're we're, gonna you know, we'll acquire you, you can cash out.

00:43:57.180 --> 00:44:11.720 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So how? How do you you know? Are are you building with that in mind? Are you building to resist that? How do you deal with with with with that? Because it could steer you far afield from your mission. Ultimately, if you are babbled up somehow.

00:44:12.110 --> 00:44:35.430 Chris Ellis: Right? Great question. Yeah. So, and this kind of kind of comes back to the soul of the business and the team, the founding team and and perhaps the personality of the founders where I'm quite stubborn, and my belief the the best way to get the greatest social outcome is for the team to remain under the control of the founding company

00:44:35.430 --> 00:45:04.840 Chris Ellis: the founding team members. and in our case, we're building to create the greatest possible company and by extension the greatest outcome. And I don't personally believe that. you know, I I get disclaimer. We're we're very early on and and still figuring things out. But our kind of core philosophy is that the best way to make that outcome is to retain, control ourselves and to bring it to fruition ourselves.

00:45:05.160 --> 00:45:10.000 Frank R. Harrison: Right? Thanks so much. We're going to go to a break and we'll be back shortly.

00:45:10.630 --> 00:45:11.430 Okay.

00:47:15.130 --> 00:47:21.290 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Welcome back for our last segment of in tangify on talk radio. Nyc.

00:47:21.520 --> 00:47:33.660 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I'm Matthew as well. Your hosts. My guests are Chris Ellis, co-founder of Batch and Frank R. Harrison, the host of Frank about health and my health care correspondent.

00:47:34.250 --> 00:47:39.920 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Chris. Before the break we were chatting a little bit about this idea of

00:47:40.380 --> 00:47:42.240 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: being acquired.

00:47:42.340 --> 00:47:57.730 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And you know, you always have to be open to the possibility. But you know but there are. There are a lot of entrepreneurs, I mean, they they're entrepreneurs out there that are like, okay, this is my vision. This is what I want to go. Do I want to build it? And I'm the best one to do it.

00:47:58.140 --> 00:47:59.600 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: That's what I'm trying to build.

00:48:00.410 --> 00:48:05.439 I I've come across lots of other entrepreneurs that are like, I've got this really cool idea.

00:48:05.520 --> 00:48:11.829 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And I want to, just, you know, get it up running and and and get acquired and catch out.

00:48:12.270 --> 00:48:15.119 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And I I wonder you know

00:48:15.190 --> 00:48:20.139 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: what kind of view you have of that type of entrepreneur and what you might

00:48:20.670 --> 00:48:24.819 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: advise someone who who sort of in it for that purpose.

00:48:26.460 --> 00:48:28.579 Chris Ellis: For sure, the

00:48:28.890 --> 00:48:46.369 Chris Ellis: regardless of whether you're building to sell or you're building type, you or or you just want to own a small business. I I think there's like a small set of raw ingredients that go into building a business, and there's the soul of the business. When you talk a lot about like the co-founder of the market. The idea there's also like the plan.

00:48:46.380 --> 00:48:59.339 Chris Ellis: And so I think about that. It's like the blueprints of the health, the business model. How are you gonna make money? What's your ideal customer profile? What kind of capital you're gonna raise? What kind of advisors do you have the legal structure you set your company up with.

00:48:59.500 --> 00:49:10.590 Chris Ellis: and then the third is the execution, which is where the people that you hire you know. What does the product look like out of the gate? how do you identify a repeatable go to market.

00:49:10.690 --> 00:49:18.799 Chris Ellis: And that's kind of like, okay, now it's time to go build that house and it. And I think a lot of folks who who are kind of

00:49:19.200 --> 00:49:26.840 Chris Ellis: it, not realizing that it's something that's going to take many years to get an outcome, whether it's to be sold or

00:49:27.060 --> 00:49:53.820 Chris Ellis: to to get to Ipo. sometimes skip this up to like the planning, and you you wouldn't necessarily want to go and like, construct your house without a blueprint, and be like, oh, there's a bricks over here, and I think you know, maybe you would. And so I think if you're looking to build to sell, there are some characteristics that you might want to think about which are like lowering the up, lowering the upfront investment required to get to a basic

00:49:53.820 --> 00:50:10.689 Chris Ellis: version of the product. I think you can be more flexible on the total size of the market, where you don't necessarily need to target that 1 billion dollar plus market opportunity that typically venture capitalists require, you might think about a different

00:50:10.720 --> 00:50:28.409 Chris Ellis: legal structure. in terms of whether you want to be a C or an Llc. There's a lot of in individual factors that you. have to take into consideration. If you want to build an enduring company. that if you're targeting to build to sell, you can be more flexible on. And

00:50:28.430 --> 00:50:57.680 Chris Ellis: the advantage of that really is like, there's actually far more ideas that are not venture backable and can be built to sell, or maybe our venture backable and still could be built to sell. But the things that you're optimizing for are a little bit different. I think if the goal is to sell. You want to retain as much equity in the business as you can. You want to have a lower upfront investment to show the proof of concept. You want to have clear, repeatable, go to market strategy that can get you to a smaller

00:50:58.080 --> 00:51:06.579 Chris Ellis: total revenue annually. and I think ultimately, you know, it requires a lot to

00:51:06.640 --> 00:51:22.049 Chris Ellis: want to take it all the way, and and for some folks it's just more fun to be in that early kind of ideation, phase and I I don't think there's one way is better than the other, but for, regardless of the path that when one takes, I think.

00:51:22.300 --> 00:51:46.780 Chris Ellis: making sure to spend that time understanding that the sole of the business, the planning, and the execution all need to have equal weight, and you can't jump straight into execution just because you think you're going to sell it, and you're only going to be at it for a couple of years, because you might be at a paidful experience, you know, being unprofitable and a few years in and kind of wishing you had got on a different initial trajectory.

00:51:48.580 --> 00:51:59.920 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But you you seem to understand at least a lot about some of the the factors that would be involved if if you were in that, you know, if you were in that mindset. And I I wonder how

00:51:59.980 --> 00:52:22.789 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: how difficult it is for you as as someone who doesn't seem to be, you know, to be planning planning things that way, to ignore those factors, or to or or to say that those factors don't align with with with my goals. you know, if you can see them kind of out of the corner of your eye like, why aren't I worrying about? You know this feature just in case

00:52:22.790 --> 00:52:31.139 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: that the to these, you know, do the factors that an entrepreneur who wants to build a business for execution and then to sell

00:52:31.230 --> 00:52:37.119 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: to those factors impact the vision of an entrepreneur who wants to

00:52:37.240 --> 00:52:38.700 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: build a business

00:52:39.180 --> 00:52:42.210 Chris Ellis:  yeah, absolutely, I think.

00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:50.820 Chris Ellis: you know a lot of the a lot of the core inputs ultimately end up being the same. And I think there are a lot of folks who

00:52:51.010 --> 00:52:58.689 Chris Ellis: thought that they were going to sell, but fell in love with what they were doing, and decided that they could never do that. And I think there are other folks who

00:52:58.810 --> 00:53:10.989 Chris Ellis: really kind of had a vision, and over time felt less, you know, tune into that vision, and realized that an exit might have made more sense. But as I think about kind of

00:53:11.150 --> 00:53:14.190 Chris Ellis: you know how how to make that judgment.

00:53:14.210 --> 00:53:39.450 Chris Ellis: I kind of come back to this idea of social responsibility. And what matters for me personally, which is, you know, it's really hard to get up every day and wake up and put in the hours and deal with all the nose and the punching interface of all that kind of stuff. If the only thing that you want is to get a financial outcome. And in my case, in in my view. I maybe my my take home message to folks who are thinking about starting a company is

00:53:39.520 --> 00:54:03.259 Chris Ellis: there's not enough startups. We're doing stuff in health care, I think. like, I said, one out of every $5 goes to health care in the Us. 50 years ago united health was a startup, and now it's one of the tenth largest companies in the world, and sort of have the benefit of, you know, moving quickly and not being encumbered by legacy technology. I think healthcare is just an area that

00:54:03.630 --> 00:54:12.390 Chris Ellis: pervades every aspect of people's lives, and that it's actually quite easy to get excited and passionate about solving a problem there.

00:54:12.390 --> 00:54:35.990 Chris Ellis: And you know, when you when you look at some of the great companies like electric vehicles or rocket ships or AI it it. It's not clear to me that any of those are, you know, infinitely more difficult than health care. And yet, you see, a lot of talented people go into those areas. And so I don't think health care does a great job of promoting itself as a as a sector, and I think it has a

00:54:35.990 --> 00:54:38.580 reputation for being confusing and

00:54:38.580 --> 00:54:53.370 Chris Ellis: regulatory, you know, having a complex regulatory environment. But I think for a founder who's thinking about how to wake up every day and achieve a mission building and health care is a really good way to get excited and to be motivated over the long term.

00:54:53.910 --> 00:55:23.009 Frank R. Harrison: I also want to add that in a lot of health care of startups, whether they're pharmacy companies or technology companies and help tech or whatever I notice, it's no longer the 5 year exit that most non health care oriented businesses is probably 10 to 15 years. If there is going to be an exit at all, or like what Matt said earlier could be gobbled up by an insurance company or another health care related organization. so I think, in order for what everything you just said, Chris, which I think is on point.

00:55:23.010 --> 00:55:47.230 Frank R. Harrison: I think the health careare entrepreneur has to be thinking more, not just about the social responsibility factor, as you indicated. But what is the social return on the investment from the investor side as well? If you did put up your own money because health care is still about people. And it's about relationships. It's not like you're opening and closing a restaurant or some other business that

00:55:47.330 --> 00:55:57.020 Frank R. Harrison: you know, it doesn't really have that human connection. The way that health care can always, like, you say, permeate people's lives. So I think

00:55:57.070 --> 00:56:03.930 Frank R. Harrison: people who were health care entrepreneurs out there should be in it for the long haul.

00:56:04.290 --> 00:56:06.139 Chris Ellis: That would be my!

00:56:06.710 --> 00:56:24.090 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Well, we're just about out of time. I'd like to ask. You know what what your take home message is, if it's different from from the one we just we just heard before. I give you any opportunity to do that, but very quickly, that you know, we've talked about a lot of different intangibles here.

00:56:24.090 --> 00:56:47.660 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: iteration and pivoting the people on your team, the market research, the idea planning the mission, the soul of the business, the blueprint being honest with yourself and a number of others. And I really appreciate having you here to today to share so many different aspects of of of what you've done in your business and being dynamic, you know. It seems to be that a another theme?

00:56:47.670 --> 00:57:08.879 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: with that, let me remind people you could hear you can, just to frank about health on Thursday evenings at 5 Pm. Eastern, and you can hear in tangify on Fridays at noon, Eastern on talk radio dot, Nyc Linkedin Twitter Facebook and twitch TV

00:57:08.910 --> 00:57:13.660 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but, Chris, final word for the wise, anything you'd like to share.

00:57:14.600 --> 00:57:19.039 Chris Ellis: Yeah, absolutely. you know, from an intangible perspective.

00:57:19.090 --> 00:57:43.349 Chris Ellis: I the advice I would give is, don't. Don't fall in love with your idea, but follow up with the people that you work with, and you know, in a Platonic way, but Have the the right people around the table is so much more important than that kind of insight that strikes you in the shower, and it's ultimately the people you'll build that bond with over the long term that gets you to where you want to go.

00:57:44.110 --> 00:57:49.219 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I think that's a perfect, and I'm very glad to have had you people on this podcast

00:57:49.270 --> 00:57:54.340 Frank R. Harrison: thanks so much. We see you next time

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