The Mind Behind Leadership

Thursday, July 1, 2021
Facebook Live Video from 2021/07/01 - What Do We Really Own?

Facebook Live Video from 2021/07/01 - What Do We Really Own?


2021/07/01 - What Do We Really Own?

[NEW EPISODE] What Do We Really Own?

There are many people who talk the talk - not many who can also walk the walk.

Michele Berdinis is one of the latter. A master at tactical negotiation, Michele's approach is to avoid litigation, avoid adversarial approaches and find agreement wherever possible. Something that's not always prevalent in a world that wants to be right - especially in legal matters.

Michele also understands the nuances of protecting those precious ideas, designs and processes that we all believe make us and our businesses different. We'll explore what we can really protect and when debunk some of the common myths that surround IP.

Tune in for this insightful conversation at or watch the Facebook Livestream by clicking here.

Show Notes

Segment 1

Starting the podcast, Graham introduces his guest this week, Michele Berdinis. He asks Michele what she likes most about what she does, and she answers that for her, it’s being able to help other people. Next, she describes dealing with attorneys that lack client control or communication and the difficulties that this causes. Moving onto another topic of discussion, Michele details how acquisitions and transactions can actually be emotional. To end this conversation before the first break, Michele then describes what an earn-out is.

Segment 2

Returning from the break, Michele talks about the types of deals she managed in the beginning of her career. She gives an example of how people were attempting to sell their businesses for the amount of money they needed to retire rather than how much their businesses were actually worth. Graham asks Michele if people ever undervalue their businesses, and Michele confidently answers that it hasn’t happened to her. Michele then moves onto giving examples of scenarios one could encounter in her career.

Segment 3

Graham asks what happens when a business isn’t what she expected it to be but she still needs to sell it. Michele then explains that the first thing she does is check out the business and attempt to “clean it up,” before inviting anyone to look at the business. Changing topics, Graham asks Michele to explain copyright and trademarks. She begins by letting us know that copyright and trademarks are all about protecting ideas and how it helps with consumers purchasing certain brands. Then she discusses how, essentially, it is impossible to start a brand with a name that’s already been protected. She explains that people should register their copyrights and trademarks in order to actually protect their idea.

Segment 4

After we take a break, Graham asks Michele to dive into why she supports women in leadership, specifically in New York. She opens up about how she had an unconscious bias against women in leadership positions and how she had to work through this bias. She goes on to say how helpful it is to have women in leadership positions to uplift and support each other. Graham and Michele then discuss imposter syndrome and how it might manifest differently in different people. Returning to the conversation about unconscious biases, Michele brings up that we must first acknowledge these biases in order to work through them, and that just having unconscious biases doesn’t make you a bad person.


00:00:41.430 --> 00:00:50.130 Graham Dobbin: Welcome good afternoon it's the mind behind leadership line here on talk radio dot nyc my name is Graham dobbin and every week.

00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:58.770 Graham Dobbin: we're looking at what leadership means and what practically happens within business and what we really try to grab some real experiences out there.

00:00:59.310 --> 00:01:06.510 Graham Dobbin: And this is about being able to understand what influences others what matters sellers what makes a difference on maybe how we make decisions.

00:01:07.410 --> 00:01:20.910 Graham Dobbin: what's passionate sometimes what's person on gets in the way on business in the last few weeks we've had people like mark randolph the former CEO and co founder of netflix as a guest before ginger Johnston.

00:01:21.870 --> 00:01:33.240 Graham Dobbin: A leading expert in human connection, if you want to catch up with any of those please just go to talk radio dot nyc and you will be able to see all the shores listed there this afternoon.

00:01:33.720 --> 00:01:44.520 Graham Dobbin: i'm absolutely delighted that we've got someone who not only understands that human connection was also help leaders and company owners make those great decisions we've got Michelle cardenas.

00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:51.480 Graham Dobbin: Michelle graduated from brown university and from the University of San Francisco school of law.

00:01:52.020 --> 00:02:03.750 Graham Dobbin: For 18 years she represented startups from permission to acquisition and everything in between, and now she's having a blast in New York with beeline legal our own legal services startup.

00:02:04.380 --> 00:02:14.040 Graham Dobbin: And Michelle has learned tons from watching her clients grow and flourish challenges and we'll probably dig a little bit into those what those challenges have been a little bit later.

00:02:15.090 --> 00:02:29.820 Graham Dobbin: But she's actually learn what she says she's learned even more by doing herself her startup beeline legal provides trademark registration legal services through a web based expert system that equips clients to protect the Trademarks they love.

00:02:30.300 --> 00:02:36.900 Graham Dobbin: And we're going to talk about that, because this could be really personal belongings friendly engaging approach helps clients understand what they need.

00:02:37.320 --> 00:02:46.320 Graham Dobbin: What they'll get and what's next, with all that legal speak and the unexpected unpredictable legal fees and costs i'm hoping we're not on the clock this evening.

00:02:46.560 --> 00:03:03.900 Graham Dobbin: And Michelle was also passionate about leadership development, especially for women, and especially in New York, I know for a fact that Michelle is heavily involved with women's networks and professional forums that look to promote and inspire women within business Good afternoon, Michelle.

00:03:04.980 --> 00:03:05.970 Michele Berdinis: hey good to see ya.

00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:11.850 Graham Dobbin: I was I just just wanted to be noticed that when I did the intro there I don't know if you noticed I managed to take the date soap.

00:03:12.750 --> 00:03:22.170 Graham Dobbin: To the day so off when when you graduated I thought that was only fair, even though you gave me them um, what do you, what do you enjoy most about what you do.

00:03:23.790 --> 00:03:36.090 Michele Berdinis: You know it i've actually reflected on this, a lot in my lifetime, and it is it's going to sound so corny but what I love is when I can help somebody.

00:03:36.660 --> 00:03:45.540 Michele Berdinis: Either I can get them to a place where they never have to worry about a problem happening or where I can negotiate them a really great deal.

00:03:45.960 --> 00:04:01.860 Michele Berdinis: Or, I can fix a problem that's been brewing for a short time or a long time, it is it just it just charges me up it's like if if just being able to give that kind of help is really, really great.

00:04:04.020 --> 00:04:10.020 Michele Berdinis: And i'll give you an example, this is, this is one of my favorite negotiations stories ever.

00:04:11.370 --> 00:04:22.020 Michele Berdinis: It wasn't even my it was an acquisition it wasn't mine, it was my law partners and he he was going on vacation and he asked me to babysit it for him, he was going to be gone for a week.

00:04:22.320 --> 00:04:36.540 Michele Berdinis: He just said, we got three issues left and we can't seem to come to an agreement on those three issues, but we got them left so just baby said it just like just don't you don't need to make any progress just don't let my deal be dead bone I come back.

00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:47.010 Michele Berdinis: So off he goes and on Monday morning I get a call from the Attorney from the acquire i'm representing the target of the.

00:04:47.370 --> 00:04:54.030 Michele Berdinis: acquisition, so the Attorney for the acquire who's a former litigator which is never a good thing, calls me on the phone.

00:04:54.720 --> 00:05:06.840 Michele Berdinis: And he says, I need a copy of this contract that your clients enter into, and you know i've got to have copy of that so I walked down the hall to the power, legal and I said david's deal.

00:05:07.500 --> 00:05:14.850 Michele Berdinis: I just you know, we need to the Attorney from the other side's calling, he says he needs this and she said yeah This is where it is on the on the server.

00:05:15.420 --> 00:05:27.930 Michele Berdinis: And, as I turned around and started to walk out of her office, she said, you know we provided that to them with our original due diligence delivery and I have sent it to him to other times, besides that.

00:05:29.490 --> 00:05:39.090 Michele Berdinis: And I said oh really she said yeah so I went down the hall back to my office, I called the guy back, and I said, my paralegal says we sent that to you at least three times.

00:05:40.740 --> 00:05:43.200 Michele Berdinis: And he started screaming at me.

00:05:44.910 --> 00:05:59.070 Michele Berdinis: know what was don't yell at each other, I mean we all, sometimes we don't yell at each other and he is screaming he is just tearing me apart over the phone and this was in the day when we had like actual phones and.

00:05:59.430 --> 00:06:00.780 i'm sitting there and i'm on the phone.

00:06:05.310 --> 00:06:06.330 Michele Berdinis: And I hung up on.

00:06:08.220 --> 00:06:12.690 Michele Berdinis: This no you don't do that, so I hang up on the guy and he.

00:06:13.950 --> 00:06:17.760 Michele Berdinis: Does it didn't hear from him he called back the next day.

00:06:18.870 --> 00:06:21.030 Michele Berdinis: to apologize for his behavior.

00:06:23.010 --> 00:06:28.560 Michele Berdinis: And then, by way of making it up to me, he threw his client under the bus on issue number one.

00:06:31.110 --> 00:06:34.170 Michele Berdinis: So yeah I know right is he's not sure.

00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:42.810 Michele Berdinis: it's negotiating string apology gift to the other side okay so then.

00:06:44.820 --> 00:06:51.210 Michele Berdinis: He called me the next day for something else, and I didn't even bother to check with my paralegal I just deliberately pissed them off.

00:06:52.320 --> 00:06:59.340 Michele Berdinis: And he started screaming at me and I hung up on him and he called me back the next day, and he apologized.

00:07:00.570 --> 00:07:05.850 Michele Berdinis: And through his client under the bus on issue number two and then I did it a third time.

00:07:07.590 --> 00:07:08.280 Michele Berdinis: and

00:07:10.950 --> 00:07:20.550 Michele Berdinis: David came back the next week is like so how did you get these resolve there's like you really don't want to know, and this is not me I just i'm.

00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:38.700 Michele Berdinis: My negotiating strategy is always assume good faith on the other side, right up until the minute that takes show you that that's not what they're doing and then kill them, but it was this guy I mean what an honor incomplete breach of his fiduciary duties to his client.

00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:44.520 Graham Dobbin: When she know that that that point happened i'm curious, because if you assume.

00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:57.120 Graham Dobbin: Best practice or Bob best intent foot from the other person when when when is that point that you know it's not best than 10 you know it's not just a mistake is not okay.

00:07:59.310 --> 00:08:03.810 Graham Dobbin: I suppose i'm wondering Okay, I get I get when I wonder if there's anything a little bit.

00:08:04.350 --> 00:08:09.210 Graham Dobbin: more subtle because I might My guess is that that doesn't happen all the time.

00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:11.820 Michele Berdinis: It has never happened before or since.

00:08:11.880 --> 00:08:14.100 Michele Berdinis: No, it is usually more subtle than that.

00:08:14.430 --> 00:08:19.260 Michele Berdinis: And it is when i'm dealing with an attorney it is when.

00:08:20.610 --> 00:08:31.320 Michele Berdinis: we're talking on the phone and and we are both never remember i'm not a litigator i'm a i'm a deal lawyer or an intellectual property lawyer, so this isn't like we're not arguing.

00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:49.950 Michele Berdinis: And you know we're will be on the phone and we'll be trying to resolve something, and we will agree, based on everything that we've seen that this is, this is the best way forward, and then I go back until my client, this is how we're going forward and the other side goes back and.

00:08:51.600 --> 00:09:02.190 Michele Berdinis: Just can't face their client with this perfectly reasonable resolution, and so, then they come back to me looking for more and.

00:09:02.940 --> 00:09:11.910 Michele Berdinis: And that becomes a habit right sometimes you go to your client and they're like yeah that's nice for you, but we're not doing that I get that but if you're doing that, on a consistent basis.

00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:23.490 Michele Berdinis: And and you're telling me one thing when we're on the phone together and you're telling me another thing after you talk to your client either you you you you don't know your client very well and what their goals are or.

00:09:24.540 --> 00:09:33.510 Michele Berdinis: you're just lying to me on the phone so one of those two things is true and I don't really care if you don't have good client control and good client communication that's not my problem.

00:09:33.750 --> 00:09:53.700 Michele Berdinis: And I just can't trust you anymore so i'm going to use different tactics and i'm going to use whatever tactics, it takes, you know i'm not really a bulldog kind of a person, but if, if I can, if what's needed is for me to do something nasty or to yell at somebody.

00:09:55.290 --> 00:10:01.920 Graham Dobbin: I can do it so maybe maybe in the after the break we'll get you to just demonstrate that um.

00:10:03.750 --> 00:10:13.170 Graham Dobbin: No, please don't please don't show me whatever you do don't show me it's interesting I was working with a group yesterday we were talking about influencing without authority.

00:10:14.700 --> 00:10:22.770 Graham Dobbin: Now, one of the things that you're speaking about know is kind of come up with a logical arguments we've got these things that this here's the evidence is proves it.

00:10:23.250 --> 00:10:29.070 Graham Dobbin: that a lot of this research and studies, I was quite surprised with this shows the inspirational.

00:10:30.060 --> 00:10:42.630 Graham Dobbin: drives or with the evidence is actually more appealing in the workplace to get people influenced to get people to actually make movement to something that inspires them rather than is just a logical.

00:10:43.140 --> 00:10:48.300 Graham Dobbin: And i've got to admit anything that i've been in negotiations with law, working with with lawyers.

00:10:48.960 --> 00:11:00.450 Graham Dobbin: It tends to be a logical arguments, if you ever have you see ever seen that difference so everything you're talking about there is a is logical, is based on this shows me this evidence, therefore that's the decision.

00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:06.750 Michele Berdinis: No, I mean I think acquisitions are you know a lot of transactions are very emotional.

00:11:07.110 --> 00:11:14.820 Michele Berdinis: And, and there is that component to it, I mean one of the first questions I always ask my client when when they get an acquisition offer and.

00:11:15.180 --> 00:11:26.310 Michele Berdinis: I must always represented targets like maybe 85% of the time, so my client gets an acquisition offer my first question is tell me how you would feel if this deal died.

00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:28.830 Okay.

00:11:30.030 --> 00:11:44.310 Michele Berdinis: right because I need to know that, like I need to know how hard how hard, can I push how you know how much leverage, am I going to have in the connection with this negotiation and um it's usually.

00:11:45.660 --> 00:12:02.970 Michele Berdinis: Once people see a metaphor bucket of money it's really hard they usually get pretty invested in getting the deal closed pretty early on, you don't end up with much negotiating strength, there was.

00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:21.600 Michele Berdinis: My favorite client ever i'll just put it out there, they I asked them that question, and it was it was a very really great offer from a public company to acquire them and I didn't even know these I didn't even know this client wasn't my client all along, they just.

00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:29.880 Michele Berdinis: came to me for the acquisition, because their attorney wasn't really equipped to handle it, so the first time i'm meeting these guys these three the three founders.

00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:41.490 Michele Berdinis: And then we're talking about the deal, and I asked them that question, and they kind of looked at each other it's like we don't care not then somebody else we love what we're doing so, whatever.

00:12:42.570 --> 00:12:45.000 Michele Berdinis: Like Oh, this is gonna be fun.

00:12:47.280 --> 00:12:50.250 Graham Dobbin: So that gives you the permission to go as far as you really want.

00:12:50.460 --> 00:12:54.240 Michele Berdinis: To yeah and man, did we get a great deal, but the.

00:12:54.930 --> 00:13:03.300 Michele Berdinis: best part of that deal so um I don't know if you know what a buy it, you know what an earn out is right so.

00:13:03.570 --> 00:13:07.710 Graham Dobbin: I do, but i'll tell you why it might be worthwhile if you could give a give a brief summary, just in case.

00:13:07.830 --> 00:13:08.670 Graham Dobbin: anybody else.

00:13:09.090 --> 00:13:27.330 Michele Berdinis: So I want to buy your business, I want to pay you 10 $10 million you want 30 million you think your business is worth 30 million I think it's worth 10 million, and you think it's worth 30 million because of what it's what you know not where it is today, but where it's going.

00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:36.120 Michele Berdinis: yeah so we create a formula that says okay so for the X number of months years after I acquire you.

00:13:37.050 --> 00:13:55.650 Michele Berdinis: I will give you some percentage of something I don't know every dollar of profit over, whatever your every whatever it is, we create a formula that says, after the deal closes and for the next X number of years, I will give you more money, based on the actual performance.

00:13:56.670 --> 00:14:09.360 Michele Berdinis: They usually very they're very difficult to negotiate, but that said so in this situation, we had a really good offer, but we ended up with an earn out and.

00:14:11.160 --> 00:14:26.310 Michele Berdinis: It you know we hadn't really negotiated what the turnout was going to look like, so there was just an exhibit to the agreement that was going to have that on there, and one morning i'm just sitting there working on the deal, and I get an email from the acquires attorney with the formula.

00:14:28.140 --> 00:14:29.490 Michele Berdinis: And I looked at it.

00:14:30.750 --> 00:14:50.100 Michele Berdinis: And there was no CAP right it's usually will give you X percentage of whatever, but not to exceed why yeah there was not to exceed because I don't know if it was a mistake, or they thought we were so full of it right like.

00:14:52.020 --> 00:15:01.350 Michele Berdinis: And I just I called my client and it was like oh wait, I have to send this to you, where do you see this is hilarious.

00:15:01.770 --> 00:15:13.740 Michele Berdinis: And they looked at it in there, because they know they know perfectly well what they were going to accomplish yeah and they blew it out of the water but they looked at that, and they said they are in trouble now.

00:15:17.490 --> 00:15:24.510 Michele Berdinis: And oh man they got a lot of money at that are now because they didn't CAP it and it's not my problem.

00:15:26.250 --> 00:15:31.890 Graham Dobbin: we're going to go for a break, when we come back i'm just going to link something when I mentioned daily we spoke about a friend or.

00:15:32.550 --> 00:15:47.730 Graham Dobbin: Co founder of netflix and he told us about that negotiation that he had with blockbuster and then just a couple of things that happened there so i'm going to let me talk about that and also what happens to people when they go from zero revenue.

00:15:48.780 --> 00:16:02.160 Graham Dobbin: to being a client or having an that bucket of money in front of them you're listening to talk radio dot nyc the mind behind leadership we're with with Michelle but Dennis and we'll be back right after this.

00:18:35.070 --> 00:18:40.230 Graham Dobbin: Welcome back you're listening to the mind behind leadership we're speaking with Michelle for dinners.

00:18:40.860 --> 00:18:49.650 Graham Dobbin: We talked about in negotiations we're talking about acquisitions, but talking about Canada was life changing moments that I suppose probably every business person.

00:18:50.070 --> 00:18:59.490 Graham Dobbin: And dreams off, whether they actually want to take on knots another matter, but we get to that point and we had them, but just before the break with mark randolph on.

00:18:59.940 --> 00:19:07.980 Graham Dobbin: And I always wonder when we hear all these stories about these big businesses and what's happened, whether the stories are absolutely true, and he confirmed us that.

00:19:09.540 --> 00:19:17.400 Graham Dobbin: they've been trained to deal with netflix netflix had been trying to deal with the blockbusters for quite a number of weeks and blockbusters just been ignoring them, then all of a sudden.

00:19:17.670 --> 00:19:33.060 Graham Dobbin: him and his business partner were on vacation and they got the call that they needed to go so did summed up in hawaiian shirts flip flops shots into the boardroom or blockbusters and he said it was going really well until the name the price which was 50 million.

00:19:34.650 --> 00:19:42.060 Graham Dobbin: And they were basically lifetime and what mark said was you know they were misguided in that.

00:19:42.450 --> 00:19:55.650 Graham Dobbin: What the what the looked at on the business was how much they've bought how much did raise time which kind of was outstanding what we cleared it, and that was 50 million at that point, so they said, the business was worth 50 million to clear everything.

00:19:56.850 --> 00:20:05.850 Graham Dobbin: So i'm blockbusters didn't think it was obviously i'm things have moved on since then and it's not the same business as it was known as blockbusters.

00:20:06.570 --> 00:20:18.840 Graham Dobbin: But what happens with business owners, when we begin to talk about numbers like that, when we talk about 50 millions, and you know this is a big bucket cash.

00:20:19.800 --> 00:20:24.330 Michele Berdinis: It is a big bucket of cash, and I mean you know I.

00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:33.780 Michele Berdinis: For most of my career, I was doing deals quite a bit smaller than that, and you know these they weren't mom and pop, but they were.

00:20:35.580 --> 00:20:46.800 Michele Berdinis: You know, they were pretty small companies and and a lot of times, it was an acquisition and you know the the owner was getting older and kind of wanted to retire in the early part of my career.

00:20:47.340 --> 00:21:02.100 Michele Berdinis: And the problem you know that you come in and meet with them and well how much do you think you want to sell this business for, and they would put $1 amount and you'd say okay well how did you come up with that, and they would say well that's how much I need to retire.

00:21:03.780 --> 00:21:13.650 Michele Berdinis: And it's like you, you acquire doesn't care how much you need to like retire they care what the business is actually worth and.

00:21:14.040 --> 00:21:27.510 Michele Berdinis: it's those those were hard conversations to have with somebody to tell them that this thing that they've been working on in many cases, you know for 10 1520 years is not worth what they'd hoped it would be.

00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:42.090 Michele Berdinis: And you know, then they have to make the decision whether to continue and build it up bigger before they retire or to you know take what they could get and go but it's it's real those kinds of things are really hard.

00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:48.660 Michele Berdinis: But later, as you know, I started working on larger transactions.

00:21:49.860 --> 00:21:52.620 Michele Berdinis: Particularly acquisitions by public companies.

00:21:54.870 --> 00:21:57.510 Michele Berdinis: really what it would come down, you know there's.

00:21:58.620 --> 00:22:14.520 Michele Berdinis: The dollar amount is really important, but the terms are also really, really important right, and you know, a $50 million acquisition that's an asset deal right so i'm going to buy the individual assets, by the time we pay taxes on that.

00:22:15.810 --> 00:22:28.950 Michele Berdinis: You know you're going to have like half of that if we do it as a merger you're going to have way more money at the end, but they don't want to do a merger right so also depends kind of on the structure and how we're actually going to do it and.

00:22:29.670 --> 00:22:37.110 Michele Berdinis: And a lot of times, even in bigger companies they're not really focused on that kind of stuff right they're not focused on.

00:22:37.410 --> 00:22:43.800 Michele Berdinis: The structure of the deal and how that's going to impact them from a tax point of view and how it's going to you know, and what are the.

00:22:44.130 --> 00:22:58.530 Michele Berdinis: payoff terms right, I mean okay we're going to give you $50 million for your company, but we're worried about these eight lot possible liabilities so we're going to take $10 million and put it in escrow over there for three years.

00:22:59.100 --> 00:23:08.730 Michele Berdinis: and to make sure that that bad thing doesn't happen and we're going to take $5 million and put it over there, to make sure that bad thing doesn't happen, and you know and it's like.

00:23:10.710 --> 00:23:27.150 Michele Berdinis: So that's part of what happens is if somebody hears that number they get really, really, really excited because it is a good number for them and then they realize okay it's really not going to be $50 million and a garbage can, on top of the table like that's just not happening.

00:23:28.260 --> 00:23:29.040 Michele Berdinis: And then.

00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:42.150 Michele Berdinis: pop and they also but then they're afraid to have me negotiate those things because they don't want to lose it all together right, so they don't want the $10 million in the escrow for two years.

00:23:44.310 --> 00:23:53.700 Michele Berdinis: Maybe you can take $5 million in the escrow for six months right but they don't even want me to do that, they don't even want me to try, because they're so afraid that the acquirer is going to walk.

00:23:55.080 --> 00:24:05.340 Michele Berdinis: And that that's always tricky then that's why the hell bad, would you feel if this deal doesn't go through kind of thing is really critical but.

00:24:07.590 --> 00:24:14.580 Graham Dobbin: it's an interesting thing and under understanding that the very beginning, how would you feel because, as soon as the the dollar.

00:24:14.970 --> 00:24:24.450 Graham Dobbin: Is big you know but we're waving that under the and then the emotions change so at least you're getting you're getting a foundation, before anything happens, do you ever get that kind of antiques roadshow moment.

00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:35.130 Graham Dobbin: Where somebody says, I think it's worth three bucks and you say no it's actually worth 3 million so it's actually the other way, do you ever get that moment where if somebody just kind of hopeful that is what the little bit.

00:24:35.850 --> 00:24:42.000 Graham Dobbin: manner, but I never okay just checked I don't think so can anybody overvalues it okay.

00:24:42.810 --> 00:24:46.650 Michele Berdinis: It happens it happens, like it at the beginning to right so.

00:24:46.770 --> 00:24:52.650 Michele Berdinis: They also come in and they start talking to you, and you know they've got this idea, and this is what they're going to do and.

00:24:52.980 --> 00:24:59.040 Michele Berdinis: And then, they say, you know, but I need I need to raise some money to make this happen now it's like okay well how much money.

00:24:59.700 --> 00:25:08.460 Michele Berdinis: How much money do you need to raise, I think I think I need to raise a million dollars Okay, how much of your company, are you willing to give up to get that million dollars.

00:25:09.900 --> 00:25:11.430 Michele Berdinis: I don't know, maybe 10%.

00:25:12.900 --> 00:25:28.050 Michele Berdinis: Oh, so your company is worth $10 million right now, you haven't made anything you've never sold anything you don't even have like a prototype of the thing you have to sell it's worth $10 million right now, no, no, of course, it isn't.

00:25:29.130 --> 00:25:29.430 Michele Berdinis: What.

00:25:32.250 --> 00:25:44.580 Michele Berdinis: gotta get realistic if you want a million dollars you're gonna have to give up a million dollars, you know you're gonna have to sell a million dollar worth of stock and I don't think anybody's gonna take 10% of the stock for that I.

00:25:45.150 --> 00:25:52.830 Graham Dobbin: support them that read that raises the question where you've got people who maybe inventors you've got people who are creative the got people are really, really good at what you do.

00:25:54.030 --> 00:26:02.970 Graham Dobbin: But as a business person it's just not fitting they kind of don't understand it, we see it on something like in the UK is dragon's den or shark tank.

00:26:03.360 --> 00:26:15.240 Graham Dobbin: In the US, where people come in and put valuations and the business, and from that from almost the get go you're looking good, this will never happen this is water, you know the good negotiations not going anywhere.

00:26:15.870 --> 00:26:18.120 Michele Berdinis: yeah and it's it's you know.

00:26:20.310 --> 00:26:24.390 Michele Berdinis: To start a company to do a start up, you have to be.

00:26:26.010 --> 00:26:27.810 Michele Berdinis: That level of optimistic.

00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:29.730 Graham Dobbin: mm hmm right.

00:26:29.760 --> 00:26:35.100 Michele Berdinis: If you couldn't bring out that optimism if you didn't have that vision.

00:26:35.790 --> 00:26:46.770 Michele Berdinis: Then there's no way you're going to do this right so it's it's expected it's it's kind of this is, this is the, this is the flavor ice cream you get when you talk to an entrepreneur and that's okay.

00:26:47.550 --> 00:27:02.700 Michele Berdinis: That totally works my job, you know, is to talk them down off that ledge at least Okay, so you need this money, you have to have this money to make this thing happen so, what are you going to do, are you just not going to do it.

00:27:02.760 --> 00:27:03.840 Michele Berdinis: Or are you going to.

00:27:04.290 --> 00:27:16.110 Michele Berdinis: Take maybe a little bit less money give up less of the company bootstrap your way up you know, maybe take $200,000 use that to get the prototype maybe get to your first sale.

00:27:16.170 --> 00:27:22.290 Michele Berdinis: With that amount of money then lets you know that we have a higher valuation OK now we'll raise some more money.

00:27:22.710 --> 00:27:34.410 Michele Berdinis: And they don't like that, because then they spend all their time just racing rounds of financing and that's really hard to and it eats up all their time and the answer is this ain't easy.

00:27:35.730 --> 00:27:36.150 Michele Berdinis: Right.

00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:44.070 Michele Berdinis: yeah hard it's really, really hard and and what you need around your advisors that can kind of.

00:27:45.270 --> 00:27:48.240 Michele Berdinis: help you through it and, and you, you, you have to be.

00:27:49.470 --> 00:27:54.210 Michele Berdinis: You know you can't be mean to people right you can't say to them, this is the dumbest idea.

00:27:54.330 --> 00:27:56.610 Graham Dobbin: You can you can be mean to people.

00:27:56.850 --> 00:27:57.420 Michele Berdinis: Surely.

00:27:57.960 --> 00:27:59.010 It doesn't help them.

00:28:00.060 --> 00:28:00.810 Graham Dobbin: I don't know.

00:28:01.530 --> 00:28:03.480 Graham Dobbin: i'm just giving you permission, if you really wanted to.

00:28:06.210 --> 00:28:11.100 Michele Berdinis: I mean it really doesn't right, you know what you're trying to do is help that person.

00:28:12.330 --> 00:28:23.730 Michele Berdinis: get to where they want to be, and they have they have a very specific route in mind for for getting there, and you know that's not going to take them there right, so you focus with them.

00:28:24.510 --> 00:28:34.650 Michele Berdinis: You have the the common thing is, we both want you to reach that goal yeah how are we getting there and there's a couple of different roads, we can take so which one do you want to take.

00:28:35.100 --> 00:28:45.810 Michele Berdinis: You want to refinance your House and use your own money no Okay, you want to borrow the money, no you don't want to do that Okay, what do you want, you know here's all the different ways, you can go about doing it.

00:28:46.410 --> 00:28:53.610 Michele Berdinis: And these are the realistic ways so pick one of those and let's do that because that's how you're going to get there.

00:28:54.000 --> 00:29:07.770 Michele Berdinis: And as long as you're focused with them on the goal and that's the same in my trademark practice, you know my slogan is you know, helping you protect the trademark you love it may not be that trademark you love it'll be a trademark you love.

00:29:07.980 --> 00:29:09.510 Michele Berdinis: It may not be the one you have in mind.

00:29:09.510 --> 00:29:11.400 Michele Berdinis: Because we may not be able to do that one.

00:29:12.540 --> 00:29:23.340 Graham Dobbin: um we're actually going to come to let's come to that, after the break i'm really curious about trademarks IP copyright Canada MySpace misconceptions and misperceptions around those.

00:29:23.910 --> 00:29:35.310 Graham Dobbin: And why they're so personal to us as well you're listening to the mind buying leadership we're speaking with Michelle but Dennis my name is Graham dobbin we're on talk radio dot nyc and we'll be back after these messages.

00:32:27.030 --> 00:32:36.360 Graham Dobbin: Welcome back to the main line leadership we have another dancer everybody ends up dancing at some point to that theme tune, they just do we can't help it.

00:32:36.750 --> 00:32:46.560 Graham Dobbin: i'm sure we're going to talk about IP copyrights trademarks what's the difference, but just in a more we just just kind of finish off the last section, something that that.

00:32:48.270 --> 00:33:01.740 Graham Dobbin: That I thought about this is just me you and the listener Okay, so you can you can tell me anything what happens when you can open up a business and see that it's maybe not everything that he appears to be.

00:33:03.180 --> 00:33:07.680 Graham Dobbin: And you still trying to sell it what happens.

00:33:09.030 --> 00:33:11.640 Michele Berdinis: yeah I once heard somebody.

00:33:12.870 --> 00:33:16.710 Michele Berdinis: refer to that as the this company is a mess discount.

00:33:19.410 --> 00:33:20.640 Graham Dobbin: So what do you think.

00:33:21.630 --> 00:33:28.740 Michele Berdinis: of your revenue times the multiplier you should get this much, but when we opened up the box and we looked inside.

00:33:30.060 --> 00:33:34.620 Michele Berdinis: It was so scary in there that we're going to give you half of that and.

00:33:35.250 --> 00:33:47.070 Michele Berdinis: A lot of times if if if somebody comes to me, and they say I i'm thinking about selling my business i'd like you know, then and I look at the first thing I do is I look inside the box and I.

00:33:47.610 --> 00:33:52.290 Michele Berdinis: Okay let's clean all this up right let's, for example, you've you've been.

00:33:52.680 --> 00:34:01.440 Michele Berdinis: you've been paying your you know your son is salary and he's not really working in the business and that's lowering your profit right so.

00:34:01.710 --> 00:34:08.730 Michele Berdinis: Maybe let's get him off of that you know let's clean this up so you've got three years worth of really clean financials.

00:34:09.060 --> 00:34:25.260 Michele Berdinis: And let's fix this problem and fix that problem to get this all like like you're selling a house right let's get everything fixed in Nice and paint the walls get it all really nice before we invite anybody into have a look at it, because you're open end up getting more money.

00:34:26.550 --> 00:34:33.720 Michele Berdinis: And you know that's just it's really nice if you can keep it Nice and tidy all the time, but if you can at least clean it up before you go to sell.

00:34:34.230 --> 00:34:47.160 Graham Dobbin: The here's the thing when when people are selling houses are two things that happen either one the paint the walls to make it look better make it look more appealing Nicholas nature or the people, people in the walls to hide what's on the wall.

00:34:48.600 --> 00:34:53.370 Graham Dobbin: And sorry to say, well it's up to the buyer to find it not my problem.

00:34:54.840 --> 00:34:59.100 Michele Berdinis: right but see that's that well that everywhere right in.

00:34:59.100 --> 00:35:00.000 California.

00:35:01.380 --> 00:35:09.750 Michele Berdinis: But OK so with when when you do an acquisition agreement or merger agreement right agreement whereby we're so there's going to be.

00:35:10.170 --> 00:35:17.010 Michele Berdinis: almost always section three and it can run anywhere from like two pages to 50 pages with REPS and warranties.

00:35:17.370 --> 00:35:28.470 Michele Berdinis: Right and it's going to say, these are my financials you know attached as exhibit whatever are the last three years of my financial statements and they are accurate.

00:35:29.190 --> 00:35:36.480 Michele Berdinis: right here is a list of my equipment, it is an accurate list and everything is in good working order.

00:35:37.020 --> 00:35:51.210 Michele Berdinis: Here right, and I mean, and this goes on for pages after pages after pages right here's a list of all of my sales contracts every one of these is legitimate and nobody's behind on their payments or here's a schedule of through the ones.

00:35:52.200 --> 00:35:59.490 Michele Berdinis: Like so you're giving all these representations and warranties and typically there's an escrow there's they hold back a portion of the.

00:35:59.730 --> 00:36:12.270 Michele Berdinis: purchase price for some period of time we get to argue about what that period of time is going to be, and if any of that stuff turns out to not be true yeah we're taking it out of escrow right, so you are you're not I mean.

00:36:12.810 --> 00:36:20.850 Michele Berdinis: nobody's going to buy it well, not nobody, but nobody who's my client is going to buy a business without getting REPS and warranties from the other side.

00:36:20.970 --> 00:36:23.250 Graham Dobbin: Okay i'm just going to put a ton of pain away, then.

00:36:26.190 --> 00:36:28.290 Graham Dobbin: Talk to you hi i'm i'm.

00:36:29.700 --> 00:36:35.490 Graham Dobbin: So we hidden about that background we're hearing about all these these which must have been intriguing.

00:36:36.720 --> 00:36:44.250 Graham Dobbin: negotiations to get involved with because everything's different as much as there's there's a pattern that section three we kind of know what needs to go in there, what goes in there is different.

00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:57.900 Graham Dobbin: So you're unraveling all the time now you're you're a large part of the focus a lot not I know not all of it by last part of the focus is around trademarks IP copyright all this kind of stuff talk to us about this, why some form.

00:36:58.320 --> 00:37:04.980 Michele Berdinis: yeah so, but nobody really knows the differences between them and that's not enough, we can focus a little bit on that, but.

00:37:06.870 --> 00:37:13.080 Michele Berdinis: they're the foundation of your business right, I mean lots of things are obviously you need money and stuff like that, but.

00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:26.430 Michele Berdinis: let's let's just you know take trademarks, for example, most people most businesses don't have any protected intellectual property, other than their trademark right if you're in the fashion industry that's all you got right if.

00:37:26.760 --> 00:37:40.470 Michele Berdinis: If you're in services and sales that's pretty much all you got so you want to build that on a solid foundation and typically what happens is somebody comes to me and they're starting their business.

00:37:41.070 --> 00:37:43.920 Michele Berdinis: I mean literally had a call this afternoon and it's like.

00:37:44.820 --> 00:37:52.890 Michele Berdinis: You know they use the wrong words and that's Okay, I want to copyright this when that's not a copyright thing but they'll say this is all I have, and I want to protect it.

00:37:53.340 --> 00:38:01.560 Michele Berdinis: right they have this idea, they have this brand name they've got like all these things, and I want to protect all of these things, the.

00:38:03.150 --> 00:38:16.230 Michele Berdinis: it's up to me to figure out the ways to protect these things, but a lot of things you can't protect they're not property right most ideas most.

00:38:17.100 --> 00:38:33.030 Michele Berdinis: The methodology that i'm going to use to run this business or the idea behind this business 99% of the time you can't protect that so people are going to come in and they're going to compete against you and they're going to be doing the same exact thing you.

00:38:33.030 --> 00:38:42.330 Michele Berdinis: are so you need to get your head start, you need to get in there and get in there, fast and you typically need to rely on your brand right I don't want just a widget.

00:38:43.470 --> 00:38:46.860 Michele Berdinis: I want a dog and brand image widget right.

00:38:47.520 --> 00:38:49.410 Graham Dobbin: To coin right to.

00:38:49.830 --> 00:38:52.050 Michele Berdinis: Right exactly right because they're the best.

00:38:52.080 --> 00:38:52.950 Everybody shows.

00:38:54.180 --> 00:39:01.080 Michele Berdinis: Absolutely right they're the best ones and and that's what you want to do right you want to you want to make.

00:39:01.770 --> 00:39:09.330 Michele Berdinis: The world aware of the thing that you know, so that when they're going to look for a widget they're going to buy your widget because.

00:39:09.750 --> 00:39:24.390 Michele Berdinis: Sorry, but widgets aren't there's no other way to protect widgets yeah um so yeah and it's and it's also you know the years that I spent doing, I mean i've always done IP law, but it was only like 15% of my.

00:39:24.390 --> 00:39:26.820 Michele Berdinis: practice and now it's almost 100% but it's.

00:39:28.260 --> 00:39:32.040 Michele Berdinis: Often, the very first thing I have to do is give somebody bad news.

00:39:33.060 --> 00:39:33.390 Michele Berdinis: Right.

00:39:33.450 --> 00:39:44.130 Michele Berdinis: ronnie love, I know you love that trademark but somebody else has already using it in your field, and if you use it you're going to get a cease and desist letter and it's going to hurt really bad, but.

00:39:45.990 --> 00:39:58.650 Michele Berdinis: It is so so hard to talk somebody out of it, it is you know we just talked about houses, but to people who are starting a business, it is their baby.

00:39:59.700 --> 00:40:12.570 Michele Berdinis: And they have named the baby and then you walk up to him, and you go oh that's such a cute baby what's her name and they'll say oh her name is Jane and you say.

00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:20.160 Michele Berdinis: No, no it's not you can't call her Jane what you need to call her actually Joanne.

00:40:21.990 --> 00:40:22.620 Michele Berdinis: it's like.

00:40:22.710 --> 00:40:25.200 Graham Dobbin: that's not good that's not gonna happen.

00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:27.420 Michele Berdinis: yeah no they don't want to hear.

00:40:27.420 --> 00:40:28.770 Michele Berdinis: That they don't want to do that.

00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:30.030 Michele Berdinis: And, and I.

00:40:31.230 --> 00:40:31.980 Michele Berdinis: i've gotten really.

00:40:33.060 --> 00:40:48.270 Michele Berdinis: peak different people have different personalities there's the rare person who says okay that's fine but that's very rare I can usually tell you to within a couple of minutes, how many minutes it's going to take me to talk this person on the, off the ledge.

00:40:49.290 --> 00:41:00.690 Michele Berdinis: And the stories i'm going to have to tell them and I have to put the scenario into their head you're going to go out there you're going to build everything on this brand.

00:41:01.020 --> 00:41:08.940 Michele Berdinis: Right you're going to you're going to sell the hell out of this stuff you're going to promote this you're gonna it's gonna be great and then.

00:41:09.180 --> 00:41:23.220 Michele Berdinis: And, and then you're going to get a cease and desist letter you're building on a foundation of mud, and it is not going to work and as bad as this news is today it's going to be much worse news two years from now.

00:41:23.730 --> 00:41:29.820 Graham Dobbin: yeah, I suppose, the more successful you become the more, the more this invasive for something to stop you from doing it.

00:41:30.570 --> 00:41:34.770 Michele Berdinis: Right and you're going to hear from those other people, the worst possible moment.

00:41:34.890 --> 00:41:35.430 Graham Dobbin: yeah right.

00:41:35.790 --> 00:41:39.300 Michele Berdinis: Yes, when you're getting traction because that's when they're going to notice you.

00:41:40.080 --> 00:41:41.100 Graham Dobbin: know you said that people.

00:41:41.550 --> 00:41:44.340 Graham Dobbin: People use the wrong word so we've got the trademark.

00:41:45.510 --> 00:41:49.890 Graham Dobbin: Like people say intellectual property or copyright or.

00:41:50.640 --> 00:41:55.380 Michele Berdinis: Intellectual property right is it, this is intellectual property Wednesday.

00:41:55.710 --> 00:41:58.290 Michele Berdinis: yeah it's actually my hand.

00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:03.780 Graham Dobbin: But okay i'm doing it for the listeners that that won't be able to see in Facebook later that so.

00:42:05.550 --> 00:42:13.860 Michele Berdinis: there's only four kinds of intellectual property right there's patent copyright trademark and trade secret.

00:42:14.940 --> 00:42:27.210 Michele Berdinis: If what you have doesn't fit into those things it's not property you can't own it exclusively from other people that's it those are the only things that there are.

00:42:28.260 --> 00:42:41.010 Graham Dobbin: There seems to be I mean i've seen and businesses that have spoken with there's there's this perception that if you just put the little see at the bottom of a piece of paper of copyrighted at know and everything's going to be absolutely fine.

00:42:41.430 --> 00:42:43.170 Michele Berdinis: and well, that is true.

00:42:43.290 --> 00:42:44.370 Michele Berdinis: um so.

00:42:45.510 --> 00:42:54.420 Michele Berdinis: let's talk about trade secret because it kind of doesn't fit the model that we're talking about so trademark and copyright happen all by themselves.

00:42:54.780 --> 00:43:02.820 Michele Berdinis: yeah if you write a let's say a White Paper or something like that you own the copyright to that now.

00:43:03.600 --> 00:43:13.200 Michele Berdinis: It exists, it is not a registered copyright, but you own it So what does it mean well to register it it's really inexpensive really easy to do and it's.

00:43:13.620 --> 00:43:20.190 Michele Berdinis: You know you can't Sue anybody for copyright infringement until you have a copyright registered registration.

00:43:20.700 --> 00:43:33.330 Michele Berdinis: And there's advantages to getting that before somebody infringes okay so that's great so that but yes, you absolutely should put that little notice at the bottom of things to which you actually have a copyright okay.

00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:48.480 Michele Berdinis: trademark is the same thing as soon as you start to sell something or provide a service using a particular brand you have a trademark now whether that trademark is infringing on somebody else's trademark.

00:43:48.690 --> 00:44:03.780 Michele Berdinis: is a completely different story and it's not registered so again, you know what I described to people is a common law trademark, which is what that thing is that just brings into existence by itself is like poking somebody with a toothpick.

00:44:05.370 --> 00:44:09.630 Michele Berdinis: A registered trademark is hitting him upside the head with a baseball bat.

00:44:11.250 --> 00:44:20.580 Michele Berdinis: Right, so you should register it, partly because then you'll find out sooner rather than later that it's not available, and a patent doesn't exist until the government grants you.

00:44:20.760 --> 00:44:21.030 hear.

00:44:22.410 --> 00:44:30.330 Graham Dobbin: Through your suppose when you're looking at copyright, then, and what you're saying you don't have it, or you can protect it properly until it's it's registered.

00:44:31.290 --> 00:44:43.980 Graham Dobbin: Are we talking about having to register all the words, everything the whole model of it, each one because i'm wondering what i'm wondering what the point of the of the see at the bottom of the pages, then you know.

00:44:45.270 --> 00:44:55.950 Michele Berdinis: you're putting people on notice right So if I if I put this on the circle and then you you use it in a way that infringes on my copyright, I can then register it and Sue you.

00:44:57.420 --> 00:45:03.000 Michele Berdinis: are right to tori damages, which is really nice thing to get.

00:45:05.040 --> 00:45:08.790 Graham Dobbin: Nice yeah you could change a few things and you're all good.

00:45:10.200 --> 00:45:23.490 Michele Berdinis: yeah well yeah if you have if somebody's written something, and you want to tell people, the same thing you can't just change a few words, but you can write it in your own words like recipes you can't there's no protection for a recipe.

00:45:23.970 --> 00:45:24.900 Graham Dobbin: For suppose so yep.

00:45:25.380 --> 00:45:27.480 Michele Berdinis: Right, I can just say it a different way.

00:45:30.540 --> 00:45:36.960 Graham Dobbin: Look we're going to go for a break, when we come back from the break one of the things that I really want to do here is make sure that we discussed the.

00:45:38.340 --> 00:45:40.710 Graham Dobbin: women's leadership part and it just.

00:45:41.130 --> 00:45:41.970 Graham Dobbin: sitting there with.

00:45:43.680 --> 00:45:44.730 Graham Dobbin: So passionate for you.

00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:46.740 Graham Dobbin: and

00:45:46.860 --> 00:45:57.180 Graham Dobbin: Why, you want to get involved with that in New York you're listening to grim dobbin we're on talk radio dot nyc we're on the mind behind leadership and we'll be right back after this.

00:48:19.020 --> 00:48:26.340 Graham Dobbin: Welcome back we're speaking with Michelle brokenness i'm just one of the one of one of the advertiser Michelle i'm gonna have to give a shout out to Jeff Goodman.

00:48:26.940 --> 00:48:38.700 Graham Dobbin: Because I just noticed one of the things that's happening is for anybody that doesn't know i'm dialing in and done if we still dialing nowadays i'm connecting from Sydney in Australia we're we're in lockdown.

00:48:39.720 --> 00:48:50.580 Graham Dobbin: And yet, a new york's opening up somewhere i'm watching this with with great envy, but I just thought is the Jeff is starting his tours again he does his walks i'm going to be in I don't know if you've ever been on one.

00:48:51.060 --> 00:48:57.330 Graham Dobbin: But they are absolutely outstanding so that's that's another positive that's happening this year that Jeff.

00:48:58.950 --> 00:49:09.990 Graham Dobbin: rediscovering New York his his his walking tours in New York, are beginning again, which is fantastic right, we are talking about New York we're talking about women's leadership.

00:49:10.350 --> 00:49:27.390 Graham Dobbin: I know this is something that's really i'm really passionate for you, it feels really personal for you that you want to see leadership development in general bit, but certainly especially women and in New York, I know you're involved in a lot just talk us through why that's the case.

00:49:28.350 --> 00:49:37.680 Michele Berdinis: You know I I didn't really come into my own, in that way until quite late in life, like my mid 50s and.

00:49:39.300 --> 00:49:48.810 Michele Berdinis: I had a strong actual personal bias against women professionals and unconscious bias, but nevertheless, a strong unconscious bias.

00:49:49.320 --> 00:50:01.290 Michele Berdinis: And when I found that out and realize that I started really working on myself and figuring out why I have that and where that came from and what I can do to change that and.

00:50:02.760 --> 00:50:03.210 Michele Berdinis: I.

00:50:04.440 --> 00:50:11.610 Michele Berdinis: I have found that working with other professional women and supporting each other.

00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:17.490 Michele Berdinis: Especially in the issues that tend to face women in leadership roles.

00:50:20.340 --> 00:50:26.640 Michele Berdinis: It it's helpful to me and I find it's like a mutual thing we can hold each other up.

00:50:27.030 --> 00:50:44.760 Michele Berdinis: We can call each other out when we're dealing with the imposter syndrome right, we can we can reassure people that yeah I go through that too here's how I deal with it, this is what I this is how I work on that and it can just be really helpful to have.

00:50:45.930 --> 00:50:52.470 Michele Berdinis: role models and mentor and it's just it's incredibly rewarding for me.

00:50:53.730 --> 00:50:58.740 Graham Dobbin: i'm feeling finger issues like and I we actually talked about this a lot on here.

00:51:01.290 --> 00:51:11.160 Graham Dobbin: About likes of imposter syndrome that type of thing and it tends to be when we talk about it, it tends to be renovated female leaders women leaders.

00:51:12.930 --> 00:51:15.150 Graham Dobbin: But I know for a fact that men have that as well.

00:51:16.620 --> 00:51:17.010 Michele Berdinis: We do.

00:51:17.430 --> 00:51:18.570 Graham Dobbin: tend to talk about.

00:51:21.810 --> 00:51:27.330 Michele Berdinis: I don't know, maybe, maybe they're fearful, you know, maybe even just talking about it is too scary.

00:51:29.310 --> 00:51:43.140 Michele Berdinis: And I think that's I think that is true, I think, especially you know personality types of you know, I mean if we talk about like narcissists right, I mean narcissists are the most insecure people in the world.

00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:50.760 Michele Berdinis: it's you know it's so yeah it's absolutely it's a men's issue at a women's issue.

00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:55.290 Graham Dobbin: But what are the issues, the same it's how we approach the issues, do you think.

00:51:57.360 --> 00:52:07.050 Graham Dobbin: that's actually just come to me, so this is not a trick question is Jay i'm generally thinking this through that can I wonder if they've actually got a lot of the same issues it's how we approach them this actually.

00:52:07.050 --> 00:52:10.710 Michele Berdinis: yeah maybe it's more the way it manifests right.

00:52:11.010 --> 00:52:11.490 Graham Dobbin: yeah what.

00:52:12.300 --> 00:52:22.170 Michele Berdinis: to feel like imposters they pull back right they don't go for it, they say, oh I can't do that, like in their heads, and then they kind of pull back from that.

00:52:23.040 --> 00:52:35.850 Michele Berdinis: I think when this is a overgeneralization, but when men feel insecure about that they just get more blustery right they just they just push harder.

00:52:36.240 --> 00:52:43.590 Graham Dobbin: And the reason i'm left with Michelle, there is the love because i'm thinking about this myself, but I think yeah if I move forward in a police won't feeling vulnerable, a step.

00:52:43.590 --> 00:52:47.190 Graham Dobbin: forward step forward into it right.

00:52:47.670 --> 00:52:49.170 Michele Berdinis: Sometimes every.

00:52:52.050 --> 00:52:54.240 Graham Dobbin: No, no, no regularly wrong.

00:52:55.470 --> 00:53:02.040 Graham Dobbin: Regular not sometimes regularly and we spoke a few weeks ago, we did that I did a couple of these was a Harvard.

00:53:02.520 --> 00:53:09.450 Graham Dobbin: The the the online unconscious bias test just by saying testing for all different things.

00:53:10.020 --> 00:53:11.370 Graham Dobbin: Really insightful.

00:53:11.910 --> 00:53:22.740 Michele Berdinis: It is it's fascinating it's so it's so eye opening and and you know, once you understand the methodology behind the testing, which I think is really important.

00:53:23.160 --> 00:53:33.570 Michele Berdinis: And then you take the test, and if you can face them right if you can face it, and say Okay, at least I know this now, so what am I going to do about it.

00:53:33.810 --> 00:53:49.800 Michele Berdinis: Right now that I know I have these biases what am I going to do about it, and you know, for me it manifested personally like why Why do I basically have an unconscious bias against myself and then all the unconscious biases that I have.

00:53:50.850 --> 00:53:53.760 Michele Berdinis: For other people, I mean racial biases.

00:53:54.990 --> 00:53:58.740 Michele Berdinis: Just it's it was scary it was really scary and.

00:53:59.790 --> 00:54:04.680 Michele Berdinis: The only good news is you can't work on that until you know that.

00:54:04.740 --> 00:54:05.850 Graham Dobbin: It exists.

00:54:05.970 --> 00:54:11.670 Michele Berdinis: yeah and so you realize it exists, then you start in your head you say why did I think that.

00:54:12.420 --> 00:54:26.430 Michele Berdinis: Why did I just have that idea about that person or Why did I think that or Why did I make that generalization ah it's because I have an unconscious bias okay so stop doing that, like take that away go back and think about.

00:54:26.430 --> 00:54:38.610 Graham Dobbin: This this, this is not a natural thing that we work on our brains filter through experiences through what's happened in the past, your memories two things that we've said or seen or TV programs we've watched how our families our.

00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:47.340 Graham Dobbin: Children think that's just an instinctive thing that happens and there's not necessarily anything else behind it.

00:54:48.210 --> 00:55:03.210 Michele Berdinis: No, I think it is instinctive I think I think I think most of the problems left facing the world are things where those attributes really served us well 10,000 years ago on the Serengeti.

00:55:04.530 --> 00:55:14.100 Michele Berdinis: right if you came across somebody that you've never seen before, or doesn't look like you, they probably weren't going to kill you right so that was really good like.

00:55:14.610 --> 00:55:21.780 Michele Berdinis: The clan and putting the clan in the group that you're in the head of everything else it just doesn't work very well now.

00:55:22.170 --> 00:55:30.810 Michele Berdinis: it's and it's wrong it's morally wrong now, so I think it is, I think that's what we have to do we have to face these things.

00:55:31.230 --> 00:55:40.830 Michele Berdinis: It doesn't make you a bad and and moral person to have unconscious biases it just means you have to think about them and take those into account before you talk and before you act.

00:55:41.460 --> 00:55:49.860 Graham Dobbin: And we're coming towards the end of the show i'm slightly appreciative of cell, because I think there's so much more that we can talk about women's leadership, one of the things that i've noticed here.

00:55:50.310 --> 00:55:52.470 Graham Dobbin: Is the difference in attitude.

00:55:53.430 --> 00:56:04.830 Graham Dobbin: Towards a number of different things and it's really interesting where there will be especially in Australia other things there's nothing else behind it it's just it's the experience, but things will be said that that that horrifying me.

00:56:05.400 --> 00:56:23.280 Graham Dobbin: And i've got i've constantly got to reset myself got like this is just how is it there's nothing major behind there, and you know the thought process evolves and so looking at it even you know were divided by a common language of English again.

00:56:24.420 --> 00:56:27.240 Graham Dobbin: So all that getting put into the pot.

00:56:28.500 --> 00:56:39.720 Graham Dobbin: I think it's really important that we focus, even if they are the they even if they are the same issues that we focus on how they manifest themselves and how we approach them which i'm so sorry that we've come to the end.

00:56:40.200 --> 00:56:55.200 Graham Dobbin: A be absolutely fascinating I love you to come on the show again, and I promise, will it will kick off with the women leadership stuff as well, and thank you, my billing legal i'm Michele bed Venus Thank you to Sam leibovitz for.

00:56:56.490 --> 00:57:07.230 Graham Dobbin: for keeping us all right in the technical end behind all this and join us again next Tuesday for PM Eastern for the mind behind leadership have a great weekend.

00:57:09.120 --> 00:57:09.660 Michele Berdinis: Thank you.

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