[NEW EPISODE] A Womanist View of the Bible

Thursdays 11:00am - 12:00pm (EDT)

WHAT WILL THE AUDIENCE LEARN?

The audience will hear the value of interpreting religious and biblical text through a womanist lens.

EPISODE SUMMARY:

The noted author, Alice Walker coined the phrase "womanist" in the early 80s. In short, a womanist is an individual who is focused on issues that are specific to black women in particular but also addresses issues of race, class, and gender. Womanism encompasses tradition, community, spirituality, and the self.  Womanist theology, then, is examining religion from the perspective of women who are black. It is an opportunity to affirm their existence and contributions and to dispel myths and harmful theology that bind individuals to oppression.

Join Rev. Dr. TLC and the Rev. Catherine Cummings, a United Methodist Minister, as they discuss the myriad of ways that religion and Biblical texts can be a balm to the spirit and simultaneously perpetuate racists and sexist beliefs when not not interpreted through a historical, critical, and womanist lens.

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Tune in for this important conversation at TalkRadio.nyc or watch the Livestream by Clicking Here.

Show Notes

Segment 1

Rev. Dr TLC informs the listeners that her show’s goal is to uncover, dismantle, and eradicate racism. She wants to create a world where racial equity is the norm. Rev. Dr TLC encourages her listeners to subscribe to the show and send in questions and comments at sacredintelligence.com. She invites her listeners to participate in a guided meditation before jumping into today’s episode. Rev. Dr. TLC introduces the topics for the episode and shares how it will focus on womanist theology. The term womanist theology was coined by the author Alice Walker. Rev. Dr. TLC explains how she started her work healing the wounds of religion because she believes that there are some ways our religion oppresses us. She welcomes her guest Rev. Catherine Cummings, United Methodist Minister. Rev. Dr. TLC shares how she met Rev. Cummings.

Segment 2

Rev. Dr. TLC asks Rev. Cummings what are some tools she uses to stay grounded in her field of work. Rev. Cummings explains that God’s love is the fuel that keeps her going. Rev. Dr. TLC and Rev. Cummings shares why they refer to Jesus as someone who is revolutionary . Rev. Dr. TLC asks Rev. Cummings how she found herself deep in this work of racial equity and womanist theology. Rev. Cummings explains that her life experiences brought her to this work. Being a mixed woman she was met with a unique experience growing up in an Irish catholic setting.

Segment 3

Rev. Cummings explains her understanding of womanist theology. She says it centers the lived experience of black women and their spirituality. She talks about being introduced to black liberation theology and how it really affirmed our blackness and black people. She explains how it focused on black struggle and black male leaders which perpetuated sexism behavior and beliefs. Rev. Dr. TLC asks Rev. Cummings how she uses womanist theology in the context of her preaching. She also asks Rev. Cummings if there are any women that she can point to that are often overlooked and dismissed. Rev. Dr. TLC and Rev. Cummings call out the racism that could be found in the bible that is usually ignored. They also discuss the ways in which people of color perpetuate a racist Christian belief. Some of the examples they used were when people refer to God as “Father God” when God is a spirit with no gender.

Segment 4

Rev. Cummings shares her journey as a womanist preacher and states that she is in her Proposal phase. Rev. Dr TLC asks Rev. Cumminings to share a story where women can’t be found in the text but it can be seen through a womanist lens. Rev. Cumminings recommends a couple of books, The Womanist Preacher by Kimberly Johnson and Womanist Sass and Talk Back by J Smith for those who are looking to get more in depth in womanist theology. Rev. Cumminging shares her last few words on Womanist Theology before ending the show.

Transcript

00:00:46.410 --> 00:01:05.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hello, and welcome to the dismantle Racism show. I'm your host, the Reverend Dr. Tlc. The gold of our show is to uncover, dismantle and to eradicate racism because we really do want to create a world where racial equity is the norm.

00:01:05.300 --> 00:01:11.540 I want to invite you, as always to please. Please please to share the show with a friend.

00:01:12.140 --> 00:01:22.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to subscribe to the show. We want to increase our viewership because we want to spread the word about ways in which we can dismantle racism.

00:01:22.420 --> 00:01:42.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Go to www sacred intelligence.com, and be in touch with me to write a comment about the show to tell me the type of guest you would love to see on the show as well. I just want you to make sure that you are supported in your journey to dismantle racism.

00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:49.190 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So please visit that site and find out ways in which you can work with me. When I also invite you to pick up a copy

00:01:49.410 --> 00:01:58.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: of my book. If you haven't done so already, Dismantling racism, healing separation from the inside out.

00:01:58.960 --> 00:02:07.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and I want to invite you to go to your favorite platform and download the meditations that go with the book.

00:02:07.910 --> 00:02:17.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We're going to begin our show today, as we always do by going into our own time of meditation. So if you would.

00:02:17.940 --> 00:02:27.430 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and if you are able, I want to invite you to the space of closing your eyes. and just connecting with

00:02:27.480 --> 00:02:30.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: your inner guide your inner spirit.

00:02:31.720 --> 00:02:34.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and just begin to breathe

00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:37.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: in and out.

00:02:39.850 --> 00:02:42.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: connecting with your divine wisdom.

00:02:44.180 --> 00:02:46.660 your sacred intelligence.

00:02:47.010 --> 00:02:49.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That part of you

00:02:49.850 --> 00:02:52.570 that helps you to manifest your greatness

00:02:52.850 --> 00:02:55.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: while helping others to do the same

00:02:56.830 --> 00:03:00.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is your breathing in and out.

00:03:01.440 --> 00:03:05.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Make sure that you pay attention to your body.

00:03:06.440 --> 00:03:07.940 what you're feeling.

00:03:08.630 --> 00:03:10.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The sensations

00:03:11.850 --> 00:03:13.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: pay attention to your thoughts.

00:03:17.070 --> 00:03:19.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and then connect with your breathing again.

00:03:20.970 --> 00:03:24.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: reading in and out.

00:03:25.300 --> 00:03:29.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and send loving and kind thoughts

00:03:29.750 --> 00:03:31.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to yourself.

00:03:32.640 --> 00:03:33.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to your body.

00:03:36.780 --> 00:03:41.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to the people with whom you are most connected with

00:03:43.770 --> 00:03:46.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: sin, loving and kind thoughts

00:03:48.260 --> 00:03:50.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to family members.

00:03:50.510 --> 00:03:53.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: friends, colleagues.

00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:56.360 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: those who are on the journey with you

00:03:58.020 --> 00:04:00.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe in and out.

00:04:01.660 --> 00:04:09.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and send loving and kind thoughts to even those people with whom you are in this agreement.

00:04:12.910 --> 00:04:15.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: send light to them.

00:04:19.269 --> 00:04:23.590 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Some thoughts of happiness and pure peace to them.

00:04:29.110 --> 00:04:31.530 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Breathe in and out.

00:04:32.520 --> 00:04:35.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and now connect with strangers

00:04:37.730 --> 00:04:42.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: those that you 1 2 wish

00:04:43.630 --> 00:04:45.310 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: a peaceful journey.

00:04:46.660 --> 00:04:48.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: happiness.

00:04:49.530 --> 00:04:51.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: support, and strength.

00:04:52.590 --> 00:04:55.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: or whatever it is that they face in life.

00:04:57.760 --> 00:05:00.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and just breathe in and out.

00:05:01.580 --> 00:05:05.270 recognizing that we are all connected.

00:05:07.190 --> 00:05:12.050 If one person hurts ultimately we all hurt.

00:05:14.780 --> 00:05:18.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: so just let that settle in your bones just for a minute.

00:05:22.810 --> 00:05:27.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Breathe in and out loving kindness for humanity.

00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:33.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Recognizing that what you do matters.

00:05:36.510 --> 00:05:40.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: recognizing your power to change the status quo.

00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:45.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you are important to the universe.

00:05:49.220 --> 00:05:51.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: so breathe in and out.

00:05:53.420 --> 00:05:56.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: recognizing that the power of one

00:05:57.960 --> 00:06:00.920 contributes to the power of community.

00:06:05.170 --> 00:06:09.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So, as we breathe in and out, we give gratitude for this moment

00:06:12.170 --> 00:06:15.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and the resources. We have to support our lives.

00:06:16.820 --> 00:06:19.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: including the people

00:06:19.190 --> 00:06:21.720 who are available to us

00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:27.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to help support our journey

00:06:28.490 --> 00:06:32.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to the ones that you've met, and the ones that you've yet to need.

00:06:33.840 --> 00:06:36.010 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Just give gratitude for them.

00:06:38.610 --> 00:06:42.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Breathe in and out, and give gratitude for your teachers.

00:06:44.040 --> 00:06:48.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The lessons of life that have helped to bring you to this point.

00:06:50.690 --> 00:06:52.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Wish them well.

00:06:54.930 --> 00:06:59.490 whether those lessons came from a place of hurt or healing.

00:07:02.810 --> 00:07:05.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: so simply breathe in and out.

00:07:08.610 --> 00:07:10.190 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Given thanks.

00:07:12.530 --> 00:07:18.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: do we say? And so it is. Oh, she and I'm.

00:07:22.180 --> 00:07:27.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So today, on our show we are going to be talking about

00:07:27.860 --> 00:07:30.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: womanist theology.

00:07:31.770 --> 00:07:35.170 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And why is that important for us to talk about

00:07:36.070 --> 00:07:41.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: for me. It's important to talk about, because it comes from a a term

00:07:41.660 --> 00:07:47.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that Alice Walker coined in her book in search of my mother's garden.

00:07:47.520 --> 00:07:58.380 So, in short, she says that a woman is is an individual who focuses on issues that are specific to black women in particular, but it also addresses issues of race.

00:07:58.780 --> 00:07:59.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: glass.

00:07:59.820 --> 00:08:05.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and gender, and it encompasses tradition, community, and spirituality.

00:08:07.110 --> 00:08:13.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Why one? This theology is a ported to me is because, as an individual

00:08:13.400 --> 00:08:26.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: who identifies and who preaches from the Christian context. I also need to find myself in a Christianity that is steeped and white supremacy

00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:27.860 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and patriarchy.

00:08:28.860 --> 00:08:30.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How do I fit into that picture?

00:08:31.300 --> 00:08:46.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I for one think that religion, particularly Christianity, because I can't speak about any other in the way that I can. Christianity, I think it's done a lot to harm us to harm us as women

00:08:46.220 --> 00:09:01.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to harm us as women of color to harm us just in general. If you know a bit about me, you know that before I return back to doing this work on dismantling racism, I first began

00:09:01.620 --> 00:09:09.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to do work on the wounds of religion, because I think that there are some ways that our religion oppresses us.

00:09:09.640 --> 00:09:13.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And what's interesting, I think those of us who are women.

00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:21.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and those of us who identify as black as well and as people of color. We actually

00:09:21.190 --> 00:09:29.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we actually do a lot to perpetuate racism and sexism in this religion that we love

00:09:30.950 --> 00:09:35.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because we refuse to examine religious text

00:09:35.510 --> 00:09:45.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: from a critical and historical method. We believe whatever we have been told, and we think that if we question it.

00:09:45.690 --> 00:09:50.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we are setting. and we're black. We're being blast from us.

00:09:50.720 --> 00:10:06.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, I, for one thing, if you can't question, Whatever your religion is, there's something wrong with that religion. and I also think that God, who will I identify as as the one who holds me.

00:10:06.880 --> 00:10:18.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It keeps me and creates me. That's the name that I use, but I use many other names to describe God as well, but I think that if that particular entity

00:10:18.460 --> 00:10:23.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: was so narrow-minded that I couldn't question anything

00:10:23.450 --> 00:10:28.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that's not the entity that I would actually be serving, or believe it.

00:10:29.060 --> 00:10:33.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because I believe that the God I serve is big enough

00:10:33.620 --> 00:10:46.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to handle my questions, and to bring me to a place of understanding me to a place of understanding that may or may not be based on what someone has taught me.

00:10:46.780 --> 00:10:50.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: what some pastor says, or what some preset

00:10:50.240 --> 00:11:01.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is. Not that those people are not valuable, because, hey? I'm a pastor. Of course I think what I say is valuable, but I also think you have to have your own relationship.

00:11:01.930 --> 00:11:08.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and you must be able to see yourself in whatever religious context

00:11:08.740 --> 00:11:10.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you find yourself in.

00:11:10.740 --> 00:11:18.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because if you can't, it is the wrong Religion is the wrong belief for you.

00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:23.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because the one who created us created each of us

00:11:24.010 --> 00:11:28.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: in that image of goodness, love, and light.

00:11:29.160 --> 00:11:34.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And if your religion tells you something different. it's a wound.

00:11:34.340 --> 00:11:42.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and it's not the religion for you. So today I'm really excited to talk with my guest about womanist theology.

00:11:43.520 --> 00:11:48.130 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What does it really really mean? How do we get to the depths

00:11:48.420 --> 00:11:52.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: of finding ourselves in Scripture.

00:11:52.090 --> 00:11:56.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So my guest today is the Reverend Katherine coming.

00:11:56.120 --> 00:12:12.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Now there's a lot that I can say to you about the Reverend Katherine coming, but just know this: that she is a fellow clergy sister. She is a a pastor in the Wesley United Methodist Church.

00:12:12.790 --> 00:12:26.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That's the church that she pastors, but she is also the president of the Pastors Council in Springfield, Massachusetts. Now, what I really want to share with you is this idea of?

00:12:28.380 --> 00:12:33.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: There are 6 degrees of separation between all of us.

00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:39.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and I want to share the importance of how we can connect with someone.

00:12:39.070 --> 00:12:49.310 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and they can become kindred spirits and little of no time. I met Katherine, I think maybe a year or so ago, and I met her at a vigil

00:12:49.470 --> 00:12:58.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: in which a young man was unfortunately shot by the police, and he had a a mental health illness, and we were both at the vigil.

00:12:59.220 --> 00:13:10.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: so I met her, and we said we would get together, and we talk well fast forward it. I I think a year or so it passed before we got together to talk. But when we did.

00:13:10.510 --> 00:13:24.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: what is amazing is that we found out because she's working on her doctorate at methods, Theological Seminary, or in woman is preaching. We found out that I actually went to high school

00:13:24.970 --> 00:13:34.170 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and was friends with one of her cousins. She actually lived 2 streets over from where my aunt lived in Memphis, Tennessee.

00:13:34.330 --> 00:13:45.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and we just had all of these other connections. And then, when we were talking yesterday, she asked me a question whether I knew Alvin.

00:13:45.230 --> 00:14:00.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Of course that's my brother. So I have to tell you. It is a really really small world. That's why you gotta be careful what you're doing out here, because you never know who knows you. So I want to just welcome to the show today when we come back

00:14:01.060 --> 00:14:02.380 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: from the break

00:14:02.430 --> 00:14:25.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: my my colleague and my my my friend, and my new new new kindred sister. I want to welcome the Reverend Katherine coming to the show. So we're gonna take a quick break. And when we come back we're going to get into a deep and inspiring conversation with this sister. We'll be right back with the dispensal racism show.

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00:16:39.610 --> 00:16:45.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're back with the dismantle racism. Show my guest today is the Reverend Katherine coming

00:16:46.220 --> 00:17:02.780 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: so so excited to have you on the show, and i'm delighted about this conversation that we're going to get into on woman is theology. But you know I I usually start by asking people

00:17:02.780 --> 00:17:22.619 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: what grounds them in the work that you're doing, and we cannot assume that just because one is a pastor, that they're grounded by the same thing. So what is it that keep you that like really keeps you going because you, to a lot of work, and you and I are both out there in the community like we said, we're at a visual.

00:17:22.710 --> 00:17:25.339 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It's praying, doing this, doing that. So

00:17:25.490 --> 00:17:26.700 what keeps you going?

00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:54.960 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Thank you so much. Dr. Carollyn really appreciate that fabulous Intro. All right. What keeps me going is really God's love, you know, as I think, about the commandments, and you think about the totality of the word and the good news. It just comes back to this radical revolutionary name, Jesus Nazareth in the Upper Panhandle of Africa. And so I identify with

00:17:55.000 --> 00:18:12.400 Rev. Catharine Cummings: who he is, and how God called me to follow in Jesus's footsteps. And he was a a a love revolutionary. And so my greatest heroes and she roles of the Faith in the twentieth century even

00:18:12.670 --> 00:18:30.200 Rev. Catharine Cummings: follow follow the same footsteps. And so that's what grounds me? It's just that love can redeem all things, and in part of loving well is justice and equity, as well as reducing and mitigating fear

00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:36.200 Rev. Catharine Cummings: and aversion to others who don't look like you. And then, then, of course, the self love.

00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:53.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: which is still a a, a, a work in progress, right that that even as we're going on to perfection and growing and grace. We still find those personal things, and say out that I got room to grow. That's right. That's right, you know

00:18:53.560 --> 00:19:20.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: it is so interesting that you describe Jesus as a revolutionary right? Because I when I am preaching, I always say, say, I know we were kind of spirits for another reason, and whenever i'm preaching, I always refer to Jesus as the radical revolutionary Jesus, because when we paint this picture of of Jesus, just as, oh, Jesus came to set us free, and Jesus, he'll Jesus, did this. Jesus was always outside of the bounds.

00:19:20.620 --> 00:19:29.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, not like like pushing, pushing, and loving everybody. And we sort of miss that message, and and then we want to preach.

00:19:30.060 --> 00:19:42.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: preach, you know, or evangelize, or have text, and say that we're supposed to be enslaved, and that could not possibly be true. But I want to ask you something.

00:19:43.300 --> 00:19:44.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I want to find out

00:19:45.010 --> 00:19:52.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: how you got interested. and really just this connectedness with

00:19:53.200 --> 00:20:02.170 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: racial equity with woman is theology, because your background from conversations that you and I have you, Are

00:20:03.870 --> 00:20:06.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you your by racial.

00:20:06.870 --> 00:20:12.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and you come from a black family and Irish family.

00:20:12.830 --> 00:20:29.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So what a combination! An Irish Catholic, no less so you found yourself moving from this place of Catholicism. So a Methodist and some more in between there. So there's a whole bunch you could tell us. So what

00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:34.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: led you to this place of wanting to focus on this

00:20:34.900 --> 00:20:50.000 Rev. Catharine Cummings: sure growing up. I was going to church with my father, and as an Irish Catholic. Of course we went to church with him, and you know, being one of 2 families out of maybe 300.

00:20:50.000 --> 00:21:12.170 Rev. Catharine Cummings: I noticed there were differences along the way, and as I got older, of course you notice more and more differences on how you treat it, and not just there in the public school systems as well that you know certain girls have certain privileges. So in in the Catholic Church. I had some discrimination.

00:21:12.170 --> 00:21:36.410 Rev. Catharine Cummings: as we were coming for confirmation around 14 years old, and by now i'm already a black belt in Karate and Cairo, who's the other young lady at the time from the other black family. It just seemed like we were getting haste through this process of confirmation, and just asked to do so much more work than our white brothers and sisters.

00:21:36.410 --> 00:21:55.340 Rev. Catharine Cummings: And I had to ask myself, okay, is it because i'm black, or is it because i'm a one, because I noticed my my God, friends, we grew up with our and asked to do as much work as we are doing right. And so that was just one of many instances where I noticed that.

00:21:55.340 --> 00:22:15.100 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Hey, racism is alive and well, and you know the difference between people who love you, and who care about you, who happen to be white versus those who may not know you, and have the same love for you, and treat you in different ways, and it's not con ruin.

00:22:15.610 --> 00:22:18.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So let me ask you something, because

00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:27.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: it so that happened to you at 14. But I have met many people who are biracial

00:22:27.300 --> 00:22:31.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and their I racial identity. Development at that age

00:22:32.290 --> 00:22:37.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is not so solidified that they start that they recognize

00:22:37.690 --> 00:22:46.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that is racism, and what they do is they? They own it as a part of them. But there must be something wrong with me. So what do you think

00:22:46.710 --> 00:22:54.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: helped you to to say, Wait a minute, Wait a minute. I can't own this, that this is about the other person and not about me

00:22:54.500 --> 00:23:05.500 Rev. Catharine Cummings: absolutely. I think a lot of it had to do with. Brought up in a strong black culture. My mom is one of 16 who grew up on a farm.

00:23:05.500 --> 00:23:22.670 Rev. Catharine Cummings: and who stress education as a way to advance and give a head. And so the issues of race and and gender as well, but more so. Race popped up all throughout my upbringing, really starting in preschool

00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:42.140 Rev. Catharine Cummings: and in early elementary. And so when I noticed that I was being treated black as a black kid as a non-white kid I I could totally identify with this is what my mom is talking about on her job. This is why she comes home and takes notes as the first black hit charged Nurse

00:23:42.140 --> 00:24:00.220 Rev. Catharine Cummings: and St. Joseph Hospital, which is now bought out by saying You right. This is why, you know she's always talking about doing our best and covering her assignments and following through what we're we're supposed to do, and so I credit it with having a strong but like mother.

00:24:00.220 --> 00:24:11.190 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Umhm, and older sister, who helped to guide us, and even my older sister said to my dad one day, and she's 14 years older, she said, John, Don't you think

00:24:11.190 --> 00:24:25.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you should be taking the kids to the the Black Catholic Church? August? Yes, yes, but she recognize right right right? Right. That is so beautiful that that you that

00:24:25.710 --> 00:24:34.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that she would even say that to him right don't You think because sometimes it just takes one person to get us thinking so.

00:24:34.370 --> 00:24:39.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So now, Catherine, you know here you are

00:24:39.990 --> 00:24:45.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you your your call to go to to Divinity School? And you went to Harvard.

00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:59.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Was that your first introduction to woman is theology. Were you interested in it, then? How did it come that you said, Look, i'm going to try to find us in this here Bible.

00:24:59.320 --> 00:25:29.110 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Right? I'm so glad you asked that actually it Wasn't. My first introduction to woman is theology. My first introduction was at Mississippi, Boulevard Christian church in Memphis, Tennessee, in my early twenties, and there Pastor Frank Anthony Thomas, Dr. Valer Bridgman, Dr. Barbara Holmes, and so many other professors will come and preachers will come and preach this radical message that he had not heard growing up in Catholic Church. Right?

00:25:29.110 --> 00:25:33.160 Rev. Catharine Cummings: I'm grateful that I didn't get a lot of bad theology

00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:54.590 Rev. Catharine Cummings: growing up, but as far as the social gospel aspect, as far as social justice and racial reconciliation, and really talking about the things that hit close to home. It wasn't as embraced throughout the year, if you know what i'm saying, it might have been one or 2 things. So my first

00:25:55.740 --> 00:26:07.500 Rev. Catharine Cummings: really engagement where woman is. Theology was when I returned to undergrad, actually after a Quinton school and out of the audit classes at the seminary.

00:26:07.500 --> 00:26:22.910 Rev. Catharine Cummings: and Dr. Holmes just say, cat, how many class do you want to take? Just come and got called you? Sit down, come and sit and learn from us, and it really saved me because the school I went to was a Southern Baptist.

00:26:22.980 --> 00:26:26.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So so what did it? What did it do to your

00:26:26.760 --> 00:26:40.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Psyche when you first began to examine the Bible from a womanist perspective, because, you know, when we go to Divinity school it opens us up to a whole bunch of things that we not taught in church, and we go. Oh.

00:26:40.890 --> 00:26:49.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Oh, oh, well, that's Scripture. So what did it do to your your Psyche and your spiritual development to expand.

00:26:49.300 --> 00:26:55.410 Rev. Catharine Cummings: I'm so glad you asked it At first it was just like, Wow! I'm seeing all of this new

00:26:55.550 --> 00:27:10.210 Rev. Catharine Cummings: aspects of the Bible, and seeing the context and hearing interpretations, not just from white scholars, but black and brown scholars and women scholars right? And so the interpretation is different.

00:27:10.210 --> 00:27:27.570 Rev. Catharine Cummings: and I will tell you after 2 classes that I felt my mind just breaking open, and what some people would call a crisis of fate right? And it it really was expanding my mind from the smaller frame of how God had been in a box

00:27:27.650 --> 00:27:40.100 Rev. Catharine Cummings: particularly racially, and open it it to say, No, Everyone is created in the image of God, and guess what we can show you from start to finish, from Genesis

00:27:40.120 --> 00:27:58.770 Rev. Catharine Cummings: to Revelation how that even looks like me right, and i'm like. Wow, it it it was. It was a very transformative experience. And so we're gonna take a break in just a few minutes. But when we come back. I'd like you to to

00:27:58.860 --> 00:28:13.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: share with us a little bit more about how you see a woman is the allergy. What what your definition of it is. I gave a little bit in the beginning what your definition is, and then how you use

00:28:13.100 --> 00:28:26.130 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: woman is theology, and you're preaching because your doctorate is on woman is preaching right? So how do you use those stories and finding us to preach a context that is relevant

00:28:26.260 --> 00:28:38.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: for us as women of color in in the Bible. So we're gonna be right back with my guest today. The Reverend Katherine Cummings. I am your host, the Reverend Dr. Tlc. Will be right back.

00:28:40.270 --> 00:28:54.600 Are you passionate about the conversation around racism? Hi! I'm. Reverend Dr. Tlc. Host of the disnatural racism show which airs every Thursday at 11 a M. Eastern on talk radio, dot n wise them

00:28:54.600 --> 00:29:07.140 join me and my amazing guest. As we discussed ways to uncover dismantle and eradicate racism. That's Thursdays at 110'clock a. M. On talk, radio and Nyc.

00:29:09.760 --> 00:29:37.580 In that towards the moment world you may have many unanswered questions regarding your health. Are you looking to live a healthier lifestyle. Do you have a desire to learn more about mental health, and enhance your quality of life? Or do you just want to participate in self-understanding and awareness. I'm Frank R. Harrison, host of Frank about health and each Thursday I will tackle these questions and work to enlighten you tune in every 3 day 5 P. M. On talk radio and Nyc and I will be frank about help to advocate for all of us

00:29:42.840 --> 00:30:06.730 everybody it's. Tommy. Gee, the non-profit sector connector coming at you from my attic each week here on top radio and ny z I hosted program for lambda in focus. Non-profits in cocktails each and every day, and it's my focus to help them amplify their message and tell their story. Listen: each week at 10 a. M. Eastern standard time until 11. A. M. Is from standing time right here on talk radio, Dot Nyc.

00:30:07.940 --> 00:30:18.420 You're listening to talk radio and Yc. At Www: talk radio and live, c. Now broadcasting 24 h a day.

00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:19.890 The

00:30:40.120 --> 00:30:46.420 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're back with my guest today. The Reverend Katherine coming, and we are talking about woman is theology.

00:30:46.450 --> 00:31:00.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So. Rev. Tell us a little bit about how you understand Woman is theology, and how you use it in the context of your preaching to your congregation, or wherever you find yourself spreading the word

00:31:00.620 --> 00:31:18.880 Rev. Catharine Cummings: absolutely. For me, woman is theology centers the lived experience of black women and their spirituality. And so, when you start with women in the center as a focal point versus the hierarchy.

00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:28.270 Rev. Catharine Cummings: patriarch, oracle, racist, or or any other institutional view. When you start from some of the most marginalized.

00:31:28.270 --> 00:31:57.580 Rev. Catharine Cummings: and you look from their perspective. You're able to really not leave anyone out. You're able to be more inclusive. And so, as first introduced to black liberation theology with James Cone, and so many others coming out of the sixties and seventies and the civil rights movement that really firm blackness, black people and our struggle it it it centered more so on the black struggle.

00:31:57.580 --> 00:32:13.060 Rev. Catharine Cummings: and particularly blackmail leadership, which still kind of kept re ascribing sexism and viewpoints. Yes, and woman is served as a corrective to say, Hold up, brother!

00:32:13.060 --> 00:32:36.740 Rev. Catharine Cummings: We're all in the struggle. We're struggling as black people, but we also have to focus on the family, which means including women and children. And so woman is a looks at loving the folk loving all the people right, coming from that viewpoint. So that's why I love about women. Right? Right? So so how do you use it

00:32:36.740 --> 00:32:46.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: in the context of your preaching? What what might be some of the stories that you pull from, you know, to preach about.

00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:48.860 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Absolutely so.

00:32:48.860 --> 00:33:18.350 Rev. Catharine Cummings: So what a one of the popular ones nowadays is, You know, Dolores Williams came out with a wonderful exploration of Hagar in the Bible, and when we look at looking at the Bible from a womanist lens or interpretive viewpoint centering the most marginalized person, instead of the story being so focused on Abraham and Sarah, and they're trying to follow God.

00:33:18.620 --> 00:33:35.700 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Try to be obedient. Leaving their homeland and following God's voice, there was also a promise that you'll have a child, and we know in that story that oftentimes as we do as humans do. We like to help God out right.

00:33:37.860 --> 00:34:01.890 Rev. Catharine Cummings: You know what I'm saying we like to Cisco with what's going on, and instead of them being faithful to how God said to do it. Sarah and Abra had a bright idea that that okay, instead, you could have a a a child for my slave child, and that's when Sarah introduced him to her servant slave girl.

00:34:01.890 --> 00:34:15.000 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Hagar, and he had a child through her. And so how can you find good news and such a story like this where you see Sarah and and hey, guys should have been on the same side.

00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:23.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right? Right? That's right, you know. And when you look at the stories like Well, you know.

00:34:24.270 --> 00:34:52.110 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Heygar was an Egyptian woman, and so she was from a different part of Africa. So you're already seeing nuances of class and gender going on age. She wasn't an age and an ability to take care of herself. She had to stay with them. So even when Hagar had her baby. She ran away in the wilderness. She cries out to God right right! She said. I don't want to see my son die here in the wilderness.

00:34:52.110 --> 00:34:54.840 Rev. Catharine Cummings: and guess what God says the angel, the Lord.

00:34:55.139 --> 00:35:06.560 Rev. Catharine Cummings: and she names God. The very first person of Bible to name God is an Egyptian woman, and it's so isn't that beautiful. Thank you. But but her story is left out.

00:35:06.770 --> 00:35:13.380 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yeah, yeah. So you just drop some knowledge, all people there, and what I always say to people. It's like

00:35:13.610 --> 00:35:19.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: God promise Heygar something, too. So we are. We don't just forget what that from. Take our

00:35:19.340 --> 00:35:22.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because you're looking at somebody else's story.

00:35:22.980 --> 00:35:29.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So tell me I love the story of of Hagar as holding her up as a symbol.

00:35:29.970 --> 00:35:31.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and woman is theology.

00:35:32.080 --> 00:35:41.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is is there another woman that you would point to that. We don't often think about who is a representation of our story.

00:35:41.780 --> 00:35:46.640 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Sure, when we think about Jesus interacting with

00:35:46.690 --> 00:35:51.030 Rev. Catharine Cummings: the Sarah Phoenician woman right, and she.

00:35:51.030 --> 00:36:12.920 Rev. Catharine Cummings: thanks to Jesus, and she wants her child to be healed. Her child is in need, and we know moms will do anything for their children. And so she crossed boundaries and norms of the day, where women weren't supposed to talk women openly like now, unless you were a family. And she said, hey, I need a blessed for my child. And Jesus is

00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:19.880 Rev. Catharine Cummings: saying, hey, I we're not gonna waste anything on on those who are not part of the the children is real like.

00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:36.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and what is she? The with the woman is S. That most black women have. She that's right. That's right. She talks back to Jesus exactly, and got what she wanted right. She got it. I want to. I want to pause on something right here for a minute. We don't want to talk about this

00:36:36.740 --> 00:36:42.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Jesus right there. That was a little racism right there like. Now I ask for you.

00:36:42.350 --> 00:36:50.360 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and if we want to be true about it, we need to say, do you say I didn't come for you? And then when she said, oh, but you did

00:36:50.730 --> 00:36:51.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: right.

00:36:51.960 --> 00:37:09.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So she called Jesus out in that moment that she might already know what he was not do I don't know but there, right. But the fact is, he said. I didn't come from you for you, and we need to learn in those moments that we had a voice. We had have a boys.

00:37:09.940 --> 00:37:15.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and so Jesus could demonstrate for the disciples. Well, hey, wait a minute now wait a minute.

00:37:15.970 --> 00:37:31.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I need to pay attention to this woman. Love it right, and even Jesus, you see, grows because Jesus was a product of his environment in it context, right? So Israel and the Samaritans, they were like

00:37:31.720 --> 00:37:44.020 Rev. Catharine Cummings: cousins. But you know how cousins over there. You don't deal with right right? Right they always agree with. And so you you forget about those cousins

00:37:44.170 --> 00:38:00.660 Rev. Catharine Cummings: you know they they don't believe exactly the same way we do, and we feel more morally superior. And yet because she clapped back at Jesus and said, Even the dogs, he from the massive table he came to a a greater appreciation of

00:38:01.500 --> 00:38:03.140 Rev. Catharine Cummings: It's because of your faith.

00:38:03.140 --> 00:38:24.890 Rev. Catharine Cummings: That's right, Your daughter, that's right, and that's the the thing about woman is theology. It's because of your faith that your heel it's because of your work and your service and your love as black women to look after the whole community to look after the least the last and the laws, and to say you are valuable to me, and you're valuable to God.

00:38:24.890 --> 00:38:28.190 Rev. Catharine Cummings: and that we can argue

00:38:28.410 --> 00:38:43.860 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: so. So I wonder, speaking of that word, argue, have you received? Push back when you're preaching from a woman's lens, particularly if you are preaching from a woman this lens and spaces that the people don't look like us.

00:38:44.410 --> 00:39:00.280 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Yes, I served a 2 point. Charge for a while in a predominantly white congregation as well. So both of my congregations at the time across cultural cause, i'm, by racial, and you know, so I

00:39:00.300 --> 00:39:02.680 Rev. Catharine Cummings: you know the word is the word.

00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:13.410 Rev. Catharine Cummings: you know, and I know I was called and sent to that church just as much as I called it, sent to the church at now, and so I was there first, black pastor.

00:39:13.410 --> 00:39:23.360 Rev. Catharine Cummings: and I was also, i'm sure, the youngest pastor that they had, and it was challenging because it put the heart right because I was calling out racism.

00:39:23.370 --> 00:39:27.420 Rev. Catharine Cummings: But I was also calling out in a rural town.

00:39:27.450 --> 00:39:40.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I was also calling out sexes in the classes right? Right? And that's the thing about woman. Is theology right? It it. It really does break down all these different levels because you can't

00:39:40.640 --> 00:39:50.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: address patriarchy without addressing woman is, I mean, you can't address womanism without addressing the patriarchy. That's there. It was interesting.

00:39:50.420 --> 00:39:56.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you know. You and I have had these conversations about ways in which we.

00:39:56.200 --> 00:39:59.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: as people of color, we perpetuate

00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:01.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: of racist

00:40:01.840 --> 00:40:10.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Christian belief. So can you talk about that a little bit about some ways in which we ourselves kind of perpetuate this

00:40:10.470 --> 00:40:17.220 Rev. Catharine Cummings: because it's it's. It's easy to do because we don't realize

00:40:17.430 --> 00:40:22.800 Rev. Catharine Cummings: that we live in such a white supremacist culture.

00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:39.520 Rev. Catharine Cummings: and because you live in that that fish bowl we all live in that fish bowl. White folks are affected. Black and brown folks are. The immigrants are affected, and so you can see now today that we have Latino brothers and sisters

00:40:39.770 --> 00:40:49.440 Rev. Catharine Cummings: who subscribe to a more radicalized Christian Nationalist point of view, that we've seen from our Kkk

00:40:49.700 --> 00:41:05.750 Rev. Catharine Cummings: folks from Tennessee and other places in the country, right? And so it happens to all of us because it's it's taught. It's in the culture. It's in the way that we read. So if I'm. Taught as a Western person to read with the text.

00:41:05.750 --> 00:41:34.600 Rev. Catharine Cummings: it's usually for us, particularly Americans, that we are not to read against the text. We're not supposed to question the text right right, whatever the text says, that's what it is, and that is the truth, right? But we learned in a elementary school, middle school, high school, college, and a special grad school. The critical thinking is one of the the main strategies of how we move forward as a people. And when you use the same

00:41:34.600 --> 00:41:53.460 Rev. Catharine Cummings: literary criticism that you would in English class and apply to the Bible. It it it works when you say, when you apply the same historical criticism, post-colonial criticism it still applies to the Bible, and it still applies to our lived. But here's the thing, though.

00:41:53.460 --> 00:42:02.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yeah, people don't look critically even at at history, and what they're taught in school that people just follow blindly.

00:42:02.380 --> 00:42:06.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and that's why it's important for us to examine what's underneath

00:42:06.520 --> 00:42:10.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the tech right. So I then

00:42:10.690 --> 00:42:30.630 Rev. Catharine Cummings: we examine what's underneath the text, but we also have to understand and examine what's underneath our context. Yes, I disentangle debunk, and demystify racism and sexism in my own life. When I start to be critical of how am I sexes and races.

00:42:30.630 --> 00:42:33.470 Rev. Catharine Cummings: or how do I perpetuate Colorist

00:42:33.500 --> 00:42:49.380 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: viewpoint? Well, so so I I want to just say this: I know we are going to have to go to work to break. But 2 things come to mind right away when I think about the ways in which we perpetuate. Hopefully, i'm not going to step on your toes if you do it. But

00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:57.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: always when people are talking, my father got Father Guy, Father God, Father God! I'm like God is the Spirit. God is need the male

00:42:57.240 --> 00:43:16.590 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: right genderless. And in fact, maybe God is not binary, you know, if we try to think about it right well, I know some folks turn it over right now, as as i'm saying, you know it. But but when we do things like that, or, secondly, when we use this language. This is a really big way.

00:43:16.830 --> 00:43:20.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We perpetuate racism

00:43:20.510 --> 00:43:23.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: when we're talking about

00:43:23.370 --> 00:43:25.110 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: purity

00:43:25.140 --> 00:43:30.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: being white, you know I love love love. Shawn Paste makes you rest in peace.

00:43:30.810 --> 00:43:48.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But there's a song that she sings where she talks about. We're saying, there's a leak in this old building, and then there's this one phrase that she has, and there was a time I used to be into it. But she, she, she says.

00:43:48.250 --> 00:43:58.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: god's! Chemical Laboratory of Redemption took my black soul dipped it in red blood, and I came out white as snow.

00:43:59.930 --> 00:44:05.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That racism right in there all in there

00:44:05.430 --> 00:44:13.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I saw, because look, we're good with the way of words I mean really oh, yes, the way she fines that with those words I mean i'm on she did that.

00:44:14.210 --> 00:44:16.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But my black soul.

00:44:17.010 --> 00:44:18.120 Rev. Catharine Cummings: My God!

00:44:19.900 --> 00:44:23.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Oh, I I just it just came out. Why, the snow

00:44:24.130 --> 00:44:42.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: right so internalize racism the way we talk about that stuff The angels got to be in all white and all this. So there are ways in which we need to learn. That's right how to change the narrative. Now one other quick thing

00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:46.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: when we talk about this one. But this theology

00:44:47.500 --> 00:45:00.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we always in in many churches. We believe that there should be a man who is the head of us. I can't tell you. People have asked me. I say, i'm the pastor of such a well. Who's your pastor on the pastor.

00:45:01.270 --> 00:45:04.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: right? But there has to be

00:45:04.820 --> 00:45:23.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: discovery. So when we look at what this theology we get to find ourselves as women, and we get to find ourselves as pipe women. We have to take a quick break, but when I come back I want to hear a little bit about your dissertation and what you are discovering, and what you're doing

00:45:23.520 --> 00:45:33.670 with your woman is preaching because that's your focus. So we're gonna be right back. This is the dismantle racism. Show my guest today is the Reverend Katherine coming?

00:45:36.810 --> 00:46:00.690 Hey, everybody! It's Tommy deed and non-profit sector connector coming at you from my adding each week here on top radio and ny Z I hosted program for lambda game Focus non-profits in cocktails each and every day and it's my focus to help them amplify their message and tell their story. Listen: each week at 10 a. M. Eastern standard time until 11. A. M. Is from standing time right here on talk radio and myc

00:46:01.750 --> 00:46:29.540 in a post-provent world. You may have many unanswered questions regarding your health. Are you looking to live a healthier lifestyle? Do you have a desire to learn more about mental health, and enhance your quality of life? Or do you just want to participate in self-understanding and awareness i'm Frank R. Harrison, host of Frank about health and each Thursday I will tackle these questions and work to enlighten you. Tune in everyday 5 P. M. On talk radio and Nyc. And I will be Frank about help to advocate for all of us.

00:46:33.050 --> 00:47:03.340 Are you a conscious Co-creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness? I'm. Sam Leibowitz, your conscious consultant. and on my show, the conscious consultant hour awakening humanity, we will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen. Live at our new time on Thursdays at 12, noon, Eastern time. That's the conscious consultant hour awakening humanity. Thursday's 12 noon on talk radio. Nyc.

00:47:07.720 --> 00:47:17.650 You're listening to talk radio and Yc. At Ww: talk radio and Yc: now broadcasting 24 h a day.

00:47:23.700 --> 00:47:24.270 I

00:47:38.630 --> 00:47:50.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're back with Katherine coming. So, Kathry, we're talking about woman is theology, and woman is preaching. Tell me about your dissertation and what you're doing.

00:47:50.670 --> 00:48:09.370 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Absolutely. So i'm actually in the proposal phase. So thank you for asking. I'm, looking at examining the Biblical text through a woman's lens and preaching narrative sermons, and so illustrating how woman is a works where there are women in the text

00:48:09.370 --> 00:48:19.040 Rev. Catharine Cummings: and even in text, where you don't see any women. And how do you address aims of womenism, survival justice, and and so forth.

00:48:19.040 --> 00:48:37.070 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Even when you don't see women in the tech. So that's what i'm trying to go for. Thankfully, my advisor is excited about it, and i'm looking at doing that from a narrative preaching land. So it'll be a great next year, writing and reading and learning more.

00:48:38.550 --> 00:48:46.390 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, God bless you on that journey, because I know how that is. But now, when you say, when you don't see women

00:48:47.290 --> 00:48:57.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and the text, talk to me a little bit about, maybe one or 2 stories where you can see that woman is lens right when there's no woman who's even present there.

00:48:57.460 --> 00:49:17.300 Rev. Catharine Cummings: sure. So oftentimes you can see in many, many Biblical texts, unnamed persons, and they are still very vital to the narrative, to the story of how God continues to deliver us. Save us from whatever is going on in that text.

00:49:17.420 --> 00:49:26.780 Rev. Catharine Cummings: But you'll also find there are places where men are actually doing the Gospel doing the work of good news

00:49:26.780 --> 00:49:39.490 Rev. Catharine Cummings: through stepping up and doing those serving aspects. So, for example, if you look at some most of the songs anywhere where it says, God is my help, where we look at

00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:46.130 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Eve being to help me to Adam right that that women are

00:49:46.200 --> 00:50:10.560 Rev. Catharine Cummings: are compared to to God and that helping function, and how God will rescue Guys people and will raise up sons and daughters. And so, even if it's not explicitly in the text, where are places where life is preserved, you know it's lifted where justice is raised. Those are things that a woman's point of view would would look for.

00:50:10.560 --> 00:50:22.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hmm. I so appreciate that you are focusing on this, and I think about When I was in Divinity school I took a class called Women's Ways of preaching.

00:50:22.290 --> 00:50:36.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: but it was about text of Tara about this. It didn't focus on the woman's point of view, but it just talked about those women, and I know those texts of terror who was something, you know, and we don't often preach

00:50:36.600 --> 00:50:49.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: on those things, not in the ways in which, when we think about those text, we talk about what was happening with the men and not with the women. And so I really appreciate this, this focus

00:50:49.120 --> 00:51:08.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: on that. And so I wish you well on your journey as you're continuing to explore this. So what would be maybe one or 2 books for the person who has never heard of woman as theology, or maybe even if they have. But they want to learn more. What would be some books that you'd recommend.

00:51:08.450 --> 00:51:19.930 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Sure, I would definitely recommend Kimberly Johnson. The woman is preacher. She totally explicates woman. Is text that include

00:51:20.250 --> 00:51:44.460 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Melva Samson, pre-changing a Stewart some some of the great names and and and women preachers. Today she examines their preaching, and let you know what type of woman's values are being left lifted up as well as the strategies that they use rhetorically.

00:51:44.460 --> 00:51:57.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and so she does a fine job of lifting that up. She's a mass communications major, and teaching at Tennessee State University the real T. As you for those of us.

00:51:58.870 --> 00:52:05.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you just gotta do that. Anybody that you. We always got to be in there. Just

00:52:05.620 --> 00:52:07.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we we gotta put our

00:52:07.740 --> 00:52:22.930 Rev. Catharine Cummings: I'm: not so sorry in there, right? It's so far it's okay. No, I would also recommend a woman to S. And talk back. I believe that's by Mr. Jay Minor. My God! And this is Mrs. Smith. It could. Yeah, Missy Smith.

00:52:22.930 --> 00:52:38.050 Rev. Catharine Cummings: It is amazing. And when we talked about the talk back to Jesus. And so for if you want a a quick, deep dive into womanism and it's fresh. It's new. It's written in the last few years. That would be one to look for women in science and talk back.

00:52:38.120 --> 00:53:01.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Oh, I love that woman is sass right, and that comes directly from our culture, like you said. But but you know it's an older book, but we just use this book, maybe a several months ago in our Bible study, which was just a sister away by renewed. Now she goes deep to into our relationships

00:53:01.660 --> 00:53:10.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: with one of the other, and she is coming from that woman's perspective as well. I know that we'll see a book coming out of your dissertation.

00:53:10.670 --> 00:53:25.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hey, man, it ready. Get ready. Get ready. So I want to just ask you in our last few minutes together. Is there anything else that you would like to add that we Haven't discussed today. That would be important for our listeners.

00:53:25.730 --> 00:53:36.390 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Sure one is. Theology is also looking at ethics, so we would also want to be sure to address issues of intersectionality.

00:53:36.390 --> 00:53:51.870 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Now we have AI. We will be talking about issues of abortion and and women's issues so it's. It's a field that continues to evolve. But again, it's for the survival and wellness of the whole

00:53:51.900 --> 00:54:01.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: community, and it is the human race that they will look in at all right in our conversation today. I feel like

00:54:02.490 --> 00:54:19.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: again that that that you've given us information in terms of how we examine the Bible, that it could really support and and and help us with our own understanding of who we are. But we've also kind of talked about some ways that people really just use the Bible

00:54:19.910 --> 00:54:26.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: unconsciously. Yeah, and it wounds other people. And I think that

00:54:26.340 --> 00:54:27.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: honestly.

00:54:28.060 --> 00:54:33.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you know, I think in many ways, when we look at Christianity, it's a separatist religion.

00:54:33.730 --> 00:54:49.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and we need to be able to own that we need to own that that we are saying this group of people over here, unless you believe like this exactly like this. We we separate in ways that I think, limit God. So I believe

00:54:49.670 --> 00:54:50.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that

00:54:50.940 --> 00:55:03.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: if we're able to look at the Bible through a woman's perspective feminist perspective, if that's what people want to call it, even if we want to look at the Bible to see where people are in terms of sexuality.

00:55:03.460 --> 00:55:08.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, gender expression anytime. We decide to look

00:55:08.870 --> 00:55:16.130 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: critically at the Bible and historically at the Bible. They were opening people up to free them.

00:55:16.950 --> 00:55:21.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and we can still preach the good news by being exclusive.

00:55:21.500 --> 00:55:47.080 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Right? Absolutely absolutely, I would say, don't be afraid to question the Bible. Don't be afraid to question a word if there's something in you that says something that is not right, that that's the Holy Spirit saying, hey, look again, child, again over this, and if it's not inclusive, if it's not in love and justice, then it really is unchristian and unkind, and that you have to check your Christianity because

00:55:47.080 --> 00:55:58.770 Rev. Catharine Cummings: Evangelicals, particularly white Evangelicals and Nationalists, will not have the final. We we want Christianity to be about sharing the good news in word, Andy.

00:55:58.780 --> 00:55:59.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes.

00:55:59.820 --> 00:56:28.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, Reverend Katherine Cummings. Thank you so much for being on the show today. We have run out of time. I really appreciate that you would give up your time and join us. Want to thank you, the listeners for joining us. We don't go and subscribe to the dismantled Racism show. If you've not already done so on your favorite platform, and please stay tuned for the conscious consultant hour with Sam Leaveowitz, where he helps you to walk through life with the greatest of

00:56:28.810 --> 00:56:30.190 please enjoy.

00:56:30.700 --> 00:56:36.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: be well, be safe. Be encouraged until next time, Bye, for now