Fridays 12:00pm - 1:00pm (EDT)
WHAT WILL THE AUDIENCE LEARN?
Perspectives on environmental sustainability in business
Diane Artal is the legal director of Scale Microgrids, and Matthew Karmel is an environmental lawyer who serves as outside counsel. My guests discuss sustainability in business.
00:00:44.070 --> 00:00:48.730 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: hi there! Welcome to in Tang, if i'm your host, Matthew, as well.
00:00:48.900 --> 00:00:54.270 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: The intent to by podcast, is where we talk about the intangible aspect of business.
00:00:55.030 --> 00:01:09.590 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: This coming next Saturday, the 20 s of April will be Earth day of 23, and and I thought it would be fitting to have a little discussion about environmentalism and sustainability
00:01:09.910 --> 00:01:27.560 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: these days. You know, we've here a lot in the news. The planet needs us to be green. We we we here from all sorts of businesses and and others, how how we should be green, and and people want to say that they're green.
00:01:28.810 --> 00:01:35.630 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: The Government wants to motivate us, to be green and to develop green technologies. Now, green businesses
00:01:35.690 --> 00:01:49.010 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: in my world, in the world of intellectual property law. There are all sorts of programs, encouraging businesses to, you know, to to advance technology and to operate and provide services that
00:01:49.070 --> 00:01:55.660 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: a are sustainable and will support, you know, an improved environment, and our planet
00:01:55.860 --> 00:02:07.660 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: A. As a quick example, there are 11 intellectual property offices around the world that are members of the World Intellectual property organization's, green program which shares resources and contacts.
00:02:08.300 --> 00:02:14.480 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: The United States Patent Office has a patents or humanity awards competition
00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:22.060 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: in a green energy category that they launched, and they're taking applications to for those awards through June First of this year.
00:02:22.690 --> 00:02:39.370 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: They also have a climate change mitigation pilot program, where they speed along the examination of patent applications, and they've just announced a awards for trademarks that are supportive of the environment.
00:02:39.460 --> 00:02:53.940 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and they have an awards competition where they're accepting awards through July fourteenth, 2,023. So Esg. Sustainability, environmental social and corporate governance. These are the topics of the day. We hear about them all the time.
00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:58.170 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and i'm pleased to have 2 guests with me today.
00:02:58.690 --> 00:03:04.950 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I have Diane Artal, who is the legal director for scale micro grids.
00:03:05.070 --> 00:03:16.910 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and I have Matthew Carmel, who is a principal at off at Kerman. and serves as the head of the environmental and sustainability law practice. Diane, Could you introduce yourself
00:03:18.270 --> 00:03:24.180 Diane.Artal: sure with Fisher. Thank you. Met you for having me. It's a leisure. It's pretty
00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:42.660 Diane.Artal: so as you mentioned i'm a in-house council at scale micro grid solutions here in the United States, based in New York and I support the Company on distributed energy resources, transactions from origination, developments, financing, construction.
00:03:42.690 --> 00:03:51.160 Diane.Artal: operation, and also acquisition of a different type of assets in the solar and micro grid industry.
00:03:51.320 --> 00:03:58.090 Diane.Artal: I've been a little bit of background about me. I've been in the law industry for more than 15 years
00:03:58.180 --> 00:04:09.290 Diane.Artal: in private practice, and then in house, and a couple of years ago I had a awakening call, I would say where I decided I wanted to
00:04:10.630 --> 00:04:25.290 Diane.Artal: actively participate into and and environmental solutions for the public, and so I started my own practice after 6 years in house, in the airspace and energy industry
00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:42.820 Diane.Artal: and I work with small businesses and investment funds that we're focusing on along those lines. At the same time. I also collaborated with 2 Co founders via the Us. Purpose condition
00:04:43.140 --> 00:04:47.750 Diane.Artal: to bring the micro grid to
00:04:47.890 --> 00:04:58.000 Diane.Artal: a residential and mixed use buildings because micro weeds for is sort of TV and technology are something that is very expensive
00:04:58.020 --> 00:05:15.530 Diane.Artal: to get. And when you're talking about environmental justice, some of the communities that may be the most affected by climate change, may not have access to those type of environmental solutions that we can find today through microwaves.
00:05:15.650 --> 00:05:35.770 Diane.Artal: so that what brought me to what i'm doing today, and and my work at scale microwave solutions. I don't know whether you want me just to introduce a little bit what I do at at scale specifically. So. Basically scan is really
00:05:35.940 --> 00:05:48.330 Diane.Artal: providing energy as a service to micro grid. So then, the question that people may have is what exactly a micro grid. So it's a smart, interconnected a system of onsite energy.
00:05:48.330 --> 00:05:58.590 Diane.Artal: including multiple system, as opposed to one systems which is only solar, for example. So it coming those different forms of of
00:05:58.610 --> 00:06:04.550 Diane.Artal: clean energy, such as Solar, Pvs storage, dispatchable generation.
00:06:05.960 --> 00:06:13.580 Diane.Artal: and the other Dr. Assets and smart control that allowed them at the microwave to operate and optimize
00:06:13.670 --> 00:06:20.900 Diane.Artal: the different components and turn them on and off, depending on the necessity of the customer right.
00:06:20.970 --> 00:06:28.500 Diane.Artal: and in terms of the type of customer that we serve. It can be
00:06:29.050 --> 00:06:44.540 Diane.Artal: based on different type of industry, but mostly commercial industrial, high education, universities, water distribution to age, electric vehicle, industry, cost orage indoor forming.
00:06:44.550 --> 00:06:49.250 Diane.Artal: and what we offer is a solution that provides
00:06:49.420 --> 00:07:05.150 Diane.Artal: hopefully the 3 of them, but cleaner, cheaper, and more resilient energy, and then, depending on the customer. They want more of this for another part of what we can offer in the solution that that we have in time.
00:07:05.670 --> 00:07:08.790 Diane.Artal: So this is a little bit about what I do.
00:07:09.760 --> 00:07:24.550 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Thanks, Diane. So it sounds like you're right in the middle of it, as as someone who, through through her legal practice and her entrepreneurship has has has really been tackling issues of in environmental sustainability
00:07:24.810 --> 00:07:31.450 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: head on. And and now you're doing that from within a company that's that that that's focused in that area
00:07:31.760 --> 00:07:46.520 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: that we recognize that you know there are companies that do that that are about sustainability and renewable energy and things of that nature. But they're also companies that are entirely different industries, but they have
00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:50.710 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: reason to be concerned about environmental issues.
00:07:50.720 --> 00:08:07.040 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and and Matthew Carmel serves as outside Council, to both bytes, to people within your industry and to and to all different types of businesses that may have other environment, sustainability, questions, or issues. Matthew, can you? Can you share a little bit about yourself?
00:08:08.280 --> 00:08:11.340 Matthew Karmel: Yeah. Absolutely. So.
00:08:11.690 --> 00:08:12.490 Matthew Karmel: My
00:08:12.500 --> 00:08:19.360 Matthew Karmel: journey actually kind of parallels, Diane and I think a lot of people who have ended up in the sustainability and Esp space.
00:08:19.580 --> 00:08:34.789 Matthew Karmel: Hadn't had an awakening kind of turning point in their career at some point in time. My background in law is traditional environmental issues. So hazardous. Substances, Toxic site clean ups those kinds of things.
00:08:34.860 --> 00:08:39.150 Matthew Karmel: and after you know, a little bit of time in my career.
00:08:39.419 --> 00:08:41.900 Matthew Karmel: excuse me about 5 years or so, I said.
00:08:42.090 --> 00:08:53.910 Matthew Karmel: so. This is great. I'm cleaning stuff up, but I want to build things more. I want to be involved in a wider suite of sustainability initiatives, and, as you said, not helping both companies
00:08:54.060 --> 00:09:07.350 Matthew Karmel: who their product is a sustainability solution, and also helping those companies who need to be more sustainable. But their product is not that their service is not that so? You know I I have
00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:15.740 Matthew Karmel: built a practice representing all different phases of the renewable energy industry from solar to renewable natural gas hydrogen
00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:18.070 Matthew Karmel: to other very
00:09:18.280 --> 00:09:29.150 Matthew Karmel: climate, facing industries like waste and recycling, and the really innovative companies there that are doing things to mitigate climate change through our waste and recycling industries.
00:09:29.240 --> 00:09:33.670 Matthew Karmel: to just general manufacturing and the intense
00:09:33.770 --> 00:09:42.900 Matthew Karmel: issues that they face in focusing on and on on on their missions and their profiles and those kinds of things. And so it's a really
00:09:42.950 --> 00:09:56.540 Matthew Karmel: broad and esoteric practice that focuses on combining what was traditional environmental law with what I'd say is sustainability, environmental justice. The term that Diane used a little bit of go which I think we'll get into later in the in the podcast.
00:09:56.580 --> 00:10:07.580 Matthew Karmel: and representing a whole range of businesses from it Honestly, individual homeowners all the way up to 100 companies who are engaged in these industries and issues.
00:10:09.670 --> 00:10:21.630 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Thanks so much, and I i'm really pleased to have had the opportunity to work with each of you separately in in all different capacities and over the course of a of you know, of time.
00:10:21.860 --> 00:10:39.490 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know, and to get exposed to these types of things my world right is is all different kinds of industries. But but you know you can learn about these things from the experts who are who are really zoomed in on on these particular types of issues. So thank you. Thank you both for for for being here.
00:10:39.490 --> 00:10:54.260 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: We're gonna go to break in a few minutes. So I I think maybe just to start that conversation beyond our introductions. I wanted to ask Diane. Maybe if you could explain what the Sg. Is, and and maybe why it's import from an environmental perspective.
00:10:54.630 --> 00:11:05.860 Diane.Artal: Yeah, definitely, because everybody through this term everywhere. But we have to know what it stands for. So yes, she stands for environmental, social and governance.
00:11:05.940 --> 00:11:24.920 Diane.Artal: It's basically a set of criteria that use to evaluate the company performance in this 3 areas. So esg consideration are becoming more and more increasingly important for companies of full size and industry, not only those such as my company.
00:11:24.920 --> 00:11:40.910 Diane.Artal: and it's important to understand the significance of, in order to advise companies. And that's what what match you a kernel as is doing on the potential risk and over to teams associated with these issues
00:11:41.030 --> 00:11:49.260 Diane.Artal: from an environmental perspective. This company are facing increasing pressure to reduce their carbon footprint and mitigate the effective
00:11:49.270 --> 00:11:50.400 Diane.Artal: climate change.
00:11:50.500 --> 00:12:06.030 Diane.Artal: This can include actions such as transition to renewable energy or implementing sustainable practice, investing in clean energy or mitigating your aspects of the supply chain.
00:12:06.030 --> 00:12:11.310 Diane.Artal: So those are the the people that we see link to Asg.
00:12:13.280 --> 00:12:19.490 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Thanks so much. So we're gonna go to break. You've been listening to in tangible on talk radio dot nyc
00:12:19.520 --> 00:12:35.720 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: coming up. We're going to talk about how Esg impacts businesses, some of the Esg investment trends. But we're gonna look at how it impacts businesses in most industries beyond just the renewable energy sector from a legal and corporate and compliance perspective. We're very frank.
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00:14:49.130 --> 00:15:05.880 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: welcome back to in tang. If I on talk radio, Dot Nyc. So just before the break, Diane was sharing with us. Sorry my guests are Diane are tall, who is legal director from scale micro grids, and Matthew Carmel, who is the head of the environmental and sustainability practice, set off at current
00:15:06.190 --> 00:15:20.560 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: just before the break. Diane was explaining Esg, and it's important. But I also wanted to ask. I am about investment trends and sort of the importance in there. Do you have some comments on on sort of the tie in there.
00:15:20.860 --> 00:15:36.380 Diane.Artal: Yes, definitely. So. Besides the the current market term I, we're in proper governance and social standard. Are, you know, Victor Pitch, and we've seen this
00:15:36.380 --> 00:15:55.670 Diane.Artal: basically ramping up since 2,02020, 21 and 22 to the number of completed transactions in the clean technology is increasing for that that community amount of 15 billions in 22
00:15:55.670 --> 00:16:03.650 Diane.Artal: in this sector. So definitely there is a big green economy building up
00:16:06.090 --> 00:16:23.660 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: so there's. There's incentive, you know. There's there's there's investment, and there's a desire to pursue this. People. See this as an area where where money will be made. It's where we're going, Really, because it's maybe, where we need to go, and people are investing in it.
00:16:23.680 --> 00:16:28.390 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But at the same time there are a lot of
00:16:29.430 --> 00:16:37.110 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: rules and and compliance and legal issues that put pressure on businesses as a result of this.
00:16:37.170 --> 00:16:43.540 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: And and Matthew, I wanted to ask, you know, if you could comment on on some of those.
00:16:43.790 --> 00:16:46.490 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know. Compliance and legal issues faced by businesses
00:16:49.400 --> 00:16:59.650 Matthew Karmel: kind of come off absolutely. So. It's a wide range of issues that companies are basing now, and so it's. It's helpful to try to break it down into the different subsets
00:16:59.690 --> 00:17:01.970 Matthew Karmel: issues that are being faced.
00:17:08.030 --> 00:17:17.630 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So if you're still there, can you can. You give us? Can you give us an example? I think maybe you wanted to tell us a little bit about
00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:22.520 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: about emissions reporting in the you know, from the Sec. Perspective.
00:17:22.690 --> 00:17:33.490 Matthew Karmel: Yeah. So the Security and Exchange Commission in the United States regulates, you know, on the one hand, disclosures that can be made by public companies.
00:17:33.540 --> 00:17:37.100 You know, companies that are listed on public stock exchanges.
00:17:37.260 --> 00:17:45.430 Matthew Karmel: and there has been a rural proposal to require a public companies to report certain greenhouse gas.
00:17:51.540 --> 00:17:52.930 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I think we lost them.
00:17:54.590 --> 00:18:03.380 Matthew Karmel: There's been a a proposal. I'm not sure where it's cutting out apologies. The internet's gone incredibly unstable. But i'm going to turn my video off to try to help.
00:18:04.300 --> 00:18:13.000 Matthew Karmel: So there's a proposal out that requires public companies will require public companies to report certain greenhouse gas emissions
00:18:13.040 --> 00:18:18.070 Matthew Karmel: going forward. And so that is one element of this
00:18:18.080 --> 00:18:29.790 Matthew Karmel: pressure. Now, it's interesting to note that pressure is at the top of the pyramid on the Court Hierarchy in the United States. That's on the public companies, very large companies.
00:18:29.900 --> 00:18:37.340 Matthew Karmel: But we are seeing that trickle down to smaller businesses, smaller companies, and
00:18:37.350 --> 00:18:38.160 Matthew Karmel: you know.
00:18:38.520 --> 00:18:49.150 Matthew Karmel: Diane, maybe you to explain. You know, differences in the tiers of the missions and what the Securities and Exchange Commission is proposing to regulate here.
00:18:49.970 --> 00:19:05.020 Diane.Artal: Yes, so there is 3 basically 3 schools in the Green House, Gauss Protocol. So the scope number one refers only to emissions. Are there direct greenhouse emissions
00:19:05.120 --> 00:19:20.510 Diane.Artal: that occur, for example, from sources that are controlled by an organization. We can think of emissions with the fuel conditions in in furnace or vacuum or boiler.
00:19:21.860 --> 00:19:37.250 Diane.Artal: This type of things. The scope number 2 is about indirect emissions, greenhouse gas emissions associated with the purchase of service or products such as electricity, steam heat, or calling
00:19:37.320 --> 00:19:45.350 Diane.Artal: those type of emissions can physically occur at the facility where they are generated. If you have a premises
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:55.900 Diane.Artal: and they're accounted for in the organization a greenhouse gas inventory because their results of the organization energy use right?
00:19:56.360 --> 00:20:09.090 Diane.Artal: And the third one, which is the the downstream activities of your company. It's basically the result of activities from assets.
00:20:09.370 --> 00:20:16.550 Diane.Artal: not on a controlled by your own reporting organization, but by an organization directly
00:20:16.600 --> 00:20:27.360 Diane.Artal: that you that you affect in the value chain. So, for example, we can think of anything from
00:20:27.660 --> 00:20:44.250 Diane.Artal: just to give you examples. Anything in the chain of value with your suppliers, contractors, vendors, and the type of emissions that they meet on the on to provide you with your services and products.
00:20:47.970 --> 00:20:50.190 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So it sounds like it's like.
00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:55.770 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know your direct, you you, your direct relatives and your second cousins twice removed.
00:20:55.820 --> 00:20:57.960 Diane.Artal: Yeah, that's exactly it
00:20:58.520 --> 00:21:17.900 Matthew Karmel: exactly. And and Diane, if i'm not mistaken, I think the sec proposal only regulates the top 2 tiers, meaning, you know what you produce and and your sort of direct direct implications. But, as I was starting to say, I think one of the really interesting things is, how does this trickle down to smaller businesses?
00:21:17.900 --> 00:21:30.780 Matthew Karmel: Because certainly, like companies like Walmart and Exxon. And you know those big public companies that we're all aware of. They're gonna have to comply with this. But there's a whole host of companies that do business with those with those companies
00:21:30.870 --> 00:21:39.940 Matthew Karmel: that are going to get are going to need to provide climate data and understand that. So there's going to be, I think, a large education
00:21:40.260 --> 00:21:57.120 Matthew Karmel: practice over the next couple of years where small businesses, medium sizes are going to have to get up to speed on these issues also, in order to, you know, meet these standards, but also just meet the general consumer demand for companies, providing their climate change information.
00:21:58.390 --> 00:22:13.540 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So my interpreting those comments Matthew, as, or my translating that in my head as sort of the tier. 2 aspect in which these larger companies or the public companies, have reporting obligations.
00:22:13.810 --> 00:22:32.270 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: If they're going to get their, you know their products or services from from smaller businesses with whom they partner. They They're gonna be that information in order to in order for for them to comply with the with with the Sec. Guidelines is that it? Is that a correct interpretation?
00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:52.090 Matthew Karmel: Exactly. Exactly. And you're seeing this filter into supply, and then your contracts between large businesses and smaller businesses, so that you're seeing contract provisions start to be crafted to require these kinds of disclosures to even require emissions. Reductions in certain instances.
00:22:52.090 --> 00:22:56.650 Matthew Karmel: So it's. It's this cost of compliance, this compliance mechanism.
00:22:56.850 --> 00:23:03.660 Matthew Karmel: as you said, being passed from the from the from the top tier companies down to their ones they're doing business with.
00:23:03.750 --> 00:23:09.140 Matthew Karmel: and, you know, filtering through legal. But then this is also ultimately a business operational issue. As well.
00:23:10.310 --> 00:23:15.440 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Do we know how soon the these sec rules are are likely to take effect.
00:23:17.830 --> 00:23:30.930 Matthew Karmel: I think it's slated for a to 24 we'd have to we'd have to. I'd have to double check but it. I think it's slated to be to be enacted into in 2,024 so there's. There's a little bit of time still, and and I think there's a phasing period.
00:23:31.810 --> 00:23:37.800 Matthew Karmel: You know. One of the other areas that I think is really hot right now is green. Wash
00:23:37.860 --> 00:23:57.260 Matthew Karmel: and green washing is the is a term that you some advertising which really is claiming that your product has more in an environmental benefit than actually has, and this is regulated primarily in the United States by the Federal Trade Commission, and they're actually updating their guidance currently on what constitutes green washing.
00:23:57.260 --> 00:24:16.510 Matthew Karmel: They do that every 10 years. So last time I did, it was in 2,012. So you can imagine. A lot has changed since then, so we're getting, you know, a very different update of what constitutes green washing, and we're seeing you know this on the regulatory scope, but also we're seeing some enhanced litigation
00:24:16.510 --> 00:24:26.320 Matthew Karmel: where consumers and consumer groups are suing brands and companies over their environmental disclosures, all environmental advertising from this perspective.
00:24:28.260 --> 00:24:32.450 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah, I've I've seen that even over over the past
00:24:32.560 --> 00:24:36.170 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: 10 or so years in in my trademark practice
00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:55.210 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: as a small segment of what you're talking about with greenwashing, where where brands adopt names that suggest, or or or or tell consumers that they are green, you know. I remember lots of up around 2,012 lots of businesses were
00:24:55.210 --> 00:25:00.920 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: filing and trying to find the claim. Names, like all began with Eco! It was eco everything!
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:06.990 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Or bring, for that matter. So so I've certainly seen that, and i'm sure it's increasing.
00:25:07.570 --> 00:25:25.640 Diane.Artal: And if I can jump in here definitely, the update great green guides that the Ftc. Will populate will also provide new guidance on specific terms that we use on the times, which is renewable energy or carbon neutral.
00:25:25.700 --> 00:25:37.950 Diane.Artal: And what exactly does it mean? How do you quantify what is cavern neutral, and also the use of those certification and seals of approval that you
00:25:37.990 --> 00:25:54.060 Diane.Artal: see floating around. What did they mean? And and I think that's that's a very important topic for customers to know what they can turn to, and really provide them with the power to buy consciously, because
00:25:54.060 --> 00:25:58.260 Diane.Artal: the the customer wants to do that. But it it's very confusing. Actually.
00:26:00.610 --> 00:26:18.100 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Yeah, in a in a separate industry, like food and beverage, for example, you see that with in terms like organic. But you know, although the Government did step in and try to, you know, regulate that, and there are controls over that at the same time, there's a lot of consumer confusion.
00:26:18.150 --> 00:26:28.050 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: right? And and you, you see, you know, okay, these terms become regulated. But do they actually do people actually understand them? And and and when can they be used?
00:26:28.150 --> 00:26:36.750 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I think, I think, Matthew, you actually had a comment about like, When can you, when you can? You claim that something is recyclable.
00:26:38.180 --> 00:26:39.680 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Did you want to come in on that?
00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:53.080 Matthew Karmel: Yeah, I think you know that's a great topic, because that's one of the things I think that's primarily at issue in the green guides right now, which is.
00:26:53.090 --> 00:27:02.280 Matthew Karmel: and the distinction is one of those things that's going to be the elaborated during this processes Can you call something recyclable if it's theoretically recyclable.
00:27:02.490 --> 00:27:19.480 Matthew Karmel: or only if it is actually in practice recycled. And that's a really important difference, because our recycling infrastructure in the country is constantly being updated. New new products are being put on the market all the time, and so there's often a difference between.
00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:25.600 Matthew Karmel: Oh, You know, Theoretically, this product is recyclable, but my town County State
00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:42.610 Matthew Karmel: doesn't recycle this type of product, or if it hit the recycling facility, it wouldn't actually get separated out, or there's no actual end market for this product to be recycled into something new. And so that's one of the issues that I think is really easy for people to grasp
00:27:42.620 --> 00:27:48.470 Matthew Karmel: that is being considered during this, during during this green guides update Of
00:27:48.950 --> 00:27:56.170 Matthew Karmel: what is this difference between theoretical and actual? And what can be the basis of an actual claim?
00:28:00.410 --> 00:28:07.140 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Thanks. That's great. We're gonna we're gonna go to break. Now, when we when we come back
00:28:07.150 --> 00:28:19.470 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: we're gonna talk a little bit about environmental justice and and some other areas. So you've been listening to in Tang. If I on talk radio, dot Nyc. And we'll be right back.
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00:29:23.890 --> 00:29:48.000 Hey, Buddy it's Tommy D, the non-profit sector connector coming at you from my attic each week here on talk radio and Ny. Z. I host the program for Lambda can focus nonprofits in cocktails each and every day, and it's my focus to help them amplify their message and tell their story. Listen: each week at 10 a. M. Eastern standing time right here on talk radio, Dot Nyc.
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00:30:13.760 --> 00:30:14.360 to
00:30:20.380 --> 00:30:32.590 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: welcome back to in Tang. If i'm your host, Matthew as well. Our guests are Diane artel from scale micro grids and Matthew Carmel from Profit Kerman's environmental and sustainability practice.
00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:37.920 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Matthew looks like he dropped off due to the Internet issue. So hopefully, he'll be back in in a minute.
00:30:37.970 --> 00:30:45.680 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: But I wanted to ask Diane, if you could maybe comment on what
00:30:45.760 --> 00:30:48.410 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: environmental justices are.
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:58.810 Diane.Artal: Yes, definitely so environmental. Just this is really making sure that everyone in a specific sector area
00:30:58.860 --> 00:31:09.290 Diane.Artal: has access to the same rights when it comes to environmental welfare. For example.
00:31:09.360 --> 00:31:20.490 Diane.Artal: I'm: i'm gonna take the example of New Jersey, for example. That's 2 years ago past. It's first environmental, just as well. And
00:31:20.490 --> 00:31:32.130 Diane.Artal: now there are talks about whether or not a new gas by your power plan, should advance in the State of New Jersey close to new work.
00:31:32.140 --> 00:31:39.260 Diane.Artal: and how this will affect the population that already leaves in this area right?
00:31:39.380 --> 00:31:54.110 Diane.Artal: And so this is a technique that is of great importance, because usually you find gas, fire power plants, sewage facility, recycling facility in areas that are more
00:31:54.380 --> 00:32:09.240 Diane.Artal: core areas, no income communities. So that's number one. Number 2 as well is the access to electricity, water.
00:32:10.410 --> 00:32:16.790 Diane.Artal: food, etc. And how this community can have it, access to that and can afford it.
00:32:16.910 --> 00:32:18.770 Diane.Artal: And
00:32:19.030 --> 00:32:26.630 Diane.Artal: from my perspective that's what brought me to come into environmental and sustainability.
00:32:26.670 --> 00:32:36.910 Diane.Artal: I really wanted to be part of a solution that can bring energy to communities and municipality keys as well
00:32:38.060 --> 00:32:56.090 Diane.Artal: for people who cannot specifically afford it, and how we can finance this in advance. And that's what, for example, my appropriate solution. Does we finance? We own the assets, and then we provide the energy as service as a backup.
00:32:56.110 --> 00:33:01.010 Diane.Artal: It's complementary to meaning that if, for example, you have a bron out.
00:33:01.090 --> 00:33:19.300 Diane.Artal: and the utility is not providing electricity any more to sector the community or the municipality, or even a specific plans. What our distribution plan can still procure water to this community, and I think that's very important. That's
00:33:19.300 --> 00:33:36.970 Diane.Artal: It's not about just who can pay for it. But how we can finance it, and we will talk later on in this podcast as well about Ira and how this works Tax equity come into play. That's another broader topic, but very interesting.
00:33:36.970 --> 00:33:50.760 Diane.Artal: But, yes, the goal is really to make sure that those communities are not minimized for living in specific area. however, have access to what they need to make a proper.
00:33:55.080 --> 00:34:05.780 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So it's interesting how both of you kind of got into this field, essentially wanting to produce and wanting to build and wanting to support right looking for ways in which
00:34:05.810 --> 00:34:20.870 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you know you, you could get access right for for for people who who who are communities that that that Don't get good access or have groundhouse as an example, you know or not, just not just necessarily
00:34:20.940 --> 00:34:29.030 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: fighting the fight against You know the the toxic people or the the the companies that are doing, you know, polluting and things of that nature.
00:34:29.120 --> 00:34:31.620 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but I think is
00:34:31.639 --> 00:34:51.000 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: but also as part of this environmental justice sort of trying to make it happen. There also have been lots of fights, you know, and I think, as we were preparing for for for the podcast one of you had mentioned. Well, you know you really don't want that project in your backyard, and I think the other. I think, Diane, you were the one who said, but sometimes you do.
00:34:51.230 --> 00:35:02.200 Diane.Artal: I think that's I think that it was Matthew, Colonel. I think that he is not able. He dropped off. But i'm, i'm gonna keep you going.
00:35:02.200 --> 00:35:15.080 Diane.Artal: I just mentioned that community solar is Sometimes some projects may face mitigation because they didn't get proper approval. Zoning at Google or permits, and there are some litigations that
00:35:15.180 --> 00:35:30.270 Diane.Artal: come from the community around people living in the neighborhood who do not want those committees or projects building nearby, but it's it's also from my perspective. I came from the backyard.
00:35:30.390 --> 00:35:40.650 Diane.Artal: There are climate changes that we're facing. There are brown outs. You can take for example, California, everything that has been happening for the last past few years.
00:35:40.700 --> 00:36:08.670 Diane.Artal: and you want people to have access and continue to have access to energy. Otherwise nothing is functioning anymore if you remove the electricity. so it's absolutely of, probably on. You know priority that people continue to have access, and that's what brought me to this topic, and being involved in in environment and sustainability, so yes
00:36:08.690 --> 00:36:12.200 Diane.Artal: much you. I think that you're back if you want to jump in.
00:36:15.050 --> 00:36:16.020 Diane.Artal: met you.
00:36:17.230 --> 00:36:30.050 Matthew Karmel: Yes, so what I wanted to add was, you know, a. As, as Matt was saying a couple of minutes ago, Matthew, as I was saying 4 min ago. Environmental justice is this larger con
00:36:30.070 --> 00:36:32.790 Matthew Karmel: concept that is attended to address.
00:36:32.830 --> 00:36:39.140 Matthew Karmel: Now, these projects that are quote unquote in someone's backyard. And so I I think it it's.
00:36:39.690 --> 00:36:47.980 Matthew Karmel: It's another one of these regulatory mechanisms that we've been talking about to bring Esg into a ground level decision.
00:36:48.050 --> 00:36:57.600 Matthew Karmel: So there are many different types of environmental justice regulations that end up getting past. They've flow from the range of from.
00:36:58.140 --> 00:37:03.930 Matthew Karmel: you know, just like task forces that are studying the issue all the way down to
00:37:04.030 --> 00:37:20.480 Matthew Karmel: actual, practical technical. You know, we are going to look at all of these factors and try to figure out what that says about the environmental justice impacts of this decision. And then we're going to guide a as a State agency. It's going to guide its decision
00:37:20.510 --> 00:37:25.530 Matthew Karmel: on that action based on the environmental justice issues. And we're seeing.
00:37:25.640 --> 00:37:44.640 Matthew Karmel: i'd say, an expansion, a a a very rapid expansion of those regulations that are on the stricter. You know, more prescriptive end of the spectrum of New Jersey, which has an environmental justice law that's probably the toughest in the nation, and is going to have, you know, become fully effective
00:37:44.670 --> 00:38:01.080 Matthew Karmel: in the next month or so with adopted regulations. We have New York passing similar law. Massachusetts, with a similar law, Connecticut, coming into place so so very northeast heavy. But California has it. And if you were to throw a map up on the of of
00:38:01.080 --> 00:38:05.000 Matthew Karmel: States that have environmental justice policies, you'd be surprised. It's about how
00:38:05.540 --> 00:38:13.230 Matthew Karmel: the States in the Union that have these kinds of policies with the smattering, maybe 6 to 7 that have some of the stricter ones.
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:22.240 Diane.Artal: and and I think that this is absolutely necessary that it exists, and those type of of laws and regulation are passed.
00:38:22.620 --> 00:38:26.410 Diane.Artal: True. So you're right.
00:38:28.490 --> 00:38:34.790 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So I have a question for you that I didn't prepare you guys for. But it sort of comes out of what you guys were just saying
00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:37.560 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: which is, you know, if you've got
00:38:37.830 --> 00:38:58.190 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: well, let me use. Let me go by analogy. Okay, by analogy in in in my world and intellectual property and and related areas. You know, some of the some of the laws that come into play are local privacy laws, right? We have a privacy law in in Virginia, privacy, law, and California.
00:38:58.200 --> 00:39:02.240 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: We have the Gdpr in Europe, right? And and
00:39:02.510 --> 00:39:04.350 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: there's an element of
00:39:04.390 --> 00:39:18.880 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: largely because people are on the Internet, but there's an element of when you serve people in different parts of the world, or different states. or when you need certain requirements, income or whatever.
00:39:18.990 --> 00:39:29.400 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: The privacy. Law applies extra territorially essentially to you know, so so that you have a as a company you have kind of a least common denominator approach to the way you would deal with it
00:39:29.500 --> 00:39:37.470 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: right. I have to comply with the the Europe's Gdpr. Law, the Brazilian privacy law, the California practically lots, etc.
00:39:37.670 --> 00:39:55.180 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: How is it when it comes to these types of environmental justice laws? I I recognize that at least some aspect of like as access to utilities is fairly local, but I don't know I would. Just maybe there are elements of there's a New Jersey
00:39:55.340 --> 00:40:01.310 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Environmental Justice law really end up impacting companies that are outside of New Jersey.
00:40:03.520 --> 00:40:13.370 Matthew Karmel: So environmental justice tends to be a local issue. A community based issue because it's at its base it's about
00:40:13.720 --> 00:40:31.120 Matthew Karmel: polluting facilities predominantly being cited in low-income communities and a and minority communities. So it becomes a local issue. Now it's not confined to those communities, because those communities don't exist in a bubble. So you can have an impact
00:40:31.120 --> 00:40:39.480 Matthew Karmel: to a community from a neighboring community, from a neighboring state. But the environmental justice laws that I've seen typically when they.
00:40:39.520 --> 00:40:43.770 Matthew Karmel: when they extend beyond the impacted communities, they extend within a fixed
00:40:48.440 --> 00:40:53.440 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Thank you for that, and and especially for responding without having been prepared for the question.
00:40:53.500 --> 00:41:05.620 Diane.Artal: Yeah, if you want, I can. I can jump in and just mentioned that's I think that's when I If you see this from the Enterprise perspective.
00:41:05.620 --> 00:41:25.800 Diane.Artal: If you are a global enterprise international, you definitely have to take into account specific closed our past. In Europe, for example, they're much advanced on whether it's that's a privacy, for example, or even environments, regulation environmental regulations.
00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:32.340 Diane.Artal: And definitely, there is a trend that is coming usually from your And then
00:41:32.540 --> 00:41:45.940 Diane.Artal: that's push certain companies that have global impact to text certain regulations and and adapt their compliance rules globally.
00:41:47.120 --> 00:41:57.040 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So even though many of the laws are highly localized, because the companies, maybe, and what they're doing sort of have broader reach.
00:41:57.650 --> 00:42:16.170 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: and they don't want to do a different thing needs different place. They kind of have at least common denominator, approach or no, I I would say, this is more applicable to Esg. And Ftc. Roles. With respect to what is renewable energy, environmental pollution, etc. Then environmental justice, unfortunately.
00:42:16.190 --> 00:42:19.060 Diane.Artal: which is the
00:42:21.390 --> 00:42:37.480 Matthew Karmel: and but I think the question is a really great one, because there is a specific example of this in the United States where California has enacted some climate, disclosure laws for companies. So not from the Environmental Justice Perspective.
00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:48.850 Matthew Karmel: but harkening back to the securities and Exchange Commission discussion. We're having earlier on California is trying to set the lowest common denominator for climate disclosures.
00:42:49.110 --> 00:42:56.770 Matthew Karmel: because based on if you do, a certain amount of business in California, and are certain size. They are going to try to make you make certain climate disclosures
00:42:56.860 --> 00:43:02.460 Matthew Karmel: that, as I said, set this, so you're seeing it in the climate disclosure basis, because that is a much more
00:43:06.310 --> 00:43:21.850 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: lost to you again, I think. But but thank you for that, both of you. We're gonna go to break when we come back. We're gonna talk a little bit about not only the obligations and risks, but actually the opportunities there are for for for businesses.
00:43:21.850 --> 00:43:26.930 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: So you've been listening to in Tang. If I on talk radio, dot Nyc and we will be right back.
00:43:30.390 --> 00:43:54.490 Hey, everybody, it's Tommy d the nonprofit sector connector coming at you from my attic each week here on talk radio and nyc I hosted program for the lab of game focus non-profits impact us each and every day, and it's my focus to help them amplify their message and tell their story Listen. Each week at 10 a. M. Eastern stand in time until 11, a. M. Eastern standing time right here on talk radio and Myc
00:43:55.300 --> 00:44:23.120 in that Post- movement world. You may have many unanswered questions regarding your health. Are you looking to live a healthier lifestyle? Do you have a desire to learn more about mental health, and enhance your quality of life. Or do you just want to participate in self-understanding and awareness? I'm. Frank R. Harrison host of Frank about health, and each Thursday I will tackle these questions and work to enlight you. Tune in every at 5 P. M. On talk, radio and Nyc and I will be frank about help to advocate, for all of us.
00:44:26.630 --> 00:44:56.920 Are you a conscious co-creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness I'm Sam Leibowitz, your conscious consultant, and on my show the conscious consultant hour awakening humanity. We will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen. Live at our new time on Thursdays, at 12 noon Eastern time. That's the conscious consultant hour awakening humanity. Thursday's 12, noon on Talk Radio and Nyc.
00:45:01.290 --> 00:45:11.230 You're listening to talk radio, Nyc: at Ww: talk radio Andyc now broadcasting 24 h a day.
00:45:21.660 --> 00:45:22.260 me
00:45:24.690 --> 00:45:25.300 to
00:45:31.600 --> 00:45:45.500 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: given the thing to in tang. If I on talk radio, dot ny see, i'm your host, Matthew asked. All my guests are Diane from scale micro grids, and Matthew Carmel from off at Hermans Environmental and Sustainability Law Group.
00:45:47.110 --> 00:45:57.240 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: We were talking before the break about some of the environmental justice laws, and prior to that, some of the risks and obligations for for for companies.
00:45:57.310 --> 00:46:03.680 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: I wanted to come back to that and ask you, Matthew.
00:46:03.870 --> 00:46:14.050 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: about? You know the other side of the coin? Are there opportunities for businesses, and what are they? Why should they embrace those opportunities?
00:46:15.030 --> 00:46:19.490 Matthew Karmel: So if we get in a Time machine and go back to 2,010
00:46:19.560 --> 00:46:24.990 Matthew Karmel: businesses were asking the question of whether sustainability was profitable.
00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:31.950 Matthew Karmel: whether a but and it was really funny at the time to see how much of a debate there was about that.
00:46:32.030 --> 00:46:38.010 Matthew Karmel: because over time there have been studies and studies and studies, showing that
00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:48.210 Matthew Karmel: companies that are proactive and at the forefront of sustainability outperform companies that are not in actively engaging with sustainability.
00:46:48.220 --> 00:47:00.160 Matthew Karmel: And we're seeing that across different sustainability metrics. We've seen reports specific to environmental justice. We're seeing reports specific to sustainability. So my
00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:11.010 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: looks like we lost you got you on on mute can. Are you a good on yourself?
00:47:14.710 --> 00:47:25.910 Matthew Karmel: So, yes, so my perspective is that you know these trends have now become established, and as new sustainability solutions come online. I think we can kind of take it on faith
00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:35.720 Matthew Karmel: that these are going to be things that are going to be profitable for businesses. So it's equally important to think. Okay, all of these regulatory requirements we've been talking about.
00:47:35.750 --> 00:47:40.440 Matthew Karmel: Yeah, the regulatory requirements. But at the same point in time
00:47:41.380 --> 00:47:50.430 Matthew Karmel: they are guidelines for companies to get involved in these types of things. So even if your company isn't subject to any of these laws that we've discussed.
00:47:50.540 --> 00:47:58.160 Matthew Karmel: each of them provides a pathway, and I've actually been contacted by many businesses who aren't subject to these laws. But say
00:47:58.210 --> 00:48:01.110 Matthew Karmel: we want to understand how to incorporate X
00:48:01.230 --> 00:48:06.290 Matthew Karmel: Y or Z sustainability concept into our business. And
00:48:07.390 --> 00:48:17.680 Matthew Karmel: can you explain how this law works? Can we use this as an example because people need frameworks? I mean. That's the thing where we're making these complex decisions. Sustainability is adding up
00:48:17.700 --> 00:48:21.830 Matthew Karmel: complex series of factors to your already complicated business decisions.
00:48:22.530 --> 00:48:28.450 Matthew Karmel: But it doesn't have to be too complicated. You can set really simple
00:48:28.610 --> 00:48:44.680 Matthew Karmel: protocols to incorporate sustainability into into any of these concepts into really any business. And it starts the first instance, i'd say, by determining what matters to your business on sustainability. Build your sustainability story.
00:48:44.870 --> 00:49:04.340 Matthew Karmel: and that's really the first step, and that's what everyone can do. Maybe you care about sustainability because your brand intersex with the specific consumer population that cares about sustainability or that's impacted in certain way. Maybe you care about it for personal reasons. You know it didn't, but it's important to crash that story
00:49:04.340 --> 00:49:09.850 Matthew Karmel: at an individual and corporate level. But that lead the way, because this
00:49:09.890 --> 00:49:12.570 Matthew Karmel: at its base is something that
00:49:13.330 --> 00:49:32.820 Matthew Karmel: is a mission. And I think you heard that from meeting Diane, where we shifted because we felt a call to do this type of work, and I think many people who who are interested in building this into their decisions feel a call as well. So telling that story is the first step to incorporating this into your decisions, even if you're not subject to the regulations.
00:49:36.110 --> 00:49:41.720 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Great. Thank you. I I I would end on that if I could. But I think we we got a few more minutes. Simple.
00:49:41.850 --> 00:49:50.460 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: you're going, but you know I I think there is part of this idea of sort of looking at the other side of the coin, right where you have.
00:49:50.500 --> 00:49:57.420 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: You have regulations and responsibilities and risks that drive change, and you have
00:49:58.740 --> 00:50:07.120 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: fear and misinformation, and then the difficulties in making a change that prevent people from wanting to do that. And then you also have the
00:50:07.170 --> 00:50:26.040 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: incentive and and the benefit and the how to make your business. You know more profitable in the future, and kind of all the good reasons why you should do it, and I I think, Diane, you and I were talking to talking about that even before the program started to sort of like. There's this
00:50:26.040 --> 00:50:29.860 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: real pessimistic heaven, you know view. And then there's sort of the
00:50:30.120 --> 00:50:33.730 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: the exact opposite, like all sorts of reasons to do these
00:50:34.230 --> 00:50:36.100 Diane.Artal: exact. And I
00:50:36.290 --> 00:50:46.800 Diane.Artal: I think that's from a government perspective with the Inflation Prediction act. What the Government is trying to do is to give a push
00:50:46.860 --> 00:51:01.610 Diane.Artal: for the industry, to try to come up with solutions to see a bright future and come up with optimistic solutions. And that's that's where I I come from, and I think that met you as well.
00:51:01.610 --> 00:51:20.750 Diane.Artal: And so just in a few minutes that that is left to us. Maybe we can talk a little bit about this Sensation Prediction Act, which is a a, and a very difficult sometimes to understand, especially because some guidelines were not yet provided
00:51:20.940 --> 00:51:32.330 Diane.Artal: by the governments. and my understanding is that as here, the Assistance secretary for a tax pretty bachelor
00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:46.130 Diane.Artal: published for Mark on March 22. There is specific guidance that are supposed to arrive in the news on transferability of text, for example.
00:51:46.160 --> 00:52:02.760 Diane.Artal: in the next quarter. But for now, what I can tell you is that basically a very high takeaway level. It increased the term and the value of the the tax credit for many distributed generation. Technologies
00:52:02.840 --> 00:52:10.060 Diane.Artal: provide LGBT to Somerset for a Pct. Instead of storage
00:52:10.070 --> 00:52:28.990 Diane.Artal: assets for Itc. And then for this a bunch of adders. So what are those others? So basically you have a tax credit adder. When you can bump up the number of fast credit that you can get if you have this, the the mystic content, energy community.
00:52:29.050 --> 00:52:45.250 Diane.Artal: or, if you serve long term company, and those have adders to the minimum already provided by the law. Also there are 2 other topics that are: H. One is the direct pay that allows certain
00:52:45.250 --> 00:52:50.310 taxes and and government entities to receive it as a cash for fund
00:52:50.360 --> 00:52:58.670 Diane.Artal: under tax return, and also the transfer. Dvt. Meaning that that allows tax credits for projects
00:52:58.860 --> 00:53:09.240 Diane.Artal: meeting certain criteria to be solved for cash to third party. But does not all the transfer of the depreciation benefits? So
00:53:09.240 --> 00:53:19.920 Diane.Artal: we're all waiting for more guidance on this. And I think that's much, you. This is something also that you can come in on, because
00:53:20.010 --> 00:53:25.810 Diane.Artal: this is something that I guess your clients are interested in about
00:53:32.210 --> 00:53:33.830 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Matthew. Do you have any comments on that?
00:53:36.040 --> 00:53:48.920 Matthew Karmel: Sorry I was. I was cutting in and out again at at the end. There, I think that you know, so I call it what Diane was saying initially about the got looking for the guidance on the transferability of tax credits, and I do think that there is.
00:53:49.110 --> 00:54:03.030 Matthew Karmel: you know a lot that we're still waiting to see, and and I think we we will need to see a lot of, you know trickle down of these issues, and how to companies protect themselves and make sure that they're getting the most out of the tax credits.
00:54:06.050 --> 00:54:23.390 Diane.Artal: Yeah. So I think that this is part my you of of a trend where the Government is trying to push, as we mentioned, trying to push for companies also to find solution and be proactive, and why we do recognize that there is a need also to protect
00:54:23.550 --> 00:54:27.100 Diane.Artal: the consumers. the communities
00:54:27.160 --> 00:54:30.760 Diane.Artal: there. There is definitely a
00:54:30.790 --> 00:54:34.060 Diane.Artal: a trends and a need for
00:54:34.120 --> 00:54:43.850 Diane.Artal: the companies and the consumer to be aware that climate change is a reality, and that we need to
00:54:43.890 --> 00:54:52.360 Diane.Artal: act because a passive behavior is no longer something. I believe that we have the luxury
00:54:52.400 --> 00:54:59.620 Diane.Artal: to have, and that that's why I think that much. You and I had a kind of a wake up. Call at some point
00:54:59.920 --> 00:55:02.180 Diane.Artal: where we decided, okay.
00:55:02.220 --> 00:55:07.790 Diane.Artal: what we're doing is great, but now it's we need it's time for action
00:55:08.350 --> 00:55:10.590 Matthew Karmel: Exactly.
00:55:12.490 --> 00:55:22.790 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Great. Well, thank you both so much. We we we're gonna end now unless either of you have a maybe a final message. You'd like to share with the entrepreneurs in our audience.
00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:40.380 Diane.Artal: Well, much you and I are available. I think that you can reach out to us if you have any question about this podcast through met you as well, and intensify. So feel free to reach out. If
00:55:40.410 --> 00:55:42.700 Diane.Artal: you you want to discuss brother.
00:55:46.010 --> 00:55:58.590 Matthew D. Asbell, Esq: Okay, Well, thank you both. So much for being here and for this very thoughtful discussion. I learned a lot that I did not know, so thank you for for educating me and our audience, and we'll see you next time.