Friday, June 23, 2023
Facebook Live Video from 2023/06/23 - Trademarks & Glassblowing

Facebook Live Video from 2023/06/23 - Trademarks & Glassblowing


2023/06/23 - Trademarks & Glassblowing

[NEW EPISODE] The Bottom Line: Health as the Ultimate Intangible

Fridays 12:00pm - 1:00pm (EDT)                              


Understanding of the impact of changes in law on business decisions.


Laura Winston discusses her seemingly varied background as a trademark attorney, professor, and amateur glassblower.  We consider the ebb and flow of law and its impact on business decisions.

KEY WORDS: #trademark #glassblowing

Tune in for this sensible conversation at

Show Notes

Segment  1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4


00:00:21.040 --> 00:00:56.499 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq:  hello and welcome to in tang. If I am your host, matthew as well tangifies a podcast where we talk about the intangible aspects of business, largely focused on entrepreneurs and startups, who have all sorts of interesting issues and concerns. as they work towards building their businesses and the intangible aspects include, you know, things like what I do, which is intellectual property law?

00:00:56.520 --> 00:01:00.589 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: in which case we see to protect what people create.

00:01:00.740 --> 00:01:16.219 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But but also many other aspects of business, such as communication or or you know, social consciousness, or other things of that nature that really are important to forming a business and building a business.

00:01:16.570 --> 00:01:30.399 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: My guest today is Laura Winston. Laura Winston is my partner at off at Kerman, where we both practice intellectual property law, and in fact, she leads the intellectual property practice group in my firm.

00:01:30.960 --> 00:01:35.279 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But Laura has some other parts of her life as well.

00:01:35.510 --> 00:01:37.240 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so welcome, Laura.

00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:41.130 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: can you come off mute and and say hello to our guests real quick?

00:01:43.250 --> 00:01:47.290 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: Hi, Matthew! It's great to be here. Thank you so much for having me today.

00:01:47.600 --> 00:01:53.119 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Glad to have you. It says if I don't see you all the time. But

00:01:53.760 --> 00:02:03.119 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but, Laura, you know up a apart from your work, and I want to ask you a little bit about your your work as the practice group leader and as an intellectual property attorney.

00:02:03.150 --> 00:02:30.780 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: But I know you do some some other things. some in the realm of education, and some in the realm of of of art. And maybe could you share a little bit about about. You know who you are and what you do with our audience. Yeah, it'd be my pleasure. Thank you. So you mentioned education first, so I'll address that first I'll I'll clue you in on the fact that you and I do something together which is co-teach trademark law class

00:02:30.780 --> 00:02:43.549 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: at port of law school. And really I have you to thank for bringing me into that role as an adjunct professor. It's not something I was necessarily seeking out.

00:02:43.660 --> 00:02:54.900 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and there was a need for some assistance. And you asked if it was something I'd be interested in. And after thinking about it a little bit, didn't take me long to say yes.

00:02:55.090 --> 00:03:07.919 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: that does sound like something I I would like to do, and we completed our first semester in the fall of 22, and very much looking forward to doing it again this fall.

00:03:08.330 --> 00:03:34.560 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah, that that aspect also something you are naturally good at right? I mean, I think it's, you know, in our field we talk to small businesses and entrepreneurs and all different types of clients all the time about their legal issues. And it's really sort of a similar thing to talk to students who are learning about the law and help them understand in the same way we need our clients to understand what it is we do and

00:03:34.880 --> 00:03:36.500 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: why they need to worry about it.

00:03:36.570 --> 00:03:46.190 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: Yes, and I remember you pointing that out to me when I said, Well, I never been a teacher before. You kind of pointed out to me that that yes, I have been, and

00:03:46.390 --> 00:04:09.569 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: At the risk of blowing my own horn. I have been told that I am good at explaining things. and I think it's one of the reasons why. I I've had a a a career that's lasted a long. It has in this field, working with startups and entrepreneurs. And yes, I I think it it. It was the right fit at a good time.

00:04:10.390 --> 00:04:26.779 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So then, before you tell us a little bit about your artistic endeavors, maybe you could tell us a little bit about your legal endeavors. How'd you get into this field? you know. what's it like being the the leader of a of a group of intellectual property attorneys. And how? How? How is it all that work for you?

00:04:27.210 --> 00:04:36.520 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: Well, I'll try not to lay out the whole roadmap of my career, because I think that that would exceed the time that we have on this podcast but

00:04:36.690 --> 00:04:56.210 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: when I went to a law school. I was fresh out of undergrad, and I had been a a child development major in undergrad, with a goal of getting involved either in family law or a a child advocacy. When I graduated from law school.

00:04:56.250 --> 00:05:07.689 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: went to a law firm that didn't have those practice areas, at least not initially while I was there. and I went in as a a general litigation associate.

00:05:08.050 --> 00:05:22.809 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and the the firm had some patent Anna and trademark lawyers, and one of the patent lawyers came to me one day, and as the most junior person in the office, he was looking for somebody to assist him with his work.

00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:38.170 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and said, How you like to work on a trademark application. And you know my first question as well, What is that? And and once it was told to me and explained to me I I worked on it He was great mentor. I still remember him fondly.

00:05:38.200 --> 00:05:52.310 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and discovered that I really like this practice area took on more and more work in that area and ended up leading to me building a career about it, and coming back to the family law for one moment.

00:05:52.660 --> 00:06:02.650 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: We did have a a partner join our firm back then who did family law? And when I expressed an interest I worked on a couple of assignments and

00:06:02.790 --> 00:06:13.759 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: realized that I liked IP a lot better than family law. So the accidental path that my career took I think was was the right one for me.

00:06:14.730 --> 00:06:38.380 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I always love the the stories and particularly of of people I do in our field who I've met and had these other other parts of their lives that somehow wove into what they do now. And And speaking of that, I I I wanted to to to remind you to tell us a little bit about your artistic endeavors, and then, maybe how they will we even to what you do now.

00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:59.230 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: So so historically, I I have not been an artist, but I was always fascinated with glass art, and in 2,016. I took a weekend class at A, A, a public access glass blowing studio called Urban Glass. It's located in Brooklyn. Shout out to them. It's a wonderful place.

00:06:59.330 --> 00:07:09.740 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and basically got me hooked. And since then I've been trying to learn as much as I can about the craft

00:07:09.790 --> 00:07:22.530 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: I've taken anywhere from one in 2 day workshops to a few intensive 6 day courses at the courting museum of glass up in the morning. New York.

00:07:22.540 --> 00:07:35.329 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: where we're basically in the studio all day long to, except for some lunch and dinner breaks, and maybe a little evening time off and just, you know, trying to improve, get better.

00:07:35.440 --> 00:08:04.430 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: And it's really it's been a hobby for me, and but I do have aspirations of learning more becoming more competent. And maybe eventually, you know, trying to sell some some work I have haven't done that yet, but it is a goal of mine, and just to show what I've managed to accomplish, I'm just showing a couple of phases that I made, which is an example of the types of things that I like to do.

00:08:04.540 --> 00:08:13.270 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: They're beautiful. They're just missing some flowers.

00:08:14.360 --> 00:08:23.189 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So So how do you tie in this love for for for glass flowing, and class art

00:08:23.230 --> 00:08:26.129 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: with what you do every day.

00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:37.900 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: So there are 2 things I like to talk about trademarks and glass and I thought you know, it might be nice to try to combine these at some point. And

00:08:37.929 --> 00:08:46.909 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: there is a a professional association called the Glass Art Society, that has annual conferences.

00:08:46.930 --> 00:08:53.559 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and they were looking for a discussion proposals, topic proposals for their conference

00:08:53.590 --> 00:08:57.640 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: which took place a couple of weeks ago in Detroit.

00:08:57.880 --> 00:09:06.410 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: And I pitched the idea of an IP presentation geared towards people who are working in the glass field.

00:09:06.430 --> 00:09:14.020 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: Whether it's artists, gallery owners, studio owners, suppliers of materials and tools.

00:09:14.140 --> 00:09:33.660 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and the Glass Art Society took my idea and expanded it into a full fledged panel that they titled legal toolkit for glass artists and we presented on a there were 3 of us. One of them is another glass blowing lawyer like I am. And we presented on a variety of

00:09:33.690 --> 00:09:43.660 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: legal topics of interest to glass blowers, not just IP, but contract basics and employment law issues.

00:09:43.700 --> 00:09:51.410 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: And our panel was really well attended with about 40 attendees and

00:09:51.690 --> 00:10:12.690 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: Even. Not only were we introduced by the winner of season. 3 of the Netflix show blown away, which is a glass blowing competition show so little star served from that. But we were. It was also attended by by people who were contestants on that show who wanted to see what we had to hear. So that was a lot of fun.

00:10:14.040 --> 00:10:30.690 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: So I don't know if you noticed, as you were, as you were explaining all that. But I disappeared. I got kicked out of my own. Podcast so I only caught the last, the last line or 2, but I have to go back and listen. It was an explanation of my time in Detroit, and how that came about.

00:10:30.800 --> 00:10:43.889 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I'll I'll have to go back on that. I'm I'm glad I was able to get back in. I got one of those, you know, computer automatically trying to restart right now.

00:10:44.230 --> 00:10:52.810 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So I did want to ask you sort of a glass blowing sort of a trademark question that I didn't prepare you for. But I'm sure you're going to be able to handle

00:10:52.950 --> 00:10:58.879 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: because you said you went to this school in corning New York, and

00:10:59.110 --> 00:11:09.560 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I have a recollection, just as a lay person of something called corningware is that is that related? Is that a trademark? What? What's the is this corning school of glass?

00:11:09.670 --> 00:11:31.159 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: The people who do courtingware exactly. Corning with it's It's a city in upstate New York. It's on the southern tier, and they are the come and the company corning. It's 10 different names over the years. I know. One time was porting glass works they were the company that developed a Pyrex brand.

00:11:31.250 --> 00:11:43.519 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: heat, heat, resistant glass and they also have made ceramic products over the years, and be because and also stupid, is located in Courtney, New York, which is a

00:11:43.560 --> 00:11:47.050 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: all time crystal where company

00:11:47.090 --> 00:11:59.839 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: so corning has a big glass history, and the corning Glass Company is still located there, and the museum and the studio are both affiliated with

00:12:00.030 --> 00:12:01.210 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: the company.

00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:05.690 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: So yeah, that there, that is, and it is. It's a it's a

00:12:05.740 --> 00:12:13.280 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: old and successful trademark morning. And and Pyrex, of course, subsist to this day as well.

00:12:13.640 --> 00:12:19.870 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: You of tying your your artistic passion with your

00:12:20.060 --> 00:12:38.109 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: okay. We're going to go to a break when we come back. want to talk a little bit about actual issues of intellectual property law that would impact the entrepreneurs and and startups in today's day and age. So you've been listening to and tangify on top radio, dot? Nyc, and we'll be right back.

00:14:50.150 --> 00:15:03.459 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: welcome back to in tang. If I'm your host, Mac, you as well. My guest is Laura Winston, Practice group leader in the Intellectual property group it off the Kerman, but also a professor and a glass blower.

00:15:03.570 --> 00:15:14.960 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and before the break Laura, we were talking a little bit about how these very seemingly very different fields have inter inter intersections, and

00:15:15.010 --> 00:15:38.580 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and sort of the joy sometimes in finding those whether it's because you go in take a class in in the home of a of a famous or a well known trademark having to do with glass or or it's you you go all the way to Detroit and give a and give a presentation on the legal aspects tied to the glass industry.

00:15:38.810 --> 00:15:47.510 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq:  You know one thing I wanted to ask you further about that before we get into some more trademark oriented stuff.

00:15:47.670 --> 00:15:50.670 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: is

00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:53.780 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, as you kind of

00:15:53.940 --> 00:16:00.469 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: started getting into the to the art of of glass blowing in in 2,016,

00:16:00.640 --> 00:16:05.340 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, you'd be sort of taking steps along the way to kind of

00:16:05.610 --> 00:16:27.060 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: learn and and become a part of that network, that industry, that culture. And and I wanted to see maybe if you could tie in a little bit about that at the education, the business, the networking, and the legal aspects that sort of have been there. Steps you've taken as an entrepreneur or a startup would do when they were entering a new industry.

00:16:27.060 --> 00:16:44.100 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: not accusing you of quitting your job and going to become a professional glass blower. But As someone who sort of delved into that. I I suspect you've had some exposure to those sorts of things. There are days when I wouldn't mind but for the most part I'm happy with the way things are right now.

00:16:44.180 --> 00:16:59.959 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: so it's funny. When when I started I was really just sort of interested in exploration, and I didn't really think about long term, and didn't think about the fact that there would be a a community around this.

00:17:00.030 --> 00:17:06.289 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: But, you know, after taking these classes, I you know I've met a lot of people.

00:17:06.380 --> 00:17:13.619 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: I've had the opportunity, besides what the starts from features I mentioned before about

00:17:13.710 --> 00:17:26.980 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: meeting people from the Netflix show. I've had the opportunity to take classes with like well known and talented glass blowers and I've also found that Instagram

00:17:27.170 --> 00:17:42.710 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: has been an incredible way to learn as much as I can about the field. I follow many, many different glass glass blowers and studios. some of them have followed me back, which is nice, and we interact

00:17:42.800 --> 00:17:47.080 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and just learning as much as I can about

00:17:47.840 --> 00:18:17.569 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: how people are doing this, the types of facilities they're working in. I've discovered that glass blowers tend to be tinker and do it yourself, or is just like many patentaries tend to be and you know they'll do things like build their own studios, including building their own furnaces and and other such things. That is something I don't picture myself ever doing, but it's just been part of the whole, you know, learning as much as I can

00:18:17.630 --> 00:18:27.510 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: about the the house and the wise of how people are doing this. and it's I I learned something new all the time. It's pretty amazing.

00:18:28.020 --> 00:18:41.399 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I think you put it really well when you, when you say that, you know there's a there's a community that you discovered, and and and and all these different aspects of the community, which were not the reason you got into it, but become sort of

00:18:41.500 --> 00:18:51.580 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: the the lifeblood of of of of that passion for for myself. it in different industries. I'm definitely not even a budding glass blower. But

00:18:51.770 --> 00:19:05.140 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but I've always been into technologies, and I've always been into food and beverage and wine and things of that nature. and and finding communities around those have also been similarly fulfilling.

00:19:05.260 --> 00:19:21.940 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I think, with regards to like technology or or really any kind of startup or entrepreneur looking to get into new areas or different areas. Then they've had in the past. it's helpful for them to really understand.

00:19:22.370 --> 00:19:33.069 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: how, how? What we do changes over time in the big picture. because, you know, you hear about, hey? So and so could do this.

00:19:33.100 --> 00:19:49.570 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And you rely on that. That happened 10 years ago. But there's sort of an ebb and flow of the way the law works in relation to protecting these businesses, and I thought we could have a little conversation about that aspect if you don't mind.

00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:51.850 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so

00:19:52.290 --> 00:20:15.140 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, I think, when we were talking in advance of of preparing for for today, we had a little discussion about this sort of ebb and flow. That kind of the law goes in phases where where things become easier to, to, to, to protect and to enforce, and and clients wanted to do that. And then.

00:20:15.350 --> 00:20:19.160 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, some years later. kind of, generally speaking.

00:20:19.210 --> 00:20:34.419 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: the same thing that you could have done would have been harder. Can you think of an example. perhaps in maybe the recent the recent cases that we've been reading about that that that might impact people different industries listening to us today.

00:20:34.470 --> 00:20:41.089 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: Yeah, I mean, I think a great example of that is the recent Supreme Court decision that pitted

00:20:41.340 --> 00:20:45.620 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: parity and first amendment rights against

00:20:45.650 --> 00:20:50.090 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: of the ability of a well known brand to protect itself

00:20:50.320 --> 00:21:01.379 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: from money making parity ventures and And some listeners may have heard about this case because it's one that's been in the mainstream news.

00:21:01.430 --> 00:21:05.450 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: Jack Daniels, which we all know

00:21:05.500 --> 00:21:11.500 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and which is a a brand that's beloved and you know, often emulated

00:21:12.090 --> 00:21:16.549 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: they took issue with a dog toy company

00:21:16.820 --> 00:21:20.819 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: called Vip products. That makes

00:21:21.150 --> 00:21:27.979 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman:  dog squeaky, 2 toys that are themed after famous liquor brands

00:21:28.060 --> 00:21:32.670 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and One of them was called bad spaniels

00:21:32.770 --> 00:21:53.119 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: it was really looked a lot. It was a rubber squeaky, 2 toy that looked a lot like a Jack Daniel's bottle, and the label was very reminiscent of the Jack Daniel's bottle, and it used Jack, besides being called bad spaniels. It used wording on the bottle that

00:21:53.280 --> 00:22:05.589 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: Harry, Jack Daniels, but was really talking defecation and scatological functions. that that dogs and and others do so.

00:22:06.230 --> 00:22:18.900 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: Jack Daniels didn't like this. They they sued the company. The company argued that they had the right to do this because it's a parity protected under the first amendment

00:22:19.130 --> 00:22:31.859 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: It went through the court system all the way up to the Supreme Court. and the interesting thing about trademark cases that make it to the Supreme Court is, they rarely break down on what we think of as

00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:40.109 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: typical pop political, ideological lines. So this case was actually a unanimous decision

00:22:40.310 --> 00:22:43.299 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: that. Found that

00:22:43.950 --> 00:22:59.070 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: that the jack that Jack Daniel's trademark was being infringed, and the fact that it was parody didn't matter when this company was so clearly claiming to have trademark rights in bad spaniels

00:22:59.100 --> 00:23:07.989 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and and was making money off of them. And so Jack Daniels was victorious, and when you mentioned the Evans flow

00:23:08.130 --> 00:23:23.679 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: of the way these things tend to go, there was a case. didn't make it up to the Supreme Court. I was maybe about 8 or 10 years ago. where Louis Vuitton, famous luxury brand that, you know, does not

00:23:24.360 --> 00:23:36.480 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: laugh off any attempts to make fun of them. They sued a company called Chewed Vit on that. Well, the brand was 2 weeks time making dog toys.

00:23:36.520 --> 00:23:46.910 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and and and they lost it didn't make it up the Supreme Court, as I said, but they lost at the lower court levels, and I

00:23:47.040 --> 00:23:48.620 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: believe that

00:23:48.740 --> 00:24:01.829 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: if that case we're brought today, Louis Vuitton would be more likely to win. So we do have a back and forth. It's always been a conflict between first amendment and trademark law. And right now the pendulum seems to have swung

00:24:01.850 --> 00:24:04.000 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: more towards the trademark side.

00:24:04.620 --> 00:24:21.939 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah, it's it's interesting to see how it how it's changed. I mean we, when, when we're growing up in our profession, we kind of go through some of the earlier cases we tend to rely on that. You know that that was our understanding, and then it kind of gets changed. As a result of how the law has changed or the interpretation of the court.

00:24:22.100 --> 00:24:34.630 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I I struggle with this idea, though, that you know, a an alcoholic beverage company. you know, would have a problem with a dog toy and a dog toy. That's not

00:24:35.290 --> 00:24:41.089 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: pretending to be the Alcoholic Beverage company, but rather, you know, sort of

00:24:41.120 --> 00:24:47.000 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: saying, Yeah, you make alcohol beverages. We're going to make 2 toys that look like alcohol beverages. Because it's funny.

00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:49.959 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Why is that infringing?

00:24:50.820 --> 00:25:00.909 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: I mean, what one of the arguments would be that Jack Daniels also makes other products besides, because it is such a beloved and story brand.

00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:04.539 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: They do sell a lot of ancillary products. Now

00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:22.819 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: the court even said Elena Kagan wrote the opinion. Justice Kagan, you know. She even said that that bad spaniels is not likely to that Jack Daniels would not be likely to make a bad spaniel style toy that makes fun of their own brand.

00:25:23.020 --> 00:25:29.359 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: But you know dog toys would be in their realm. One thing I want to clarify that, I said earlier, is

00:25:29.470 --> 00:25:31.040 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: The

00:25:31.710 --> 00:25:40.450 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: the case is still being considered. For whether this does actually cause the likelihood of confusion between the 2 brands.

00:25:42.090 --> 00:25:53.400 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: the the the defendant. the bad spaniels. People had argued that The case shouldn't even be brought against them, because it's so clearly a parity.

00:25:53.600 --> 00:25:56.679 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and what the court said is, no, it can be brought.

00:25:57.010 --> 00:26:06.170 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: But since the standard for trademark infringement is likelihood of confusion, it's now going to be back down to the law Reports to consider whether there is.

00:26:06.340 --> 00:26:10.219 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: And one of the things Justice Kagan pointed out was that

00:26:10.550 --> 00:26:18.490 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: the fact that it's parity may actually reduce the likelihood of confusion, but it still comes down to whether there is confusion or not.

00:26:18.780 --> 00:26:21.140 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: I thought that was an an interesting

00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:31.929 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: She almost even though she was finding in favor of Jack Daniel. She almost seemed to be taking a little favor position towards the bath spaniels. People. In that case.

00:26:32.190 --> 00:27:02.140 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: yeah, it's sometimes lost on non lawyers and even lawyers that the what's going on procedurally, really can have a lot of impact on on what's really being said and and what it really means. because it's very easy to sort of latch on to. Oh, okay. Now, dog toys are infringing to no dog toys could be infringing. It's up to you, you know. It's up to accord to the side. We're just not going to throw it out.

00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:23.369 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So that's that's a real important aspect. It came up in a in in another case recently. that's also had a lot of press, because it sort of revolved around. these non fungible tokens, the nfts and and this was the Meta burkins case that we had in in in in New York, where the

00:27:23.370 --> 00:27:35.549 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: sort of well known Birken bag was was created in a digital form as a metabolic, and with the name Meta burkins, and there's a lot of stuff in the media about.

00:27:35.670 --> 00:27:41.160 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Hey? Does that mean that? Well, first first of all, is this

00:27:41.260 --> 00:27:47.099 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: practically relevant. Are we going to allow this sort of thing? but also

00:27:47.930 --> 00:27:58.280 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq:  you know that, you know, is that infringement and a lot of stuff in the media as we're looking at the commercial aspect. Well, okay, he.

00:27:58.310 --> 00:28:05.769 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know he created this thing for the purpose of making the money from from the artistic from the artistic endeavor.

00:28:06.650 --> 00:28:19.849 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Big change from past precedent, past law in terms of how we interpret it, though, because we're talking about literally non tangible goods versus You know the the

00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:24.250 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: you know, the luxury bag itself, the big luxury bag.

00:28:24.630 --> 00:28:30.309 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: Some people not many, may own and

00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:40.549 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and in that case didn't involve parity. So that element was removed from there. It was really just we're going to have an nft designed after this bag.

00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:48.389 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But it was referring to the brand. What what it was it was it was intentionally to refer to the

00:28:48.900 --> 00:29:01.660 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so great. Well, we're going to go to a break. I'd love to come back and talk a little bit more about that case and and some other issues. When when we come back, you've been listening to and tangible on top radio, dot, Nyc, and we'll be right back.

00:31:05.260 --> 00:31:17.589 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: welcome back to intangify on talk radio that in my see, I'm your host, Matthew, as my guest is Laura Winston, my partner at off at Kerman Practice group leader, and the intellectual property of the law group. There.

00:31:17.690 --> 00:31:20.050 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Professor, and a glass blower.

00:31:20.130 --> 00:31:36.929 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And you know, when, when lawyers talk to lawyers as we're doing here, we we tend to geek out a little bit about cases and what's going on But you know we need to bring it back home for for the businesses for the startups that we you know that we regularly work with

00:31:37.040 --> 00:31:55.340 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so as much as I'm tempted to keep talking about the you know what happened in a couple of recent cases that are that that really is quite fascinating to us. We're gonna We're gonna try to think about this from a more practical bent, you know. So so Laura,

00:31:56.140 --> 00:31:58.320 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: with regards to.

00:31:58.410 --> 00:32:04.969 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: these types of cases, these sort of train changes in the ebb and flow of the law that we were talking about.

00:32:05.090 --> 00:32:07.180 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: how does that

00:32:07.210 --> 00:32:21.829 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: inform you and inform your clients, or how do you inform your clients? really to give them? You know the right advice as to whether they should do something or not, do something, how they should protect themselves.

00:32:22.300 --> 00:32:46.800 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: so thank you for asking. And one thing that I find pretty exciting about our practice is that when we're working with startups and entrepreneurs, as we both do, we tend to be at the forefront of what can sometimes be new issues, new technologies, new business ideas. I actually, I went to an event just last night.

00:32:46.890 --> 00:32:53.179 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: I have a client called Ping pod. Their business model

00:32:53.190 --> 00:32:58.000 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: is opening, ping, ping, pong parlors.

00:32:58.040 --> 00:33:13.000 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and they they've got several locations in the New York City area already, and they've expanded to other geographic locations as well. And what differentiates them from other such places is

00:33:13.070 --> 00:33:30.609 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: they are completely autonomous. You register through an app. You get an access key through the app and you can basically sign up and go play ping pod. Keep saying the company's name ping pong

00:33:30.780 --> 00:33:36.729 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: table, tennis. 24, 7 anytime you want.

00:33:36.740 --> 00:33:51.099 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: They they keep their overhead low by not having staffing, and they have excellent facilities. I I actually had a few balls last night with one of their coaches, who, I think, took it easy on me, but

00:33:51.420 --> 00:34:15.050 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: but I think I've got a pretty good serve, and I didn't do too badly, and I'm actually looking forward to going back and playing. So the idea that this is like a new business that hasn't been done before, I think. Really. it's not only exciting as a as a trademark lawyer, but like presents a lot of opportunities. And my goal when I work with with startups or entrepreneurs is to really just

00:34:15.370 --> 00:34:25.910 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: provide education. And this comes back to what we were talking about before. on on what they need to know, to protect themselves and position themselves

00:34:26.020 --> 00:34:31.489 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: for growth. brand development, protection of the rights.

00:34:31.580 --> 00:34:42.300 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: And it's actually one of my favorite parts of the practice is being able to work with a company in those early stages and and see the growth as happening.

00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:56.579 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah. And it's it's it's kind of our job to sort of think about what their new thing that they're doing is how to how to properly protected and give them advice which hopefully they they follow

00:34:56.580 --> 00:35:19.299 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But then we also have to put that into the context of the changing law. And so then we have to look at. Well, Gee! What's out there that existed before? You know. What's the what does it say? Is this, somehow going to be violating anybody anybody's rights, and how would we get around it under the way the law has? It has changed?

00:35:19.350 --> 00:35:31.319 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I don't. I don't think in the context of of your client and what you're doing. The pod ping pod. There's a there's that particular issue, as far as as I can tell.

00:35:31.520 --> 00:35:41.260 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but that's what we have to do. Right? We have to. We have to go. Okay, this is what you want to do. Here's how you can protect it. But also, here's

00:35:41.580 --> 00:35:43.999 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: what might be a problem

00:35:44.090 --> 00:35:47.769 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: under the law, under the prior rights. How do we

00:35:47.930 --> 00:35:57.030 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: get around that? The these potential problems that we've we've found? And how much do we want to invest in getting around those problems? Is that fair?

00:35:57.090 --> 00:36:12.600 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: Yeah, that that is very fair, because sometimes a client may. they have a trademark that they're interested in. But you know, if it looks like someone else is already using the same mark, they may be able to take some steps to

00:36:12.690 --> 00:36:16.859 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: try to avoid any risks with them, but if they.

00:36:17.040 --> 00:36:37.740 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: it's a question of whether they want to invest money into trying to get that done, or just choose a completely different name, and that can involve some additional costs. So there's always a lot of balancing that needs to be done and it it's I think it's a it's one of the reasons why working with startups can.

00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:41.160 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: really present that opportunity to make sure that

00:36:41.230 --> 00:36:45.929 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: you know the startups are following the right course early on.

00:36:46.590 --> 00:36:56.779 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I also was thinking, as you were speaking, that some of these ones that get into these big cases like the the like, the bad spaniels case, or the men of Perkins case we're talking about.

00:36:56.980 --> 00:36:59.850 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq:  they kind of.

00:37:00.700 --> 00:37:12.640 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I don't you know? Historically, they try to fly in the face of of the of the law and rely on the the the case. Law has it as it was, and I I think you know

00:37:12.830 --> 00:37:27.619 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: it's not always the case, but kind of courts and and and others see through that. They're sort of trying to I I can't think of the the word. They they're trying to monopolize the the the exploit. Try to exploit what the case law said before. So if you look at

00:37:27.690 --> 00:37:57.379 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: bad spaniels, and you were relying on chewy baton, you're thinking, oh, well, come on, it's the same kind of thing to 2 of the time could do it. Louis Vuitton, who who goes after everybody, wasn't really able to stop that. So these guys, Jack Daniel, shouldn't be able to complain about our bad spaniels. I think. Similarly with Meta Perkins, you know. there! There was this Rogers, the Gramaldi, about Ginger Rogers and Fred is there? case? Basically says, you know, if it's got this

00:37:57.380 --> 00:38:11.450 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: minimal amount of artistic relevance, then then we're gonna we're gonna look at it from a fair use, perspective. Look at the freedom of expression, and consider that much more greatly before we say that you're infringing. And

00:38:11.500 --> 00:38:24.569 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: then here comes the this this. Okay, well, fine. So we're gonna do this minimal amount of artistic expression make an nft, call it metaburg and and and sell it. We should be able to do that, because that's what

00:38:24.750 --> 00:38:30.849 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: the case law pretty much said. And then you're like that. You see the result? going the opposite direction. Right?

00:38:30.920 --> 00:38:37.880 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: actually, you know, we didn't exactly mean it the way you seem to have interpreted it

00:38:38.150 --> 00:39:02.060 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: exactly, and it doesn't necessarily mean that the old case is no longer good law. It just means that it's being interpreted in a way where your facts don't fit the the holding of the prior case. In fact, Justice Kagan made that pretty clear that they weren't. They weren't over ruling that, Rogers being from all the case, they were just carving at not even carving out like

00:39:02.180 --> 00:39:07.230 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: distinguishing the bad spaniel situation from that older case.

00:39:07.390 --> 00:39:13.129 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah, they they make it the prize, the bad Daniels. I think they? They really believed in their position.

00:39:14.330 --> 00:39:16.570 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I I I think honestly, I

00:39:16.660 --> 00:39:22.290 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: would have believed in their position to I I in fact, I did believe in the in their position. And

00:39:23.650 --> 00:39:27.949 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: hey, we could be wrong or no, that's how things go.

00:39:28.700 --> 00:39:44.110 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So when you're advising clients startups, entrepreneurs, small businesses that are growing and trying to protect themselves. And you're considering how the law changes and can be reinterpreted.

00:39:44.370 --> 00:39:57.629 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, I I think we've talked a little bit about aspects of new technologies coming into play. But I'd say there are other things that are sort of happening in our time trending issues. And

00:39:58.110 --> 00:40:21.130 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and you know, things like, you know, sustainability and environmentalism as an example, or cannabis, hot topic, a lot of people talking about when you start to see more and more of this kind of stuff coming out, as the law is changing and and evolving English to these. How you're in invite advising clients, you know, in the virtual Wild West that we don't know

00:40:21.230 --> 00:40:29.119 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: we don't know what the law will be. How do you deal with that?

00:40:29.250 --> 00:40:37.190 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: On the one hand, you know, sustainability which is so important has is is really at the forefront

00:40:37.350 --> 00:40:56.680 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: of what so many companies and organizations are thinking about, and the Us. Patent and trademark office, which is the the body that registers trademarks as well as examining and granting patents is is taking this very seriously, and is giving some some special perks to

00:40:56.680 --> 00:41:10.790 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: to innovators in that area. expedited examination of trademark applications. For one thing, They've even started an incentive awards program

00:41:10.810 --> 00:41:17.659 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: for people who are coming up with the the sustainability related businesses and brands.

00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:27.090 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman:  but then we have to worry about something like green washing, where, you know, a company is going to

00:41:27.220 --> 00:41:33.220 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: call something green. And it was actually some time, or or you know other ways that they're

00:41:33.850 --> 00:41:46.730 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman:  either intentionally misleading in what their product can do, or maybe holding out greater hope. And it's more aspirational than what it really is.

00:41:46.870 --> 00:41:51.869 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: And it was some time ago that the Uspto penetrate hardware was actually

00:41:51.980 --> 00:41:54.190 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: put out a special guide.

00:41:54.420 --> 00:42:03.769 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: for for for when something could be could have green. And it's trademark. And you know, unless it was actually referring to the color green.

00:42:04.180 --> 00:42:08.910 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: or, you know, did not clearly make it sound like it was a sustainable product.

00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:22.399 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: There would be some inquiry as to whether the product actually had sustainability features. at the same time, this is not directly a a trademark issue. But you know there's been some backlash

00:42:22.570 --> 00:42:39.420 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: on companies, motivations, and efforts to be involved in the sustainability. And there have been a number of shareholders to this, and even some regulations passed against the companies that are touting. Esg, the idea being that a

00:42:39.540 --> 00:42:49.399 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: you know, publicly held Company's goal is to make as much money for the shareholders as they can. and not not put these efforts into Esg.

00:42:49.420 --> 00:42:59.500 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and I think that's that's kind of a tricky area to navigate to which does not have direct impact on what we're doing right now. But

00:42:59.670 --> 00:43:04.439 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: everything in the business world is going to affect the trademark world in some way or other.

00:43:05.540 --> 00:43:20.120 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah. So so 2 kind of points. you know, if I can remember them. What? Why, you that you that sort of alluded to without stating You know this idea of the Patent and Trademark Office regulating

00:43:20.440 --> 00:43:39.929 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: what can be registered and protected under trademark law is different from this aspect of what people can say they're doing. And the truth of that right, that sect. In this aspect there's a there's some there's interaction between them. But

00:43:40.140 --> 00:43:48.379 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, I think there's, you know, among many business owners out there. It's really small business and entrepreneurs out there are a misperception

00:43:48.490 --> 00:43:49.350 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: that

00:43:49.680 --> 00:43:55.409 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: they need to register a mark that has green in it. And

00:43:55.650 --> 00:44:01.209 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and what that means is they're claiming they're trying to claim ownership of

00:44:01.260 --> 00:44:19.299 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: that term for themselves in relation to whatever goods or services they're offering. Not necessarily that they can't use, that the issue of the use falls outside of the realm of the United States Patent Trademark Office, and closer in the Federal Trade Commission.

00:44:19.300 --> 00:44:32.010 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: right and and and and related agencies that would address those for things. So it gets even conf confusing, because people come to us as a specialist on IP,

00:44:32.530 --> 00:44:45.770 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but there are can be issues that are not IP related in terms of what they're trying to do. I also briefly wanted to say that I want to go to a break. I'll give you an opportunity to respond after the break.

00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:49.540 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But I briefly also want to say that it's up also about

00:44:50.610 --> 00:44:53.890 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: governments trying to set up incentive structures.

00:44:54.110 --> 00:45:00.050 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And sometimes we set up these incentive structures. They're thinking that it's going to encourage

00:45:00.070 --> 00:45:13.630 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: the type of behavior that we that the government we would like to to have. We would like for sustainable businesses. and but sometimes these incentive structures backfire in the sense that

00:45:13.930 --> 00:45:23.780 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: it it encourages people to see how they can get the benefit of the incentive without necessarily putting in the investment to do the good that was desired of it.

00:45:24.570 --> 00:45:39.269 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So you've been listening to in tang. If I on top radio dot Nyc. When we come back, Laura will. I'll I'll ask you a little bit more about the incentive structure and and the trademark office role. But you can listen to intention by on top radio that Nyc and we will be right back.

00:47:41.390 --> 00:47:54.810 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: welcome back to in tang. If I on top radio, dot. Nyc, I'm your host, Matthew as well. My guest is Laura Woods, in the Practice group leader. It offered Kerman Intellectual Property practice group professor and a glass blower.

00:47:54.920 --> 00:48:19.899 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And Laura and I were talking a little bit before the break about the legal system. In a sense. how it impacts our advice for our clients, how we work with businesses small businesses, startups, entrepreneurs, and and how it impacts the advice we give them. And before the break we were talking a little bit about incentives and maybe opportunism

00:48:19.910 --> 00:48:25.089 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and maybe that's the right word to to use, because you know.

00:48:25.490 --> 00:48:34.260 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: trademark office sets up an ability to expedite your applications or an ability to ability to to to earn a reward.

00:48:34.380 --> 00:48:45.390 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: trying to encourage certain be businesses and behaviors to make it easier for them. And similarly, as we talked about earlier, the courts, you know.

00:48:45.560 --> 00:48:58.129 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: establish the law and and say, Look, we're going to recognize. This is okay, this type of use in the, for the, to the example example of that spaniels we were talking earlier. This type of use

00:48:58.170 --> 00:49:09.939 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: should be acceptable under this chewy vital in prior case law, because you're parodying and and people won't be confused, but then it changes it on you. Right?

00:49:10.110 --> 00:49:19.740 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq:  the the issue often when it when it when you see these changes happen, is often when people try to be opportunistic, based on what that law

00:49:19.750 --> 00:49:32.060 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: is. They look at what the trademark offices incentive program is. They look at what the last case said about that the particular issue, and then they try to rely on that. The opportunistic.

00:49:32.160 --> 00:49:38.359 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so, Laura, I'm wondering, if that has been your experience, or what has been your experience with

00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:46.370 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: sort of clients trying to ride the wave of of of opportunity that seems to be clear

00:49:46.650 --> 00:49:51.949 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: based on the case law, or what the trademark office has has regulated.

00:49:51.990 --> 00:50:17.220 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: Yeah. So I mean, I know that I definitely see clients writing the wave of what the current trend is, which is why I've you know, had a number of clients who are in the Nft space which you know most people didn't know what maybe couple of these tech people did. But a lot of people didn't know what nfts were just a few years ago. But I've had, you know, several

00:50:17.220 --> 00:50:28.530 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: clients who who were came to me looking for a trademark related help it for their their nft businesses or

00:50:28.820 --> 00:50:46.459 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: they're nst authentication type of businesses. so I've definitely seen wave writing in that way. I'm I'm fortunate to say that I have not seen anybody come to me with something like the sustainability product.

00:50:46.590 --> 00:51:06.789 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: just in that sort of green washing sense where you know? Sure they can claim it's sustainable. But it is it? Is it really so? At least not that I'm aware of so so I I haven't been down that road. I I I think it's a shame. If if people do that, just to get

00:51:07.020 --> 00:51:11.940 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: expedited by the uspto, or or just to get some kind of award.

00:51:12.370 --> 00:51:25.719 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and I mean because the goal is to serve the greater good The Uspto was doing something similar during the pandemic where they were expediting applications that were related to

00:51:25.830 --> 00:51:38.350 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: products and services that would address the the issues that we were facing during the pandemic and you know, I I I like to think that that didn't cause anybody to

00:51:39.010 --> 00:51:43.890 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: take to do anything that was, you know, untoward or inaccurate.

00:51:43.930 --> 00:51:46.979 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: But maybe I'm just too much of an optimist. I don't know.

00:51:48.420 --> 00:51:55.729 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I mean, I don't know if it's a so much about being opportunistic, optimistic, pessimistic. you know

00:51:55.970 --> 00:52:03.099 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: the the government and the and the courts set the the rules of the game. and

00:52:03.360 --> 00:52:05.709 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know we try to.

00:52:05.770 --> 00:52:09.490 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: we try to play the the game by the rules

00:52:09.570 --> 00:52:30.470 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: to accomplish our clients goals it doesn't necessarily mean I I mean, it's hard to hold that high, you know, high horse of the greater good when you're talking about. You know what a business is trying to accomplish, and maybe the mission of the business, and maybe that that may be part of what they're doing, but not necessarily for the IP that we're trying to protect.

00:52:31.680 --> 00:52:37.920 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But I I think that's fair. I mean, I think one would hope that people would do things for for for the right reasons.

00:52:37.940 --> 00:52:42.109 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: often The right reasons are the selfish reasons. And

00:52:42.580 --> 00:52:57.869 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know I just won't be able to go on record and say that I've helped anybody do something like that. And hopefully, I haven't. But usually it's and I have lots of environmental sustainability type of clients. usually it's, you know.

00:52:57.890 --> 00:53:06.030 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: they are really contributing in a great way to advancing society. And you feel like you're a part of something good when you're surfing them.

00:53:06.650 --> 00:53:16.040 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and even if it is a business, a for profit business designed to make money it the you know the the mission is still a good mission, so

00:53:16.230 --> 00:53:18.150 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: for for for sure, for sure.

00:53:18.450 --> 00:53:30.469 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Now we only have just a for a few minutes left before we have to end. And so I wanted to kind of circle back Laura and and and ask you, you know

00:53:30.540 --> 00:53:44.059 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: what kind of what's the take home message you would want the entrepreneurs startups, you know here, listening to you today, or listen to a future version of this recorded version of this, podcast what's the message, you'd like to leave with them.

00:53:44.570 --> 00:53:51.330 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: So we, I know you. This is this podcast is dedicated to IP, and it's important.

00:53:51.380 --> 00:54:00.009 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman:  start up an entrepreneur has a a lot of things to do, a lot of roads to navigate.

00:54:00.950 --> 00:54:07.770 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: IP should be something where it's it's a great idea to educate yourself as much as possible.

00:54:08.020 --> 00:54:12.990 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: But when it comes to making your decisions on how to protect yourself.

00:54:13.160 --> 00:54:17.620 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: there's a lot of diy options out there.

00:54:18.420 --> 00:54:25.360 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and the Us. Patent and Trademark office has a portal that makes it look deceptively simple.

00:54:25.430 --> 00:54:27.340 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: But really

00:54:28.110 --> 00:54:41.140 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: I know I've seen a lot of things go wrong. I know you have with people trying to say, register their own trademarks, and it it really is best to to consult with a professional who works in this space and does it

00:54:41.190 --> 00:54:42.730 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: day in and day out?

00:54:42.830 --> 00:54:50.679 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman:  to avoid. Sometimes sometimes problems can be fixed, and you and I have both seen a number of those

00:54:51.030 --> 00:54:53.329 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: other times.

00:54:53.700 --> 00:55:00.210 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: you have to just throw away the money you've already spent and start over so getting it right. The first time is key.

00:55:01.490 --> 00:55:18.979 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Sometimes it's it's very much not about what the the dollar figure of the work to be done is but more about the relationship with the person who's going to be doing that work. And you know there are. There are technologies and people out there who are

00:55:18.980 --> 00:55:36.090 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: lowering the barriers to entry to make it easier for people to go in and do things themselves, but in doing so make those mistakes which end up being more costly. versus, you know, having someone you trust, who you can, who can work with you and you work, you can work with.

00:55:36.210 --> 00:55:38.080 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: who can understand

00:55:38.260 --> 00:55:50.269 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: your financial limitations, your concerns, and work with you through a strategy and plan that fits your budget and your needs over time.

00:55:50.520 --> 00:56:10.830 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Great? Well, well, I really appreciate your joining us today. and you know, I will be seeing you in just a few days. But I thought maybe you could. you could share with the audience some news about what you and I will be doing in in just a few days to come next week.

00:56:10.990 --> 00:56:30.710 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: So on Thursday, June 29 at noon Eastern daylight time. Matthew and I will be hosting a webinar entitled The the Global State of Trademarks. Today. we're gonna touch on some of the issues we touched on today and and some other ones as well.

00:56:30.710 --> 00:56:45.870 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: we're going to talk about The gathering of trademark professionals in Singapore that I attended last month, and from their build on what are the hot and trending topics in the area of trademarks?

00:56:45.950 --> 00:56:53.619 Laura Winston - Offit Kurman: and feel free to contact Matthew or me for information about that, or how you can register.

00:56:54.510 --> 00:56:57.360 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Thanks so much. I very much look forward to the webinar

00:56:57.400 --> 00:57:12.120 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And for those of you tuning in. I hope you'll tune in again next week, and every Friday at noon, Eastern time for our next episode of in tang. If you're listening to in tangible on talk radio, dot. Nyc, have a great weekend.

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