Fridays 12:00pm - 1:00pm (EDT)
WHAT WILL THE AUDIENCE LEARN?
Hear from an established expert that advises new start-ups in the ideation phase and more established start-ups on building to scale. As your company grows, how does your attitude and approach toward risks need to change?
In this episode, our guest Vince Cogan will talk about his experiences working in companies including SVB, Stripe, and Brex, and how he applies them in advising new and established startups in their approach to risk. We will discuss product-market fit, building to scale, and generally how advising start-ups is not unlike raising children - you can try to protect them from danger, but sometimes you have to let them make mistakes.
Vice Cogan joins Matthew in today’s episode. Vince is an attorney that Matthew has known for more than 15 years. He has had a career working for companies including SVB, Stripe, and Brex. Now, he has his own law practice. Vince started off his career in engineering. In law, he started off as an attorney in IP at a tech company. He always followed the dream of wanting to help build and scale companies. Vince and Mathew discuss Vince’s work at Silicon Valley Bank in 2008 during an interesting time in general, especially in finance. He speaks about the opportunity SVB took to grow over the next couple of years and looking at things optimistically. Vince speaks with Matthew on how that affected his mindset throughout his career. They also discuss what's recently happened to SVB. Vince says that there were some communication issues within the company through leaders. He mentions that in less than 48 hours that bank went from solvent to not existing anymore. Risk is a part of banking but filling the void he says is different.
Vince talks about his firm called Zero to One. He speaks about starting with early stages of a concept to then something that's a viable product. He says getting in really early in a company and getting them to a certain point is the fun part for him. Vince is focused on helping companies in their early stages to work on things from a legal standpoint and more. They discuss Vince’s experience working with the founders of Brex while they were still working from a living room when they were focused on VR. He explains how different Brex is compared to other financial service companies. Branding, titles, organization, and even roles change from when a company is first starting off, so you have to have a mindset of not clinging onto something and instead adapting. With his clientele, Vince speaks about how it started off as more of an informal advisory arrangement with companies. He mentions focusing on a critical part of a company when working with them and helping bring perspective on how and when to introduce different legal operational systems like onboarding and even balancing risk tolerance. One important factor can be having a very reputable accounting firm providing oversight and feedback. If you're building a social media platform, he says things may look a bit different. This may include getting a firm to do a data audit to process and handle personal information.
Matthew and Vince discuss companies finding their product market fit. Vince says that you have to go beyond focusing on a single product. This doesn't mean that you can't have one core product that represents your company and account for the bulk of your business. One example he mentions is Linkedin and how they provide more than just professional relationships with colleagues and clients. But they provide a recruiting platform as well. He says it's until you start to grow more where you understand the pressure, risks, and more. They discuss more on start up companies and new products. Vince says that discipline comes into play when understanding where there is a gap in the market.
Vince continues his conversation with Matthew about start up companies and finding their product market fit. He gives examples like GoPro and Stripe. Vince mentions GoPro as a product that found their product market fit successfully but had trouble expanding or reinventing themselves even more. Though it is very popular and used very widely. Vince speaks about companies having more than one product that help fill in some gaps and solutions where they can also find their ways into new markets. He uses Stripe and Google as some examples. Vince mentions being able to make mistakes but not the kinds that are unethical or irresponsible. Matthew brings up the Museum of failures. Before closing out the show, Vince says to go into your business with open eyes, have courage and optimism, get a lot of input from a lot of different places, and if you feel like your business needs to be put out there, build it and do what you need to manifest it. With this of course with what's ethical and legal.
00:00:25.500 --> 00:00:39.470 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Hi, there! Welcome to in Tang, if i'm your host, Matthew as well. My guest today is Vince Cogan Vince is an attorney that I have known for some 15 bus years. Wow! Where has the time gone?
00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:49.800 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And and he's had a a a real interesting career arc from being in house it Silicon Valley Bank, you know, some of you know, as Sbb.
00:00:49.860 --> 00:01:01.330 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: To stripe to his own practice, to to Brex, and is now launching a new firm called 0 to one legal.
00:01:03.130 --> 00:01:21.660 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Here on in tangible. We talk about the intangible aspects of business, and so Vince and I thought we would talk a bit about, of course, his career journey and and what happened with Sb. But also about a lot of the clients that both he and I frequently serve, which are
00:01:21.660 --> 00:01:35.390 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: startups at different stages and some of the guidance and thinking behind that. So, Vince welcome. Maybe you could start us off and and share a little bit about about your your career, Arc.
00:01:37.740 --> 00:01:39.070 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: God set yourself off mute.
00:01:41.760 --> 00:01:44.010 V Cogan: There we go. Can you hear me now?
00:01:44.330 --> 00:01:51.840 V Cogan: Okay, Great thanks, Matt. It it it has been a while, I think both of us look a little bit younger when we first.
00:01:51.980 --> 00:02:01.320 V Cogan: but you know I so it started off my career in engineering, for
00:02:01.410 --> 00:02:05.720 V Cogan: of doing what I do now just is going in house and and helping both.
00:02:06.410 --> 00:02:09.130 V Cogan: I started off with the attorney.
00:02:09.139 --> 00:02:17.480 V Cogan: most mostly focused in commercial practice, and IP at a tech company, and they wound up Silicon Valley Bank in June, 2,008, which
00:02:17.490 --> 00:02:21.230 V Cogan: is a really interesting time to be joining a a financial institution.
00:02:22.430 --> 00:02:29.990 V Cogan: but have always kind of followed this this dream of wanting to to help build and scale companies have been really fortunate
00:02:30.090 --> 00:02:34.300 V Cogan: to be able to work with with some of the best companies, especially in in tech with
00:02:34.540 --> 00:02:40.990 V Cogan: right right. but also some of the companies that I work with now that are in and outside of in tech
00:02:41.140 --> 00:02:49.560 V Cogan: scaling, and I'm really helping them to to build smartly as opposed to just growing for the
00:02:50.180 --> 00:02:51.840 V Cogan: But thanks for having me on the show.
00:02:56.230 --> 00:02:59.220 V Cogan: I think you're muted now.
00:02:59.620 --> 00:03:15.620 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I'm so bad at multitasking that you know you never. You get that mute, and you forget to turn it back on. It's for us so great to have you. Thanks, thanks so much for for being here. I I I think you know you alluded to the first thing I want to chat about with you, which is.
00:03:15.620 --> 00:03:23.410 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, those early days at Silicon Valley Bank in 2,008 right right when when things were all going
00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:31.420 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: going south for most of us. You know what was going on at Silicon Valley Bank there, and and what we? What were you doing there?
00:03:31.580 --> 00:03:42.580 V Cogan: Yeah. So so it was a pretty impressive time frankly to be at the bank, the the as you you know, you and I both alluded to. The world was changing pretty rapidly.
00:03:43.090 --> 00:03:50.570 V Cogan: I think the defining moment for our Silicon Valley wasn't necessarily lean in for some of the other
00:03:51.340 --> 00:03:59.260 V Cogan: financial issues that were were raised. But there was a deck that was sent out by as.
00:03:59.290 --> 00:04:05.990 V Cogan: and the headline of the deck was our IP good time, and they proceeded to talk about how the venture industry was
00:04:06.020 --> 00:04:07.120 click. And and
00:04:07.430 --> 00:04:11.730 V Cogan: for those of you that don't know Silicon Valley Bank. Thanks.
00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:20.089 V Cogan: Even today. It's it's new iteration. Banks. tech companies, venture capitalists, and and really the the innovation.
00:04:20.209 --> 00:04:27.710 V Cogan: and so to join financial institution at that time, especially one of the focus on that industry and behalf.
00:04:27.830 --> 00:04:39.690 V Cogan: You know, one of the prominent venture firms release something like that with pretty shocking. What happened over the next few years. So it was as quickly as pounding. The leadership at the
00:04:39.790 --> 00:04:52.480 V Cogan: took that as an opportunity to grow their business to think about infrastructure. and that that I could say. Probably the biggest lesson that I took away at that moment is that rather than being afraid
00:04:52.550 --> 00:05:09.910 V Cogan: of what might happen, it does with the issues that they were coming up, but really looked forward optimistically. And and one of the things that you have to have if you're working in the innovation space is optimism that the world is going to get better. The things are going to improve that the economy is going to to grow.
00:05:10.130 --> 00:05:23.660 V Cogan: and took that opportunity to really think about all of the infrastructure projects that they could build at that time. processes that we could scale in ways that we could optimize our business, so that we could take advantage of the upline, but
00:05:24.890 --> 00:05:30.590 V Cogan: so that I i'd say, you know I the part that I play, and a lot of those things is is
00:05:30.770 --> 00:05:33.910 V Cogan: sort of less interesting than the the top line
00:05:34.340 --> 00:05:38.040 V Cogan: of really doubling down on infrastructure. So
00:05:38.470 --> 00:05:51.150 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I mean that very much influenced you. I I I I gather, in sort of all you know, your subsequent roles, and and what you do now in terms of how you, how you represent.
00:05:51.500 --> 00:06:07.110 V Cogan: you know, can work with clients startup clients. Yeah, absolutely. I think the the the mindset of being optimistic was one that I didn't totally appreciate, and especially when I I spent my early days as an engineer
00:06:07.180 --> 00:06:14.530 V Cogan: sort of buried in the org. In a way you're focused on your product. You're focused on building, and i'm not really think politically about the business.
00:06:14.830 --> 00:06:22.190 V Cogan: and even early years as a as an attorney, I wasn't thinking politically about the business, and really thinking about what growth meant.
00:06:22.620 --> 00:06:26.600 V Cogan: That's the mentality of of really being optimistic about growth
00:06:26.940 --> 00:06:37.320 V Cogan: and thinking about aspirationally where you want to take your business, and making sure that you're putting business on. The course to do that is is critical.
00:06:37.540 --> 00:06:41.150 V Cogan: The the way that you do that is different. It really depends on the business
00:06:41.590 --> 00:06:50.860 V Cogan: that you're operating in venture back. Companies operate in a very different way and more traditional businesses. You know the quote equipment that really
00:06:50.990 --> 00:06:57.690 V Cogan: broke organically make money reinvest that money into the business and kind of iterate on that path.
00:06:58.080 --> 00:07:01.680 V Cogan: Venture back. Companies have a very inorganic.
00:07:01.760 --> 00:07:11.150 V Cogan: You get huge stuff plugs with money, you burn through capital, and you do it to accelerate the growth of the business in a particular industry or a particular product.
00:07:11.380 --> 00:07:22.220 V Cogan: and and that that is, it's a very different model of building a business and a more traditional business where we're You're doing it organically and and really bootstrap in your way. This is
00:07:24.150 --> 00:07:42.430 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so I think we'll we'll. We'll dig into some of that a little bit more later. I want to come back to the the world of Silicon Valley bank, and you know, because i'm sure. The listeners, having heard that you were there, and having, you know, paid attention to the news of late.
00:07:42.580 --> 00:07:47.820 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, probably are interested to know, you know, and to hear your perception on what happened there.
00:07:47.970 --> 00:07:56.120 V Cogan: Yeah, yeah, no. I mean I I'll be honest with with a lot of other people I was. It's completely devastated by what happened, you know.
00:07:56.440 --> 00:07:59.440 V Cogan: on a variety of different. So, personally.
00:07:59.450 --> 00:08:07.710 V Cogan: you know the investment that I personally made, but really the relationship that I have with people that are absolutely exceptional, and
00:08:07.820 --> 00:08:12.960 V Cogan: what they were personally going through, whether whether it's loss and equity, you know
00:08:13.250 --> 00:08:14.900 V Cogan: who, putting off retirement
00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:22.340 V Cogan: college, you know, for kids, whatever it might be. There's a lot of personal lot there for a team of people that are
00:08:22.460 --> 00:08:40.250 V Cogan: absolutely, exceptionally professional. Just want to anecdote before I jump into this to sort of the bigger thing. But on Friday most of the people that we didn't even have to job, and I know of at least 2 dozen people and many part who continue to work for the weekend for their client
00:08:40.480 --> 00:08:44.650 V Cogan: to really try to find any solutions that could to help them out.
00:08:44.760 --> 00:08:50.380 V Cogan: And and I I think that that's a Testament to the culture that the bank had
00:08:50.550 --> 00:08:51.440 V Cogan: now
00:08:51.600 --> 00:09:00.880 V Cogan: jumping back into what happens. The the bank obviously made some investment mistakes, but I I would argue that those they shouldn't internal for the bank
00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:08.770 V Cogan: to publicly trade. A company, or, you know, was an independently publicly created company, and that would have been reflected in their stock price.
00:09:08.820 --> 00:09:19.000 V Cogan: But what happened was, and then there was some communications that you can be wrong, that that the leadership really did not communicate or message what was going on effectively.
00:09:19.180 --> 00:09:26.290 V Cogan: But what happened that impacted the ultimate demise of that iteration of Spv. Before it was like Prior.
00:09:26.330 --> 00:09:41.640 V Cogan: at least the bank was acquired was a really traditional one on the bank that was accelerated. It was, it happened online. It was driven by fear, and anything, even the largest things.
00:09:41.650 --> 00:09:43.410 V Cogan: are not
00:09:43.420 --> 00:09:49.190 V Cogan: able to withstand an immediate demand on the scale that
00:09:49.390 --> 00:09:54.750 V Cogan: and so in a very short amount of time it more like 48 h bank went from being
00:09:54.780 --> 00:09:58.170 V Cogan: solvents to essentially not existing anymore.
00:10:00.250 --> 00:10:03.320 V Cogan: That that's it. That's the the punch line.
00:10:03.580 --> 00:10:12.590 V Cogan: The the impact, I think, is a little bit different. The Svd. You know as much as I wish. There were more than.
00:10:12.600 --> 00:10:18.500 V Cogan: and there were banks that really understood the pressures, the venture back properties, and the innovation Space Bill
00:10:18.660 --> 00:10:24.210 V Cogan: allowed for extending of credit and models, including things like venture that
00:10:24.400 --> 00:10:26.270 V Cogan: the other banks just aren't
00:10:26.340 --> 00:10:28.280 V Cogan: equipped to provide.
00:10:29.430 --> 00:10:42.950 V Cogan: Svd. Was one of the only ones that did it. And now we're we're left without an stb. And so I I really see this is an own goal by the innovation space, the venture back companies and Vcs. Out there. This is
00:10:43.210 --> 00:10:44.830 V Cogan: frankly preventable.
00:10:44.970 --> 00:10:59.300 V Cogan: And and again, I I think there are some people out there who might argue differently. But I I I think that this is preventable, and we're gonna be struggling as an industry as a factor. Try to find a banking partner that's going to be.
00:11:01.950 --> 00:11:07.510 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So we're looking for someone to fill the void essentially and not make the same mistakes.
00:11:07.920 --> 00:11:11.940 V Cogan: Yeah, I think the the filling the void it's making the same mistakes.
00:11:12.010 --> 00:11:24.870 V Cogan: The banks are going to make mistakes. They're going to make investments, and that that is. It's part of banking at risk, as part of banking, I think filling the void is different, because you have to have a completely different mindset
00:11:24.970 --> 00:11:29.260 V Cogan: to really support all of the needs of businesses in this space
00:11:29.560 --> 00:11:32.990 V Cogan: and that's that's going to be a very hard thing to build and take. A lot of
00:11:33.490 --> 00:11:41.210 V Cogan: Svd. Is still there, obviously, and the people they're still there for about a free. But I think in the new environment. We're gonna have to wait and see
00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:44.920 V Cogan: as to how the bank
00:11:46.180 --> 00:11:52.970 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Thanks so much. Well, it's time for a break. You're listening to in tang. If I on talk radio, dot Nyc: we'll be back in a few minutes.
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00:14:06.150 --> 00:14:19.470 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Welcome back to in, tangify on talk, radio and Nyc. Where we discussed the intangible aspects of business. I'm. Your host, Matthew as well. My guest today is Vince Cogan, formerly of Silicon Valley Bank stripe
00:14:19.510 --> 00:14:39.470 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and brex. But more recently the the proprietor of a new legal practice, 0 to one legal. And Vince. I I want to ask you a little bit about that. What? What? What is what? Why, Why, you called 0 to one, what then? And what are you trying to do next? You're on mute though. Make sure you take yourself off.
00:14:41.810 --> 00:14:54.570 V Cogan: Sorry about that, Matt: yeah. So it's it's a little bit cheeky. The the you know 0 to one is a term. It is, I think, popularized probably by Peter Teal's book, but it's used a lot more properly than that.
00:14:54.600 --> 00:15:04.450 V Cogan: but it's this notion of it's sort of starting with early stages and really concept mitigation all the way through something that's a viable product in the
00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:17.640 V Cogan: So that for me that's the happiest place for me to work in a startup. It. It's getting getting in really early at a company really helping them get to a point where there's viability products
00:15:18.280 --> 00:15:25.910 V Cogan: that's that's more of the product market fit, which we can talk about a little bit. But it's building the processes
00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:32.900 V Cogan: early processes, building that this structure bringing the mindset that you really need to help
00:15:33.020 --> 00:15:36.210 V Cogan: build and scale a company quickly and smartly
00:15:36.450 --> 00:15:52.810 V Cogan: in in the innovation space invention that companies you need in order to 60, and that that's a reality. We we can talk about a little bit, too. But if if you're not doing that in a way that's really anticipating where you're going to go
00:15:52.920 --> 00:15:54.900 V Cogan: and building towards that goal.
00:15:54.940 --> 00:16:06.730 V Cogan: Then you're not going to be successful. And so the practice is really it's right now, just me. But but i'm focused on helping companies that are in those early stages
00:16:06.780 --> 00:16:14.860 V Cogan: to trying to do whatever work needs to get done from the legal standpoint, but also bring a lot of that knowledge and experience of
00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:18.630 V Cogan: Now you're muted
00:16:20.570 --> 00:16:37.020 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: all the testing, as I recall that that's that. That's kind of very much what happened, and what you did with with with with Brex, because I I remember at the time you were, you were at least doing your, you know, practicing on your own for a little while, and
00:16:37.020 --> 00:16:41.570 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and then I remember you started working with the the founders of of of
00:16:41.580 --> 00:16:52.760 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: what became that company, and I got to meet you with the founders. You were traveling around with them and doing it doing, You know. It was very much early stage where it is now, but maybe you will talk a little bit about that.
00:16:52.860 --> 00:16:59.170 V Cogan: sure. Yeah, I mean we. So i'm depending on who you talk to. I was either the fourth or fifth person in correct
00:16:59.230 --> 00:17:02.380 V Cogan: we. When I met Page one and Rec, the founders.
00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:16.250 V Cogan: they were still working out of Enrique's living room, and they had started building the product. They the a little bit of a back story. There they had gone through White Combinator with an idea of building a augmented reality product.
00:17:16.390 --> 00:17:19.720 V Cogan: and then they decided early on and and to
00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:24.910 V Cogan: previously built a payments product in Brazil in a platform, and result that they sold
00:17:26.560 --> 00:17:38.650 V Cogan: when I met them. They had already gone through a sort of mine change, and to realize that, like one of the problems with starting an early stage company, is that even though you can get
00:17:38.710 --> 00:17:49.660 V Cogan: venture money, and you can put it in your bank account Ultimately, when you go out to get a credit card. None of the banks were willing to underwrite you, and this included Svb. Which I save is probably the most
00:17:50.110 --> 00:17:52.620 V Cogan: yeah friendly bank for things like this.
00:17:52.780 --> 00:18:06.030 V Cogan: Part of the reason is that if you don't have credit history. It's really hard to extend credit to a company correct. Early on had worked through this idea of not only issuing a credit card.
00:18:06.080 --> 00:18:13.110 V Cogan: but coming up with a fairly novel underwriting approach that allowed for credit to be extended safely to businesses.
00:18:13.190 --> 00:18:18.560 V Cogan: and then building a completely different tooling around that, so that it was actually usable by business.
00:18:18.900 --> 00:18:19.780 V Cogan: And you
00:18:19.930 --> 00:18:30.140 V Cogan: card that was paid like every other card. So there was a lot of tooling on top of it. And if you look at what Brexit today, it's really a a full suite of of business solutions, including
00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:33.200 V Cogan: a cash management product, with press cash
00:18:33.260 --> 00:18:44.960 V Cogan: cards, expense and invoice management, reporting a lot of different features that are layered on top of it, including venture that that that previously was really only offered by a handful of
00:18:45.090 --> 00:18:47.770 V Cogan: of of companies, including Sdb.
00:18:48.810 --> 00:19:05.210 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So you were talking a little bit before this about, you know. Start up sometimes, having to scale quickly. I think we we we I mean at this. That was my experience at the I in in terms of what I saw you doing seem like it was scaled awfully quickly, and you were trying to like
00:19:05.270 --> 00:19:17.260 V Cogan: still a lot of a lot of voids, and she and a lot of shoes all at once.
00:19:17.310 --> 00:19:21.600 V Cogan: And so everyone was doing a little bit of everything over a little.
00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:33.400 V Cogan: you know the passage of a little bit of time. We got up to about a dozen people or so. My role started to expand a little bit beyond legal and compliance. and included Hr. And and some other functions.
00:19:33.630 --> 00:19:41.230 V Cogan: And you're you're right it. It's doing a little bit of everything and it, I think, if you go into that
00:19:41.290 --> 00:19:58.660 V Cogan: environment with the idea of building something out, but ultimately handing things off, and you have the confidence as a professional, regardless of your discipline, to to really know where your limits are, and know when you need to add things off. That's that's critical. That's important, because
00:19:58.660 --> 00:20:08.200 V Cogan: these companies are not. It's not one company. When you join a company that early over the 5 years I was correct. It really felt like it was 8 different companies
00:20:08.350 --> 00:20:18.520 V Cogan: at different phases. We had different capacities. We were focused on different things. The branding change title thing. The organization changes.
00:20:18.730 --> 00:20:26.120 V Cogan: even the the the seat that you're sitting in changes a lot, you know. I probably sat in 7 different desks over 5 years.
00:20:26.300 --> 00:20:45.370 V Cogan: including my Home Office. So so you you, you know you. You have to have this this mindset of adapting and growing with the business of giving away things. I think, when when you you get into a mindset empire of the building and really clinging on to things, you're
00:20:45.490 --> 00:20:54.250 V Cogan: feeling like it's important that you own something perpetually. That's where you get hung up. That's just not how it
00:20:56.660 --> 00:21:11.940 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So you so you you left You left them, I guess, just a few months ago, right? And you and you and you launched you last year. 2 one. You're launching 0 to one, you know, and you're
00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:22.630 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I understand the prospective clients are gonna be. These kind of early early stage, you know, start ups companies that are that are doing something. And how are you? How do you evaluate those
00:21:22.730 --> 00:21:26.290 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: those clients, and what you know? What? What are the
00:21:26.660 --> 00:21:34.790 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know? What are the characteristics of the of the client tell you you you hope to, or already are representing.
00:21:34.830 --> 00:21:45.050 V Cogan: Yeah, yeah. So it started off as more to more of an informal advisory arrangement with a lot of these companies. Some of them I've invested in some. I didn't
00:21:45.070 --> 00:21:50.550 V Cogan: some of the founders I knew previously from either strike or Brex, or other contact.
00:21:50.850 --> 00:21:54.750 V Cogan: and really got to know a few of the companies fairly well.
00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:11.010 V Cogan: The you know, my the model that I practice in is a little bit different than than a traditional law firm model. So my my preferred mode of operating is almost like a second of the attorney or an extension of the inbound team
00:22:11.710 --> 00:22:12.640 V Cogan: or
00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:22.910 V Cogan: basically acting as the in-house lawyer for a company, and I timeshare kind of break up my week where i'm dedicated online for particular companies.
00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:36.090 V Cogan: I do work outside of those hours, but that there there's sort of time blocks for each one of the companies that they know they can get a hold of me on slack or an email, and i'm going to be sitting in front of them. And you can't see this right now. But my desktop look quick and
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:40.970 V Cogan: an it cause because I have laptop on how many different companies that I work with.
00:22:41.300 --> 00:22:55.080 V Cogan: But I I also do hourly work when I do project work, and for the companies that I do the second model. It's really companies where I feel like I can contribute a whole lot. They're on a trajectory that makes sense for somebody like me.
00:22:55.460 --> 00:22:57.970 V Cogan: which means very high growth.
00:22:58.100 --> 00:23:02.060 V Cogan: It means sort of ambitious, audacious goal
00:23:02.180 --> 00:23:05.480 V Cogan: to grow companies that need
00:23:05.550 --> 00:23:07.750 V Cogan: the constrained basis.
00:23:07.810 --> 00:23:18.830 V Cogan: and it's funny enough. Only One of the companies that I'm working really closely with right now is what I would call a finite company. The others operate in different spaces, including AI and health care.
00:23:18.950 --> 00:23:34.440 V Cogan: and and it it's not that fintech that I'm: i'm really focused on it. It's this this idea of building a platform in a constrained environment where I can be high impact and really help the company think through scaling quickly
00:23:34.690 --> 00:23:35.730 V Cogan: and smart.
00:23:36.300 --> 00:23:38.920 V Cogan: And I can give some examples on
00:23:39.040 --> 00:23:40.960 V Cogan: what that means.
00:23:41.070 --> 00:23:47.890 V Cogan: And I think first is probably worth giving a little bit of credit to the Cfo, who is now the CEO of correct.
00:23:48.090 --> 00:23:56.110 V Cogan: But one example of a really smart thing that he decided to do early on was find one of the big 4 accounting phones, and really
00:23:56.210 --> 00:24:00.240 V Cogan: be sure that we were diligent about how we were accounting for the business.
00:24:00.610 --> 00:24:09.300 V Cogan: And so, from the very beginning, we have one of the big for doing financial audits, even though our our volume is incredibly small. Our first year.
00:24:09.570 --> 00:24:17.000 V Cogan: part of that is to bring discipline on the really critical part of the business, and I think that the big learning there is. If you have a critical part of this.
00:24:17.390 --> 00:24:29.560 V Cogan: you need to really bring that external of view of how to constrain and and manage the business part way, so that you're doing right by the company, the investors, your customers.
00:24:30.900 --> 00:24:32.580 V Cogan: you know things that that
00:24:32.770 --> 00:24:52.230 V Cogan: I think I do fairly well and hopefully my clients agree is bringing perspective on when and how to sort of introduce different legal operational pieces, like, say, the contract management system, how to think through onboarding flows for customers in a way that's mark Given
00:24:52.230 --> 00:24:54.000 V Cogan: how you want to fill your business.
00:24:55.310 --> 00:25:03.950 V Cogan: really helping to balance the risk problem that changes over time. Earlier in a business's history. You can take on a lot more risk.
00:25:04.090 --> 00:25:09.050 V Cogan: and you can later on, and really helping companies and and people who are
00:25:09.110 --> 00:25:12.580 V Cogan: helping to manage for the business, understand what that looks like.
00:25:12.900 --> 00:25:25.860 V Cogan: and then just nuts and bolts, drafting things that are functional for the business, You, if you've got a very rapidly changing business. That's scaling quickly. You need to think about giving them tools.
00:25:25.870 --> 00:25:41.140 V Cogan: And as a lawyer in the form of of agreements or guidance, or whatever it might be that are going to be flexible enough that they can adapt to the business as well. You don't want to have to go back and reinvent some. So really thinking structurally about your documents that so that it's gonna work for the people.
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:47.330 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So I I heard a lot there. But but the the thing that i'm going to pull out
00:25:47.370 --> 00:26:04.650 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: to me kind of sounds like 2 sides of the same coin, you know. On the one hand there was sort of this early hiring of the big 4 accounting firms that that that that that you see value in that this idea of right of taking
00:26:04.650 --> 00:26:11.500 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: taking that very seriously from the get go and anticipating and building a a certain culture.
00:26:11.600 --> 00:26:23.840 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But you also talked a little bit about kind of knowing when to bring in when to start Doing, you know. Bring in in house, bring in legal, bring in compliance, bring it, bring in other pieces
00:26:23.910 --> 00:26:42.890 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: at at the right time right? And and you know I i'm i'm, you know as i'm trying. I'm struggling with that, as I think, about the entrepreneurial client, an and and and also just what you're talking about. Sort of starting with early stage companies, I mean, if somebody out of their garage, you know, is launching right.
00:26:42.960 --> 00:27:00.210 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: The idea of kind of jumping in and saying, oh, yeah, I'm gonna go hire this really expensive big firm to do. X Y. And Z. I'm gonna hire you. I'm gonna go hire the accounting and be like, oh, hire the lawyer, or whatever else I i'm gonna do at the early stage. I'm gonna go broke, and before I can get my product to market.
00:27:00.450 --> 00:27:02.360 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So i'd love to hear your response to that.
00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:07.250 V Cogan: Yeah, I mean that that is gonna depend entirely on your business when your business is money.
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:15.600 V Cogan: Having a very reputable accounting, firm providing oversight and giving you feedback is critically important.
00:27:15.910 --> 00:27:20.790 V Cogan: and you need to fundraise recording right? I mean, you can't just
00:27:20.860 --> 00:27:28.860 V Cogan: pop up a a Fintech company out of a garage, you know, bootstrap it indefinitely, and think that you're going to be successful, because that's just not
00:27:28.980 --> 00:27:43.040 V Cogan: now. In 10 companies work. you know. If you're building a social media platform, it's gonna be a little bit different. And those those feedback that you get, those inputs that you get from other parties to kind of bring discipline are going to look a little bit different.
00:27:43.070 --> 00:27:48.790 V Cogan: It might be, for instance, finding a a law farm or or a consulting firm
00:27:48.800 --> 00:27:53.730 V Cogan: to do data on it, to make sure that you're processing and handling personal information correctly.
00:27:54.000 --> 00:28:12.900 V Cogan: If it's a you know I don't even know how you would bootstrap a Pharma company. But if you're like bootstrapping a a farm or a chemical company. you might be coming in and making sure that the the discipline is in your practices, your processes and procedures for building in particular.
00:28:13.400 --> 00:28:19.800 V Cogan: So all of that discipline is going to look different, based off of your business, not your sector.
00:28:19.900 --> 00:28:32.540 V Cogan: But it really is one of those things that if you're if you're planning, if all you're doing is building a business to sell it off. Then. Yeah, I mean it. It. It's. It's like building a a
00:28:33.060 --> 00:28:40.610 V Cogan: you know I so one, as you know, Matthew, like one of my loves is whiskey. But like if you're building up a a distillery, let's say
00:28:40.660 --> 00:28:45.630 V Cogan: you know sadly. I i'd say probably 80% of it is branding.
00:28:45.670 --> 00:29:03.360 V Cogan: and if you're just building it up to sell it off, then, like 80% of your value is going to be in the intellectual property of the brand. Not necessarily. And a lot of founders were just building up businesses to sell them off. I'm a very different mindset. You're not necessarily gonna want that time and money
00:29:03.390 --> 00:29:13.500 V Cogan: and a lot of these control framework bring more long term legitimacy to your business. But if you're building one of these fast growing business.
00:29:13.710 --> 00:29:21.660 V Cogan: ily scaling, and you're really shooting for the moon, you're really, you know whether that's an IP or some other water's liquidity event.
00:29:22.830 --> 00:29:31.320 V Cogan: The focus should really be on. How do you legitimize the things that are critical to your business. And that's that's gonna depend on the sector.
00:29:33.150 --> 00:29:41.080 Thanks. That's great answer. We're going to go to break You're listening to in tang. If on talk radio, dot Nyc. And we'll back in a few minutes.
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00:30:12.070 --> 00:30:39.860 In opposed to moving world. You may have many unanswered questions regarding your health. Are you looking to live a healthier lifestyle. Do you have a desire to learn more about mental health, and enhance your quality of life? Or do you just want to participate in self-understanding and awareness. I'm Frank R. Harrison, host of Frank about health, and each Thursday I will tackle these questions and work to enlight you tune in every 3 at 5 P. M. On talk radio and Nyc and I will be frank about help to advocate for all of us.
00:30:45.140 --> 00:31:09.260 Hey, Everybody it's Tommy D, the non-profit sector connector coming at you from my attic each week here on top radio and nyc I hosted program for lambda in focus nonprofits in cocktails in each and every day, and it's my focus to help them amplify their message and tell their story. Listen each week at 10 a. M. Eastern Standard time until 11. A. M. Is from standing time right here on talk radio, Dot. Nyc.
00:31:10.250 --> 00:31:20.730 You're listening to talk radio and Yc. At Www: talk radio and live scene now broadcasting 24 h a day.
00:31:21.220 --> 00:31:22.210 You
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:32.590 you
00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:50.940 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: welcome back to intensify on talk, radio, and why i'm your host, Matthew, as well, and our good. Our guest is Vince Cogan of 0 to one legal.
00:31:52.110 --> 00:32:05.480 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Vince and I were talking before the break about. You know different industries, and and how you might sort of, you know. Go about.
00:32:05.490 --> 00:32:16.960 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: You know what is needed in that industry to to scale, you know, based on the different industry and and on the goals for the objectives right that the that the entrepreneurs owners have
00:32:16.990 --> 00:32:23.280 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: it. It reminded me a little Vince of. I had a client that was
00:32:23.520 --> 00:32:29.900 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: was looking to create a social media network to a geared towards a business.
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:48.940 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and and had asked me to research the the history of of of Linkedin in relation to it's trademark filings, I mean, like really down and dirty, you know. But that's my world right. But it was very interesting to look at, because you could look at over the course of of of
00:32:49.080 --> 00:32:50.790 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: many, many years.
00:32:50.910 --> 00:33:08.840 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: like you know how much they tried to cover in the beginning, and then how they kind of grew it, and it wasn't all just sort of a natural progression of okay. We've expanded. We're doing this. Now. We're doing linkedin learning. So we need to educational service or whatever I mean. There there was this sort of like.
00:33:08.860 --> 00:33:19.490 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, kind of. We gotta get the core. you know. But you know the All week forgot to do that. We got to add that in we got to add that logo in there you could To me it looked like it wasn't all entirely planned out.
00:33:19.570 --> 00:33:32.540 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But there was this kind of trajectory over the course of years to as opposed to on day one. We want to do all these things. Let's just go file applications all over the world for all these different things that we're going to go. Do let's cover it all today.
00:33:32.560 --> 00:33:33.730 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Oh, perhaps money.
00:33:34.080 --> 00:33:36.320 V Cogan: Yeah, right? Right?
00:33:36.710 --> 00:33:46.750 V Cogan: Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean I I I think yeah, I i'm that of all corporations as people argument can kind of be taken in a few different directions.
00:33:46.990 --> 00:33:56.950 V Cogan: One of them I don't want to go down here, but you can think about corporations as people in the sense that they evolve the way that people do. They grow there, there's there's
00:33:57.040 --> 00:34:04.180 V Cogan: a baby period there's an adolescent period. There's an adult in period. and I think that a lot of companies that
00:34:04.340 --> 00:34:12.159 V Cogan: in the same way that that people in their particular roles might look at and say like, of course, it's inevitable that that person is going to be act
00:34:13.699 --> 00:34:19.070 V Cogan: early on. That's not the case, you know. Companies are are struggling to try to find
00:34:19.139 --> 00:34:31.310 V Cogan: where it is that they can be most impactful. Most companies, I I would think that for companies find product markets fit fairly early on for a particular product in a particular market.
00:34:31.600 --> 00:34:38.520 V Cogan: and that can be great, and they can grow a a really wonderful business there. But that's
00:34:38.560 --> 00:34:40.900 V Cogan: you know. A product does not make company.
00:34:41.210 --> 00:34:57.150 V Cogan: and I can give some some really good examples of where that Hasn't. Exactly. But but that you really need to have a different mindset around growing the business in the totality, and that means going beyond just the singular product.
00:34:57.370 --> 00:34:59.200 V Cogan: It doesn't mean that that
00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:14.340 V Cogan: you don't have the core product that it accounts for the bulk of your business. It's a a wonderful product, and I think Linkedin is a really good example of sort of this. This hub of of the sort of professional relationships.
00:35:14.580 --> 00:35:18.820 V Cogan: They passed a lot of other things that they provide. I mean what one of the things that
00:35:18.930 --> 00:35:23.110 V Cogan: I, when I first learned about it I was. It was prized by
00:35:23.180 --> 00:35:27.480 V Cogan: is that their recruiting platform is is essentially ubiquitous with recruiters.
00:35:27.600 --> 00:35:34.080 V Cogan: and and that makes total sense. Right? It's not just, you know you and I think about it. It's just like posting our our
00:35:34.170 --> 00:35:41.340 V Cogan: our professional live and and communicating with with potential clients, clients, people that were interested in colleagues.
00:35:41.680 --> 00:35:49.230 V Cogan: But there's this whole world of data out there that's incredibly valuable for recruiters. And so, when Linkedin.
00:35:49.240 --> 00:36:00.560 V Cogan: many years ago, started developing this this wonderful recruiting platform. It made perfect sense. That's that's smart. That's taking a lot of the tools that they have and and developing a really cool platform.
00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:11.090 V Cogan: And my my guess. I mean I don't know, because I haven't looked at the financial, I guess, is that they probably make tremendous amount of money, if not most of their money from
00:36:11.170 --> 00:36:12.110 V Cogan: recruiting platform.
00:36:12.670 --> 00:36:25.720 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Is it your guess that when they started their business long, long ago, that they envisioned them that there would be a recruiting platform, and that that would be something that that generated revenues and
00:36:25.750 --> 00:36:27.440 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and and
00:36:27.550 --> 00:36:40.410 V Cogan: so I I don't I don't. I don't know the the the history of Linkedin enough to really say, You know the obviously read hopping that the people who have been responsible for
00:36:40.620 --> 00:36:42.190 V Cogan: over the years, or like
00:36:42.270 --> 00:36:45.860 V Cogan: brilliant people, but even brilliant people
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:47.500 V Cogan: can't tell the future.
00:36:47.560 --> 00:36:58.390 V Cogan: And I think until you start getting traction with a particular product in a particular market, you really don't understand what the demand is. You also, Don't, understand where the pressure are with the opportunity.
00:36:58.550 --> 00:37:09.930 V Cogan: sorry what the risk are. And so, as you start to formulate a better understanding of that you can start to out some of the ideas that you might have. And again, if I were to get.
00:37:10.040 --> 00:37:18.160 V Cogan: They probably had a variety of different corrections that they were thinking about taking the company into some of which panned out, some of which didn't.
00:37:18.200 --> 00:37:26.380 V Cogan: and again successful companies do that they? They! They're constantly iterating and reevaluating where their product is
00:37:26.770 --> 00:37:32.940 V Cogan: product. Market fit is not a thing that you achieve and get a gold star and then move on and you like
00:37:33.220 --> 00:37:42.560 V Cogan: great. We've got product market fit. Now we don't have to worry about that anymore. It's something that is a massively iterative process that you constantly are going through to make sure that you understand
00:37:42.640 --> 00:37:44.910 V Cogan: what potential markets are out there
00:37:45.120 --> 00:37:52.700 V Cogan: that you can do business in that You can bring customers in from, and what products you can then bring to that market.
00:37:52.850 --> 00:37:58.570 V Cogan: and some of those you you could be a lever in that market, and others you might not be
00:37:58.890 --> 00:38:06.400 V Cogan: just to kind of pick on both of my my most recent former employers. You know
00:38:06.720 --> 00:38:10.760 V Cogan: Brex is a corporate card company stripe launch to corporate product.
00:38:10.770 --> 00:38:19.930 V Cogan: Strength, I, I would say, is second to none. When you look at their payments platform, their corporate product is as cool as it is
00:38:20.010 --> 00:38:25.350 V Cogan: even from the beginning. Didn't look like it was going to reasonably compete with Brex.
00:38:25.560 --> 00:38:28.660 V Cogan: Some of that is that that's not their focus.
00:38:28.900 --> 00:38:41.690 V Cogan: Rex's entirety of their focus at that point in time is really on building an incredible corporate card platform and strike is a lot more focused on building a payments platform. It doesn't mean that it strikes corporate card product
00:38:41.720 --> 00:38:44.200 V Cogan: is awful. It's it's a really cool product.
00:38:44.340 --> 00:38:48.510 V Cogan: but it's not going to capture the market. That Brex is is capturing right.
00:38:48.780 --> 00:38:51.720 V Cogan: or that you know legacy players already have.
00:38:52.550 --> 00:38:54.600 V Cogan: and and and others
00:38:55.830 --> 00:38:56.650 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so
00:38:57.650 --> 00:39:11.500 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: digesting a little bit of that, you you know we, you know you've talked about aviation, and you've talked about iteration, right? And a and essentially, you know. Maybe maybe a company starts out
00:39:11.500 --> 00:39:18.680 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: A, and you sort of talked about it sort of life cycle like as if it were a human right as it's baby stages into its adulthood.
00:39:19.720 --> 00:39:22.480 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So so you know, as you start out, you know I mean
00:39:22.510 --> 00:39:32.430 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: they start out with. I've I've looked in the marketplace, and I've seen a need, and I have a stout, and I and this is the need. And this is I want to. I want to fill this need. So i'm going to build this product
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:34.510 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: to match it, and I I think
00:39:34.540 --> 00:39:42.910 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: that I mean product market fit, I mean, you can tell me. But I my understanding of that. Is is that right? How well does the demand of the marketplace
00:39:43.160 --> 00:39:55.050 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: meet the products you're creating or vice versa. Is that yeah, that I mean, that's generally accurate, I think, where you see founders trip up is that you can look at any.
00:39:55.060 --> 00:40:02.420 V Cogan: you know a seed series precede deck theory. They deck, and the way that founders describe their market is, it's
00:40:02.470 --> 00:40:14.630 V Cogan: it's a trillion dollar. I I you know everything is a trillion dollar market, because if you, if you start looking unrealistically at the total market that could exist in a particular space.
00:40:14.640 --> 00:40:24.340 V Cogan: You can come up with some really large, crazy numbers. I think, where the discipline comes in is really understanding where there is a gap in the market
00:40:24.570 --> 00:40:26.640 V Cogan: in a particular market.
00:40:26.700 --> 00:40:36.660 V Cogan: So I mean a really good example is, you know, I I would say, early on this this notion of building an Api for payments.
00:40:36.850 --> 00:40:53.120 V Cogan: and then executing on it in a way that was attractive to a particular segment of that market in particular, developers that were working in that space that wanted to integrate in payments. That is, you know I I don't know that I've ever even seen some of the earlier stripe decks.
00:40:53.190 --> 00:41:07.810 V Cogan: But that was a very clear need at a time. It was critical for the transition from really web, one to web 2, you know, static Internet. To dynamic. You know, minimal commerce do massive amount of commerce online
00:41:07.830 --> 00:41:16.160 V Cogan: and just getting that market at that point in time and really thinking about that, and then trying to service that market as best as it could.
00:41:16.330 --> 00:41:19.910 V Cogan: That was a really good example of kind of finding product.
00:41:20.060 --> 00:41:20.700 Yeah.
00:41:21.120 --> 00:41:27.660 V Cogan: I think there are other examples where it kind of landed on his face. And and you know one example that that
00:41:27.770 --> 00:41:33.400 V Cogan: you know kind of breaks my heart because I I wish it was different. If you look at Gopro right.
00:41:33.530 --> 00:41:40.160 V Cogan: Gopro is great idea, like building these super, cool action cameras that you can just mount on everything and
00:41:40.540 --> 00:41:49.490 V Cogan: but that, like all they've done is make a slightly better camera and a slightly better camera. They haven't expanded into other spaces.
00:41:49.790 --> 00:41:50.960 V Cogan: you know. I mean.
00:41:51.230 --> 00:42:00.250 V Cogan: Oh, okay, look at Red Bull as an example, I mean, Red Bull has an F. One team is like literally building racing engines is
00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:04.210 V Cogan: is like deeply involved in esports and sponsorship, and
00:42:04.290 --> 00:42:13.770 V Cogan: go for could have gone that direct, and they could have found the different market to kind of leverage into and expand the products and services that they were offering. But you really haven't.
00:42:16.540 --> 00:42:22.960 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So we're going to go to a break. But but I want to come back to that. I that that issue and
00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:37.200 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: talk a little bit about the the the Museum of Failure? I'm not sure if you're familiar with that. But but but but before we do that, let's let's go to break. You've been listening to in Tang. If I on talk radio and that Nyc. And what they will be back in a few minutes.
00:42:40.300 --> 00:43:04.400 Everybody, it's Tommy D, the non-profit sector connector coming at you from my attic each week here on talk radio and Ny Z. I host the program for lambda game Focus non-profits in cocktails each and every day and it's my focus to help them amplify their message and tell their story. Listen: Each week at 10 a. M. Eastern standard time until 11 a. M. Is for standard time right here on talk radio, dot Nyc.
00:43:05.040 --> 00:43:33.000 www.TalkRadio.nyc: In at the moment you may have many unanswered questions regarding your health. Are you looking to live a healthier lifestyle? Do you have a desire to learn more about mental health, and enhance your quality of life? Or do you just want to participate in self-understanding and awareness i'm Frank R. Harrison, host of Frank about health and each Thursday I will tackle these questions and work to enlighten you. Tune in every Thursday 5 P. M. On talk radio and Nyc. And I will be frank about help to advocate for all of us.
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00:44:31.550 --> 00:44:32.180 You
00:44:41.420 --> 00:44:50.760 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: welcome back to in tang. If I on talk radio, dot Nyc. Where we talk about the intangible aspects of business. My guest is Vince Cogan of 0 to one legal.
00:44:50.780 --> 00:44:59.940 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and we were talking about startups and ideation and iteration before the break. Vince, you were talking a little bit about.
00:45:01.160 --> 00:45:02.460 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know
00:45:03.350 --> 00:45:18.270 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: where companies were sort of hyper focused, and where that, in terms of identifying the product market fit, and they they they found the gap. They they they knew what was the right. You know what they thought was the right thing to do, and then that's what they pursued.
00:45:18.270 --> 00:45:26.260 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and you gave an example of of of stripe, which was a highly successful, as it as you know, in that in that initial.
00:45:26.640 --> 00:45:45.880 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know aspect. And then you gave another example of Gopro, and and may may be, and maybe that, being less successful in the context of product market fit. I'm not sure if that if I properly paraphrase that, and i'll, i'll give you an opportunity to tell me I i'm incorrect before going on.
00:45:46.090 --> 00:45:52.650 V Cogan: Yeah, no, I it it it. I think it's generally right that I would say that gopro had an amazing product like this.
00:45:53.600 --> 00:46:03.920 V Cogan: The the problem with co-pro is that it didn't really iterate beyond just improving an existing product. It didn't really find ways to expand into different markets.
00:46:04.040 --> 00:46:07.630 V Cogan: to think about growing the business in in different directions
00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:18.650 V Cogan: to kind of support that growth, and it's not that it isn't an exceptional product. It's still an exceptional product. and it's obviously used wisely or widely, but
00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:25.210 V Cogan: it just it didn't expand in the way that I think a lot of people, including myself, were sort of hoping it would.
00:46:26.470 --> 00:46:39.290 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So it's more about the iteration aspect, you know, and you know your initial. Your initial product. You know me, fills a gap, but you you have to constantly be reinventing yourself
00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:48.370 V Cogan: in within context, but reinventing yourself reinventing the company, and in order to, in order to grow and continue to succeed.
00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:52.050 V Cogan: especially in the context of venture back companies. I mean, I think if you.
00:46:52.060 --> 00:47:04.110 V Cogan: if you again to kind of take a little bit of the step back, you've got it. It venture back company in contrast to a a traditional self funded mom and pop type business
00:47:04.220 --> 00:47:15.510 V Cogan: is that those businesses grow organically and venture cap venture back. Companies don't really grow organically. They They get huge slides of capital, and they're expected to to
00:47:15.610 --> 00:47:23.480 V Cogan: smartly burn through that capital to grow the business as quickly as possible over shorter amount of time than what you would normally have.
00:47:23.750 --> 00:47:39.260 V Cogan: And so, if you're if you're doing that part of the deal in doing that is that you are not just growing and building better products and sort of finding ways to wedge or grow a particular market where I didn't do an existing market, or grow at on
00:47:39.740 --> 00:47:41.560 V Cogan: the things that are really novel.
00:47:42.850 --> 00:47:48.940 V Cogan: But you need to constantly iterate. Make sure that your business itself, not just the product to the business itself
00:47:48.990 --> 00:47:52.460 V Cogan: is servicing a broader market.
00:47:52.510 --> 00:48:03.000 V Cogan: That means potentially building really sticky products. Building in products that, you know, are not necessarily going to be huge dollars, or could even be lost leaders.
00:48:03.010 --> 00:48:10.220 V Cogan: But they're increasing your the thickness of your product or another way of putting that is reducing. Turn away from your
00:48:11.210 --> 00:48:21.400 V Cogan: and you know again, just using personal examples. If you look back at stripe, they've got a variety of products.
00:48:21.520 --> 00:48:31.460 V Cogan: including some for fraud, detection and reporting and other things that aren't necessarily making the company that comes the money in the way that they're pay into businesses.
00:48:31.720 --> 00:48:39.650 V Cogan: But they are filling some solutions that might be, or some gas and solutions might be needed, but some of their clients
00:48:39.860 --> 00:48:46.510 V Cogan: to increase retention, to look at ways to expanding into new markets where
00:48:46.570 --> 00:48:50.510 V Cogan: companies may not have been interested in in strike before now they are.
00:48:50.760 --> 00:49:04.440 V Cogan: and there are a lot of examples of that. I think that that if you you know, Google is a perfectly good example of that, too, you know. But I mean all. All of the major companies have done this one basically
00:49:04.520 --> 00:49:09.660 V Cogan: limited themselves to their poor products, but it found ways to kind of advance and do
00:49:10.060 --> 00:49:12.960 V Cogan: existing markets or expand into the new market.
00:49:14.210 --> 00:49:30.600 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So I want to go back to something you were talking about earlier, which is sort of raising your entity like like like a child. And in in in your last answer. You know you you sort of I I would say you sort of describe the venture back companies as if
00:49:30.600 --> 00:49:47.140 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: your child, you know you've got an infant in the next that next minute he's a teenager, an and and and you know you're pivoting kind of at hyper speed in terms of the you know, I don't know what you put in his in his breakfast cereal. But you know.
00:49:47.140 --> 00:49:54.490 V Cogan: Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's a toddler phase in there, too. Don't get me wrong. It is. The free teams are pretty ugly as well, but it it's
00:49:54.520 --> 00:49:59.210 V Cogan: you, you know there there are a lot of different in which that plays out
00:49:59.220 --> 00:50:01.250 V Cogan: There's there's coordination.
00:50:01.320 --> 00:50:08.490 V Cogan: How how is the company operating in synchrony? How is it? Is it really moving forward?
00:50:08.680 --> 00:50:27.320 V Cogan: It's the ability to critically think about things so like. How how much maturity is there for a organization to really understand the context of a moment, and really bring its best out there. There's the requirement that it trips and falls, and
00:50:27.410 --> 00:50:33.370 V Cogan: you know, bends itself up a little bit, and it's a little bit more resilient when it's smaller. There's the sense of help
00:50:33.630 --> 00:50:40.140 V Cogan: cultural identity. I mean, this is something that I think a lot of people who come from bigger companies to smaller companies, Don't totally realize.
00:50:40.330 --> 00:50:50.310 V Cogan: But if you're in an environment of rapid change. then everything about the company is changing. It's not like. you know. You've got these company. You know it. It's
00:50:50.490 --> 00:51:03.150 V Cogan: whatever the the company in the office. I forget the name of it. But some some company that's been around forever making paper. Yeah, it's the same value for the last 100 years. Right?
00:51:03.150 --> 00:51:17.120 V Cogan: I mean I I've been in environments where the value of they're changing, you know, at least once a year, right? They're They're iterating on their own values to try to better understand who they are and what they're about, how they're going to service their clients.
00:51:17.160 --> 00:51:31.000 V Cogan: So each one of those bank ages is appropriate, and in in the same way that you've got a sort of growth habit for a human where You've got higher risk activities. That kind of occur in certain parts of the evolution. I think that's the same of company
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:39.270 V Cogan: companies need to kind of bang themselves up a little bit to learn and grow and become resilient, and
00:51:39.350 --> 00:51:53.030 V Cogan: and and there should be tolerance for that, too, if it's it doesn't mean you're doing anything illegal or unethical, or it's gonna harm your clients or your customers, or your employees or your
00:51:53.120 --> 00:51:54.820 V Cogan: You need to be responsible
00:51:54.890 --> 00:51:57.580 V Cogan: across the life cycle for those things.
00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:02.630 V Cogan: But there's a difference between making a mistake that has a financial consequence.
00:52:03.080 --> 00:52:14.800 V Cogan: and making a mistake that is unethical or is going to break something. So I think that that's where. When I say banging things up, it's not. It's not being too responsible. It's not the
00:52:14.870 --> 00:52:21.260 V Cogan: the the the pitty move fast and break things at at at any expense like that. That's not
00:52:21.280 --> 00:52:26.570 V Cogan: what this should be about. It should be about learning and being somewhat acceptable.
00:52:26.620 --> 00:52:33.980 V Cogan: or accepting of accidents when they happen and mistake, but using that as a learning opportunity to kind of grow into the
00:52:35.320 --> 00:52:51.930 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you, take me back to the museum of failure. Once again I found out that this thing pretty pretty recently, but they they launched this in in Brooklyn, and they're New York, and they're showing all this history of products that that that were big big flops and sort of the stories behind them.
00:52:51.930 --> 00:52:55.380 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But you know I I I think your point about, you know. Kind of.
00:52:55.870 --> 00:53:04.310 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know. Yes, you can make mistakes, but but don't make stupid mistakes. I I you know, like you know, you should have some freedom, and you should make mistakes.
00:53:05.200 --> 00:53:17.080 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know a. But but you know don't be completely cavalier, so that you know it, you know, and as a if you're if your entity is a is a child, the idea is I gotta let my kid.
00:53:17.410 --> 00:53:26.540 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, learn, and they're not going to learn. If I just tell them what to do. but they're also not going to learn. If I just let them do whatever they want or they're going to learn.
00:53:26.830 --> 00:53:33.060 V Cogan: You know they may end up in the hospital
00:53:33.070 --> 00:53:42.390 V Cogan: once in your life, right? I mean my, I've got a 3 year old and a one year old. Some of the things that they do are absolutely stupid. If I were to do that like make perfect sense when they do them.
00:53:42.540 --> 00:53:47.690 V Cogan: and so that that's that's part of the evolution as well, I think more more than
00:53:47.740 --> 00:53:49.560 V Cogan: more than stupid. It it
00:53:49.590 --> 00:54:02.880 V Cogan: it's irresponsible or unethical, and that that's where you know the lawyers should in in-house lawyer. You can help guide people into, you know, putting up the the bumpers on the the Bowling lane to make sure that they're not going into the gutters.
00:54:03.070 --> 00:54:16.490 V Cogan: but, like you, you have to let them bump into the numbers like that's why the bumper is there, and so, figuring out where and how to kind of craft a a those guidelines, so that people aren't crossing into the like.
00:54:16.930 --> 00:54:29.340 V Cogan: you know absolute stupidity. And just in the relative stupidity like that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how people learn it's up. It's how the founders learn. That's how the employees learn. But it's also having business so learn from.
00:54:30.650 --> 00:54:54.470 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So I've got so much more that I want to talk to you about, and we're already running out of time. So i'm going to have to have you back, but you know i'll. I'll supper through yet another hour with you, but but for now I I I'd like to ask you, maybe to one last thing, which is, you know, the listeners on this program primarily are entrepreneurs and and people who work with entrepreneurs.
00:54:54.470 --> 00:54:59.710 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and would love to hear. You know what your take home message, what your key takeaway should be for them.
00:55:00.190 --> 00:55:08.070 V Cogan: Yeah, I I think that it's, you know. Go into your business with open eyes that have have courage and optimism.
00:55:08.150 --> 00:55:20.760 V Cogan: but gets a lot of input from a lot of different places. And if you feel strongly that what it is that you're building needs to be manifested in the world. Then
00:55:20.860 --> 00:55:27.980 V Cogan: you know again, within the law, within ethics, within doing right by your your customers, and in the world of large like.
00:55:28.040 --> 00:55:31.360 V Cogan: build that thing. Do do what you need to do to manifest it.
00:55:31.660 --> 00:55:34.660 V Cogan: and I I would say that that
00:55:34.770 --> 00:55:49.370 V Cogan: that includes, you know, a lot of personal sacrifice, but it in my mind is worth it right. You've got one life to live. and all of us should be trying to manifest really the the best things that we can into the world, and
00:55:49.520 --> 00:55:56.930 V Cogan: you know, find people that are aligned with you who can help you do that, too. I I've been very, very, very fortunate in that
00:55:56.980 --> 00:56:03.990 V Cogan: across my career. I've been able to work with so many people that i'm aligned with, and it it's just been absolutely one.
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:08.100 V Cogan: I'm. Looking forward to continuing to do that for a very long time.
00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:28.680 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Thanks so much, Vince, that that's a great message to end on. Really Appreciate your being here, and we'll yeah absolutely. And we'll we'll, we'll pick it up from there. You've been listening to in tang. If I on talk radio dot nyc tune in on Fridays at noon Eastern time for our live
00:56:28.680 --> 00:56:33.820 www.TalkRadio.nyc: podcast and hope to see you next week. Thanks so much. Guys take care.