Tuesdays: 5:00pm - 6:00pm (EST)
EPISODE SUMMARY:
What do you do when you are part of a marginalized group trying to make a greater impact but your own community is imploding? This is unfortunately not uncommon in today's public cancel culture and polarized black-and-white society. In this episode, we unpack when it's toxic and when it's simply constructive feedback and how you can handle it.
WHAT YOU WILL LEARN:
How do we distinguish toxicity from supportive critical feedback? What can people from marginalized underrepresented communities who are passionate about making a great impact do to avoid or address this situation in an empowering way? Is it possible to turn this into an empowering experience? We will learn how to maintain a healthy community culture that centers social justice without de-stabilizing its community members.
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ABOUT OUR GUEST:
Kim A. Case, Ph.D. is a social psychologist and tenured Professor of Psychology, as well as affiliate Professor of Gender, Sexuality, and Women’s Studies, at Virginia Commonwealth University. As a mixed-methods social psychologist, she applies critical theories to examine how social justice academics and underrepresented scholars contribute to intentional creation of inclusive spaces within workplace and educational settings. Currently, Dr. Case's research focuses on the systemic impact of workplace cultural mismatch on how social justice academics navigate job demands with particular attention to health, performance, and retention outcomes. Her research investigates how dominant cultural norms and applied practices result in exclusionary or inclusive experiences for scholars deeply involved in DEIA (diversity equity inclusion accessibility), for example, by invalidating or rewarding DEIA work in faculty promotion. Her national and international faculty development work (www.drkimcase.com) including her Enough Y’all podcast and consulting, focuses on support for social justice academics tackling topics such as job crafting, values alignment, invisible labor, self-worth in the academy, imposter feelings, and toxic people. On the fun side, Dr. Case can be described as a karaoke addict, working-class academic, Appalachian clogger, crocheter, kitty momma, and aspiring student of Spanish.
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IF YOU ENJOYED THIS EPISODE, CAN I ASK A FAVOR?
We do not receive any funding or sponsorship for this podcast. If you learned something and feel others could also benefit, please leave a positive review. Every review helps amplify our work and visibility. This is especially helpful for small women-owned boot-strapped businesses. Simply go to the bottom of the Apple Podcast page to enter a review. Thank you!
***
LINKS MENTIONED IN EPISODE:
Guest LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drkimcase/
Guest Website: www.drkimcase.com
Our website: www.gotowerscope.com
:#ToxicSocialJusticeCannibalism #ConstructiveFeedback #MakingAnImpact #TheHardSkills
Tune in for this empowering conversation at TalkRadio.nyc
00:00:51.930 --> 00:01:08.850 Mira Brancu: Hi, it's Dr. Jamir, Bronco, host of the hard skills. And today we're talking with Guest expert, Dr. Kim Case, who will help us figure out what to do when you are part of a marginalized group trying to make a greater impact. But your own community is imploding.
00:01:09.050 --> 00:01:10.429 Mira Brancu: How does that happen?
00:01:10.600 --> 00:01:17.220 Mira Brancu: How can we minimize the chance of it happening? It's perfect for Season five's focus on making a greater impact
00:01:17.500 --> 00:01:22.029 Mira Brancu: on this show. We discuss how to develop the nuanced hard skills
00:01:22.310 --> 00:01:24.989 Mira Brancu: meaning the most challenging soft skills
00:01:25.050 --> 00:01:28.150 Mira Brancu: needed to make a real impact through your leadership.
00:01:28.220 --> 00:01:45.620 Mira Brancu: I'm a leadership consulting and coaching psychologist, a group and team facilitator, an associate professor, psychology, today, columnist, author of the Millennials Guide to workplace politics and had my own leadership career before transitioning to helping teams and high achieving women navigate their leadership complexities.
00:01:45.800 --> 00:01:52.040 Mira Brancu: And before I introduce you to our special guest, I wanted to announce that for the next 2 weeks
00:01:52.300 --> 00:02:18.890 Mira Brancu: we have opened up a new 10 week leadership accelerator called fuel. Yes, we have to have an acronym, of course, which stands for focused, unstoppable, empowered leadership. It's made for high performing high achiever misfits who have a hard time with pacing and overdoing things and standing out maybe in ways they don't want to right now, but with a little bit more intention and strategy they will stand out in all the right ways
00:02:19.040 --> 00:02:20.849 Mira Brancu: to their next leadership role.
00:02:21.200 --> 00:02:24.689 Mira Brancu: even if they haven't identified what that role is yet.
00:02:24.940 --> 00:02:27.254 Mira Brancu: Kim, is that resonating for you.
00:02:27.640 --> 00:02:32.133 Kim Case: I'm sorry. Did you write that like Kim Case needs to do? Give me a break. I feel triggered.
00:02:33.230 --> 00:02:49.710 Mira Brancu: Now we have only 5 slots open. You can learn more and enroll by September 19th by going to go towerscope.com clicking on leadership community programs. And then fuel. We start September 23rd and would love to have you part of it.
00:02:49.900 --> 00:03:18.330 Mira Brancu: Okay? With no further ado, I'm excited to introduce our special guest today. Dr. Kim case Kim is a social psychologist and tenured professor of psychology, as well as an affiliate professor of gender sexuality and Women's studies at Virginia Commonwealth University, where she examines how social justice, academics, and underrepresented scholars contribute to the intentional creation of inclusive spaces within workplace and educational settings.
00:03:18.520 --> 00:03:26.210 Mira Brancu: Currently, she's researching the systemic impact of workplace cultural mismatch on how social justice academics navigate.
00:03:26.380 --> 00:03:50.439 Mira Brancu: Job demands with particular attention to health performance and retention outcomes. She is also a podcast host. The podcast called enough y'all podcast love, the name and provides consulting on support, for social justice, academics, tackling topics, such as job crafting values, alignment, invisible labor, self worth impostor feelings and toxic people
00:03:50.780 --> 00:03:56.020 Mira Brancu: on the fun side. Dr. Case can be described as a karaoke addict.
00:03:56.080 --> 00:04:05.540 Mira Brancu: a working class, academic, an Appalachian clogger, a crocheter, a Kitty mama, and aspiring student of Spanish welcome on the show. Kim.
00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:10.760 Kim Case: Well, thank you so much. We like to have a little fun, you know. Not be so serious all the time.
00:04:10.760 --> 00:04:20.832 Mira Brancu: Absolutely, and your world, it can be fairly serious. And this topic can be fairly serious. So we definitely like to balance that out. Now
00:04:21.269 --> 00:04:38.743 Mira Brancu: you wrote this super interesting paper. I'm obsessed with it. Okay, it's called. Actually, it's not a paper. It's a chapter in a book. So I'd love to hear about the book. The the chapter itself is called Unpacking Toxic social justice, cannibalism. The call is from calling from inside the house.
00:04:39.080 --> 00:04:41.996 Kim Case: Yeah, anybody loves eighties, horror movies by any chance.
00:04:42.740 --> 00:04:43.270 Mira Brancu: My daughter.
00:04:43.270 --> 00:04:43.870 Kim Case: I bet.
00:04:43.870 --> 00:04:44.970 Mira Brancu: Love zone.
00:04:45.313 --> 00:04:51.380 Mira Brancu: What led you to write on this topic? What's the actual? The book itself about? Why this topic right now.
00:04:51.730 --> 00:04:56.343 Kim Case: Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm a mirror fan, girl. So this is a huge moment.
00:04:56.915 --> 00:04:57.230 Mira Brancu: Brandon.
00:04:57.230 --> 00:05:05.889 Kim Case: Anybody who does watch the zoom background is the book from the book that's going to be coming out. But it's just in production at Rutledge right now, so it might be like a year.
00:05:06.273 --> 00:05:28.330 Kim Case: And I will give a shout out to my Co. Editor, Leah Warner, at Rama Poe College of New Jersey, and the book's title. I'll just say that, and we'll get into the you know the meat. But the book will be called creating a faculty activism commons for social justice which means like a shared space to talk about faculty activism. Subtitle gotta have one of those finding hope in the messy truth, and that's really what we wanted to be. The main title.
00:05:28.330 --> 00:05:29.460 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:05:29.460 --> 00:05:31.917 Kim Case: There's just it is a mess. It's a mess.
00:05:32.300 --> 00:05:42.954 Kim Case: but I'll say the chapter in particular being about social justice spaces, and when those might present challenges in and of themselves, like, for example, infighting. And things like that.
00:05:43.460 --> 00:06:07.760 Kim Case: is really relevant beyond, like a faculty activism role. It'd be any sort of social justice community, really, or if you're trying to do equity work in healthcare, or if you're trying to do you know, advance diversity in leadership within your your corporation institution governmental, you know, nonprofit, whatever it might be. So in terms of the topic, I think it's a broader than that. What led me to write on the topic. Okay? So
00:06:08.410 --> 00:06:20.599 Kim Case: either, you know, there's like what I watched happening with my peers and people that I knew admired, worked with, but also then later, coached or consulted with, it would probably be more accurate to say.
00:06:20.850 --> 00:06:34.219 Kim Case: and there's my personal experiences. So being sort of a career coach and peer supporter of these social justice academics specifically. But, like I said, the context, I think, where it applies is broader.
00:06:34.410 --> 00:06:47.486 Kim Case: was about 14 years of me, watching like painful experiences of them, going through like shock and confusion, and being disoriented, and feeling alone, and and then like anxious and burning out and talking about leaving
00:06:48.010 --> 00:07:01.119 Kim Case: whatever space it may be that a department, an entire institution, leave Academia altogether or withdrawal like from social justice movements they are part of, and when I say that I really do mean it broadly, like it could be
00:07:01.190 --> 00:07:20.449 Kim Case: trying to work on recruiting more students of color into their undergrad program, or it could be, you know, trying to get more 1st generation services on their campus, or it could be you know, trying to put together more resources for underrepresented faculty and staff. You know it could be change of policy. Lots of different different things fall into this. But
00:07:20.730 --> 00:07:25.545 Kim Case: as people are sort of having these experiences, and they're deciding that it's too
00:07:26.410 --> 00:07:51.190 Kim Case: it's untenable for their mental health, for their physical health. And so we're losing people, and that's of concern to me. So I realized that no one seems to be really writing about it or naming it. It may be happening in little pockets. But like within the literature, there wasn't really naming. There's there's some research and writing on academic bullying, but that's about as close as it gets. Cause. That's really not what we're talking about. Specifically, we're talking about like
00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:55.189 Kim Case: any group that is trying to make progress on an issue.
00:07:55.780 --> 00:07:58.250 Kim Case: And what happens when they turn on each other right.
00:07:58.250 --> 00:08:01.889 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Yeah. And I resonate a lot because
00:08:02.374 --> 00:08:06.865 Mira Brancu: I I never had a word for it. But looking back,
00:08:07.270 --> 00:08:27.620 Mira Brancu: I had experienced several situations like this where I was part of a community. And this, like you said, it doesn't have to be within the academic world. It happens well beyond those borders. I am kind of a serial community membership, you know. Person. I'm part of lots of groups
00:08:27.890 --> 00:08:46.639 Mira Brancu: and and for the longest time I was hesitant to start my own community because of my own experiences. I was so afraid of causing harm and damage because of the experiences that I had in other communities that had good intention, but still blew up, you know, and these were like
00:08:47.495 --> 00:08:49.099 Mira Brancu: communities set up
00:08:49.130 --> 00:08:53.230 Mira Brancu: for to support women in entrepreneurship. For example.
00:08:53.230 --> 00:08:53.610 Kim Case: That's right.
00:08:53.610 --> 00:09:00.570 Mira Brancu: And watching it implode, and how awful that was! And even me trying to contribute
00:09:01.420 --> 00:09:11.459 Mira Brancu: within, like Dei committees as part of a larger community. And you know, feeling like
00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:20.210 Mira Brancu: I didn't have, I didn't always have the support and I was experiencing pylons and attacks and
00:09:20.310 --> 00:09:28.450 Mira Brancu: completely unnecessary. And when you think about just like community itself, the word community, we join it because we're looking for connection.
00:09:28.780 --> 00:09:31.040 Mira Brancu: And we're we're looking for belonging.
00:09:31.110 --> 00:09:32.369 Mira Brancu: So if you don't get.
00:09:32.370 --> 00:09:34.910 Kim Case: Inside the word. That's right.
00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:42.730 Mira Brancu: Right. So if you don't experience that, think about the trauma, the damage that it has, and you described it really well that, like
00:09:43.160 --> 00:09:50.699 Mira Brancu: the trauma, the impact, the damage that it has is people leaving. Yeah, something that like could be of good or could have been.
00:09:51.030 --> 00:09:54.089 Kim Case: That's why I think it needs to be taken seriously. Because, yeah.
00:09:54.170 --> 00:10:05.959 Kim Case: not only do people leave maybe that space where that's happening, but then they might not start up some cool thing later, because you just said you were hesitant to do your really awesome work, and then we wouldn't have that
00:10:06.040 --> 00:10:21.320 Kim Case: in the world contributing to helping people move along through less harm, more effectively realizing their gifts that they want to bring right like we would, we would be robbed of people doing untold amount of things that haven't been imagined yet, because they've gone through something like this.
00:10:21.490 --> 00:10:22.060 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:10:22.230 --> 00:10:31.349 Kim Case: So I don't want that to be the case. I mean it is the case. But I'd like to reduce it, and I'd also like to bring this to light a little bit more, because.
00:10:31.660 --> 00:10:45.160 Kim Case: you know, when we don't have a name for something, we don't know how to analyze it, or it could give us more of a space to analyze it or think. Could it have been that thing that has a label now? Or maybe it's not that. But now I have words for it, and other people can sort of
00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:50.870 Kim Case: understand what I mean. If I use this phrase, course that would have to. That would take a while, maybe to to get out there. But
00:10:50.990 --> 00:10:53.820 Kim Case: I had my 1st encounter in
00:10:54.900 --> 00:10:59.900 Kim Case: in my professional role life right like in grad and doctoral when I was a doctoral program and
00:11:00.560 --> 00:11:25.289 Kim Case: a woman I worked with for like 2 years on anti-racism work. A white woman. We were working on white anti white women. Anti-racism, specifically showed up to one of our discussion groups one day and just laid into me, yelling at me, asking me questions, but not letting me answer, interrupting me, talking over me, assassinating my character, calling my integrity into question, and these were all things that
00:11:25.500 --> 00:11:30.549 Kim Case: I never knew. She even had on her mind like we'd never had any encounter where she asked me a question about it.
00:11:30.827 --> 00:11:38.799 Kim Case: Offered a different perspective of how to proceed about how we put our group together. Right? It just sort of blew up out of nowhere as far as I, as far as I knew, and
00:11:39.830 --> 00:11:47.250 Kim Case: it wasn't a growth response. It wasn't a response of like, well, maybe Kim needs to think about this differently, and I have another perspective. It was
00:11:47.350 --> 00:11:51.790 Kim Case: assassinate character. Blow up the the group.
00:11:52.423 --> 00:11:56.859 Kim Case: Cause a scene, humiliate me in public, and then storm out.
00:11:57.060 --> 00:12:18.369 Kim Case: so I didn't have any words for any of this right? I mean the the stun of that moment has still stuck with me like I can feel it in my bones right now talking about it. And so from there. I wrote about a little bit in the chapter how I really didn't learn from that. I didn't learn what it was. And then some other experiences later on, kind of brought that back. But
00:12:18.781 --> 00:12:21.949 Kim Case: yeah. So I figured we need to be talking about this a little bit more.
00:12:21.950 --> 00:12:36.173 Mira Brancu: Yeah, absolutely. And and often I feel like, people are more empowered to. Look for it to identify it, and then to know what to do with it once there is kind of some term. So let's start there like what is
00:12:37.170 --> 00:12:42.440 Mira Brancu: In what situations is this more likely to happen. What does it look like? What, what do people look for?
00:12:43.210 --> 00:12:45.000 Kim Case: Yeah, I feel like.
00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:47.589 Kim Case: really anywhere humans are. But since.
00:12:48.220 --> 00:12:48.910 Kim Case: and big.
00:12:48.910 --> 00:12:49.610 Mira Brancu: Yeah, and.
00:12:49.610 --> 00:13:01.170 Kim Case: In this particular phrasing and labeling we're trying to look at. How is it that spaces where people are trying to advance? I'll just include diversity, equity, inclusion belonging
00:13:01.800 --> 00:13:05.329 Kim Case: social justice. You know anything under that umbrella?
00:13:05.842 --> 00:13:13.657 Kim Case: Small, or, you know, statewide, or however big you want to go right. But it could just be like your your corner, and that's fine.
00:13:14.230 --> 00:13:22.409 Kim Case: There there will be. If there's more than one human, there may be moments when they don't necessarily agree on how to approach something, or.
00:13:22.890 --> 00:13:35.119 Kim Case: you know, the right terminology to use, or where to focus the energy, who should do what? Who should be a leader who should be in charge of this and that and the other thing
00:13:35.530 --> 00:13:45.209 Kim Case: and I think that because these I'm gonna just call them social justice spaces, because social justice spaces are made of people who
00:13:45.280 --> 00:14:00.240 Kim Case: in other realms of their life, whether it's their their workplace or another space in their workplace, like maybe they are on a Dei committee, or they're in a department that maybe is an ethnic studies or women's studies, or more focused on social justice issues in that way.
00:14:00.890 --> 00:14:16.510 Kim Case: Other spaces in that workplace maybe, don't value that as much, and they are invalidated, delegitimized, rendered invisible for all the extra labor they're doing actually discriminated against actively experience, constant microaggressions. Right? So
00:14:16.630 --> 00:14:22.710 Kim Case: a lot of times, I think that what happens is all of that frustration and very valid
00:14:22.730 --> 00:14:26.579 Kim Case: feeling. Anger and
00:14:27.590 --> 00:14:36.139 Kim Case: you know that people are sort of taking from you and not seeing you and those kinds of experiences. Then, when we come into these social justice spaces.
00:14:36.160 --> 00:14:46.770 Kim Case: It may be the only space people feel like they can speak up, you know. Actually, you know, share an alternative perspective. But it's not necessarily done always in the way that invites
00:14:47.412 --> 00:14:57.587 Kim Case: people to be heard, or to have the other person listen, or for it to be effective if you want behavior, change in another human or another set of humans, or if you want to
00:14:58.560 --> 00:15:05.890 Kim Case: influence, maybe a direction of a group which wouldn't, you know, require other humans to be on board with what you're suggesting? Right?
00:15:06.190 --> 00:15:14.950 Kim Case: All that's behavior change. But I think a lot of things blow up because people are so frustrated from other spaces in their lives. So it's really, I think.
00:15:15.050 --> 00:15:22.359 Kim Case: a microcosm example of how systemic oppression treats people. And then, ironically and sadly, I think
00:15:23.110 --> 00:15:27.330 Kim Case: we members of the community sometimes can enact that on each other.
00:15:27.470 --> 00:15:29.149 Kim Case: in the, in the
00:15:29.270 --> 00:15:31.219 Kim Case: under the guise of
00:15:31.710 --> 00:15:35.500 Kim Case: wanting to do the social justice. We can tear each other apart.
00:15:35.500 --> 00:15:36.579 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah.
00:15:36.580 --> 00:15:43.529 Kim Case: Permission. If you say it's because it, I'm doing it because I care about the cause. And I'm telling you how horrible you are.
00:15:43.530 --> 00:16:11.609 Mira Brancu: Right? Right? Let's hold on to that for just a second, because I really want to dig into that. And we're reaching an ad break. So we're going to have people hold until we get back from the Ad break. You are listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Bronku and our guest today, Dr. Kim Case, we air on Tuesdays at 5 pm. Eastern. If you'd like to join our online audience and ask questions that we can answer in real time on Linkedin or youtube@talkradio.nyc, please do so. We will answer.
00:16:11.610 --> 00:16:14.600 Mira Brancu: We will be right back with our guests in just a moment.
00:18:26.170 --> 00:18:32.200 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Bronku and our guest today, Dr. Kim Case.
00:18:32.430 --> 00:18:36.180 Mira Brancu: And we are talking about this
00:18:36.610 --> 00:18:49.219 Mira Brancu: social justice, cannibalism, what it looks like. How to minimize it. And you wrote something I want to read in your chapter that I just I really want to unpack here. So you wrote.
00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:59.210 Mira Brancu: academic socialization pushes us to pretend social justice. Cannibalism does not happen. Keep it in the family, absorb the pain.
00:18:59.250 --> 00:19:05.449 Mira Brancu: push forward as if we're all united and never reveal discontent within our communities.
00:19:05.600 --> 00:19:08.820 Mira Brancu: We encourage each other to decenter ourselves.
00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:16.299 Mira Brancu: or decenter the self to such an extreme that we lose the ability to identify our own mistreatment.
00:19:16.510 --> 00:19:18.570 Mira Brancu: And when you were describing
00:19:19.109 --> 00:19:40.239 Mira Brancu: what it looks like to for somebody from a marginalized and background, who probably already has experienced, you know, traumatic experiences within an organizational structure and and coming back to the community and that it might be in my my words the only safe space
00:19:40.490 --> 00:19:41.550 Mira Brancu: to just
00:19:41.850 --> 00:19:47.689 Mira Brancu: be authentic. Be true, be angry, you know all of that. I I started thinking
00:19:48.020 --> 00:19:50.027 Mira Brancu: of that sort of
00:19:50.740 --> 00:20:17.159 Mira Brancu: relationship to family right when when people come home and they like, let everything out. And you're like, why are you taking it out on me right, and it's the only safe space to do so. And when you wrote this, that's what I was starting to. Well, actually wrote like, keep it in the family absorb the pain. Push forward. So. What is this socialization about, and what? How? How do we end up accepting mistreatment amongst ourselves?
00:20:17.310 --> 00:20:30.980 Kim Case: Yeah, I mean, there's so much. And you know, I know that you are really good, good, and strong proponent of remind us of complexity. And I really appreciate that about you. Because I think what happens, too, is oversimplification as part of this process.
00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:49.630 Kim Case: For example, and I'll get come back to that fundamental attribution. Error is something for people to keep in mind. As a social psychologist. I have to pump that up because we are very much in this culture in particular, trained to notice. I see, Mira, I see Mira do a behavior. That's because mirror. I don't like that behavior. And Mira is a bad person.
00:20:50.080 --> 00:21:00.409 Kim Case: So the connection between I didn't like the behavior of yours, and something's wrong with you is fundamental attribution, error. We are not necessarily looking at the context, and how the social forces.
00:21:00.420 --> 00:21:10.049 Kim Case: and how so many interesting intersecting systems of oppression also and privilege are at play, and it's not necessarily just that individual, but
00:21:10.840 --> 00:21:24.370 Kim Case: part of that socialization. There's sort of the societal socialization. And then I'll come back to that in a second. But the academic socialization process training, doctoral students and faculty. And then what goes on until you're retired
00:21:24.590 --> 00:21:26.510 Kim Case: is that
00:21:27.780 --> 00:21:35.559 Kim Case: this kind of arguing remains invisible. I think, in the also in the faculty consciousness. I don't think we realize it's happening.
00:21:35.780 --> 00:21:36.860 Kim Case: And
00:21:37.070 --> 00:21:59.969 Kim Case: the social justice piece of it is that you're always supposed to be united. So when I was in a women's studies program at another another university, it was very much like, you know we don't. We don't talk about this outside of this room because we don't want to give the institution a reason to dismantle us or critique us further or pull resources which we didn't even have resources. Where were they? Gonna pull them? But you know, it's just this there's a fear based
00:22:00.350 --> 00:22:20.310 Kim Case: probably pretty valid fear based response, which is, we're under threat all the time. So we can't. Everyone needs to make sure that we are united when we go outside of here. So, and and even within the circle, talking to another person that witnessed maybe a more toxic kind of behavior probably wouldn't go well.
00:22:20.370 --> 00:22:23.800 Kim Case: because the idea is we don't. We don't acknowledge that
00:22:23.850 --> 00:22:29.400 Kim Case: because we're all just trying to do our best. And that's very true, right? And I think that
00:22:29.610 --> 00:22:36.589 Kim Case: the idea is, if you speak up about that, you speaking up about it is the problem, but not the person's behavior is the problem
00:22:36.730 --> 00:22:40.589 Kim Case: which is interesting, right? It makes me think about things like talking about race
00:22:40.610 --> 00:22:50.290 Kim Case: bring talking about sexual assault, talking about, you know, intimate partner violence, or bringing up any system of oppression. People get more upset with the fact that you're naming it.
00:22:50.850 --> 00:22:53.870 Kim Case: Then how do we address the actual behavior that's
00:22:53.910 --> 00:22:59.299 Kim Case: happening? Because if if we acknowledge that you're bringing it up and we have to do something about it, too, right?
00:22:59.300 --> 00:23:00.540 Mira Brancu: Yeah, so.
00:23:00.540 --> 00:23:12.908 Kim Case: The other piece would be social identity based socialization, right? So gender socialization, socialization for many communities of color. Within the Us context at least, and also
00:23:13.430 --> 00:23:19.439 Kim Case: working class background, I would say, lower to even lower middle income backgrounds.
00:23:19.460 --> 00:23:32.770 Kim Case: And there may be other groups, I would say someone who might be an immigrant or someone who speaks with an accent that feels like, maybe the message from society is, you should be quiet, and it's, you know. So there's some gender implications there for me, like
00:23:33.040 --> 00:23:42.889 Kim Case: and working class implications that you know what I'm experiencing isn't worthy of a voice necessarily and so, and I think within social justice circles.
00:23:43.620 --> 00:23:49.960 Kim Case: any focus on the self is considered selfish. When a focus on the self could be protecting
00:23:50.190 --> 00:23:52.180 Kim Case: your mental health.
00:23:52.270 --> 00:23:58.890 Kim Case: and that shouldn't be considered selfish. So we go a little too far with some of the messages, I think, and no one says.
00:23:59.310 --> 00:24:02.492 Kim Case: you know. Let us abuse you. Be quiet.
00:24:03.420 --> 00:24:14.000 Kim Case: But these things happen, and then it's like a there's no, there's no bystander to say, hey, we shouldn't treat that person that way. It just all sort of becomes part of the culture.
00:24:14.296 --> 00:24:24.520 Kim Case: And I think that it'd be really nice if we could be clear that, allowing yourself to be harmed actually does hurt the overall social justice goals. And it's been sort of flipped into this myth that
00:24:24.890 --> 00:24:29.169 Kim Case: you should allow yourself to be harmed, and that is good for social justice to continue.
00:24:29.170 --> 00:24:47.620 Mira Brancu: Hmm, that is very complex, very so. For those of you who may have sort of like missed. Some of these social psychology constructs fundamental attribution, error. So she described this, this is when we might give ourselves grace.
00:24:47.965 --> 00:25:07.300 Mira Brancu: If we make a mistake, it's because of contextual issues and you know, understandable. But if somebody else makes a mistake, the same mistake, we don't give them as much grace. We might judge them for their character and make it more globally about their personality, or they're just to, or whatever it is.
00:25:08.290 --> 00:25:09.420 Mira Brancu: the other.
00:25:09.917 --> 00:25:27.780 Mira Brancu: You mentioned socialization like, how we grow up, what we're learning about our identity, the messages that we're told about what's acceptable, what's not acceptable. And then I might add one more to that the way when you were describing like bringing in all of this sort of like pent up
00:25:27.780 --> 00:25:42.029 Mira Brancu: upsetness right into a community. You know, projection is another concept where the the things that we feel so negatively about we don't want to feel anymore. So we put it on others so they can hold it.
00:25:42.060 --> 00:25:45.290 Mira Brancu: And again, none of this is
00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:49.100 Mira Brancu: healthy for anybody, right? Like we all suffer.
00:25:49.130 --> 00:25:49.785 Mira Brancu: And
00:25:50.780 --> 00:26:12.979 Mira Brancu: as as we're talking about this one of the the things I'm curious about. Just this morning. Just this morning I was listening to Adam Grant's new rethinking podcast and he was interviewing Danielle Allen, a political scientist, and she was talking about the challenge of having important discourse on college campuses, and how difficult it is
00:26:13.220 --> 00:26:19.409 Mira Brancu: because and this is sort of like what she was explaining. We have a culture of accusation
00:26:19.890 --> 00:26:22.609 Mira Brancu: versus a culture of cooperation.
00:26:22.980 --> 00:26:30.090 Mira Brancu: And then he mentioned the additional problem of courtroom reasoning. So, having to debate and win
00:26:30.310 --> 00:26:36.589 Mira Brancu: versus Socratic questioning, which is learning and openness and curiosity.
00:26:36.740 --> 00:26:41.770 Mira Brancu: I'm curious if that's kind of a yet another layer that you see playing in.
00:26:41.930 --> 00:26:52.649 Kim Case: I do. I think the projection piece fits well with it's not just projection onto anyone else. It's projected onto other people who we either feel similar power to, or more power than right.
00:26:52.970 --> 00:27:05.154 Kim Case: Back to? Where is it safe in your job to act out like this? And you know, and the whole idea like, if you, you know, get pulled over a police officer. You don't scream at that person, but you go home and scream at someone like you were kind of mentioning earlier.
00:27:05.450 --> 00:27:08.425 Kim Case: And I think that
00:27:09.910 --> 00:27:12.510 Kim Case: What was the thing? What was the atom? Remind me? What was the.
00:27:12.510 --> 00:27:16.290 Mira Brancu: Oh, he mentioned. The problem of courtroom reasoning.
00:27:16.290 --> 00:27:19.749 Kim Case: Oh, goodness, be curious, not judgmental
00:27:19.800 --> 00:27:26.550 Kim Case: is not something we default to right. And I think definitely, with this concept of social justice, cannibalism.
00:27:26.560 --> 00:27:33.539 Kim Case: Many of these moments are knee jerk kind of attacks at people, and if in those moments people could take a step back.
00:27:33.570 --> 00:27:41.040 Kim Case: I've I mean, you know I have. Have I always done a good job of giving feedback? No. So in those moments, if I had taken a step back and said, Okay.
00:27:42.260 --> 00:27:48.537 Kim Case: why am I feeling like this needs to be right? The second, maybe I didn't like the terminology that person used. Maybe they need a little update.
00:27:48.980 --> 00:28:05.713 Kim Case: how do I think about how they might hear that? Well, I understand, maybe, that no one's ever told them right? Think about the context. What is it about the social context that I am not realizing. And it's not that this person doesn't want to update their language is that maybe they haven't heard yet that this is maybe this new way to talk about this
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:14.940 Kim Case: and you know I was in a committee meeting once where someone used what I would consider a pretty outdated slur and had to think through. Well, how am I gonna
00:28:14.950 --> 00:28:18.020 Kim Case: approach that? Am I going to publicly call this person out in the middle of a meeting
00:28:18.170 --> 00:28:29.360 Kim Case: might not be the best route right? And so, if we could think more like, how can I ask the person questions like, hey? Have you heard about this other thing that people are saying? Ask curious questions versus
00:28:29.450 --> 00:28:33.949 Kim Case: you are in trouble. You are a bad person. You have harmed everyone.
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:38.745 Kim Case: You should know better. A lot of accusatory character attacks.
00:28:39.250 --> 00:28:42.829 Kim Case: you clearly don't care about this group of people because of these things, you said.
00:28:43.790 --> 00:28:47.780 Kim Case: Really, the question is, and we can come to it later, obviously is, do you want to be effective?
00:28:48.710 --> 00:28:51.669 Kim Case: Do you want to be effective in communicating with this person.
00:28:52.070 --> 00:28:54.540 Kim Case: Do you want to be effective in social justice?
00:28:54.895 --> 00:28:58.149 Kim Case: Whatever issue is you're working on like moving that along.
00:29:00.100 --> 00:29:06.430 Kim Case: Then the question of how we approach those moments is not the same, but the answer to that is not the same.
00:29:06.430 --> 00:29:08.110 Mira Brancu: Yeah, you're right. I
00:29:08.860 --> 00:29:10.300 Mira Brancu: I am
00:29:10.550 --> 00:29:12.949 Mira Brancu: reflecting on how
00:29:13.490 --> 00:29:22.229 Mira Brancu: part of this is, just how quick to judge and to blame we all are, and when we're hurt
00:29:22.550 --> 00:29:26.509 Mira Brancu: because of other reasons, we're probably more quick
00:29:26.610 --> 00:29:31.700 Mira Brancu: to judge and blame because we don't want any more hurt.
00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:37.679 Mira Brancu: But you're right that like, Will, will we come off as effective in
00:29:38.140 --> 00:29:47.769 Mira Brancu: changing that paradigm, changing the outcome that we don't want to see anymore. If we're going to do that. And and so there's also
00:29:48.895 --> 00:29:50.969 Mira Brancu: when we come back, I
00:29:51.020 --> 00:29:56.699 Mira Brancu: from from this next outbreak. I also want to sort of think about that, like the
00:29:57.140 --> 00:30:02.829 Mira Brancu: in motivational interviewing. There's a concept called the writing reflex. A a
00:30:03.020 --> 00:30:07.830 Mira Brancu: problem we have with needing to be right and correcting other people
00:30:07.860 --> 00:30:09.080 Mira Brancu: as like
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:12.919 Mira Brancu: It feels so good when we just.
00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:13.520 Kim Case: Mean? It has.
00:30:13.520 --> 00:30:13.910 Mira Brancu: And you.
00:30:13.910 --> 00:30:15.569 Kim Case: No boost to it. There.
00:30:15.570 --> 00:30:25.010 Mira Brancu: Is, there is. But by by correcting and writing people there is a lot of one upping yourself and one downing somebody else.
00:30:25.150 --> 00:30:33.329 Mira Brancu: And so that takes away from again the entire point of community connection relationship, that kind of thing. So what
00:30:34.140 --> 00:30:44.059 Mira Brancu: gonna stop right there before we get to the odd break we'll return. You're listening to the heart skills with me, Dr. Mirabrancho and our guest today, Dr. Kim case, and we'll be right back in just a moment.
00:32:45.820 --> 00:32:52.300 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mirabranku and our guest today, Dr. Kim Case.
00:32:52.390 --> 00:32:53.070 Mira Brancu: So
00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:58.209 Mira Brancu: we were starting to talk about
00:32:58.280 --> 00:32:59.899 Mira Brancu: the writing reflex.
00:33:00.353 --> 00:33:07.440 Mira Brancu: And we've had a a note, a lot of like interesting back and forth behind the scenes. Chat conversations.
00:33:08.104 --> 00:33:12.099 Mira Brancu: That I want to bring forward for the audience
00:33:12.180 --> 00:33:20.030 Mira Brancu: and so so let's walk backward a little bit and describe what qualifies
00:33:20.220 --> 00:33:22.359 Mira Brancu: as this sort of
00:33:22.699 --> 00:33:33.890 Mira Brancu: toxic social justice, cannibalism and then we can sort of move forward through like, how do we end up in this place, and where where we see it in different spaces? And why.
00:33:33.890 --> 00:33:43.850 Kim Case: Yeah, fair. I mean writing this chapter was not easy. So hard skills fit. My beautiful, wonderful, brilliant Co. Editor kept saying to me
00:33:44.100 --> 00:34:04.820 Kim Case: right. But could it just be feedback? And so I was like, right? Right? So how do we make sure we're looking at like what is constructive feedback. What are those characteristics look like? And what is something that might be called toxic toxic approach to feedback, which I would call this, you know, cannibalism piece. And so what I came to, and I don't have the whole list here, but kind of some categories.
00:34:05.460 --> 00:34:29.889 Kim Case: some things to ask yourself, because you. This is not permission to be like, no feedback is ever valid. I never do anything wrong. I never need to grow. I don't listen to people anymore. I could just say, Kim said, it's cannibalism. No. So you really have to walk through some steps and say, is someone, for example, is someone attacking? My character is someone attacking my social identity or intersectional identities. Those things should be off the table.
00:34:29.889 --> 00:34:55.010 Kim Case: Right? If you want to talk to someone about what behavior is happening. That's not the same as attacking their character, integrity, their soul, their values. How they, even, you know, exist as a human being through their own identities. That should be a sign that maybe you're talking about cannibalism stuff. Okay, 3 major categories. Beyond that is, is it self serving is someone coming to you, and it's a self serving kind of
00:34:55.250 --> 00:35:00.180 Kim Case: moment for them. The person that's giving you this this feedback, whether it's toxic or not.
00:35:00.200 --> 00:35:18.194 Kim Case: Are they engaging in a woke Olympics. Are they doing a competition with you? I know better. I'm more of an ally than you. I'm more of a social justice, you know, effective. You know, community committee, member, community member, nonprofit member than you. I do antiracism the right way. You do it the wrong way.
00:35:18.930 --> 00:35:41.200 Kim Case: are they attacking your credentials and and saying their credentials are the only ones that can be correct. Right? So that fits with your writing kind of idea. Some of this stuff can be personality sometimes. But I would just say that we all have personality characteristics that maybe need to be tweaked right. Another big piece, and maybe it should be the 1st one is control. So if someone comes to you and says.
00:35:41.410 --> 00:35:43.100 Kim Case: unless you do, X,
00:35:43.690 --> 00:35:57.209 Kim Case: you are bad and wrong, and you are a horrible social justice advocate. Unless you do this thing that I'm telling you. You must do. Take this action right now, and I've had this happen to me. You are now no longer part of the crew. That is social justicey.
00:35:57.866 --> 00:36:10.673 Kim Case: So ultimatums are control, right? And that's that's power moves. That's not an invitation to reflect. You can tell the difference between those 2 things. If there's a tone of my way or the highway, it kind of fits back with being right or wrong. Right?
00:36:11.020 --> 00:36:15.074 Kim Case: Their perspective is the only way to justice or their
00:36:15.510 --> 00:36:29.260 Kim Case: not suggested, but demanded path that the next steps, like, maybe an organization takes, or that kind of thing. It's the only way. Then that's a sign and I would say, also control can happen via gas lighting and sort of rewriting facts.
00:36:29.590 --> 00:36:39.379 Kim Case: So if you start to see those kinds of things, the last little piece, categorically would be if they're avoiding complexity. I know you're going to love this one, Mira. So oversimplification.
00:36:40.145 --> 00:36:44.169 Kim Case: Lacking nuance or recognition of human complexity
00:36:44.300 --> 00:37:02.330 Kim Case: at lacking knowledge that, like there are social forces at work and systems at work, and that they're leaning into fundamental attribution, error, and unable to hear feedback that it's not maybe just the individual and also within avoiding complexity. It would be like dichotomous framing, or all or nothing language. So
00:37:02.350 --> 00:37:07.409 Kim Case: those are kind of some things to look for, and I'll give some resources later. So people don't have to take all these notes.
00:37:08.538 --> 00:37:10.850 Mira Brancu: Yeah, those are fantastic.
00:37:11.269 --> 00:37:23.489 Mira Brancu: Yeah. And and I think with that list, a lot of what we talked about fits under there like the quick to judge and blame or need to prove yourself as right. The writing reflex.
00:37:23.913 --> 00:37:27.099 Mira Brancu: We. What do you think about the cancel culture.
00:37:27.100 --> 00:37:35.289 Kim Case: Well, I was just earlier talking about all these pieces of our current moment that maybe exacerbate this, too. Not that this is a new phenomenon. I don't think it is. I think it's been going on
00:37:35.310 --> 00:37:39.352 Kim Case: way before, you know. Women's white women's right to vote.
00:37:40.180 --> 00:37:42.789 Kim Case: And and on through all the different movements. But
00:37:43.620 --> 00:37:45.067 Kim Case: you know the
00:37:45.630 --> 00:37:48.609 Kim Case: court culture, I think cancel culture is.
00:37:48.790 --> 00:37:56.449 Kim Case: It's had a big, huge rise. I don't know if it's moments past, but I think it has rewritten a little bit about our assumptions, about how we.
00:37:57.320 --> 00:38:02.499 Kim Case: how we engage with people who maybe did do something that needs to be
00:38:02.520 --> 00:38:04.911 Kim Case: thought through and improved upon.
00:38:05.390 --> 00:38:06.330 Mira Brancu: And I really.
00:38:06.330 --> 00:38:07.590 Kim Case: You know, supportive way.
00:38:07.650 --> 00:38:10.010 Kim Case: and the reflex is
00:38:10.140 --> 00:38:11.689 Kim Case: burn their life down
00:38:11.984 --> 00:38:24.329 Kim Case: or burn down the reputation in their career or and there's different gradients of what I'm talking about here. Obviously, I mean, if you're a sexual predator at your job, I'm gonna put that in a different category. But cancel culture based on like.
00:38:24.890 --> 00:38:30.879 Kim Case: maybe you just have a different view of how to proceed. Or you know, you have a different opinion about something, so
00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:35.709 Kim Case: that, I think, gives people more permission in their brain to
00:38:35.790 --> 00:38:39.939 Kim Case: focus on attack of the individual as well. But again, I don't think this is a new thing.
00:38:41.080 --> 00:38:41.710 Kim Case: so it's not.
00:38:41.710 --> 00:38:42.120 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:38:42.120 --> 00:38:43.300 Kim Case: Cancel, culture.
00:38:43.520 --> 00:38:46.586 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I, what comes up for me is
00:38:49.510 --> 00:38:50.450 Mira Brancu: Then
00:38:50.810 --> 00:38:52.400 Mira Brancu: how do
00:38:52.540 --> 00:38:53.870 Mira Brancu: communities
00:38:54.530 --> 00:38:56.919 Mira Brancu: of social justice just
00:38:56.960 --> 00:39:01.409 Mira Brancu: social justice advocates who have different perspectives
00:39:01.600 --> 00:39:04.770 Mira Brancu: on how to proceed with a challenging
00:39:06.110 --> 00:39:08.639 Mira Brancu: social justice issue that they're passionate about
00:39:09.540 --> 00:39:11.150 Mira Brancu: if they disagree
00:39:11.720 --> 00:39:15.119 Mira Brancu: right? About the how.
00:39:15.700 --> 00:39:19.060 Mira Brancu: or even the language that they place on it.
00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:22.610 Mira Brancu: Or the level of intensity they focus on whatever.
00:39:22.940 --> 00:39:25.450 Mira Brancu: How can they both
00:39:25.590 --> 00:39:28.010 Mira Brancu: have a productive, healthy
00:39:28.190 --> 00:39:31.470 Mira Brancu: conversation about it? Give each other feedback
00:39:31.780 --> 00:39:33.759 Mira Brancu: when when they're concerned.
00:39:34.260 --> 00:39:38.440 Mira Brancu: and stay aligned with the focus.
00:39:38.890 --> 00:39:40.030 Mira Brancu: Of their cause.
00:39:40.260 --> 00:39:42.520 Mira Brancu: At the same time, what are your thoughts on that.
00:39:42.520 --> 00:39:45.197 Kim Case: I would say Harry was a consultant.
00:39:45.580 --> 00:39:47.419 Mira Brancu: The answer. Kim.
00:39:47.420 --> 00:39:56.429 Kim Case: Is? The answer is, the answer is, hire mirror, Rocco to come work with your team been there, and it was right. It was great. Well, I mean, I feel like
00:39:56.600 --> 00:40:03.080 Kim Case: I feel like, so some of the things I talk about in the chapter are really individual, based like, what if you're someone who wants to give someone feedback.
00:40:03.310 --> 00:40:10.510 Kim Case: And how do you then plan that? In a way, the word plans important here? Because again, a lot of this stuff is knee jerk.
00:40:10.530 --> 00:40:16.693 Kim Case: Yeah, and I have been very guilty of like responding too quickly in the past, which I also write about in the chapter.
00:40:17.990 --> 00:40:31.510 Kim Case: but I think this individual level advice is true. At the team level, the group level, the collective that's working on getting more people to out to vote level, whatever it might be. And it's to think through
00:40:32.570 --> 00:40:37.290 Kim Case: how you're going to do something in a supportive and compassionate
00:40:37.330 --> 00:40:47.920 Kim Case: way, and and sort of continually question your own assumptions and like judgmental things that are starting to creep up. You know you could even have moments where you sit down and say, Okay.
00:40:48.470 --> 00:40:50.150 Kim Case: how are you approaching this?
00:40:50.210 --> 00:40:58.919 Kim Case: Are we using a fundamental attribution? Error? Are we? Have we gotten everybody's ideas out? Do people feel safe to even share their ideas.
00:40:58.950 --> 00:41:01.580 Kim Case: you know. Is there a way that you can look at that?
00:41:02.600 --> 00:41:08.964 Kim Case: are, you know, how do we? How do we prioritize? Actually, let's start with this. Or do we all even have the same goal
00:41:10.070 --> 00:41:13.510 Kim Case: a lot of times? That's the 1st assumption is that everybody in the room has the same goal.
00:41:13.510 --> 00:41:13.880 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:18.669 Kim Case: And they maybe came in there with 4 different kinds of goals among the 7 people that showed up.
00:41:18.990 --> 00:41:22.790 Kim Case: But there's an assumption everyone is, has the same goal, that whatever the leader in the room is
00:41:23.210 --> 00:41:26.170 Kim Case: so starting with that, and then
00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:32.459 Kim Case: constantly, very, very intentionally, and
00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:36.200 Kim Case: I would say almost tan, like tangibly coming back
00:41:36.340 --> 00:41:41.989 Kim Case: to what the agreed upon goal is, if the agreed upon goal is, Get rise for people to go vote.
00:41:43.010 --> 00:41:48.079 Kim Case: That's it. Then every single thing we discuss should be like, how does it fit with that?
00:41:48.420 --> 00:41:50.050 Kim Case: Are we prioritizing that?
00:41:50.630 --> 00:41:54.769 Kim Case: How does it fit with that? And it should also be that everyone's asking themselves
00:41:55.790 --> 00:42:04.070 Kim Case: when I make a suggestion, is it? Is it because I'm trying to put me forward, or I'm trying to put that goal forward, you know. Is it? Is it my ego trying to talk?
00:42:04.130 --> 00:42:08.624 Kim Case: Sometimes we don't know, cause we're not asking ourselves those questions in advance.
00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:12.069 Kim Case: I can pause to see if you have anything you're thinking about.
00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:15.282 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Well, a billion questions.
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:20.409 Mira Brancu: the 1st thing that comes to mind is.
00:42:22.690 --> 00:42:27.740 Mira Brancu: you know, let let me place it in the context of myself. Right? I started out by saying.
00:42:28.640 --> 00:42:31.110 Mira Brancu: because of my bad experiences.
00:42:31.380 --> 00:42:33.460 Mira Brancu: With this I fear.
00:42:34.578 --> 00:42:43.089 Mira Brancu: Creating a community where the same thing happens again, even despite my best efforts. Right? Right? And so.
00:42:44.420 --> 00:42:48.400 Mira Brancu: yes, I've put in a lot of mechanisms to avoid this.
00:42:48.450 --> 00:42:51.280 Mira Brancu: But the big, the big question is.
00:42:51.630 --> 00:42:58.380 Mira Brancu: how would I know like it? The the answers to your questions, right are a lot of introspection.
00:42:58.380 --> 00:42:59.120 Kim Case: Yes.
00:42:59.490 --> 00:43:01.310 Mira Brancu: Is my ego involved here?
00:43:03.130 --> 00:43:06.139 Mira Brancu: Is this about me trying to prove myself?
00:43:06.370 --> 00:43:09.899 Mira Brancu: Is this about me trying to gain some power in this situation.
00:43:10.060 --> 00:43:12.829 Mira Brancu: The power question especially intrigues me.
00:43:13.160 --> 00:43:15.850 Mira Brancu: How might I
00:43:15.870 --> 00:43:17.630 Mira Brancu: be able to assess
00:43:17.660 --> 00:43:18.850 Mira Brancu: whether I'm
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:22.160 Mira Brancu: saying I'm aligned with a shared goal.
00:43:22.160 --> 00:43:22.690 Kim Case: Yeah.
00:43:22.690 --> 00:43:26.350 Mira Brancu: But, in fact, there's some additional
00:43:26.370 --> 00:43:28.050 Mira Brancu: ulterior personal
00:43:28.450 --> 00:43:29.210 Mira Brancu: motive.
00:43:29.210 --> 00:43:31.000 Kim Case: Well, and there may be, and it may be fine.
00:43:31.310 --> 00:43:33.130 Kim Case: Actually, if
00:43:33.310 --> 00:43:35.390 Kim Case: it's not like, it's bad, if
00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:47.309 Kim Case: you know you're like, okay. My suggestion is, we go to these neighborhoods that we know historically in elections. I'm still the same example didn't have as much of a turnout.
00:43:47.710 --> 00:43:59.220 Kim Case: I think that would be a great idea, because maybe those people need rides. Or maybe we can find out there's another reason. Or you know, maybe we find another reason. It's not our goal. But we know the organization working on that goal that they maybe would meet those people's needs.
00:43:59.380 --> 00:44:04.877 Kim Case: and it advances. Maybe your interest in being a person who gets known for
00:44:05.410 --> 00:44:08.619 Kim Case: election turnouts. I don't know. Maybe you're gonna have a podcast on that
00:44:08.700 --> 00:44:10.999 Kim Case: that's not that's not a problem to me.
00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:13.882 Kim Case: Actually, I think that's great alignment.
00:44:14.720 --> 00:44:17.000 Kim Case: but if you're suggesting
00:44:17.500 --> 00:44:19.630 Kim Case: well, I think what we should do
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:21.819 Kim Case: is do a fundraiser
00:44:21.890 --> 00:44:23.390 Kim Case: and donate
00:44:24.315 --> 00:44:25.890 Kim Case: our fundraising money
00:44:25.990 --> 00:44:27.559 Kim Case: to a
00:44:27.740 --> 00:44:30.140 Kim Case: organization that looks at voter fraud.
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:34.599 Kim Case: because maybe that's what you want to get known for. I don't know.
00:44:34.920 --> 00:44:40.069 Kim Case: Like, well, that's not what we're actually. But that's not what we're actually, that's not the goal that we're actually trying to do.
00:44:40.330 --> 00:44:57.650 Kim Case: And then you just try to bully them into doing it right that align with the goal that you have about yourself. But it's not what the stated upon collective goal is. Right. So right. Can everyone do this? Well, not necessarily. I think it's it's I think groups can put into place, though. Sort of practices.
00:44:57.660 --> 00:45:04.109 Kim Case: for how will you call someone in? I know we don't say, call out anymore, which I'm fine with, call out, but
00:45:04.560 --> 00:45:07.910 Kim Case: how do we do that in a constructive, supportive.
00:45:09.200 --> 00:45:11.150 Kim Case: compassionate, even
00:45:11.220 --> 00:45:19.050 Kim Case: compassionate? Can we do that? Can we have some grace for people? I'm not even a person that uses the word grace. But can we have some grace for people and for ourselves, like
00:45:19.450 --> 00:45:22.150 Kim Case: everybody's really just doing the best they can to be honest.
00:45:22.310 --> 00:45:27.899 Kim Case: And even people who we experience is really toxic. They're also doing the best that they can. Can you believe that.
00:45:28.690 --> 00:45:30.489 Kim Case: They could do better, they would, I think.
00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:35.329 Kim Case: and I often don't have a lot of compassion for people who act like that. But
00:45:35.610 --> 00:45:37.760 Kim Case: I can't say that they know better.
00:45:38.010 --> 00:45:40.040 Kim Case: because they're still doing it.
00:45:40.040 --> 00:45:40.840 Mira Brancu: Right, right.
00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:41.320 Kim Case: Phones.
00:45:41.320 --> 00:45:52.830 Mira Brancu: So let's hold on to that. I would love to explore in this next final segment practices for calling people in in a compassionate, supportive, empowered way.
00:45:53.250 --> 00:46:01.489 Mira Brancu: So you are listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mirabranku and our guest today, Dr. Kim case and we will be right back in just a moment.
00:48:04.420 --> 00:48:10.950 Mira Brancu: Welcome back to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Bronku and our guest today, Dr. Kim Case.
00:48:11.430 --> 00:48:21.829 Mira Brancu: Kim, I was starting to think about practices of calling people in in a compassionate, supportive, and empowered way. And I want to hold off on that question for just a moment.
00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:24.210 Mira Brancu: because I want to 1st
00:48:24.430 --> 00:48:25.980 Mira Brancu: go to.
00:48:26.260 --> 00:48:27.230 Mira Brancu: What
00:48:27.570 --> 00:48:30.220 Mira Brancu: if if I'm in that situation
00:48:30.600 --> 00:48:33.120 Mira Brancu: right? And I've been the target
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:34.490 Mira Brancu: of
00:48:35.145 --> 00:48:36.450 Mira Brancu: this sort of
00:48:36.570 --> 00:48:37.640 Mira Brancu: toxic
00:48:38.360 --> 00:48:41.449 Mira Brancu: so cannibalism that you have described
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:52.199 Mira Brancu: or maybe I'm a witness, and I'm watching it, and it's terrifying. And I'm like, frozen right? How would would we respond in an ideal situation?
00:48:52.200 --> 00:48:54.119 Kim Case: Yeah, I think this is where people get
00:48:54.150 --> 00:48:54.940 Kim Case: stuck.
00:48:55.840 --> 00:49:02.799 Kim Case: yeah, because there is often a free, a freezing of the person that's experiencing anybody else who may be witnessing. It may also be having in private, but
00:49:03.050 --> 00:49:08.339 Kim Case: I think I have made some mistakes in this realm in the past, of
00:49:08.820 --> 00:49:11.789 Kim Case: responding too quickly.
00:49:11.790 --> 00:49:12.440 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:49:12.440 --> 00:49:15.100 Kim Case: And I just want to point out to people that
00:49:15.170 --> 00:49:21.699 Kim Case: taking the time you need would probably be the 1st thing if it's in person or on zoom. I think separation is the 1st thing.
00:49:22.060 --> 00:49:22.660 Mira Brancu: Yes.
00:49:22.660 --> 00:49:30.599 Kim Case: And not responding. Now there may be people who quit on their feet and have it all lined up that it's not me and it's not most people I don't think so.
00:49:30.600 --> 00:49:34.240 Mira Brancu: Although I will say that I'm quick on my feet, and
00:49:34.290 --> 00:49:35.400 Mira Brancu: I
00:49:35.580 --> 00:49:44.039 Mira Brancu: 2 have responded too quickly, and I have often wished, despite the fact. Yeah, that I can respond. I still should wait.
00:49:44.740 --> 00:49:46.190 Kim Case: Yeah, I feel like
00:49:46.860 --> 00:49:52.109 Kim Case: I don't necessarily there are some I regret. The ones I regret are people who I don't think deserved a response at all.
00:49:52.110 --> 00:49:52.910 Mira Brancu: Hmm.
00:49:52.910 --> 00:50:14.572 Kim Case: And I gave them my energy and life force, and worried and precipitated and figured out the email to send back, and why this is like a stranger attacking me for no reason. So, taking the time you need gives you time to think about like, what am I actually doing? What are my motivations. So I have some advice which is so. And, by the way, working class background wise taking a beat, not my strength, but
00:50:15.020 --> 00:50:37.500 Kim Case: working on it. So if basically, we need to get back control from the amygdala. Okay, so fierce. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom! Fear that you're going to be like, you know, not considered a real scholar, not considered a legitimate Dei person, not considered a legitimate human resources worker, whatever it is, or you know, a community activist. So we gotta get we gotta get ourselves away from fight or flight.
00:50:37.560 --> 00:50:41.619 Kim Case: Everything in your body is firing. That is not about your cognition being clear.
00:50:41.790 --> 00:50:56.764 Kim Case: Yeah. So we need the cognitive frontal lobe situation to be the driver. That is not what's happening in that moment. So if I just open an email. And it's slamming me for not doing enough for students with disabilities. Which is not. This is a fake example.
00:50:57.210 --> 00:50:59.300 Kim Case: that's not the moment. So
00:50:59.340 --> 00:51:01.430 Kim Case: I need to be able to.
00:51:01.690 --> 00:51:05.140 Kim Case: you know, evaluate, and I can't evaluate with that. So the next thing is.
00:51:05.360 --> 00:51:09.118 Kim Case: I would say, write down what you wanted to send. But don't put it in electronic form.
00:51:10.070 --> 00:51:19.040 Kim Case: Accidentally something. Write it down, you know people have pins, and there's paper you could use. So write that out, I would say, wait 24 h.
00:51:19.160 --> 00:51:22.330 Kim Case: because you need the your system to calm down and need to sleep.
00:51:22.580 --> 00:51:28.159 Kim Case: and then reread it, but with a lens of critical questions, which is, what emotions am I seeing
00:51:28.190 --> 00:51:30.460 Kim Case: in this writing? You know
00:51:30.540 --> 00:51:40.156 Kim Case: what? What fear? Do I see coming through? Are those legitimate fears like? Does this person even need a response. Who is this person to me?
00:51:40.540 --> 00:51:58.142 Kim Case: you know. Am I giving this person too much of my life, force and time and energy, even if I ever talked to them, as I mean, I'm giving them my time by even thinking about any of this. Right? Yeah, is this someone I know. Is this a stranger? Is it someone who? We had a relationship, and maybe that there could be a conversation? Or is it more?
00:51:58.570 --> 00:52:04.406 Kim Case: you know someone I know to do these kinds of things in a pattern across humans. And maybe that's not something I want to pursue.
00:52:05.230 --> 00:52:12.020 Kim Case: you know. Are you in your? If you reread what you wrote down? Do you have apologizing in there? Are you going to apologize to an abuser? You need to think about that.
00:52:12.200 --> 00:52:13.950 Kim Case: Are you thanking them
00:52:14.300 --> 00:52:15.410 Kim Case: for
00:52:15.780 --> 00:52:17.182 Kim Case: doing something toxic.
00:52:17.650 --> 00:52:18.360 Mira Brancu: I mean.
00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:19.896 Kim Case: Times we do that
00:52:20.290 --> 00:52:28.747 Kim Case: And and do you really want to do that? And if it if it's something you are okay with doing that's different. But in a calm, cognitive function at its highest.
00:52:29.020 --> 00:52:29.470 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:52:29.470 --> 00:52:40.857 Kim Case: That decision is is okay. But just think about what that means, are you? And are you putting your power in the hands of someone who isn't being compassionate and isn't being supportive. It isn't about your growth necessarily.
00:52:41.580 --> 00:52:46.050 Kim Case: is it, that you want people to like you? And so you're trying to figure out a way to manage
00:52:46.180 --> 00:52:50.132 Kim Case: well, surely I can convince them that I'm good. I'm a good, I'm a good one. I'm a good.
00:52:51.700 --> 00:53:17.729 Kim Case: so is it that? And is that really something you want to, you know. Be worrying about? And you know, are you going to validate and empower bullying behavior. However, you respond, if you do. And again, you're not obligated to respond. There's no one is requiring, unless this is like a superior that says you have to reply to me in a in an economic context. You really don't have to do that. So think about that. And then the last thing I'll say is
00:53:18.180 --> 00:53:27.709 Kim Case: connect back to your basics. So if you're the kind of person that writes out a vision board or literally types out your goal or has a poster of that, or just has it in a Google Doc somewhere.
00:53:27.970 --> 00:53:31.339 Kim Case: Go back to it. What are your values?
00:53:31.840 --> 00:53:40.479 Kim Case: Know who you are and be able to stand in that, because there will be times. You need to go back to that, because other people maybe are kind of trying to knock you off balance.
00:53:41.306 --> 00:53:42.639 Kim Case: Okay, yeah.
00:53:42.640 --> 00:54:03.480 Mira Brancu: Those are phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal. You know, and and I would sort of pull out of there. Know your trigger buttons if you are, are so tied to a certain identity like your reputation. And someone questions that very identity and reputation that is going to be your trigger button. So you better be
00:54:03.540 --> 00:54:10.219 Mira Brancu: slowing down enough to really think about that to know. And then the other that I'm pulling out is
00:54:12.200 --> 00:54:14.070 Mira Brancu: I often think to myself.
00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:17.579 Mira Brancu: what would I want in a leader.
00:54:18.150 --> 00:54:28.179 Mira Brancu: And how do I show up in that way like pull the thing out of me that I want to be seeing and that I want to be giving out
00:54:28.270 --> 00:54:36.770 Mira Brancu: instead of like my worst. You know pieces of me, and if if I can't offer that, I've got to take a break until I can say.
00:54:36.820 --> 00:54:37.886 Mira Brancu: you know,
00:54:38.710 --> 00:54:42.970 Mira Brancu: something that is more role modely. What I really want to start.
00:54:42.970 --> 00:54:45.610 Kim Case: Even if it has to be aspirational. It's okay.
00:54:45.610 --> 00:54:48.290 Mira Brancu: Right right now. Kim
00:54:48.673 --> 00:55:02.850 Mira Brancu: we only have a few minutes left in 1 min. What might be just a couple of things to think about, practices to put in place for a calling in in a compassionate, supportive, empowered way.
00:55:03.820 --> 00:55:07.627 Kim Case: Yes. Okay, well, we kind of discussed this earlier. And it would be
00:55:08.630 --> 00:55:15.350 Kim Case: really thinking about the relationship, I would say, that's first.st Is this person who? Why should this person listen to you?
00:55:15.700 --> 00:55:18.859 Kim Case: Because it really you are asking for behavior change.
00:55:18.980 --> 00:55:20.040 Kim Case: or
00:55:20.160 --> 00:55:46.844 Kim Case: you're not actually doing it for the right reasons. So if you want behavior change, or you want someone to think about their behavior and maybe consider another perspective, what's the relationship you have with them. Why should they listen to you? And how are you going to approach that person with the curious, not judgmental, so that the effectiveness piece can be at the top, and not your ego that has to say like, I know better than other people,
00:55:47.730 --> 00:55:59.330 Kim Case: And then will you make sure you're framing that where it's not shaming someone patronizing someone or condescending to someone. And and do you need to do that in front of other people? Are you potentially humiliating someone.
00:56:00.080 --> 00:56:01.750 Kim Case: Then you need to find another way.
00:56:02.070 --> 00:56:03.819 Kim Case: Is it always your place
00:56:03.850 --> 00:56:05.650 Kim Case: to correct every single person.
00:56:07.270 --> 00:56:07.600 Mira Brancu: Yeah.
00:56:07.600 --> 00:56:08.270 Kim Case: Maybe not.
00:56:08.270 --> 00:56:21.307 Mira Brancu: Excellent, excellent. Okay, if you want to find out more, because Kim has, like curriculum on this, she has got a group on this. She does this all the time, and excellent at it. So
00:56:21.950 --> 00:56:31.400 Mira Brancu: You can find her, and I'm showing this for those of you who are watching dr. Kim case, KCAS. e.com.
00:56:31.460 --> 00:56:39.110 Mira Brancu: and you can see lots of offers that she has courses and essays and and all kinds of things. So.
00:56:39.110 --> 00:56:49.889 Kim Case: I will say, if people want to look at, there's some essays on there on this topic, since the chapter in the book aren't out yet. So if they go to the essays page, they can look at A few essays on this exact topic.
00:56:49.890 --> 00:57:03.069 Mira Brancu: Wow, look at all of these. That's awesome. That's really amazing. What you're contributing to to this work. So for audience, what did you take away? And more importantly, what is one small change
00:57:03.080 --> 00:57:14.180 Mira Brancu: that you can implement this week, based on what you learn from Kim? Share it with us on Linkedin, and we can cheer you on. We can support you. We can offer additional tips and thoughts.
00:57:14.710 --> 00:57:24.899 Mira Brancu: Talk radio. Dot. Nyc is also on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter twitch. And then, when it is translated into podcasts, we're on apple spotify Amazon podcasts all over the place.
00:57:24.910 --> 00:57:29.800 Mira Brancu: Please help us increase our visibility, reach and impact by leaving a review.
00:57:30.470 --> 00:57:41.249 Mira Brancu: Thank you to talk radio Nyc for hosting. I'm Dr. Mira Branco, the host of the Hard Skills show. Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Kim Case. It was lovely to have you.
00:57:41.250 --> 00:57:41.760 Kim Case: I appreciate it.
00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:46.350 Mira Brancu: Absolutely have a great rest of your day wherever you're tuning in from everybody. Bye.
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