The Conscious Consultant Hour

Thursday, March 11, 2021
Facebook Live Video from 2021/03/11 - Listening to Ecstasy

Facebook Live Video from 2021/03/11 - Listening to Ecstasy


2021/03/11 - Listening to Ecstasy

[NEW EPISODE] Listening to Ecstasy

This week Sam welcomes Psychoanalyst, Mental Health Counselor, & Author, Charles Wininger.


Charles Wininger, LP, LMHC, is a licensed psychoanalyst and mental health counselor specializing in relationships and communication skills. Recognized as “The Love Doctor” by the New York Times & Newsday, he’s been treating couples and individuals in his Manhattan and Brooklyn offices for 30 years. He sits on the Board of Advisors of the Psychedelic Education and Continuing Care Program at the Center for Optimal Living in New York.


We will be discussing his new book, Listening to Ecstasy : The Transformative Power of MDMA

Tune in for this enlightening conversation at or watch the Facebook Video by Going Here.

Show Blocks

Segment 1

Sam starts with a quote from a book called Everyday Awakening about forgiving our mistakes and enjoying life rather than trying to reach a false ideal. Today’s guest Charles Wininger explains how his interest in MDMA began, and why he decided to research its therapeutic application. Sam and Charles discuss the diverse ways that some psychedelics have been used and its potential, specifically in the treatment of PTSD. Both Charles and Sam are supporters of the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS).

Segment 2

At age 40 Charles realised that he wanted to be a therapist. Prior he was an executive recruiter and while he was successful he realised that it was not a career he wanted to continue for the rest of his life. In his practice Charles has noticed an alienation as well as a lack of communication between couples even prior to the pandemic. He attributes this to the amount of time we spend living behind a screen. When the psychedelic renaissance began, Charles and his wife decided to host potluck dinners in order to support the MAPS community. His book Listening to Ecstasy : The Transformative Power of MDMA, Charles talks about his experience with his wife as they navigated through the psychedelic community. Sam notes that within the psychedelic community there are two camps, one looks into lab created drugs while the other studies the natural ones. Charles is interested in MDMA specifically because of the impact it has had on his life and has respect for all medicines because of the benefits they share.

Segment 3

Charles believes that we are in the middle of an emotional crisis. He shares his own personal experience with MDMA and how it has acted as an “emotional glue” when resolving their conflicts. Sam asks if there were any past experiences that they have held onto and allowed to harm their present relationship. Charles shares their challenges with projection and self love. After taking MDMA or other substances, it is important to focus on integrating the lessons learned into your life. One of the ways that Charles has learned to integrate those experiences in meditation. It is because of these experiences that Charles wrote his book and guides others as they open up to the therapeutic benefits of MDMA.

Segment 4

Charles answers a question about the therapy. It is a temporary use, not long term. Often 2-4 sessions in between sober talk therapy is enough. He calls it a “gateway drug” because it is a gateway to the heart and it reveals some of your deepest and darkest thoughts. He believes that many of people’s problems are ego focussed. With MDMA and your ego temporarily dissolved, you see the world in a radically different way. You can find Charles’ book Living in Ecstasy on Amazon and Simon & Schuster. Also visit his website


00:00:28.200 -->  00:00:38.160 Sam Liebowitz: Good afternoon my conscious co creators, welcome to another edition of the conscious consultant our awakening humanity.

00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:52.260 Sam Liebowitz: I am very, very pleased, as always, that you are here with me today we've got a fascinating show in store for you today when i've actually been really looking forward to, since I got my guest booked on today.

00:00:53.280 --> 00:01:00.570 Sam Liebowitz: But we're going to start off a little bit differently today, yes, I know you're used to my quotes of the day, from the universe, and from Abraham but.

00:01:00.990 --> 00:01:10.950 Sam Liebowitz: it's a new day a new dawn and I decided to today would be a good day to try something different so i'm actually going to read from my book, yes, everyday awakening.

00:01:11.910 --> 00:01:20.220 Sam Liebowitz: I hope you'll forgive me the indulgence, but I just thought that the the the sections in the book are nice and short.

00:01:20.850 --> 00:01:36.690 Sam Liebowitz: Many people have been giving me some really great responses to it, so I thought, instead of reading my quotes of the day, like I usually do to read, just a short section from the book and i'm going to start with the very first one, which is entitled, we are perfectly imperfect.

00:01:38.010 --> 00:01:46.770 Sam Liebowitz: It is easy to fall into the trap of thinking that there was something wrong with us it's not unusual to feel that we are broken and needs to be fixed.

00:01:47.580 --> 00:02:04.680 Sam Liebowitz: That is not the truth, actually, we are perfect exactly the way we are This does not mean we we do not desire to do better with it is really about is accepting ourselves exactly the way we are without judgment or criticism.

00:02:05.880 --> 00:02:16.830 Sam Liebowitz: We all feel not good enough, we all feel unworthy at least until we do our work, the thing is that's usually our greatest gift.

00:02:17.430 --> 00:02:25.530 Sam Liebowitz: It may seem counterintuitive yet the very things we are trying so hard to change our greatest assets.

00:02:26.370 --> 00:02:38.970 Sam Liebowitz: We just have to learn how to reframe and reinterpret that part of our lives, our faults and our flaws, are what makes us human they make us relatable to other people.

00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:53.940 Sam Liebowitz: We can empathize with each other's pain sure we can learn to do better, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to improve in fact working on ourselves is the greatest work of a lifetime.

00:02:54.660 --> 00:03:07.650 Sam Liebowitz: Yet we don't have to judge ourselves in the process or others, for that matter, we are not here to beat ourselves up or pick at every little mistake we make.

00:03:08.070 --> 00:03:14.880 Sam Liebowitz: It is primarily through our mistakes that we learn and grow, there is nothing wrong with making a mistake.

00:03:15.420 --> 00:03:27.660 Sam Liebowitz: let's so let's find a way to stop marinating in our misery and see ourselves as being perfectly imperfect to celebrate our mistakes as much as we celebrate our successes.

00:03:28.620 --> 00:03:40.200 Sam Liebowitz: let's not just be be listen let's be not just a little kinder to ourselves, but a lot kinder life is meant to be joyful not painful and demeaning.

00:03:41.580 --> 00:03:51.120 Sam Liebowitz: let's let our light shine, even though the dark spots are visible being real is a lot easier than living up to some false ideal.

00:03:52.080 --> 00:04:02.100 Sam Liebowitz: So, can you start to cut yourself some slack and not be so hard on yourself starting today hmm so that's the very first.

00:04:02.700 --> 00:04:10.860 Sam Liebowitz: section in the book everyday awakening available on Amazon and all over the place, and I just thought I would start sharing.

00:04:11.820 --> 00:04:19.110 Sam Liebowitz: I mean there's 126 sections in the book so it's going to take a couple of years to get through it, but I just thought I would start sharing that.

00:04:19.500 --> 00:04:39.570 Sam Liebowitz: And I hope my loyal listeners yes patty I see you on the Facebook live, thank you for joining us, but I just hope my loyal listeners appreciate it, let me know, of course, your comments your questions and yeah I think this is a big lesson for all of us like we we we we are perfectly imperfect.

00:04:41.250 --> 00:04:47.850 Sam Liebowitz: And just because we feel like we want to do better, we know we can feel better we know we can.

00:04:49.980 --> 00:04:56.310 Sam Liebowitz: achieve more do more, or just be better in our own skin yes.

00:04:57.690 --> 00:05:11.430 Sam Liebowitz: And that does not mean there's anything wrong with this, and that does not mean that we are not perfect, indeed i'm a big believer that this whole universe in life is perfect, we just don't have the perspective to see that.

00:05:12.690 --> 00:05:13.830 Sam Liebowitz: perfection so.

00:05:15.180 --> 00:05:17.160 Sam Liebowitz: Just something to think about.

00:05:18.450 --> 00:05:25.410 Sam Liebowitz: Think about its do on it, let it sit with you and see how that resonates with you and I actually think it was a pretty good.

00:05:26.610 --> 00:05:37.680 Sam Liebowitz: Section for what we're going to be talking about today and who we're going to be talking to, so it is my pleasure to welcome to the show psychoanalyst mental health counselor and author Charles winokur.

00:05:39.150 --> 00:05:40.560 Sam Liebowitz: Take it the last name right Charles.

00:05:41.130 --> 00:05:42.660 Charley Wininger: I pronounce it winter.

00:05:43.110 --> 00:05:51.840 Sam Liebowitz: Winter ah OK winning here so Charles is a licensed psychoanalyst and mental health counselor specializing in relationships and communication skills.

00:05:52.110 --> 00:06:01.770 Sam Liebowitz: he's recognized as the love doctor by the New York Times and newsday he's been treating couples and individuals in his Manhattan and brooklyn office for over 30 years.

00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:12.570 Sam Liebowitz: He sits on the board of advisors of the psychedelic education and continuing care program at the Center for optimal living in New York City yeah i've heard so many wonderful things about the Center.

00:06:13.200 --> 00:06:21.960 Sam Liebowitz: For the past 20 years Charlie has been a member of the multiple in disciplinary Association for psychedelic studies or, better known as maps.

00:06:22.290 --> 00:06:33.420 Sam Liebowitz: Which funds research into the use of mdma as well as other substances for treating such things as ptsd social anxiety depression and other elements.

00:06:33.900 --> 00:06:42.360 Sam Liebowitz: As a former hippie of the 60s he's lived through multiple areas of the psychedelic culture and carries with him the same spirit of peace and love today.

00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:53.850 Sam Liebowitz: And we're going to talk a lot about his journey and his recent new book listening to Ecstasy the transformative power of mdma well, welcome to the conscious consultant our Charlie.

00:06:54.630 --> 00:06:57.210 Charley Wininger: Thank you, Sam it's great to be here.

00:06:57.330 --> 00:07:01.950 Sam Liebowitz: Wonderful to have you it's wonderful to have a fellow traveler, as they say.

00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:16.980 Sam Liebowitz: So okay you're a child of the 60s um how did you first get introduced to these I don't know how shall we call the mind altering substances hard altering substances, I mean.

00:07:17.310 --> 00:07:26.160 Sam Liebowitz: What kind of brought you sort of into this world and and why did it ultimately become something so important to you.

00:07:27.390 --> 00:07:35.640 Charley Wininger: Well, I got swept along in the 60s, with a bad wave of psychedelic revolution and.

00:07:37.350 --> 00:07:53.220 Charley Wininger: was found myself experimenting with various compounds and LSD and mushrooms and mescaline and I they did me some good at the time I didn't really know how to work with them.

00:07:53.910 --> 00:08:07.380 Charley Wininger: But they seem to have a message which is one particular experience when when I was coming down from the masculine it seemed to be saying to me come back sometime we've more to show you.

00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:21.630 Charley Wininger: And I never forgot that so I came back in the 80s and the 90s, and especially in this century, when I really learned about mdma.

00:08:22.770 --> 00:08:39.300 Charley Wininger: And how, when used correctly and only when used correctly, it can be of great benefit to my personal growth and to my relationships and to my outlook on the world.

00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:47.160 Sam Liebowitz: yeah yeah yeah so you're a little bit older than me not a lot, but a little bit older than me and I kind of feel like people of.

00:08:47.490 --> 00:09:02.640 Sam Liebowitz: My generation above like I kind of missed out on the the club rave scene, I was already like working and busy but, like you, and high school, I was exposed to a lot of things like that, and it was very, very common at the time.

00:09:04.500 --> 00:09:12.630 Sam Liebowitz: And yeah it was interesting because before I had my own experiences, I was very much a sort of a nerdy little kid.

00:09:13.380 --> 00:09:25.500 Sam Liebowitz: And then, after my experiences it's all of a sudden, I started exploring the more creative sides of myself and and started sort of opening up and relating to people differently.

00:09:26.130 --> 00:09:38.850 Sam Liebowitz: i'm Aaron while I can now look back and say oh like there was a lot of escapism in there, that was me trying to like get away from the what I didn't like about reality.

00:09:39.510 --> 00:09:46.770 Sam Liebowitz: Yet at the same time, there were still some deep learning, there was some shifts there was some something that was happening underneath.

00:09:48.690 --> 00:09:59.640 Sam Liebowitz: Yet now, when I look at things and they see this resurgence of of interest in it and and it's really quite fascinating it over the last.

00:10:00.930 --> 00:10:12.360 Sam Liebowitz: You know 5678 910 years that really there's such a renewed interest in the healing properties of all of these substances, and not just the healing properties, but also the.

00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:31.620 Sam Liebowitz: ability of the some of these things to enhance our creativity and to actually help us to live better that it's not always about having to deal with trauma that we're going to talk about that, but it can also be about just living a better life.

00:10:32.250 --> 00:10:52.860 Charley Wininger: Well, yes, and what I have found and it's sort of been the easiest lesson of my life is that what what we call recreational use of drugs, does not have to be frivolous better word for it, I think, is celebration will use.

00:10:54.480 --> 00:11:09.480 Charley Wininger: And I have learned that fun and play and joy can, in themselves, potentially be transformational experiences.

00:11:10.620 --> 00:11:19.200 Sam Liebowitz: Absolutely absolutely I actually I I didn't read today but there's one short section my book that talks about how play can be deep work.

00:11:19.650 --> 00:11:24.750 Charley Wininger: Yes, exactly exactly and what I love about.

00:11:25.950 --> 00:11:26.400 Charley Wininger: A.

00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:30.210 Charley Wininger: Chemicals Oh, I prefer the word medicine.

00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:52.770 Charley Wininger: Nice mdma is that it's incredibly versatile it can be used, I had an all night rave like you just mentioned the dance the night away in wild abandon with 1000 other people, or it can be all the way over, on the other side of the spectrum can be used in clinical trials right now.

00:11:52.800 --> 00:11:56.010 Charley Wininger: Right to treat post traumatic stress disorder.

00:11:56.040 --> 00:12:09.450 Charley Wininger: ptsd for people who are in horrible shape from war or sexual abuse and it's healing them so so well that, at the current.

00:12:12.090 --> 00:12:21.390 Charley Wininger: The current rate of research mdma is going to be a prescription medication by 2023.

00:12:21.990 --> 00:12:30.690 Sam Liebowitz: Now okay another cup just another couple of years did it, I think I recall hearing that it achieved what's called breakthrough status by the FDA.

00:12:30.990 --> 00:12:39.540 Charley Wininger: that's right that's right, which means that they're simply fast tracking the research because it's having such a phenomenal results, especially with veterans.

00:12:40.470 --> 00:12:53.160 Charley Wininger: And is a terrible problem in this country with with veterans who suffer from ptsd 22 veterans a day take their own life in this country.

00:12:53.310 --> 00:12:55.230 Charley Wininger: yeah So yes.

00:12:56.490 --> 00:13:02.760 Charley Wininger: Anything that can treat this is life saving medicine and that's why it's being fast tracked.

00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:17.700 Sam Liebowitz: yeah yes and and and and maps the multiple multi multi disciplinary Association for psychedelic studies, it has been at the forefront of all of that research they've done tremendous with raising funds and.

00:13:18.090 --> 00:13:23.340 Sam Liebowitz: And and really putting a lot of effort and lobbying for it, so I really applaud them.

00:13:24.540 --> 00:13:32.760 Sam Liebowitz: And and i've been to the horizons conference, which you know mutually many of their research is present there.

00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:46.260 Sam Liebowitz: You know let's let's I want to take a break, at this point, and when we come back, I want to talk a little bit more about sort of your your sort of professional life and then sort of how.

00:13:47.490 --> 00:13:57.030 Sam Liebowitz: You know, being involved with this kind of research, like how that may have affected sort of your professional life and sort of where we see things going and then getting to your book from there okay.

00:13:57.390 --> 00:14:15.510 Sam Liebowitz: Great wonderful so everybody, please stay tuned you're listening to the conscious consultant our awakening humanity my guest this hour is Charlie winter author of the book listening to Ecstasy the transformative power of mdma and we will be right back after this.

00:17:15.030 --> 00:17:22.260 Sam Liebowitz: and welcome back to the conscious consultant our awakening humanity, we do this every Thursday 12 noon to 1pm Eastern.

00:17:22.560 --> 00:17:31.560 Sam Liebowitz: right here on talk radio dot nyc and we're all over Facebook live and on all the podcasting platforms so look for us if you want to catch any back episodes.

00:17:32.010 --> 00:17:46.830 Sam Liebowitz: And we're talking today with Charlie winter now Charlie you're a psychoanalyst you was that, like your profession, like when you got out of college, did you decide to become a psychoanalyst at a young age or is that something you can't went into later I.

00:17:46.860 --> 00:17:53.640 Charley Wininger: came into the realization that I wanted to be a therapist at age 40.

00:17:54.210 --> 00:17:58.110 Charley Wininger: Oh middle of my life, it was a midlife crisis.

00:17:58.560 --> 00:17:59.190 Charley Wininger: I had done.

00:17:59.250 --> 00:18:08.910 Charley Wininger: Everything and that you can imagine, from driving a cab to being a salesperson to being an executive recruiter and that's what I was doing.

00:18:09.630 --> 00:18:20.130 Charley Wininger: Through the early 90s actually what through the the late 80s actually making more money than I knew what to do with but feeling kind of empty inside.

00:18:20.850 --> 00:18:37.230 Charley Wininger: And realized at age 40 that this is not how I wanted to live my life and move there must be more to life than this, so I decided to become a therapist and never looked back, and it was the best decision in my life.

00:18:37.620 --> 00:18:49.170 Sam Liebowitz: wow wow yeah that's not I mean people do change careers and they change jobs and stuff throughout life but that's a pretty radical change so that that's pretty brave of you and.

00:18:50.190 --> 00:19:01.500 Sam Liebowitz: Over the last so it's been What about 30 years a little over 30 years that you've been doing it um have you seen a difference in the people who come to see you in terms of.

00:19:02.010 --> 00:19:13.290 Sam Liebowitz: I mean are people just dealing with like the same fundamental issues or has there been any sort of intensification or change and the kinds of challenges people come to see you for.

00:19:13.710 --> 00:19:16.920 Charley Wininger: there's an intensification Sam in the.

00:19:18.300 --> 00:19:21.780 Charley Wininger: In the degree of alienation and loneliness.

00:19:22.800 --> 00:19:28.050 Charley Wininger: Within individuals and the lack of good communication between couples.

00:19:30.390 --> 00:19:31.080 Charley Wininger: So.

00:19:32.220 --> 00:19:44.940 Charley Wininger: i've seen an increase in that and that's due to the world, as we know it now where people spend their lives behind screens even, of course, before the pandemic.

00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:53.340 Charley Wininger: And don't really know how to honestly and authentically speak to others.

00:19:54.660 --> 00:19:56.670 Charley Wininger: And so that's where I come in.

00:19:57.120 --> 00:20:07.230 Sam Liebowitz: gotcha gotcha or even just be present with another human being we're so stuck on these little screens on our phones that we're not really seeing the person that's right in front of us.

00:20:07.290 --> 00:20:08.310 Charley Wininger: that's right yeah.

00:20:08.670 --> 00:20:16.350 Sam Liebowitz: um when did you decide to sort of look into you know work with maps and work for the Center of optimal living like.

00:20:17.010 --> 00:20:30.060 Sam Liebowitz: focus on on on bringing you know from your I guess stuff from your personal experience that kind of try and find a way to combine it now with your new professional experience of being a psychoanalyst and the mental health counselor.

00:20:31.110 --> 00:20:39.510 Charley Wininger: Well, yes i've done my most of my growth in my life from being in my own therapy.

00:20:40.800 --> 00:20:43.410 Charley Wininger: and also from the use of psychedelics.

00:20:44.760 --> 00:20:50.730 Charley Wininger: mdma LSD psilocybin mushrooms I Alaska and.

00:20:52.620 --> 00:20:58.050 Charley Wininger: They both feed into each other, they both potentially eight the other.

00:20:58.560 --> 00:21:08.220 Charley Wininger: yeah and so when these new psychedelic Renaissance began at the turn of this century, I decided, I wanted to be a part of it.

00:21:08.790 --> 00:21:11.610 Charley Wininger: And my wife and I decided to start hosting.

00:21:11.850 --> 00:21:13.890 Charley Wininger: potluck dinners here at our home.

00:21:15.030 --> 00:21:16.920 Charley Wininger: For the maps community.

00:21:17.280 --> 00:21:30.360 Charley Wininger: Here in bra okay and NGOs have grown exponentially, the first year, we had a dozen people in our home, now we have about 90 to 100 people over and over for.

00:21:34.110 --> 00:21:34.590 Sam Liebowitz: A pretty big.

00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:45.480 Charley Wininger: And we've helped them grow the the maps Community here in New York and have met wonderful wonderful people along the way.

00:21:45.810 --> 00:21:56.250 Sam Liebowitz: yeah absolutely absolutely and um, and so what was your inspiration for writing your book living tech listening to ecstasy.

00:21:57.990 --> 00:22:17.880 Charley Wininger: Well, listening to Ecstasy is my heartfelt story about how my wife and I ventured into this forbidden world of drug users in the early 2000s in New York and found that world to be enchanted.

00:22:20.040 --> 00:22:27.810 Charley Wininger: We found the most wonderful people you'd ever want to meet you know in school you're taught don't hang out with people do drugs it's the wrong crowd.

00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:44.580 Charley Wininger: Right well, at least in my experience and shelley's experience of the people who do psychedelic drugs are really the right crowd and we have learned they become our best friends, they are open hearted open minded smart.

00:22:46.170 --> 00:22:56.520 Charley Wininger: well educated people for the most part, who are explorers and its really opened our lives to friendship and fun and freedom.

00:22:56.790 --> 00:22:57.720 Charley Wininger: and has.

00:22:57.750 --> 00:23:11.640 Charley Wininger: helped us learn how to navigate going from middle age, which we were when we began, I shelley and I when we began his journey 20 years ago and now into a senior.

00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:16.350 Charley Wininger: status and we've learned that these medicines can help.

00:23:16.770 --> 00:23:25.470 Sam Liebowitz: yeah I saw on your website a quote, that I absolutely loved it said, the best part of the psychedelic Community isn't the psychedelics it's the Community.

00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:28.530 Charley Wininger: Yes, exactly exactly.

00:23:28.770 --> 00:23:42.300 Sam Liebowitz: um i'm curious, who are the luminaries in the field that inspire you like like who you know when you look at their work and you listen to to what they their insights on on this like really lift you up.

00:23:43.500 --> 00:23:44.880 Charley Wininger: I love that question, Sam.

00:23:46.170 --> 00:23:49.080 Charley Wininger: rick doblin is a personal hero of mine i'm.

00:23:49.230 --> 00:23:50.370 Sam Liebowitz: proud that was.

00:23:50.730 --> 00:23:53.280 Charley Wininger: That he showed up at my book, launch in November.

00:23:55.410 --> 00:24:02.940 Charley Wininger: Sasha shogun the person who brought mdma into the world in the late 70s.

00:24:04.080 --> 00:24:14.340 Charley Wininger: As also, of course, been a big influence on my life, because it was so brave the experiments and say that that's that he began and.

00:24:15.930 --> 00:24:19.200 Charley Wininger: goes and also Terence McKenna.

00:24:19.650 --> 00:24:22.110 Charley Wininger: yeah who is certainly.

00:24:23.550 --> 00:24:27.060 Charley Wininger: A luminary Sasha shogun is no longer with us, and neither is Terrence.

00:24:27.090 --> 00:24:27.810 Sam Liebowitz: Terrence yeah.

00:24:28.410 --> 00:24:36.210 Charley Wininger: But he is endlessly inspirational and and, of course, his talks can be accessed online.

00:24:36.510 --> 00:24:42.690 Sam Liebowitz: Yes, yeah there's a tremendous amount, and you can find on YouTube for both of them um.

00:24:43.710 --> 00:24:47.850 Sam Liebowitz: Within the psychedelic Community there's a bit of them.

00:24:48.930 --> 00:25:02.850 Sam Liebowitz: I kind of feel well there may be multiple sections of it, but I would say this kind of sort of two main sections one which is really looking at sort of the medicinal.

00:25:03.900 --> 00:25:13.650 Sam Liebowitz: And i'm going to say that the modern medicinal psychedelics the things like LSD mdma thing things that really like created in labs and then there are those who are looking at.

00:25:14.010 --> 00:25:21.870 Sam Liebowitz: The more natural medicines like you mentioned suicide and I lost I ibogaine you know things like that um.

00:25:22.650 --> 00:25:42.390 Sam Liebowitz: And they both kind of approach things differently, like the way maps the protocol that maps has developed for doing mdma therapy is is very, very different from the way, many people approach or the the way we've adapted i'll say the traditional cultures that work with these plant medicines.

00:25:42.870 --> 00:25:43.500 Charley Wininger: isn't yes.

00:25:43.890 --> 00:25:55.680 Charley Wininger: Yes, it's different and there's a much discussion in the Community, about how do we reconcile these differences, how do we honor the traditions.

00:25:56.610 --> 00:26:23.820 Charley Wininger: As we adapt them to the North American way of doing things without ripping them off and without adulterating them, this is of course of large concern, and I am really interested in, mostly in mdma because it's made such a fundamental difference in my life and and in my marriage.

00:26:25.140 --> 00:26:43.800 Charley Wininger: And so i'm not so much concerned about the difference between the plant medicines and the chemicals, because I think those differences aren't as important as the effects that these medicines that all these medicines have on our consciousness.

00:26:44.940 --> 00:26:46.740 Charley Wininger: All these medicines in my.

00:26:46.740 --> 00:26:52.800 Charley Wininger: Experience at least help when used correctly on only when used correctly.

00:26:53.820 --> 00:27:21.900 Charley Wininger: can help one open their heart open their mind radically alter their priorities in life to really honor nature honor the other honor other people honor one's love interests ones romantic partner and honor oneself or one's own soul is whether its own emotional makeup.

00:27:22.890 --> 00:27:34.080 Sam Liebowitz: So so you're a professional right your son, in a way that's sort of a scientist, do you consider yourself someone who is spiritual or just somebody who's enlightened.

00:27:34.740 --> 00:27:35.460 haha.

00:27:36.540 --> 00:27:39.960 Charley Wininger: Oh well, I don't think i'm enlightened.

00:27:41.310 --> 00:27:44.490 Charley Wininger: get there, I think, give me two or three more lifetimes and i'll get okay.

00:27:46.080 --> 00:27:51.840 Charley Wininger: I think of myself as spiritually oriented, as well as psychologically oriented.

00:27:52.860 --> 00:27:57.300 Charley Wininger: Because they all have to do with soul, they all have to do with heart.

00:27:59.040 --> 00:28:11.430 Sam Liebowitz: yeah absolutely absolutely and and one of the things that I see with with the power around mdma is it's really about bringing people back to their heart.

00:28:12.180 --> 00:28:27.270 Sam Liebowitz: Yes, and I imagine in your practice you've seen how when you're dealing with trauma and dealing with sort of the real challenges of modern life that most people probably i'm guessing don't really feel safe to be in their heart.

00:28:28.110 --> 00:28:35.400 Charley Wininger: Correct we've build walls around us and around our hearts to protect ourselves from all the.

00:28:36.540 --> 00:28:42.870 Charley Wininger: slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and and all the the.

00:28:44.310 --> 00:28:44.610 Charley Wininger: The.

00:28:46.470 --> 00:29:09.300 Charley Wininger: challenges of living in this modern world, and you know so we've shut out to protect ourselves we've we've we've closed our doors and our windows and isolated ourselves and have suffered from that so mdma is one tool to help us reopen in a safe way huh yeah.

00:29:09.360 --> 00:29:14.700 Sam Liebowitz: Beautiful beautiful all right there's so much in what you just said that I really wanted to dive in deeper.

00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:25.710 Sam Liebowitz: We do have to take another break when we come back, I would just want to hear a little bit more if you're willing to share on your personal experience you mentioned about your relationship with your wife and how the mdma.

00:29:26.070 --> 00:29:47.550 Sam Liebowitz: helped you with that and and about and I would like to also talk a bit more about why it's so necessary today, and I mean today in the modern world in 2021 and especially today in a pandemic, and soon, hopefully in a post pandemic world and and sort of this.

00:29:48.900 --> 00:29:56.100 Sam Liebowitz: and how it affects our relationship, you mentioned with other people and with nature, I would like to explore that a little bit more as well okay.

00:29:56.280 --> 00:29:56.970 Charley Wininger: sounds great.

00:29:57.450 --> 00:30:04.830 Sam Liebowitz: Wonderful so of course if anyone listening, I see you both tonight and patty on the Facebook live, if you have questions around this.

00:30:05.160 --> 00:30:09.180 Sam Liebowitz: Please ask your questions on the Facebook live post them right in the chat i'll get to them.

00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:23.700 Sam Liebowitz: And please stay tuned you listen, you are listening to the conscious consultant our awakening humanity, we do this every Thursday 12 noon to 1pm Eastern right here on talk radio dot nyc and we will be right back after this.

00:30:25.050 --> 00:30:28.170 Listening to talk radio nyc.

00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:27.180 Sam Liebowitz: and welcome back to the conscious consultant our awakening humanity we're talking this hour with Charlie when injure author of the book listening to Ecstasy the transformative power of mdma.

00:33:29.100 --> 00:33:35.790 Sam Liebowitz: Charlie so you mentioned in the last segment how working with mdma has helped you a lot with your relationship with your wife and now.

00:33:36.090 --> 00:33:42.750 Sam Liebowitz: And i'm married and I have done work with my wife as well she's a psycho therapist she does things like the FDR and somatic.

00:33:43.710 --> 00:33:55.710 Sam Liebowitz: therapies, and so I know the power of of working with your partner how has your using mdma been a transformative tool for your relationship with your partner with your wife.

00:33:56.730 --> 00:33:58.260 Charley Wininger: Thanks for asking.

00:33:59.550 --> 00:34:01.770 Sam Liebowitz: I like to I like to give people real world examples.

00:34:01.830 --> 00:34:07.020 Charley Wininger: Good good okay I because I do believe that we are living in the midst of a relationship crisis.

00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:08.760 Charley Wininger: and

00:34:10.170 --> 00:34:27.600 Charley Wininger: it's so much alienation and misunderstanding between men and women, and between all committed partners so much miscommunication my wife and I have found that mdma can act like a kind of emotional superglue.

00:34:28.650 --> 00:34:39.870 Charley Wininger: or for our relationship and other people that we know it found the same it it's the chemical of connection it.

00:34:39.900 --> 00:34:40.770 Sam Liebowitz: really helps you.

00:34:41.100 --> 00:34:58.080 Charley Wininger: connect with yourself and with a partner, and it does so by flooding the system with it helps release your own serotonin and oxytocin and all those feel good chemicals that make you feel safe.

00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:01.260 Charley Wininger: The feeling of immense well being.

00:35:01.740 --> 00:35:17.370 Charley Wininger: So you feel safe enough to at least during that time that you're high drop your defenses open your heart and communicate on a deeper level with your partner, without the normal fears and without the normal barriers.

00:35:17.670 --> 00:35:26.310 Charley Wininger: Right and speaking to you, to your partner as if that partner is actually an ally, instead of an adversary.

00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:28.620 Charley Wininger: And so.

00:35:30.270 --> 00:35:35.700 Charley Wininger: These that they're researching now starting research with mdma with couples.

00:35:36.870 --> 00:35:41.640 Charley Wininger: And I look forward to the time that I can give mdma to my couples.

00:35:42.510 --> 00:35:45.660 Charley Wininger: As I be able to do, six months worth of therapy in the day.

00:35:45.870 --> 00:35:59.490 Sam Liebowitz: yeah yes i've heard that a lot from people that like working with these these substances it's like speeds up the therapeutic process like you know 100 fold thousandfold some.

00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:16.590 Sam Liebowitz: um was there anything that kind of came up when the two of you were working with this together, that really surprised you like something some challenge from your past that you had no clue was still affecting how you relate to people today.

00:36:17.100 --> 00:36:17.880 Charley Wininger: Oh sure.

00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:25.800 Charley Wininger: I had a challenge of really though that psychological term is projection.

00:36:26.070 --> 00:36:28.980 Charley Wininger: Where I would inject my mother on to shelley's.

00:36:30.090 --> 00:36:31.080 Charley Wininger: The poor dear.

00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:34.050 Charley Wininger: My poor wife.

00:36:36.330 --> 00:36:48.360 Charley Wininger: And I my own psychotherapy and also my work with these medicines and mdma is helped me realize that okay that's that's that's my mother i'm reacting to who's.

00:36:48.540 --> 00:36:50.430 Charley Wininger: long gone that's not shelley.

00:36:51.570 --> 00:37:01.710 Charley Wininger: And I don't have to be this way anymore shelly also has learned how to love herself more from.

00:37:02.220 --> 00:37:06.180 Charley Wininger: Of mdma and she speaks very openly about.

00:37:06.540 --> 00:37:16.620 Charley Wininger: Her struggling with her weight issues, although I think he's gorgeous and fine to me, but she struggles with these issues and.

00:37:18.150 --> 00:37:22.680 Charley Wininger: mdma has helped her accept herself, as she is.

00:37:23.040 --> 00:37:41.010 Charley Wininger: and love herself, as she is and, as you know, you were saying about being in perfectly perfect and you know she doesn't necessarily give up on the idea of improving her life and improving herself, but he comes from a place more now of self acceptance and self love.

00:37:42.180 --> 00:37:44.610 Charley Wininger: which makes her happier and.

00:37:45.750 --> 00:37:47.760 Sam Liebowitz: And when she's happy or you're more.

00:37:47.970 --> 00:37:50.310 Sam Liebowitz: Having more fun being around her right.

00:37:50.370 --> 00:37:52.680 Charley Wininger: exactly right yes that's right yeah.

00:37:53.550 --> 00:38:05.040 Sam Liebowitz: Absolutely absolutely I really want to touch upon integration, while we still have time to talk about it because integration is really what i've learned.

00:38:05.640 --> 00:38:22.530 Sam Liebowitz: From people is is it's really the the most key factor I mean it's one thing that you go and you work with some substance, you have this peak experience, but if there's not the work to integrate that into your normal day to day life it's almost like a wasted experience.

00:38:22.770 --> 00:38:33.720 Charley Wininger: that's right it's the real question is, how do you turn these states into traits I had to weave these experiences into your life.

00:38:34.260 --> 00:38:38.940 Charley Wininger: it's like when you go on vacation and you have a fabulous time and you come back and say oh.

00:38:39.420 --> 00:38:48.720 Charley Wininger: Now it's back to reality well know if you're having a fabulous time on vacation, how do you learn from that, how do you weave some of that into your life.

00:38:49.110 --> 00:39:00.870 Charley Wininger: And you know how do you learn that you know well, maybe I need to relax one day, every week, maybe I do need to go to the beach more maybe I do need to.

00:39:01.950 --> 00:39:05.910 Charley Wininger: So so with with doing mdma or these other substances.

00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:20.610 Charley Wininger: Integration has to do with learning the lessons that mdma, for example, was teaching that's why I wrote this book, it was teaching me so much, I had a whole curriculum to teach me.

00:39:21.180 --> 00:39:38.490 Charley Wininger: i've done 70 roles now for the past 20 years a role is what we call an mdma experience and it was teaching me a whole curriculum, so I decided to write this book listening to Ecstasy, because it was talking to me, and one thing, it was telling.

00:39:38.490 --> 00:39:40.290 Sam Liebowitz: answered my next question already which is.

00:39:40.290 --> 00:39:41.250 Sam Liebowitz: Why did you write the book.

00:39:41.460 --> 00:39:44.250 Charley Wininger: Okay, so it was telling me.

00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:55.890 Charley Wininger: Charlie you might have to work hard in your life because you have a lot to to accomplish the lock you want to do and say, but you don't have to keep worrying.

00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:07.890 Charley Wininger: You keep worrying and fretting and have all this anxiety about the future and, if you look at your life look at it it's like it's turned out so beautifully.

00:40:08.910 --> 00:40:25.440 Charley Wininger: And and you're in you know, a blessed country at a wonderful time to be alive and, yes, there are challenges, and we all have challenges, when you all have tragedies in your life but, basically, if you look at your life Charlie, this is what Ecstasy was saying to me.

00:40:26.580 --> 00:40:30.060 Charley Wininger: you've been really phenomenally safe your entire life.

00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:47.940 Charley Wininger: And so it taught me, yes, the principle of work dog work, yes, but don't worry and and that has helped me relax and I integrate this into my life, partly by meditating.

00:40:48.600 --> 00:40:58.950 Charley Wininger: helps me altering my relationship to my anxious anxious thoughts realize that these thoughts are just just thoughts I don't have to believe.

00:40:58.980 --> 00:41:00.630 Charley Wininger: Everything I think.

00:41:02.250 --> 00:41:06.870 Sam Liebowitz: Right absolutely absolutely just because we think it doesn't mean it's true.

00:41:07.020 --> 00:41:18.120 Charley Wininger: that's right, so this is one one of the ways that i've integrated these experiences and and you're right integration is the name of the game yeah.

00:41:18.210 --> 00:41:32.430 Sam Liebowitz: yeah so Okay, so you wrote the listening tax to see because of of what it said to you, somebody picking up and reading listening Texas see what, what do you feel they're going to get out of it, what is your intention behind it for the reader.

00:41:33.510 --> 00:41:44.490 Charley Wininger: Well it's like I say it's a love and adventure story on one on one part but it's also the last chapter is a guide to safe use for those who want to.

00:41:45.630 --> 00:41:49.890 Charley Wininger: it's also telling people about that I am not a doctor.

00:41:50.160 --> 00:41:53.670 Charley Wininger: I cannot advocate the use of an illegal substance.

00:41:54.330 --> 00:41:56.400 Charley Wininger: And there's some people who should not.

00:41:56.490 --> 00:42:14.190 Charley Wininger: ever do mdma and I talked about that in the book certain particular psychological or physical conditions mean that you shouldn't do it, but there is a guide about it, that if you are going to do it, how to minimize the risk, how to maximize the benefits.

00:42:14.670 --> 00:42:31.020 Charley Wininger: And also, this is a book that tells you how mdma can help you well, I should put it a better way how it's helped me and other people i've known navigate the aging experience.

00:42:32.580 --> 00:42:37.170 Charley Wininger: From the 40s to the 50s to the 16th to i'm going to be 72 next month.

00:42:37.590 --> 00:42:39.150 Sam Liebowitz: Oh, congratulations.

00:42:39.390 --> 00:42:41.400 Charley Wininger: Thank you, thank you and.

00:42:42.750 --> 00:42:45.330 Charley Wininger: Yes, I consider it an accomplishment i'm proud of it.

00:42:47.550 --> 00:42:56.040 Charley Wininger: And so mdma has helped me with life transitions and showed me how to age gracefully.

00:42:56.430 --> 00:43:06.420 Sam Liebowitz: Know beautiful beautiful beautiful okay on that note I think it's a perfect place to take a quick break to our last break of the show when we come back.

00:43:08.340 --> 00:43:24.510 Sam Liebowitz: I would like to talk a little bit about sort of the the macro, how can doing this work, help us to as we mentioned earlier, like connect to nature connect with each other and potentially maybe South some pretty big challenges in the world okay.

00:43:24.690 --> 00:43:39.570 Sam Liebowitz: cool awesome so everybody, please stay tuned you're listening to the conscious consultant our awakening humanity we've been speaking this hour with Charlie winter author of the book listening to ecstasy and we will be right back after this.

00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:44.040 Listening to talk radio nyc.

00:45:58.020 --> 00:46:09.690 Sam Liebowitz: and welcome back to the conscious consultant our awakening humanity we're speaking with Charlie manager author of the book listening to ecstasy and Charlie we got a question from our audience on Facebook live.

00:46:10.380 --> 00:46:20.490 Sam Liebowitz: loyal listeners tonight asked when the mta therapy for ptsd is suggested for short term use or is it a lifetime and cooperation of drug management.

00:46:21.750 --> 00:46:33.180 Charley Wininger: Good question it's really for short term use and and the best way it's used is with a trained dedicated sitter.

00:46:33.720 --> 00:46:40.980 Charley Wininger: Who knows what they're doing and they've done this before and you meet with them several times sober beforehand.

00:46:41.640 --> 00:46:57.540 Charley Wininger: And then there's a session that's medically assisted with mdma and then is, as we spoke earlier of the integration process afterwards, which are also silver sections and then there might be a second mdma experience sandwiched in between these.

00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:18.720 Charley Wininger: And, but it's generally not necessary to have long term therapy in this way with mdma often not always but often 234 mdma session sandwiched in between these other session sessions, does the trick.

00:47:19.770 --> 00:47:31.470 Sam Liebowitz: gotcha gotcha um I was looking at your website, you have some wonderful videos there and I saw one and I haven't listened to it, yet, but I saw the title, it says mdma is a gateway drug could that be a good thing.

00:47:31.710 --> 00:47:32.970 Sam Liebowitz: What do you mean by that.

00:47:35.040 --> 00:47:51.420 Charley Wininger: Well, I like to put it that mdma is not for everyone, it is a gateway drug it opens the gate to the heart and two different way of looking at oneself the world and one's life and.

00:47:51.930 --> 00:48:01.500 Charley Wininger: one's life possibilities and if you're not ready to really be challenged in that way, it might not be for you um.

00:48:01.530 --> 00:48:16.950 Sam Liebowitz: yeah it's it's it's not it can be very difficult work, Canada, I mean, because with these kinds of substances they bring up sort of your deepest darkest shadow sometimes and it can be very painful and very challenging to work your way through it.

00:48:18.060 --> 00:48:23.820 Charley Wininger: It can be challenging to work your way through the darkness and sometimes we get blinded by the light.

00:48:24.930 --> 00:48:39.750 Charley Wininger: We are overwhelmed by the light you mean I can live so much lighter and freer than i've been living oh my God have I wasted 10 2030 4050 years so far.

00:48:40.050 --> 00:48:40.710 Charley Wininger: These can be.

00:48:40.770 --> 00:48:52.710 Charley Wininger: No seriously, these can be very disturbing thoughts and and sometimes can be overwhelming that like how my God How long have I been How long have I been sleeping you know.

00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:57.450 Charley Wininger: And that can be a rude awakening for some people.

00:48:57.480 --> 00:49:08.160 Sam Liebowitz: Absolutely absolutely I saw this kind of gets us into sort of the next question because I saw this other video that says using an altered state to alter this state.

00:49:09.150 --> 00:49:16.230 Sam Liebowitz: And so you know i've heard a lot of people talk about how this is the quote unquote medicine.

00:49:16.770 --> 00:49:37.740 Sam Liebowitz: To save the planet in a way, like and I don't just mean specifically mdma but the psychedelics in general um How does working with these medicines change how we see the world and change our relationship to the world around us in a way that can help us solve a lot of these big problems.

00:49:38.250 --> 00:49:42.570 Charley Wininger: So many of our problems are ego focused.

00:49:44.520 --> 00:49:54.270 Charley Wininger: So many of our problems have to do with the illusion of separation, that I am, in essence, and I, instead of a we.

00:49:55.980 --> 00:50:12.840 Charley Wininger: That, I am really separate and and apart from from from nature and from the people around me, including the people around me I disagree with, including the people around me I disagree with politically and somehow they are other.

00:50:13.980 --> 00:50:32.790 Charley Wininger: that's an illusion they're really more like us than we care to acknowledge and and so seeing people as as different people are different snowflakes are different from each other we're all unique but it's also know.

00:50:33.510 --> 00:50:34.470 Charley Wininger: All people.

00:50:34.830 --> 00:50:45.990 Charley Wininger: And we have more in common than we have differences and our commonality commonalities are more important than our differences and these medicines, help us see that.

00:50:47.220 --> 00:50:49.380 Charley Wininger: By temporarily dissolving our.

00:50:49.410 --> 00:50:55.710 Charley Wininger: egos while while we're up there, while we're high for those 45678 hours.

00:50:56.760 --> 00:51:04.920 Charley Wininger: And that can when when you look out at the world from that place of your temporarily dissolved ego.

00:51:06.150 --> 00:51:10.590 Charley Wininger: You see things quite radically different and realize that.

00:51:13.140 --> 00:51:21.510 Charley Wininger: That that separation is an illusion, and that the idea of there being.

00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:25.410 Charley Wininger: People out there who are.

00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:33.720 Charley Wininger: Bad and evil and because they're Republicans, or because.

00:51:33.960 --> 00:51:34.740 Charley Wininger: Democrats.

00:51:35.550 --> 00:51:37.800 Charley Wininger: You know that's an allusion to.

00:51:38.070 --> 00:51:38.790 Sam Liebowitz: Right and.

00:51:39.750 --> 00:51:42.390 Charley Wininger: So these medicines can help us realize that.

00:51:42.810 --> 00:51:48.210 Sam Liebowitz: yeah one of the sections in my book is entitled, there is no them there is only us.

00:51:49.560 --> 00:51:55.020 Sam Liebowitz: Right this idea that there's, the US and them no, there is no them there is only us.

00:51:55.320 --> 00:51:56.460 Sam Liebowitz: it's all us.

00:51:59.190 --> 00:52:06.300 Charley Wininger: i'm sorry, let me just say that that includes the natural world to were part of the natural world, I mean.

00:52:06.390 --> 00:52:07.380 Charley Wininger: Right now, what.

00:52:07.650 --> 00:52:21.840 Charley Wininger: Our bodies are at 90% border and we're part of the natural world and and we had better see that as instead of nature as an adversary, so that we can cooperate with nature, before we do ourselves in.

00:52:22.200 --> 00:52:29.130 Sam Liebowitz: yeah yeah that's one of the things that i've really come to see a lot in the last several years is how.

00:52:30.090 --> 00:52:39.960 Sam Liebowitz: We kind of totally ignore nature, we feel nature is something that needs to be conquered instead of living in harmony with nature living in harmony with the seasons and.

00:52:40.260 --> 00:52:46.200 Sam Liebowitz: Especially like I mean you will meet we both live in New York City right, the biggest city in the world and and we act.

00:52:46.620 --> 00:52:59.460 Sam Liebowitz: Like the nature almost has no effect on us like it doesn't matter whether it's winter or summer or spring we still Act, the same we work just as hard and and and we we eat the same food instead of.

00:52:59.940 --> 00:53:12.660 Sam Liebowitz: Looking at well what would really what is winter really all about Maybe I should rest a little bit more in winter, you know what is fall all about maybe that's where I should put my effort and reaping what i've sown and and just.

00:53:13.560 --> 00:53:31.650 Sam Liebowitz: we've so separated ourselves, it sounds like what you're saying is, this is a way to reconnect ourselves to nature, so that we can at least bring it more into our consciousness and realize that, like our our actions, how we live our life or have an effect on the environment around us.

00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:38.040 Charley Wininger: that's right that's right and we can positively or negatively impact that environment.

00:53:38.550 --> 00:53:41.760 Charley Wininger: and learn to live like you're saying within the cycles of.

00:53:41.790 --> 00:53:45.330 Charley Wininger: The natural cycles of the seasons right.

00:53:45.510 --> 00:53:48.270 Sam Liebowitz: And the cycles of life, like you mentioned about growing older.

00:53:48.510 --> 00:53:53.850 Sam Liebowitz: than that there's no shame and growing older that it's just the natural part of the.

00:53:53.850 --> 00:53:54.750 Sam Liebowitz: cycle of life.

00:53:54.990 --> 00:53:56.250 Charley Wininger: that's right that's right.

00:53:56.700 --> 00:54:08.490 Sam Liebowitz: I just wanted to briefly ask you we don't have a lot of time left arm of the differences, because in the beginning, we mentioned a few different medicine so there's mdma and there's LSD.

00:54:09.420 --> 00:54:22.260 Sam Liebowitz: And i'm wondering if you could maybe quickly describe what would be the difference between that and say silla Simon and I wasps and so those are probably like the three main for the three big may have four main things that people work with.

00:54:22.410 --> 00:54:27.870 Charley Wininger: Well psilocybin and I Alaska and LSD are all hallucinogens.

00:54:29.130 --> 00:54:30.270 Charley Wininger: And so.

00:54:31.380 --> 00:54:35.880 Charley Wininger: They they're great visual phenomena and.

00:54:37.080 --> 00:54:38.550 Charley Wininger: They they they.

00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:42.780 Charley Wininger: dissolve the ego and in a certain way.

00:54:44.190 --> 00:54:56.610 Charley Wininger: mdma is better classified as an pathogen it opens the heart helps you feel empathy for those right in your environment and for.

00:54:57.120 --> 00:55:18.240 Charley Wininger: humanity as a whole and and compassion and so it's it's and it's not hallucinatory mdma is not hallucinatory so it's more easier to navigate and you can walk around and people will just make you having a nice day.

00:55:22.200 --> 00:55:32.550 Sam Liebowitz: Beautiful all right we've we've just got a couple of minutes left is listening to Ecstasy the transformative power of mdma it's available i'm assuming on Amazon all over the place.

00:55:32.610 --> 00:55:35.430 Charley Wininger: and Simon and Schuster website to.

00:55:35.910 --> 00:55:42.060 Sam Liebowitz: Simon and Schuster okay and and if people want to get in touch with you or learn more about your work, how would they find you.

00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:49.860 Charley Wininger: You can go to listening to and find me there and i'll be happy to hear from you.

00:55:50.400 --> 00:56:00.720 Sam Liebowitz: All right, wonderful well well Charlie it's been a pleasure, having you on the show, I really appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule to to come on the show today I would love to stay in touch with you.

00:56:01.290 --> 00:56:01.560 Right.

00:56:02.970 --> 00:56:05.550 Sam Liebowitz: Especially you know fellow new yorker it's.

00:56:05.610 --> 00:56:07.080 Sam Liebowitz: always a warms my heart.

00:56:07.230 --> 00:56:17.880 Charley Wininger: And Sam I really appreciate the work that you're doing and the book that you've can come out with and and this show you're really doing a real service for people, and I thank you for it.

00:56:18.810 --> 00:56:30.750 Sam Liebowitz: Thank you, thank you and and and I just as always, I thank my loyal listeners, and my listeners who've tuned into the show today, and I hope you've learned something maybe been exposed to something you don't normally think about.

00:56:31.410 --> 00:56:41.070 Sam Liebowitz: If this is something that resonated with you, or something that you feel is important, please feel free to share it with your friends and neighbors don't keep us the best kept secret around.

00:56:42.120 --> 00:56:53.280 Sam Liebowitz: So thank you all for tuning in Thank you Charlie and please stay tuned if you're listening live on talk radio dot nyc coming up next it's can foster in this show voices of courage.

00:56:53.820 --> 00:56:57.930 Sam Liebowitz: followed later this evening by Graham dobbin and his show.

00:56:58.350 --> 00:57:06.300 Sam Liebowitz: The mind behind lean leadership having a fellow evolutionary business Council Member on his show tonight, so I hope you tune in for that one at 7pm tonight.

00:57:06.600 --> 00:57:22.140 Sam Liebowitz: And, of course, tomorrow, Friday, we've got a whole business block of shows philanthropy and focus always Friday the entrepreneurial web and wise content creates wealth, thank you all for tuning in we've got another great guests next week, so we will talk to you next week.

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