Employment Law Today

Tuesday, July 12, 2022
Facebook Live Video from 2022/07/12 - The 4-Day Work Week: Increasing Employee Productivity

Facebook Live Video from 2022/07/12 - The 4-Day Work Week: Increasing Employee Productivity


2022/07/12 - The 4-Day Work Week: Increasing Employee Productivity

[NEW EPISODE] The 4-Day Work Week: Increasing Employee Productivity

WHAT WILL THE AUDIENCE LEARN? Our audience will learn the benefits of implementing a 4-day work week for their employees, and will further learn how to maximize employee productivity while reducing hours per week.

EPISODE SUMMARY: The Covid-19 pandemic brought a renewed focus on employees' work/ life balance and wellness. Advances in technology - some expedited by Zoom and the remote workplace - have opened up new means of working effectively and efficiently. Consequently, many companies across the globe are exploring a 4-day work week for their employees.

How can employers maintain - or even improve - their employees' productivity and output when their working hours are cut by 20%? What steps can you, the employer or business owner, take to properly implement a 4-day work week for your workers? What are the pros and cons?

Join me and my special guest, Joe O'Connor, activist, advocate, and Chief Executive Officer at 4 Day Week Global, for a discussion of this newly evolving trend in the workforce, right here on Employment Law Today!

Tune in for this informative conversation at or watch the Facebook Livestream by Clicking Here.

Show Notes

Segment 1

Eric introduces his guest Joe O’Connor, CEO at 4 Day Week Global. He breaks down the focus of today’s episode, which deals with a 4- day work week and increasing employees’ productivity. Eric asks Joe what drew him to 4-Day Week Global; what was his motivation? Eric asks Joe if there was anything in his formative years that motivated him to advocate for worker’s rights. Joe was always involved in the campaign industry while living in Ireland. In 2018, Joe organized a conference that dealt with the future of working time. In 2019, Joe was involved with forming the 4-day week Ireland group. Joe is looking to develop something similar for his US campaign. Joe explains what intentionally led him down the path to advocate for workers’ rights.

Segment 2

Eric and Joe discuss the pandemic and how it forced us to work remotely. Joe shares his experience with clients and their methods of working. Eric and Joe discuss why a 4-day workweek benefits the employer and employee. Eric comments that society is accustomed to a 5-day workweek, but there are viable reasons to cross over to a 4-day work week. Joe points out how virtual communication has become accessible for the workforce, yet we still see employees on a 5-day work week schedule. Eric and Joe discuss essential time management and how it can benefit working methods and expedite the process. Joe talks about structuring a meeting and assuring there is a focused agenda. One of the ways we can minimize the workload is if we look at meeting culture and find ways to work smarter, not harder.

Segment 3

Eric and Joe discuss work and life balance and how employees need to set boundaries in order to properly recharge. Joe says employers need to be more deliberate with their work distribution in order to complete responsibilities efficiently. Eric and Joe continue to talk about structured time management that can increase productivity. Joe says we should reassess what we consider professional standards. He talks about his clients and what 4-Day Week Global offers them. He tells Eric what can be expected from their services and how they’ve benefited their clients.

Segment 4

Eric and Joe continue to point out how a more efficient work structure benefits not only the employee but also the employer. When there is an equal work and life balance, employees are likely to increase their productivity. Joe talks about the companies that took on the 4-day work week methods and the changes they’ve seen in their employees. He shares what upcoming events to expect with 4-Day Week Global. If you are interested in the program or think your company can benefit from it, you can ask for more information at


00:00:57.090 --> 00:01:03.840 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Good evening, welcome to implement a lot today i'm your host erick solver i'm an employment law business law attorney.

00:01:04.110 --> 00:01:13.260 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): And I host us live weekly talk radio show and it's live video broadcast every Tuesday night from 5pm to 6pm Eastern standard time.

00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:22.200 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Where I have guests, to talk about some of the most interesting and modern and novel challenges and topics that business owners and employers are facing today.

00:01:22.530 --> 00:01:38.700 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): During these trying times and in that spirit i'm very pleased to welcome to the show our guest, Mr Joe Connor Joe is the CEO of the four day work week for the week global a four day workweek initiative Joe welcome to the show.

00:01:39.600 --> 00:01:41.400 Joe O'Connor: hi Eric good evening great to be here.

00:01:41.820 --> 00:01:55.740 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): great to have you on as well, yes, as I think I mentioned to you, Joe in the chat moments ago, having a slight technical problem on my computer so i'm i'm like so right now, but hopefully everyone can hear me Okay, can you hear me all right there too.

00:01:56.160 --> 00:01:58.020 Joe O'Connor: yeah audio and video is perfect.

00:01:58.680 --> 00:02:09.540 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Wonderful my only clip about the iPhone here is that it makes me look about 11 feet tall which i'm not but that's okay well we'll just roll with it and i'll shift gears midway my.

00:02:09.900 --> 00:02:18.750 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): When everything's a tech issues resolved, but in any event, I just want to tell our audience about our topic tonight and then i'll give you your proper introduction, we can take it from there.

00:02:19.890 --> 00:02:26.070 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Alright, so our topic folks is the four day workweek increasing employee productivity.

00:02:26.640 --> 00:02:35.460 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): And I think many folks have noticed that the covert 19 pandemic brought a renewed focus on employees work life balance and wellness.

00:02:35.910 --> 00:02:44.520 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): advances in technology, some expedited by zoom and the remote workplace have opened up new means of working effectively and efficiently.

00:02:45.030 --> 00:02:51.420 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): As well as result of that many companies across the globe are exploring a four day workweek for their employees.

00:02:52.290 --> 00:03:01.830 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): So the questions come up, how can employers maintain or even improve their employees productivity around and output when working hours are cut by 20%.

00:03:02.370 --> 00:03:08.850 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): What steps can you the employer or business owner take to properly implement a four day workweek for your workers.

00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:16.560 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): What are the pros and comments so that's our topic for tonight i'm happy if you'll all join me and my special guests, as I mentioned, Joe Connor.

00:03:16.830 --> 00:03:25.050 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): chosen activist advocates scholar, and the chief executive officer a four day four day week global and I want to reach those.

00:03:25.860 --> 00:03:31.440 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Bio bit, and we can begin our our discussion for tonight, so, as I mentioned folks Joel Connor.

00:03:32.340 --> 00:03:42.540 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): He still is remains the chief executive officer of four day week global a not for profit company supporting organizations from a diverse range of industries worldwide.

00:03:42.930 --> 00:03:52.260 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): To trial or transition to reduce our output focused to be output focus working he's leading the coordination of four day week levels pilot Program.

00:03:52.650 --> 00:03:58.740 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): With over 160 employers and almost 10,000 employees from the United States, Canada.

00:03:59.340 --> 00:04:09.270 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Australia, New Zealand, the UK and Ireland all signing up to participate in four day working week trials in the first half of 2022 alone.

00:04:09.900 --> 00:04:19.920 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Joseph marlon for currently based here in New York City, where he is leading a research project on work time reduction as a visiting scholar and cornell university.

00:04:20.820 --> 00:04:27.180 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): So, Joe with that intro and backdrop and again these tech issues resolving as a May.

00:04:28.050 --> 00:04:33.600 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Nothing like those have to jump into our discussion tonight so again, I appreciate your being on the show.

00:04:34.140 --> 00:04:39.870 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): And I wanted to ask you, my first question, Joe, which is an easy one, but tell us a bit more about yourself but, for example.

00:04:40.200 --> 00:04:49.830 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): How did your career initially started out and then will prompt you to become involved with the four day workweek initiative and then to rise, the CEO of a four day week global.

00:04:51.180 --> 00:05:06.030 Joe O'Connor: Sure, so i've been involved in the campaign's world for a long time, my primary role in Ireland for a number of years was leading the M campaigns for ireland's largest public service representative Union.

00:05:06.060 --> 00:05:06.480 force.

00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:17.910 Joe O'Connor: And as part of this role, I organized a conference which took place in 2018 on the future of working time, this was a topic that we're looking at very closely in the Irish context.

00:05:18.840 --> 00:05:33.630 Joe O'Connor: We also were essentially involved in the formation of the 48 week Arlene group in 2019 which I was the chairperson of, and since its formation and as part of this, I had been collaborating with the four day week global group, which was set up around the same time.

00:05:34.020 --> 00:05:34.500 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): really to have.

00:05:34.860 --> 00:05:44.340 Joe O'Connor: This conversation around the potential benefits of reduced work time to the economy to society and to add to individual companies and employees.

00:05:44.760 --> 00:05:58.440 Joe O'Connor: So the opportunity arose in the last 12 months and I developed a pilot project on the work week in Ireland some air 40 week global in the 48 week us campaign we're looking to develop something similar, so I can.

00:05:59.250 --> 00:06:08.820 Joe O'Connor: Remember, when I moved to New York and in this role and which you know, as you mentioned in your bio i've been very involved in the coordination of these pilot programs worldwide as part of that.

00:06:10.530 --> 00:06:18.090 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): and using Joe yes good to have that to that more recent backdrop and i'm just wondering was there anything let's say perhaps from your.

00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:33.090 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Your younger years, maybe your formative years of high school college or not, that may have led you to be interested, specifically in workers rights or for the shorter workweek and thing there that we should that might be interesting.

00:06:34.110 --> 00:06:48.120 Joe O'Connor: I think what led me down the path initially of you know, worker representation and then more recently into this field of you know, shorter work week research and advocacy and obviously working practically with companies to make this happen.

00:06:48.510 --> 00:06:54.270 Joe O'Connor: um you know, initially, I was very involved in the student movements, so I was elected as the students Union President.

00:06:54.330 --> 00:06:54.930 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): In my time.

00:06:55.170 --> 00:07:00.870 Joe O'Connor: can go away and I went on to become the President of the National students Union in Ireland this.

00:07:01.470 --> 00:07:06.420 Joe O'Connor: took me down the route of worker representation and trade unionism initially.

00:07:06.780 --> 00:07:17.760 Joe O'Connor: I think my interest in the issue with the shorter work week is more recent it's something that you know, we had been observing some of the major pilot programs that were taking place in New Zealand and Sweden, and another country.

00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:25.140 Joe O'Connor: Back in 2018 and one of the big things that really stands out to me as to when you know, this can.

00:07:25.470 --> 00:07:39.750 Joe O'Connor: You know move from something which you know was was maybe one element of my work and my interest is something that really became my my overriding passion was a survey that we did have our own employees in the force a Union.

00:07:40.080 --> 00:07:40.500 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Back in the.

00:07:41.010 --> 00:07:51.000 Joe O'Connor: game where we we surveyed people about their attitudes to work time reduction to work life balance issues and specifically to this question of the four day workweek.

00:07:51.990 --> 00:08:02.760 Joe O'Connor: And one of the things that really, really struck me from from the findings in that, and from the results was the huge volume of people predominantly working parents parents and, specifically, mostly women.

00:08:03.870 --> 00:08:20.160 Joe O'Connor: who talked about their experience of moving to a four day workweek are moving to reduce work time, largely due to you know work life balance reasons coming off maternity leave, you know childcare and then we're doing this for a juice salary that we're doing this for 80% pay.

00:08:20.580 --> 00:08:23.520 Joe O'Connor: What is already have cases, their experience was that.

00:08:23.730 --> 00:08:29.910 Joe O'Connor: their responsibilities in the job, where the same their expectations around the kind of output, that they should deliver were the same.

00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:37.530 Joe O'Connor: so effectively, we had a situation where these people were you know being asked to deliver the same output, or the same productivity.

00:08:37.860 --> 00:08:52.050 Joe O'Connor: But for less pay purely because they you know they could get the job done more efficiently, they could get the job done in less time, so I think that that caused me to ask the question you know number one is this the big driver of you know, the gender pay gap and.

00:08:52.050 --> 00:09:00.060 Joe O'Connor: Gender issues, but also, you know got me to explore to think much more of it that I bet this idea of parkinson's law, which is how much.

00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:15.330 Joe O'Connor: Modern work, you know, is really driven by this idea that task will expand to fill the time available for their completion, and is there a lot of inefficiency and how we work in 2022 and Is this something that that that we can change.

00:09:15.990 --> 00:09:25.290 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): yeah absolutely Joe I think you know some spot on great points there it's like I mean first off, you know your interest in the workers rights and also just in the like noting the gender gap right the.

00:09:25.800 --> 00:09:34.590 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): The disparate impact let's say on a on women in the workforce think you might have to take a four day work week for your child during the during the reasons.

00:09:35.310 --> 00:09:39.330 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): I noticed how much that came up with during the pandemic a lot when women were.

00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:51.000 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): More authentic than the men, you know home homeschooling certainly men are homeschooling their children, as well as zoom's purchase a zoom schooling right having kids zoom online and taking off, but a lot of women.

00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:55.890 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Really felt the brunt of it, so I think, but to hear you say that another point which is that.

00:09:56.940 --> 00:10:06.180 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Even though you studied so many people who are working, you know, say, a prorated 80% week, they were still they may be making improvements are even doing 100% of the work.

00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:13.080 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): And I love that thing you mentioned that parkinson's law, I think it's so true something I found in my own work.

00:10:13.530 --> 00:10:20.340 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Which is not a 40 hour work week, admittedly, but you know moving towards work life balance, I found that like say if you schedule a meeting with someone for an hour.

00:10:20.730 --> 00:10:30.540 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): You know you will kind of it, so it down and beat around the bush and make say elaborate more and that's an hour, where the schedule 30 minutes or 45 minutes often people will.

00:10:31.050 --> 00:10:38.310 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Then we'll just just get to the point, more directly, will have a different pace, so I think those are all excellent points I love, how you brought up the.

00:10:38.580 --> 00:10:45.750 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): You know the gender and a gap and also just workers rights as a military while I represent companies, I also represent employees and I think it's just a.

00:10:46.470 --> 00:10:56.760 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): good thing to have in people's minds, so I appreciate your sharing that with us, it kind of like when did another question could like historically you mentioned some of this Joe but.

00:10:57.810 --> 00:11:07.140 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Talking about the history of the 40 work like, can you tell us, maybe when and where it began, was it in fact in 2018 or was it does it go back before that or.

00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:19.620 Joe O'Connor: I think that there's examples of companies that have been doing this for longer than that you know we've in our work came across companies who've been doing four day work weeks or reduce our schedules for you know.

00:11:19.980 --> 00:11:36.480 Joe O'Connor: 10 years even longer than that so going back to the certainly back into the 2000s, but I think that the movement that global movement, as we know it today was really launched by the perpetual garden trial in 2018 which was led by our founder and 48 week global Andrew Barnes.

00:11:36.930 --> 00:11:48.600 Joe O'Connor: And really that trial was was motivated by Andrew doing some research which suggested that people were only truly productive for roughly around three hours per day.

00:11:49.140 --> 00:11:49.560 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): and

00:11:49.680 --> 00:11:59.190 Joe O'Connor: What he was trying to figure out was you know Is this something that's happening in my business and if I change the conversation away from a focus on the amount of hours that people are spending.

00:11:59.670 --> 00:12:09.120 Joe O'Connor: In the office at the desk or on the clock and really put a much sharper focus and emphasis on output and productivity, can I deliver a bit better business performance.

00:12:09.390 --> 00:12:17.610 Joe O'Connor: And the result results that trial were hugely hugely positive you know they reported improve productivity, improved employee engagement improve well being.

00:12:17.940 --> 00:12:32.700 Joe O'Connor: I think that was really the spark plug for the global conversation that we've seen, which has grown very considerably over the years since then, which I think has been has been turbocharged to some extent by the impact of the pandemic on you know, employers and employees.

00:12:34.110 --> 00:12:43.710 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): yeah you know if anything like I I tend to agree with you, I think that you know mentioned all those different studies and trials and the key you know the sort of shift the focus towards.

00:12:44.730 --> 00:12:57.900 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): sort of metrics of output and productivity and not necessarily you know right on the total number of hours somebody works and that close to three hours of time per day reminds me of books that have come out about another four hour work day and things of that nature.

00:12:59.070 --> 00:13:06.720 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): I do believe that a lot of work movement change whether it's worked from home work both be right have been sort of.

00:13:07.800 --> 00:13:18.480 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): predated dependent, but have been I guess you know from a gas on the fire they've been a catalyst for the dynamic to to really increase it and really you know gain momentum.

00:13:19.020 --> 00:13:30.240 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Speaking of momentum we're actually have to restart, we have to take our great first commercially so your folks listening to employment law today i'm your host erick software employment law business attorney our guests and.

00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:44.310 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Joe connors CEO of the four day week level when we come back we'll talk more about the four day workweek and about how you as an employer can implement it and how it might help your employees and productivity and around so stick around we'll be right back.

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00:15:58.560 --> 00:16:11.850 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Welcome back to class today i'm your host erick so i'm planning a lot of business on attorney host the show and quite pleased at my tech issues Steve resolving itself can be okay and see me back on my computer which.

00:16:12.990 --> 00:16:20.040 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): little bit less destroying then balancing the iPhone and juggling but in a pinch Jeff do you have to do so anyway, Joe it's great to.

00:16:20.400 --> 00:16:29.010 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Have you on the show tonight, and I really think this is an excellent topic know the four day work week and you know more of that title of increasing employee productivity.

00:16:30.060 --> 00:16:41.760 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): My job we talk about your background history, the movement, you know for the four day work week and I think the catalyst of the pandemic i'm wondering if you could tell us like what.

00:16:42.390 --> 00:16:53.370 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Was the impact of epidemic a bit, but how how recent technological changes in the workplace would impact, whether they had a four day workweek movement.

00:16:55.650 --> 00:17:10.380 Joe O'Connor: So I think that advances in technology, have enabled this conversation, and what I mean by that is you know remote working didn't the pandemic didn't make remote working possible per se, it made it permissible.

00:17:10.710 --> 00:17:11.010 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): You know.

00:17:11.430 --> 00:17:20.370 Joe O'Connor: You know, we already had zoom we already had a synchronous communication technologies, you know all of the things that we've done in order to be able to work remotely.

00:17:20.580 --> 00:17:25.380 Joe O'Connor: and maintain productivity, and you know, the idea that you can run a company from your kitchen table.

00:17:25.620 --> 00:17:35.040 Joe O'Connor: These things were around at the pandemic just just made this possible, as a conversation rather than make made it possible technically it's the same way work we.

00:17:35.520 --> 00:17:47.820 Joe O'Connor: are experienced when we work with companies is that you know, for many of them, the four day workweek is already here it's just buried under the rubble of poor meeting discipline distractions and interruptions in the work day.

00:17:48.390 --> 00:17:56.940 Joe O'Connor: You know, for use of technology and outdated outmoded processes and when they actually get serious about addressing some of these inefficiencies within their business.

00:17:57.210 --> 00:18:11.910 Joe O'Connor: They find that actually delivering the same outpost in four days rather than five is something that's well within reach, so this is something that we've seen you know, certainly, certainly the productive capacity and the technological tools are there.

00:18:12.030 --> 00:18:20.910 Joe O'Connor: You know, we know last 20 to 30 years incredible advances in technology, you know when you think about things like globalization Internet email.

00:18:21.180 --> 00:18:21.690 Joe O'Connor: But yeah.

00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:29.760 Joe O'Connor: The average workweek is still roughly the same as it was back then, so I guess the question is, as we now move into this fourth industrial revolution of.

00:18:30.090 --> 00:18:41.970 Joe O'Connor: Digital nation automation Ai you know how can we share those benefits with workers in a way that enables us to reduce work time in the same way as we've done for much of the last century, you know.

00:18:41.970 --> 00:18:42.360 Joe O'Connor: This is.

00:18:43.260 --> 00:18:52.560 Joe O'Connor: That throughout history, we have shared the benefits of improved productivity and advanced in technology in the form of reducing reductions in work time.

00:18:54.450 --> 00:19:00.360 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): yeah I know you're saying there I do Joe I think that you know I love that phrase you use the minimum of making this.

00:19:01.020 --> 00:19:11.580 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): This being the four day workweek and it's it's it's making it permissible, but not making it possible right that now the conversation is allowed to be have it's just not seen this done and a far fetched.

00:19:12.150 --> 00:19:21.090 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): crazy idea or some you know leave the idea right actually you know, the goal, I think the important focus here is that, like you know the four day workweek are saying.

00:19:21.540 --> 00:19:31.050 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Studies and studies have shown, and trials, showing that you actually can be often is as as just as productive as great as a five day workweek and maybe even more, something that people.

00:19:31.350 --> 00:19:35.220 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): That are arrested and more energized with three day rest instead of a two day race right.

00:19:36.090 --> 00:19:47.700 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): We I think we all know how fast a weekend tend to go by and that's that's working on a Monday through Friday type schedule and people who work days on and off might even feel sort of burnt out and not charged up as well.

00:19:48.450 --> 00:19:57.000 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): You mentioned a few things there we talked about technology, but you said right with digitalization and new email, and of course I think you mentioned a better meeting discipline.

00:19:57.360 --> 00:20:10.230 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): right and it gives us example with time management, I think back to shows, such as the office, both are British English version of the American version, where you had you know, Michael Scott, you know this character, you always have these very you know sort of wasteful meetings.

00:20:11.460 --> 00:20:18.720 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): And I think you know, I think that it's a it's definitely a kind of a way to to look at this right there's definitely some something here.

00:20:19.020 --> 00:20:24.930 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): You know, to say, are we just doing a five day week because it's what we all expect is what we're all accustomed to you.

00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:33.720 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Like I think a lot of employers might think that you know well we've done it this way forever and it works, so therefore we have to keep doing it this way to keep working.

00:20:34.080 --> 00:20:49.860 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): But I hear you saying is that you know 50 years ago six years ago, when there was this technology meetings to longer, and there was less you didn't have automated email we're just running a program to get people's calendars up the same, so I think it's a really good point you know.

00:20:51.090 --> 00:21:00.000 Joe O'Connor: yeah I mean I think that's one of the the low hanging fruit in this conversation is you know getting better and how we do meetings you know whether it's that.

00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:09.420 Joe O'Connor: meetings are, as you described in your example earlier taking too long, so you know kind of one hour meeting become a 30 minute beaten commit 30 minute meeting become a 15 minute meeting.

00:21:09.780 --> 00:21:11.250 Joe O'Connor: The other question is around.

00:21:11.280 --> 00:21:21.000 Joe O'Connor: You know how structured our meetings have we got a really structured, you know outcome focused agenda, or are they very general and loose you know, do we have the right people at our meetings.

00:21:21.030 --> 00:21:21.720 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Do we have.

00:21:21.750 --> 00:21:25.680 Joe O'Connor: meetings that are maybe involving the entire team when actually they might just need to.

00:21:25.800 --> 00:21:28.380 Joe O'Connor: call a certain number of people from the team.

00:21:28.410 --> 00:21:29.490 Joe O'Connor: And maybe everyone else can.

00:21:29.490 --> 00:21:43.200 Joe O'Connor: Just be updated by an email so getting much more deliberate and disciplined about how we think about meeting culture is definitely one of the ways that we've seen particularly companies and much more knowledge economy focus roles.

00:21:43.470 --> 00:21:50.130 Joe O'Connor: And we've seen that, as a great enabler for them and making them to reduce work time schedules.

00:21:50.580 --> 00:21:51.090 hmm.

00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:57.450 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): yeah yeah it makes it makes sense, you know the remix last answer job you're saying, I think that.

00:21:58.590 --> 00:22:05.490 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): I find also that you know that's in culture right of looking at meeting and seeing if the necessary or cut the factory speak.

00:22:05.850 --> 00:22:13.260 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): You can apply that to other tasks that workers are assigned right other the same you know how how tight the organizing your workers.

00:22:13.620 --> 00:22:20.730 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): I think you might even bring bringing that into the conversation maybe the question of you know, do you do you be the employer at a higher let's say.

00:22:21.210 --> 00:22:26.640 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): An operations consultant to help you as feline your operations, you know, do you let's say bring in you know.

00:22:27.270 --> 00:22:31.740 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): sort of business coaches out people with their weight they're fine tuning the schedule and knowing.

00:22:32.580 --> 00:22:39.600 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Where to start where to begin and when to let go of professors and let's say an overly doing something, and just kind of know that a job that's.

00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:51.090 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): done well and efficiently is better than a job that's paralyzed by analysis and perfectionism, so I think that might be something that workers, I think, need to sort of relearn right going into.

00:22:52.050 --> 00:22:57.870 Joe O'Connor: It for sure there's a huge amount of retraining and renaming necessary and that you know I like the way you mentioned.

00:22:58.290 --> 00:23:13.470 Joe O'Connor: perfection there because that's something that we find that you know this challenge is a lot of the very deeply embedded norms particular I think of American work culture, everything is a priority everything needs to be perfect, you know working long hours at some kind of badge of honor.

00:23:13.830 --> 00:23:14.310 Joe O'Connor: And the real.

00:23:14.550 --> 00:23:20.460 Joe O'Connor: Is that you know, not every task needs to be perfect, not every task is as big of a priority, as the next task and.

00:23:20.970 --> 00:23:21.240 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): You know.

00:23:21.690 --> 00:23:28.530 Joe O'Connor: I think that actually The key thing and doing this lies less, and you know the individual changes, although we.

00:23:28.530 --> 00:23:38.610 Joe O'Connor: Certainly commonalities in terms of the kinds of things that companies will address to make this work, but a lot of this is around you know the culture in the organization to make this work.

00:23:38.940 --> 00:23:44.220 Joe O'Connor: Because particularly around empowering and enabling your staff to come up with the answers.

00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:53.640 Joe O'Connor: To come up with solutions to come up with the changes to work practices, you know a lot of companies we've worked with have described this as the greatest team building exercise they've ever.

00:23:53.640 --> 00:24:06.540 Joe O'Connor: done and the cheapest process improvement strategy they've ever deployed, because this is really about St you know, this is not just about a benefit where you know you say to people we're going to give you extra time off and.

00:24:06.570 --> 00:24:08.580 Joe O'Connor: You know nothing else you know.

00:24:08.610 --> 00:24:09.090 Joe O'Connor: This is a.

00:24:09.360 --> 00:24:16.680 Joe O'Connor: pro quo, which is around working in a partnership approach between leadership managers and employees to say okay.

00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:30.180 Joe O'Connor: If we can figure out how to work smarter and more efficiently in order to deliver these you know targets these objectives, these very, very clearly set measurable goals that are part of the trial.

00:24:30.510 --> 00:24:39.810 Joe O'Connor: Then he earned you're going to get this transformative gift of extra time off, and what that does, I think it really aligns the company's interests.

00:24:40.350 --> 00:24:45.450 Joe O'Connor: And hobbies interests and an incredibly powerful way that I think few other initiatives.

00:24:45.870 --> 00:24:47.280 Joe O'Connor: can achieve something along.

00:24:49.080 --> 00:24:52.740 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): The lines of interest, yes, yes, so you know, this is not.

00:24:53.460 --> 00:25:01.530 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Well, first off the whole code there's a cultural shift for the change in the culture, the workplace, I think is a very important point that we're both talking about here we're talking discussing because.

00:25:02.130 --> 00:25:09.390 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): You know, you can say right have someone come in and try to get people to schedule on just make it Monday to Thursday, or you know that kind of thing you can.

00:25:09.990 --> 00:25:17.280 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): You can say bring in someone to talk about think you know doing things quicker or but if the culture is tell that you know working long hours.

00:25:17.670 --> 00:25:26.970 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Especially as you mentioned, the United States and, especially, I say, especially the ne ne ne rather in New York City and stuff right, you can see people you know, in an office building think with the lights on.

00:25:27.360 --> 00:25:32.820 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): At all hours that's right that cultural badge of honor maybe needs to be changed, and maybe the badge of honor is.

00:25:33.210 --> 00:25:40.830 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): ready to get things done imperfectly, to get them done right, and also to have that extra balance to explore things in life.

00:25:41.190 --> 00:25:51.990 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): But I think that you definitely right that we need a cultural shift, which I think starts with leadership and it makes me wonder, you know how do you encourage say the the managers and then the C suite executives.

00:25:52.560 --> 00:26:00.930 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): to lead by example, like any studies and say hey you're working in a four day workweek, and so do you is that, like you encourage them to do so or.

00:26:02.100 --> 00:26:15.150 Joe O'Connor: I think it's really important within the company that leaders are seen as walking the walk as well as talking the talk, you know I, but I think that there needs to be a couple of important qualifiers around that.

00:26:15.510 --> 00:26:15.870 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): So.

00:26:16.050 --> 00:26:19.320 Joe O'Connor: You know, first of all, the reality is, if you look at.

00:26:19.650 --> 00:26:34.680 Joe O'Connor: How off, you know what kind of ours do most CEOs or senior leaders currently work, you know they might be contracted for 40 hours, but the reality is is that most leaders and executives are working much more than that they might work 5055 or even more than that.

00:26:34.950 --> 00:26:48.810 Joe O'Connor: So a work week is is not an inflexible model it's about you know shifting the Needle, on the standard expectation, so what might look like success for a CEO might mean that their work is reduced to 40 hours a week.

00:26:49.080 --> 00:26:50.970 Joe O'Connor: When we might have been working 50.

00:26:51.390 --> 00:26:51.690 Joe O'Connor: yeah.

00:26:51.990 --> 00:26:58.140 Joe O'Connor: The other thing that's important to note is that culture within the organization if leadership are not participating.

00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:03.900 Joe O'Connor: Then there's a risk that employees feel you know we have this policy and name alone, but actually.

00:27:04.080 --> 00:27:15.060 Joe O'Connor: By us doing this, you know we're going to have a reputation within the organization that we're not willing to put in the same time and effort as other people, it might affect our career progression, we might be in.

00:27:15.450 --> 00:27:24.960 Joe O'Connor: All of these things, so I think as a leader The critical thing is setting the boundaries, where you know, one of the companies we work with in the UK, Adam bank talked about how.

00:27:26.070 --> 00:27:32.130 Joe O'Connor: Their regulator if they're regulator asked them to meet on a Saturday when they're working a five day workweek they're going to take eating.

00:27:32.730 --> 00:27:35.190 Joe O'Connor: The same thing applies when they move to a four day work week.

00:27:35.550 --> 00:27:44.400 Joe O'Connor: Even if the CEO was day off as a Friday they're going to take that meeting, but it's about knowing the difference between that which is something that's a strategic importance for leadership and.

00:27:44.610 --> 00:27:48.720 Joe O'Connor: You know, sending non essential email to all your employees on a Friday.

00:27:49.170 --> 00:27:55.890 Joe O'Connor: That isn't urgent that can wait until Monday, even when you know that's the day off so it's really knowing the difference between.

00:27:56.070 --> 00:28:05.100 Joe O'Connor: This leadership tasks that we need to show flexibility for, and you know this is something that actually culturally, we need to be really clear that that's not the way we do business anymore.

00:28:05.790 --> 00:28:06.120 hmm.

00:28:07.320 --> 00:28:15.390 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): yeah I think you know it's important at the leaders walking the walk rate showing employees that they know this is the statues, and what they really mean and are behind.

00:28:16.170 --> 00:28:21.660 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): But that that's a good point about like you know employees might be fearful if sort of this is not.

00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:29.580 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): I guess that's my suppose that's probably a good reason why this might be good to implement as a mandatory thing and not optional make it optional.

00:28:29.970 --> 00:28:37.350 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): And then other boys think well if I volunteered right an option if I choose my option to work, four days, instead of five.

00:28:37.770 --> 00:28:44.280 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): And then, my colleagues working longer might i'd be afraid I won't get promoted, I will be seen as taking things seriously.

00:28:45.030 --> 00:28:49.980 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): You know there's a lot more, you said there Joe I want to get into but we're actually on our next commercial break so.

00:28:50.310 --> 00:28:57.960 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): But I think really just some really solid once we can say it's great to have you on the shelf, you have an efficient way of speaking, which I think is aligned with.

00:28:58.410 --> 00:29:03.420 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Your your mission and what you've been doing all these you know of his use of your time so.

00:29:04.350 --> 00:29:11.340 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): When we come back we'll talk more about this, you know the shifting the culture to the four day workweek and also some specific strategies.

00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:21.480 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): that companies can use to implement when it comes to the 40 hour work week so stay tuned you're listening to talk radio nyc employment law today my guest tonight, Joe Connor and we'll be right back.

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00:30:25.170 --> 00:30:36.060 Small Business trying to navigate the covert 19 related employment laws Hello i'm Eric sovereign employment law business law attorney and host of the new radio show employment law today.

00:30:36.660 --> 00:30:49.290 On my show who have guests, to discuss the common employment law challenges business owners are facing during these trying times tune in on Tuesday things from 5pm to 6pm Eastern time on talk radio dot nyc.

00:30:54.150 --> 00:31:02.880 you're listening to talk radio nyc at www talk radio dot nyc now broadcasting 24 hours a day.

00:31:27.840 --> 00:31:36.960 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Welcome back to plan a lot today i'm your host Eric savoured my guest tonight, Joe Connor job as CEO a four day week global initiative.

00:31:37.290 --> 00:31:45.390 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): To really inspire companies and help them move towards a four day work week, which is definitely gaining steam something i'm reading about quite often these days.

00:31:46.050 --> 00:31:50.820 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Joe that last night question, I think the last response to something you know we're talking about.

00:31:51.270 --> 00:32:04.140 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Leaders implementing the point where people also you raise a good point about say if someone is going over their usual 40 hours because something urgent came up where it's really a material key thing.

00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:13.350 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): or they're just kind of you know, filling the time and let's say someone has a 40 hour work week and they're coming in Friday just because they want to send that email off to.

00:32:13.950 --> 00:32:23.700 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): You know, to get that's not urgent to get someone's attention, or to cover some initial thing it kind of reminded me of something I heard from colleagues over the years, networking.

00:32:24.210 --> 00:32:29.010 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Productivity Someone once said that you know it's a people get a certain I don't need him like a rush.

00:32:29.310 --> 00:32:38.460 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): When they complete a task any kind of even administrative tasks, whether it's super important, and I think at the physical don't be hit from little things and I think that.

00:32:38.760 --> 00:32:46.170 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): it's often the reason why, when somebody would say is procrastinating because they're anxious about a bigger project, you know they'll start to like say you know.

00:32:46.470 --> 00:32:50.640 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): It organized their inbox or you know paying them voice, or whatever they they feel productive.

00:32:51.030 --> 00:32:57.750 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): That might be a good way to build up to a task you have to get into you warm up to it, but I think that we, too often, it can be a time waster and.

00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:01.290 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): It kind of goes back to that issue about you know letting go perfectionism.

00:33:02.040 --> 00:33:19.200 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): And just kind of diving into a task and i'm wondering if that's something that you know you've seen with with some of the studies are doing like is one of the challenges that people are perhaps procrastinating and that's why there were work week is expanding to take some 4040 hours.

00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:21.990 Joe O'Connor: yeah I mean, I think.

00:33:23.130 --> 00:33:32.670 Joe O'Connor: If people feel that grabbing an hour in the evening or grabbing an hour on their side assign day off in the same way as is currently the reality with the five day workweek.

00:33:32.670 --> 00:33:33.330 Joe O'Connor: Because you know.

00:33:33.420 --> 00:33:46.170 Joe O'Connor: Sometimes, if it's an urgent task, or if it's a deadline or you know, a crisis, people have to push outside those boundaries, you know so it's the same when you move to a four day workweek the boundary is just different.

00:33:46.290 --> 00:33:46.710 Joe O'Connor: You know.

00:33:46.830 --> 00:33:49.860 Joe O'Connor: doesn't mean that you don't move outside them every now and then.

00:33:50.190 --> 00:34:00.420 Joe O'Connor: But I think the dopamine hit is a good is a good way of describing this because you know if someone feels that spending an hour kind of clearing their inbox on a Friday, even when that's their day off.

00:34:00.780 --> 00:34:07.710 Joe O'Connor: will really help them to kind of feel liberated from those tasks and then great but don't let their don't mean head.

00:34:08.070 --> 00:34:09.840 Joe O'Connor: affect people's ability.

00:34:10.200 --> 00:34:22.440 Joe O'Connor: To have the time off that they deserve, because they got their work done on the other four days, so I think that that's an important distinction to make, I think that the way you described as well you know.

00:34:23.610 --> 00:34:34.500 Joe O'Connor: The idea around these kind of tasks, you know that these kind of lower value tasks which may be aren't delivering hugely on you know the strategic priorities of.

00:34:34.890 --> 00:34:43.080 Joe O'Connor: A role, but there are things that you know you're just trying to get cleared and how do they impact on your ability to focus on what's really important.

00:34:43.470 --> 00:34:54.930 Joe O'Connor: I think that's why both companies and individual employees move to four day work weeks, one of the things that's really important is being much more deliberate about how they design their work day.

00:34:55.320 --> 00:35:04.110 Joe O'Connor: What I mean by that is being much more deliberate around okay we're going to have this time assigned are allocated within the work day or the work week.

00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:13.230 Joe O'Connor: For really focusing on high value projects and tasks not allowing ourselves to get distracted by the noise of everything else that's going on.

00:35:13.680 --> 00:35:27.240 Joe O'Connor: Then, maybe you set aside some time, maybe it's when you're least productive maybe it's towards the end of the workday when you know and things are starting to slow down for you and that's when you say okay i'm going to set aside time for slack for email for carrying out my inbox.

00:35:27.780 --> 00:35:33.000 Joe O'Connor: And also being deliberate about saying Okay, this is a time i'm available for collaboration for meetings.

00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:40.470 Joe O'Connor: You know, for discussing problems and things were colleagues, but just really being much more deliberate about.

00:35:40.890 --> 00:35:45.120 Joe O'Connor: This is when i'm going to do this because if you don't do that often what you find is.

00:35:45.450 --> 00:35:57.030 Joe O'Connor: The collaboration, noise and the kind of distractions interruptions from the pangs of slack and email just eat a nice and easy way to your work week in your work takes the point that the things that are really important are the things that get left on the desk.

00:35:57.510 --> 00:36:03.180 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Yes, you know that's often why I think people saying that they do come in on a day off like three or four hours.

00:36:03.660 --> 00:36:16.380 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Oh, my God I got too much work done by say on a Saturday or instead of a Tuesday or Friday, more so than usual, because I don't have the distractions people knocking on my door there person or a lot of emails or calls coming in.

00:36:17.640 --> 00:36:30.570 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): But it's an interesting point you know, Joe you raise as well, I hear you talking about a few things here right like this seems like this is a toy time management situation or a time management, we strategy nation.

00:36:30.990 --> 00:36:40.380 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): strategizing about time management, this is also I guess you know, a refocusing and shifting paradigms of thought about what it means to put in a full a full week's work.

00:36:40.650 --> 00:36:50.700 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): And who knows that been defined just by some old societal standard or is it would be antiquated perhaps when you look at the technology and the ability to do things more efficiently.

00:36:51.060 --> 00:36:58.560 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): But I definitely hear like I see a lot of there's a behavioral component right there's our organization components, so I imagine it'd be a lot of.

00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:10.620 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): different sort of moving parts like if a company wants to get on board with a four day workweek my they have to consult with other outside coaches and time management experts.

00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:22.980 Joe O'Connor: So let me deal first with your point around you know the the antiquated you know nature of what defines a work, we want to find you know getting your work done to a high standard.

00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:32.610 Joe O'Connor: Because I think that's important particularly here in the States and it's this and I think this is part of what the pandemic and remote working has enabled us to rethink about so you know.

00:37:33.270 --> 00:37:46.470 Joe O'Connor: managers have been you know remote working in hybrid working has forced managers to get better at Measuring results and what gets done rather than using presenteeism, as you know, a kind of a.

00:37:46.950 --> 00:37:57.540 Joe O'Connor: A surrogate for productivity, so this idea that you know, Jim was in the office at eight o'clock this morning, and he didn't leave for 10 o'clock last night so carrie he's a hard worker, but you know, we need to ask ourselves.

00:37:59.070 --> 00:38:08.160 Joe O'Connor: Which is a better sign of professional standards is it someone being able to complete a project to a high quality, maybe shorter space of time.

00:38:08.520 --> 00:38:13.980 Joe O'Connor: yeah is it you know somebody who needs to to you know literally impact their own.

00:38:14.730 --> 00:38:21.870 Joe O'Connor: Mental health their well being their family life everything else, in order to get that work done and I think that's something we've seen more and more companies.

00:38:22.170 --> 00:38:38.160 Joe O'Connor: move to a four day workweek say you know we can get the same work done to a higher standard in less time than the competition, I think it's really redefining what we mean by professionalism and focusing on smart work being being important rather than hard work, you know.

00:38:39.180 --> 00:38:47.160 Joe O'Connor: What you said about about needing that additional coaching and additional support you know that's effectively what we do so in the pilot programs that we run all over the world.

00:38:47.460 --> 00:38:51.810 Joe O'Connor: We offer for things to companies we offer them training workshops, which are led by.

00:38:52.230 --> 00:38:59.190 Joe O'Connor: business leaders who have successfully adopted and implemented the four day workweek and a whole host of different industries and settings.

00:38:59.520 --> 00:39:07.200 Joe O'Connor: Which is really about, you know, giving people access the expertise and the experience of the pioneers that have have led the way on this already.

00:39:08.130 --> 00:39:14.340 Joe O'Connor: But in addition to those kind of more general master classes, which look at planning and preparation and design.

00:39:14.580 --> 00:39:21.720 Joe O'Connor: Three or four day work week trial, we have more specific sessions on time management on productivity hacks on work day reinvention.

00:39:21.930 --> 00:39:27.750 Joe O'Connor: So on these really you know related concepts that are very relevant to the success of a four day work week Program.

00:39:28.140 --> 00:39:40.020 Joe O'Connor: And in addition we offer them, you know, access to mentoring access to a networking community with hundreds of other companies that have either you know trial, the four day workweek or who are currently trialing it as part of our programs.

00:39:40.350 --> 00:39:50.370 Joe O'Connor: And this is really kind of a supplementary resource which enables leaders to be able to share ideas share experiences and collaborate with others who are on this journey, you know so.

00:39:50.760 --> 00:39:59.160 Joe O'Connor: Open sourcing some of the questions and that the challenges that they're experiencing and figuring figuring out how others and in similar situations have dealt with them.

00:39:59.550 --> 00:40:01.680 Joe O'Connor: And then, finally, they have access to a research.

00:40:01.680 --> 00:40:04.200 Joe O'Connor: project through our collaboration with Boston college.

00:40:04.590 --> 00:40:18.630 Joe O'Connor: Which means effectively, you know they can assess the impact of their trial, so what impact is the four day work week trial having on their revenue on their productivity on their employee turnover, you know their levels of sick leave.

00:40:19.020 --> 00:40:25.230 Joe O'Connor: And then, an employee level, how is this affecting people's well being their life satisfaction, their work satisfaction.

00:40:26.070 --> 00:40:34.800 Joe O'Connor: You know, which means that by the end of the trial, they can look at the data and see Okay, this is this is how the four day work week trial has affected my business.

00:40:34.980 --> 00:40:42.750 Joe O'Connor: And affected my people and that's the kind of information that leaders need you know to be able to figure out, you know, is this a success and we want do we want to make it permanent.

00:40:42.990 --> 00:40:54.000 Joe O'Connor: I think it also helps and kind of justifying the initiative to executive teams to boards and to be able to say look we're taking a very data driven approach here's the objectives and the motivations of supply, we did this.

00:40:54.240 --> 00:40:56.370 Joe O'Connor: And here's what the impact is actually been.

00:40:57.360 --> 00:41:03.120 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): yeah it's funny jokey current a couple of questions I had written down to ask you, but you can interpret them right there in terms of.

00:41:03.450 --> 00:41:13.440 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): You know what you being the four day work for the week global write the forward movement what your particular organization, you know does like, in other words, how do you support.

00:41:13.680 --> 00:41:16.290 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Companies that say yeah I want to get on board with the show, I want to try this.

00:41:16.650 --> 00:41:19.860 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Fully work with all my workers, and we have hundreds of workers, with thousands or.

00:41:20.130 --> 00:41:26.640 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): whatnot so I hear you talk about just the open sourcing and collaboration with other companies have done that have gone traveled that pathway.

00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:34.530 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): And talked about the same networking and also meetings that you can have and how to structure this right so you've gotten to guess know kpis and metrics in place to.

00:41:34.890 --> 00:41:47.310 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): To encourage people to measure the output like if you see your employees or you know meeting all those say sales goals are seeing all your clients and getting all the you know their products or services out there that they did before in 80% of the time.

00:41:49.230 --> 00:42:00.570 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): To see that another important point also good to note that you know, this is not just about say you know cramming what hours to four days like I remember, I asked you a question in our introduction.

00:42:01.140 --> 00:42:10.380 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): What is a 40 hour workweek about trying to do for 10 hour days I think you said no it's really about right, you know, looking at you know the the model of.

00:42:11.310 --> 00:42:23.700 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): You know, productivity and realizing that based on your studies of data, perhaps with one puts in 80% of the time I eat four to five days apes and have a week right that you know they could it's not about.

00:42:24.060 --> 00:42:35.490 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): The long hours in a day it's not about working you know 313 hour days it's about you know just having a 20% reduction in work but keeping the productivity, at the same levels so.

00:42:36.600 --> 00:42:43.080 Joe O'Connor: I think you know, the way we define it is, and this is really important for companies when they talk to their employees about this because.

00:42:43.260 --> 00:42:58.200 Joe O'Connor: I fear is often that this is going to mean more burnout because we're going to have to do the work harder quicker, you know it's going to lead to work intensification know what this is about is delivering the same outpost but with fewer or more efficient inputs.

00:42:58.500 --> 00:43:00.780 Joe O'Connor: that's really the key message, yes.

00:43:01.080 --> 00:43:02.880 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): On that on that excellent know Joe let's.

00:43:03.600 --> 00:43:18.450 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Take a commercial break folks you're listening to employ a lot today, right here on talk radio nyc i'm your host erick sovereign plentiful attorney our guest tonight and Joel Connor and four day week global stay tuned for more on this topic will be right back.

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00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:31.230 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Welcome back to employment law today once again i'm your host i'm here today with Joe Connor Joe really great to have you on the show is very thought provoking topic and some really good key insights that you're providing for listeners tonight, so I appreciate that.

00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:34.260 Joe O'Connor: No problem i'm enjoying it Eric.

00:45:34.410 --> 00:45:49.440 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Yes, absolutely you know what strikes me is like about this Joe will many things about me when you talk about the objectives and I think you mentioned right there on the country's objective look for the employee of the benefits of having.

00:45:50.490 --> 00:45:53.670 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Equal maybe better output better productivity right running.

00:45:54.300 --> 00:46:01.620 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): an organization more efficiently and you also talked about the benefit to the employees, their mental health and well being they're like work life balance.

00:46:01.890 --> 00:46:10.020 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): i'd argue, maybe the physical health as well, and the thing is that needs to goals that are either these two things that benefits to the employees and the workers.

00:46:10.260 --> 00:46:19.170 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): and benefits to the employers are not at all mutually exclusive, in fact, they actually kind of go hand in hand, I think, often people think that some initiative that's going to.

00:46:20.040 --> 00:46:25.950 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): make it easier or better for workers people think it's a take from the employer, but what we're seeing with.

00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:36.870 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Everything from the four day workweek you know to work remotely to do see changes in organizational structure is that you give more to the workers and you give them certain.

00:46:37.620 --> 00:46:45.600 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Benefits whether it's rest or more time to recharge and you as a company benefit, so I think it's an important point that hard to make.

00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:51.360 Joe O'Connor: yeah I mean we very much see this as potentially being a real win, win.

00:46:51.510 --> 00:46:59.730 Joe O'Connor: for employers and for employees and we haven't actually talked about you know one benefit, which is actually the biggest driving force for companies.

00:47:00.030 --> 00:47:06.750 Joe O'Connor: In the last six to eight months in particular and for doing this, which is recruitment and retention, you know.

00:47:07.470 --> 00:47:18.840 Joe O'Connor: Most of the companies that moved four day work weeks and the we had worked with certainly between 2018 2019 and the start of the pandemic, they were doing it for one of two reasons that we're doing it because of.

00:47:19.260 --> 00:47:26.400 Joe O'Connor: Productivity motivations, or they were doing it because of well being motivations and issues and concerns around burnout.

00:47:27.150 --> 00:47:31.050 Joe O'Connor: Those two things are so important, but they've actually been bypassed by.

00:47:31.350 --> 00:47:40.530 Joe O'Connor: compact competitiveness and recruitment and retention as the single biggest reason why companies are coming to us interest in exploring this idea, because they realized that.

00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:52.680 Joe O'Connor: If they can pull it off, you know if they can make this work and maintain their outpost by offering people in additional day off it gives them an incredible edge when it comes to retaining their best staff.

00:47:52.950 --> 00:47:59.130 Joe O'Connor: and obviously the impact that it has in terms of reducing the few much money they're spending on recruitment retraining of distilling.

00:47:59.580 --> 00:48:06.000 Joe O'Connor: And also, it really widens and broadens that the kind of pool of candidates that they can attract.

00:48:06.660 --> 00:48:15.630 Joe O'Connor: When they're recruiting for for new positions and we've seen you know, Adam manqu I mentioned earlier they've seen their number of applicants for new positions increased by 500%.

00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:20.880 Joe O'Connor: Since they move to four day work week and we've also seen health wise and not for profit, here in the US.

00:48:21.240 --> 00:48:27.060 Joe O'Connor: Who last June and July were really struggling with employee attrition you know they were they were losing a lot of people.

00:48:27.240 --> 00:48:35.160 Joe O'Connor: They moved the four day work week in August and effectively their unplanned employee turnover has effectively been reduced to zero so.

00:48:35.370 --> 00:48:48.870 Joe O'Connor: This is something that can really, really make a difference, particularly for those companies that maybe can't compete in the top 1% of compensation, but maybe they can give themselves an edge by competing in the top 1% of work weeks.

00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:53.250 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): yeah I think about that think about you know that last point about the compensation like.

00:48:53.730 --> 00:49:00.720 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Getting someone give me some of their time back given them 20% of the week off or or additional Members of the week on through them.

00:49:01.050 --> 00:49:07.410 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Three days, instead of two to go and extended weekend out somewhere with your family or let's take a short trip or not.

00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:17.520 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): it's something that perhaps can certainly be a valuable almost as much, if not more than a city extra money that the company might offer with might have been working six days a week.

00:49:18.210 --> 00:49:20.940 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): You know or wallet hours, and I think it's like an important point, Joe.

00:49:21.300 --> 00:49:32.220 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Including, then what we tend to think in light of you know you hear about recent trend, with a great resignation i've heard it called we just want the gravy shuffle debate we are to zeeshan right just you know people.

00:49:33.120 --> 00:49:40.050 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Get sick they looking at their their work life and wondering if it's time for for systemic change.

00:49:41.160 --> 00:49:51.360 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): I find that a lot of things you know I do the show every week and I find that with novel topics which involves change it's like there's a misconception that it's going to be.

00:49:51.870 --> 00:49:57.450 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): it's going to cost money, sit across time was going to be non productive and I think you've kind of like you know.

00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:03.030 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): If you did that quite well your studies and what you're known for day work level does.

00:50:03.390 --> 00:50:13.740 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Often there's also a fear that that implementation will be sort of so Herculean task that they'll never get to just be way too much of an overhaul and I wonder if you could talk a bit about.

00:50:14.040 --> 00:50:20.670 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): That last point, do you find that when companies sign up with your four day workweek global Joe do you find that some of them are surprised that, like.

00:50:21.030 --> 00:50:28.470 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Okay, there was a workable, but it wasn't the Herculean task that like know almost broke them and they actually were able to adjust them with seamlessly.

00:50:29.580 --> 00:50:36.120 Joe O'Connor: yeah I mean I definitely think that the experience of you know how difficult this is going to be to implement.

00:50:36.390 --> 00:50:47.850 Joe O'Connor: is often you know, is not as dark as they're going to win is the perception may have been it's like any change management initiative you know the best the companies that have succeeded, the most in this.

00:50:48.210 --> 00:50:52.560 Joe O'Connor: At a leadership level they've really said every tier direction around you know.

00:50:52.800 --> 00:51:01.290 Joe O'Connor: Why we're doing this, what we need to achieve in order to make it work and then they've really got out of the way and they've left the details over to their employees to figure out.

00:51:01.530 --> 00:51:07.830 Joe O'Connor: And to really work out how they can make this work, because you know the most detail oriented CEO in the world.

00:51:08.160 --> 00:51:16.770 Joe O'Connor: doesn't know the day to day intricacies of each of their employees jobs well enough to tell them how they need to redesign us in order to do, four days or five days worth of work.

00:51:17.040 --> 00:51:23.700 Joe O'Connor: And for so that that's certainly been our experience you know there, there are no matter how much planning and preparation you do.

00:51:23.970 --> 00:51:29.130 Joe O'Connor: There tends to be some teething problems it's like moving to a different country, there can be a bit of a culture shock.

00:51:29.430 --> 00:51:39.810 Joe O'Connor: But our experiences that for the vast majority of companies that kind of figure out the operations sufficiently whether it's you know rosters or schedules, or whatever is required.

00:51:40.080 --> 00:51:43.320 Joe O'Connor: You know, from an operational logistical perspective to make this work.

00:51:43.590 --> 00:51:54.270 Joe O'Connor: And the same make that move, you know it's a very small minority of companies that ever look back you know our experiences that that most companies that that get to the point of launching trials.

00:51:54.570 --> 00:52:01.950 Joe O'Connor: will end up making it permanent and really the drop out of tends to happen before the trial because leadership of you know.

00:52:02.190 --> 00:52:13.950 Joe O'Connor: got cold feet they've over taught it something else has changed in the business that has led to them postponing it and that's really why, in terms of support that we provide it really is front loaded before the trial, you know.

00:52:14.100 --> 00:52:21.870 Joe O'Connor: was really about helping companies in that planning preparation design phase and, once the company start their trials, you know, most of our work is done.

00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:31.020 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): So you really have to make it friendly and really give them the tools, I guess, in the strategies and the tips that they need right to make this work, because you want this to work.

00:52:31.290 --> 00:52:42.060 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Also you're all invested in that in this work, the company wants to work, you want it to work and so you're giving them know this is a strategy and the coaching and all these different tools and network open sourcing etc.

00:52:42.660 --> 00:52:49.380 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): know I think it's a good idea I think it's like you know, and I hope that even people listening tonight if you're out there in the audience let's say you work.

00:52:49.740 --> 00:52:58.140 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Maybe you work six days a week, maybe, if you can be encouraged to try to scale back to five for those people out there listening right that's.

00:52:58.620 --> 00:53:03.180 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Roughly 20% almost little less than 20% say you know scale back.

00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:15.060 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): 15% on average 70% maybe you'll see a difference in your your quality of your work, but I know that the main issue here is, you know that that see what we can do in terms of.

00:53:15.570 --> 00:53:22.200 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Getting the word out right then people know what what your initiatives all about and then looking at the results, like you have.

00:53:22.500 --> 00:53:31.080 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): You know, successful results, you have the experiential faith component, where people can look to say, this is not some crazy idea that something that you guys are really fun out.

00:53:32.070 --> 00:53:43.740 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): we've actually have a speaking of time three minutes left in the show I like to give my guests to SDN to sort of share what you may any new thing coming up podcast initiatives, the floor is yours.

00:53:44.940 --> 00:53:53.820 Joe O'Connor: Sure, am just very quickly on the point that you just made, you know, I think that that's one of the big things that really made a difference is there's social proof out there now you know, there is.

00:53:54.120 --> 00:54:05.970 Joe O'Connor: The more and more companies to do this, the more and more that leaders are you know are empowered and emboldened that this is something that could maybe work for them and their business, and you know.

00:54:07.200 --> 00:54:14.820 Joe O'Connor: really what we're trying to do with these pilot programs is to demonstrate that the very significant benefits that we've observed companies that we've worked with over the last number of years.

00:54:15.060 --> 00:54:21.210 Joe O'Connor: That that can be replicated on a much broader scale, and a lot of different industries and sectors of the economy so.

00:54:21.630 --> 00:54:30.720 Joe O'Connor: to your point around you know what's next with us, I think the most relevant thing for your listeners, is that we are running another pilot program here in North America, and so we had.

00:54:31.110 --> 00:54:41.220 Joe O'Connor: 40 companies who started trials on the first of April this year, with about 3300 employees total here in the United States and Canada and they're.

00:54:41.880 --> 00:54:48.480 Joe O'Connor: Just over halfway through their six month trial, the midpoint results are very, very encouraging, you know all of the major.

00:54:49.080 --> 00:54:53.400 Joe O'Connor: variables and metrics that we're studying are either trending positively or staying stable.

00:54:54.330 --> 00:55:04.050 Joe O'Connor: Oh, where am we're currently now recruiting and signing up companies for another program that's going to be rolling out in the second half of this year, the registration deadline is actually the end of this month.

00:55:04.440 --> 00:55:11.040 Joe O'Connor: The pre trial support and it starts at the beginning of August, and then the coordinated timeline for companies to.

00:55:11.340 --> 00:55:22.350 Joe O'Connor: roll out there, six month trial within their business kicks off in October, so for any business leaders out there who might be interested in exploring the possibility of an of.

00:55:22.650 --> 00:55:31.290 Joe O'Connor: experimenting with this or in joining the pilot program but also for employees or groups of workers who may be, you know take this is something that could.

00:55:31.560 --> 00:55:39.120 Joe O'Connor: Work in their business but need a little bit of support in terms of convincing their boss and convincing their leadership that this is something that's worth giving a try.

00:55:39.930 --> 00:55:50.250 Joe O'Connor: feel free to reach out to us and the most convenient way is program pierogies or am at four day week calm and and myself or a colleague would be happy to to assist you.

00:55:50.520 --> 00:56:04.230 Joe O'Connor: And whether that's in relation to joining, that the current pilot program or with arming you with some of this research and arguments around you know how this is something that can really benefit both the company and workers and be a real win, win.

00:56:05.460 --> 00:56:12.270 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): Excellent Joe kind of Thank you so much for joining us tonight with our shows come to a close, about to say that if you liked what you heard folks.

00:56:12.750 --> 00:56:15.990 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): reach out to Joe, as you mentioned that kind of information you provided.

00:56:16.500 --> 00:56:25.710 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): If you'd like to show tell your colleagues your friends your clients your family run every Tuesday night from 5pm to 6pm Eastern standard time and wish everyone a wonderful week and.

00:56:26.310 --> 00:56:32.130 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): give it a shot this four day work week I think you have some great points there Joe so thank you once again and have a wonderful evening.

00:56:33.180 --> 00:56:34.290 Joe O'Connor: Thanks Eric appreciate it.

00:56:34.770 --> 00:56:35.430 Eric Sarver - Employment Lawyer (Management): My pleasure.

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