How to face self doubt and realize that it is not unusual.
It's not new but it's everywhere. That uncertainty. Luckily we have a very special guest this week who may just be able to give us some insights - Christine Sachs.
Christine is especially skilled at working with high performers in the next level of their leadership. The skills Christine coaches are often in the realm of authentic communication, executive presence, team dynamics, and overcoming self-doubt (aka “Imposter Syndrome”). Her client roster consists of executives and senior managers in a diverse range of organizations from multinational corporations to high-growth, international tech start-ups.
Graham kicks off the show giving us a background of his guest, Christine Sachs, is especially skilled at working with high performers in the next level of their leadership. The skills Christine coaches are often in the realm of authentic communication, executive presence, team dynamics, and overcoming self-doubt (aka “Imposter Syndrome”). Christine talks about her journey to becoming a coach. She was working for a British University which she describes as being a really great experience yet she was bored. The work was great but she felt bored due to the academic schedule that has a continuous routine. A close friend recommended that she become a coach since it aligns with her personality. Although she didn't know anything about coaching or related fields, she did a ton of research and picked a program to train with. It was the most profound year in her education as she was able to do more self exploration. She describes her work and what keeps her interested in coaching such as asking questions that challenges others. Christine also discusses one of her experiences working at the British Institution and how things like these make her ask questions about “why” for decisions, actions, communication, etc.
Christine mentioned earlier that her looks are from a Asian-American background, but she was adopted into a white family. She speaks about dealing with this difference and how this has affected her life moving through things. She mentions that sometimes there is a set of rules to follow to belong. Sometimes those rules align with who you are and sometimes they don't. Christine says that there are things about white culture that she understands but maybe not accepted into because of what she looks like. Then there are things in Asian culture that she may not understand or not be accepted into because she is seen as “very white” to this community. But because of this, she has learned much better about empathy and coping. She has been able to mold herself into what is needed at the moment. She is also able to connect in a way where she is willing to give up the rightness of her position or opinion to understand others. Christine and Graham discuss more about the sense of belonging in different societies as well as privilege. She says that privilege is something that everyone has in a variety of degrees whether its gender, economic, race, location, and more.
Christine talks with Graham about overcoming self-doubt (aka Imposter Syndrome). She says that the term was actually coined as “imposter phenomenon in 1978 by Pauline Clance and Suzanne Imes. They were researchers who studied women and women of color in higher education institutions and the feelings of doubt and fraud. This phenomenon at first dealt with the idea of personal impact of systemic structures of racism and sexism. Through time, it became an individualized experience, hence the change to “syndrome”. So many people have looked at it as if it's something inside themselves that is wrong instead of caused by what's happening around them. Christine goes into an example of this by asking Graham what being professional means to him? She then explains that whatever being professional is has to do with the generations that came before us that are setting the norms for behavior, dress, language, etc. she describes the psychological challenge behind these issues and how this regenerates in a way that there will be more for someone to feel insecure about if they are someone who is trying to force themselves to “assimilate” with everyone else and fit in what’s “normal”. She brings up the questions that one can ask which are “yes, the system may be this way, and so who am I and how will I respond in the face of that?” That is the challenge questions for an individual.
Graham and Christine continue their discussion on imposter syndrome. Graham asks her if she has it. She responds with yes, of course. She gave an example of finishing up leading a workshop and thinking to herself that she was really bad at coaching. She explains that in those moments, your feelings of self doubt become true and it's hard to create more empowering truths. To deal with this, she says that it takes a lot of intention and practice to not believe everything that you tell yourself which can also be a safety mechanism. Sometimes, she says, there is some level of safety in feeling bad for yourself. She also explains that failing is something that is in every part of life. What matters is where you've chosen to put significance and how you've chosen to contextualize it. Christine also talks about traits that a coach needs to be as open to working with others such as patience and being willing to not be right. Before closing the show, Graham asks her about some myths about coaching or coaches. Some myths that she mentions is that people think that coaching is an easy way to make money and that for clients, some may believe that coaching is a quick fix for problems. But many situations that coaches run into are patterns and behaviors that are deeply embedded which takes time to change. You can reach Christine Sachs through her website christinesachscoaching.com.
00:00:55.320 --> 00:01:03.930 Graham Dobbin: Welcome to the mind behind leadership's always going to be a good sure when we're dancing to the theme tune at the beginning, we are we're always COPs it already Christie.
00:01:04.290 --> 00:01:09.570 Graham Dobbin: And we're lucky enough on a weekly basis to speak, maybe to experts with an opinion.
00:01:10.050 --> 00:01:24.030 Graham Dobbin: today's no exception, but not just an opinion ideas opposing thoughts synthetic kind of push just got me thinking just the other day somebody asked me um it's a thought leaders that I get on the show.
00:01:24.720 --> 00:01:29.730 Graham Dobbin: And I kind of consider this and my humble opinion, thought leaders never call themselves thought leaders.
00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:34.890 Graham Dobbin: You kind of show it it's all about doing they don't need to tell you the one they just are.
00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:42.600 Graham Dobbin: So a label doesn't make anybody more credible instinctively make an impact So there you go there's my thoughts right thought leaders and.
00:01:43.080 --> 00:01:51.480 Graham Dobbin: So today's guest is one of those who does it by doing and challenging showing and Christine develops.
00:01:51.960 --> 00:02:03.300 Graham Dobbin: teams, as well as bringing through the next generation of coaches, this is my favorite bit, because this is where I kind of give a bit of a background to our guests, and this is where they get all embarrassed so with today's guests.
00:02:04.110 --> 00:02:05.310 Graham Dobbin: yeah sorry.
00:02:07.410 --> 00:02:07.950 Graham Dobbin: Okay.
00:02:08.070 --> 00:02:08.820 Christine Sachs: let's see.
00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:09.870 Graham Dobbin: let's see let's see.
00:02:10.020 --> 00:02:20.160 Graham Dobbin: Christine Sachs is our guest today and Christina is a master certified coach with the ICM an accomplishment coaching certified leadership coach as well.
00:02:20.940 --> 00:02:31.080 Graham Dobbin: or coaches when it come up a lot to do that what i'm Christine has been a coach to HR professionals from various agencies within United Nations now.
00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:38.400 Graham Dobbin: she's especially skilled at working with high performance on the next level of leadership there we're going to be talking a lot about that today.
00:02:38.880 --> 00:02:45.720 Graham Dobbin: And the skills at Christie is particularly good at and bringing up is that authentic communication executive presence.
00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:54.930 Graham Dobbin: team dynamics and one that's going to be a big topic for today is overcoming self dough or defensive team is imposter syndrome.
00:02:55.230 --> 00:03:07.200 Graham Dobbin: Now prior to doing this, Christine was a highly successful fundraising professional of top flight universities in the US and abroad, we get this, I think this was hitting the Western new sport Christie.
00:03:07.590 --> 00:03:18.000 Graham Dobbin: You know award winning playwright, and holds a master's degree in English, which is a real problem for me from Washington university and.
00:03:18.900 --> 00:03:30.990 Graham Dobbin: Personal background Christina lives in Manhattan with her husband Tony i'm Dr Vivian and the cat princess My guess is that Christine named princess I to see you christy.
00:03:31.650 --> 00:03:34.410 Christine Sachs: good to see you you're looking well I love my view.
00:03:34.470 --> 00:03:37.200 Christine Sachs: You look refreshed in your new location.
00:03:37.440 --> 00:03:48.750 Graham Dobbin: Oh, thank you well just for for Edward we're coming live from Sydney and New York today so is an 8am in Sydney on Tuesday morning 6am a belief.
00:03:49.140 --> 00:03:50.040 Graham Dobbin: In New York.
00:03:50.280 --> 00:04:01.590 Graham Dobbin: So the end of the day, so thank you for that um, this is what the morning does target give us a little bit of background, how did what push your story How did we get to this point because the way.
00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:11.340 Christine Sachs: let's see way back when and how I became a coach this is, this is a, this is a fun story, so I was working for a very fancy.
00:04:12.030 --> 00:04:25.080 Christine Sachs: British university and it was actually a great life like I was interacting with the power players of the world, basically, because this was the kind of institution, where you all, you had to say, is hey i'm from this institution and everybody wanted to talk to you.
00:04:26.340 --> 00:04:27.180 Christine Sachs: I was bored.
00:04:28.440 --> 00:04:33.330 Christine Sachs: And I had a toddler how she was 17 months I said, is this way life.
00:04:33.780 --> 00:04:47.280 Christine Sachs: Is what i'm going to do the rest of my life, and it was great work but don't get me wrong there's really great work but there's something around the academic calendar that's very routine and a friend of mine was well you're bossy once you become a life coach and I was like.
00:04:48.630 --> 00:04:51.150 Christine Sachs: Can I curse on this is like this do.
00:04:52.740 --> 00:04:53.550 Graham Dobbin: You want Christine.
00:04:56.010 --> 00:05:08.100 Christine Sachs: What you call me the Queen of darkness, what makes you think that I am going because I make this joke, that I was the only new yorker who had never done any personal development, never done therapy, so I didn't know what coach was.
00:05:09.270 --> 00:05:18.090 Christine Sachs: And so trusted friend, I thought okay well Maybe she sees something I don't, and so I did a whole but ton of research and.
00:05:19.320 --> 00:05:23.550 Christine Sachs: Basically picked a program that I still train for or train with and.
00:05:25.110 --> 00:05:40.080 Christine Sachs: It was really the most profound year of my kind of like adult education, because nobody had ever asked me to look at the places in the way that they had if you think about anyone who has gone to college or even high school is very.
00:05:41.580 --> 00:05:42.660 Christine Sachs: tactical.
00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:57.420 Christine Sachs: vaguely related to life skills that isn't a lot of self exploration typically and so these were questions that were asking me about what did I want to do what they did Why did I Why do I choose what I choose how do I listen to people.
00:05:58.590 --> 00:06:12.000 Christine Sachs: And I just found it, the more I The more I did it, the more interested, I was in it and that's how it evolved from coaching to the team stuff to assessments to being with people as they.
00:06:13.290 --> 00:06:20.700 Christine Sachs: Being and working with people through the changes of leadership, and you know the old axiom of what got you here won't get you there.
00:06:21.450 --> 00:06:27.390 Christine Sachs: like this is, this is all like we always think we're kind of done work like fully baked to like what 25 haha.
00:06:27.810 --> 00:06:42.900 Christine Sachs: But then we think we're fully baked at 35 and then we filled with people fully baked by 50 but in watching people you know I work with people of all age groups, all the generations as hilarious when they talk how they talk about each other that's a whole other podcast but um.
00:06:44.340 --> 00:07:00.300 Christine Sachs: But to hear how they you know every every state life stage they think that they're done, and then they discover the next level of work that they could do if they chose it and so that's the thing for me that keeps me interested in coaching and doing what I do because it's never boring.
00:07:01.320 --> 00:07:03.120 Christine Sachs: People are fascinating.
00:07:03.180 --> 00:07:03.690 yeah.
00:07:05.700 --> 00:07:07.170 Graham Dobbin: I don't know why why.
00:07:07.200 --> 00:07:13.560 Graham Dobbin: Why do we not ask ourselves these questions that because one of the things that you just said, there was a profound year you can a lot of self discovery.
00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:24.900 Graham Dobbin: and asking questions that challenge us so if we step back from kind of like what it's like to coach others when we think when we go through it ourselves to be not ask ourselves these questions.
00:07:26.430 --> 00:07:41.790 Christine Sachs: I don't think anyone's I think well, let me say this, I think it's different now because coaching and therapy is so much more mainstream than it was it i'm sorry to say, I think we're peers, so when we were young, it was not a thing, so I I I don't want to.
00:07:42.270 --> 00:07:43.680 Graham Dobbin: Think you'd be kind to yourself.
00:07:44.580 --> 00:07:45.180 Christine Sachs: I don't know.
00:07:46.950 --> 00:07:47.490 Christine Sachs: um.
00:07:48.750 --> 00:07:50.430 Christine Sachs: But I think that you know.
00:07:53.190 --> 00:08:02.910 Christine Sachs: I don't know that the Community is that I grew up in were interested in that sort of thing, there were much more interested in what do I need to do to survive, what do I need to do to.
00:08:03.570 --> 00:08:15.390 Christine Sachs: house, what do I need to put food on the table, get my kids to camp and all the other stuff that you know they wanted to do, how do I, how do I pay for college, so those were the questions that they were most.
00:08:16.140 --> 00:08:26.640 Christine Sachs: involved with which was a jump from the generation before them, which was like how do I get a job you know my grandmother was in depression baby, and so there was, you know that whole mentality so.
00:08:28.830 --> 00:08:30.090 Christine Sachs: So I think it's just.
00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:43.890 Christine Sachs: Well privilege right certain people certain certain socio economic level some races there's the privilege of being able to have the time and space to think about this stuff.
00:08:45.540 --> 00:08:55.260 Christine Sachs: And I think that it's more mainstream so people are it's in the lexicon at pixar has made a living out of making movies that ask these questions so it's being.
00:08:55.920 --> 00:09:09.390 Christine Sachs: introduced to children at a younger age in a very in a much more direct way than, say, you know Tom and Jerry cartoons there's an existentialist them to that, but well not not quite as obvious as like say fix our.
00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:22.560 Graham Dobbin: um you mentioned going up so we're kind of we jump straight into to working this sort of university in the UK My guess is there was something before that How did we get from Canada growing up.
00:09:22.980 --> 00:09:32.040 Graham Dobbin: And this peers around the world looking to survive, or just get a job board kind of this is how it's always been done to their how'd you get to that point.
00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:35.190 Christine Sachs: Oh that's a great question um.
00:09:41.190 --> 00:09:44.220 Christine Sachs: Well, I would say, I think I would say.
00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:51.630 Christine Sachs: I think it was.
00:09:53.370 --> 00:10:08.700 Christine Sachs: it's probably not an unusual experience, I think the difference for me is that it was heightened because i'm adopted so as adopt so if you're listening to this and you can't see me i'm Korean American but I was adopted into a white family and so identity.
00:10:10.260 --> 00:10:15.210 Christine Sachs: was never it was kind of always at the forefront, but we never really talked about it it's so.
00:10:16.800 --> 00:10:30.810 Christine Sachs: You know, and then the environment that we're living in they really didn't talk about it either, and then you know those my family and then there was high school and then there was college and every environment was a little bit more of an opening to like.
00:10:32.100 --> 00:10:32.850 Christine Sachs: Oh.
00:10:34.350 --> 00:10:40.890 Christine Sachs: Here are here are different things here are different ways people see me different I see people differently.
00:10:42.990 --> 00:10:52.050 Christine Sachs: The things that I see on American television don't bring true necessarily for the reality of people in the world, you know um and then.
00:10:53.190 --> 00:11:03.330 Christine Sachs: When I I mean working for the British institution was really kind of just locked locked into the job, but it was really interesting to.
00:11:04.620 --> 00:11:07.560 Christine Sachs: go there and have.
00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:16.710 Christine Sachs: varied experiences of like being with some of the brightest minds in the world, and then you know, there are some.
00:11:18.180 --> 00:11:21.660 Christine Sachs: people there who literally wouldn't talk to me.
00:11:23.370 --> 00:11:33.720 Christine Sachs: And it is fine, it well, I was, I was at the I was at the University, there was a porter for one of the colleges, I asked them a question and they answered my colleague.
00:11:35.340 --> 00:11:40.620 Christine Sachs: And then I asked another question they had to my colleague, I was like I have never experienced this this is crazy.
00:11:44.130 --> 00:11:45.810 Graham Dobbin: How do you deal with something in the mormon.
00:11:46.410 --> 00:11:48.090 Graham Dobbin: The mormon how'd you deal with something like that.
00:11:48.660 --> 00:11:50.580 Christine Sachs: I well.
00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:56.130 Christine Sachs: This is before I forget this before i've done in their personal development at first, I was confused.
00:11:57.390 --> 00:12:00.180 Christine Sachs: And then I I.
00:12:02.250 --> 00:12:13.740 Christine Sachs: remembered being hurt because I was like Oh, you know what having a particularly insular experience Neil, that was the other thing prior to coaching I would keep myself inside of.
00:12:14.670 --> 00:12:26.550 Christine Sachs: Communities environments did challenge, be very much because part of me didn't want to be challenged that way, because who knew if I would you know come up against this stuff so.
00:12:27.750 --> 00:12:36.450 Christine Sachs: So confused and then hurt and then because i'm a petty I wanted to get revenge so.
00:12:37.650 --> 00:12:47.520 Christine Sachs: I had my colleague so so, then I just stopped talking when the porter what wanted to ask me a question but asked my colleague who had no idea, so I just stared at her like what are you going to do, because you're not talking to me.
00:12:49.830 --> 00:12:54.780 Christine Sachs: And so kind of let her play the intermediary between us so.
00:12:56.130 --> 00:13:02.550 Christine Sachs: But the long story short, is that I will I will, these are the experiences that kind of led me into coaching and to ask those questions like well.
00:13:02.970 --> 00:13:06.510 Christine Sachs: Why did that, like I couldn't just have that knee jerk like racist whatever.
00:13:07.410 --> 00:13:22.860 Christine Sachs: But I took a step through beyond that and just said, well why what makes somebody hold those beliefs, what makes somebody what creates the stories about people because i'm living proof that like I may be born in this body, but the physical exterior I don't feel that internally.
00:13:23.880 --> 00:13:26.730 Christine Sachs: So what makes people create the.
00:13:27.990 --> 00:13:32.040 Christine Sachs: images and the ideas about race and gender and ethnicity and.
00:13:33.510 --> 00:13:39.690 Christine Sachs: All of it that that we use to create separation and so that was all of these things were a little pebbles along the way, that.
00:13:40.170 --> 00:13:51.300 Christine Sachs: Just sort of led me to the to the asking the questions on myself and and seeing that being challenged in this way, helped me, but also that helped everybody else I.
00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:51.960 Graham Dobbin: mean i'm.
00:13:53.190 --> 00:13:53.550 Graham Dobbin: Sorry.
00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:55.200 Christine Sachs: No go ahead.
00:13:55.770 --> 00:14:00.750 Graham Dobbin: I just going to say i'm going to do a lot of reading it, the one we're getting prepared for.
00:14:01.920 --> 00:14:15.630 Graham Dobbin: Some sort of activity around dni and it's really interesting kind of having that discussion with a table you I would see as peers around me and some of this is new stuff where it's just the reality for so many people for such a long time.
00:14:17.670 --> 00:14:27.900 Graham Dobbin: And it's easy to sit here and philosophize about how we would react to things of what we should do what we shouldn't do business in the moment it's not that easy because everything's personal.
00:14:28.530 --> 00:14:41.340 Christine Sachs: Well, and and the knee the knee jerk is like do you pay attention to the hurt or do you pay attention to the connection right yeah I don't know if you're up on the news in the US around the Supreme Court leak and.
00:14:42.420 --> 00:14:56.580 Christine Sachs: yeah so my husband and having an active conversation about this, and he was Lord love him, he said, like well you know mentioned, you know you know men I would think that men would want to have consequence free sex and i'm like you do.
00:14:58.260 --> 00:14:58.770 Christine Sachs: And i'm like.
00:14:59.490 --> 00:14:59.970 wow.
00:15:01.020 --> 00:15:08.310 Christine Sachs: Well, I was like you know how difficult it is to actually a child support paid and, secondly, do you know how many rapes go on reported.
00:15:08.340 --> 00:15:10.830 Christine Sachs: And then, how many convicted you do.
00:15:12.930 --> 00:15:20.160 Christine Sachs: But from a from an angry perspective from a you're ignorant perspective, like that was gonna be a big fight, but from a.
00:15:22.350 --> 00:15:27.900 Christine Sachs: curiosity around you know he doesn't have any other perspective and being a man yeah.
00:15:28.680 --> 00:15:29.160 Graham Dobbin: You know what.
00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:39.900 Graham Dobbin: we're good to go for a break sorry Christina just kind of car thing we've got a slight delay we're going to go for a break, when we come back to the break let's dig into a little bit more about that kind of the different perspectives.
00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:53.880 Graham Dobbin: And also, something you mentioned earlier about privilege really curious about how that how that changes as we move forward you listening to the main bank leadership we're lucky enough to have Kristen sacks with us today and we'll be right back after these.
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00:18:15.330 --> 00:18:16.410 Graham Dobbin: Welcome back you're listening to the.
00:18:17.580 --> 00:18:30.930 Graham Dobbin: live here on top radio dot nyc it so Dr type in New York and it's a is Tuesday morning human Sydney and real with Christine Sachs I Christine we kind of went down this route, I wasn't.
00:18:33.120 --> 00:18:36.240 Graham Dobbin: Sure quite early this is this is this a super um.
00:18:37.980 --> 00:18:56.520 Graham Dobbin: curious about how we, how we can change our thinking when when we're talking about coaching and you said that the word bossy was used for you, which is interesting, I was actually on a on a session last night, where there was a large chat about how the word bossy is quite offensive.
00:18:59.700 --> 00:19:07.680 Graham Dobbin: To the group that I was working with, and we also spoke about kind of why we don't ask ourselves these questions that we do coaching my face coaching so powerful.
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:15.750 Graham Dobbin: But just don't talk to me the difference again because it seems like you've you've come through and whether consciously or unconsciously you've kind of come through.
00:19:17.220 --> 00:19:19.110 Graham Dobbin: Just dealing with difference all your life.
00:19:21.450 --> 00:19:23.010 Christine Sachs: Say i'm not sure I understand the question, so you.
00:19:23.340 --> 00:19:36.870 Graham Dobbin: know, one of the things you said about having been adopted and then then kind of you you've got what everybody else sees this body that everybody else sees and kind of mix up in motion how, how is that helped a challenge to because you've kind of moved through things.
00:19:43.290 --> 00:19:46.080 Christine Sachs: Well, I will say I don't I don't have a measure.
00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:47.820 Graham Dobbin: and
00:19:48.390 --> 00:19:48.660 yeah.
00:19:50.070 --> 00:19:50.580 Christine Sachs: reality.
00:19:50.610 --> 00:19:51.840 Graham Dobbin: yeah yeah.
00:19:52.320 --> 00:20:02.040 Christine Sachs: What I will say is, and I think this is true of anyone who is it who's who might identify as biracial or.
00:20:03.810 --> 00:20:08.610 Christine Sachs: You know, adopt and enter interracial a transformational adoption is that.
00:20:09.660 --> 00:20:10.590 Christine Sachs: there's.
00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:13.860 Christine Sachs: You know.
00:20:15.660 --> 00:20:19.410 Christine Sachs: I won't speak for everyone, because everyone is different, but like for me.
00:20:22.410 --> 00:20:28.380 Christine Sachs: The you know, in the in the mdi circles it's called code switching.
00:20:29.580 --> 00:20:31.110 Christine Sachs: But I think it's more of.
00:20:33.510 --> 00:20:35.550 Christine Sachs: You know, there is the.
00:20:39.810 --> 00:20:54.480 Christine Sachs: foundational experience of not belonging and a set of rules that you know you need to follow to belong, and then sometimes those rules align with who you are and sometimes they don't.
00:20:56.700 --> 00:21:09.360 Christine Sachs: And in my particular position because you know i'm you know i'm it's not like being Asian Asian in America or black in America i'm like Asian haven't grown up in a white family.
00:21:10.560 --> 00:21:17.160 Christine Sachs: There are things about why Community or white culture that I understand and know but i'm not accepted into.
00:21:17.790 --> 00:21:28.980 Christine Sachs: Because of what I look like and then things about Asian culture that I don't understand or not accepted into because i'm very clearly white to them you're a banana twinkie whatever you want to call the the fun name for it.
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:32.100 Christine Sachs: So.
00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:38.130 Christine Sachs: Oh yeah I think that I think a new terminology is boba liberal it's what I would be called.
00:21:38.580 --> 00:21:39.990 Graham Dobbin: Right okay you what I mean.
00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:53.940 Christine Sachs: So, but what I think it does is it allows for a level of for me, a level of compassion and empathy that I I don't know how I would have formed otherwise because.
00:21:55.410 --> 00:21:59.010 Christine Sachs: I understand what it means to feel different.
00:22:00.270 --> 00:22:15.120 Christine Sachs: All over like in a lot in a variety of spheres and it's through the empathy but also some of the coping skills to have to adapt and fit in to all these different places that I feel like I don't belong that has created my ability to kind of.
00:22:16.590 --> 00:22:19.980 Christine Sachs: mold myself into what's needed in the moment.
00:22:21.750 --> 00:22:22.110 Graham Dobbin: Which is.
00:22:23.100 --> 00:22:35.730 Graham Dobbin: You know yeah it's a baby, maybe a clumsy correction and I kind of was going down the route that I just wondered how much that helps you see things from other people's perspective and maybe give you the opportunity to put that little bit farther.
00:22:36.390 --> 00:22:39.510 Graham Dobbin: Because it's been something that you've dealt with.
00:22:40.230 --> 00:22:44.700 Christine Sachs: Well, so I think that's a that's a different thing right, I think that.
00:22:46.380 --> 00:22:51.420 Christine Sachs: The willingness to give up the rightness of my opinion.
00:22:53.550 --> 00:23:03.360 Christine Sachs: is different from being able to poke further, because that is all about the relationship ain't nobody going to give a crap about my experience, if I don't form that relationship with them before.
00:23:03.360 --> 00:23:05.010 Christine Sachs: You pie depth.
00:23:05.310 --> 00:23:14.040 Christine Sachs: conversation, so I think, but the ability to have that high def conversation comes in, because i'm willing to give up the brightness of my position.
00:23:14.280 --> 00:23:23.280 Christine Sachs: or my opinion that, like you know I don't know, but I want to emphasize, I want to support like can I put that and i'm willing to say that i'm not going to.
00:23:24.690 --> 00:23:29.040 Christine Sachs: Try to connect with you on the superficial things that I think I understand about you and your culture.
00:23:29.820 --> 00:23:37.860 Christine Sachs: You know I mean i'm sure you like i'm sure you hear all the time when all the tourists come in and they asked for shrimp on the Barbie and you're not even Australia know like what are they doing.
00:23:40.380 --> 00:23:41.280 Christine Sachs: You know so.
00:23:42.450 --> 00:23:47.370 Graham Dobbin: yeah the alternative about being Scottish is not always good so technician from the Barbary at the moment.
00:23:49.170 --> 00:23:55.560 Graham Dobbin: By the people that are mavs help you keep on telling me that there's Scottish never been there it's interesting because we speak about belonging.
00:23:56.610 --> 00:24:01.680 Graham Dobbin: And one of the things we're talking about I will we will come to this a little bit later as well.
00:24:02.280 --> 00:24:10.740 Graham Dobbin: They when we talk about all these headlines of what's happening in business at the moment, the movement of people degree migration or the great resignation, or whatever you want to call it.
00:24:11.340 --> 00:24:23.070 Graham Dobbin: And when we're looking at a killing people in, and I strongly believe that personal relationships and what relationships or culture or environment or just the overlap all over it's not one or the other.
00:24:23.670 --> 00:24:37.950 Graham Dobbin: And up there in Korea, the top two or three is always belonging people want to belong somewhere, and you can imagine that sometimes that was that's not always there for us, and I know that from from living country but.
00:24:38.010 --> 00:24:48.090 Graham Dobbin: It should give you a simple living from from Scotland to to the US and then to Australia, we think that's a really easy transition, you know we all speak the same language.
00:24:49.620 --> 00:24:54.810 Graham Dobbin: Derivatives of it in the culture to culture should be fairly similar there's not.
00:24:55.530 --> 00:24:57.510 Graham Dobbin: As many light compared to what a.
00:24:57.510 --> 00:24:59.520 Graham Dobbin: lot of other people go through right.
00:25:00.420 --> 00:25:03.750 Christine Sachs: Well, and I also think it depends on how you know.
00:25:06.090 --> 00:25:06.870 Christine Sachs: How.
00:25:08.670 --> 00:25:17.910 Christine Sachs: Where the value of belonging lives for the generation baby boomers belonging they don't care they don't care it's not important.
00:25:18.930 --> 00:25:33.660 Christine Sachs: right there like I just do my job I go home like belonging is thing for them, they assume there's a certain assumption very because they had their pensions and you stayed at a company for forever like it wasn't a value they needed to a spouse or a spouse or fight for.
00:25:34.290 --> 00:25:34.620 Graham Dobbin: yeah.
00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:44.610 Christine Sachs: And then gen X has a different experience because everybody skips over us, and then there are millennials which started the whole thing right which needed a lot of like.
00:25:45.210 --> 00:25:53.850 Christine Sachs: That the stereotype is that they're the they're the generation that need a lot of feedback though they're, the ones who really fight for like well what's the training what's my development path what's my career path.
00:25:54.150 --> 00:25:59.520 Christine Sachs: what's the feedback now to the gens ears, who are very focused on belong, I mean millennials do, but like.
00:26:00.120 --> 00:26:11.940 Christine Sachs: For whom all of this has developed into something that that we have now come to coin as belonging and that that need to have Community in a way that was very different than the Boomer generation.
00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:23.130 Graham Dobbin: Essentially, I was looking at some just a couple of weeks ago and I mentioned somebody mentioned that there were a millennial give themselves that tag and have been appointed out the millennials are known, the 40s.
00:26:24.300 --> 00:26:29.310 Graham Dobbin: The top end that really stopped the car so we're beginning to get this ship.
00:26:31.890 --> 00:26:35.520 Christine Sachs: You were the ones they were like people driving the boomers are crazy.
00:26:37.140 --> 00:26:51.420 Graham Dobbin: It wasn't till I it's interesting I was wasn't till I went to New York that someone said to me kind of joking, but the risk that you're always like when there's a joke there's there's a regular be something behind it said I was part of the problem.
00:26:53.130 --> 00:26:58.410 Graham Dobbin: explain to you what you mean middle aged white guy you're part of the problem, in fact, you are the problem.
00:26:59.490 --> 00:27:04.860 Graham Dobbin: And as the conversation went on, you could feel the candidate passionate that he actually meant partners.
00:27:05.490 --> 00:27:18.510 Graham Dobbin: And I had to that was probably the first time that i've ever actually sat down and really considered for how I received how I was looked at, I can imagine what that's like kind of like been a constant basis.
00:27:20.580 --> 00:27:31.140 Graham Dobbin: The real shock was a huge shock to the system, you mentioned and also privilege earlier about people being privileged and or not having that privilege when we grew up.
00:27:32.340 --> 00:27:39.240 Graham Dobbin: kind of being kind of ready to just get on the treadmill and just do what we need to do, do you think a privilege not.
00:27:41.670 --> 00:27:47.730 Christine Sachs: A I think that everyone has privilege, I think that it.
00:27:49.380 --> 00:27:51.540 Christine Sachs: It depends on.
00:27:53.130 --> 00:27:55.170 Christine Sachs: who's using it, and what is used for.
00:27:57.180 --> 00:27:57.480 Christine Sachs: Right.
00:28:01.830 --> 00:28:08.010 Christine Sachs: So there are some people who will like carte blanche say all white people have a certain level of privilege which is true.
00:28:08.310 --> 00:28:08.790 Graham Dobbin: yeah right.
00:28:09.870 --> 00:28:10.110 Christine Sachs: But.
00:28:10.380 --> 00:28:10.680 Graham Dobbin: You know.
00:28:11.070 --> 00:28:24.150 Christine Sachs: There are you know there I you know, there are plenty of you know, by Poc individuals who become quite insensitive you say that they don't have any privilege and they're like I have privilege.
00:28:25.380 --> 00:28:30.180 Christine Sachs: I it's just not white privilege, but it's privileged like whether it's educational gender.
00:28:31.860 --> 00:28:47.250 Christine Sachs: You know where they live in the country, you know so privilege is a it's a it's a tricky question it's really more of the I think like anything else is the awareness of how your privilege acts for you and where you are.
00:28:48.570 --> 00:28:56.730 Christine Sachs: unconsciously, the beneficiary of privilege and you know I think it's always a question of like Where are you eating a betting the system that keeps certain.
00:28:58.260 --> 00:29:02.820 Christine Sachs: structures in place as opposed to you know.
00:29:04.050 --> 00:29:16.830 Christine Sachs: Well, this is just the way it is or no I got here on my you know blood, sweat and tears like well, you did and and you know it doesn't take away from your effort, but you know, there are there are varying degrees of.
00:29:18.180 --> 00:29:29.760 Christine Sachs: Things that helped different people along and that's that cuts across it it's just it's clear as to see, for example in you know white people versus other other cultures.
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:42.600 Graham Dobbin: And again, I didn't see it, and probably didn't experience it and didn't kind of challenge it until until got to the US so again, it was something that they never really had to look at and it was quite confronting actually.
00:29:43.410 --> 00:29:45.300 Graham Dobbin: was what was actually going on.
00:29:46.800 --> 00:29:46.950 Christine Sachs: yeah.
00:29:47.760 --> 00:29:49.050 Christine Sachs: But we're going to take a break.
00:29:49.140 --> 00:29:50.880 Graham Dobbin: Sorry go ahead Christie just before we go.
00:29:51.870 --> 00:29:57.060 Christine Sachs: Like part of the confronting the it's just simply because it's not been part of how you've walked through the world.
00:29:57.420 --> 00:30:12.060 Christine Sachs: yeah your parents your Community never I don't mean just like the white Community community in general don't ask hard questions if you've always grown up asking yourself these hard questions the willingness to have this conversation it's just easier yeah.
00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:18.030 Graham Dobbin: I think if I did, one of those DNA tests will actually create we don't just street in Scotland, that would be about.
00:30:18.060 --> 00:30:18.690 Graham Dobbin: It that would be.
00:30:19.980 --> 00:30:27.930 Graham Dobbin: makes that would be Unfortunately I will have a better way to take a break, when we come back let's let's talk about one of the things we spoke about in the very beginning about the self doubt.
00:30:28.470 --> 00:30:34.920 Graham Dobbin: About imposter syndrome and kind of how that shows up because my guess is what we've just been talking about.
00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:49.620 Graham Dobbin: Is is something that really kind of adds to it on a cell if it needs to be put into the mix you're listening to the mind behind leadership we're in depth conversation with Christian sex today on torpedo the nyc will be back after these.
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00:32:59.970 --> 00:33:05.250 Graham Dobbin: Welcome back you're listening to the mind behind leadership with Christine sacks and we're talking about everything.
00:33:05.670 --> 00:33:18.450 Graham Dobbin: I think we've talked about everything that's 30 minutes, and this is something I absolutely love Christine and I remember when you were on the last time as well we kind of got plan and what we're going to talk about, and then it just goes somewhere else.
00:33:18.450 --> 00:33:18.900 Nothing.
00:33:20.340 --> 00:33:25.980 Graham Dobbin: Serious i'm great to get your insights and one of the things we spoke about earlier and I know this is this is.
00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:42.270 Graham Dobbin: A personal passion for you and you, you probably see it from a different perspective because you're working with clients and also developing coaches so you're working at two levels here and in this thing called imposter syndrome talk to me about the imposter syndrome.
00:33:44.130 --> 00:33:45.450 Christine Sachs: Like kid in the candy store.
00:33:48.210 --> 00:33:50.040 Christine Sachs: Have you done much reading about imposter syndrome.
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:58.890 Graham Dobbin: going a little bit i'm really curious to kind of see what your perspective is because I know it, I know it's a particular area of expertise.
00:34:01.020 --> 00:34:02.460 Christine Sachs: expertise is a heavy word.
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:05.820 Graham Dobbin: Great I know that's why i'm putting on it was let's set the bar high what's the.
00:34:09.450 --> 00:34:20.520 Christine Sachs: Well, it actually was coined as imposter phenomenon in 1978 by Pauline do you know this Pauline class and Susan items.
00:34:21.060 --> 00:34:32.550 Christine Sachs: There was OK, so they were to researchers who are studying women and women of color and higher education institutions, and these feelings of doubt and fraud, and so it became known as the imposter phenomenon.
00:34:34.170 --> 00:34:48.060 Christine Sachs: And how it was specifically around women and women of color and their idea was the the personal impacts of systemic structures of racism and sexism that we're creating this.
00:34:48.840 --> 00:35:03.510 Christine Sachs: Through the decades, so it became it became translated into imposter syndrome and became an individualized it became coined as an individualized experience and the whole systemic foundation, like the systemic.
00:35:05.340 --> 00:35:22.440 Christine Sachs: foundation or causation got eradicated, so a lot of people when they talk about imposter syndrome, they localize it as a problem inside themselves as opposed to very normal reactions and coping mechanisms to living inside of a system that generates.
00:35:24.240 --> 00:35:25.890 Christine Sachs: generates his experiences.
00:35:27.510 --> 00:35:41.520 Graham Dobbin: and talk me through the difference of that night before what what the pot what difference that means and we we take it away from kind of generally what's happening in the culture and environment around us to it's that as blaming yourself.
00:35:44.040 --> 00:35:44.970 Christine Sachs: Right so.
00:35:47.850 --> 00:35:48.450 Christine Sachs: So.
00:35:49.560 --> 00:35:51.210 Christine Sachs: What is professional behavior.
00:35:55.590 --> 00:35:57.210 Graham Dobbin: Yes, that's a big question.
00:35:57.900 --> 00:35:58.170 Christine Sachs: What is.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:12.030 Graham Dobbin: That was professional behavior My guess most people would would would start with tags in a bit to me it's individually, this is what our boundaries are, and when we know kayla was socially acceptable.
00:36:13.050 --> 00:36:19.230 Graham Dobbin: And within a business and what we're super should be but My guess is that's been built over the last few years.
00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:24.930 Christine Sachs: Well, I would say that there are certain norms that most.
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:27.660 Christine Sachs: Companies and.
00:36:29.100 --> 00:36:30.000 practice.
00:36:31.140 --> 00:36:35.670 Christine Sachs: right and who creates professional behavior who creates a standard of professionalism.
00:36:36.720 --> 00:36:39.150 Graham Dobbin: But they tend to be the generations before us.
00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:41.190 Christine Sachs: Who were mostly.
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:44.280 Graham Dobbin: Oh, my goodness, you blaming me again.
00:36:46.770 --> 00:36:47.040 Christine Sachs: All.
00:36:49.050 --> 00:36:49.860 Christine Sachs: Right, I mean.
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:54.480 Christine Sachs: But this is the thing right like when the segregated workforce.
00:36:54.600 --> 00:36:54.900 Graham Dobbin: uh huh.
00:36:55.890 --> 00:36:59.250 Christine Sachs: let alone black and white or color and white.
00:36:59.550 --> 00:37:09.630 Christine Sachs: yep men and women right like what it was all men in the workforce, these were the people they were setting the norms for behavior dress attendance.
00:37:11.040 --> 00:37:15.510 Christine Sachs: decorum language, it was all inside of a masculine paradigm.
00:37:18.090 --> 00:37:20.130 Christine Sachs: And then you introduce all these other.
00:37:21.510 --> 00:37:34.800 Christine Sachs: Individuals women, men and women of color gay people and suddenly you're asking all of these folks to assimilate into the culture, because that's the cultural norm.
00:37:37.260 --> 00:37:37.590 Christine Sachs: For a.
00:37:40.830 --> 00:37:45.030 Christine Sachs: Guy there's a term for it in the gay community I can't remember what it is right now I just read that thing but.
00:37:47.520 --> 00:37:49.230 Christine Sachs: it's basically where you have.
00:37:51.270 --> 00:37:53.130 Christine Sachs: To give me a second I can find it yeah.
00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:55.620 Graham Dobbin: I.
00:37:56.910 --> 00:37:58.770 Christine Sachs: get this this, this is an.
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:02.010 Graham Dobbin: Interesting going to take just watch your final one one of the things that.
00:38:02.640 --> 00:38:11.910 Graham Dobbin: So we talked about it being male dominated or that's that's kind of that's where the workforce was and then within that you've got you mentioned your background.
00:38:12.690 --> 00:38:31.410 Graham Dobbin: and your privilege my background was and kind of very working class blue collar should be talking in in the US and and the motor times I had how did somebody from my hometown end up working in New York, almost as if not shouldn't happen.
00:38:32.610 --> 00:38:32.910 Graham Dobbin: So.
00:38:34.710 --> 00:38:40.680 Graham Dobbin: You know a lot of that was some people really close and like while you've been well and others were or this isn't good enough for you.
00:38:41.310 --> 00:38:43.590 Graham Dobbin: But really so you've rejected.
00:38:44.190 --> 00:38:48.120 Christine Sachs: Right right, so the the term that was looking for it's called cover.
00:38:49.230 --> 00:39:00.660 Christine Sachs: So in the in the spectrum, where you can hide your difference like say you know if you're gay and you're a white gay person or you know, an immigrant from another country.
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:12.270 Christine Sachs: You know, you can downplay your accent, you can not associate with other Scottish people, you can pretend you're not gay and that's a way to create.
00:39:13.500 --> 00:39:20.280 Christine Sachs: Artificial belonging or it's really more fitting in so that the things that are different about your enough or not picked on.
00:39:22.410 --> 00:39:24.120 Christine Sachs: And the.
00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:35.160 Christine Sachs: challenge is that, through the individually like you know, and you know I think I think you know this, but like as we move through the generations we've moved away from big systems thinking.
00:39:35.430 --> 00:39:46.230 Christine Sachs: To individualize thinking and so with that we've taken the focus away from the systems that create this this dis dissociation just connection to.
00:39:47.940 --> 00:40:00.420 Christine Sachs: individualize it and say, because you don't feel confident you're not competent, so we need to have you feel confident and that will breed confidence or competence you're just not quite as anything but.
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:11.310 Christine Sachs: But it gives us this false hope of Oh, if I if I conquer this feeling of imposter syndrome, I will be better, I will fit in I will belong.
00:40:11.910 --> 00:40:29.430 Christine Sachs: Now it's a both end because, yes, there are things that we can take on individually, but it's sort of like in taking them on understanding that you're taking them on inside of a system that will would generate and create more things that will make you feel insecure.
00:40:30.690 --> 00:40:40.500 Christine Sachs: Okay, you know so it's both growing yourself and asking yourself the difficult questions as a measure of growth, as opposed to a measure of fitting in.
00:40:41.820 --> 00:40:52.050 Graham Dobbin: So how do we tackle that as individuals, because one of the things is definitely happened over the last couple of years and I know there's so much focus on it and change happens all the time it's just being with us.
00:40:54.150 --> 00:41:00.450 Graham Dobbin: And it's just it's a little bit more polarized over the last couple years and we're dealing with things that we maybe didn't deal with before.
00:41:00.720 --> 00:41:08.370 Graham Dobbin: But we've still got kind of those norms we've got those those models that we can work with one of the exciting things with us, people are challenging war.
00:41:09.150 --> 00:41:21.780 Graham Dobbin: When we talk about the great resignation of migration of movement of people it's just that the challenging the non surely that's that's um gives people confidence and strength, but also it's good for other thing that it does.
00:41:24.120 --> 00:41:33.420 Christine Sachs: If it's actually changing the norm mm hmm I read an article today that people who are moving inside of the great resignation, or are.
00:41:33.900 --> 00:41:50.700 Christine Sachs: not moving into places that actually they they get these new jobs and they're not as happy right yeah where they're less happy right so that's why I mean like the challenging of the system is great, but if you end up in the same situation because you haven't addressed the system.
00:41:51.810 --> 00:41:54.090 Christine Sachs: At the same time that you've addressed the internal thing.
00:41:55.170 --> 00:41:57.060 Christine Sachs: Then you just move the chess pieces around.
00:41:58.200 --> 00:42:01.560 Christine Sachs: You know i'm sure, maybe have a little bit more money.
00:42:03.300 --> 00:42:09.870 Christine Sachs: But you know as well as I do lifestyle creep means that that's not gonna that's not going to be enough in a in a couple years or in a couple.
00:42:09.870 --> 00:42:23.430 Christine Sachs: Months so, so I think you know, so I run this imposter workshop in New York, and I do it live on purpose, so that you can be around people and work, so I do it in situ so like there are specific locations.
00:42:24.150 --> 00:42:31.230 Christine Sachs: So that the Environment drives up some of the things that we typically associate with imposter syndrome, so that we can look at them in the moment.
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:46.410 Christine Sachs: But we do a very have a lot of focus on what's imposter syndrome and what's not imposter syndrome, so that we're very clear that this is a structural conversation, and this is the stuff that you can, if you choose to work on.
00:42:47.490 --> 00:43:00.540 Christine Sachs: Right Mike what are my triggers what has me react, the way I do you know the victor frankel's stimulus response, yes, of space and that's the space of growth so it's a similar concept so.
00:43:01.530 --> 00:43:12.420 Christine Sachs: You know, yes, the system may be this way and so who am I, and how will I respond in the face of that and that's the.
00:43:13.590 --> 00:43:16.620 Christine Sachs: that's the that's the challenge question for the individual.
00:43:17.640 --> 00:43:23.610 Christine Sachs: That may or may not impact the system, so it really depends, if you have, if you have a commitment to impacting this impacting the.
00:43:24.090 --> 00:43:32.850 Christine Sachs: likely the organizational system because most of most of us in the world are not going to impact the like a global stuff because we're just not in those positions and.
00:43:32.910 --> 00:43:37.830 Graham Dobbin: we're gonna have we're gonna have a final break and when we come back from the break there's a couple of things and.
00:43:38.520 --> 00:43:51.450 Graham Dobbin: We need to have a shot of line and so obviously because there was a post just got up yesterday and i'm involved with a a metaverse event in the next couple of weeks, talking about the great correction.
00:43:52.560 --> 00:43:56.220 Graham Dobbin: And we are absolutely convinced that there's going to be a correction on this.
00:43:56.580 --> 00:44:04.410 Graham Dobbin: And people are not happy in the jobs that, regardless of how much money they get it's kind of obvious so you're the first person that he mentioned this to me.
00:44:04.710 --> 00:44:12.540 Graham Dobbin: That we seem to go to the same kind of wave like that we see that this this is going to be extended for another 18 months couple of years, at least where people are changing that.
00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:28.290 Graham Dobbin: And so we're going to have another little bit for chat about kind of how maybe imposter syndrome shows up what we can do a vote it did we don't pay ourselves, I heard you saying, and we hope you don't mind me highlighting this that you just locked into a job i'm wondering.
00:44:30.060 --> 00:44:43.050 Graham Dobbin: We were talking over the British university, I wonder if, when we talk like that so so just is that all part of what you're listening to the bank bank leadership we are having a fascinating discussion with Christine sacks today, we will be back after these.
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00:46:49.980 --> 00:46:55.800 Graham Dobbin: signer when the when the when the conversation really deep that we forget to dance to the music is because we.
00:46:56.820 --> 00:46:57.420 Graham Dobbin: think that.
00:46:59.310 --> 00:47:16.890 Graham Dobbin: He would visit we've got the game game game face on and listen to the mind behind leadership will speak with Christine sex talk radio, the nyc we're talking about imposter syndrome, or that kind of self doe that my guesses most people have we've got be fair to say.
00:47:17.700 --> 00:47:18.180 Yes.
00:47:20.340 --> 00:47:27.480 Christine Sachs: i'm typically on that, like some people are very readily name it and other people like I didn't think I had imposter syndrome and then I read the list of like.
00:47:27.900 --> 00:47:36.720 Christine Sachs: descriptors like oh my God, I totally have it, I always say like you're basically if you don't if you don't feel imposter syndrome, at some point in your life you're a sociopath.
00:47:38.220 --> 00:47:40.170 Graham Dobbin: Well, I definitely I definitely feel it.
00:47:40.590 --> 00:47:42.060 Graham Dobbin: So everybody don't want labeled as a.
00:47:42.060 --> 00:47:42.870 Graham Dobbin: sociopath not.
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:52.590 Graham Dobbin: early in the morning for me um um here's a big question, do you have it.
00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:55.050 Christine Sachs: Yes, oh my God.
00:47:58.410 --> 00:48:10.440 Christine Sachs: I was leading the pilot version of this workshop, the first day, and it was like I came home, and I was just like oh i'm the worst they're gonna they gave this scored me all tense on the the the end of day emails.
00:48:11.040 --> 00:48:18.480 Christine Sachs: i'm like oh they're gonna like not come tomorrow and was supposed to snow so like everybody made it into the place where we're having it on the second day in a snowstorm.
00:48:19.980 --> 00:48:26.730 Christine Sachs: And I you know we were opened up the data sharing, and I said, well, let me show you how it works in the real world and I shared with them my experience of like how.
00:48:27.030 --> 00:48:33.420 Christine Sachs: I knew I just knew there were all going to quit they're going to want their money back, and it was terrible and my everything know like.
00:48:33.990 --> 00:48:46.020 Christine Sachs: So all the good stuff we wrote on your emails didn't mean anything i'm like 00 because the thing one of the things about imposter syndrome is that in those moments your feelings become facts.
00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:54.360 Christine Sachs: And it's one of the signs of imposter syndrome is that your feelings of self doubt your feelings of insecurity become the truth.
00:48:56.880 --> 00:49:08.700 Christine Sachs: And then from that place it's hard to create more empowering truth, because the rock of the place if you're starting from says you're terrible and that's true and there's nothing you can do about it.
00:49:10.290 --> 00:49:14.490 Christine Sachs: Or you can try really hard, but the real True, this is that you're terrible at it.
00:49:15.150 --> 00:49:31.560 Graham Dobbin: So how do we deal with that i'm genuinely curious how you deal with that I can really, really relate to the you get the feedback every external same as tell you everything's great, but in the mind it's never good enough yeah, how do you deal with them.
00:49:34.530 --> 00:49:36.390 Christine Sachs: So the short answers choice.
00:49:36.870 --> 00:49:37.230 Graham Dobbin: mm hmm.
00:49:38.220 --> 00:49:39.990 Christine Sachs: The longer answer is practice.
00:49:42.180 --> 00:49:52.590 Christine Sachs: Because what what you really do I mean you know this has a coach yourself, like the the or just read James clears atomic habits right, I mean it's ultimately that thing which is like.
00:49:53.640 --> 00:49:58.710 Christine Sachs: you've had X number of years practicing this other pattern of behavior.
00:49:59.670 --> 00:50:14.970 Christine Sachs: Making one choice in one moment or just deciding one day with toxic positivity that you're going to feel different is kind of change it it's not going to end the thing is is also, if you take your feelings to be true you're waiting for your feelings to shift.
00:50:16.050 --> 00:50:23.340 Christine Sachs: and your feelings are likely going to be some of the last things that shift, as opposed to simply willing to choose think okay.
00:50:24.120 --> 00:50:33.060 Christine Sachs: Whatever it is for you right and it's going to be different for everybody, but I want to keep learning or i'm going to put my faith and just the one step at a time or.
00:50:33.540 --> 00:50:44.550 Christine Sachs: or or i'm going to play and then eventually you'll retrain your internal system to read the evidence differently, which will create a different emotional experience.
00:50:45.690 --> 00:50:54.750 Christine Sachs: But it takes precision, it takes intention, it takes practice, it takes a willingness to not believe the things that have always told you.
00:50:55.830 --> 00:51:00.510 Christine Sachs: and kept you safe, because there is also some level of safety in feeling bad about yourself.
00:51:01.650 --> 00:51:02.100 Graham Dobbin: yeah.
00:51:03.750 --> 00:51:12.870 Graham Dobbin: I think interest i'm just kind of as you're talking about thinking, how did I get to it, and I think I think it's a New York thing before I got there before.
00:51:13.410 --> 00:51:24.120 Graham Dobbin: I the fear of missing out was actually worse than the potential failure or something that I never wanted to turn around and say I wish have done this, so we try it and almost be prepared to fail.
00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:25.140 Graham Dobbin: Right.
00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:36.900 Christine Sachs: It says your focus somewhere else, as opposed to stay in the feeling of like well what if and failures terrible and stuff that's it that's that's definitely one way like we.
00:51:38.070 --> 00:51:39.420 Christine Sachs: We focus i'm.
00:51:39.540 --> 00:51:51.060 Graham Dobbin: not convinced it takes away the feel of the film you anymore, it just it just adjusted the focus is elsewhere in it when when the feel your confidence well, listen to the language when it comes will can to deal with it.
00:51:52.110 --> 00:51:54.930 Graham Dobbin: until that point we'll just keep it keep it as far away as possible.
00:51:55.470 --> 00:51:59.760 Christine Sachs: yeah I mean and that's the thing like do you play football you.
00:51:59.970 --> 00:52:01.140 Christine Sachs: play the.
00:52:01.710 --> 00:52:02.730 Graham Dobbin: Proper sports yeah.
00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:04.110 Graham Dobbin: yeah.
00:52:05.010 --> 00:52:16.860 Christine Sachs: So you know you have experience of losing and failing all the time it's just in that context it's okay yeah because inside that context.
00:52:18.060 --> 00:52:20.340 Christine Sachs: it's a part of the game it's a part of.
00:52:21.720 --> 00:52:26.190 Christine Sachs: yep now over here you everyone has just decided that failure is the only game.
00:52:28.200 --> 00:52:45.390 Christine Sachs: And in sport it, it makes the winning more sweet when you actually lives, not always but it's not it's not as loaded with your identity as it is in other places, and so that's that's all i'm saying it's like we fail you fail, all the time.
00:52:46.560 --> 00:52:46.800 Graham Dobbin: yeah.
00:52:47.340 --> 00:52:52.590 Christine Sachs: Just how you've chosen to where you've chosen to put significance, how you chosen to contextualize it.
00:52:53.520 --> 00:53:00.510 Graham Dobbin: Just goes, I again we we took me a ticket that kind of context you feel, but you know you've got the ability to do better.
00:53:01.170 --> 00:53:07.920 Graham Dobbin: Or you will try something else to to move on today's will only got a few minutes left justin I kind of want to get to a couple of things here.
00:53:08.220 --> 00:53:18.600 Graham Dobbin: Thinking about how you develop coaches to be thinking about this, what kind of traits do you think when somebody coming into coaching what did they need to be able to be as open as you are.
00:53:19.140 --> 00:53:30.210 Graham Dobbin: To be able to kind of see it from this perspective of being connected is almost jealousy owner as vulnerable as you are um, how do you what kind of traits as somebody new coming into this need.
00:53:32.070 --> 00:53:35.190 Christine Sachs: Well it's very different based on where you're starting from mm hmm.
00:53:37.650 --> 00:53:40.020 Christine Sachs: If you're like me live a more Taipei.
00:53:41.430 --> 00:53:47.730 Christine Sachs: Patients patients, patience and honestly a being rude to not be right.
00:53:49.560 --> 00:53:56.400 Christine Sachs: Right I I sound very strong and, yes, right like there's you know when.
00:53:57.870 --> 00:54:00.570 Christine Sachs: If you know that you have a particularly competitive.
00:54:01.980 --> 00:54:03.030 Christine Sachs: motivating factor.
00:54:04.620 --> 00:54:20.190 Christine Sachs: being willing to not be right being willing to be in partnership is really probably one of the key characteristics, you know for people who are much more sensitive and in touch with their emotions more stamina and resilience is there is likely some of their trades.
00:54:21.210 --> 00:54:24.600 Christine Sachs: For folks who come out of salting.
00:54:25.680 --> 00:54:26.190 Christine Sachs: It is.
00:54:27.420 --> 00:54:30.330 Christine Sachs: A willingness to be, and I say this in a very generic.
00:54:30.510 --> 00:54:31.860 A very generic scenario.
00:54:33.900 --> 00:54:37.740 Christine Sachs: But I find that one of the trades for consultants is that.
00:54:39.120 --> 00:54:50.430 Christine Sachs: vulnerability that comes with not being right and not and and making mistakes and being human not just being product delivery systems yeah you know, so it really depends on where you're coming from.
00:54:50.850 --> 00:55:01.560 Graham Dobbin: I assume just exactly the same as in the Jeff see happen that kind of getting this this this movement you're going to get a lot of people who want to do, coaching they see that as a kind of a lifestyle.
00:55:02.100 --> 00:55:12.480 Graham Dobbin: Any last question and we don't have much teams and we're going to create this and what's the what's the biggest myths about about coaching or coaches, what do you think.
00:55:13.110 --> 00:55:17.850 Christine Sachs: I think for people, the biggest probably the two biggest myths are it's an easy way to make money.
00:55:20.130 --> 00:55:22.260 Graham Dobbin: Yes, I remember those days, thinking that.
00:55:23.250 --> 00:55:29.700 Christine Sachs: One, and the second thing is that I think for clients, a lot of people think coaching is a quick fix.
00:55:30.720 --> 00:55:33.210 Christine Sachs: It has the pioneer the veneer of.
00:55:34.440 --> 00:55:43.980 Christine Sachs: problem solution we're not therapy what i'm taking to your emotions, but what most coaches are dealing with a very embedded very deeply held.
00:55:44.430 --> 00:55:59.970 Christine Sachs: belief systems and patterns of behavior and that stuff just takes time and people are surprised at how long when I when I suggest a particular level of investment of time as most of my clients it's not the financial investment that's challenging for them it's the time investment yeah.
00:56:01.410 --> 00:56:05.340 Christine Sachs: that's The thing that they don't realize that they actually need that much time to change their behavior.
00:56:07.200 --> 00:56:17.340 Graham Dobbin: of improvement when I came into this, I was absolutely certain I could help everybody and everybody needed help and then i've got the sudden realization that will be actually necessarily wanted it.
00:56:18.870 --> 00:56:26.100 Graham Dobbin: Was us and Christine Thank you so much, I could I could talk for hours with you and.
00:56:26.460 --> 00:56:41.910 Graham Dobbin: we've gone kind of one of the big things a few things become the truth that can note that that that was one of the big things that resonated man resonated with me today we're kind of talk to her own what differences are how we how we see other people and just about how we.
00:56:43.020 --> 00:56:56.070 Graham Dobbin: As imposter syndrome this kind of self doubt thing it was kind of constantly there is about how we manage it and deal with it, rather than then dismissing it Christina hope we hope we get a chance to speak again, thank you so much How can people contact you.
00:56:57.810 --> 00:56:59.550 Christine Sachs: You can reach out to me via my website.
00:57:00.720 --> 00:57:03.420 Christine Sachs: w Christine sex coaching COM.
00:57:04.110 --> 00:57:10.950 Graham Dobbin: Thank you, hopefully we'll see you again, I thank you to dylan Nelson who's been in the background, making sure that we are.
00:57:10.980 --> 00:57:18.390 Graham Dobbin: All good on the tech side for producing and we'll see you again next week when the mind behind leadership, I will say bye bye.