Fridays 12:00pm - 1:00pm (EDT)
WHAT WILL THE AUDIENCE LEARN?
An understanding of how communication works or should work, and how and why it sometimes breaks down.
In this episode of Intangify, my guest Tony Gerdes, Director of Knowledge and Innovation at my firm, explains the mechanics of communication and how it can break down.
KEY WORDS: #Communication
Tune in for this sensible conversation at TalkRadio.nyc
This week, Matthew invites Tony Gerdes, Director of Knowledge and Innovation at his firm Offit Kurman. Tony is also co-author of a program called Aspire where they discuss communications, a very important intangible of business. He first was a theater arts major but found that the skills he learned early on would be useful for what he does now. He mentions being asked to work with his partner at the firm to create a leadership development program (Aspire). When it came to what skills and techniques would be taught to future leaders of the firm, they decided to start with communication as the foundation. Matthew adds that communication is vital to what they do everyday from communicating via emails or phone calls with clientele, courts, officials or vendors. This also extends beyond their practice into any business. Tony also speaks with Matthew about his data and how he knows what is working within the program based on results such as promotions, successful use of skills through different mediums and more. He also discusses the importance of the message that entrepreneurs send to their customers and how it is done.
Tony shares his slides on the livestream and speaks about what goes into the Aspire program. Tony and his partner created a system of communications by first envisioning the process of what happens during it. He first talks about the G2 Communication Model which includes non verbal communications that happen beforehand; a message you want to say. This model also includes your filter which influences how you speak and think, the medium (this can have more weight than the message itself), the recipient’s filter, and the recipient themselves (internal dialog). With these points, Tony also mentioned physical nonverbal communication as well. Matthew gives his thoughts on the model and in the process is doing the communication model while speaking with Tony.
Tony talks about the process of the G2 Model when it comes to the receiving end of the message being more than one person. The message he says doesn't change unless he knows more about his recipients. If he knows the intended audience, he says then he can tailor his message more specifically so that his message can trigger a certain response. They use their example of communication and how the medium of using zoom can affect how they are sharing their messages. Matthew mentions using body language and keeping the screen interesting in their case. He also mentions the effect this has with different generations along with the mediums that are easier to use when understanding each person better. A phone call for example can be faster and interactive while an email can take longer.
Tony and Matthew continue their discussion of the G2 Communication model and how messages may not be understood or received well based on whether active listening is involved. Tony says that active listening challenges you to think about the words and the “ball of clay” as it's coming in to see if you understand before you get to think about your response. He also speaks about the person rolling the clay (the speaker or messenger) and how they communicate can also help in whether someone understands them. He gives an example of a person delegating a project. Instead of “do you have any questions?” Tony says you can maybe ask “So what do you see as your next steps?” or “how does this project compare to other ones that you’ve done?” it takes the person to the next level of thinking where they can demonstrate a better level of understanding. Tony says that communication skills can be taught. This was a topic that has been debated even with people at their firm. He says it's about creating awareness and development. These skills can end up being useful personally and improves teams overall.
00:00:31.960 --> 00:00:36.740 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Hi there, and welcome to intangify. I'm your host, Matthew as well.
00:00:36.850 --> 00:00:54.650 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and I am an intellectual property attorney at the firm of off at Kerman. intellectual property is one form of intangible. That's valuable for businesses. But this podcast is really about intangibles in a more broader sense.
00:00:55.000 --> 00:01:08.000 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So I've invited a guest today from my firm Mr. Tony Gerties and Tony is the director of knowledge and innovation in my firm.
00:01:08.070 --> 00:01:21.220 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and he is also a co-author of a program called Aspire, where we talk about communications a very important and tangible for business. So welcome, Tony.
00:01:21.390 --> 00:01:23.450 Tony Gerdes: Oh, thank you, Matthew, I'm glad to be here.
00:01:24.040 --> 00:01:25.260 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Glad to have you
00:01:25.420 --> 00:01:32.929 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so, Tony. Tell us a little bit about your background and your role within our locker.
00:01:33.430 --> 00:01:51.700 Tony Gerdes: Certainly, my background is is a little unique for a law firm. I was actually a theater arts, major who found my way into legal but I have found that the skills that I learned early on and really have helped and prepared me in a lot of ways to handle the job that I'm doing now.
00:01:52.290 --> 00:01:55.020 Tony Gerdes: I started at the firm as a trainer.
00:01:55.150 --> 00:02:07.049 Tony Gerdes: and my role has evolved somewhat so that we are not only looking at technical training, how to use the software that the firm provides, and so forth. But we started to dabble into professional development.
00:02:07.420 --> 00:02:14.870 Tony Gerdes: And that's led me to to work with my partner, Desi, right, grow and develop our spider program.
00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:19.479 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So what exactly, is your aspire program?
00:02:20.810 --> 00:02:31.830 Tony Gerdes: So interesting, interesting story behind that we were tasked with creating a leadership development program that wasn't actually called a leadership development program.
00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:47.440 Tony Gerdes: There were some folks who thought, Well, no, no, leaders are not trained. They're either born or a leader or not. So the idea of of saying we offer a leadership development program was was not exactly popular among everybody.
00:02:47.590 --> 00:02:51.950 Tony Gerdes: And so when we thought about it and thought what
00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:54.280 Tony Gerdes: skills, what
00:02:55.390 --> 00:03:00.000 Tony Gerdes: techniques and so forth, would need to be taught in order to develop
00:03:00.030 --> 00:03:01.910 Tony Gerdes: future leaders for the firm
00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:06.739 Tony Gerdes: we settled on communication. We thought it has to start there. That's the foundation.
00:03:06.760 --> 00:03:16.539 Tony Gerdes: And whether it's communicating with attorneys like in our firm working with clients working with vendors. Communication
00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:20.510 Tony Gerdes: is the the central point for developing leadership.
00:03:21.430 --> 00:03:28.500 Tony Gerdes: The next part that's fine. The next part is really. How, then, do you teach communication.
00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:45.139 Tony Gerdes: And that's where we we fumbled for a bit, thinking, what are other people doing? How? How else is communication taught? We've all been part of good communication systems and bad communications. And I think we all realize when communication goes awry.
00:03:45.540 --> 00:03:53.720 Tony Gerdes: But we needed a structure for how to teach. according to the the best practices we found from business and psychology
00:03:55.020 --> 00:03:57.660 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and communication is.
00:03:57.670 --> 00:04:15.280 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, so vital to what we do every day. I I mean, the vast majority of our day is spent communicating, either, you know, communicating via emails or telephone calls, or or video conferencing with with clientele or vendors, as you said.
00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:33.740 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: or with with courts. And you know, being persuasive to, you know, offices or courts, government officials, or even, you know, people on the other side of things. So it's a regular part of our lives in law practice. But of course it extends way beyond
00:04:33.750 --> 00:04:46.770 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: law practice to to to businesses to to any business, because even if you're a solo entrepreneur out of your out of your garage and paying out of pocket.
00:04:47.320 --> 00:04:58.209 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you have a message to send. You have people to communicate with in order to build your business and to grow your business and being effective in communications.
00:04:58.460 --> 00:05:00.320 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: It's the core of that right
00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:01.620 Tony Gerdes: exactly.
00:05:01.660 --> 00:05:04.030 Tony Gerdes: exactly, especially for that that
00:05:04.090 --> 00:05:08.499 Tony Gerdes: entrepreneur working out of the garage because you are the voice
00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:12.050 Tony Gerdes: for for your your company and the voice for your company's future.
00:05:12.250 --> 00:05:22.249 Tony Gerdes: So, being able to to send that message, and what we would call an agenda to be able to present that clearly to the world is of utmost importance.
00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:37.890 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So you know you you come from a a theatrical Art Arts background. You are a trainer and educator. And you were tasked with with this, with this, you know.
00:05:37.940 --> 00:05:42.220 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: requests develop a leadership program that you don't call a leadership program.
00:05:42.580 --> 00:05:47.330 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: how do you know it works?
00:05:49.460 --> 00:06:02.359 Tony Gerdes: Good question. We do have have some data part of what we part of what we want to do was to develop a system. Because, again, if it's just my my partner and I
00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:23.879 Tony Gerdes: doing classes because we think we're great presenters. We think we're great communicators, you know. If we just, you know, rub off on people that will naturally make them all better. Right? we knew that that wasn't going to work. As you know, Matthew, we live in a very data driven firm. we want to see the metrics. We want to know what works and be able to replicate success based on what works.
00:06:24.030 --> 00:06:41.239 Tony Gerdes: And so we wanted to do the same thing with our aspire program. So not only did we develop the communication model, which we'll talk about more in a minute But we started to look at surveying and and asking questions. Our participants to see
00:06:41.620 --> 00:06:50.080 Tony Gerdes: Mit, Ctl, and are you using these skills? Are they making a difference, you know. Give us some examples of how your communication has changed, based on what you've learned here. 250,
00:06:50.150 --> 00:06:53.530 Tony Gerdes: and the results have really been impressive.
00:06:55.230 --> 00:06:57.509 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Well, what kind of results did you see?
00:06:57.990 --> 00:06:59.549 Tony Gerdes: Well, we saw
00:07:00.700 --> 00:07:17.870 Tony Gerdes: instances where where folks would say, yes, I have used the skills. And our initial pilot group. We worked with a group of folks who are managers at the firm, and some who were not in management roles, but certainly valuable contributors to the to the firm.
00:07:18.080 --> 00:07:26.670 Tony Gerdes: and within those 2 groups we noticed some trends. We noticed that the the retention level among those 2
00:07:26.810 --> 00:07:50.129 Tony Gerdes: the participants that the graduates of our aspire program were much higher than the retention of those who are not in the program. We noticed that promotion rates were higher, so that while the our aspired graduates were about 15% of our non attorney population, they attributed for accounted for about 20% of the promotions during the given period of time.
00:07:50.460 --> 00:08:01.029 Tony Gerdes: So these are folks who were staying at the firm who were advancing through the firm. But we're also giving us some anecdotal feedback of. Not only are they using the skills
00:08:01.860 --> 00:08:10.040 Tony Gerdes: thinking about their filters, or how the medium that they use to communicate their message varies based on their audience
00:08:10.180 --> 00:08:17.929 Tony Gerdes: and their message itself. But they were saying that we are consistently thinking about these things. Well, after the program ended.
00:08:18.070 --> 00:08:25.070 Tony Gerdes: our our first survey after our graduates had completed was about 18 months after the the program had ended
00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:29.710 Tony Gerdes: and they were still saying, yes, 90% had reported, we're using these skills every month.
00:08:29.990 --> 00:08:34.519 Tony Gerdes: which, again, I don't know many classes that you you take
00:08:34.570 --> 00:08:43.909 Tony Gerdes: in in in law school, or any other kind of school where you think I'm using this on a daily basis. And that's what what aspire has been.
00:08:45.160 --> 00:08:55.870 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah, you you don't. I mean, I don't know how unique it is. But you don't think about you know, a law firm providing, you know a course like this.
00:08:56.060 --> 00:09:08.729 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: a. And I I should say that I'm a student in in in your, in one of your current cohorts of the of the course and apart from aspects of
00:09:09.150 --> 00:09:24.950 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: evaluation after the fact. you know I learned yesterday that that, you know I I'm I'm being evaluated in my communication, or at least not my understanding. And what I got out of it, even as it as we as we graduate.
00:09:25.030 --> 00:09:46.749 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So where we have a a presentation to give and a you know, a a deep dive, you know, to to to present for, for the firm to recognize not only the quantitative value which you've measured from from the the survey evidence, but also qualitatively, is this a being absorbed? Are people, you know? Are people doing something with this? What do they get out
00:09:47.010 --> 00:09:50.969 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: in theory? Right? I mean, it sounds great. But
00:09:51.570 --> 00:09:56.099 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, how are people really going to use this in their day today? How are they going to?
00:09:56.900 --> 00:10:00.860 Tony Gerdes: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And the
00:10:00.940 --> 00:10:02.510 Tony Gerdes: the
00:10:04.120 --> 00:10:13.719 Tony Gerdes: I was getting some pop ups on my screen here. The important thing, I think, for a number of of our participants was that the
00:10:14.500 --> 00:10:20.889 Tony Gerdes: the power comes from not only the the community that is built from aspire.
00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:27.040 Tony Gerdes: the the interactions that people may have with one another, but also the
00:10:27.450 --> 00:10:43.489 Tony Gerdes: the exposure to management to be able to present as a and you you're right, Matthew. You did find out about this yesterday the presentation we. We generally don't lead with that just to to scare people off. So you know we will.
00:10:44.130 --> 00:11:11.979 Tony Gerdes: we will, as we invite people to to join this presentation. We do have some others who will who will join us from leadership in the firm, and this is really a chance for some of those people, as I mentioned before, some some high performers, to have direct access with some of our top firm leadership, and present and speak to them where they may not have a chance. You know you don't always have the chance to present before the CEO, or the or the the coo, and so forth.
00:11:11.980 --> 00:11:22.639 Tony Gerdes: but now you do. And so you get on the radar of the folks who are very influential. And again, that helps with promotions and helps with retention. I don't know you're making me nervous.
00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:32.159 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Well, we're going to go to break in a few minutes, but I I think before we do. I think I might be like to try to hit home. As to
00:11:32.410 --> 00:11:40.390 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know why an understanding of sort of the theory behind good communications
00:11:40.510 --> 00:11:47.340 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: could be really useful for for our business, for an entrepreneur really outside of our our firm environment.
00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:51.709 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: any any thoughts you'd want to share? from from that perspective
00:11:52.920 --> 00:12:08.940 Tony Gerdes: lots. And and really because I think it depends, it's going to depend basically on on the the organization, the entrepreneurs business itself. but the ones that immediately impact is that you're you're sending your message, your agenda to your your customers.
00:12:08.980 --> 00:12:13.729 Tony Gerdes: you know, and the way that even your marketing looks. That's still your communication.
00:12:14.020 --> 00:12:18.600 Tony Gerdes: and thinking about that, thinking about the the
00:12:18.660 --> 00:12:40.230 Tony Gerdes: potential. You have to develop a culture, because I like to say that it's a common language and shared experience that creates a culture at a workplace. we start using terms like filters or agenda speaker, recipient, and so forth, and the more people go through aspire, and the more folks that are firm are speaking with those those words.
00:12:40.360 --> 00:12:42.370 Tony Gerdes: we have a common understanding.
00:12:42.660 --> 00:12:49.239 Tony Gerdes: and that is a very difficult thing to understand or to to disseminate throughout an organization
00:12:49.320 --> 00:13:00.710 Tony Gerdes: but entrepreneurs can start building that from the from the ground level, and a lot of folks do. And they they build up this this incredible culture because they have that shared understanding of of communication.
00:13:01.150 --> 00:13:17.539 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah, I mean, common language begets, we get sculpture. and even in the attorney world, when we're doing agreements, we, we set up definitions, and we we agree on what it is we're we're talking about before we talk about what it is we're doing with that.
00:13:18.400 --> 00:13:29.860 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So I appreciate that we're going to go to. We're going to go to break when we come back. I'd love for you to share a little bit about what is taught within the aspire program.
00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:35.789 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but for now you've been listening to in tang. If I on top radio, Dot, Nyc. And we'll be back shortly.
00:15:50.970 --> 00:15:59.589 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: welcome back to in tang. If I I'm your host, Matthew as well, and my guest is Tony Gertie's the director of Knowledge and Innovation at off at Kerman
00:15:59.980 --> 00:16:03.890 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and the co-author of the aspire program.
00:16:03.990 --> 00:16:11.050 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: where we discuss and learn about aspects of communication or to improve our leadership.
00:16:11.690 --> 00:16:24.559 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so, Tony, we were talking before the break about why and and and what it is. But I I think it's hard to grasp. You know. How does someone teach about communications?
00:16:24.590 --> 00:16:33.409 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So maybe you could share with us a little bit about what is taught in the aspire program, and I think you have some slides you could share on the screen.
00:16:33.970 --> 00:16:36.110 Tony Gerdes: I do let me see if I can bring that up.
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:42.310 Tony Gerdes: Yeah, there we go. That work.
00:16:42.690 --> 00:16:49.890 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah, it's the regular powerpoint view as opposed to the the screen, the slideshow view. But that's fine.
00:16:50.540 --> 00:16:54.640 Tony Gerdes: Yeah, I was trying to put it off. There, there we go. Excellent.
00:16:54.900 --> 00:16:59.860 Tony Gerdes: all right. So we needed some structures I mentioned before.
00:16:59.890 --> 00:17:14.729 Tony Gerdes: my my partner, Desiree, and I thought we needed some way of being able to create a system for teaching communication, and we first tried to envision what happens in the process of communicating a message.
00:17:15.700 --> 00:17:21.439 Tony Gerdes: And so we started with this flow chart, really.
00:17:21.829 --> 00:17:31.199 Tony Gerdes: and developed as it went along and found that we really liked it. We liked what what it stood for. So we developed this, this is our communication model.
00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:42.610 Tony Gerdes: it starts with you as the speaker. You have a message. You have something you want to say. It could be a a call to action. It could be
00:17:42.740 --> 00:18:05.680 Tony Gerdes: a message to a a client. It could be a message to a customer. It could be your advertisement, whatever it is you're trying to say. We recognize that we all have filters, and such as it's mentioned on the slide, your bias, your perspective, the words that you choose, and so forth those things that are just part of how you speak, or how how you write.
00:18:06.210 --> 00:18:12.489 Tony Gerdes: Those things do have an influence over the message that that comes out. So does the medium.
00:18:12.590 --> 00:18:22.370 Tony Gerdes: the choice of media that you're using, whether we're using emails or text messages or instant messages through
00:18:22.670 --> 00:18:24.670 Tony Gerdes: teams, or whatever else.
00:18:24.730 --> 00:18:36.459 Tony Gerdes: or a phone call or a face to face conversation the medium itself. as Marshall Mcluhan. It's like to say the medium is the message, and sometimes has even more weight than the message itself.
00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:51.080 Tony Gerdes: The recipient also has a filter, and this is one piece that we sometimes forget. We may recognize that we don't have our own biases and our own perspectives based on our upbringing, our education, and so forth. Well, so does the recipient.
00:18:51.320 --> 00:18:59.670 Tony Gerdes: And so this message continues to go through the flow chart passes through the recipients filter to the recipient.
00:18:59.860 --> 00:19:15.530 Tony Gerdes: him or herself. Now the recipient. while we talk about the speaker having an agenda, having internal monologue or dialogue, the recipient does as well. And so we were talking about this yesterday, actually, Matthew in in our class, how
00:19:16.010 --> 00:19:22.719 Tony Gerdes: the the call to action that I may be sending out that I feel is most important, and it's been on my mind for weeks.
00:19:22.750 --> 00:19:35.179 Tony Gerdes: I'm now sending out this email, expecting everybody to just be thrilled with it. but it's hitting Matthew right as he's preparing for for a vacation, you know, or he's preparing to to take on a a new client.
00:19:35.250 --> 00:19:38.080 Tony Gerdes: and this is the last thing that he wants to have on his mind.
00:19:38.300 --> 00:19:46.469 Tony Gerdes: so understanding that while this may be top of mind for us, it's not necessarily on the the recipients agenda.
00:19:46.610 --> 00:19:55.050 Tony Gerdes: And so we talk about, how, then, do we try to negotiate those 2 so that we are on the same page, if you will, of that agenda.
00:19:55.880 --> 00:20:19.789 Tony Gerdes: All while this is going on, there are elements of nonverbal communication, or the active listening and checking for understanding happening simultaneously. You know I'm I'm looking for the head nods. I'm looking for some sort of signed. Are you with me on this? Or the puzzled eyes or the rolling of the eyes, or whatever else. it's giving me some clue that I'm on the right track, or maybe I'm not
00:20:20.010 --> 00:20:25.540 Tony Gerdes: these things all influence the the message that that is being communicated.
00:20:25.580 --> 00:20:31.140 Tony Gerdes: And this is all done within the context of a relationship. We like to say that every
00:20:31.280 --> 00:20:41.960 Tony Gerdes: communication opportunity is a chance to improve that relationship, because whether your your message is received well or not, you're learning. You're learning about the other person's
00:20:42.020 --> 00:20:45.069 Tony Gerdes: habits. The other person's biases.
00:20:45.140 --> 00:20:55.320 Tony Gerdes: perspectives, agendas, and so forth. And so these are things that can help us to establish long term relationships. And if you think about it, the relationships that you have.
00:20:55.330 --> 00:20:58.699 Tony Gerdes: they're the closest are the ones that you'll often
00:20:58.760 --> 00:21:06.260 Tony Gerdes: into it the filter or the the the agenda of the other person. And that again is where at the firm.
00:21:06.710 --> 00:21:14.240 Tony Gerdes: we want to increase those opportunities to build those relationships, knowing that we're going to have a more cohesive workforce.
00:21:14.610 --> 00:21:22.499 Tony Gerdes: and I think that, too, speaks to entrepreneurs as well that this this is a this. If you will have a small team, for instance.
00:21:22.540 --> 00:21:30.350 Tony Gerdes: we need to be in in lockstep because there's a big job ahead of us, and to be able to rally the troops together
00:21:31.120 --> 00:21:33.869 Tony Gerdes: and be bonded around that that goal
00:21:33.980 --> 00:21:36.000 Tony Gerdes: is a great importance.
00:21:37.210 --> 00:21:49.189 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So there, there's so much here and a, and we don't have enough time really to to to go through as much as I probably would like to do. But we'll do what we can.
00:21:49.330 --> 00:22:13.280 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Let me first say that I would be remiss in not pointing out the fact that communication model is a trademark. You have a Tm. Up there that I I feel like my job is done. I can. I can. I can feel good that that you know you've taken ownership of, of the of the name of your of your model here, and of the
00:22:13.300 --> 00:22:15.800 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, this, this educational opportunity.
00:22:15.980 --> 00:22:20.069 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: They're they're they're perks to work in a law firm. So it's
00:22:20.710 --> 00:22:35.999 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But but I think you know kind of drilling down into into the actual model. And what you what you kind of outlined for us? definitely a. A. A lot of a lot of comments I have
00:22:36.030 --> 00:22:38.550 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And so so
00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:43.789 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so maybe start from the last thing. Well, no, actually, maybe I'll start from an overview first.
00:22:43.860 --> 00:22:58.520 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So one thing that I noticed about about this diagram is that it directs you from the speaker on the left to the recipient on the right It makes it seem very one way
00:22:58.770 --> 00:23:03.040 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: except for these double arrows that we have at the top of the bottom.
00:23:03.190 --> 00:23:07.649 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but it suggests that I have a message, and I'm going to convey it to you.
00:23:08.010 --> 00:23:23.560 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: an a. And I think we both will, would agree that that's not communication, or at least that's only one form of communication, and maybe not even the kind of communication that we want to to have. So maybe, could you address that sort of
00:23:24.010 --> 00:23:29.450 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: one way aspect of the of this model as it as it looks
00:23:30.050 --> 00:23:43.320 Tony Gerdes: absolutely. And if you think of it, this is this, this model is probably conducted in in about half a second. you know, as as you're thinking about this, and then you start to speak and something comes out.
00:23:44.020 --> 00:23:56.539 Tony Gerdes: I take that, and I send that message along. Matt. You take it. Flip this around so that it now speaking, you're the speaker, and sending it right back to me. so it does. It does happen very, very quickly
00:23:56.550 --> 00:24:24.090 Tony Gerdes: Part of what we were trying to do is to break it down into its smaller components. I had a a friend once say to me, if you ever took an art history class, and then you go to a museum afterward. you start to see things differently. You're not just saying, wow! That's a beautiful picture. It's I wonder why they use that red and the lower right corner, or you know these kind of things. for me as as I go and watch plays myself.
00:24:24.490 --> 00:24:38.970 Tony Gerdes: I I criticize, I I nitpick. I kind of say, Okay, now, this. I don't know why that person made that gesture or something like this. and it's it's just because you have a different perspective. You're trying to make something that is somewhat subjective, more objective.
00:24:39.310 --> 00:24:42.429 Tony Gerdes: And in doing that we can analyze it better.
00:24:42.710 --> 00:24:53.900 Tony Gerdes: That's that's really the point of of trying to build this structure of a model. we have one resource that we use in the course where, the communication process is
00:24:54.110 --> 00:24:57.840 Tony Gerdes: likened to tossing a ball of clay back and forth.
00:24:58.050 --> 00:25:20.529 Tony Gerdes: and I feel that that's a great analogy for this, because I have my little ball of clay, and I throw it over to Matthew and Matthew, then molten a different way and sends it back. And then we're constantly doing that back and forth. So I think that that's that's a great visual. Because we do. We impact. We give our own impression on that topic
00:25:20.580 --> 00:25:23.279 Tony Gerdes: and send it back over to the other side.
00:25:24.130 --> 00:25:40.700 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah. So you know, I I mean, we just experience that. And I guess every communication we experience that, but maybe to even to highlight it. because you presented me with an overview of the communication model. I noticed something about it.
00:25:40.700 --> 00:25:55.319 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and a and interpreted it a particular way. So she this looks awfully a lot one way but communication is not one way, and I took my ball of clay and threw it over to you. And you said, you're right.
00:25:55.460 --> 00:26:21.909 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: This is a microscopic view. We've drilled down and focused. And so you you know, you maybe are the speaker and the communication are throwing your ball of play to you know, to the other person, that's all of this is, that's all what this is showing. And now, as you mold the ball of clay and send it back. Now it's going the other direction. And so we're repeating this with a new speaker and a new recipient
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:28.869 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: A, and and and in the course of that discussion just between you and I. Now we have done
00:26:29.010 --> 00:26:48.689 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: right. Yeah, I said, that's one way I threw it to you. You said, yes, it's one way, if it's if you look at it. for each statement being made, each each each person's turn to speak, but we're not speaking over each other, so when I'm done you got the clay, you mold it, you send it back, and you go. Here's what it is.
00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:49.970 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So I love that.
00:26:51.980 --> 00:27:07.429 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: We're going to go to a break in a minute. But before we do maybe some fodder for some for the discussion. Because the other thing that I I I what I picture this I I mean I literally am a picturing
00:27:08.070 --> 00:27:09.669 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, like
00:27:09.730 --> 00:27:26.720 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: these virtual instead of like thought bubbles, or something like the virtual clay being thrown but then being thrown in in multiple directions. So right we we in our class yesterday talked about. You know
00:27:27.330 --> 00:27:33.400 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: that this would be something between a single speaker and a single recipient. But
00:27:33.830 --> 00:27:44.250 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: that's not how all communication is done. Sometimes it's us one speaker to many recipients. sometimes it's one speaker to one recipient with other people present.
00:27:44.260 --> 00:27:46.489 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And right? So the
00:27:46.580 --> 00:27:59.300 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I'm envisioning almost like a circle where where the arrows are going out in there in all different directions, and maybe the clay is being bolted differently by the different different recipients, some of whom are sending the clay back, and some of them are taking the clay and walking away.
00:28:01.410 --> 00:28:06.470 Tony Gerdes: Yes, yes, and I's especially with the groups, you know.
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:20.340 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So that's great. So we we will. We'll come back and talk a little bit more about the G 2 communication model in a moment. You've been listening to in tang. If I on talk radio, dot Nyc, and we'll be back short.
00:30:22.790 --> 00:30:44.109 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so welcome back to in tang. If I on talk radio at Nyc. I'm your host, Matthew as well. My guest is Tony Gertie's director of knowledge and innovation at off at Kerman, and he is the co-author of the aspire course which is a communication and leadership development course and the G 2 communication model which you're seeing on the screen before you.
00:30:44.130 --> 00:30:54.129 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Before the break, Tony, we were talking a little bit about. You know what exactly this model shows and sort of the the context of a one on one communication.
00:30:54.510 --> 00:31:00.810 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But what. But then I expanded and I said, but not all communications are one on one. Let's look at this in the group context.
00:31:00.850 --> 00:31:07.689 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and I think maybe the next logical place to to, to to about. This is in the context of
00:31:07.730 --> 00:31:18.950 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: single too many communications, like advertising, or even like this. Podcast. So how does this apply when you've got.
00:31:18.990 --> 00:31:24.859 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, hundreds, thousands of people on the receiving end of the message being sent?
00:31:25.740 --> 00:31:27.830 Tony Gerdes: Certainly. and
00:31:27.990 --> 00:31:44.190 Tony Gerdes: it it does for the most part start off the same. You still have an agenda. You still have a message you're trying to send. I have a message in being here today to talk to this group. For this, podcast my message doesn't change necessarily.
00:31:44.310 --> 00:31:47.069 Tony Gerdes: unless I know more about my recipient.
00:31:47.350 --> 00:31:55.309 Tony Gerdes: You know, the the medium is is clear. We know what this medium is. Would it play differently if it were just
00:31:55.330 --> 00:32:07.810 Tony Gerdes: video and or just audio, I guess we wouldn't have just video, you know. Would it play any differently? But we're just audio. Well, they wouldn't see on my gesturing of my hands. Join my Italian heritage, you know.
00:32:08.040 --> 00:32:23.309 Tony Gerdes: But if I know about the recipients, if I know you know the attended audience is usually this group of people. I might tailor my message a little bit, because I know that it's going to pass through that recipients filter. I need to be able to hit something that will
00:32:23.670 --> 00:32:28.730 Tony Gerdes: hit some words that may may trigger something, a positive response for my recipient.
00:32:28.870 --> 00:32:35.200 Tony Gerdes: also part of yesterday's class. We watched a a video that talked about
00:32:35.490 --> 00:32:44.170 Tony Gerdes: advertising in Eastern nations that were more collectivist versus Western nations that were more individualistic
00:32:44.220 --> 00:32:50.890 Tony Gerdes: and so same product. But how you market that product in different cultures was very, very significant.
00:32:51.020 --> 00:32:58.390 Tony Gerdes: And I think you know our communication works very much the same way. We're communicating a message that is advertising. That's what we're trying to do
00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:02.910 Tony Gerdes: and knowing who our audience is is is paramount.
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:08.159 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, and it's it's it's talked about all the time, but
00:33:08.630 --> 00:33:30.659 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: not so much in this context. Right? you know, we we we we're broadcasting message. Who is our audience? What's the message we want to convey to that audience? And how do we reach them? We think about that. You know, when we do, when we do these things all the time you and I in planning for for this particular podcast discussed.
00:33:30.660 --> 00:33:49.289 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, hey, who are the people who listen to this? Podcast these are entrepreneurs and businesses that are interested in in tangible whatever they may be. And so how can we tailor our discussion about this cool course in this school model
00:33:50.090 --> 00:33:54.789 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: to people who are in that environment, who are in their own
00:33:54.850 --> 00:34:16.460 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: starting their own business or in a growing business? a and and have those interests, And and if you paid attention throughout the podcast you, the audience and paid attention throughout this podcast you've heard us say, multiple times, you know, how would this apply in a business. How would this supply for an entrepreneur?
00:34:16.460 --> 00:34:40.370 Tony Gerdes: we keep coming back to that because we're making the assumption that that is, who is listening to us. And we want you to receive our message the way we intended it is that that for Tony? Absolutely absolutely. We haven't once said, how would teachers or pig farmers feel about this. So you know, I think that that's we're we're doing our best to try to try to read our recipients.
00:34:40.560 --> 00:34:52.480 Tony Gerdes: I I'm interested in the pig farmers, and you don't know there could be a good pick farmer entrepreneur listening so absolutely. I I I came from from the south, where we had lots of pig, farm, or entrepreneurs to be honest with you.
00:34:54.520 --> 00:35:11.030 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So So that that's very helpful. Right? We're thinking about our message, and in thinking about our message we're thinking about the recipient of our message. One of the things right smack in the middle of the screen in front of us in the middle of your model is the medium
00:35:11.120 --> 00:35:15.980 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: here we, the medium, is dictated to us. And so, because.
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:22.850 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, we're informed of this medium. And this is our only medium to to To do this, podcast
00:35:23.720 --> 00:35:40.859 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: we make adjustments there to our communication and think about how we're going to best utilize the speed in to reach our audience. So this is zoom right, and I don't. I'm not Italian. I don't normally use my hands when I'm speaking.
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:59.580 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know what I'm sitting. Usually I'm sitting. I'm not right now. Usually I'm on a I'm on a client call. Sometimes. Maybe I've got my, you know, my hand on my face, but the the most, for the most part you don't see my hands, or they're taking notes while I'm having a conversation with someone on a on a zoom or a teams call.
00:35:59.810 --> 00:36:00.580 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But
00:36:00.820 --> 00:36:12.299 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: in the context of a zoom call where you're advertising where you're where you're where you're speaking in a podcast to a large audience. you have to keep the screen interesting.
00:36:12.570 --> 00:36:16.259 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And this medium dictates that we should
00:36:16.560 --> 00:36:20.570 Tony Gerdes: use our hands. I'm doing a lot now. I'm not really conscious of it. I gotta stop.
00:36:20.660 --> 00:36:29.080 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But the medium could impact the mess. And you even said that with the with the quote, early right? The medium is the message
00:36:29.560 --> 00:36:32.119 Tony Gerdes: right? Other times you have the choice of the medium.
00:36:32.550 --> 00:36:37.460 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and this happens, I think, is really interesting in the context of generation gaps.
00:36:37.890 --> 00:36:43.459 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: When I first started to practice law, I I you know, a long, long time ago.
00:36:43.600 --> 00:36:49.410 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: my default form of communication with everybody
00:36:49.540 --> 00:36:54.559 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: within the firm, with the clients, with everything was emailed.
00:36:55.190 --> 00:37:04.040 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And one day. you know. I sent an email and and a partner pulled me aside and and and said.
00:37:04.140 --> 00:37:08.289 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: You know this is not the only medium available to you.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:15.910 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and sometimes you can get things done, communicated, and resolved much, much easier by the telephone.
00:37:16.450 --> 00:37:30.039 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And I'm really there's a telephone. I never heard of that. But you know I've customly reminded of it, too, because I had a client you know, and we were clearly not understanding and not not
00:37:30.340 --> 00:37:50.639 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: or your understanding, maybe. But we're clearly not aligning on our on our discussions over over email, and the client suggested to me. Hey, let's just get on a call. I'm like Duh. Of course I should have thought to get on a call and a and and we didn't. And it was so much easier to.
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:56.910 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, because the the ball tossing Scenario that you sort of described it, the
00:37:57.150 --> 00:38:09.069 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but hypothetical clay. What we're what we're modeling on on on a phone call is is much more interactive and faster than in an email communication.
00:38:09.190 --> 00:38:20.969 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: an email communication. I to the ball. I'm waiting a long time before you actually even receive the clay and and think about molding the clay and then molded and send it back to me.
00:38:23.040 --> 00:38:28.549 Tony Gerdes: Yeah. And and with email in particular, we in the course, we talk about the rule of 3.
00:38:28.750 --> 00:38:35.259 Tony Gerdes: So that if it takes more than 3 min to reach your email, it should be a phone call.
00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:45.549 Tony Gerdes: If it's more than 3 topics that you have in an email. It should be a phone call. If it's going back and forth and back again for more than 3 times.
00:38:45.630 --> 00:39:00.109 Tony Gerdes: It's a phone call, So we we try to use that rule of 3 to kind of help to steer that a little bit But if you point out. There are other reasons, too, for using the different media, you know, if you want to.
00:39:00.870 --> 00:39:26.150 Tony Gerdes: you know, we we talk about praising publicly and and criticizing privately. You know those are some of the types of things to where? How? How would I be able to to shape that message differently. If I'm speaking with somebody, one on one or I, I am on a call or a video call, as if we're remote. you know those kind of things where somebody can see my reaction as opposed to just imagining.
00:39:26.210 --> 00:39:28.890 Tony Gerdes: Because that's that's one of the tricky things. Is that
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:42.680 Tony Gerdes: the medium depending on the medium that you're using, you will lose certain elements of that communication. If we're not in person, we're losing different pieces. So the video is obviously a good
00:39:42.940 --> 00:39:55.820 Tony Gerdes: substitute. Reasonable substitute, I should say. But you you start to take away some of the information that is that could be distributed to your recipient.
00:39:57.470 --> 00:40:18.059 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and you you also have kind of recipients, preferences, and I think we we we probably all. We're probably all guilty of having our default medium, and not necessarily thinking about the other choices, and and utilizing them. you know, unless we're hopefully made aware by by someone like you. But
00:40:18.490 --> 00:40:27.030 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But you know, we have our default by. I mentioned the long time ago. My default was always email, nowadays, Covid post Covid.
00:40:27.080 --> 00:40:38.200 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Everybody's on these video calls we've got we've got. We've got these zoom and teams, you know, fatigue from all these calls. And this is this is the default. This is now my default.
00:40:38.750 --> 00:40:45.159 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: You know why? Because if we couldn't be in person, this was a way that we could. We we could
00:40:45.200 --> 00:40:50.289 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: best closely resemble that in person communication. But you're right. We lost something
00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:55.939 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: right and and you know I know others that
00:40:56.090 --> 00:41:14.669 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know they they do. They do things by default by the phone. And that that's how they wanted. They want to receive things where they want to be texted. And or we use other platforms like Whatsapp or or Wechat, as a means of communication, to make it easier, because that's the means of communication that they prefer.
00:41:15.020 --> 00:41:16.530 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: We have to be aware of it.
00:41:16.740 --> 00:41:20.750 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And so that's part of who the recipient is, and their and their filter.
00:41:22.610 --> 00:41:35.240 Tony Gerdes: And and we we also have a course at the firm that talks about business development. and we see this in a lot of that as well. Sometimes attorneys will will go through the course and say, Why, I want to be. I want to do a webinar.
00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:42.290 Tony Gerdes: And Marianne Lee, who is our trainer and and developer of the course, would say, Well, okay.
00:41:42.350 --> 00:41:44.080 Tony Gerdes: you know, who's your audience
00:41:44.350 --> 00:41:51.510 Tony Gerdes: are these is this a webinar seeking audience, you know. And if if not, then the webinar isn't going to reach them.
00:41:53.630 --> 00:42:01.100 Tony Gerdes: Yeah, that's that's that's definitely right. So you got to think about who wants to receive your message and how they want to receive the message right? Right?
00:42:01.730 --> 00:42:12.670 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: The other thing before we go to our next break. The other thing that we want to bring out from from from the screen in front of us, in the communication model is, is your filter, because this is something that
00:42:12.730 --> 00:42:26.610 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: we hear about, and maybe are talking about a bit more than we used to. We, which is inclusion, diversity. you know, a bias implicit bias. And
00:42:26.790 --> 00:42:41.570 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and this has been, you know, brought to the forefront. Right? We've had a lot more attention on. Gee, what is it? What are the assumptions I'm making, and what are my views that I'm conveying, that I didn't realize I'm conveying by what I'm saying and how I'm saying it.
00:42:41.770 --> 00:42:50.549 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so I think it's extremely important but you can see where it kind of fits in both on the your filter and on the recipients filter
00:42:50.610 --> 00:42:53.210 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: in this larger schema of
00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:55.979 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: communication. It's not all about that.
00:42:56.450 --> 00:42:58.340 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but that is going to impact
00:42:58.520 --> 00:43:00.489 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: how it's received
00:43:01.870 --> 00:43:23.660 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: great. Well, we're gonna go to break when we come back. I'd like to see Tony. If you could share you know what messages you would have for entrepreneurs and spend small businesses in relation to communications, and we can have some further conversation about that you've been listening to in tang. If I on talk radio, dot Nyc and we'll be right back.
00:45:30.300 --> 00:45:42.190 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: welcome back to in tang. If I on top radio at Nyc. I'm your host, Matthew Aspell. I guess the Tony Gertie's director of knowledge and Innovation at off at Kerman and co-author of aspire and the communication model.
00:45:42.760 --> 00:45:50.569 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: You still see that G. 2 communication model on the screen. and maybe we'll talk just a little bit more
00:45:50.660 --> 00:45:53.639 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: about that before we stop sharing it.
00:45:53.680 --> 00:46:13.230 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but I I guess. where I thought we would go next. Tony. is active listening and checking for understanding. because I love this image of the clay toss right, and we keep coming back to the clay toss. But you know, with the clay toss, you know, I got my ball of clay. I mold it.
00:46:13.430 --> 00:46:17.090 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I send it over to you hopefully. You're catching
00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:18.650 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But
00:46:19.710 --> 00:46:22.300 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: what happens if you send back a different ball of clay
00:46:22.330 --> 00:46:24.400 Tony Gerdes: right? That, like you're not.
00:46:24.470 --> 00:46:26.999 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know we can be talking at each other
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:29.050 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and not
00:46:29.090 --> 00:46:35.060 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: receiving a message, and then and then sending a message that's related to what you've received.
00:46:35.450 --> 00:46:41.750 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so tell us a little bit about active listing and checking for understanding as as that as that fits into your model.
00:46:42.090 --> 00:47:05.540 Tony Gerdes: certainly, and and they do go on simultaneously. They're part of the the shaping of the clay and understanding what it is that you get back. I was once working with a group of teachers in a school and had asked them to fill out an evaluation form for my session. And it included, you know, list 3 things that you learned today. And as I read over one of the forms, and they
00:47:05.540 --> 00:47:27.610 Tony Gerdes: had identified what they had learned, what they had learned had nothing to do with the topic that I had taught. In fact, it was the opposite of what I was trying to teach. And so I thought, Well, if that's how you learned. That's what you learned then I I didn't teach it. Well, you know. So to your point it, it kind came back to me to say, Okay, that, wasn't it? that was I. I missed the ball on that one, anyway.
00:47:28.340 --> 00:47:35.940 Tony Gerdes: Active listening is an interesting topic, because our brains process words much faster than we can speak them.
00:47:36.060 --> 00:47:44.459 Tony Gerdes: And so your if you've ever listened to those speed readers as they go through the legal disclaimers and so forth on advertisements.
00:47:44.470 --> 00:47:54.729 Tony Gerdes: You do understand them. It goes very, very quickly. You might not be able to to catch every word, but your brain does, and it picks it up, and it tells you what what's been said.
00:47:55.180 --> 00:47:56.890 Tony Gerdes: And so, if you can
00:47:57.060 --> 00:48:03.130 Tony Gerdes: can comprehend, maybe 3 times as much as as someone can speak, or 3 times as quickly as someone can speak.
00:48:03.510 --> 00:48:05.720 Tony Gerdes: What do you do with all that extra brain space?
00:48:06.160 --> 00:48:24.759 Tony Gerdes: And that's where people get lost in thought, or I'm thinking about the next day, I'm going to say why you're still speaking to me. those are the the types of things that can lead to distraction. And you're not really listening. You're planning your next attack, or your next agenda or your your next monologue.
00:48:25.560 --> 00:48:38.130 Tony Gerdes: rather active listening will challenge you to think about those words. Think about that ball of clay as it's coming in, and see if you understand the the textures and the new ones, and so forth within that clay
00:48:38.180 --> 00:48:42.289 Tony Gerdes: before you get to think about your response
00:48:43.090 --> 00:48:54.100 Tony Gerdes: with checking for understanding This is something I experienced as a classroom teacher a lot. And then, when I started to work in school reform, I learned even more
00:48:54.170 --> 00:48:59.990 Tony Gerdes: the question that most people will say in wrapping up a meeting, or a lesson, or something like that, is
00:49:00.260 --> 00:49:01.410 Tony Gerdes: any questions.
00:49:02.530 --> 00:49:11.919 Tony Gerdes: And and that is the worst question to ask, because nobody wants to say, Oh, yeah, I I don't understand, you know, points a through Z. that's not. That's not the idea
00:49:12.020 --> 00:49:13.570 Tony Gerdes: rather
00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:29.339 Tony Gerdes: the the checking for understanding gives somebody an opportunity to to feel that they have been heard But it also allows you the opportunity to understand that the direction that you were given, for instance, is actually what is going to be followed through.
00:49:29.420 --> 00:49:37.759 Tony Gerdes: So if I'm working with a team member and I say, I, I need you to do A, B and C, and that person says, got it? Any questions, Nope.
00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:49.679 Tony Gerdes: and then we get the project back, and it's completely all right. that was on me for not fully checking for understanding. So I might say something instead, like, Okay, so what do you see as your next steps?
00:49:49.980 --> 00:49:53.390 Tony Gerdes: Or how does this project compare to other ones that you've done
00:49:53.780 --> 00:50:08.600 Tony Gerdes: so. Now I I'm not just asking the person to regurgitate information, but to take that next level of thinking and synthesize that a bit and say, Okay, well, from what I understood from the directions and what I remember about this last project, here are the differences.
00:50:09.040 --> 00:50:14.420 Tony Gerdes: And when you're asking somebody to combine that information, they have to demonstrate a better level of understanding.
00:50:14.580 --> 00:50:20.100 Tony Gerdes: And so, Matthew, for for you and me, you're asking me, for instance, about this podcast
00:50:20.230 --> 00:50:26.099 Tony Gerdes: you know, to check for understanding. You could say so. Are you able to? You know
00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:37.889 Tony Gerdes: log into the to the Zoom Meeting? are you? You're comfortable with with sharing your Powerpoint. Show that to me something that you can demonstrate a a, a level of understanding of, or proficiency in that.
00:50:39.660 --> 00:51:05.610 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So As you were speaking, I was formulating my agenda for the next thing I wanted to say. I was listening. I was actively listening. But But but you know, like things occur to you as you have the conversation right? And you know, I I think I'm gonna step out of the theoretical model, and and sort of in the ideal model for a moment and say, you know, it's
00:51:06.230 --> 00:51:07.930 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: maybe it's not always possible.
00:51:08.060 --> 00:51:30.799 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know you have the message that you want to convey you. Yes, you want to make sure you understand. But In order to keep all your thoughts coherent to. To make sure you remember to say the things you want to say. Sometimes you have to come and take a step aside and and make a note which I've been doing in the chat as you as you've been speaking and
00:51:31.150 --> 00:51:32.640 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know. So so
00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:38.689 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: we we need to. We need to think about. We need to get the feedback. We need and
00:51:38.720 --> 00:51:52.569 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and we at the recipient having, having received the message, we can pro actively rather than wait for the speaker to ask us something depending on how they ask
00:51:52.570 --> 00:52:12.439 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but rather than wait to ask us something to check for our understanding. We can repeat back to them our understanding, and that is a valid and useful thing that recipients do all the time to ensure alignment without having to be requested, because I think you're right. If the speaker says you know any questions
00:52:12.740 --> 00:52:29.030 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: here, you know, the answer is generally no and you aren't going to have that opportunity. So the the recipient can can take an active role as a listener and a, and to convey their understanding, and when they happen
00:52:29.420 --> 00:52:36.639 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Well, so one more thing about that. When they do that. what they do is they tell the speaker
00:52:36.780 --> 00:52:44.950 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: that I get you that I've been listening to what you had to say, and I'm attempting to. I'm showing you that I care that I got it right.
00:52:45.200 --> 00:52:57.249 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So feeling heard right? It was what we what we mentioned. that's I think that's very valid, and in some instances you're told. I I I was told
00:52:57.280 --> 00:53:05.540 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I was once told. I don't know if this is accurate anymore, or even a fair generalization, but I was once told that
00:53:06.030 --> 00:53:10.649 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: when speaking to a woman versus a man.
00:53:10.720 --> 00:53:12.480 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I was told that
00:53:12.760 --> 00:53:15.059 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: a woman would
00:53:15.100 --> 00:53:22.019 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: prefer to have you tell them that you tell them what you understood from what they said.
00:53:22.360 --> 00:53:23.880 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: because they
00:53:23.920 --> 00:53:39.369 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: big generalization. But I was told that that there is a feeling of not being heard. If you just come back with your own thing. So you avoid that. And if you make that generalization which we all do, you, you kind of.
00:53:39.820 --> 00:53:40.580 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know.
00:53:40.910 --> 00:53:45.149 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: make an assumption which could, may or may not be correct, but you could
00:53:45.300 --> 00:53:46.179 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you could help
00:53:46.870 --> 00:53:51.629 Tony Gerdes: I I one other point I want to make, see so many things I want to say as you were talking. I'm talking too much now.
00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:55.490 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but As a labors.
00:53:57.650 --> 00:54:00.470 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: The problem I have, and I hope you can address
00:54:01.550 --> 00:54:09.779 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: is that it feels so formal for me as the speaker to then have to go and say and say.
00:54:10.370 --> 00:54:15.289 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Please repeat back to me, or if you, if not, repeat back because you said you said Don't do that right, but
00:54:15.450 --> 00:54:17.159 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but you know.
00:54:17.190 --> 00:54:29.389 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so share with me your next steps. Whatever. However, it is going going to be that you're going to check for that understanding. makes it feel like it was a change in status, and it makes it feel like you're quizzing the person.
00:54:29.680 --> 00:54:40.939 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And like you like you doubt that they listened and and heard you, and that itself conveys a message. Maybe one you don't want to convey. So how do you do with that?
00:54:42.060 --> 00:54:49.820 Tony Gerdes: There, there, too, it's going to depend on the relationship, you know, which is why it's all in the big box there the the dynamic.
00:54:49.860 --> 00:54:54.219 Tony Gerdes: you know, in in such a case, where, if you are
00:54:54.410 --> 00:55:01.019 Tony Gerdes: handing an assignment to a team member or something like that where you may be the professional supervisor of that person.
00:55:01.030 --> 00:55:14.449 Tony Gerdes: there is. There's some sort of accountability that's there as well. I think you know, as you had pointed out, for for the recipient to be able to come back and ask. So what I hear you say is this right?
00:55:14.450 --> 00:55:31.629 Tony Gerdes: You know that's a very important thing. again, part of that relationship, you know. I I would feel comfortable asking that with with you, but maybe not for somebody else. I would feel like, Oh, I need to. I need to understand, or I should understand for some reason, even if I really don't.
00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:46.229 Tony Gerdes: So you know that that, too, is where we say, this is all about building that relationship. These things are, we're trying to make something that is very structured. not. So that you follow through this in lock step.
00:55:46.540 --> 00:56:07.109 Tony Gerdes: but just because just so that you become more aware of the dynamics that are that are at play. And this is what we really want to to communicate, not only to to the folks who are on this call, but to the folks who you're serving, either as your customers, your clients, that and for the folks who who you hire onto your teams.
00:56:07.160 --> 00:56:10.479 Tony Gerdes: that there are, there are many different
00:56:10.900 --> 00:56:16.349 Tony Gerdes: influences to the message that you send, and just because you say it doesn't mean somebody has heard it that way.
00:56:18.010 --> 00:56:36.140 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So you know it. It is the mechanics of the communication, but it's not mechanical, and it doesn't need to be rigidly followed it. Need you need some awareness? so that you can make sure you're understood. And the person you're speaking with is understood.
00:56:36.380 --> 00:56:37.380 Tony Gerdes: Exactly.
00:56:38.390 --> 00:56:46.630 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So, Tony, we're we're just about out of time. Is there any final message you'd like to leave for the entrepreneurs and businesses listening on our program today.
00:56:46.890 --> 00:57:02.160 Tony Gerdes: Certainly. I think that that communication skills can be taught. I know that was something that had been debated even among folks in our firm as well. we have been able to demonstrate that that there are steps in this process. That is, as Matthew as you said.
00:57:02.560 --> 00:57:10.500 Tony Gerdes: we don't want to necessarily teach it rigidly, but to create some awareness, and also the fact is that if folks do have teams
00:57:10.600 --> 00:57:11.760 Tony Gerdes: providing
00:57:11.920 --> 00:57:21.499 Tony Gerdes: opportunities for this kind of professional development which also impacts people's personal lives, most of our participants and our graduates have said, I use this at home as well
00:57:21.720 --> 00:57:32.990 Tony Gerdes: fostering that kind of productive professional development at your company or organization really does improve retention, morale and cohesion.
00:57:34.490 --> 00:57:54.190 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Thank you so much, Tony. I think with that we'll leave the audience with the ball of clays in your hands, so we'll look forward to receiving it back when you are ready. you've been listening to in tangify on talk radio dot Nyc tune in on Fridays at noon, Eastern time every week
00:57:54.200 --> 00:57:56.640 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: for another wonderful guests
00:57:56.660 --> 00:58:00.750 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: addressing the intangible aspects of business. Thanks so much. Have a great weekend.