This episode gets real about what to do when everything goes sideways—whether it's with a colleague, a friend, or your team. We will tackle conflict, culture, and communication with honesty, humor, and a whole lot of wisdom. If you’ve ever had to lead, navigate drama, or patch up a rocky relationship, this one's for you.
When workplace conflict or personal relationships start to unravel, how do we respond, reactively or wisely? In this episode, Dr. Dosanjh the Strategy Doctor, Bruce the Corporate Cockroach, and Angie the Renaissance Woman dive into the messy side of leadership and life: clashing personalities, public challenges, strained dynamics, and tough conversations. Whether it’s your team, your project, or your personal circle that’s under pressure, we explore practical strategies and smart insights for handling conflict with clarity and courage. From the nurturing Supporter to the combative Opponent, it’s a raw look at what really happens when things go wrong—and how to make them right. Pull up a chair. This one’s real, relatable, and just the splash of perspective you didn’t know you needed. This week’s featured cocktail…Champagne of your choice!
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In this opening segment of Serving Up Success with a Splash, the hosts introduce a lively and insightful discussion on managing workplace breakdowns by examining different personality types along a spectrum of antagonism. Business leaders are challenged to consider how supporters, skeptics, opponents, and others interact—and how conflict between these roles can unravel team dynamics. The team uses humor and real-world experience to model how strong leadership involves private, empathetic conversations, coaching around accountability, and fostering mutual respect across differing perspectives.
In this segment of Serving Up Success with a Splash, the hosts tackle how leaders should handle challenging personality types like skeptics and moaners without resorting to dismissal. Angie Snowball shares how maturity helped her evolve from emotional reactions to leveraging skeptics for their critical thinking and asking clarifying questions to drive productive dialogue. Bruce Cramer highlights the importance of boundaries and redirecting moaners toward solutions, while both emphasize that leaders set the tone—tolerating negativity breeds toxicity, and strong leadership demands accountability, empathy, and clear expectations.
In this segment of Serving Up Success with a Splash, the hosts explore how skeptics can effectively navigate toxic or one-sided team dynamics, even without formal authority. Angie and Bruce both stress the power of respectful inquiry—using clarifying, fact-based questions to challenge assumptions and influence group thinking without confrontation or ego. They emphasize that for those lacking confidence or communication skills, coaching provides essential guidance to develop presence and assertiveness, and if constructive efforts are continually ignored, the healthiest move may be to seek a better-aligned team or organization.
In the final segment of Serving Up Success with a Splash, the hosts engage in a quickfire discussion about the dangers of imbalanced teams—too many supporters can lead to groupthink and burnout, while too many opponents cause paralysis. Bruce and Angie reflect on the value of every personality type, noting that with good leadership and boundaries, even moaners and passives can contribute valuable insights and necessary balance. They conclude with lessons on handling conflict: remove ego, lead with emotional awareness, and if respectful engagement fails, it may be time to move on—ending the episode with gratitude and a teaser for next week's focus on emotional intelligence.
00:02:13.600 --> 00:02:37.379 nawtej dosanjh: Enough of an intro. Thanks, Jesse, welcome everybody. I just wanted to. I just wanted to let that intro run a little bit longer. I really love that intro. Welcome back everybody so good to see you. I'm not your strategy, doctor, and with me are my 2 favorite people on a Thursday night, and even during the week. Angie.
00:02:37.880 --> 00:02:39.350 nawtej dosanjh: introduce yourself.
00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:48.250 Angie: Hi, Angie Snowball, the Renaissance woman I like how that was qualified there on Thursday nights like, Wow, it's really special.
00:02:48.570 --> 00:02:51.560 nawtej dosanjh: Yeah, that's 4 days a month. That's 4 days a month, right?
00:02:51.770 --> 00:02:55.405 Bruce Cramer: Angie evidently doesn't have anything else to do.
00:02:55.860 --> 00:02:59.410 Angie: Did you see my face? I was like a Thursday night. What the hell.
00:03:00.100 --> 00:03:04.579 nawtej dosanjh: No, Bruce, introduce yourself before we. Before we start the show.
00:03:04.580 --> 00:03:06.717 Bruce Cramer: The corporate cockroach.
00:03:07.430 --> 00:03:37.329 nawtej dosanjh: Welcome welcome, both of you. It's actually, you know, even though it's a Thursday night. We speak all the time, every virtually every day during the week. So there's nothing special about a Thursday night. It was a joke. Look, we're gonna talk about when things go wrong, badly wrong in the workplace. So I'm quite excited about this week. I'll tell you why I'm excited, because I just think Bruce and Angie are gonna have so much to say about when things go wrong in the workplace. But 1st
00:03:37.670 --> 00:03:52.020 nawtej dosanjh: a little bit of a change this week we're drinking champagne. Angie! What are you? What are you drinking? I have. I have a feeling you're not drinking champagne, but it's something, some sparkling version.
00:03:52.450 --> 00:04:06.189 Angie: I know. I think Nantage is going to be mad at me, but I have a prosecco tonight. I quite like the Italian prosecco, and it was just easy to find this is going to be the easiest to drink to make. Yet, though so good choice, Nantej.
00:04:06.190 --> 00:04:06.740 nawtej dosanjh: Okay.
00:04:06.740 --> 00:04:09.699 Bruce Cramer: Is that the Lamarca? Am I saying that right.
00:04:10.770 --> 00:04:11.890 Angie: Oh, yeah.
00:04:12.250 --> 00:04:13.430 Bruce Cramer: Oh, that's what I.
00:04:13.430 --> 00:04:16.440 Angie: Yes. Are we saying it? Right, Nataj. That's how I say it.
00:04:16.740 --> 00:04:17.160 nawtej dosanjh: Okay.
00:04:17.555 --> 00:04:17.950 nawtej dosanjh: Okay.
00:04:17.950 --> 00:04:34.970 nawtej dosanjh: well, I like prosecco, too. But but I did plump for the champagne. I went for the verve clico, which is my favorite champagne, but doesn't matter. Prosecco is good, too, but we can't call it champagne Thursday. Now we have to call it sparkling wine.
00:04:34.970 --> 00:04:35.730 Angie: I like.
00:04:35.730 --> 00:04:40.380 nawtej dosanjh: Format of sparkling wine. But listen, guys, we better get on with this show.
00:04:40.380 --> 00:04:41.539 Angie: Put it, let me open it.
00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:43.560 nawtej dosanjh: Because it's a 2 pack show.
00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:44.650 Bruce Cramer: Whoa!
00:04:44.650 --> 00:04:46.499 nawtej dosanjh: Well done! Well done!
00:04:46.500 --> 00:04:47.560 Angie: I know. Okay.
00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:53.149 nawtej dosanjh: It's a packed show this week, totally packed. We're going to be talking about when things go wrong.
00:04:53.560 --> 00:05:11.759 nawtej dosanjh: But, as you know, we always like to give a bit of context we don't just like to throw out. Well, what happens when things go go wrong this week's context. And we've done this before in different ways. Personality types. Let's break it down into personality types and how they communicate with each other.
00:05:11.940 --> 00:05:21.050 nawtej dosanjh: We've done. We've done different ways of looking at personality types. This week we're going to look at just one factor, one variable
00:05:21.660 --> 00:05:48.139 nawtej dosanjh: personality types across a spectrum of antagonism. So all the way from not very antagonistic to very antagonistic. We're not going to go to the extreme of antagonism because there's no point talking about that extreme, because if somebody is very, extremely antagonistic. There's no way of dealing with that. They're going to be antagonistic. There's no.
00:05:48.140 --> 00:05:48.900 Bruce Cramer: They're in there.
00:05:49.544 --> 00:05:50.189 nawtej dosanjh: Sorry.
00:05:51.410 --> 00:05:54.770 Bruce Cramer: They're they're in their very own category, called.
00:05:54.770 --> 00:05:55.819 nawtej dosanjh: They're in the very
00:05:59.690 --> 00:06:07.952 nawtej dosanjh: we're gonna pick Bruce. Remember what you said last week. So something like oh, I think I think somebody should shut me up right now.
00:06:08.931 --> 00:06:11.578 Angie: We missed that one.
00:06:12.490 --> 00:06:38.989 nawtej dosanjh: We're gonna listen. We're going to talk about before you. Before I let you 2 talking, we're going to talk about. We're going to consider 6 personality types across this spectrum. Remember, this isn't the only way to look at personality types. We're just going to look at it from this week in this hour. That's what we're going to do. The types are, and they are so easily explainable and relatable.
00:06:39.100 --> 00:06:41.129 nawtej dosanjh: The 1st one is the supporter.
00:06:41.450 --> 00:07:03.510 nawtej dosanjh: This is the person who supports the leader and any cost, any price. Very nurturing, very empathetic a stabilizer, really intense situations. The second personality type is the skeptic, the critical thinker really essential for keeping ideas grounded, but often skeptical.
00:07:04.034 --> 00:07:16.159 nawtej dosanjh: Then we have another one. We have somebody who's sort of not antagonistic, but not particularly synergistic, and that person we would call perhaps the the indifferent or the passive.
00:07:16.260 --> 00:07:35.539 nawtej dosanjh: you know, very detached, very silent, resistant to change and can can sort of reflect hidden tensions. And then we have 3, which I'm not going to explain, because they'll be explained as we go along, and they're pretty self-explanatory. The Mona
00:07:35.590 --> 00:08:01.919 nawtej dosanjh: somebody who moans a lot, somebody who complains a lot, usually outside the meeting, sometimes in the meeting, but in the pre-meeting and the post meeting, and then we have the waver can go either way, you know. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. And 15 min later, yeah, I can see why, that's not very different to the, to the skeptic, and finally the opponent, the outright opponent
00:08:02.070 --> 00:08:31.599 nawtej dosanjh: quite antagonistic on that spectrum that I talk about, and what we're going to do in the 1st 3 segments. I'm going to give the guys scenarios. No doubt they're going to give me surprise scenarios back, and I'm going to ask them what they did in their careers in these scenarios scenarios, which I think everybody will be able to relate to. And in the 4th segment we're going to talk about conflict, workplace, conflict, and different ways of looking at workplace conflict.
00:08:31.650 --> 00:08:33.789 nawtej dosanjh: But, Bruce, I'm going to come to you first.st
00:08:34.530 --> 00:08:35.490 Bruce Cramer: Oh, boy!
00:08:35.820 --> 00:08:38.490 nawtej dosanjh: Okay in this scenario you're the leader.
00:08:38.780 --> 00:08:48.010 nawtej dosanjh: Okay, you've got a vision and one of your supporters. One of your supporters has fallen out within an opponent.
00:08:48.930 --> 00:08:49.540 nawtej dosanjh: and it.
00:08:49.540 --> 00:08:50.160 Bruce Cramer: Master.
00:08:50.160 --> 00:08:52.030 nawtej dosanjh: Your supporters.
00:08:52.150 --> 00:08:54.299 Angie: Supporter who is to blame.
00:08:56.050 --> 00:08:57.480 nawtej dosanjh: Okay. You've had 4.
00:08:57.480 --> 00:09:00.129 Angie: Wait! Wait! The supporter started it.
00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:04.190 nawtej dosanjh: Supporter started it, and the supporter is to blame.
00:09:04.370 --> 00:09:20.619 nawtej dosanjh: Okay, so I bet you've come in your 4 decades of experience. I bet you come, come across it. I can't wait. Wait to hear your answer on this. What? What have you done? Well, what did you do? What did you do, and what pearls of wisdom can you offer about dealing with this.
00:09:20.620 --> 00:09:27.009 Bruce Cramer: Oh, good God! You had to start with that that happens more often.
00:09:27.010 --> 00:09:32.850 nawtej dosanjh: It is the actually I've got to tell everybody. It is the most difficult question.
00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:34.680 nawtej dosanjh: So.
00:09:35.370 --> 00:09:37.159 Bruce Cramer: So the 1st thing is
00:09:37.380 --> 00:09:47.059 Bruce Cramer: as big of a dick as you guys know I can be. It still hurts when that supporter, because these people tend to be very loyal.
00:09:47.180 --> 00:09:52.179 Bruce Cramer: so if they now have alliances with your opponent.
00:09:52.520 --> 00:09:57.169 Bruce Cramer: the 1st thing I think of is what went wrong. What did I do.
00:09:57.170 --> 00:10:13.459 nawtej dosanjh: Not an alliance? No, no! The person has just fallen out with the opponent, and it's now creating a toxic culture. So the per your supporter has fallen out, and it's creating a team dynamic which is becoming toxic.
00:10:13.460 --> 00:10:15.059 Bruce Cramer: But but are they now.
00:10:16.230 --> 00:10:19.810 Angie: But our I heard some shit with the opponent.
00:10:19.810 --> 00:10:22.989 Bruce Cramer: Are they now on the side of my opponent? Right.
00:10:22.990 --> 00:10:23.790 nawtej dosanjh: No, no.
00:10:23.790 --> 00:10:24.340 Angie: No.
00:10:25.350 --> 00:10:27.879 nawtej dosanjh: Opponent publicly fallen out.
00:10:28.590 --> 00:10:30.200 Bruce Cramer: Oh, God!
00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:30.760 nawtej dosanjh: Okay.
00:10:30.760 --> 00:10:33.746 Bruce Cramer: Boy, am I glad I'm getting clarity here.
00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:35.009 nawtej dosanjh: Yeah, this is a
00:10:36.270 --> 00:10:38.340 nawtej dosanjh: This will the whole show to be honest.
00:10:38.783 --> 00:10:43.660 Bruce Cramer: So the 1st thing is, I, you know again in private.
00:10:43.930 --> 00:10:44.320 nawtej dosanjh: Hmm.
00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:49.449 Bruce Cramer: So I certainly wouldn't do this in if if something happened in a meeting blew up.
00:10:49.590 --> 00:11:15.659 Bruce Cramer: And you know it got to this point that there's this Major Fallout, I would approach the supporter in private, and one of the things I would do is let them know 1st of all, how much I value the relationship with them. And I would also just say to them, I want to make sure we're on the same page. So, as we pointed out in a prior episode. I'd want to understand
00:11:16.030 --> 00:11:26.569 Bruce Cramer: why they fell out with the opponent, and I would keep this conversation as gentle as I could and as nonjudgmental on my part.
00:11:26.980 --> 00:11:30.310 Bruce Cramer: and then, you know, I would hear them out.
00:11:30.660 --> 00:11:44.679 Bruce Cramer: because if you don't 1 of the things with supporters they'll bottle things up. And maybe this is what happened. And then they explode because they weren't brought in in a collaborative manner.
00:11:44.800 --> 00:11:57.770 Bruce Cramer: And then I would talk to them specifically, you know, so I'm assuming and correct me if I'm wrong, but they're giving me ideas as to why they fell out with an opponent of mine.
00:11:58.160 --> 00:12:04.789 Bruce Cramer: but I would strongly encourage that when you're dealing with an opponent
00:12:05.280 --> 00:12:18.570 Bruce Cramer: you can't go at them. If if it got to the point of a fallout, it was probably because you be. You didn't remain calm, or you became overly aggressive and defensive.
00:12:18.780 --> 00:12:44.019 Bruce Cramer: And who knows? It may have gotten personal, and that will lead to a fallout with an opponent every freaking time when you are, when you've got somebody bucking against you as an opponent, you want to remind them as to what it is you're both trying to achieve. So help me understand, you understand? What are we both trying to achieve?
00:12:44.130 --> 00:12:53.479 Bruce Cramer: Keep it respectful, not personalized, and work in a very calm but assertive. You're still. You're still firm.
00:12:54.110 --> 00:13:16.170 Bruce Cramer: but you're open to understanding that opponent's position. And then, for lack of a better term leading to a conversation where hopefully they will now reciprocate and listen to you. Explain so that they can generally. What I found is that you kind of like 80%.
00:13:16.220 --> 00:13:28.499 Bruce Cramer: You were trying to achieve the same thing. It was 20% of whatever it was you opposed. That wasn't clear, understood, and just led to, you know, bad.
00:13:28.500 --> 00:13:31.389 Angie: That was good, Bruce. I didn't even want to cut you off.
00:13:32.063 --> 00:13:33.409 Bruce Cramer: Thank you.
00:13:33.640 --> 00:13:36.340 Bruce Cramer: Now let me ask the test.
00:13:37.100 --> 00:13:49.429 nawtej dosanjh: Hold on! Hold on! I've got a I got a follow up question for. Well, I'm gonna ask Angie to do it first, st and we're not, Jesse. We're not going to break till we get to the bottom of this question, because this is this is important. So so Angie.
00:13:50.050 --> 00:13:58.690 nawtej dosanjh: the the supporter owes an apology to the opponent, both of you. But, Angie first, st then, Bruce.
00:13:59.060 --> 00:14:04.529 nawtej dosanjh: you know you've talked about Bruce. You talked about going to the the supporter and having a conversation.
00:14:04.630 --> 00:14:11.070 nawtej dosanjh: but in reality it was the supporter's fault. The opponent is owed an apology.
00:14:11.290 --> 00:14:15.919 nawtej dosanjh: you know. When are we going to go to the apart Angie over to you, and then back to Bruce.
00:14:16.760 --> 00:14:41.699 Angie: Well, I think when you make that type of apology, the supporter, because of their personality, will be understanding that an apology needs to be made, because Bruce did his part. They understand it, and when they go to them it has to be more than I'm sorry. In fact, I'm not a fan of saying, I'm sorry. With an apology, I prefer to go in and say I didn't listen to you fully. I was over emotional. I didn't hear you.
00:14:41.700 --> 00:14:42.220 Angie: Okay.
00:14:42.220 --> 00:14:51.470 Angie: And I really just want to clear this up because I don't want any tension between us. And I think I caused it. And I want to remedy that. So can we talk about this again?
00:14:51.470 --> 00:14:55.850 nawtej dosanjh: Angie, you are so skilled. You're very skilled, Bruce, you you're dealing.
00:14:55.850 --> 00:14:56.310 Bruce Cramer: Ditto.
00:14:56.310 --> 00:15:01.149 nawtej dosanjh: Dealing with your support of that way and Angie, you, you 2 should work together. Oh, wait! You do
00:15:02.520 --> 00:15:03.060 nawtej dosanjh: right.
00:15:03.060 --> 00:15:23.469 Bruce Cramer: But to Angie's point that would have been the coaching. Because I'm with Andy. I, Angie, I'm not so sure formal. I'm sorry, is needed as much as I need to. Better. Listen. I, you know, remain calm, but for you know you want this to be a mutual win-win for both of them.
00:15:24.260 --> 00:15:29.279 nawtej dosanjh: Okay. So Le Lesson, before we go to lesson, I think we're all agreed. And I agree with you guys.
00:15:29.510 --> 00:15:45.900 nawtej dosanjh: We don't go after the opponent. The opponent is a valued member of the team. Okay, let's let's just think on that before, when we now go to break and just pick it up when we come back. Okay, Jesse. I think we can go to break now. Sorry to delay you.
00:15:46.870 --> 00:15:48.180 Bruce Cramer: Janzi's turn.
00:17:31.850 --> 00:17:47.489 nawtej dosanjh: Okay, welcome back. Everybody. Angie. Yes, Bruce, you're gonna get your wish. It's Angie. 1st this time we before we start with Angie. So just to recap. We were not against the opponent. The 3 of us were not against the opponent in.
00:17:47.490 --> 00:17:51.099 Angie: Like him, but you don't have to be against him, or.
00:17:51.100 --> 00:17:51.580 Bruce Cramer: Absolutely.
00:17:51.580 --> 00:17:52.680 nawtej dosanjh: Okay, 400.
00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:53.130 Angie: Her.
00:17:53.130 --> 00:17:53.779 Angie: Yeah, he's.
00:17:53.780 --> 00:17:54.600 nawtej dosanjh: But he started.
00:17:54.600 --> 00:18:07.770 nawtej dosanjh: okay over to you. You're you're you're a leader. You're also a leader in this scenario. Okay? But the skeptic and what you've definitely come across. This I have. Everybody I know has come across this. The skeptic
00:18:08.300 --> 00:18:12.410 nawtej dosanjh: keeps disagreeing with you in public all the time.
00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:16.279 nawtej dosanjh: Are you going to fire the guy. I don't know. What are you going to do.
00:18:16.730 --> 00:18:46.159 Angie: Well, no, because he's valuable. But I will also tell you how I dealt with this when I was 30, and how I deal with it now are wildly different, because I think the 1st part of dealing with that is yourself. The one thing you can't control, what the skeptics going to do. You can't control his personality or hers. You can't control yours. So when a skeptics coming at you, it's natural to get defensive and emotional. So I think the 1st thing you need to do is be confident in the decision you made.
00:18:46.190 --> 00:19:13.100 Angie: Take the emotion out of it and find the good and what the skeptic does. The good thing is, they are asking questions that you may be too far in the weeds, or too happy or blinded not to see. So let's say, okay, good question. Let's look into that. And also, as you answer those questions, you're just confirming that what you're doing is the right thing. Another thing I find with people, that of that personality is they want facts.
00:19:13.100 --> 00:19:28.690 Angie: I always go for return on investment. What's the roi of what we're doing here? What numbers am I going to give you and then explain the process, but also asking them questions when they throw something super negative at me.
00:19:28.790 --> 00:19:52.559 Angie: Okay, I hear you. I'm validating you. I don't understand. So let me ask you a question and just question them back so that you can understand more what they're skeptical of, and there probably are some good questions in there. So that's another one do I care for them? They're not the easiest people to deal with. But are they valuable? Yeah, I think they can be very valuable. So, and another thing, for
00:19:53.130 --> 00:19:54.470 Angie: just want to be heard.
00:19:54.910 --> 00:20:06.789 nawtej dosanjh: Well, you, said Angie, sorry to cut over you, but you said that you were going to talk about how you dealt with it when you were 30. What? How did you deal with it when you were 30, when when it was you know you said it was different.
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:24.810 Angie: Oh, yeah, I'd get really mad. And I tell them I think they're stupid. And then I go to the bar with my friends and drink and bitch about them like that's what I would do, but purely unproductive, just building an emotional toxic environment, pretending like Oh, God, no, you know I have to be professional, this guy, but I can't wait to leave work and talk bad about him.
00:20:25.900 --> 00:20:45.699 Angie: and then it's just so unproductive like nothing happens. There's no point. It's just toxic stuff, and they're not on board. So they're not doing their part. And they are part of the team. So they have to have a task, and as long as they feel felt understood and addressed, then they're willing to do the task the way I used to do it. He was the same way. He's like screw you. I don't like you.
00:20:45.700 --> 00:21:12.540 nawtej dosanjh: You know, Andrew, say, before I come before I come to Bruce, I've got to say week after week. It is so refreshing to for you, for me to hear this level of maturity and confidence, to express your vulnerability seriously, the way you authentically just talk about how you have been flawed, and you deal with it. I just love it so, Andrew cheers to you. Really.
00:21:12.540 --> 00:21:15.419 Angie: There's lots of flaws, more flaws to tell you about. Cheers.
00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:25.099 nawtej dosanjh: We've got a lot of shows coming up. So that's good news Bruce. Another one for you. There's a lot of moaning in your team. Okay? So
00:21:25.350 --> 00:21:39.689 nawtej dosanjh: what are the possible causes of of that? If is it just because you got too many monus in your team? I don't know you're gonna rebalance the team. Sorry I'm giving you the tough ones here, Bruce, but but you know you, I'm dying to hear what you do. I'm writing it down.
00:21:41.435 --> 00:21:50.440 Bruce Cramer: So it. It's interesting because it's easy for me to sit here today and answer these questions
00:21:50.560 --> 00:22:00.080 Bruce Cramer: and also reflect the behavior I use today. But you're right, Angie. You go back a couple of decades. Not so good.
00:22:00.500 --> 00:22:00.910 Angie: And.
00:22:00.910 --> 00:22:02.490 Bruce Cramer: And but that's how you learn.
00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:04.170 Bruce Cramer: So
00:22:04.710 --> 00:22:10.699 Bruce Cramer: 1st of all, I would have never done this a couple decades. The good news about a moaner.
00:22:10.820 --> 00:22:18.810 Bruce Cramer: If you're going to hear the opposition, or some argument against whatever it is you're involved, they're going to be the first.st
00:22:19.130 --> 00:22:39.720 Bruce Cramer: So the good news is, if you know you're trying to accomplish something or make a point. The moaner is always going to lead, you know, because that's just in their nature. But there is value, because now you're going to hear what some of the negative is going to be or the opposition is going to be.
00:22:39.840 --> 00:22:40.900 Bruce Cramer: But
00:22:41.310 --> 00:23:04.549 Bruce Cramer: the other thing I've learned is never to engage in them in terms of the complaining. It's to acknowledge that you recognize how you you know they feel, but don't engage with them. Don't go on and on, or pile on, and don't allow others to pile on. Acknowledge how they feel.
00:23:04.690 --> 00:23:09.050 Bruce Cramer: I would say the next big thing is you want to start asking them.
00:23:09.220 --> 00:23:11.979 Bruce Cramer: well, what do you think we need to do
00:23:12.230 --> 00:23:21.389 Bruce Cramer: differently, you know. Get them into solutioning so redirect by asking them very politely, you know, what
00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:26.880 Bruce Cramer: what would you do, or what are you thinking we could do to make this better?
00:23:27.588 --> 00:23:38.050 Bruce Cramer: And so I think, you know. That's how I would answer that, you know similar to Angie. I I would have probably cut them off.
00:23:38.534 --> 00:23:55.600 Bruce Cramer: I would have devalued them to some degree when in when in essence. Thank you for the warning. But now let's you know it's a chance for me to get them engaged towards a solution versus just to continue to complain. But you do have to set the boundary that we're not going to sit here.
00:23:55.600 --> 00:23:56.030 Angie: Yeah.
00:23:56.030 --> 00:23:56.610 Bruce Cramer: And complete.
00:23:56.610 --> 00:24:07.679 Angie: And then you get them on board sooner, too, rather than they're just sitting around secretly complaining. So, Nataj, I'm gonna ruin your script here for a minute. I have a question for you, because
00:24:07.890 --> 00:24:08.880 Angie: UK.
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:10.320 nawtej dosanjh: There's no script, there's no script.
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:11.790 nawtej dosanjh: It's just.
00:24:11.790 --> 00:24:13.230 Angie: I shouldn't say script. You're playing.
00:24:13.230 --> 00:24:16.340 nawtej dosanjh: You may you! You may think there's a script.
00:24:16.340 --> 00:24:18.140 Angie: Yeah, it's just.
00:24:18.140 --> 00:24:19.520 nawtej dosanjh: There is not.
00:24:19.520 --> 00:24:21.639 Angie: Yeah, I derailed the plane there. But there's.
00:24:23.900 --> 00:24:26.039 Bruce Cramer: I wouldn't have agreed to these questions.
00:24:27.366 --> 00:24:38.099 Angie: Happening. So Uk and us have very different cultures in some areas, right? And.
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:38.760 nawtej dosanjh: This is.
00:24:38.760 --> 00:25:08.259 Angie: To the United. To most Americans, I would say they find most brits very pessimistic, very much more like, I think, if you ask the average American who has the most motors and skeptics, they would say the Uk, whereas the Uk people are like these damn Americans are just smiling all the damn time. They don't even know what's happening. It's kind of like the generic stereotype, you know. So giving these, do you think that is different in the Uk. And us, and would you handle it? Different with a different culture?
00:25:08.700 --> 00:25:17.150 nawtej dosanjh: Wow! That is such a brilliant question. I'm as you were asking that question I was get. I was thinking, oh, we need to talk.
00:25:17.300 --> 00:25:27.860 nawtej dosanjh: The 3 of us need to talk about a show comparing British and American culture across 6 dimensions or 8 dimensions. So the answer is, there's a difference.
00:25:28.649 --> 00:25:45.910 nawtej dosanjh: We mustn't ever stereotype, because even with within a culture, you get people who, for example, in British culture, you would get people who behave more like more American than Americans, and even in American culture you get people who would behave more like British people than British.
00:25:45.910 --> 00:25:46.580 Angie: Percent agree.
00:25:46.580 --> 00:26:09.959 nawtej dosanjh: So you can't stereotype. But there's something in the averages for sure, and there is a difference. There is a difference. It's a giant question to answer. It's so, giant, I can't sound bite it. And also, also, I think I may have forgotten some of the dimensions. I'd have to revisit them. So I'm not answering, because I may have forgotten some of the answers. Anyway, you're interrupting. Go ahead.
00:26:10.130 --> 00:26:25.559 Bruce Cramer: You know, the other thing is, you have to realize with the moaner the importance of boundaries, because one of the statements that I make to everybody. I coach the leader sets the culture by what they tolerate
00:26:25.750 --> 00:26:41.340 Bruce Cramer: by what they. So if you're tolerating somebody that's constantly pissing and moaning, you've now devalued everybody else, or at least disengaged everybody else. So you do need to address it and yourself.
00:26:41.340 --> 00:26:50.220 Angie: Because if you're going with it and you have no confidence, people don't follow people that are scared. People don't follow people that don't believe in what they're doing. So.
00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:57.419 nawtej dosanjh: I'd go, I'd go one. I'd go one step further about the the leader setting the culture. If the leader is a Mona.
00:26:58.540 --> 00:27:05.170 nawtej dosanjh: then the non moaners are going to become moners. That's the direction of influence. If the leader is a gossip.
00:27:05.800 --> 00:27:33.670 nawtej dosanjh: everybody's gonna start gossiping, everyone's gonna going to see value in gossip, because everybody mimics the leader. If there's a toxic environment of work, it's always the leader's fault always. It's never anybody's fault. One question before we go to, we go. We go to break for both of you. Okay, whoever asks first, st the other one has to go. Second. Okay, would you, would you, Ban, would you? Would you try and move Monas out of your team?
00:27:35.730 --> 00:27:36.709 Bruce Cramer: I'll go first.st
00:27:36.710 --> 00:27:55.140 Angie: I don't move anybody out of my team unless they're totally toxic. I mean, I when I put people through there are times you Fire people because they've been through the coaching. They've been through everything like I'm sorry you're just not a fit here, and one bad apple, but I would not fire them, because they're a moaner, I would, you know, take them for the value they bring.
00:27:55.250 --> 00:28:02.110 Angie: and then coach them to understand how they're seen, so they can also communicate with the rest of the team.
00:28:03.230 --> 00:28:05.659 nawtej dosanjh: Brilliant Bruce. What do you think any different or.
00:28:05.660 --> 00:28:27.099 Bruce Cramer: You know. Not really. I guess what I would say. My tolerance level would be a little less. But I would 1st exhaust all avenues to Angie's point, to to reckon with them, and to get them towards solutioning. But if they refuse to contribute in a positive way, and just choose to complain. Then
00:28:27.500 --> 00:28:36.719 Bruce Cramer: they're gone. And and one of the reasons is because I perceive moaners and waivers and passives
00:28:36.840 --> 00:28:41.070 Bruce Cramer: don't really influence others on the team. It's the skept
00:28:41.940 --> 00:28:48.570 Bruce Cramer: and the opponents that will have a huge impact on other team members. Okay, so that's.
00:28:48.570 --> 00:29:01.149 nawtej dosanjh: But right off, right after the breakes take us to break, and you stay where you are. Don't take us to break.
00:29:01.580 --> 00:29:03.188 nawtej dosanjh: Go ahead, Angie Jesse.
00:30:36.380 --> 00:30:37.420 Angie: I love Bruce's mood.
00:30:37.420 --> 00:30:50.440 nawtej dosanjh: Guys. Okay, so change change of tack, change of tack here this time. For this segment. You're not the leader this time. Okay, but you're both. You're both part of the team. You're both skeptics.
00:30:50.560 --> 00:30:55.439 nawtej dosanjh: Okay. Bruce, should we come to you first, st or should we go to Angie first? st What do you think.
00:30:56.023 --> 00:30:59.350 Bruce Cramer: You pick, you can come to me too late.
00:30:59.350 --> 00:31:01.549 nawtej dosanjh: Now come to me.
00:31:01.550 --> 00:31:07.783 Angie: So you think you're gonna say, Bruce, would you like to talk? And he's gonna say, no, that's not gonna happen.
00:31:08.080 --> 00:31:12.439 Bruce Cramer: Angie, you've bailed me out on a couple of these, so I'm depending on you.
00:31:13.950 --> 00:31:32.699 nawtej dosanjh: Okay, Bruce. So you're part of the team. But you have reservations about the leader. You're a skeptic. You have reservations about the leader's capability. But you don't agree with the moaners and the opponents, who are very vocally emboldened against the leader.
00:31:33.220 --> 00:31:34.969 nawtej dosanjh: Culture is toxic.
00:31:36.280 --> 00:31:50.570 nawtej dosanjh: What do you do? What can you do. You're not the leader. Okay, you have no authority over these people. You're the skeptic, but you and you don't agree with the monas and the opponents.
00:31:51.690 --> 00:31:58.510 Bruce Cramer: This happens all the time. If there's a good meeting, and you've got people totally engaged.
00:31:58.987 --> 00:32:05.210 Bruce Cramer: I would how I would handle it, knowing that. And and I've played the role of skeptic many times.
00:32:05.210 --> 00:32:05.850 nawtej dosanjh: You know.
00:32:06.512 --> 00:32:17.249 Bruce Cramer: Even if you know, if I sense, there's groupthink or or everybody's going the other way, just like the scenario you're proposing. I start asking questions
00:32:17.250 --> 00:32:41.409 Bruce Cramer: that center on facts and logic by saying, Help me better understand your perspective. So I don't say to that leader. Oh, I agree with you and I disagree with, because I may not have made up my mind either, but I choose to better to seek to understand versus just poo, poo the leader and say, screw you so I would, you know I would start saying.
00:32:41.620 --> 00:32:57.049 Bruce Cramer: and I would do it in front of the group. So the whole group gets the benefit of him or her trying to help me better understand their perspective more clearly while making sure it's fact-based. And it's sound logic.
00:32:58.530 --> 00:33:00.260 nawtej dosanjh: I think that's a brilliant.
00:33:00.260 --> 00:33:15.960 Angie: Yeah, I think that's really important, like the the sound logic piece like you really got to put that out there. Because that's why skeptics are so important to have. Like they are looking at the details. They are looking at the charts, the graphs, the rate of returns and things like that.
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:20.350 nawtej dosanjh: Angie. Tough one for you coming up. Now.
00:33:20.650 --> 00:33:21.330 Angie: Okay.
00:33:21.330 --> 00:33:21.820 Angie: Boy.
00:33:21.820 --> 00:33:26.420 nawtej dosanjh: Again. You're not the leader. You're the skeptic, and
00:33:26.860 --> 00:33:31.019 nawtej dosanjh: you're surrounded by a very unbalanced team.
00:33:31.410 --> 00:33:37.500 nawtej dosanjh: They are all supporters of the leader hero worship of the leader.
00:33:38.243 --> 00:33:41.159 nawtej dosanjh: And you're you're feeling sidelined.
00:33:41.520 --> 00:33:46.979 nawtej dosanjh: So yeah, I you gotta try and be really empathetic here about how people would really feel.
00:33:47.713 --> 00:33:53.389 nawtej dosanjh: So how do you deal with the supporters and the and the leader? It's not. It's there's
00:33:55.170 --> 00:34:06.229 nawtej dosanjh: I don't want to say that the the leaders not wrong, but not always right, not always wrong, not always right. But the supporters are just backing the leader, her or him.
00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:11.950 nawtej dosanjh: And you are being sidelined. You can't. It's even. It's difficult to even raise your voice.
00:34:13.030 --> 00:34:31.279 Angie: So I think this is where communication skills are key. Because as a skeptic, if you go into a group like that, it's important to validate the other side, like, I think what we're doing here is great. I think this initiative is fantastic.
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:43.400 Angie: It would be wonderful to have XY. Or Z so like validating a thing. But then, and never say. But when you're going through that, I said, I think this idea is fantastic. I just need to understand
00:34:43.550 --> 00:34:53.729 Angie: how we're going to get from here to here, or I just need to understand the cost, because to me I'm struggling to see that this
00:34:53.840 --> 00:35:22.330 Angie: time, and effort and money will be worth it. If this is the goal, you know. And then asking questions, did I under, I think I might have misunderstood the goal. Was this the goal we're trying to do? Because that step to me doesn't make sense, but always going in there and saying, like, you know, clarifying questions and definitely never attacking the leader, never saying, This is stupid, but going back and asking those questions, I actually do it did this this week with someone.
00:35:22.330 --> 00:35:28.719 Angie: It's like A. So I do a lot of like fractional Cmo stuff. And the goal
00:35:28.720 --> 00:35:34.229 Angie: made no sense. But everybody loved it because the leader loved the goal, and this was the great idea.
00:35:34.230 --> 00:35:34.850 nawtej dosanjh: And maybe.
00:35:34.850 --> 00:35:58.280 Angie: And so I had to do exactly that. I had to say absolutely. The goal is fantastic. I'm just wondering how you chose it, because I can't help unless I understand how you chose it. And we went into more and more questions. Come to find out. The leader says you're absolutely right. We're going to change. We're going to change tracks. This doesn't make sense, but that's how we did. It was not saying the goal was bad, not saying the path was bad, but asking questions
00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:04.909 Angie: that made everybody else start to see. You know this is going to be a struggle. This is going to be a challenge. So.
00:36:05.530 --> 00:36:13.990 nawtej dosanjh: Brilliant, Bruce, the I can't imagine you've ever been in a position where you've been sidelined. But
00:36:14.390 --> 00:36:42.780 nawtej dosanjh: how would you advise? But you've come across clients who've been sidelined, you know. We call them skeptics, but you know, critical thinkers, you would. You would have come across clients that were that were sidelined, and there was, there was, for want of a better way way of describing it, some sort of hero worship of the of the leader, or just blind support of the leader. You know. How. What would you advise? People your clients who may maybe in that
00:36:42.970 --> 00:36:45.070 nawtej dosanjh: maybe feeling sidelined.
00:36:46.029 --> 00:36:53.400 Bruce Cramer: Yeah. So what do you mean exactly by being sidelined being worshipped, or what? What do you mean?
00:36:53.400 --> 00:37:02.239 nawtej dosanjh: Sideline. So basically, they're not. Listen. You're a skeptic, you know. You're but you're being. You're being ignored. Sideline.
00:37:02.240 --> 00:37:02.700 Bruce Cramer: Wow!
00:37:03.405 --> 00:37:14.690 nawtej dosanjh: Is being ignored, and the the supporters are just, you know, taking up the the airspace.
00:37:15.010 --> 00:37:20.890 nawtej dosanjh: I, as I said, I don't believe that you pro. I can't imagine you ever being sidelined but
00:37:21.730 --> 00:37:24.369 nawtej dosanjh: ignored. But how would you advise others.
00:37:24.370 --> 00:37:26.017 Bruce Cramer: It that has happened?
00:37:26.430 --> 00:37:27.339 nawtej dosanjh: Has it? Okay?
00:37:27.340 --> 00:37:35.319 Bruce Cramer: Oh, oh, God, yeah. And and again, multiple times. And I would say, the best way I would handle it
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:52.030 Bruce Cramer: is. And I can use real life examples. Especially in the C-suite, whereas, you know, hero hero worshiping can easily occur because people are like, oh, that's the Cfo that's Ci, whatever.
00:37:52.630 --> 00:37:59.309 Bruce Cramer: I would have the conversation with that leader, one on one, I'd say, Hey, listen!
00:37:59.520 --> 00:38:21.019 Bruce Cramer: I understand that you have a lot of support. And you know, in terms of the group, you know clearly in that meeting they had nothing to do with me. I just want to make sure I understand, and that you understand where I'm coming from, and I'm not doing this to be disrespectful.
00:38:21.060 --> 00:38:42.620 Bruce Cramer: I'm not saying the supporters are all wrong. I'm just saying I want to make sure I'm being heard, and if you tell me, Dude, it makes no sense where you know that's it. But I wouldn't let it die. I wouldn't be sidelined and stay silent. I won't make a big deal in the meeting.
00:38:43.291 --> 00:38:45.699 Bruce Cramer: if especially if I've been
00:38:45.830 --> 00:38:49.160 Bruce Cramer: sideline. And you know, if you've been sidelined or not.
00:38:49.160 --> 00:38:49.800 nawtej dosanjh: And is that.
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:53.870 Bruce Cramer: It's not. I don't want to waste everybody's time, but I do want to.
00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:57.149 Bruce Cramer: because I value that leader. I just.
00:38:57.150 --> 00:38:57.640 nawtej dosanjh: Want to make sure.
00:38:57.640 --> 00:39:02.209 Bruce Cramer: They're looking at all the different perspectives, and that they clearly heard me.
00:39:02.790 --> 00:39:23.929 nawtej dosanjh: So both both of you. And just whoever goes 1st go. What do you think? But yeah, you know, I think both your answers were so skilled? but what about what about? But what about you know, advising people who don't have those skills? How do they acquire those skills. And they're just
00:39:24.070 --> 00:39:30.960 nawtej dosanjh: you, you know, we we you know what situations can can be like when somebody's denied voice
00:39:31.761 --> 00:39:50.179 nawtej dosanjh: they can just crawl into a corner and and you know, what would you advise people who you know that maybe they're younger. They haven't acquired those skills. I mean you 2 gave amazing answers. You should you 2 should write a textbook? Because.
00:39:50.620 --> 00:39:52.894 Angie: Well, luckily we're both coaches.
00:39:53.350 --> 00:39:55.240 nawtej dosanjh: Yeah, yeah, but.
00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:56.010 Bruce Cramer: Okay.
00:39:56.010 --> 00:40:00.910 nawtej dosanjh: You know. How do you? How do you advise? What will you say about to those
00:40:01.150 --> 00:40:12.370 nawtej dosanjh: people? And there's so many who wouldn't have that confidence. They probably do have the skills, but wouldn't have the confidence. They have a bit of anxiety. How would how are they going to deal with that.
00:40:13.180 --> 00:40:32.469 Angie: I think it is coaching like what I love about communication, coaching, business, coaching, executive coaching, whatever you want to call it is, I didn't know. I don't even know if it did exist when I was 30, but if it did, I didn't know what it was. I'd never heard of it, because that would have been the answer. I wouldn't have had to spend
00:40:32.610 --> 00:41:02.269 Angie: 1520 years bumbling around being angry and angry, drunk at a bar, talking about people, because I would have learned how to communicate better with them. The way I learned was just luckily certain great bosses, some really good mentors, and just the school of hard knocks, right? Like learning what works and what doesn't work over years of people responding. But that's the beauty of using a coach is, they can teach you these things. You come to them with the problem that you have, and we'll walk you through scenarios. We walk you through
00:41:02.270 --> 00:41:06.859 Angie: ways that you can discuss this. We talk through communication tactics.
00:41:06.860 --> 00:41:31.209 Angie: words to say body language. I mean business coaches. You can learn so much about personality styles what we're doing today. Disc all those things. Business coaches will work with you to understand how you can leverage that. And you don't have to putz around for years just trying to figure it out getting a coach to find your weak spot. It's just like, you know, famous baseball players.
00:41:31.370 --> 00:41:55.440 Angie: They get hitting coaches, golf guys, they get a putting coach right? Like they go to specifically, what am I struggling? What do I need to be better at? And they find that specific coach, because they don't have time to keep putting for 30 years and see they need to win the masters now. Right? So I think, getting a coach. Now, Bruce, I feel like you should have shut me up there. I feel like I rambled on that one.
00:41:55.963 --> 00:42:00.670 nawtej dosanjh: We'll talk about that another time. Maybe off air.
00:42:00.670 --> 00:42:01.909 Angie: I need to shut myself up.
00:42:01.910 --> 00:42:02.240 Bruce Cramer: But.
00:42:02.240 --> 00:42:02.955 nawtej dosanjh: Do.
00:42:03.670 --> 00:42:30.149 Bruce Cramer: You know one of the things I tell anybody. If you want to get ahead in this world, you got to get comfortable, leading into discomfort, and the best way to lead into discomfort is, be yourself. Be vulnerable. Let somebody know. Hey? You know, this makes me. I'm a little uncomfortable, even bringing this up. But hear me out. Get used to leading, and be respectful.
00:42:30.200 --> 00:42:52.630 Bruce Cramer: You're not there to attack anybody else. You're there to just make sure that person understands. Now, if you do that and you still get sidelined. I've had to tell people this move on. You're in the wrong organization. You're working. You're working for the wrong person. Just move out or move on.
00:42:52.790 --> 00:43:19.760 Bruce Cramer: because you will run into some people that you'll lean into discomfort, and it won't be necessarily totally valued the good news you have. You'll save face because you did it respectfully. You were authentic, you were vulnerable. Nobody can say God! What an asshole, you know. No, they're gonna give them credit. But if you continue to get sidelined and you're learning to lean into that disc, you're in the wrong place. Move on.
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:20.360 Angie: Agree.
00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:37.779 nawtej dosanjh: So do your best. That so I think what you both saying super elegantly and articulately is, do your best, be vulnerable, be respectful, but if that still doesn't work be open, but if that doesn't work, move on, go, go! Do.
00:43:37.780 --> 00:43:41.710 Angie: Stay somewhere. You're not appreciated because you're wasting everybody's time.
00:43:41.960 --> 00:43:42.620 Bruce Cramer: Yep.
00:43:44.140 --> 00:43:56.540 nawtej dosanjh: Okay, I think on that note, we're going to go to break Jesse. And then we're going to come back with a slightly different take in the last segment. Come back soon, guys.
00:43:57.200 --> 00:43:58.650 Angie: Okay. See? Ya.
00:45:45.750 --> 00:46:06.089 nawtej dosanjh: Okay, a bit of a quick fire round I'm gonna put a very short scenario or context for you, and a quick fire. 1015 seconds answers from from each of you. So what's the dangers of too many promoters? Supporters in your team.
00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:08.310 nawtej dosanjh: Angie?
00:46:09.530 --> 00:46:12.949 Angie: What you had a bruise for.
00:46:12.950 --> 00:46:14.719 nawtej dosanjh: Many supporters in your team.
00:46:15.797 --> 00:46:19.030 Angie: Reality. Drink. Drink.
00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:20.100 Angie: Okay.
00:46:21.610 --> 00:46:25.030 nawtej dosanjh: You don't look at pitfalls that are coming your way.
00:46:26.590 --> 00:46:30.590 nawtej dosanjh: Bruce. Good one, Bruce. Too many, too many supporters in your team.
00:46:30.970 --> 00:46:33.710 Bruce Cramer: Groupthink it's the worst thing that can happen.
00:46:33.920 --> 00:46:42.859 nawtej dosanjh: Love it. Bit of chaos. No. Follow through, maybe. Sometimes. Okay. Too many opponents, Bruce. Too many opponents in your team.
00:46:44.660 --> 00:46:47.139 nawtej dosanjh: downside of too many opponents in your team.
00:46:47.140 --> 00:46:49.750 Bruce Cramer: Nothing will get done.
00:46:49.750 --> 00:46:53.069 Angie: I was gonna say exactly the same thing. Nothing will ever happen.
00:46:53.070 --> 00:46:58.810 nawtej dosanjh: Nothing will ever happen. Total total paralysis. Okay, yeah, what about what about
00:46:59.030 --> 00:47:05.360 nawtej dosanjh: no supporters? You're on your own. You're the leader, and you're on your own. No supporters.
00:47:06.170 --> 00:47:15.410 Angie: Good. That's when you get burnout. That's when you start getting angry, and you do not finish anything because you're just trying to do everything, and eventually you burn out and do nothing.
00:47:15.410 --> 00:47:18.819 Bruce Cramer: If you have absolutely no supporters, look in the mirror.
00:47:19.040 --> 00:47:21.250 Bruce Cramer: Something you're doing isn't right.
00:47:21.420 --> 00:47:29.480 nawtej dosanjh: Other. Yeah, yeah, that could be. That could be right, too. And it could be as simple as you just didn't put the right team together. So from that, from that.
00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:32.990 Angie: Sometimes you don't have budget for the right team, or something like that, too.
00:47:32.990 --> 00:47:45.370 nawtej dosanjh: Yeah. But both answers, I like, I think, you know, if you have no supporters, you're going to burn out. If you have no supporters. Maybe maybe you put that team together, or you know whatever. So
00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:49.969 nawtej dosanjh: another quickfire question, then so
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:57.880 nawtej dosanjh: do we want all 6 personalities in our team, yes or no, and why?
00:47:59.950 --> 00:48:01.970 Angie: I'm not. Gonna I'm gonna break the rule.
00:48:01.970 --> 00:48:12.050 Bruce Cramer: I would say, no, you don't want all 6 if you know when I look at the moaner and the waiver.
00:48:12.170 --> 00:48:20.769 Bruce Cramer: those are 2 specifically. But again, your 1st line of defense is feedback and coaching.
00:48:21.160 --> 00:48:24.610 Bruce Cramer: But then, if that doesn't work, and
00:48:24.810 --> 00:48:36.340 Bruce Cramer: one of the ways to eliminate even potentially, the passive is that you set as a boundary or ground rule. No meetings outside this meeting.
00:48:36.660 --> 00:48:56.350 Bruce Cramer: What we decide and discuss in here is is is gospel. I don't want to hear the meeting being replayed tomorrow at the water cool where everybody now has all this worst case scenario. If somebody was still processing, let's pull the group together. But let's have the meeting in the meeting.
00:48:58.050 --> 00:48:59.179 Angie: Okay. Oh, I like
00:48:59.180 --> 00:49:06.760 Angie: I was. I was gonna say not yes or no. I think it depends. And I I know you hate that answer, probably, but because it it depends.
00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:07.299 Angie: It's 1 of
00:49:07.300 --> 00:49:34.360 Angie: what your goal is right like. If it's this huge, insurmountable like, you will probably need all of them. If it's a smaller project, you can get away with some of them, and also that moaner. Maybe that's just their pitfall. Is that that? But the rest of them. They have huge qualities that you need to make that project happen. So I think it really depends because I know I've hired. I've definitely hired waivers.
00:49:34.723 --> 00:49:53.820 Angie: Not, and knowing they were waivers, but with the hopes that I could coach them because the rest of their skills and everything else, they brought to the table were so worth it. They were other than that. That was such a good fit, and I will tell you once it worked out tremendously grand slam. Probably my best hire ever.
00:49:54.182 --> 00:50:09.400 Angie: I had another one wasn't like catastrophic, but yeah, it didn't pan out. But for me it was worth the risk because I needed the skills they brought to the table. Even though their personality wasn't ideal. It was, I saw, potential.
00:50:11.220 --> 00:50:21.100 nawtej dosanjh: You know I don't. I think those are both tremendous answers different to to to to one another. I don't think there's a right answer or wrong answer. Go ahead, Bruce.
00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:28.320 Bruce Cramer: Yeah, you know, I do want to add a bit of a plus for the passives I've come across people that
00:50:28.430 --> 00:50:33.219 Bruce Cramer: really are. But it's just that they take longer to process.
00:50:33.740 --> 00:50:34.230 nawtej dosanjh: Yeah.
00:50:34.230 --> 00:50:41.629 Bruce Cramer: You know, they're not as necessarily for lack of a better term. Quick on their feet. However, it's invaluable.
00:50:41.810 --> 00:50:54.590 Bruce Cramer: because once they do process, there may be a golden nugget that nobody on that team thought of, but once they get there, it is worth sharing, and will redirect the outcome of that team.
00:50:54.700 --> 00:50:58.820 Bruce Cramer: So yeah, I you know I don't. You know. I like everybody but the moaners.
00:50:58.820 --> 00:51:02.240 Angie: Sometimes the passives, or even like.
00:51:02.850 --> 00:51:31.769 Angie: or even like them. Even the owners of the waivers, sometimes sometimes that's necessary to keep balance, because there's also such a thing as toxic positivity where everybody's just not living in reality. And we're all happy, happy. We're going to get it done. But it's not going to happen, you know, and nobody's there to point it out, because there was like, it's okay. It's going to be okay. Well, sometimes it's not. And we have to look at. Why not? So we can fix it. So I think that's something for the passive people, too. They're good for balance, you know.
00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:34.000 nawtej dosanjh: So
00:51:34.200 --> 00:51:44.630 nawtej dosanjh: I wanna segue, just from what Angie said Segue neatly, into just our final topic of conversation.
00:51:44.630 --> 00:52:08.530 nawtej dosanjh: which is about just a general outline of how you deal with conflict. So I gave you scenarios, and I think you answered them very well. I was trying to trip you up to be honest, but you know, as usual, you just don't. You don't fall into my traps. But conflict. How have you dealt generally with conflict? And
00:52:08.530 --> 00:52:26.970 nawtej dosanjh: you know, Bruce, you talked about culture setting a tone and a culture from from the start. Angie, you talked about vulnerability, Angie, let me come to you first.st So how? How have you? What's been your growth in terms of dealing with with conflict over the years.
00:52:27.650 --> 00:52:51.010 Angie: So the first, st the thing that leads to every other solution I had was, I had to be honest with myself, that I am the stereotype of a redhead. I am so emotional, I get so upset, I get so mad. I want to call people terrible words that maybe not even Bruce has heard before, and I have to realize that about myself, you know.
00:52:51.010 --> 00:53:15.230 Angie: because for me I had to find my own ways, and this would be a whole nother episode, but of basically 2 things, one finding my way to take the emotion out because I can't be professional. I can't deal with conflict. If I'm emotional people hear what they feel, not what you say. So you really have to make sure the emotions out of it. I had to learn ways
00:53:15.230 --> 00:53:40.209 Angie: tactics to do that for myself. And on the other side I had to basically find a mental suit of armor to put on me, so that when people came at me I could remain calm and be like, okay. My confidence is still intact. I'm not mad. I'm not doubting myself, but I had to find those mindsets and therapeutical ways to get myself ready for that conflict, so I could take the emotion out.
00:53:41.030 --> 00:53:45.319 nawtej dosanjh: I really love your story. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I'm a mean Redneck.
00:53:46.290 --> 00:53:51.239 nawtej dosanjh: No, but I wasn't gonna pick. I was no, no, that was all. You I didn't.
00:53:51.240 --> 00:53:52.780 Angie: Yeah, what do you.
00:53:52.780 --> 00:53:56.109 nawtej dosanjh: She said. I'm a typical reddit. I was thinking, what is she? Gonna say? No, but I didn't.
00:53:57.950 --> 00:54:08.640 nawtej dosanjh: Sure, Bruce Bruce, I've got to turn to you quickly, because we've only got a couple of minutes left. But I do want to hear your your answer. How you've dealt with things in terms of conflict.
00:54:08.940 --> 00:54:26.969 Bruce Cramer: You know, as long as conflict is over differing opinions, it's very much welcome and needed, and as well as if the conflict is being handled with respect and with the eyes of seeking to understand before being understood.
00:54:27.300 --> 00:54:28.929 Bruce Cramer: very welcomed.
00:54:29.050 --> 00:54:56.289 Bruce Cramer: If conflict ever stems, because I just don't want to do it, or I don't want to change, or you know again, that is not tolerated. You can't just beat somebody up and not offer a solution. And again, I don't want anybody beating anybody up, but this is all about offering and contributing potential solutions. If you're just pissing and moaning and not offering up solutions, shut the
00:54:56.420 --> 00:54:58.350 Bruce Cramer: up and get out of here.
00:54:59.125 --> 00:55:01.840 Bruce Cramer: That's what I say, and that's all I.
00:55:01.840 --> 00:55:03.680 Angie: And that's the kind of I love it.
00:55:03.680 --> 00:55:04.530 Angie: You gotta get rid of.
00:55:04.530 --> 00:55:07.290 Bruce Cramer: Tolerate way too much sometimes, and and you can't.
00:55:07.290 --> 00:55:07.760 Angie: I do?
00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:09.219 Bruce Cramer: You'll never move forward.
00:55:10.250 --> 00:55:19.710 nawtej dosanjh: Love it. And I love the fact that you you guys disagreed with each other on some things agreed with each other and other things I just really love that I love, and
00:55:19.710 --> 00:55:40.959 nawtej dosanjh: but neither of you were like, you know, there was kindness. It's not like you would say, well, hey, wait a minute, Bruce. I don't agree with that. I mean, I love the way you are really, genuinely. I always learn a lot from this hour and all the other times we speak in the week. Okay, we've got virtually no time left. One last thing. What's your key? Takeaway, Angie? From from this week.
00:55:42.223 --> 00:55:50.966 Angie: Just that. There's so much more to learn like you said we did. Bruce and I disagree so much more to learn. I like disagreements like this.
00:55:51.990 --> 00:55:54.449 Bruce Cramer: And again, that's how we learn is by.
00:55:54.450 --> 00:55:56.800 Angie: Yeah, it's just different. You know it.
00:55:56.800 --> 00:56:02.138 Bruce Cramer: Because I did like your take on loaners and waivers, even though their ass was out. I do like.
00:56:03.850 --> 00:56:12.130 Bruce Cramer: That's how you learn, and that's the whole purpose. We can agree to disagree. And it's like planting seeds, because now I'll think more about that.
00:56:12.540 --> 00:56:25.339 Angie: And I like what you said. There comes a time. They just got to be out like I drag that time out too much many times, and it's become toxic like you're right, just you know, when it's wrong, you know, when there's no amount of coaching, it's gonna make it a fit.
00:56:26.910 --> 00:56:27.510 Bruce Cramer: And I'll
00:56:27.510 --> 00:56:38.499 Bruce Cramer: to be honest. I saw that I saw the transformation of Hr. In corporate America from 19 seventies up through, you know, I would say to 2020
00:56:38.870 --> 00:56:52.929 Bruce Cramer: dramatically different. As to, you know, because early Hrs, you would go to great extents to make everybody happy. Success. And then pretty soon everybody got on the same page and said, No, we gotta we gotta move forward.
00:56:53.920 --> 00:57:03.300 nawtej dosanjh: Bruce. I'm going to have to cut you there because we are about to end the show. But it's okay, because, Bruce, I want to leave it to you to sort of. Just
00:57:04.120 --> 00:57:20.849 nawtej dosanjh: say goodbye and and thank everybody who's been listening. One because you do so well, and 2. I know you genuinely, are so grateful as are Angie and I. But I just want to leave it to you to sort of do the ending and thank everybody before we sign up.
00:57:20.850 --> 00:57:44.850 Bruce Cramer: Yeah, again. Thank you so much. We continue to be surprised as our viewership is growing, and we can never thank you enough for that. But next week the topic of emotional intelligence that is being beaten to death in the workplace today. And we're going to do just an introductory, an introduction to emotional intelligence next week. What is that? All.
00:57:44.850 --> 00:57:49.189 nawtej dosanjh: Who's leading that? Who's that? Who's that? Is that Bruce or you, Angie?
00:57:49.330 --> 00:57:51.450 nawtej dosanjh: It's Bruce. Okay. Can't wait.
00:57:52.080 --> 00:57:52.570 Angie: Yeah.
00:57:52.570 --> 00:57:54.289 nawtej dosanjh: God wait! Thank you!
00:57:54.290 --> 00:57:57.669 Bruce Cramer: Because I was so poor at it. Early in my career I had none.
00:58:00.170 --> 00:58:01.700 nawtej dosanjh: Thank you. Bruce. Thank you.
00:58:01.700 --> 00:58:02.190 Bruce Cramer: Alrighty!
00:58:02.190 --> 00:58:10.389 nawtej dosanjh: And Jesse. It's over now for us from us, and we will see you next week. Jesse, take us away.
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