Employment Law Today

Tuesday, September 13, 2022
Facebook Live Video from 2022/09/13 - I Always Feel Like Somebody's Watching Me: Monitoring Employees' Social Media and Internet Usage.

Facebook Live Video from 2022/09/13 - I Always Feel Like Somebody's Watching Me: Monitoring Employees' Social Media and Internet Usage.


2022/09/13 - I Always Feel Like Somebody's Watching Me: Monitoring Employees' Social Media and Internet Usage.

[NEW EPISODE] I Always Feel Like Somebody's Watching Me: Monitoring Employees' Social Media and Internet Usage.


The audience (business owners) will learn what types of monitoring of their employees' computer use and social media use is and is not acceptable, what advanced notice must be given to workers of monitoring/surveillance, and will further learn when an employee's social media posts about work are protected, even when offensive to the company or to you, the boss.


Many states and municipalities are passing laws about an employer's right to surveillance of their employees' social media posts, internet searches, and computer use while on the job. With the increase in a remote workforce and many employees logging in to work from the privacy of their own homes, these rules around notifying employees of their electronic monitoring can get quite complicated.

In addition, with other employees using social media for posts about their working conditions, which may include insults to the employer and calls to unionize, employers need to be cautious about their responses to "offensive" social media posts by their employees. How can employers monitor what their employees are doing, without breaching state laws, or violating their privacy?

In this episode, fellow employment law attorney Jon Hyman, Esq, and I will discuss which labor and employment laws come into play when it comes to monitoring an employee. We will address what the law says about an employer responding to employees' social media usage outside of working hours and will address any protections of employees' speech that may come into play under the NLRA and other laws. 

Tune in Tuesday, September 13 for every employer's must-see episode! 

Jon’s Profile:



Twitter: jonhyman


Tune in for this informative conversation at

Show Notes

Segment 1

Eric welcomes his guest, fellow employment law attorney Jon Hyman! Jon is a shareholder and director at Wickens Herzer Panza, a law firm in Northeast Ohio. He is a chairperson of the firm's Employment and Labor practice group. Jon is also one of the co-founders and co-practice group leaders of the Firm's Craft Beer practice. He helps brewers, brew pubs and restaurants, and businesses that serve the craft beer industry. Eric also introduces tonight's topic which is about monitoring employees’ social media and internet use. Jon says that he somewhat fell into the world of employment law. He started at an employment law boutique right out of law school and has done employment law for the past 25 years. He says that the workplace to him is a fascinating area of the law to practice as the workplace is a place we spend more time in and there's a relationship between employees and employers. The law that regulates this relationship is something he finds to be fascinating. As for craft beer, he mentions this as just working on something else that he loves which has developed since the pandemic.

Segment 2

Eric and Jon talk about the legal rights and conditions as well as limitations employers have to monitor employees' computer and internet use. Jon says that if it's on a device owned by the employer, then their right to monitor the traffic that goes through the devices is very broad. Some states have regulations requiring notices like in California. But overall, employers can do what they want with their equipment and don't really require to give notice about this. For Jon, if he’s drafting a handbook or policy for an employer, he'll put a notice anyway as he feels like it's important for the employer and employee to be on the same page on what is being monitored. Eric and Jon believe that there is a tremendous misconception around privacy rights that employees have or don't have. Jon says that your time as an employee belongs to the employer and although some businesses have different regulations, it's not illegal for employers to heavily monitor employees. Jon makes a point that if someone wants to spend 5 minutes to see what's going on on Facebook or CNN, as an employer, it wouldn't matter to him as long as they're doing their job and getting it done. Unfortunately this isn't the vase for all employers. They also address other privacy concerns like surveillance cameras on the work computer that can happen at the employees home.

Segment 3

Jon and Eric mention time and hourly wages coming into light as a big issue even now with remote work. Eric gives an example of an employer emailing or texting their employee after their work hours asking them to respond to messages or get something done. This would be time that should be counted but it may not be seen as such with every employer. For Jon, he believes that all of this comes down to trust. He says that if you don't trust your employees to get the job done, you need to take a step back and take a look at why you may not be trusting your employees and what's the underlying issue. Eric mentions different scenarios of whether it may be low pay, unrewarding, low motivation, unrealistic expectations and more for reasons employees may be doing non related work activities. Jon questions: how far can one go to ensure that your employees are doing their work 24/7 during their work hours? Eric also brings up the concern of what an employer might want to be careful about when responding to what they see such as a social media post from an employee that may have some expression of anger or other issues in the workplace. Jon says that employees have the right under the National Labor Relations Act, to talk among themselves about the workplace. Jon mentions that in this era of technology, if an employer sees what employees are talking about online, it gives them the opportunity to fix some of the issues instead of taking it in negatively.

Segment 4

After the final break, Eric asks Jon about some unique approaches that he and Wickens Herzer Panza take when providing employment law services and how they stand out. Jon says that being a smaller firm, it allows them to know their clients and businesses a little more. This also allows them to be more flexible. He says that they're in the process of rolling out subscription services that allow employers to receive services like investigations, handbooks and other services. He also mentions the way his clients view him as he doesn't just give them options, but he guides them to make their decisions to help their business. Jon says that he likes to view himself as a business partner with his clients. You can contact Jon Hyman on Linkedin as Jonathan Hyman, Twitter, and more.


00:00:55.100 --> 00:01:24.340 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Good evening. Welcome to employment of law. Today I am your host, Aaron Sovereign. I'm an employment law and business law attorney here in New York and I host this live weekly talk radio shows live weekly video broadcast every Tuesday night from five P. M. To six P. M. Eastern Standard time right here on top three to at Nyc, where I have guests who discuss some of the most novel and interesting challenges and issues that employers and business owners are facing

00:01:24.350 --> 00:01:38.309 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: in light of these trying times, and in that regard I'm. Very excited tonight to have on the show a fellow comrade of the employment law attorney from Ohio, Attorney John Hyman. John. Welcome to the show!

00:01:40.280 --> 00:01:43.120 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Oh, sorry! I think you might be muted,

00:01:43.960 --> 00:02:02.850 Jon Hyman: you know. You would think you would think, after thirty months of doing everything through zoom that you would know to check if your microphone is muted before you go live on the radio. Um. I did not do that, but i'm here now. So let's try that again, Eric. Man thanks for having me. It's really good to be here.

00:02:02.860 --> 00:02:18.989 Jon Hyman: Sure, I agree that you, too, John, you know, I think with so much zoom that was sort of thing you're conscious of in the beginning. But then I just one of those minor things that you know no sweat. I've done it, too, so we we should all have advanced degrees in um virtual meetings at this point.

00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:32.849 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Absolutely. That's right. Well, that's the worst glitch. Um! You know of the show There, I think we're in great shape. So, but it's great to have you on time. I want to, you know. Just auto, I guess a little bit something about about you, what you do, and you know you're in your background. Then we can.

00:02:32.860 --> 00:02:55.170 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: I'll get into our topic tonight. So, as I mentioned folks, our guest tonight is Attorney John Hyman, John, as a shareholder and director at Wickens herdser in Panza, the law firm out in Ohio, where he is a chairperson of the firm's employment and labor practice. He's also a co-chair person of its craft, beer, practice group

00:02:55.180 --> 00:03:14.480 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: and a member of its litigation partner. But John focuses his practice on management side labored employment law, as do I in New York, providing proactive solutions to solve their workforce problems and reactive solutions when they find themselves litigating against an employee or a group of

00:03:14.490 --> 00:03:43.150 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: John, who also serves a nation that craft, beer, industry, assisting brewers, group pubs and restaurants and businesses that serve that industry to navigate their specialized business, legal and regulatory. Jon as the author of the Renowned and award-winning Ohio lawyer, law, blog, an American bar association blog hall of Fame Ducti, which he updates delhi to provide businesses and human resource professionals breaking news under upbeat

00:03:43.160 --> 00:04:02.789 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: on the ever-changing landscape of labor and employment and finally an interesting fact about John. He was in a one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine contestant on who wants to be a millionaire, but sadly lacked the fastest page, so i'm sure it must have been an interesting show. John. And yeah, here you are now, twenty, three years later, on

00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:10.490 Jon Hyman: even broadcast. No one million-dollar prize but I bet a million dollar conversation and interesting points to make in that we will be rewarded in different ways.

00:04:10.500 --> 00:04:12.779 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Yes, very much. And our audience as well.

00:04:12.790 --> 00:04:36.619 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Listener tonight out there, and i'm sitting on talk radio listening on apple spotlights. Fisher. Um, Google Podcast. What have you so aren't you for tonight? I do. You um. Maybe trap the same age as John and myself, like part of the song. Well, I I always feel like somebody is watching. Ah, monitoring employees, social media and Internet usage for those younger folks out there listening to the song from early eighties. But

00:04:36.630 --> 00:04:44.089 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: what we're talking about really is this topic of employers monitoring their employees Internet and computer use of Chen.

00:04:44.100 --> 00:05:03.930 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: The issue really here is that many states and municipalities are passing laws about an employer's right to monitor their employees. Social media posts, Internet searches and computing is wrong in the general, and with the increase in a remote workforce, and many employees logging into work from the privacy of their own homes.

00:05:03.940 --> 00:05:21.299 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: These rules around notifying employees on electronic monitoring can get quite complicated and intentionally where, with other employees using social media posts about their working conditions which may include insult to the employer, and calls to unionize and go on. One post.

00:05:21.310 --> 00:05:28.639 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Employers need to be very cautious about their response to these offensive social media posts by their employees.

00:05:28.850 --> 00:05:36.989 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: So the question becomes, How can employers monitor what their employees are doing without reaching State laws or violating their privacy?

00:05:37.000 --> 00:06:01.189 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: And in this episode, John and I will discuss which labor and employment laws come into play when it comes to monitoring an employee, and we'll talk about what the law says, in terms of an employer responding to employers social media usage outside of working hours. And lastly, we'll address any protections of employee speech that may come into play under the Nlr. And its National Relations Act and other wrongs.

00:06:01.200 --> 00:06:07.879 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: So once again, you know with that, John, I think it'll be interesting discussion for audience tonight,

00:06:08.030 --> 00:06:09.619 Jon Hyman: looking forward to it.

00:06:09.630 --> 00:06:10.989 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Yeah, Same here.

00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:25.019 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Well, you know my first question, John. I always ask my guests. Just tell us a bit more about yourself like mainly. How did your career initiative start out? And then what prompted you to become an employment law attorney, particularly focused on this niche of the craft, beer and redbridge industry.

00:06:25.290 --> 00:06:44.879 Jon Hyman: Yeah, I I guess i'd always like to say that I kind of fell into employment law, but I mean it's kind of half true. I mean it was the courses I I took, I guess, an employment law heavy course load in law school, and and knew I wanted to be an employment lawyer. I started at an employment law boutique right out of law school,

00:06:44.890 --> 00:06:49.720 Jon Hyman: and have done employment law for the past twenty five years, representing employers. I think

00:06:50.980 --> 00:07:01.169 Jon Hyman: the workplace to me is a fascinating area of the law to practice in, because I think the workplace aside from

00:07:01.180 --> 00:07:17.600 Jon Hyman: um, I think we spend more time at work than anywhere else. Our Our relationship we have with our employer is, aside from the relationship with our spouses and our children is probably the most impactful and important relationship in our lives. And so to me,

00:07:17.610 --> 00:07:33.690 Jon Hyman: Um, the law That kind of regulates that relationship is incredibly fascinating because it's incredibly personal to employees, and on the employer side. When you know an employee, you know, sues for discrimination. For example,

00:07:33.700 --> 00:07:51.730 Jon Hyman: employers take that very personally as well, because it's they they, and oftentimes they often do that, as the employee saying, You know you're a big If you're a racist, you're a sexist, whatever you know, whatever the claim, the litigation may be, so both both sides take it extremely personally, and so I've always found that to be

00:07:51.740 --> 00:08:12.759 Jon Hyman: fascinating, you know, on the Craft beer thing. It's a that's a relatively new initiative of mine. And so i'll give. I'll give two answers. Number one. You gotta do what you love, and um, for fear of um coming off like a booze hound, which i'm not. I do. I do really enjoy craft beer, and I've and I've represented a number of grand breweries

00:08:12.770 --> 00:08:27.180 Jon Hyman: here in northeast Ohio over the years, but separately from that, I think, like most employment lawyers back in you know, the early part of two thousand and twenty we all shifted into pandemic mode, and I think we all

00:08:27.190 --> 00:08:55.599 Jon Hyman: very quickly became pandemic lawyers or Covid lawyers advising our clients on, you know the in and out of the pandemic. Um! Stay at home. Orders? Ah, you know reopenings, masks, vaccines, um isolation quarantine. You know all the stuff that went with the pandemic, and that kept me very, very busy, for ah! You know the better part of of Covid. And then, as the world started to reopen. As we all got vaccinated,

00:08:55.610 --> 00:09:00.339 Jon Hyman: or most of us got vaccinated, and the Covid work started to dry up.

00:09:00.350 --> 00:09:28.120 Jon Hyman: I started thinking to myself, you know. Where am I going to put my efforts next? From a kind of marketing standpoint and business growth standpoint? And having represented breweries and enjoying that space in that world. Um! I decided that I was going to put that behind starting a a craft year practice, which is, you know, relatively new. So it's. We started it about nine months ago, you know, representing breweries in and around northeast, Ohio and elsewhere.

00:09:28.130 --> 00:09:40.560 Jon Hyman: My Internet platform gives me a lot of reach, so i'm able to kind of connect with breweries not just kind of in within driving distance, but kind of all over the country. So it's been a a nice little. It's been a nice little nice little side project.

00:09:40.920 --> 00:09:55.689 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Yeah, you know. Wow, John, and everything you were saying, I identified what you related to in terms of why you became an employment lawyer, starting there with, you know, in law school classes being very fascinating to me about climate law, and I agree with you. It's a very personalized.

00:09:55.700 --> 00:10:25.430 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: We have a lot of a lot of psychology about a lot of human dynamics, of human relations and emotions, and to me it's like a mix of like sort of psychology in some ways and sort of micro-level sociology and just um And then, of course, ah! Analyzing situations. What the law says. You know, with the the practices, you know the gray areas that I interpret that. So I hear you about this. You know the idea that, and the impact of becoming an employment attorney, and I agree with you that you know, having represented the employee side, especially for

00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:55.270 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: the first thing fourteen, fifteen was my career before pivoting nine years ago to the um, the Florida side. Um, you're right. Both sides take it very wrestling when they're being soon, or the threat of a of a lawsuit. So I think it's really something that we can seven to this this area that needs help, and, you know, guide our our clients advocate in the compassionate way. Um! So that's interesting. Of course you know the the craft beer. Do what you love Um! I thought you were going to tell me they give me discounts on the beer, but if they

00:10:55.280 --> 00:11:09.289 Jon Hyman: we're not, you know great to have some area. That's the really, you know. Problem is that works both ways right? So if I walk in to a client and I get a discount on beer, they're gonna discount on their invoice. And so, yeah,

00:11:09.300 --> 00:11:19.589 Jon Hyman: as someone tells me that you know the the money he's saved on the beer a couple of years was not, and that's what they would say. You know I have to talk on, but I mean no comment, but probably not

00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:24.229 Jon Hyman: probably not. Yeah, It' be another conversation that they would show, you know.

00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:41.789 Jon Hyman: But that's you know that's really that's great, you know. And yeah, it's sort of a pandemic and all it's impact. You know. I'm good to hear that. You know this year you know you and I, I think, spoke when we both went to um the same on, and I went to Binghamton University. I became tens of, and I was back in there, and they were like, probably in the Ninety S. So Little Bear cats, although they were the Colonials when you and I were both there. So

00:11:41.800 --> 00:11:55.419 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: right? Yeah, yeah. So you know that's the age of But you know it's not an issue. I'm sure we talk about a lot of practicing, but but they have great great stuff here. I think it's a good way to start out, you know, and they would just get a sense of like who you are and what

00:11:55.430 --> 00:12:22.390 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: motivate you and stuff. So I appreciate that, you know. I think what's interesting, too, is when you have a niche area like that also. And you kind of get a sense of what issues they have, and sometimes their issues are very common to other fields. Right? You've got, you know, like wage it out over time issues and minimum wage. And the time you have ah allegations of discrimination. But then there are like liquor licensing and regulations around the industry that i'm sure they probably deal with as well.

00:12:22.400 --> 00:12:44.270 Jon Hyman: Yeah, So the employment law issues, I mean, employment issues are employment law issues by and large. But I think the two that you mentioned, or the two that we see a lot of in the industry. It's a lot of wage, and our issues um, particularly um surrounding tip employees in the in the hospitality space. And then just general kind of overtime issues um, and then

00:12:44.280 --> 00:13:04.129 Jon Hyman: um on top of that. Um! Ah, harassment kind of the me, too. Movement, and there's a huge Dei push right now in the beer world, and so that is also a tremendously hot issue. Um! And then there are also, I mean, alcohol being highly regulated within the States. There are

00:13:04.140 --> 00:13:13.909 Jon Hyman: um ah myriad regulatory issues that have to be addressed as well kind of outside the employment of the world, so it's it's it's really it's a fascinating space to play in.

00:13:13.920 --> 00:13:15.080 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Yeah,

00:13:15.090 --> 00:13:45.069 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Yeah, I know for sure. I can imagine. I mean, I think, all this necessity, including our topic for tonight regarding employers rights to moderate employees. Now we're actually about a minute. Wait for our first commercial right? I think it might make sense to take it a little early now, so that when we come back I can ask you the next question. We can talk about um. Just so we we don't legal rights employees have to monitor their employees and what to look out for. So we'll be back. Folks take a short break a minute early. Um! I'll just say like listening to. I'm a law today. I'm your host, Derek.

00:13:45.080 --> 00:14:04.880 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: However, employment Well, attorney my guest tonight of all the memorable attorney, John Hyman, and when we come back we're going to talk about this issue of, are we? Despite somebody's watching, But you know what employers can monitor. Um what kind of notice they're required to give to their employees. And what are some of the laws say about this? So stay, tuned we'll be right back.

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00:16:18.830 --> 00:16:45.889 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Welcome back to employment Law today. Once again i'm your host, Aaron sovereign, and here tonight, with our cast of employment Law attorney, John Lyman, from the established Christine Wickens, Hers, or Panda, and our topic again tonight, but basically about employers rights to monitor their employees. Social media insight, usage what the law requires. Notice and the scope of such monitoring

00:16:45.900 --> 00:16:47.430 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: and all laws come into play. So

00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:50.589 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: so I guess my first question in that regard, John, is,

00:16:50.600 --> 00:17:07.190 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Let's talk about this um elaborate, you know, eliminating for for our audience tonight. Rather, what legal right, if any, does an employer have to monitor their employees, computer and Internet activity at work and on their conditions that the employer must meet, or the limitations on the scope of surveillance.

00:17:08.260 --> 00:17:25.349 Jon Hyman: It's a pretty broad-based right that employers have um. It's their network. It's their equipment if i'm sitting at my desk in my office, or i'm um on a mobile device on my employer's network, or even a mobile device owned by my employer, even if i'm off their network. I mean It's there.

00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:43.020 Jon Hyman: It's their facilities, it's their property. So they're right to monitor the traffic that goes through those you know, through the Internet onto those devices or otherwise. Ah is is pretty broad. Some States have

00:17:43.030 --> 00:18:04.780 Jon Hyman: kind of stepped in to regulate um have required at least notice um by the employer Californian, which is its whole own kind of world unemployment law. It's almost too early. It was, but I mean it's it's the left coast for a reason so. But so there are some states that are in the minority that require kind of notice by the employer; and

00:18:04.850 --> 00:18:27.230 Jon Hyman: if i'm drafting a handbook or a policy for an employer. I mean. I'm going to put notice in there, anyway, because I think it just makes sense for employers and employees to be on the same page in terms of kind of what's what's being modern, and what's not, but by and large that notice is required, and the employer can kind of do what at once, with its own, with its own equipment.

00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:28.320 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Hmm.

00:18:28.330 --> 00:18:58.239 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Yeah, You know you're right, I mean. And there are Federal laws like I know that you know. Talk about. I think It's Ecba and and acronym about electronic ah moderate surveillance that goes back to the ninety S. And talking about. If an employer has legitimate reason to monitor their employees computers, if they can do so. But to your point you're right. It's a broad, just ownership ad right. It's the advert that the employer owns the equipment owns the computers, the phones um, you know, on the server. And so they have a right to see what's being traffic, what's going on.

00:18:58.250 --> 00:19:10.930 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Yeah, I agree with you about that one hundred percent, John. It's definitely that. And I also noticed that a lot of the laws coming out in different States, like in New York, and for months, and I believe it's Connecticut as well of different states are passing laws

00:19:10.940 --> 00:19:39.309 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: wherein you have to think of notice. The employees, you know, acknowledging. Hey, we're going to be mine to do employees. You have to give them it, and that's why I think it's smart like you do it in the same as well. When we draft employee handbooks for our um. Our, you know clients to make sure that it has some kind of notification. And um for the existing employees. Make sure that the notice is conspicuously posted, you know, in a place in the workplace, and if it's a remote workforce, then they have to put up some raw tests to pick, whether it's an email blast,

00:19:39.320 --> 00:20:07.429 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: et cetera. But but you're right that a lot of them. And I mentioned this question because I asked question, there's a lot of employees, I think um under the impression that that the employer's modern stamps now violates some kind of a privacy right? And the thing is, it's if the government and whether the employers are private, venting not a government actor, and you know they can monitor and survey what you do, and it's not that they need to kind of search for it, you know, to even if you're doing it from a computer in your home.

00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:15.939 Jon Hyman: No, I I know I know of a business was not a client of mine, because I would have never counseled that they do this. But the

00:20:15.950 --> 00:20:45.580 Jon Hyman: president of the company sat in his office all day long, and he had a banks of monitors, and he would watch server logs to see who was on what website during the work day. And he would watch video cameras to see kind of who was going to the bathroom when and how long employees were taking breaks, and it was a really bizarre um awful. I I can't imagine an awful place to work when you're under that having when you're under that heavy surveillance, but also perfectly legal right. There's nothing wrong with that on the employer standpoint. I wouldn't recommend it as an Hr. Practice,

00:20:45.590 --> 00:21:04.800 Jon Hyman: but but there's nothing. There's nothing illegal about the practice, but I do think you're right. I think that there is a tremendous misconception around privacy rights that employees have more accurately. Don't have in the workplace, because they just don't

00:21:04.810 --> 00:21:21.720 Jon Hyman: have a lot of them. When you're working for an employer you're on their time. You're using their equipment. Your time as an employee belongs to the employer, and the employer has a a legitimate, reasonable

00:21:21.730 --> 00:21:38.129 Jon Hyman: Ah! Business reason to make sure that when they're paying you they're getting the benefit of what they're paying you for, and that means you're That means you're working. And so that means then this so that could often mean Ah, the the monitoring and the lack of privacy that goes along with it

00:21:38.440 --> 00:22:02.169 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Right? I think it's very true, John. Yes, and I think that one thing you mentioned. Um. It struck me in the story that we did about the company heard of, and how it's what the person did that the employer did there, monitoring number one, you know, twenty, four, seven, or rather all day Work um to the extreme. It's legal, but not necessarily advisable, and that's something. I think we maybe perhaps you and I see the funnel that

00:22:02.180 --> 00:22:19.969 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: maybe something might be um legally permissible that an employer won't get in trouble with you, but does not make it a best practice, and it might not be necessarily recommended because of how it affects employing brow because of um. Even the paranoia can foster and fester into the for the owner themselves. You know

00:22:19.980 --> 00:22:32.580 Jon Hyman: It's interesting and legal. Yeah, legal is one thing, and you might not get sued for it. But if you're constantly of a constant revolving door of employees because they get fed up with your lousy H. Our practices, and how you're treating them doesn't do your business very good. So

00:22:32.590 --> 00:22:36.600 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: right. And some of those that might be, you know, involved in the door might

00:22:36.610 --> 00:23:06.600 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: become disrespectful to believe that they have another reason why they were maybe fired, or maybe, that, given promotion, they might assign it to some protected class trade which may or may not be true, or maybe being partially true in terms of list of bias, but you know it's something you don't want to deal with is important, and I think it's just the same thing when I have ah clients, you know, John, or business owners, and some of them will ask me what is the minimum amount of time off the gray lease I have to give my employees and understand why I ask them. Well, okay, okay, New York City

00:23:06.610 --> 00:23:32.389 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: to find these basic weave and how they calculated. Um, You know a certain timeline for fraternity and stuff. But but they say, what's the minimum? And i'll explain to them and say, look, you can do this isn't this, and so you will get into trouble. You won't get fined at problems of flavor Um or New York City. But it might not be advisable, because if your employees are getting the grammar of feeling burned out, and they're not getting enough time off to care for themselves. It'll show it more

00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:42.589 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: so. I think it's interesting to note that just because an employer can monitor everything they might want to big and cheese when and how they apply monitoring to their employees.

00:23:42.600 --> 00:23:58.379 Jon Hyman: Yeah, I mean, I think, especially now when I mean the I think the the forty hour work week is is dead. I think it's been dead for a while I think we expect a lot of our employees day in and day out. We work employees work.

00:23:58.430 --> 00:24:10.219 Jon Hyman: Certainly I mean not nine to five. They might. You know who they're working, you know, in the morning, in the evening, on the couch at home, whatever. If an employee wants to

00:24:10.510 --> 00:24:24.180 Jon Hyman: spend five minutes during the work day to go buy something on Amazon, or wants to go check the box score from the game last night, or go see what's going on on Cnn or Facebook, or whatever I don't as as an employer like. I don't care

00:24:24.190 --> 00:24:53.809 Jon Hyman: to me that's not an issue, if they're otherwise performing and getting the job done, and so it only becomes an issue when it becomes an issue. When someone is habitually not doing their work, because they're because they're always not doing their work. They're doing something else. Personal and non-work related on work, time. That's a performance issue when you treat it like you Would any other performance issue, and I think employers get hung up on. Well, this is, you know, this is my you know, my office, my computer, my whatever, and nothing

00:24:53.820 --> 00:25:09.329 Jon Hyman: personnel will pass through this Internet pipe, and I don't think it recognizes appropriately, recognizes the reality of the workplace today, and I don't think it it gives appropriate credit to employees for just how much of their time they give to employers.

00:25:09.340 --> 00:25:39.310 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Right, you know I mentioned it two point two, because you and I are, although represented where you're not Um, the enemy of the employee I haven't trying to convey that point to many of my clients. A lot of my clients recognize that that you know the employee is not the competition, the enemy. They're not want to be mistrusted unless they haven't to prove that they are not trustworthy, based on their performance or discount, or what have you? But um, I think you're right that you know, like employees, give a lot to their companies very often, and if they're not using that time,

00:25:39.320 --> 00:26:03.639 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: so be it. I think also what's challenging is that now, with the work from home, the revolution of people or change. A lot of employees might still be using an employer-issue laptop. Maybe logging into an employer's system, but from their bedroom you know the couch, and so they might mistakenly believe that they have an extra level

00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:33.869 Jon Hyman: of privacy from being modern. And the truth is, they can be modern in terms of the email usage. Still, right, There's social media, you know, from their website. They visit um, probably log on now, of course. Ah, an employer might be able to monitor one's workplace, but with cameras, and I think it might be in this bridge too far to somebody in your home. If you're doing that, don't don't don't sell employer, creativity, short employers are actually doing that. So I've heard this, too, and I kind of wonder what to happen with that,

00:26:33.880 --> 00:27:03.819 Jon Hyman: because you know. Let's say, the model to the home and people in their brain are doing something like there are some privacy concerns in the employees home and the other issue that I could see coming up is in the way that some companies are doing. This is not having a live camera on all the time,

00:27:03.830 --> 00:27:15.939 Jon Hyman: but they have. They're activating the camera on the computer to take a snapshot every five minutes or ten minutes to confirm that the employee is like actually at their computer working. And

00:27:15.950 --> 00:27:34.459 Jon Hyman: and I've heard of companies that are, for example, you know, if they have it set to take a picture every six minutes. If they take the picture and the employees not at the computer. They're not paying the employee for that six minute block of time which raises to me serious wage and hour concerns, because the employee could be

00:27:34.470 --> 00:27:51.790 Jon Hyman: um up getting a document from the printer in her office. They could be sitting on the couch reading something they printed. It could be going to the bathroom, which we all do during the work day, and you don't get done. Don't get docked for it. But now you're docking an employee, because the camera says, Oh, you're not working, which is a a massive

00:27:51.800 --> 00:28:07.069 Jon Hyman: wage in our red flag, and and I think if we're going to see litigation around the use of um webcams and other surveillance kind of live surveillance technology um to monitor what employees are doing in the home. I think we're going to see it around wage and our issues

00:28:07.550 --> 00:28:37.529 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: one hundred percent, John. I really i'm hardly there, and I think it's it's it's it's almost like a It's just a level of perhaps overview hypervigilance that the employer and the backfire, because, as you pointed out, somebody give you away from the computer, and they could be, you know, standing in their kitchen to read while having a cup of coffee they can be looking at, and they can be taking a phone call um for the client, and maybe wanting to get away from you know the noisy Ah, the background noise outside the window or the dog. So all good stuff, you know all the ones that I think we can come back.

00:28:37.540 --> 00:28:58.490 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: That's that topic we're actually believe or not at our next commercial break. So folks as you can tell we are here. I deployment a lot today, my guest, this evening. I'm planning a lot of training as well. When we come up we'll talk more about, You know. This sort of the scope of notice is scope and monitoring.

00:28:58.500 --> 00:29:04.200 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: And then just what happens, let's say, when we drift into modern social media posts.

00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:07.549 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Working conditions. So stick around. We'll be right back,

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00:31:07.460 --> 00:31:37.450 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Welcome back to employment logs today. Once again i'm your host here at Sovereign, and our topic tonight with John Hyman, our guest. We're talking about um. I always feel like somebody's watching me, and I've been arrested a monitoring of employees and social media and Chinese. And you know, John, I think, raised some good points to everybody about companies like what technology might allow one to do in terms of their taking snapshots of someone's computer when they're working at home, but being careful with how it interprets that because if you interpret it,

00:31:37.460 --> 00:32:06.270 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: it's not working with document pay, and they are working it where they're simply, you know, Going to the bathroom. Um, there can be a way to I I I've been seeing a lot more wage in our issues coming to life with clients in terms of like them to work from home. You know they they'll have someone working a forty hour week, but they'll have hourly workers. We're tired over time under the Nra, as we both know, and certain types of Jobs positions. They're not exams right, and they'll

00:32:06.280 --> 00:32:33.679 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: having them working, and they'll log up to those ten dollars emails or text after hours. You know, I was saying, you know, Hey, Hey, Tom? Um, what i'm listed we ever get that, you know, email back and you check and see. And then Thomas to go through his emails and say, Yeah, I said, Susan, you know the document, hey? What does that happen to say? I mean you get to write a response, or or take a call or a text, I think, in order to get that when you're an email and affecting an employer and seeking responses off hours, that's time that has to be counted

00:32:33.690 --> 00:32:43.590 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: towards work, even if they're home, and that's whether they come into the office, and they're home after work, or they're working on employees. So we are seeing. I think, those lines getting blurred, and you see that as well.

00:32:43.600 --> 00:33:03.200 Jon Hyman: Yeah. And it's not just time that has to be counted. But it's time that's actually like time stamped like from an from an evidentiary standpoint, where, like you and I defend an off the clock case where an employee says you know I was working, you know X number of minutes or hours of over time, kind of after I clock

00:33:03.210 --> 00:33:30.799 Jon Hyman: out or off the clock. You often get to the you know, he said, she said, or from the employer standpoint, you know, but prove a negative. Prove the employee wasn't working when they say they were the employee you were working when you say you were or whatever. But when you have emails, text messages, slack messages, whatever you have, like a nice digital trail, showing exactly kind of when the messages were sent and received, and when they were responded to. And you're almost

00:33:30.810 --> 00:33:38.839 Jon Hyman: you're almost making the employees case for them by asking them to respond to those messages, you know, quote unquote off the clock.

00:33:39.070 --> 00:34:09.009 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Yeah, very true, right. And I think that you know in areas that are not. Let's say construction when the person says, Oh, I worked at the instruction site, you know, for ninety hours a week who I didn't, and then you go Well, let's see record show, and then you can look at, you know, when was a site that's like close. Or was there a three day snowstorm in the person? And they were in the site working, and you look back because he was two kids, but that often there you actually rely on witnesses and another, and challenge people with here. I think you're right. That employs the the employer rather, if you

00:34:09.020 --> 00:34:35.499 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: that that documents and trail against themselves, it can be used against them. So you know, and it all kind of. I think it's kind of a general thing about, you know privacy and surveillance monitoring because these are issues that we're finding now more and more with the evidence of technology, you know. I mean, I'm sure employers always were often who were monitoring their employees a long time ago. But there was a different level of what you saw your employees doing

00:34:35.510 --> 00:35:03.729 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: in you know one thousand nine hundred and ninety-three, then in two thousand and twenty, So I think you know we need to look at like going back as we talked about earlier. Keep in mind employees that your employer can monitor you the magic. If you notice that they're monitoring you and employers, Remember, if you're on a company, listen to the show tonight. If you Haven't updated your policy that you're in search. Some of those States in New York, Connecticut, Vermont, Um. A couple of others. I can't remember right now. I think it's Oregon. I've been in Washington which makes sense,

00:35:03.740 --> 00:35:27.039 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: possibly California, where, if you have to have notice to your employees, then you don't tell when you're monitoring them. And then the Attorney General for that they can find you, you know it can be upwards of five hundred dollars or personal offense, three thousand per second and third, and so on. So um! But I think you know it all kind of brings out the issues of like employees what they do on their spare time, and how employers

00:35:27.050 --> 00:35:28.140 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: respond.

00:35:28.240 --> 00:35:30.459 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: You know it's all kind of tied together, I think

00:35:31.010 --> 00:35:49.190 Jon Hyman: I think it comes down to trust to me. Yeah, you know, in in in in my to me like if a client comes to me and says, We want to start reviewing. You know we want to start reviewing server logs. For example, we we don't. We think our employees are spending too much time on,

00:35:49.200 --> 00:36:05.930 Jon Hyman: you know Facebook during the work day. So we're going to start reviewing server logs. We're going to have. You know it, people, or you know, pour through server logs every day, or we're going to set up a list of blacklisted websites that are blocked or whatever companies choose to do. Yeah, I mean to me

00:36:05.940 --> 00:36:25.010 Jon Hyman: it comes down to trust, and if you don't trust your employees to get their job done during the work day, or to get their job done. Period like, What are you paying them for in the what are you paying them for in the first place. And so I think, if you, as an employer, get to the point where you feel the need to monitor or surveill

00:36:25.080 --> 00:36:40.579 Jon Hyman: your employees Um, twenty, four, seven, or twenty, you know, around the clock while they're on the clock right? I think you need to take a step back and ask yourself what? What? What's broken in our workplace, that I don't trust my employees to work

00:36:40.590 --> 00:36:57.709 Jon Hyman: period. And is there a way to? Because monitoring them is not going to fix the trust issue. If anything is going to bring more distrust. So what can we, as a company do to help rebuild the trust that we lost that got us here in the first place. That's that's the way I look at it.

00:37:03.300 --> 00:37:26.429 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: So much of what we do, as some point of lawyers for companies. Sure we defend them in court and mediations, arbitrations, and showing of them are compliance, but like to go past. You know what they're the laws that they can and can't do, but also like, wants to know a best practice and one other dynamic surplus what issues are underlying. Because you're right if you need to block your employees physically

00:37:26.440 --> 00:37:32.290 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: to Facebook, you know, I think, has textbooks come in and sit up all those things to make them get their work done.

00:37:32.300 --> 00:37:41.390 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Is it that the working is so unchallenging, or I'm. Rewarding, you know. Is it paid so well that they're morale shocking? And they're overusing Facebook, are you not vetting, probably,

00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:56.230 Jon Hyman: or are you just having unrealistic standards about? You know what people should do like right with you and your employees and robots that should come in and be literally working from, you know, say, nine to five, thirty man, and and how far and how far are you going to go right?

00:37:56.240 --> 00:38:26.029 Jon Hyman: Gonna If you're gonna block you're gonna set up your server so that it like Blocks Blacklist Facebook. So an employee can't get to Facebook during the work day. If I really want to check my Facebook during the work day, i'm gonna pull this out of my pocket. No, i'm going to turn off the wife. I go on to my cellular network, and i'm going to do it off your network, anyway. So how far do you go, and you require employees to like, put their put their cell phone in a lock box or a locker, or leave it in their car, and not, you know, and not carry it on their person

00:38:26.040 --> 00:38:45.329 Jon Hyman: when they come into the I mean, how far do you go to to ensure that your employees are not going to be, you know, doing non-work related things during the work day under You're going to and doing more more harm than good, by really damaging morale with your employees. By doing that

00:38:45.500 --> 00:38:59.890 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: right you might get a little extra work from that person, or maybe maybe not. But maybe so. They realized that they could end up leaving, or they're afraid of the silent quitting, or they just, you know, kind of like phoned it into the bare minimum, and they have to do.

00:38:59.900 --> 00:39:16.590 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: I think that was elderly, covered, and elevated in one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine in the movie office space, where you know. But I don't see this the comedy by the office, and it's like the guy, and he has all the different consultants joining on, and then they ask him about his work that he says I need you for bosses, and they're all on my back, and my coffee is, of course,

00:39:16.600 --> 00:39:44.960 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: you know. And then, after all, I mean Tbr supports. And I mean question, is that all that does Is this young all that? It's pretty. It just makes you want to do that very bare minimum to not get fired. And so I think you know, we can extrad way back a fast over twenty, three years. Um! And Now we're in different place, right? We've got employees like who's talked about their experiences at for a company on glass store, you know, on on science, and let me bring you to another question like it is like a secondary issue,

00:39:44.970 --> 00:40:02.529 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: but it's less about monitoring more about what an employer themselves with certain information. So i'm talking about in situations, John, where, let's say, employees are on social media, and maybe their bosses, or their middle management, or Facebook friends, or that person or instagram. What have you? Let's say, Facebook First,

00:40:02.540 --> 00:40:11.369 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: this, this, this conversation, and the program, and the employees posting about how much the workplace like. It's terrible, and it's awful, and maybe they

00:40:11.470 --> 00:40:23.500 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: throw in a few twist installs are out there. You don't want their boss. Maybe they talk about how it's not safe, or we're asked to work beyond bathrooms. It's ridiculous, and this place

00:40:23.510 --> 00:40:41.970 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: I hate it sucks um. Some employers might see that because people are more connected on Facebook. Maybe another employee brings their attention, and maybe they decide they want to fire that person, you know, for being this will. I mean, if you're a type of employer. It's going to monitor your people or any step, maybe you. So the question becomes, You know, what

00:40:41.980 --> 00:40:56.790 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: might an employer want to be careful about, let's say, when responding to what they see, like a social media post or employee that might contain some expression of like anger, the workplace, but also some some conditions of work they're concerned about.

00:40:56.800 --> 00:40:58.290 Jon Hyman: Yeah. So

00:40:58.540 --> 00:41:18.659 Jon Hyman: the issue raised is one of protective concerted activity under Section seven of the National Labor Relations act employees have the right, under the National Labor Relations Act, whether they are union or non-union, to talk between them among themselves, about wages hours in terms of conditions of employment. So if employees are going online

00:41:18.670 --> 00:41:28.699 Jon Hyman: to vent about work and other employees see it can see it, have the potential to see it interact with the content you are now in.

00:41:28.710 --> 00:41:48.270 Jon Hyman: Protect a concerted activity Land! And you are taking a You are taking a risk as an employer of um buying yourself an unfairly labor practice charge with the National Labor Relations Board. If you retaliate against an employee or something, the employee wrote online about work

00:41:48.750 --> 00:42:18.079 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Right? Absolutely true, you know. Let's say you're volunteering your employees, and you see what they're posted. And you look, and you see that they you know we're about the company being terrific or not, like people organize, or um, if they're talking about working conditions or or a call to action, you know we show up with the job or protest. This um that is, the law protects that, as John pointed out on the National Commission that it's not to be viewed simply, as you know it's coordination or lack of appreciation. Well, who

00:42:18.090 --> 00:42:28.100 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: this person, anyway? We're going to fire them. So you have to be careful that that can't be the round to terminate an employee. Now, of course, if they happen to be a terrible employee, and then with their work

00:42:28.190 --> 00:42:46.839 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: that's separate issue. But then the problem that comes from a view of optics right perspective of, you know. If you fire them three days after that post, and you say No, no, it's because they're always slow at their work and doing a poor job. Does it look like That's a pretext for retaliation. So that's an issue. I think you know, for companies to look at as well.

00:42:47.530 --> 00:43:01.209 Jon Hyman: Yeah, I mean It's It's also, I think, the other the other one of the other points I think, to make here is that you know Facebook, Twitter. Whatever have social media has become the the twenty,

00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:08.119 Jon Hyman: the twenty first century equivalent of the water. Cooler and employees are

00:43:08.130 --> 00:43:28.110 Jon Hyman: the conversations they used to have around the water cooler are now oftentimes having online, but it also presents a really nice opportunity for employers and employers to look at it as such, because often, you know, employees are talking around the water cooler. You might not know what the substance of the conversations are what their grapes are, and they're doing it publicly online.

00:43:28.120 --> 00:43:39.220 Jon Hyman: You very well made an opportunity to see that. And if you're seeing what employees gripes are, it gives you an opportunity to fix it, whether they're bringing those to your attention or not. I think too often

00:43:39.230 --> 00:43:58.069 Jon Hyman: we look at like you know these, you know, ungrateful employees, and they don't know how good they have it, and you know we don't need malcontents here, and blah blah blah blah blah instead of using that as an opportunity to maybe understand why employees are disgruntled, and maybe

00:43:58.080 --> 00:44:08.359 Jon Hyman: not not. Every not every not every issue, right to needs to be fixed, but some do, and some should be, and and I think employers should take those conversations as as an opportunity to do so.

00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:38.430 Jon Hyman: John, I think you and I are very similar type of memories. You, I think you know there's um I I tell my God, same same type of advice, you know, if you're seeing these in place, we're an opportunity to look into them, and if you know there's an expression right. If one person calls to a horse, you might look at them. Funny Two people say, you know, if you was for a minute we'll check this out for mirror. Three people say, you know, by a saddle. You know that a lot of the boys are saying the same thing. Um, you know one opportunity to not for mistaken personally,

00:44:38.440 --> 00:45:08.180 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: even if the employee's post might have some granting a raining about the boss, you know. I've seen some cases out there where employers got insulted like the manual, and say, in Boston were being salted in the context of the post, which also mentioned kind of activities. So you know, they said, this you know so be the so- and so you know this might be like, you know. Ah, Charlie, you know it's not giving us a break. He's like you know fat head whatever. And then, and then they go on to list all these flavors. And the question was, Well, if you wouldn't have fired Charlie, for just you know the same,

00:45:08.190 --> 00:45:37.630 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: or that the employer we're just saying that. But in and of itself it's not a fireable offense of your address of discipline, policies, and detective activity is the real reason why you fired him. He he's complaining about working conditions. Um, that's to be against the Nra. So I think you know what's the legal one like, buy you a a lawsuit, but also how does an employer Can you look at this as like you know? Are we on the same team, you know, we being the employer employee, and if not,

00:45:37.640 --> 00:45:39.830 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: how do you get on the same team?

00:45:39.840 --> 00:46:00.920 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: So I know we're in the next commercial rate, which is amazing on time. And when we come back I'm going to talk a little bit with John More about this issue, but also about his cup is first right, you know, like what are some of the unique approaches that you? How do they impose their clients in situations? So for now folks stay tuned to employment law today. Right here i'm talking to Nyc.

00:46:00.930 --> 00:46:02.490 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: John and i'll be right back

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00:48:01.790 --> 00:48:05.890 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Welcome back, folks to employment law Today i'm your host, Eric Sovereign.

00:48:05.900 --> 00:48:18.979 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: I'm here today with fellow employment, Law Attorney John Hyman. Ah! From the friend Wickens Fraser Tanza, as I mentioned before, Jonathan, the shareholder and director of the firmer. He is also chair of the firm's employment and legal practice

00:48:18.990 --> 00:48:25.990 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: and co-chair of its craft beer practice group. So you know, once again, John, really great discussion. So far a great time on the show this evening.

00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:28.629 Jon Hyman: Yeah, it's been so good to be here. I really appreciate it.

00:48:28.640 --> 00:48:56.870 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Yeah, you know, we've got a ten minutes left or so. We don't. But you know we've got time for another question or so. Um, I think it's just the theme i'm getting from. This is that we're explaining to people what the employer is allowed to do. Why, legally, what they're not allowed to do, what they might be limited doing in terms of, not by notice by a lot of, but also what are some of the best common sense practices, you know, like what makes the workplace? Um a better place to be, and that's kind of, maybe to another question to you, John, about You know your

00:48:56.880 --> 00:49:07.159 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: I feel like we're getting a bit of your philosophy. As I mentioned to you, I share a lot of your philosophy. What I'm hearing in terms of how I counsel my clients business owners and employers,

00:49:07.240 --> 00:49:24.059 Jon Hyman: so wondering, like what are some unique approaches that you and Wiggins or Japan to take in, providing, you know employment services for your clients business owners in Ohio, and kind of different from other Midwestern law firms that do what you do. Yeah, I think I mean a couple of things.

00:49:24.070 --> 00:49:36.729 Jon Hyman: Um, being being a smaller firm, I think it it allows us, I think, to get to know. I think our clients and their businesses a little more intimately, I think, being a smaller firm, it lets us also be,

00:49:36.740 --> 00:49:51.969 Jon Hyman: make a little more flexible and a little more nimble in some of the things we can offer to our clients. So, for example, we're in the process of putting together and getting ready to roll out some subscription law services for businesses

00:49:52.110 --> 00:50:15.619 Jon Hyman: that that will kind of tiered services where businesses will have the opportunity to pay a monthly fee depending on the type of service. You know how deep they want the the subscription to run which will put an employment lawyer essentially um on retainer and on call for them for a variety of services from, you know, handbooks and investigations to policies, to kind of the day to day

00:50:15.630 --> 00:50:23.129 Jon Hyman: counseling calls that we you know that we that we do every day for businesses. So things like that that allow us to

00:50:23.430 --> 00:50:33.650 Jon Hyman: have a little more, whether whether you call it flexibility or creativity, or kind of nimbleness in

00:50:33.690 --> 00:50:39.789 Jon Hyman: kind of thinking, in different ways to to serve and service our clients.

00:50:40.260 --> 00:50:42.330 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Yes,

00:50:48.030 --> 00:51:07.489 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: personal touch, and then intimacy with the client. We know that, like you're a small firm. You're in touch with all their needs. You're You're following what they've been doing for the last few years. Um, that's I think it's always a benefit compared to like my super giant firm that you know, maybe has like a hundred clients, and maybe it's using track or what the person or the employer is doing.

00:51:07.500 --> 00:51:27.030 Jon Hyman: Yeah. And then, you know, I mean, just speaking from a from a personal standpoint. I know when um you know I talk to clients. One of the things what the the feedback I get from clients on on me is, you know, John, we like working with you because you

00:51:27.040 --> 00:51:28.880 Jon Hyman: you don't just say,

00:51:28.890 --> 00:51:58.870 Jon Hyman: well, you can do what you can do. Be you can do. See, these are your these are your legal options, or what you can do within the boundary options, that within the bounds of the law that may or may not get you sued, but if you do, you give you a better chance prevailing. But you'll ask you actually tell us like, if you were in our shoes. This is what you would do. This is like the preferred course of action. You're not giving us options. You're not saying, you know this is what the law allows you to do. You say you? You know this is we. This is what my clients tell me. You know we call you. We rely on you.

00:51:59.950 --> 00:52:04.969 Jon Hyman: I mean, you know the law, but you also are very

00:52:04.990 --> 00:52:16.829 Jon Hyman: proactive in telling us how you would respond if the roles, if you know, if you were sitting in the chair as the business owner or the Hr Executive making the decision, and I think

00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:20.360 Jon Hyman: my clients appreciate.

00:52:20.820 --> 00:52:38.990 Jon Hyman: Ah, i'm willing to stick my neck out a little bit, although not, I mean, although not not really. But I I think they perceive me as sticking my neck out a little bit, and actually, you know, helping them make make the decision rather than just giving them options. And then, you know you're on your own. You do what you think is the right thing to do for your business.

00:52:39.690 --> 00:52:53.719 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: I mean, I think that's very important, I think you know, because a lot of the attorneys will sort of go through the memory of options and the pros and cons and illegal liabilities; but you know, without guiding the the employer or the client through.

00:53:04.300 --> 00:53:22.160 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: Some might ask. Well, you know, if your son or daughter would have this procedure, would you go through it? Or if your sister would be the surgery, would you? And you know when they say Yes, Um, you know it goes a long way. I remember my wife's pregnant. She needed a certain medication from for nausea, and I had a question. We need a question, and this doctor said, You know

00:53:22.170 --> 00:53:28.689 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: I took dozen with my when I was hired. My two children, right, you know. So this is the obi-jo antex on It's this: so

00:53:28.700 --> 00:53:50.649 Jon Hyman: right? Um, and then you know the thing is definitely something you want to hear, you know, from a trusted advisor. But you know, what would you do in the situation? Um, yeah, You know, I think there are a couple of other ways that you might distinguish yourselves like I know you mentioned. Obviously, You've got this possible different modality, One of them There's a traditional retainer, and you know, a monthly type of arrangement. But

00:53:50.660 --> 00:54:06.450 Jon Hyman: um! I'll use the example. Janine, more towards like V. Ner, and films are sitting, like all trans dispute resolution, and as well as litigation, or more like we're the aggressive litigators, and that's our um it it it it. It it honestly really depends on the client I mean we have.

00:54:06.500 --> 00:54:15.450 Jon Hyman: We have. What I would say is one of the best trial litigation practices in Northeast, Ohio. That, I think, objectively speaking,

00:54:15.460 --> 00:54:29.420 Jon Hyman: I would say, that's and i'm obviously biased. But ah! So it's hard. It's hard to be objective, but i'm looking at it on the inside. But, objectively speaking, I think we we have one of the best

00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:37.889 Jon Hyman: trial litigation practices in Northeast Ohio, but but it really depends on the client. I mean, some cases. Are you

00:54:37.900 --> 00:55:07.150 Jon Hyman: very well suited for mediation. Um, and some are, and I think it's, and I think from an adr standpoint I think it's unfair to pigeonholy case, or say we're going to mediate this case we're going to. We're going to see if we can resolve this thing early, because not not every case is suitable to an early resolution. But you got to beat the heck out of someone in a deposition for seven hours in order to,

00:55:07.160 --> 00:55:18.449 Jon Hyman: or maybe your client needs their head bashed in the deposition for seven hours before they get their mind around. Oh, this might not go Well, if we got a

00:55:18.460 --> 00:55:31.090 Jon Hyman: emotions, or take this to trial, and maybe, you know, and maybe maybe resolution makes the most sense. So I like to think of myself more as a business partner with my clients. One of the ways I partner with my clients is by

00:55:31.100 --> 00:55:44.459 Jon Hyman: helping them. Focus. Right? Is mediation appropriate? Is um, you know, or is this the kind of case where um you know, settlement's not really a possibility. And we're gonna We're gonna ramp this thing up and get ready to try

00:55:45.080 --> 00:55:59.190 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: that topic, John. Well, I feel like I can talk about that with you for ever. But we have two minutes up to the on the show, so why don't you take a minute or so? Just don't tell our guests our audience about like how they contact you with your your emotions, your blog so is yours.

00:55:59.200 --> 00:56:07.579 Jon Hyman: Yeah, i'm not hard to find. You can literally because I don't. We talked about social media, and I don't hide on social media. So i'm active on

00:56:07.590 --> 00:56:36.879 Jon Hyman: linkedin i'm active on Twitter. Um! Ah, I have the blog Ohio employer, lawblock, dot com. It's just had its fifteenth anniversary a few months ago. There are little. It is literally an encyclopedia of employment law. If you need an employment, one question and it's not in the you can't find it in the search box at Ohio and Player Welllock, dot com It just it doesn't exist. Um! But you could literally Google, like John Hyman, employment lawyer um, and you will find me. I don't hide

00:56:36.930 --> 00:56:58.909 Jon Hyman: Winkens law, dot com as the firm Ohio beer lawyers dot com. We'll take you to our take you to our craft, beer practice um, and Jonathan Hyman on Linkedin, cause some doctor in New Jersey had John Hyman before me and um and John Hyman Ah, no h on Twitter. But again I I don't hide. I'm. Ah, really really easy to find,

00:56:59.350 --> 00:57:27.690 Eric Sarver, Esq. - Employment Law Today: John. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. This has been a great show great topic and everything we take perspective. I always love talking with my lawyers. Um! I'll just say in the last thirty seconds, Folks, if you like the show. Tell your friends or your colleagues or your clients I you have found me. It's tuned in every Tuesday night by me on six Pm Eastern stand in time right here in time, right at Yc. Stay tuned some great programming to follow, and once again I want to thank you so much for joining us, and I want to wish you everyone out there a wonderful night. Thank you. Thank you. Once again.

00:57:27.700 --> 00:57:30.239 Jon Hyman: Thanks, Eric. Yeah, Great,

00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:34.259 i'm not.

00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:47.350 You are listening to.

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