The Hard Skills

Friday, September 15, 2023
Facebook Live Video from 2023/09/15 - Unlocking Leadership Amidst Uncertainty: When Your Gut is Compromised, with Dr. Vanessa Roddenberry

Facebook Live Video from 2023/09/15 - Unlocking Leadership Amidst Uncertainty: When Your Gut is Compromised, with Dr. Vanessa Roddenberry


2023/09/15 - Unlocking Leadership Amidst Uncertainty: When Your Gut is Compromised, with Dr. Vanessa Roddenberry

[NEW EPISODE] Unlocking Leadership Amidst Uncertainty: When Your Gut is Compromised, with Dr. Vanessa Roddenberry

Fridays 1:00pm - 2:00pm (EDT)                              


Discover how heightened stress response and cognitive biases can impact decision-making and team dynamics for leaders. But fear not! This episode equips you with evidence-based strategies to overcome these challenges, learn to differentiate between a stress reaction and intuition, empowering you to make informed decisions and build trust within your team. Perfect for mental health-savvy professionals, innovative leaders, and anyone seeking to master the art of trauma-informed leadership in today's dynamic world.

Join a trauma expert who helps us delve into the fascinating world of managing uncertainty when your gut is compromised by PTSD or anxiety. Discover how heightened stress response and cognitive biases can impact decision-making and team dynamics for leaders. But fear not! This episode equips you with evidence-based strategies to overcome these challenges, learn to differentiate between a stress reaction and intuition, empowering you to make informed decisions and build trust within your team. Perfect for mental health-savvy professionals, innovative leaders, and anyone seeking to master the art of trauma-informed leadership in today's dynamic world. Tune in and unleash your full leadership potential!

Dr. Vanessa Roddenberry is a clinical psychologist and founder of Breyta Psychological Services, a group practice specializing in the provision of trauma-informed evidence-based care. She is an expert in the treatment of PTSD and trauma-related disorders. Vanessa is passionate about promoting organizational and community awareness of trauma-informed principles in business and healthcare, as well as burnout prevention in professionals.;; ;

#thrivingthroughuncertainty, #leadingwithuncertainty, #gutcheck, #mentalhealth, #wisemind, #traumainformedleadership, #mindfulleadership #breytapsych #leadershipdevelopment #TheHardSkills

Tune in for this empowering conversation at

Show Notes

Segment  1

On this episode of The Hard Skills, Dr, Mira Brancu is joined by Dr. Vanessa Roddenberry, a clinical psychologist and founder of Breyta Psychological Services. They will be discussing how to manage uncertainty when anxiety and other disorders can get in the way of reaching our fullest potential. To start the conversation, Dr. Roddenberry shares how she got into her field and how she named her practice, Breyta. After she shares her story, they move on to the main topic, which is trusting ourselves. When it comes to decision-making in times of uncertainty, it has always been uncomfortable for most humans. We have biases we are immediately drawn to when we are looking for something to fall into place, something that is certain. However, this can cause problems with negative consequences. Trusting your gut is something that is not taken lightly, it is even more difficult for those who may have a mental health disorder like anxiety or PTSD because it will affect the way a person processes information.

Segment 2

Before returning to the topic at hand, Dr. Brancu shares Dr. Roddenberry’s website where people can find more information about her and her practice. Afterward, they proceed to discuss data, particularly little data, which is our gut feeling in times of decision-making, and cherry-picking data, which are little bits of information to confirm certain biases. Though useful, it can create different challenges later on, especially for those who may have mental health issues. One of the challenges that are arising with recent events, like the war in Ukraine, is a lot of people are sharing collective trauma, and there is a rise of leaders with trauma. This can cause a tear between different thoughts and feelings, debating about how someone wants to proceed to be a leader. Dr. Brancu asks Dr. Roddenberry what signs people can look for if their intuition is off and her answers include exhaustion while decision-making, avoidance, checking your stress level, and paying attention to team dynamics. Tips to help when noticing these signs are to always do an internal check and a group check.

Segment 3

After the break, they pick up where they left off and discuss the difference between a normal stress reaction and a trauma reaction. Trauma reactions can lead to tension and high emotions and can deter from making clear decisions while normal stress reaction is less tense and emotions aren’t as expressive or vulnerable, which isn’t as helpful either because Dr. Roddenberry believes that there needs to be a good combination between emotion and automaton reactions to be an effective leader. Mindfulness exercises can help us to be more aware of our emotions and help to achieve that good balance between emotion and professionalism while achieving an internal check all in the same practice. Afterward, Dr. Brancu asks a question that was given by a live viewer to answer, which is why we feel things that are tied to emotion in the first place; why our body feels things before our brain can sort something out.

Segment 4

As the episode ends, Dr. Brancu takes the time to ask a question that she did not get the chance to ask in a previous segment, which was where we receive the big data from and how it comes to the smaller data from the first segment. As the episode ends, Dr. Brancu shares some things to take away from this lesson and ties everything they have learned from this. Those things include self-awareness/reflection, asking for feedback, situational awareness, interpretation of emotions and when it is best to use them, and authentic leadership. Before the episode is finished, Dr. Brancu asks what Dr. Roddenberry what viewers can take away from this episode. Dr. Roddenberry’s answer is to understand that there is so much power in authenticity and acknowledge that self-care is important for leaders to do for themselves and for their teams, which is one of the most powerful things leaders can do for themselves. Also, remember that if you suspect that something is wrong with you and your mind, take the time for yourself because it will help you in the end.


00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:43.930 Mira Brancu: welcome welcome to the hard skills podcast and show with me. Dr. Mira Branku. I work with leaders in healthcare research stem and other technical fields, who recognize that developing yourself and your teams

00:00:44.910 --> 00:00:56.849 Mira Brancu: and creating healthy, inclusive workplace cultures and environments will help you retain the best people doing the highest level work, in other words, developing the hard skills needed to make a greater impact

00:00:57.150 --> 00:01:03.479 Mira Brancu: if you value evidence-based solutions and are committed to consistent practice. Then this is the podcast and show for you

00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:32.359 Mira Brancu: this season. We're exploring the first stage in my strategic leadership pathway model facing uncertainty. And today we're talking with Dr. Raymond Abdul Rahman about leading, with uncertainty in engaging in De Andi efforts and discussions which are definitely hard skills. According to some. Now I don't want you listening or watching with this passively. I want you to reflect

00:01:32.830 --> 00:01:45.359 Mira Brancu: deeply. Take notes. I take notes all the time and identify at least one small step to further develop your hard skills muscle. So let me introduce our guest today.

00:01:45.380 --> 00:01:56.399 Mira Brancu: Dr. Raymond Abdul Rahman is a Ca, clinical and consulting psychologist who applies his skills of creating sustainable change to leadership and diversity, equity and inclusion.

00:01:56.510 --> 00:02:06.150 Mira Brancu: He has a broad and international portfolio of clients, including Google and Youtube Mastercard Foundation and Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Among others.

00:02:06.200 --> 00:02:27.500 Mira Brancu: he's a true thought leader in this field, and that includes international teaching. He's an assistant Professor with the Department of Clinical Health Psychology at the University of Manitoba. Nest held 3 visiting professor positions at Zanzibar University, the State University of Zanzibar, and Muhim Billy University of Health and Allied Sciences.

00:02:27.760 --> 00:02:31.219 Mira Brancu: His thought leadership also includes writing.

00:02:31.270 --> 00:02:40.289 Mira Brancu: speaking, and innovating. He's the author of an upcoming book, developing anti-racist cultural competence due in early 2024.

00:02:40.480 --> 00:02:43.870 Mira Brancu: He's a Tedx speaker on resolving unconscious bias.

00:02:44.110 --> 00:02:49.220 Mira Brancu: and he's the founder of test and living with racismcom.

00:02:49.540 --> 00:02:57.559 Mira Brancu: I took the assessment, and I checked out the sites, both worth your time. If you want to increase your understanding and awareness of racism and bias.

00:02:58.290 --> 00:03:12.659 Mira Brancu: he was also awarded the excellence in diversity and inclusion. Consulting award by the society of consulting psychology, and finally, he too, hosts a podcast on the difficult Conversations of racism called different people, which is

00:03:12.740 --> 00:03:14.909 Mira Brancu: absolutely fantastic.

00:03:15.350 --> 00:03:34.809 Mira Brancu: So Raymond and I also know each other through the society of consulting psychologists. I've had the opportunity to hear him speak on this topic numerous times, and the agility and clarity he offers in the space is really worth your time. So welcome, Raymond, I'm so glad to have you with us on the show.

00:03:37.590 --> 00:03:42.600 Mira Brancu: Oh, and you're on mute right now. So you're gonna need to unmute to share.

00:03:42.790 --> 00:03:51.919 Mira Brancu: There you go. I'm very honored to be a part of this. Podcast and thank you so much for having me absolutely okay. So

00:03:51.970 --> 00:03:57.350 Mira Brancu: I wanted to start by asking one thing, did I say your name right, or did I get it wrong?

00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:01.020 Rehman Abdulrehman: It was close. The last name is pronounced Abd Rahman

00:04:01.190 --> 00:04:02.400 Mira Brancu: of direct men.

00:04:02.440 --> 00:04:30.249 Mira Brancu: Okay, alright good. So this is one of the things I think about. Often when we sometimes like, get anxious about getting things right. And one of the first things is just like names, right? Like names are fairly simple. But they're really important to people. And when you start having discussions about diversity, we worry about seeing the wrong things are offending people and doing it wrong, right, and even like with names. Why is that?

00:04:30.810 --> 00:04:42.550 Rehman Abdulrehman: Well, I mean, I think this is a hard skill, and it has a lot of challenges with it for for a couple of reasons, and I think certainly there's a great deal of anxiety, and I think you know

00:04:42.740 --> 00:05:04.719 Rehman Abdulrehman: we live in a culture. Well, the history of racism and the experience of racism is certainly a deeply invasive and pervasively problematic one. So obviously, it's going to create a natural anxiety. But the fear of being called out as somebody who has racist tendencies or somebody who has bias certainly can create a lot of fear on the flip side of that.

00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:21.620 Rehman Abdulrehman: It's also important to recognize that many people of color or people from marginalized communities also have a great sense of fear, because when they've expressed those challenges with racism or discrimination, they're often minimized and dismissed. And people tend to see them as fanatical.

00:05:22.170 --> 00:05:27.549 Rehman Abdulrehman: But it's also it's also a hard thing, because people don't know what they're talking about. And so.

00:05:27.770 --> 00:05:36.359 Rehman Abdulrehman: you know, talking about issues of racism can be very elusive, and I and I think about. And one of my favorite books was interview with a vampire.

00:05:36.770 --> 00:05:42.879 Rehman Abdulrehman: and I think of a scene right at the beginning, where the vampire Louis,

00:05:42.900 --> 00:05:48.460 Rehman Abdulrehman: you know, takes up the interviewer to this department to offer him this interview and

00:05:48.670 --> 00:05:54.940 Rehman Abdulrehman: and then he turns on the light and then boom! He's right next to the interviewer, and he startles the interviewer and the interviewer says.

00:05:55.060 --> 00:06:00.699 Rehman Abdulrehman: How did you do that, and the response from the vampire is the same as you.

00:06:00.710 --> 00:06:12.700 Rehman Abdulrehman: A series of steps, one subsequent to the other just faster than you could notice. And the thing about racism that I tend to say is that it's generally North America's best kept secret.

00:06:13.460 --> 00:06:23.199 Rehman Abdulrehman: and that's a hard thing to believe. Given that our news is filled with really tragic incidences. But what we see there is really the tip of the iceberg. And there's this lack of knowledge

00:06:23.490 --> 00:06:38.140 Rehman Abdulrehman: that could be otherwise quite simple. you know one series of steps, one following the other, just like the vampire, Louise said. it could be quite simple, but because of that lack of knowledge. It's not just fear, it's not just anxiety.

00:06:38.270 --> 00:06:44.439 Rehman Abdulrehman: It's a lack of understanding. And that's why I do. What I do is to increase that understanding.

00:06:44.840 --> 00:06:52.480 Mira Brancu: So are you saying that maybe sometimes our fear starts with just a lack of understanding. And if

00:06:52.560 --> 00:07:01.889 Mira Brancu: we sort of start engaging and increasing our awareness that maybe the fear could sort of eventually come along with with that.

00:07:02.320 --> 00:07:29.250 Rehman Abdulrehman: I'm not sure. I think, that they can be. They can be an overlap between those 2, but I'm not sure that they I think they're 2 mutually exclusive things that sometimes overlap. I think fear is certainly there because of the nature of the topic and a whole series of other issues that creates fear. I think the moment you feel like you're gonna be attacked, whether you admit to bias, or you are the victim of racism on a regular basis. That's gonna create fear.

00:07:29.420 --> 00:07:36.940 Rehman Abdulrehman:  But I think that if you have privilege and you're blind to it, and you don't have the experience of being marginalized.

00:07:36.970 --> 00:07:39.289 Rehman Abdulrehman: It really creates a lack of awareness.

00:07:39.390 --> 00:07:51.770 Rehman Abdulrehman: And and sometimes that blindness also applies to people of color. And I mean, the truth is that you know, if you live a life of being discriminated on a regular basis, you start to just see it as normal.

00:07:51.790 --> 00:08:04.959 Rehman Abdulrehman: and you tend not to pay attention to it. And it leads to a concept of ethnic and cultural identity development where we have to start to look at that aspect of who we are, whether whether whether we are leaders or not.

00:08:05.100 --> 00:08:19.649 Rehman Abdulrehman: particularly if we're leaders, you know, how does systemic racism and the prevalence of white supremacy really influence our own ethnic and cultural identity because that's an element of knowledge that we also need to get to as well.

00:08:19.750 --> 00:08:22.560 Mira Brancu: yeah, yeah.

00:08:23.030 --> 00:08:31.009 Mira Brancu: as I'm thinking about this and thinking about like, how do we get folks to feel more comfortable

00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:42.370 Mira Brancu: engaging in these conversations, and maybe you you can't get comfortable until you just started right? Okay. So so one of the one of the greatest feelings of uncertainty, though.

00:08:42.380 --> 00:08:47.349 Mira Brancu: that a lot of leaders personally experiences how to have these conversations

00:08:47.540 --> 00:08:57.289 Mira Brancu: and take critical actions, right related to diversity, equity, inclusion, access, justice, belong these these kind of things.

00:08:57.310 --> 00:08:59.920 Mira Brancu: but they're really hard skills

00:09:00.070 --> 00:09:07.219 Mira Brancu: for many, right? So why are they so difficult? What? What is sort of the

00:09:07.570 --> 00:09:10.310 Mira Brancu: the barrier there to overcome.

00:09:11.690 --> 00:09:23.569 Rehman Abdulrehman: Well, I mean, there's we talked about some of those barriers already, right? I mean, there is an unawareness of the issues. I don't think people really get it. I think there's the fear

00:09:25.090 --> 00:09:29.000 Rehman Abdulrehman: But but I also think that sometimes one has to really

00:09:29.080 --> 00:09:31.330 Rehman Abdulrehman: understand like motivation.

00:09:31.510 --> 00:09:35.210 Rehman Abdulrehman: you know, and the motivation of wanting to change.

00:09:35.370 --> 00:09:42.630 Rehman Abdulrehman: I think the dilemma here is that under the umbrella of awareness is a lot of people think that this really isn't as big of an issue as it actually is.

00:09:43.350 --> 00:09:59.720 Rehman Abdulrehman: You know, I think, that we don't see burning crosses in the middle of our offices. We don't have separate sections on buses, and you know we have a single water fountain and water cooler, where people gather to, you know, to connect, or something at at an office. And so we think that there's no barriers.

00:10:00.310 --> 00:10:08.609 Rehman Abdulrehman: But if you don't have that lived experience of what that barrier actually is, if we don't understand what modern-day racism actually is, how are we gonna work on it?

00:10:08.910 --> 00:10:33.729 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah. So I I'm I'm hearing 3 things. Num number one is lack of awareness. Number 2 is fear and number 3, which I find extremely intriguing. Is this motivation like, if I don't see the issue which is connected to lack of awareness, right? If I don't see the issue. If it doesn't have a direct impact on me or my family, or like anything around me.

00:10:33.930 --> 00:10:40.600 Mira Brancu: Where am I gonna gather that motivation to lean in and find like this is still important

00:10:41.030 --> 00:10:45.279 Mira Brancu: to do. This is still important for me and for others. Right?

00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:50.599 Rehman Abdulrehman: Yeah, absolutely. And and so that if we if we're blind to the problem

00:10:50.700 --> 00:10:57.649 Rehman Abdulrehman: and we and we don't have that sense of empathy, of how it impacts others, but also impacts us as a part of a larger community.

00:10:58.190 --> 00:10:59.750 Then why would we change

00:10:59.920 --> 00:11:02.769 Rehman Abdulrehman: so? What is the what is the need for that?

00:11:03.090 --> 00:11:13.360 Mira Brancu: Right. So how would we start to if if I'm a leader who

00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:20.619 Mira Brancu: it? It's not impacting me, I don't get it. I don't understand what the big deal is right. It's it's it

00:11:20.850 --> 00:11:31.119 Mira Brancu: everything seems fine to me. But why is everybody complaining about this? Right like, where do I even begin as a leader to start

00:11:31.670 --> 00:11:34.150 Mira Brancu: working through like

00:11:34.220 --> 00:11:42.690 Rehman Abdulrehman: just accessing the motivation. Right? Right? Yeah. So let's take it. Let's take a step back. Generally speaking, you know. And we talked about.

00:11:42.830 --> 00:12:07.469 Rehman Abdulrehman: You know, this concept of exposure. Psychologists were aware of this idea that the more we gradually face our fears, the more comfortable we get discussing or having those conversations. And I think addressing racism and systemic racism really is a public health issue. And if we think about other public health issues like, you know? You know, issues of, say, sex breast feeding, you know. Covid, all those issues were really difficult to have at the beginning.

00:12:07.560 --> 00:12:22.270 Rehman Abdulrehman: And now it's just, you know, because it's impacted so many people. We just kind of go along with it. And so motivation exists, not just because of a lack of awareness, but because it impacts people. And I'm gonna see something kind of controversial. But I think it's true.

00:12:22.830 --> 00:12:24.789 Rehman Abdulrehman: when white people are impacted.

00:12:25.100 --> 00:12:37.179 Rehman Abdulrehman: We move very, very fast to make changes. And so when we looked at when we look at marginalized groups that are impacted by discrimination, if white people are in those marginalized groups. We move fast.

00:12:37.850 --> 00:12:52.700 Rehman Abdulrehman: And it's not to say that we've achieved equity on issues of women's issues or the LGBT or the queer community. We have still a long ways to go, but because white people are included in those marginalized groups, the movement has come far faster.

00:12:52.740 --> 00:12:54.990 Rehman Abdulrehman: Then the issue's tied to people of color.

00:12:55.230 --> 00:12:56.070 Mira Brancu: Hmm.

00:12:56.280 --> 00:12:57.130 Rehman Abdulrehman: right?

00:12:57.570 --> 00:12:59.330 Rehman Abdulrehman: And so

00:12:59.400 --> 00:13:04.190 Rehman Abdulrehman: and so that's also an important thing to be considerate when we think about motivation

00:13:04.590 --> 00:13:08.859 Rehman Abdulrehman: and what that pulls for is the sense of empathy and relatability.

00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:17.619 Rehman Abdulrehman: And it points to what we're seeing now in some data that we're finding from. You know, our bias outside the box or tool

00:13:17.670 --> 00:13:23.210 Rehman Abdulrehman: is that we? When we have a sense of familiarity, or when we relate to people.

00:13:23.700 --> 00:13:31.240 Rehman Abdulrehman: we're less likely to see the bias. But the more we see them as outsiders. the more likely we are to have biases towards them.

00:13:31.920 --> 00:13:53.119 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah. Okay, we're getting into it. We're gonna dig in a little bit more. But we're gonna pause right now. We're nearing an outbreak. So you're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mirab Branku and our guest, Dr. Ramana, Bill Raman. The Hard Skills airs live with us on Friday, at one Pm. Eastern time. If you wanna join us.

00:13:53.120 --> 00:14:11.399 Mira Brancu: Raymond and I right now live and ask some questions you are welcome to. We're open to receiving questions and answering them in real time. You can find us on Linkedin right now, we're having a little bit of an issue with the Linkedin streaming. But you could also find us on, we'll be back with our guest in just a moment.

00:16:24.110 --> 00:16:41.949 Mira Brancu: welcome. Welcome back. We still have some trouble with streaming to like Linkedin. But I did post on Linkedin other places that you can find us. Youtube twitch twitter. You started Ramon talking about

00:16:41.950 --> 00:16:55.469 Mira Brancu: what you're learning from test I'm going to for those of you who are watching us live right now, I'm gonna share my screen for a second here so that I can show folks where to find it.

00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:59.450 Mira Brancu: This is his main page. Lead with

00:16:59.510 --> 00:17:03.070 Mira Brancu: and if you click on test bias from there

00:17:03.680 --> 00:17:29.120 Mira Brancu: you'll see more information about how to get to this bias outside the box. Would you like to share a little bit more about this and what you're learning from this. When you we started sort of talking about the public health issue we talked about like familiarity and empathy. What are you learning from from this data, from this information.

00:17:29.120 --> 00:17:38.850 Rehman Abdulrehman: who struggle with trying to meet some Dei goals. What they don't recognize is often people's individuals, individual biases impact public policy and organizational culture.

00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:54.369 Rehman Abdulrehman: and people are very threatened to have that conversation often in a group, and I wanted people to be able to have an individual personal journey and conversation with themselves. And so I created this tool. So people could have this private journey to be able to safely feel they could

00:17:54.460 --> 00:18:02.360 Rehman Abdulrehman: identify their biases and ask themselves questions about what lack of information they had or what false information they had.

00:18:02.430 --> 00:18:30.490 Rehman Abdulrehman: and we thought it'd be a good idea to start collecting data. And the data that we've got to date is like mind blowing what it's teaching us about. Bias has been so significant. Our sample size is massive. I think it must be close to 6,000 by now, you know, every day I'm getting notifications that people are filling this out numerous times in a day. So it's a bit of research nerds like dream, right? It's like all this data.

00:18:30.490 --> 00:18:39.359 Rehman Abdulrehman: I was trying to get a colleague, and they're like, stop dangling the shiny coin in front of my face. I don't need more work, but I want to.

00:18:39.620 --> 00:18:44.300 Rehman Abdulrehman: So what we're learning actually are some really very interesting things.

00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:55.840 Rehman Abdulrehman: Number one. That the biases that we carry as a North American society overall. And that's largely the population that has filled this measure out.

00:18:56.680 --> 00:19:10.409 Rehman Abdulrehman: we tend to have the same biases regardless of who we are, and that suggests that even people of color, even immigrants. Even people are left leaning or right, leaning politically, regardless of age or education.

00:19:10.570 --> 00:19:26.340 Rehman Abdulrehman: Our biases tend to follow the same trend, and that speaks to this concept of systemic racism, of how all of us have adopted these biases which are incorrect about people and and that perpetuate stereotypes.

00:19:26.430 --> 00:19:31.090 Rehman Abdulrehman: So that's very interesting that we're noticing. We're also noticing that

00:19:31.390 --> 00:19:35.610 Rehman Abdulrehman: when people have some relatability

00:19:35.930 --> 00:19:45.030 Rehman Abdulrehman: to the experience of marginalization, they are, although they will carry those biases. This, the presence of those biases is less

00:19:45.090 --> 00:19:47.530 Rehman Abdulrehman: present, like significantly less present.

00:19:47.840 --> 00:19:54.949 Rehman Abdulrehman: So, for example, we find individuals who identify as transgender.

00:19:54.960 --> 00:20:00.530 Rehman Abdulrehman: well, in some cases actually have less biases against marginalized people

00:20:01.080 --> 00:20:06.230 Rehman Abdulrehman: be them white or bipoc people.

00:20:06.280 --> 00:20:13.550 Rehman Abdulrehman: those transgender people who have that element of that experience of being marginalized against it creates empathy.

00:20:13.900 --> 00:20:20.080 Rehman Abdulrehman: We're also recognizing that some individuals, when they have greater

00:20:20.460 --> 00:20:35.949 Rehman Abdulrehman: the moment the moment people identify themselves as being marginalized and they become complicit. we notice that they can sometimes carry more bias. Can we slow down for a second? I know some people don't know what that means to become complicit.

00:20:36.080 --> 00:20:54.259 Rehman Abdulrehman: So complicit is where we just don't pay attention. You know we are. We are not paying attention to who we are, we just letting things go. We are, I think about. You know the spectrum of complicity where we just accept things as they are and carry on, including

00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:56.579 Rehman Abdulrehman: our own mind and our own thoughts.

00:20:57.520 --> 00:21:06.099 Rehman Abdulrehman: The other OP. Opposite end of the spectrum. Is this hyper vigilance, which I don't think is healthy, either, where we're always nervous about, you know. I think that's where we get this.

00:21:06.280 --> 00:21:18.349 Rehman Abdulrehman: You know, people are eager to cancel things right away. I do think some things need to be cancelled. But you know we go to that quick response on the right, on the far right. And then where I think, where we need to be is this sense of mindfulness

00:21:18.560 --> 00:21:33.969 Rehman Abdulrehman: where we are trying to pay attention to and be mindful to our thoughts, and so complicity complicities on one end, hypervigilance on the other, where we want to move people, and where this tool was meant to be developed was to create a sense of mindfulness about our own biases.

00:21:34.370 --> 00:21:40.740 Rehman Abdulrehman: So when people are complicit and ignoring their own thoughts and not recognizing they might carry bias

00:21:40.780 --> 00:21:46.329 Rehman Abdulrehman: when they automatically might assume that they are from a marginalized group. Therefore they don't carry bias.

00:21:46.570 --> 00:21:53.920 Rehman Abdulrehman: Actually they can be more likely to carry bias. And there were 2 particular groups where we noticed this. So, for example.

00:21:53.980 --> 00:21:56.230 Rehman Abdulrehman: in some cases

00:21:56.380 --> 00:21:59.649 Rehman Abdulrehman: immigrants were more likely to carry

00:21:59.840 --> 00:22:01.810 Rehman Abdulrehman: xenophobic views

00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.870 than people who are not immigrants.

00:22:05.110 --> 00:22:18.680 Rehman Abdulrehman: you know. And so we assume that you know we've been marginalized against that. And actually, that leads us to have more bias. But another very interesting thing is that you know, the one group of marginalized people that we've often identified as being

00:22:18.710 --> 00:22:22.359 Rehman Abdulrehman: the primary ally to people of color. And that's white women.

00:22:22.460 --> 00:22:28.069 Rehman Abdulrehman: because of their experience of sexism and marginalization due to gender.

00:22:28.310 --> 00:22:34.499 Rehman Abdulrehman: actually, in some cases carry the same amount, and in some cases more bias than white men.

00:22:35.260 --> 00:22:44.779 Rehman Abdulrehman: And to me, that's that's a very fascinating thing. And again, it speaks to that sense of complicity when we automatically assume that we don't have issues because we're a part of a marginalized group.

00:22:45.030 --> 00:22:49.059 Rehman Abdulrehman: When, in fact. we've got work to do ourselves.

00:22:49.070 --> 00:22:50.910 Mira Brancu: Yeah. Yeah. Oof.

00:22:51.060 --> 00:23:02.590 Mira Brancu: there's lots to unpack here. One of the things that I'm picking up on, and and let me know if if I got this right is when you're describing the 2 ends of the spectrum.

00:23:02.670 --> 00:23:07.250 Mira Brancu: Right? You're describing the sort of lack of awareness or ignoring

00:23:07.700 --> 00:23:11.450 Mira Brancu: versus the other end hyper vigilance.

00:23:11.510 --> 00:23:12.930 Rehman Abdulrehman: Yes.

00:23:13.420 --> 00:23:16.109 Mira Brancu: it sounds like under and overreacting.

00:23:16.170 --> 00:23:19.830 Mira Brancu: like you're either under reacting to what's there

00:23:19.990 --> 00:23:21.760 Mira Brancu: or overreacting.

00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:25.030 Mira Brancu: And either way, it doesn't help

00:23:25.380 --> 00:23:47.680 Mira Brancu: when we go to those extremes absolutely, but it but it also speaks to our sense of awareness about the problem right? How much we are like, I think complicity speaks to our understanding and awareness, not just our reaction to, but our own awareness ourselves and the world around us. Yeah, yeah. This. It it honestly reminds me of a really great

00:23:47.740 --> 00:23:51.220 Mira Brancu: class that I took in

00:23:51.500 --> 00:23:57.540 Mira Brancu: early 2 thousands I was. I was getting my masters in school counseling, and it was

00:23:58.170 --> 00:24:10.369 Mira Brancu: he was on diversity it was, you know. The the master's program was heavily emphasized multicultural counseling, which was kind of the the word back, then multi-cultural was the the word that we use back then for that

00:24:10.410 --> 00:24:14.579 Mira Brancu: and And I remember saying

00:24:15.220 --> 00:24:35.680 Mira Brancu: awkwardly, to to my dismay. Now, looking back, things like, well, I understand what it's like to be marginalized, and as an immigrant or as a woman. So I didn't actually say this out loud. This doesn't apply to me, but like I was pretty much acting like that right?

00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:46.590 Mira Brancu: which was a huge cognitive bias on my part right? And so the Professor had to like work me through. This assumption.

00:24:46.620 --> 00:24:50.839 Mira Brancu: right? And that was like 2025 years ago, whatever but

00:24:51.070 --> 00:25:20.649 Mira Brancu: I'm still on a journey of learning 2025 years later. And so this is not like a one and done. This is like a relearning, unlearning, relearning growth, understanding yourself, self awareness, kind of journey. And it's not like you don't make progress every single year, right? But it just gets easier. And you you get better. And then I feel like things have changed over time, too, right? Like

00:25:20.950 --> 00:25:29.720 Mira Brancu: the language, the way we think about it, the complexity, the nuance which in some ways. I wonder

00:25:31.010 --> 00:25:42.379 Mira Brancu: if that alone makes it hard to stay engaged like, is it? I started. II sometimes wonder like

00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:47.909 Mira Brancu: is the overwhelm of where to start also part of the problem?

00:25:48.010 --> 00:25:49.280 Rehman Abdulrehman: I don't think so.

00:25:49.300 --> 00:26:00.279 Rehman Abdulrehman: I like so first and foremost, thank you for the honesty and for sharing that, I think that's a that's a that. I think you're good role model in demonstrating how to identify. You know, the biases that we hold

00:26:00.760 --> 00:26:08.400 Rehman Abdulrehman: doesn't always necessarily make us bad people. It makes us uninformed, and there's nothing wrong with being uninformed and moving towards becoming more informed.

00:26:08.540 --> 00:26:31.920 Rehman Abdulrehman: But I don't think there's this concept of being overwhelmed. I mean, people live with information like that all the time. People of color are overwhelmed with racism on a regular basis, and we survive. We thrive. We live our lives, you know, and with with due respect I mean that sense of overwhelmingness often speaks to the fragility that many people of color will say. You know.

00:26:31.950 --> 00:26:44.379 Rehman Abdulrehman: if you've not lived this life and you hear about it, it's feelings overwhelming. Well, we live that life on a regular basis. But I do think it's important that we look for other examples where we've been able to do this well.

00:26:44.540 --> 00:26:51.300 Rehman Abdulrehman: And when we recognize. you know. look sociopolitical

00:26:52.500 --> 00:26:58.989 Rehman Abdulrehman: and even environmental circumstances that we live in impact our everyday choices and how we ignore them. We're in deep

00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:00.010 Rehman Abdulrehman: doo-doo

00:27:00.050 --> 00:27:03.440 Rehman Abdulrehman:  you know, if you think about

00:27:03.610 --> 00:27:08.450 Rehman Abdulrehman: our health. if we're complicit about our health. what would happen?

00:27:08.500 --> 00:27:17.670 Rehman Abdulrehman: I mean, I'd be eating cake all the time, and I'd be in serious trouble. but we're not overwhelmed when we're hit over the head with information about our health. No, we we

00:27:17.790 --> 00:27:36.989 Rehman Abdulrehman: take note. We sit up. We pay attention. We're like good. I've got to be mindful about my health, you know. The environment, you know. If we were complicit about that, you know, would be again indeed, doo doo! But we are thoughtful. We're hit over the head, and we should be hit over the head because we are in an urgent crisis when it comes to climate change.

00:27:37.450 --> 00:27:49.990 Rehman Abdulrehman: This is not that different. But again, it speaks to this. What you're saying is what a lot of people say. I'm feeling overwhelmed. It's a bit too much. This is exactly what I mean is that when we move towards

00:27:50.450 --> 00:28:00.310 Rehman Abdulrehman: issues that impact non racialized people, we move faster and more comfortably the moment we address it. For marginalized people of color, we slow it down.

00:28:01.910 --> 00:28:27.859 Mira Brancu: Oh, very good. Okay. I have a million more questions for you. However, we are up on another ad break. So, as a reminder, you're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mirabranku and our guest, Dr. Rayman, Abdul Raman. The Hard Skills airs every Friday at one Pm. Eastern, you can join us. Live right now and ask some questions. If you like us to answer them right back, and we will be back in just a moment with our guest.

00:30:27.830 --> 00:30:51.649 Mira Brancu: welcome. Welcome back. I am here on the hard skills with Dr. Riman, Abdul Riman, and we are talking about leading with uncertainty when it comes to De Andi efforts. Now, where we left off is, we've identified a number of challenges, 3 of them that I caught, or lack of awareness, fear, and motivation.

00:30:51.760 --> 00:31:07.780 Mira Brancu: And this sort of swing pendulum swing back and forth from that lack of awareness or ignoring complicity all the way through hyper vigilance or overreacting. And how do you? How do you get to the middle? And 3 things that I heard

00:31:07.970 --> 00:31:16.819 Mira Brancu: about how to start getting more activated and engaged in these kinds of efforts and on discussions.

00:31:16.830 --> 00:31:21.040 Mira Brancu: our mindfulness addressing our fragility

00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:28.389 Mira Brancu: and becoming more aware, one potential way to become more aware that

00:31:28.560 --> 00:31:57.529 Mira Brancu: Raymond shared with us is his test. assessment. When you go on that site and you take the assessment. It's a way for you to just have a private journey of awareness, so that it starts with you on your own and kind of a safe space when you're sort of starting to increase awareness. But there's probably other ways to do that as well. So I'm curious. Raymond, what best practices or frameworks do you have for

00:31:57.840 --> 00:32:04.729 Mira Brancu: the awareness building, in addition to that, and or mindfulness, or facing this

00:32:04.790 --> 00:32:15.910 Mira Brancu: fragility that that you know many white people experience when they don't experience the marginalization. How? How do we sort of enter into those areas?

00:32:16.550 --> 00:32:26.320 Rehman Abdulrehman: Well, I mean, so let's yeah, I mean, probably related to that is to assume we're we can assume that we're a do better. I mean, a lot of people assume that they step into the space thinking that you know

00:32:26.330 --> 00:32:35.359 Rehman Abdulrehman: they're do-gooders, and I think that complacency creates a risk for bias. So I think, being aware that is important is step number one, in terms of knowledge.

00:32:35.490 --> 00:32:40.229 Rehman Abdulrehman: I think it's I mean, in the same way, you know, I mentioned some public health issues, that

00:32:40.810 --> 00:32:45.779 Rehman Abdulrehman: how we've addressed them very quickly when it came to public health information. I really think the world

00:32:45.800 --> 00:32:52.539 Rehman Abdulrehman: leaders individually, but leaders as organizations. And I think about the media as a organizational leader in our society.

00:32:52.870 --> 00:33:04.269 Rehman Abdulrehman: really need to work on improving education and information. And that means understanding what white supremacy actually is. And white supremacy is really about a cultural supremacy more than anything else.

00:33:04.300 --> 00:33:11.490 Rehman Abdulrehman: and you'll see this particularly when you know. Like, for example, in my work with a lot of immigrants.

00:33:12.140 --> 00:33:14.949 Rehman Abdulrehman: you know, when you meet Eastern European immigrants.

00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:19.300 Rehman Abdulrehman: Who are phenotypically Caucasian.

00:33:20.110 --> 00:33:22.079 Rehman Abdulrehman: But you sit with them at the dinner table.

00:33:22.380 --> 00:33:31.589 Rehman Abdulrehman: and they'll talk about white people, white people, this and white people that. And they're not identifying themselves as white, because for them they're referring to culturally white people

00:33:31.910 --> 00:33:52.099 Rehman Abdulrehman: right? And and then coming to look for me as a clinician because they feel like, culturally, we're more aligned. And it's not about ethnicity. You know, it's it's about the cultural familiarity. So I think it's important that people understand what that means. But I also think it's important that people start to begin to understand that white supremacy

00:33:52.150 --> 00:33:56.799 Rehman Abdulrehman: doesn't just negatively impact people of color. But it also negatively impacts white people.

00:33:57.350 --> 00:34:09.700 Rehman Abdulrehman: you know, in in a modern diverse world, where we have to engage with all sorts of people, where our success is tied to the successful engagement and the ability to have empathy and trust with a broad range of people.

00:34:10.350 --> 00:34:15.469 Rehman Abdulrehman: White supremacy artificially inflates a sense of self worth in white people. And I'll and

00:34:15.590 --> 00:34:26.610 Rehman Abdulrehman: and it creates a sense of ignorance. And the research actually confirms that. And so I think people have to understand what that means and start to, not take personal offense to that.

00:34:26.870 --> 00:34:35.870 Rehman Abdulrehman: You know this concept of racism, the concept of bias. This isn't always a personal thing. The people who are often the most dangerous aren't the people burning the crosses?

00:34:36.219 --> 00:34:41.590 Rehman Abdulrehman: You know, people who are the most dangerous are the people who don't think that they're racist, and are.

00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:43.979 Rehman Abdulrehman: you know, killing people softly with

00:34:44.510 --> 00:34:50.979 Rehman Abdulrehman: racism that they're not mindful of. And that's really where that work needs to be done. So, you know, when we

00:34:51.050 --> 00:34:58.420 Rehman Abdulrehman: we have to understand that we can be good people and unintentionally engage in racist behavior that is harming other people.

00:34:58.810 --> 00:35:04.699 Rehman Abdulrehman: it's really, and that when we admit to that, we're not admitting that we are racist.

00:35:04.890 --> 00:35:23.489 Rehman Abdulrehman: but rather that we hold views that are incorrect, that in allow us to engage even unwittingly, in racist behavior, and we can apply that metaphor to all sorts of behaviors right like I could be unwittingly, you know, as an employer contributing to obesity in the workplace. By the

00:35:23.660 --> 00:35:26.470 Rehman Abdulrehman: because I'm unaware of what's in my vending machine

00:35:27.970 --> 00:35:41.449 Rehman Abdulrehman: right now, should I get easily offended by that? It's like, how dare you question my vending machine? My leadership skills are in question because there's only potato chips and snickers bars? No, I would be like, well, okay, let me be informed

00:35:41.520 --> 00:35:50.440 Rehman Abdulrehman: you're right. I will take that feedback. Let's change the content of that vending machine so that we have healthy eating habits in our workplace.

00:35:50.640 --> 00:35:56.199 Rehman Abdulrehman: simple, small thing, but we're not easily offended by that. But again, I think I think that's a critical piece.

00:35:56.870 --> 00:36:05.960 Rehman Abdulrehman: It's also, I think you mentioned it. Well, you know about this journey. It's also important to recognize that in the process of being mindful versus hyper, vigilant.

00:36:06.990 --> 00:36:14.429 Rehman Abdulrehman: this process of becoming culturally competent, which I think, is really the solution to a lot of this racism. That's a journey.

00:36:15.190 --> 00:36:30.009 Rehman Abdulrehman: This is not a niche topic that just applies to people of color in it impacts society as a whole. And we know that because the research actually confirms that when we have more inclusive spaces, not only are people more productive and happy at work. But we know actually, the economic output increases

00:36:30.190 --> 00:36:41.469 Rehman Abdulrehman: right? So even in not just in companies, but in in entire countries where there is, and I don't think there's a country that's doing it perfectly, but the ones that are doing it better

00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:45.329 Rehman Abdulrehman: there is actually increased gross domestic product.

00:36:46.950 --> 00:36:53.560 Rehman Abdulrehman: And for companies. We know, you know, that increase inclusivity increases productivity 10 times

00:36:54.640 --> 00:37:15.699 Rehman Abdulrehman: of the productivity. That would be if we didn't have that inclusion. So we have to start to recognize this as not a niche topic, but an issue that impacts all of society, and that it's a journey that we all need to be on, and that it be needs to become a part of our discussion on a regular basis. And I think when we do that, we move past cancel culture, and we start to move it into a culture. We're actually able to have a discussion

00:37:15.700 --> 00:37:45.089 Rehman Abdulrehman: in the same way. We've been able to discuss all sorts of issues tied to health and wellbeing, you know, you know, be it, you know, safe sex or covid. Now, you know, people aren't offended when it when we first started the issue with Covid, people were like, how dare you expect me to wear a mask in public, you know, a few months in, and the same naysayers were the ones who were wearing masks in public because they recognize the seriousness of the problem. So leads play an important role in leading that discussion and recognizing this is an issue that needs to be

00:37:45.200 --> 00:37:51.089 Rehman Abdulrehman: engaged with on a regular basis, both within their organizations and in society.

00:37:51.430 --> 00:37:56.280 Rehman Abdulrehman: And so what I say to organizations and leaders is that you have to think about the goal.

00:37:56.340 --> 00:38:07.229 Rehman Abdulrehman: not just internally within your organization, but also out facing externally, you have those 2 goals, and both of those are critically important to not just the success of your business and your organization.

00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:08.460 Rehman Abdulrehman: but also

00:38:08.620 --> 00:38:11.020 Rehman Abdulrehman: your ability to do well in society.

00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:20.079 Mira Brancu: Yeah, I you know. I'm hearing how closely this is tied to all kinds of

00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:23.809 Mira Brancu: positive, healthy outcomes

00:38:23.890 --> 00:38:32.670 Mira Brancu: for individuals. companies and societies. You know as I as I'm hearing you talk, I'm thinking. like, if

00:38:32.890 --> 00:38:43.139 Mira Brancu: if we can get out of this unhealthy obsession with white supremacy, right? Which is which is

00:38:43.330 --> 00:38:44.930 Mira Brancu: dangerous to our health.

00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:50.349 Mira Brancu: And outcomes the the outcome on the other side

00:38:50.510 --> 00:38:55.190 Mira Brancu: is so much more it's

00:38:55.650 --> 00:39:01.159 Mira Brancu: and and it's not just sort of like health and well being, but

00:39:02.160 --> 00:39:06.150 Mira Brancu: I can only imagine the kind of

00:39:06.470 --> 00:39:21.470 Mira Brancu: talent that you can unlock as a leader of a company of an organization, or even of a team. that where you respect and appreciate and understand, and can pull out the very best

00:39:21.610 --> 00:39:27.559 Mira Brancu: out of people, because you don't have one view of what's best, or right, or

00:39:27.830 --> 00:39:29.650 Mira Brancu: better, or something like that.

00:39:30.140 --> 00:39:36.929 Rehman Abdulrehman: Absolutely. And most leaders I work with. They like to have their ear to the ground. They'd like to know what's happening in their business and their organization.

00:39:37.350 --> 00:39:41.029 Rehman Abdulrehman: But I'm gonna go back to that statement that racism is the best kept secret.

00:39:41.090 --> 00:39:50.579 Rehman Abdulrehman: People of color are not telling you. They're talking behind your back, absolutely at our dinner tables. And that's the whole point of my podcast, is to make those conversations public. So people know.

00:39:50.650 --> 00:39:55.339 Rehman Abdulrehman: But at our dinner tables, when we're alone with people who are similar to us, we talk.

00:39:56.700 --> 00:39:58.589 Rehman Abdulrehman: we have conversations about.

00:39:58.660 --> 00:40:06.570 Rehman Abdulrehman: Did you notice that? I mean, women do this around men right? When you notice somebody is being sexist and you're around other women, you'd be like, guess what did you notice that?

00:40:07.230 --> 00:40:21.539 Rehman Abdulrehman: And so I think it's time that we move past that. And I think leaders need to work on being aware and having their ear to the ground of the issues that are impacting the success of their business. And I think racism and marginalization are those critical issues.

00:40:21.660 --> 00:40:24.169 Rehman Abdulrehman: And so can you imagine

00:40:24.410 --> 00:40:36.149 Rehman Abdulrehman: a leader who who may not be a person of color. but has their ear to ground to understand? I can tell you. as a person of color myself. that goes a long way.

00:40:36.220 --> 00:40:47.170 Rehman Abdulrehman: You get a lot of street credit people respect you. They're more likely to follow what you're saying. They're more likely to engage with you. Trust is there? Because they know that you get it

00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:50.800 Rehman Abdulrehman: when you get it. You've engaged in trust.

00:40:51.530 --> 00:40:53.700 Rehman Abdulrehman: But it's critical. We go back to

00:40:53.820 --> 00:41:00.430 Rehman Abdulrehman: it has to has to go back to our understanding. What what does it mean when we say we have a culture of white supremacy.

00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:26.270 Rehman Abdulrehman: So I wanna go back to that. No, let's let's do that. Cause III I think that would be helpful. So I mean white supremacy. When people hear that I think we have these really archaic motions of what that means. We think of the Kkk. We think of burning crosses. Think of separate seating spaces, and most of us would never identify with that level of racism. So we think that's not us doesn't apply to me. I'm good

00:41:26.790 --> 00:41:33.299 Rehman Abdulrehman: white supremacy. Modern white. You see, modern modern modern day, white supremacy is really a psychological issue.

00:41:33.930 --> 00:41:37.489 Rehman Abdulrehman: It's a standard that we've internalized. That's based on a white standard

00:41:37.680 --> 00:41:46.640 Rehman Abdulrehman: what we consider to be professional, what we consider to be ideal beauty standards, what we consider to be good education, will we, what we consider to be anything. To be

00:41:47.210 --> 00:41:54.399 Rehman Abdulrehman: higher up is usually tied to white culture. and we ignore and invalidate and create no space

00:41:54.500 --> 00:41:59.760 Rehman Abdulrehman: for any other way of looking at the world, or business or engagement at all.

00:42:00.120 --> 00:42:24.369 Rehman Abdulrehman: Now, that's really what that is, and that's something that I think that people need to start to pay attention to. And we can look at that in terms of you know, who do we see as leaders? Yeah, in organizations predominantly all white, I mean, even in the United States. We've had one black President now, one black and South Asian Vice President in Canada 0, you know. When it comes to Prime ministers. So when it comes to

00:42:24.410 --> 00:42:30.569 Rehman Abdulrehman: even cultural representation of holidays, what holidays are we paying attention to? What days do people get off?

00:42:30.650 --> 00:42:34.089 Rehman Abdulrehman: That's this cultural supremacy, white supremacy. Right there.

00:42:34.280 --> 00:42:39.699 Rehman Abdulrehman: we need to start to see what's really happening and understand the psychological impact of

00:42:39.730 --> 00:42:40.860 Rehman Abdulrehman: of these

00:42:41.900 --> 00:42:47.019 Rehman Abdulrehman: of the way we've lived, and the way we've looked at the world that we've inherited from racist ancestors

00:42:47.790 --> 00:42:53.780 Rehman Abdulrehman: and start to undo some of that rather than just accepting that as the norm and the standard

00:42:54.160 --> 00:42:56.560 Mira Brancu:  yeah.

00:42:56.670 --> 00:42:59.580 Mira Brancu:  and

00:43:01.660 --> 00:43:04.929 Mira Brancu: part of undoing is just knowing

00:43:05.050 --> 00:43:13.779 Mira Brancu: what all of that is right, like it's if you don't realize that this is part of white supremacy. And and you think that this is like

00:43:14.050 --> 00:43:16.540 Mira Brancu: this is just a normal thing, that everybody's on board with

00:43:16.690 --> 00:43:26.950 Mira Brancu: right, that that will interfere with our ability to engage in the questioning and the challenging. Right? Well, Freud, Freud said, insight is the cure

00:43:27.530 --> 00:43:33.930 Rehman Abdulrehman: right? Right? Freud? Again. We got it right?

00:43:34.090 --> 00:43:53.489 Mira Brancu: Okay, we are nearing an ad break. You're listening to the hard skills with me, Dr. Mira Branku and our guest, Dr. Raikman Abdul Abdul Rikmann, and you can ask any questions that you like. Right now, online, and we'll answer them. Otherwise we will be back with our guest in just a moment

00:45:57.050 --> 00:46:04.370 Mira Brancu: Welcome, welcome back! So as we were talking about like trying to understand

00:46:04.410 --> 00:46:14.930 Mira Brancu: what is modern day? White supremacy. What does it look like? And you're describing this. I started imagining, the matrix.

00:46:15.120 --> 00:46:21.689 Mira Brancu: you know, on the matrix like you get the red pill and you get the blue pill and the people who decided

00:46:22.250 --> 00:46:30.610 Mira Brancu: I don't remember on the blue pill. What's the blue pill decided that he, you know they're they're not interested in

00:46:30.830 --> 00:46:34.600 Mira Brancu: real life. They want. They want the comfort

00:46:34.930 --> 00:46:36.829 Mira Brancu: of the system

00:46:37.060 --> 00:46:49.330 Mira Brancu: to protect them and to live a comfortable life of ignoring what's actually happening around them, that actually has caused humanity to

00:46:49.490 --> 00:47:04.710 Mira Brancu: be used against themselves. Whereas if you took the red pill for whichever one it's you deciding like this is not acceptable to be used this way by a system, and I'm not gonna buy into it. And I'm gonna fight.

00:47:05.010 --> 00:47:07.740 Mira Brancu: And once you take it, though.

00:47:07.890 --> 00:47:18.709 Mira Brancu: you really can't undo what you see like, then you have to like, actually feel like you need to take responsibility for what you see. And it's kind of like how you're describing this.

00:47:18.790 --> 00:47:21.440 Rehman Abdulrehman: Yeah, please call me Morpheus from that one.

00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:40.400 Rehman Abdulrehman: It it it is ultimately that. And and what happens that that's that ethnic and cultural identity development that applies to all people, racialized or not. Is that once we have that awareness. It allows us to start to feel comfortable in our own skin.

00:47:41.190 --> 00:47:43.570 Rehman Abdulrehman: and then eventually to be able to advocate

00:47:44.210 --> 00:47:49.480 Rehman Abdulrehman: for who we are and what we need. Yeah, and I'd like to pull that out even more like

00:47:49.500 --> 00:47:55.069 Mira Brancu:  there is something so powerful

00:47:55.420 --> 00:48:07.959 Mira Brancu: and and an empowering when you actually can understand yourself well, and you can understand what's played into. who you are.

00:48:08.140 --> 00:48:22.010 Mira Brancu: how you've come to be. why, you think the way that you think and make like active decisions about it instead of feeling like you have to fit into some norm

00:48:22.280 --> 00:48:24.819 Mira Brancu: or what people tell you.

00:48:24.900 --> 00:48:36.420 Mira Brancu: And so that includes engaging in these kinds of conversations is like, it's it's not it. It can actually be a really good thing for

00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:39.070 Mira Brancu: people to engage in just for themselves

00:48:39.650 --> 00:48:48.989 Rehman Abdulrehman: a absolutely. It's why I think part of the solution here is for leaders to have that coaching to address this right like it's kind of like your ear to the ground.

00:48:50.090 --> 00:49:06.039 Rehman Abdulrehman: If you start to understand what's happening in the real world, you get to see it for what happens, and that that gives you the agility you need to succeed in a very diverse world. We live in diverse world, but in order to be able to succeed in that you need the agility of of the understanding of the mindset and the worldview of different groups of people.

00:49:06.410 --> 00:49:14.699 Mira Brancu: Absolutely. Now tell us more about your upcoming book. My glorified pamphlet is

00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:19.019 Mira Brancu: for an easy read folks. It's

00:49:19.210 --> 00:49:21.650 Mira Brancu: right, accessible.

00:49:21.730 --> 00:49:34.680 Rehman Abdulrehman: accessible. II think that the skills to becoming anti-racist and culturally competent, and the book is called Developing Anti-racist Cultural Competence, which I think, you know, was was initially

00:49:35.190 --> 00:49:42.870 Rehman Abdulrehman: focused on clinicians. And I'm like this book actually is is a skills book for anybody doesn't matter what sector of work you're in. So I wrote the book

00:49:42.940 --> 00:49:47.150 Rehman Abdulrehman: open-ended for anybody. no matter what sector of work you're in.

00:49:47.720 --> 00:49:52.759 Rehman Abdulrehman: because I think that this need to be anti-rac, anti-racist, and culturally competent

00:49:52.910 --> 00:49:57.349 Rehman Abdulrehman: is, is a necessary tool in our modern diverse world.

00:49:57.700 --> 00:50:02.189 Rehman Abdulrehman: The book is is not excessively long, but

00:50:02.360 --> 00:50:17.840 Rehman Abdulrehman: as a quick way of addressing the commonplace issues. And I'd like to think I turn the concept of cultural competence on its head. I mean there's models that I review on there that really unfortunately approach it from a National geographic anthropological issue where we're learning about the other.

00:50:17.980 --> 00:50:30.959 Rehman Abdulrehman: This book is less about learning about the other, and more about learning about ourselves. Because I think if we understand ourselves better, we're better able to understand other people. We have to first begin by understanding ourselves. And that's what this book is.

00:50:32.210 --> 00:50:44.489 Mira Brancu: Excellent. Yeah, I mean, I could just imagine how hugely empowering it is just to learn about how to become more anti-racist and and culturally competent and have that skill set

00:50:44.530 --> 00:50:48.630 Mira Brancu: to navigate. You know, today's world of uncertainty.

00:50:49.120 --> 00:51:15.450 Rehman Abdulrehman: Meta solution

00:51:15.450 --> 00:51:26.159 Mira Brancu: and she said. I'd love to just know your respective thoughts, yours and mine, about how we can avoid being performative

00:51:26.240 --> 00:51:38.180 Mira Brancu: in our support for diversity as leaders. And let's also start with, what does that mean? Performative and then how can we sort of avoid doing this thing?

00:51:39.180 --> 00:51:47.099 Rehman Abdulrehman: You want to start? Okay, I think it goes back to that knowledge and that understanding.

00:51:47.400 --> 00:51:53.430 Rehman Abdulrehman: I think when we have poor knowledge and understanding, and I'm talking about true nuanced understanding will be performative.

00:51:53.580 --> 00:51:56.359 Rehman Abdulrehman: you know. So let's go back to Covid.

00:51:56.870 --> 00:52:00.450 Rehman Abdulrehman: What's really functional. you know, if we.

00:52:00.770 --> 00:52:11.610 Rehman Abdulrehman: if we claim that we are social, distancing, but really kind of secretly engaging with other people. It's like, Oh, there are, my friends, that you know. That that means we don't have a good understanding of how Covid worked.

00:52:11.900 --> 00:52:19.900 Rehman Abdulrehman: and it was performative, and once it's performative, it actually became very dangerous. The same thing is true for issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion.

00:52:20.150 --> 00:52:35.709 Rehman Abdulrehman: If we don't understand what the needs are people. And, as I said, it is a secret. If we're not really reaching out, if we're not understanding, not just in our professional lives, but our personal lives. We don't have that newest null, nuanced knowledge and understanding. We don't have that proximity

00:52:35.730 --> 00:52:49.590 Rehman Abdulrehman: to the problem that we would get that. And so to avoid becoming performative. I think we need that proximity to it's why I created living with racismcom is because those are those are individual stories of experiences with racism

00:52:49.690 --> 00:52:56.079 Rehman Abdulrehman: that pull you front and center even the videography. We've got people facing right at you like they're talking to you.

00:52:56.640 --> 00:53:04.270 Rehman Abdulrehman: And we wanted people to have that very personal and intimate experience of what that was like, to increase that proximity.

00:53:04.500 --> 00:53:14.980 Rehman Abdulrehman: and that has to be done outside of the work time. That's the news, right? In order for us to gain that knowledge. We can't just be doing it. During our work time. We're gonna ask ourselves. How many people of color do we have friends.

00:53:15.700 --> 00:53:16.510 Rehman Abdulrehman: you know?

00:53:16.620 --> 00:53:31.290 Rehman Abdulrehman: Are we only going to places, you know, as tourists? Where are we beginning to recognize, you know. those places are part of our community. If you go to a you know a Chinese restaurant, you know, there's a book called

00:53:31.570 --> 00:53:32.709 Rehman Abdulrehman: What is it called

00:53:33.380 --> 00:53:35.510 Rehman Abdulrehman: something nation

00:53:35.560 --> 00:53:36.849 Rehman Abdulrehman: chop suey nation.

00:53:36.910 --> 00:53:46.779 Rehman Abdulrehman: And they talk about how these immigrant families from Southeast Asia or East Asia. We're just greeting food that was marketable to

00:53:46.940 --> 00:53:54.910 Rehman Abdulrehman: white people, but not really authentic. But if you ever go to one of those restaurants with people who are from that community, you get a whole different menu.

00:53:55.490 --> 00:53:59.549 Rehman Abdulrehman: Right? You got a different level of proximity and a different level of understanding.

00:53:59.560 --> 00:54:02.639 Rehman Abdulrehman: So I think in order to avoid becoming performative.

00:54:03.120 --> 00:54:09.279 Rehman Abdulrehman: we need to have a true in-depth understanding where? Where we see people who are different from us as a part of our community

00:54:09.380 --> 00:54:11.570 Rehman Abdulrehman: versus outsiders to that community.

00:54:11.830 --> 00:54:14.839 Mira Brancu: Yeah, yeah. And I'll add to that.

00:54:15.030 --> 00:54:18.419 Mira Brancu: you know. Think about the word performative performance.

00:54:18.690 --> 00:54:28.390 Mira Brancu: You're acting. You're not actually engaging in the real thing, right? You're acting as if. But then you you sort of

00:54:28.410 --> 00:54:31.439 Mira Brancu: leave that acting, and you go back to your regular

00:54:31.840 --> 00:54:36.389 Mira Brancu: stuff that you do right. But it's not really

00:54:36.500 --> 00:54:39.340 Mira Brancu: engaging in

00:54:39.450 --> 00:54:49.780 Mira Brancu:  real life conversations with real life people, right? All right. We've got one more before we close. Dr. Sunny Lampaso.

00:54:49.870 --> 00:55:02.790 Mira Brancu: who is also an executive coach wonders. How do you see leaders at the top shape values around these issues? And how do you? How do mid level leaders help or hinder these conversations. This is kind of a meaty

00:55:03.060 --> 00:55:07.480 Mira Brancu: question, for, like the last 2 min. But what do you think?

00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:21.080 Rehman Abdulrehman: Well, let's simplify it to me. Leaders are leaders are leaders. and you know, mid level leaders, upper level leaders. You have influence. The moment you have influence. I think you've got responsibility. I mean, let's quote Spider-man, you know, with, you know, with great

00:55:21.320 --> 00:55:34.779 Rehman Abdulrehman: skill comes great responsibility or something like that. And and I think when leaders lead, you set the tone. You you know, as a concept of modeling that happens psychologically. If you understand what's happening.

00:55:34.850 --> 00:55:45.590 Rehman Abdulrehman: you can either, whether you're upper level, mid level, you can either create a barrier to understanding, or open the doors to understanding which is necessary for true inclusion.

00:55:45.940 --> 00:56:03.170 Mira Brancu: Opening the door. So understanding love it. That's where we should leave off. Thank you, Dr. Ramon. Raymond Abdul Rafman. He is with lead, with That's where you can find him anywhere else that people can find you and your work.

00:56:03.350 --> 00:56:21.450 Mira Brancu: I'm you know. I'm on Linkedin, and if you want to see my cakes I'm on Instagram. These cakes on Instagram people. They are, amazing huge skill set alright. So what did you take away? More importantly, what is one small change? You? The audience can implement this week

00:56:21.540 --> 00:56:23.740 Mira Brancu: based on what you learn from me, man.

00:56:24.120 --> 00:56:27.900 Mira Brancu: share it with us on Linkedin, so we can share you on.

00:56:28.720 --> 00:56:43.430 Mira Brancu: You are here with me, Dr. May broncho on the hard skills, and we're really excited that you were able to join us. Join us next week when we'll have one more really special guest talking about when not to trust your gut.

00:56:44.410 --> 00:56:45.309 Mira Brancu: Thank you.

download this episode of