Frank About Health

Thursday, January 19, 2023
Facebook Live Video from 2023/01/19 - Following Up with The Replacement Child Forum to discuss Forgiveness

Facebook Live Video from 2023/01/19 - Following Up with The Replacement Child Forum to discuss Forgiveness


2023/01/19 - Following Up with The Replacement Child Forum to discuss Forgiveness

[NEW EPISODE] Following Up with The Replacement Child Forum to discuss Forgiveness

Thursdays 5:00pm - 6:00pm (EDT)


Frank About Health will have a discussion with Judy Mandel and 2 other founding members of the Replacement Child Forum Sarah Vollman and Rita Battat to follow up on the discussion that we had with Judy Mandel on understanding the forum's mission on helping survivors of Replacement Child Syndrome and to start a discussion on the path to self-forgiveness and forgiveness of others who within the family made them feel "Less Than". 

Our last 2 shows with Judy on White Flag and Replacement Child just proved to be an instrumental platform for understanding, mental health, addiction, identity issues and try to come up with a way of acceptance and forgiveness.

The Replacement Child Forum will be explored throughout the hour to determine other possible solutions for mental health awareness.

Also added into this episode is Dr. Jennifer Griggs, MD who is a Forgiveness Coach that Phyllis is bringing to the conversation to provide insight and learning in how to approach forgiveness for self help and guidance.


If there are members of the audience who are replacement children, they will have a resource to turn to especially if mental health issues are triggered by their experience as a replacement child like Judy wrote about in her book Replacement Child.

Forgiveness is also something that Trauma victims and people suffering from other mental health issues could take away with the coaching expressed by Dr. Griggs during the show. 

Tune in for this healthy conversation at

Show Notes

Segment 1

Today, Frank welcomes Judy Mandel along with The Advisory Board member, Sarah Vollman and Rita Battat, co-founder of the Replacement Child Forum. Also, Dr. Jennifer Griggs, MD will join in on the conversation bringing her insight. They will bring about the whole topic of forgiveness. The narrow definition of a replacement child as Judy says, is a child conceived and born to replace a child who has died. It's also been expanded to include a child conceived and born to replace another family member who has died, born shortly after a death, miscarage, and abortion. In the context of adoption, this child may be replaced or have been replaced by a conceived child or assigned to replace someone who has a disability. Also important, Rita mentions that children born or adopted after the death of a child are not automatically replacement children. It's a trauma that happens within the family. Sarah speaks about her situation with relation to this syndrome. Like Sarah and Judy, there are people out there who are replacement children and may not know where to turn to. On the website of the replacement child forum, they have a lot of resources that can help people understand this topic that isn't spoken about as much. Judy, Rita, and Sarah discuss how they've found each other in the process of their own self discovery and the bond they created.

Segment 2

The conversation pivots towards the topic of forgiveness. Phyllis introduces their special guest, Dr. Jennifer Griggs, who has an accomplished career as a physician, both academically and clinically in the field of oncology. She is also a forgiveness and dignity coach. She makes note of the misunderstanding that forgiveness is about forgiving and forgetting. But what happened made who you are and that's how we keep from ending up in the same situations. She also explains that by forgiving, “we are giving up all hope of a better past.” It’s an emotional shift where we no longer replay the intrusive thoughts whether it's something that we did or something that was done to us. Dr. Griggs also shares that dignity is something that we are born with and our inherent value and worth. It also relates to identity in this case. There are 10 elements of dignity in the work that Donna Hicks has done at Harvard; she has done work across cultures and different countries. Dr. Griggs explains these elements, how it relates to replacement children and practicing forgiveness within these elements. To begin this path of forgiveness, Griggs mentions that it's important to understand what it is not and what it is. The next step is to tell your story and talk it to the right people who will listen and to tell it objectively. She also says to name the hurt and those feelings that go deeper. Another step can be to grow and foster empathy for ourselves and others as well as to commit to live a life towards the future.

Segment 3

Frank talks with Griggs about the complexity of forgiveness and the elements of dignity. Griggs mentions that a lot of times when we want to forgive, it may not just be one thing. She gives an example of children forgiving family members for things that happened. She says to break it down by focusing on one event, the element of dignity and work through it. Different vents can violate different elements of dignity. Phyllis relates this to her work in coaching clients in forgiveness and bereavement where the process can start with denial, moving onto anger, etc. many of her clients may fall back into square one. Grigg mentions that this also happens with forgiveness. The gal she says is to deflate and collapse that “heat”. Though these flare ups are normal. It means that something important has happened. In grief, we are remembering the love and memories with someone, so we don't want to forget, rather we want to collapse the pain. This is the similar idea Grigg says that we should view forgiveness. Judy, Rita and Sarah share how much they resonate with Dr. Grigg's explanation of the steps to forgiveness and the elements of dignity that are violated, something that they weren't aware of as children until they got older. They discuss not losing hope for a better future and reframing your story, moving from being the victim of your story to being the hero.

Segment 4

Dr. Griggs says that everyone can benefit from understanding forgiveness. Sarah mentions how well Griggs defined forgiveness in terms of replacement children because while forgiveness in other situations can feel like being entangled in the relationships with the people who hurt us, in this case, its forgiveness for ourselves to have acceptance about our past. Sarah says that people in her position as replacement children can learn to have more acceptance about what their childhood was and wasn’t. Rita adds on that when you can understand where someone (eg. parents) is coming from, then you can forgive. You try to look at the person’s life from their perspective and their losses. To learn more about these topics and similar, you can check out Judy Mandel’s books Replacement Child and White Flag; Rita’s books Replacement Children: The Unconscious Script which will also be turned into an audio book. Sarah is currently co-authoring a book with Joanne O’Leary on this topic and has a clinical article that you can also find on You can connect with Jennifer Griggs on Linkedin, and where you can learn more about her forgiveness group and self forgiveness coaching. She is also on Instagram at Drjennifergriggscoaching.


00:00:42.690 --> 00:00:45.990 Frank R. Harrison: hey, everybody, and welcome to this episode of Frank about health

00:00:46.010 --> 00:00:50.380 Frank R. Harrison: for those of you who remember we did a show around Thanksgiving time with the

00:00:50.400 --> 00:01:07.929 Frank R. Harrison: replacement, child Forum, Judy Mandel, Rita Batat and we had Christina Shalinski with us. But for today we're introducing Sarah Vulman, who is on the Advisory board of the Replacement Child Forum, and we were then talking about

00:01:07.940 --> 00:01:25.580 Frank R. Harrison: the purpose of the Forum and its mission to communicate and educate with various individuals that have gone through. What Judy dubbed in shows that we did, together with Phyllis about replacement, child syndrome, and what we wanted to do then, which we're going to do today, as promised.

00:01:25.590 --> 00:01:41.880 Frank R. Harrison: is bring about the whole topic of forgiveness, which is something that we're going to learn from our added special guest, Dr. Jennifer, Dr. Jennifer Griggs, who, we will discuss more in detail in our second segment. But overall this is going to be an interesting learning, opportunity

00:01:41.890 --> 00:01:54.690 Frank R. Harrison: mit ctl. And for various people who have both been dealing with the issues surrounding the search for identity, if they've been within. If they've been replacement children 150.

00:01:54.700 --> 00:02:04.909 Frank R. Harrison: Or if you are still an individual who is going through forgiveness issues, we hope that what we learn today will also help those of you as well. Let me first issue my disclaimer

00:02:04.940 --> 00:02:31.130 Frank R. Harrison: for everyone out there listening to this program. Please know that this is food for thought that is not meant to dissuade you from your ongoing mental or physical health treatments that you are doing with your primary care, physician, or to try to alter your medication regimen, if you have one. This is meant as to be a open discussion for thought and education, and not meant to be the views of Frank about health or talk radio and Nyc.

00:02:31.140 --> 00:02:50.019 Frank R. Harrison: Mit Ctl, and that all being said, I want to welcome you back, Phyllis. I know we've had a long vacation, and at the same time we want to definitely have an open discussion with you about the issue of forgiveness which, as you recall when we did the show with Judy on both replacement, child and White flag. The topic of forgiveness was very poignant

00:02:50.030 --> 00:03:03.940 Frank R. Harrison: mit ctl, and and very pivotal for what we're going to discuss this afternoon, so that all being said, welcome to all of you for this episode, or for being here on this episode of Frank about health. It's good to be back, frank and happy. New Year to you, and to all your listeners, 150.

00:03:04.010 --> 00:03:11.909 Phyllis Quinlan: I'm very excited about this particular program. I knew little of the subject, and I am learning exponentially

00:03:11.970 --> 00:03:22.600 Phyllis Quinlan: each and every time we have Judy and her colleagues with us, so i'm really looking forward to this. So would you mind if I jumped in and asked the first question.

00:03:23.320 --> 00:03:44.380 Frank R. Harrison: Oh, oh, sure! But at the same time, I think what I wanted to learn more about Sarah Vleman's story as a replacement, child, because we didn't have a chance to discuss that in November, and then we can definitely open up into the questions. I think it's important to define what exactly the concept of replacement child is, since it's not a common

00:03:44.560 --> 00:04:04.380 Phyllis Quinlan: that we use in in in everyday language. So, Judy, could I ask you just to give us a little bit of a construct around what the is, please? Yeah, absolutely. and you know i'll give you first. The the narrow definition is, is a child conceived and and born to replace a child who's died.

00:04:04.490 --> 00:04:11.059 Judy Mandel: that's the the narrow, and you know strictest definition of it, but

00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:24.569 Judy Mandel: it's also been expanded. to also include a a child conceived to excuse me, born to replace another member of the family who's died

00:04:24.580 --> 00:04:33.259 Judy Mandel: or born shortly after a death still birth, or miscarriage, or abortion, or so-called subsequent child.

00:04:33.450 --> 00:04:39.450 Judy Mandel: it may be replacing sibling, or another member of the family later on, due to death or disability.

00:04:39.510 --> 00:04:48.200 Judy Mandel: and also in the context of adoption of a child replacing or being replaced by a conceived child.

00:04:48.330 --> 00:04:54.960 Judy Mandel: It may also be, you know, someone assigned to replace someone who is, you know.

00:04:55.180 --> 00:05:07.840 Judy Mandel: has a disability. Sometimes a Ch. Is a challenged sibling. I had that in my case I was kind of a a double replacement child. So in some sense, and you know.

00:05:07.880 --> 00:05:13.289 Judy Mandel: twinless twins is another piece of the the the puzzle here

00:05:13.330 --> 00:05:19.790 Judy Mandel: of of a child, a twin that had has a a sibling who had died, you know, in utero.

00:05:19.860 --> 00:05:21.130 Judy Mandel: so

00:05:22.010 --> 00:05:27.479 Judy Mandel: it's. It's not as simple as you know, just replacing a child who who has died

00:05:28.570 --> 00:05:32.589 Judy Mandel: And also I we want it. We always want to say that

00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:52.220 Judy Mandel: the the the the child who's a subsequent child is not necessarily a a replacement child. It's all. It's all in how they are treated and and their specific condition. and so we want to make sure. You know that people don't think that is always the case. I don't know if that

00:05:52.230 --> 00:06:01.929 Judy Mandel: because I do think it's such an unusual topic, it's my circle. Sure, I appreciate you enlightening us with that.

00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:11.219 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: But I just say something that's important. That children born or adopted after the death of a child are not automatically replacement children.

00:06:11.720 --> 00:06:16.669 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: Okay, this is a trauma that happens within the family. Right?

00:06:16.750 --> 00:06:17.490 Judy Mandel: Right?

00:06:18.730 --> 00:06:19.710 Okay.

00:06:19.910 --> 00:06:27.039 Frank R. Harrison: I know, Judy. We obviously know about your story and the whole relationship to that plane crash that happened in Elizabeth.

00:06:27.060 --> 00:06:38.649 Frank R. Harrison: New Jersey. Not to mention, of course, your book replacement, child, and I think, Rita, you shared your story as well. But, Sarah, Would you like to share exactly your situation with relation to the syndrome?

00:06:38.910 --> 00:06:42.129 Sarah Vollmann: Yes, thank you for asking so.

00:06:42.250 --> 00:06:59.240 Sarah Vollmann: I was born into a family. I was born after I had a sister who died, so i'm the youngest in my family. My brother was 9. My sister Julie was 6, and My sister Anne was just a baby. She was about one.

00:06:59.250 --> 00:07:03.549 Sarah Vollmann: and my six-year-old sister Julie drowned in an accident.

00:07:03.590 --> 00:07:21.059 Sarah Vollmann: so it was a very sudden obviously death. She was a healthy, happy, very loved child. My family was extremely traumatized by her loss. Everyone in different ways, my siblings, as well as my parents

00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:38.129 Sarah Vollmann: and what I found out later. I didn't find this out till I was adult was an adult, Was my father said to me you actually were the only baby that was planned in the family, because after my sister died My family was so miserable.

00:07:38.140 --> 00:07:57.509 Sarah Vollmann: They ended up kind of selling the house and moving to Italy for 6 months, which they didn't really even have the money to do. But they were so bereft. I think they were just trying to kind of find a way forward, and it was when they were in Italy that my mom one time late at night, my father said 1 One night late at night she woke up, and he was downstairs writing.

00:07:57.530 --> 00:08:01.879 Sarah Vollmann: and she came downstairs and said, I want to have another baby, and that baby is me.

00:08:02.050 --> 00:08:19.020 Sarah Vollmann: so Like many of us, our stories come out, you know, and you you wonder, you know, would I be here if this hadn't happened? That's just one question of many that many people born after loss asked themselves. But it just gives you a little bit of a frame of kind of how

00:08:19.030 --> 00:08:23.289 Sarah Vollmann: our lives starting, and how our life story began, which really

00:08:23.350 --> 00:08:30.970 Sarah Vollmann: for us our life story didn't really just begin in the moment we were born, but began with the loss in many ways. It's very entwined with this, with the death

00:08:31.540 --> 00:08:32.630 Frank R. Harrison: that's interesting.

00:08:33.220 --> 00:08:43.720 Frank R. Harrison: Well, and Judy when we discussed about the Forums development, and how it came to be over the course of how many years, the last 5 years.

00:08:43.970 --> 00:08:53.150 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: the Forum we've we've been in Rita, where it's 2 years right? We've come together. It'll be 3 in May.

00:08:53.300 --> 00:08:55.130 Judy Mandel: Right.

00:08:55.500 --> 00:09:10.589 Frank R. Harrison: All of you have developed new ways of being able to welcome individuals like Sarah as well as yourselves, into this group to to service, and not only a so so a source of support, but I gather a source of

00:09:10.750 --> 00:09:14.639 Frank R. Harrison: being able to heal and educate and actually

00:09:14.790 --> 00:09:32.109 Judy Mandel: derive a platform that's out there for outreach, correct? And you know what we try to do is is provide information first of all, with people they can. We have lots of research that's on our on our website that can help people understand this, as you say, you know

00:09:32.120 --> 00:09:46.169 Judy Mandel: that it's it's not a common thing that people talk about. so we wanted to have some you know a resource. We wanted to be a resource that was training. Really, you know, each person that comes in has a different story.

00:09:46.290 --> 00:09:49.519 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: and it's a different degree that they have felt this.

00:09:49.760 --> 00:09:53.190 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: So it's like we learn from everybody also.

00:09:53.500 --> 00:10:08.730 Judy Mandel: and we we've had some webinars that have brought a community together, which is really a fascinating thing to do. and especially Christina, who has been on the show before, has has been doing some teaching of

00:10:08.740 --> 00:10:27.490 Judy Mandel: of her colleagues, so that there are therapists who know what to do with. You know a replacement, child, because we've all been. I know I had been to several therapists who never touched on this never never asked the questions. And yeah, I just want to add that

00:10:27.500 --> 00:10:45.529 Sarah Vollmann: I so i'm a therapist, and I specialize in grief and loss. It's like not an accident right with my background that I wound up in this role. but growing up like Judy and reader, saying, I know that I looked for information and resources about people like me, and I was unable to ever find anything.

00:10:45.540 --> 00:11:01.950 Sarah Vollmann: And and I know that was part of my path of leading me to do this work. And then I ended up doing a research study. that I published about subsequent replacement children. because there was so little out there, and the people that I interviewed so many of them said.

00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:17.569 Sarah Vollmann: you know, and my normal is my experience like other people. What are other people saying? Because no one had had an opportunity to really connect with other people who had been through the same thing, because it's such a quiet, disenfranchised, silent loss. It really is. So you don't realize that it's a real thing.

00:11:17.580 --> 00:11:27.180 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: you know until you start talking about it. And then all of a sudden, people come out of the woodwork and say, oh, my God, that's either my story or I know somebody whose story it is.

00:11:27.890 --> 00:11:32.810 Phyllis Quinlan: You you help me understand how you all found one another, and how the group began.

00:11:33.010 --> 00:11:42.610 Judy Mandel: It's a. It's really kind of an interesting story. I think it's it was our it was our writing, and you know I I had a book that came out

00:11:42.660 --> 00:11:55.720 Judy Mandel: and Rita, I think what you and I came together first from the you know. And and because she was in the when my book came out. She was in the midst of writing her book, I believe.

00:11:55.760 --> 00:12:02.540 Judy Mandel: and Christina was in the midst of writing her book, and had been researching this for years. And so we kind of, you know.

00:12:02.550 --> 00:12:23.389 Judy Mandel: over the ether, you know, found each other and it's. It's really was an amazing coming together, and it was almost like a sisterhood. You know we found so many, so many things that we identified with that were the same. And you know, relationship issues. And you know Bill identity issues.

00:12:23.400 --> 00:12:42.850 Judy Mandel: I know Rita and I especially, you know and said, Well, how many colleges did you go to? You know all kind of trying to find our place, and there were so many similarities that we we almost felt, related to each other

00:12:42.860 --> 00:12:57.280 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: that was into it. You know it's like All of a sudden you find someone who's gone through some of the same stuff, and you really just can talk a language that other people don't understand, with no other common denominator. Really right?

00:12:57.290 --> 00:13:07.340 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: Absolutely. What is that funny salary is shaking her head. Because I know it's the same for you, too. I know. I know there's even some uncanny similarities in our stories.

00:13:07.580 --> 00:13:09.839 Judy Mandel: but it sounds like you.

00:13:09.890 --> 00:13:26.860 Frank R. Harrison: Each of you basically found each other in the process of your own self discovery. So I guess, Phyllis, that's how they found each other, and I guess, and indirectly, I guess, to do the research of their books. They probably, of course, worked with a therapist, so by default, I guess, finding the therapist was. It was a professional necessity.

00:13:26.870 --> 00:13:46.729 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: Because of this, you know, I that that kind of came later. What happened is when I I started talking to people and realized so many people were out there that there was no answers. There was nothing on it. I started interviewing people for the book, and my book is phone people's, stories, firsthand stories.

00:13:46.930 --> 00:13:51.910 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: you know, and also famous people stories when you realize how it shaped their lives.

00:13:52.070 --> 00:14:09.249 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: And it was just that's how it started. And then I, you know, was just looking up replacement, child, and I saw Judy's book, and I was so excited to like, oh, my God! Is there somebody else out there that I can talk to? That actually has been doing research, not just looking for me.

00:14:09.310 --> 00:14:20.299 Judy Mandel: you know, to tell them about my research so, and and really I I can thank Albert and Barbara Kane, who did the original research, I think, when 1,964

00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:30.920 Judy Mandel: with holocaust survivors and their and you know generations who identified this, you know, replacement, child syndrome which I had never heard of.

00:14:30.930 --> 00:14:43.730 Judy Mandel: and once I started reading what their work was, I realized there was so many things I had in common. And then I realized, you know what this was all about, and and I think that was the key for me

00:14:43.780 --> 00:14:47.070 Frank R. Harrison: all right. We're about to take our first break.

00:14:47.150 --> 00:15:06.399 Frank R. Harrison: and when we return we want to follow up on some of those closing stories before we introduce our next special guest, Dr. Jennifer Griggs. So please stay tuned as we're here with the replacement, child Forum, and we're going to discuss forgiveness right here on talk radio and Nyc. And on our Youtube Channel talking alternative. Stay tuned.

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00:17:19.050 --> 00:17:38.189 Frank R. Harrison: welcome back. And right here we've just been spending the first 15 min of the show, recapping where we left off with the replacement, child Forum. But now is the time we pivot to where we were going to be last time, and that's the discussion of forgiveness. Phyllis. I'm giving you over the floor to introduce our special guests.

00:17:38.380 --> 00:17:56.729 Phyllis Quinlan: Well, it's it's my honor Frank. to be honest with you, this is Dr. Jennifer Greg, and Jennifer has has an accomplished career as a physician. Both clinically and academically in the field of oncology, and about 3 years ago she layered on coaching.

00:17:56.740 --> 00:18:13.930 Phyllis Quinlan: As to one of the services she could offer her clients, her patience, and of course, the world. I just want to read briefly here what Jennifer says on her linkedin page. She serves people who want to heal from the past her through forgiveness of themselves and others, and who want to reclaim their dignity.

00:18:13.940 --> 00:18:29.949 Phyllis Quinlan: She is known for her compassion, humour, and ability to use metaphors to transform the way people think about themselves and their lives to claim the life of joy, hope, and freedom. And I am sure that that desire is shared by all of us.

00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:46.130 Phyllis Quinlan: so welcome, Jennifer. it's a it's a pleasure to have you here. Jennifer describes yourself as a forgiveness and dignity. Coach. So first thing i'd like to just ask you, Jen, is you know, how would you define forgiveness? And

00:18:46.140 --> 00:18:50.550 how would it apply to this special situation that we're discussing tonight.

00:18:51.210 --> 00:18:57.469 Jennifer J Griggs: Well, thank you so much for having me in this wonderful group of people. It underscores how important community is.

00:18:57.690 --> 00:18:59.649 Jennifer J Griggs: So i'm really honored to be here

00:18:59.800 --> 00:19:08.990 Jennifer J Griggs: Sometimes it's easiest to describe forgiveness by what forgiveness is not. And I find in my work that people really misunderstand what forgiveness is.

00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:25.000 Jennifer J Griggs: They think it means if you forgive, you, forget what happened. And actually you don't want to forget it's who what happened made you who you are, and also that's how we keep from ending up in the same situations or replicating the harm that was done to us.

00:19:25.010 --> 00:19:31.040 Jennifer J Griggs: People also think that forgiveness means what we're saying is that what somebody did is okay.

00:19:31.080 --> 00:19:38.229 Jennifer J Griggs: And that's not the case. The the harm happened. It was wrong. It might be continuing harm. It is wrong.

00:19:38.260 --> 00:19:40.740 Jennifer J Griggs: So we don't mean that it's okay.

00:19:41.250 --> 00:19:45.450 Jennifer J Griggs: What we mean is that we're giving up all hope of a better past.

00:19:46.660 --> 00:19:51.850 Phyllis Quinlan: Hmm. Hmm. We're giving all hope of a better past.

00:19:51.910 --> 00:20:10.320 Jennifer J Griggs: So it really is letting, putting down everything and moving forward in a far more positive way. Is that what i'm hearing Jennifer

00:20:10.330 --> 00:20:17.890 Jennifer J Griggs: a harm, or perceived harm right, we don't have to actually have been harmed if if something was perceived.

00:20:17.950 --> 00:20:22.330 Jennifer J Griggs: If we didn't understand what happened, there's also that's the event

00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:32.499 Jennifer J Griggs: a harm or perceived harm, and then a whole host of emotions are are set up. I call these hot emotions like anger and shame.

00:20:32.740 --> 00:20:46.340 Jennifer J Griggs: although grief is a very important part of a grievance, though the words are related. Some people view grief as a cooler emotion. But basically we have an emotional response to what happened.

00:20:46.350 --> 00:20:53.129 Jennifer J Griggs: and then unforgiveness happens when we ruminate when we relive, and we have intrusive re-experiencing.

00:20:53.380 --> 00:21:10.659 Jennifer J Griggs: and then it sets up in our body as an emotion we feel on forgiveness in our bodies. Forgiveness is an emotional shift where we no longer replay these intrusive things, whether it's something we did or something that was done to us.

00:21:10.670 --> 00:21:19.699 Jennifer J Griggs: and it's not meant to be glib, but giving up all hope of a better past, allows us to have hope for a better future.

00:21:19.770 --> 00:21:33.079 Phyllis Quinlan: That is just probably one of the more touching ways I've ever heard that describe. Thank you. Help me understand how dignity plays into that. You You know you. You describe yourself as a forgiveness and dignity. Coach.

00:21:33.380 --> 00:21:47.459 Jennifer J Griggs: Yeah. So so dignity, unlike respect is something that we're born with. We don't have to earn it. Hustle for it. It's our inherent value and worth.

00:21:47.670 --> 00:21:57.899 Jennifer J Griggs: It relates a lot to identity in this area of what we're talking about. It is just when we're born. We have the same amount of dignity as anybody else.

00:21:58.020 --> 00:21:59.000 Jennifer J Griggs: and

00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:10.210 Jennifer J Griggs: the interesting thing is as essential as it is. You would think that it was robust and strong, but dignity is characterized by its vulnerability to injury.

00:22:10.810 --> 00:22:28.800 Jennifer J Griggs: There are 10 elements of dignity in the work that Donna Hicks has done. She's at Harvard, and she's done work across cultures and throughout multiple different countries, and identify 10 essential elements that I'll go through with the bent of looking at replacement children.

00:22:28.810 --> 00:22:31.569 Jennifer J Griggs: The first is acceptance of identity.

00:22:31.630 --> 00:22:35.160 Jennifer J Griggs: So we're accepted for exactly who we are.

00:22:35.610 --> 00:22:42.079 Jennifer J Griggs: You can see how that really blends with the replacement. Child

00:22:42.100 --> 00:22:51.210 Jennifer J Griggs: condition of who am I, and not being accepted for exactly who we are, but being a stand-in for somebody else.

00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:59.920 Jennifer J Griggs: The next is inclusion, being included and in reading Judy's story. Judy was excluded

00:22:59.950 --> 00:23:04.380 Jennifer J Griggs: from this life that happened before, and there was a lot of secret keeping.

00:23:04.420 --> 00:23:18.689 Jennifer J Griggs: and my sense is because of the trauma to the family, and the profound bereavement that the child is meant to replace, that there is a lot of exclusion of the child who is the replacement child.

00:23:18.940 --> 00:23:21.399 Jennifer J Griggs: The third element is safety.

00:23:21.740 --> 00:23:27.079 Jennifer J Griggs: physical safety, and psychological safety, that we can be our authentic selves.

00:23:27.130 --> 00:23:29.939 Jennifer J Griggs: If you think about dignity at work.

00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:41.180 Jennifer J Griggs: you know, being unsafe psychologically, whether it's teasing or bullying or harassment. The same things can play out in families, of course, so

00:23:41.260 --> 00:23:44.379 Jennifer J Griggs: identity, inclusion, safety.

00:23:44.460 --> 00:23:46.020 Jennifer J Griggs: understanding.

00:23:47.050 --> 00:23:59.659 Jennifer J Griggs: acknowledgment, and recognition are the next 3 components being understood for who you are being recognized for your contributions, and even when you fail for your striving

00:23:59.760 --> 00:24:18.490 Jennifer J Griggs: that that not being perfect sense that so many people who are replacement children who identify as replacement children might have that they're trying so hard, and they're not being recognized for their striving. Judy's father said when she asked him. I okay, he said, 60, 40,

00:24:18.760 --> 00:24:20.750 Jennifer J Griggs: and that's

00:24:20.780 --> 00:24:29.290 Jennifer J Griggs: if you think about not being recognized for your striving and not being acknowledged for your contributions and not being understood.

00:24:29.650 --> 00:24:37.429 Jennifer J Griggs: Think about telling your story, and people just say, oh, well, they were doing the best they could. We all need to be understood for our pain and our suffering.

00:24:37.850 --> 00:24:47.819 Jennifer J Griggs: The other elements are being given the benefit of the doubt. And if we think about times when we're asked to give somebody the benefit of the done. We don't really want to.

00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:53.120 Jennifer J Griggs: you know it's hard to see that people deserve that. But we need that so badly.

00:24:53.260 --> 00:25:00.409 Jennifer J Griggs: and there are other elements like fairness that we all abide by in our health to the same agreed upon rules.

00:25:00.500 --> 00:25:20.480 Jennifer J Griggs: And i'm thinking about replacement children, and how unfair it is to be evaluated according to a different metric that the child who is lost is often deified. You know they they can do no wrong. It's not really fair, because they're being held to a different standard than we are

00:25:20.490 --> 00:25:31.560 Jennifer J Griggs: ere

00:25:31.610 --> 00:25:34.509 Jennifer J Griggs: this we can name. Not only are we?

00:25:34.580 --> 00:25:39.609 Jennifer J Griggs: And I repeat, i'm not a replacement, child. Both my parents are interestingly enough.

00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:41.000 Jennifer J Griggs: But really

00:25:41.040 --> 00:25:42.330 Jennifer J Griggs: yeah. Oh.

00:25:42.370 --> 00:25:47.679 Phyllis Quinlan: yes, yeah. But, Jennifer, I I have to share with you. I mean that was

00:25:48.730 --> 00:26:07.759 just a breathtaking moment your explanation of not just forgiveness so eloquently, but in the steps of dignity. And in this, you know, in the in the pieces that are involved in all of that. That's I. I'm. I'm just really, you know, taken by the eloquence in which you explain that.

00:26:08.870 --> 00:26:16.260 Phyllis Quinlan: So we have 3 people here who have shared life experiences by virtue of, you know, identifying as a replacement child.

00:26:16.330 --> 00:26:22.910 Phyllis Quinlan: what what could be some of the steps that they or anyone could take towards forgiveness. Where would they begin?

00:26:24.540 --> 00:26:40.330 Jennifer J Griggs: The most important thing, I think, is to understand what forgiveness is not because, if you're embarking upon a journey, you want to know where you're going. We don't have to forget what happened to us. We don't have to say what they did was, okay. We don't have to stop seeking justice.

00:26:40.340 --> 00:26:44.929 Jennifer J Griggs: etc., and it's really important to know what it is we're talking about.

00:26:45.130 --> 00:27:03.869 Jennifer J Griggs: Once people understand what forgiveness is. They're more willing to do the work, and it is work. It's not easy, I say. Forgiveness is more like a sunrise than it is like a light switch. So if we know what it is, it's easier to do the work and embark upon it.

00:27:04.110 --> 00:27:12.519 Jennifer J Griggs: The the next step after that is to tell your story. All the experts on forgiveness. Every single book you'll read about. It

00:27:12.560 --> 00:27:19.989 Jennifer J Griggs: starts with telling your story, and a lot of the people I work with, Say, but I've told my story a 1,000 times, and it doesn't help.

00:27:20.470 --> 00:27:26.190 Jennifer J Griggs: and it's telling your story in a different way. First of all telling it to the right people

00:27:26.260 --> 00:27:31.079 Jennifer J Griggs: who can listen and not step in and give advice and explain away what happened?

00:27:31.180 --> 00:27:33.060 Jennifer J Griggs: Who can go there with you.

00:27:33.470 --> 00:27:42.799 Jennifer J Griggs: but also to tell it more objectively. So many people I know who've been hurt, and for me my own trauma that I experienced at work. I hadn't written it down

00:27:42.980 --> 00:27:51.119 Jennifer J Griggs: once we write it down, and we write down kind of sort of just the facts, not loaded up with all those hot emotions and with grief.

00:27:51.170 --> 00:28:10.570 Jennifer J Griggs: But write it down. It helps do what's called collapse. The story. It helps collapse the story and take away some of the heat of it. It's still important it's still happened. It's so important that we tell our story to the right people with a little less heat. The next thing is to name

00:28:10.600 --> 00:28:11.660 Jennifer J Griggs: the hurt.

00:28:11.820 --> 00:28:20.239 Jennifer J Griggs: What actually, what elements of dignity were violated Once you have that vocabulary, as everybody here knows it's so helpful.

00:28:20.290 --> 00:28:33.719 Jennifer J Griggs: and the next is to name those feelings, not just the feelings that come to mind so easily, not just anger or rage or grief, but go a little deeper, usually to shame. That's the third rail of our emotional lives.

00:28:33.930 --> 00:28:50.069 Jennifer J Griggs: The next is to grow and foster empathy for ourselves and the people who hurt us. That's a hard step. It's not required. But forgiveness, intervention seem to stick more when we can soften the hurt and soften how we feel towards the other.

00:28:50.130 --> 00:28:56.919 Jennifer J Griggs: and the last step is really to put it all together and make a commitment to live a life towards the future.

00:28:56.970 --> 00:28:59.170 Jennifer J Griggs: to look towards the future.

00:28:59.820 --> 00:29:09.220 Phyllis Quinlan: You know, when I was I'm. A I'm. A practitioner of Eastern philosophy, and I happen to be Buddhist, and have done a lot of studying around Eastern philosophy. And

00:29:09.290 --> 00:29:15.900 Phyllis Quinlan: one of the the the the mantra of Buddhism is find the middle way.

00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:24.649 Jennifer J Griggs: Yes, and when you were just talking right now, what I was thinking is one of the teachings that we have around. Anger

00:29:24.890 --> 00:29:31.639 or forgiveness is try to get to neutral You don't have to get past neutral.

00:29:32.120 --> 00:29:36.889 but just getting to neutral allows you to release and let go

00:29:36.910 --> 00:29:38.240 of so much

00:29:38.750 --> 00:29:42.199 that you could now spring off of that

00:29:42.300 --> 00:29:51.129 Phyllis Quinlan: for yourself. It's no longer about the other person, but it's now all about you, which is finally where the focus should be.

00:29:52.260 --> 00:30:01.139 Frank R. Harrison: Yeah, that all being said, we have to go on neutral for the next 2 min, because we're about to enter our second break. But I definitely have a few questions that have.

00:30:01.150 --> 00:30:22.400 Frank R. Harrison: Jennifer. I echo what Phyllis just said. You were very eloquent and very you. You were Mr. Role to me. So thank you very much for what you just shared when we return. We're going to follow up on that discussion and compare it with the 3 members of the replacement child Forum that are here today. So please stay. Tuned as we are here talking about forgiveness.

00:30:22.410 --> 00:30:28.059 Frank R. Harrison: both on talk radio, Nyc: and in our Youtube Channel talking alternative. Stay tuned.

00:30:29.540 --> 00:30:33.050 Are you passionate about the conversation around racism?

00:30:33.060 --> 00:30:56.420 Hi! I'm Reverend Dr. Tlc host of the dismantled racism show which airs every Thursday at 11 am. Eastern on top Radio dot Nyc join me and my amazing guest as we discuss ways to uncover, dismantle and eradicate racism. That's Thursday. At 11 o'clock they am on top radio, Dot: Nyc.

00:31:00.090 --> 00:31:26.990 Yeah, folks come and, boy, you may have many unanswered questions regarding your health. Are you looking to live a healthier lifestyle? Do you have a desire to learn more about mental health, and enhance your quality of life. Or do you just want to participate in self-understanding and awareness? I'm. Frank R. Harrison host of Frank about health, and each Thursday I will tackle these questions and work to enlighten you. Tune in every 3 at 5 P. M. On talk, radio and Nyc. And I will be frank about help to advocate for all of us.

00:31:32.180 --> 00:31:56.079 Hey, everybody! It's Tommy Dean and nonprofit Sector connector coming at you from my adding each week here on talk radio that Nyc: I hosted program. Philanthropist nonprofits impact us each and every day, and it's my focus to help them amplify their message and tell their story. Listen: Each week at 10 am. Eastern Standard time until 11 am. Is from standard time. Right here on talk radio.

00:31:57.370 --> 00:32:06.629 You're listening to talk radio and Yc: at Ww: talk radio dot and live scenes now broadcasting 24 h a day.

00:32:06.980 --> 00:32:07.700 Okay.

00:32:21.210 --> 00:32:24.380 You

00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:44.790 Frank R. Harrison: welcome back. Well, Jennifer, I have to say just listening to those whole steps in the process of forgiveness, was giving me a sense of enlightenment in terms of just anyone in general that is looking to forgive a trauma that has been done to them.

00:32:44.800 --> 00:32:52.209 Frank R. Harrison: and one takeaway that I had. And please clarify for me if I I need to be directed in the right place.

00:32:52.300 --> 00:33:02.090 Frank R. Harrison: Is that those steps of reflection on your dignity are like milestones on the road to forgiveness. Am I correct?

00:33:03.210 --> 00:33:19.410 Jennifer J Griggs: Yes, and to be really precise about it, when we can name the elements of dignity. They have been violated it. It's less chaotic, and it's a more organized way of making sense of our story, and why it hurts so much.

00:33:19.540 --> 00:33:37.249 Jennifer J Griggs: So you once you develop dignity, consciousness, you'll see it everywhere. You'll hear it on news stories. You'll see it in your family. You'll see it among friends. You'll see it at work. So just developing an understanding of what those elements are can help you see when you violate them yourself.

00:33:37.260 --> 00:33:52.459 Jennifer J Griggs: or when they're violated. So I do feel it to answer your question that it's a really important step, and it's completely transformed the way I view forgiveness. If an element of dignity Hasn't been violated.

00:33:52.740 --> 00:33:55.199 Jennifer J Griggs: and you want to forgive yourself.

00:33:55.230 --> 00:34:04.689 Jennifer J Griggs: That's a whole different discussion about core values right? If we want to forgive ourselves for something. It's usually because we've violated something that's so important to us.

00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:06.450 Jennifer J Griggs: We'll die for it.

00:34:06.510 --> 00:34:10.789 Jennifer J Griggs: so you know, to speak somewhat dramatically, and we violated that

00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:15.759 Jennifer J Griggs: a lot of people who want to forgive themselves, which we haven't talked about much yet

00:34:16.060 --> 00:34:19.730 Jennifer J Griggs: are, have fallen prey to a temptation.

00:34:19.780 --> 00:34:27.489 Jennifer J Griggs: When our dignity is violated. We can lash out. We can stay in an unsafe situation. We can avoid conflict.

00:34:27.620 --> 00:34:37.609 Jennifer J Griggs: Those are ways in which we violate our own dignity. Usually in response to our dignity being violated, so it's not the same as violating a court value.

00:34:38.270 --> 00:34:48.149 Frank R. Harrison: So I gather those people who don't understand forgiveness. Don't even understand how they've been violated, or don't understand where their dignity has been violated.

00:34:48.739 --> 00:34:53.449 Jennifer J Griggs: Yes, they just feel it in their body. They know something was wrong.

00:34:53.540 --> 00:34:56.619 Jennifer J Griggs: but they can't get peace out.

00:34:56.760 --> 00:35:00.879 Jennifer J Griggs: What's happening a lot of times when we want to forgive it's not just one thing

00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:08.800 Jennifer J Griggs: right. It's especially if we're talking about children for giving family members. There are multiple things that happened.

00:35:09.030 --> 00:35:24.879 Jennifer J Griggs: and one way that we break that apart is almost like beads on a string. Let's break out. One event that happened, what element of dignity and work through it again? It's it's more like a switch. You know. It's not like a switch. It's more like a sunrise. So

00:35:25.090 --> 00:35:30.939 Jennifer J Griggs: it does take work, and different things that happen violated different elements of dignity.

00:35:31.500 --> 00:35:35.970 Frank R. Harrison: but amazing working with my coaching clients around grief and bereavement.

00:35:36.100 --> 00:35:39.600 you know one of the things that I try to share with them.

00:35:39.640 --> 00:35:44.369 Phyllis Quinlan: that the process of navigating through grief and bereavement

00:35:44.550 --> 00:36:03.400 Phyllis Quinlan: is not linear so. You know, people you know, can Google the steps of death and dying as outlined by Kubleros, which has now been applied to the process of navigating grief and bereavement. So you know it starts with denial, and it moves on to anger, and you know, and and

00:36:03.450 --> 00:36:12.500 Phyllis Quinlan: I've had so many of my coaching clients say to me, I thought I was doing so much better. And then, on the anniversary of something i'm back to square one.

00:36:12.520 --> 00:36:22.839 Jennifer J Griggs: Is that a similar experience with forgiveness.

00:36:22.870 --> 00:36:39.669 Jennifer J Griggs: remembering, or flare up as a sign that you failed You're you're welcome to Earth School right? I mean it's you're going to be reminded the scent of the air that time of year, the way the light hits the wall, somebody you see the goal is to

00:36:39.700 --> 00:36:53.829 Jennifer J Griggs: to sort of deflate and collapse that heat. But you're having flare ups is totally normal, and in fact, we sort of want those, because there's signals that something important has happened.

00:36:53.860 --> 00:37:00.419 Jennifer J Griggs: Right? So do we want to? I mean grief is a sign of love, right? It's grief is

00:37:00.740 --> 00:37:03.399 Jennifer J Griggs: we don't grieve somebody we didn't love.

00:37:03.580 --> 00:37:07.599 Jennifer J Griggs: so we don't want to completely forget

00:37:07.720 --> 00:37:13.919 Jennifer J Griggs: at those anniversaries the the goal is to collapse the pain a little bit.

00:37:14.680 --> 00:37:24.370 Frank R. Harrison: you know. One takeaway that I've gotten from this discussion is that I can now understand why you, Judy, you, Sarah, and you, Rita, as well as Christina, when she was last here.

00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:37.610 Frank R. Harrison: have basically gone through whole decades of research and gathering and support, because, as a child, when you're still learning about, if you were the replacement, child.

00:37:37.730 --> 00:37:55.199 Frank R. Harrison: you don't have an understanding of what dignities if any were violated. So you're not even grasping a sense of violation. You're just grasping the way you're being, whether it's isolated or challenged or put in a in a in a replacement situation. So

00:37:55.380 --> 00:37:57.630 Frank R. Harrison: what you've talked about in the last

00:37:57.640 --> 00:38:16.029 Frank R. Harrison: Mit. Ctl. And 40 or so minutes. Jennifer is very interesting because it's almost like a secret that the 3 of you, as part of the replacement child Forum can now introduce into your forum, if if it already isn't in place, you know. So I was going to say what really resonated with me 250.

00:38:16.040 --> 00:38:20.030 Judy Mandel: Jennifer. What you were talking about is the the steps that you said.

00:38:20.060 --> 00:38:42.550 Judy Mandel: and apparently I unwittingly went through all of those steps without without knowing that you know that was it in telling your story, and you know, being dispassionate about it and getting the facts, which is what I was, you know, concentrating on through especially writing replacement. Child was collecting those facts for whatever reason, and I wasn't sure why.

00:38:42.810 --> 00:38:46.850 Judy Mandel: and I wasn't sure that it was my story, either.

00:38:46.960 --> 00:39:05.239 Judy Mandel: So all of those things, and the understanding that comes from that that can lead you to forgiveness. I think that was very poignant the way you put that I I also got that. You said you feel it in your body, and I feel like before. It was even a conscious thought of what is this?

00:39:05.250 --> 00:39:13.389 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: I felt something wasn't right that I was different in some way that my home was different in some way that I was being treated differently

00:39:13.420 --> 00:39:18.599 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: by my mother. Then other mothers treated their kids. There was just something off.

00:39:18.740 --> 00:39:28.409 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: and I couldn't pinpoint it until I really had a name until something happened that gave me the little light that then I could do the research.

00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:36.650 Sarah Vollmann: Yeah, and to speak to what you said also. what's interesting about this, too, is, I think, in most families

00:39:36.710 --> 00:39:52.250 Sarah Vollmann: parents to have a child after loss, have no idea that that child born after loss might be impacted by the loss in some way. It's a kind of a miss that you know something that happened before your birth. Well, it has nothing to do with you. It won't impact you in any way, so

00:39:52.260 --> 00:40:05.460 Sarah Vollmann: mit ctl, and nobody in the family really identifies or understands what's going on. So there's so much happening that no one is naming or understanding. Sarah. I was a psychologist. You have an article. Now that's been published 150,

00:40:05.470 --> 00:40:18.550 Phyllis Quinlan: and you know, just out of curiosity in in Was there a cathartic moment during the writing of that article. Did you feel as though you inched your way close to forgiveness as you wrote the article, or at least started the process

00:40:19.070 --> 00:40:20.560 Sarah Vollmann: for me myself?

00:40:20.810 --> 00:40:35.979 Sarah Vollmann: Well, it's really interesting. I was so interested and kind of excited to talk about forgiveness tonight. And Jennifer, I just want to say how much. Also I I really appreciated your definition of forgiveness and thinking about it as kind of a radical acceptance.

00:40:36.020 --> 00:40:41.379 Sarah Vollmann: because the first thing that I thought about when I thought about forgiveness in terms of our topic.

00:40:41.420 --> 00:40:47.049 Sarah Vollmann: That one thing that's really complicated for people in our role is that

00:40:47.070 --> 00:40:49.330 Sarah Vollmann: it's really hard to

00:40:49.410 --> 00:40:57.000 Sarah Vollmann: resent or be angry, or even acknowledge that there is something to be forgiven when you're talking about a grieving parent.

00:40:57.240 --> 00:41:16.089 Sarah Vollmann: because everyone is very protective of the grieving and parent, including us, and we feel terrible for our parents, and we feel terrible for our siblings. We feel terrible for our families, for what they've gone through. So for us to even get to a point of acknowledging that maybe we need to forgive our parent for something in the way that they treated us

00:41:16.100 --> 00:41:17.800 Sarah Vollmann: is very complicated.

00:41:18.270 --> 00:41:24.239 Judy Mandel: and it I really I agree with that.

00:41:25.010 --> 00:41:42.580 Frank R. Harrison: It kind of goes in line also with the with the quote you, said Jennifer, about that forgiveness is forgiving. a. a a past that will never be, or I use a different word for it. But I know that in the process of moving forward.

00:41:42.590 --> 00:41:54.820 Frank R. Harrison: Probably what gets a lot of people to focus and ruminate about the past is they're afraid to look forward because they think that the future is going to be even darker than the past. Is that a correct assessment?

00:41:55.100 --> 00:41:57.229 Jennifer J Griggs: Yes, if people lose hope.

00:41:57.280 --> 00:41:59.569 Jennifer J Griggs: you know they lose hope for the future.

00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:00.790 Jennifer J Griggs: I think.

00:42:01.040 --> 00:42:08.810 Jennifer J Griggs: Yes, I just answer that simply. Yes, You know, Jennifer, you were saying like you have to look at your story in a different way and take it apart.

00:42:08.830 --> 00:42:20.020 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: I remember reading something that said, Tell your story like a hero's journey. Thank you some story as a hero's journey. I thought that was so profound that if you could turn it around and reframe it.

00:42:20.290 --> 00:42:21.050 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: you get

00:42:21.160 --> 00:42:23.520 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: different elements for yourself.

00:42:23.740 --> 00:42:28.859 Jennifer J Griggs: That's what happens with forgiveness. You move from being the victim in your story

00:42:28.920 --> 00:42:33.490 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: to the hero.

00:42:33.820 --> 00:42:49.979 Sarah Vollmann: There's some theory out there that I think you guys would love to hear about Ted Reneerson, who wrote a book called restorative retelling, and it's about the process of when we tell it, it's really focused on traumatic loss. But it's about the fact that when we tell and retell a story that the story can change every time we.

00:42:49.990 --> 00:42:57.130 Sarah Vollmann: and that we ourselves can change in the telling of the story, which I think is exactly what you're kind of talking about, Jennifer.

00:42:57.820 --> 00:43:05.360 Frank R. Harrison: Yeah. And and Judy, come to think of it, the book, White Flag. The story on addiction posts the writing of replacement. Child.

00:43:05.530 --> 00:43:20.849 Frank R. Harrison: you play the part of a hero in there for your niece. So i'm wondering, were you even conscious about the possibility that what motivated to you to write the book. Besides, a further exploration of your life as a replacement child.

00:43:20.860 --> 00:43:27.600 Judy Mandel: was your way of making yourself into a hero from your experience with. Would that be?

00:43:28.010 --> 00:43:37.920 Judy Mandel: It's a I think, a a little different than that. Only because I think what happened was I've always been the solver, and the one that's going to make things better.

00:43:37.980 --> 00:43:42.840 Judy Mandel: And that was my role as that replacement child. And still my role with my niece.

00:43:42.950 --> 00:43:45.349 Judy Mandel: So it kind of just fed right through

00:43:45.730 --> 00:44:07.490 Sarah Vollmann: in that way, and that's such a common role for people who are born after loss. That we're we're. We were born to try to kind of fix a family, and we become fixers. I'm: a therapist, you know. We we it's just yeah, yeah, my the reason psychology I always call it the fixer in the family.

00:44:07.500 --> 00:44:25.220 Frank R. Harrison: All right. Well, that all being said, we're definitely going to go to our next break our final break, and then, when we come back, we're going to be talking about the future as we go on the road to establishing better ways of forgiveness for all of our issues, whether they're in the replacement, child category, or others.

00:44:25.230 --> 00:44:40.020 Frank R. Harrison: But this has been a very enlightening show for me, just being an observer, and at the same time learning about the whole psychology of forgiveness, so that all being said, please stay tuned. As we return to this in my regard, special episode of Frank about health.

00:44:40.030 --> 00:44:45.500 Frank R. Harrison: right here on talk radio, Nyc: and on our talking alternative, Youtube Channel

00:44:45.560 --> 00:44:46.589 Frank R. Harrison: stay tuned.

00:44:48.810 --> 00:44:53.809 Everybody is Tommy D. The nonprofit sector connected coming at you from my attic

00:44:53.820 --> 00:45:12.620 each week here on talk radio that Nyc: I hosted program. I have a focus. Nonprofits impact us each and every day, and it's my focus to help them amplify their message and tell their story. Listen: each week at 10 am. Eastern standard time until 11 am. In some standard time right here on talk radio, Dot: Nyc.

00:45:14.660 --> 00:45:28.859 Yeah, you may have many unanswered questions regarding your health. Are you looking to live a healthier lifestyle? Do you have a desire to learn more about mental health, and enhance your quality of life, or do you just want to participate in self understanding and awareness?

00:45:28.870 --> 00:45:41.589 I'm. Frank R. Harrison, host of Frank about health, and each Thursday I will tackle these questions and work to enlighten you tune in every day. 5 Pm. On talk radio. Dot, Nyc. And I will be frank about help to advocate for all of us.

00:45:45.050 --> 00:45:54.810 Are you a conscious co-creator? Are you on a quest to raise your vibration and your consciousness. I'm. Sam Liebo, your conscious consultant.

00:45:54.820 --> 00:46:15.320 and on my show the conscious consultant hour awakening humanity, we will touch upon all these topics and more. Listen. Live at our new time on Thursdays at 12 noon, Eastern time. That's the conscious consultant hour awakening humanity. Thursday's 12 noon on talk radio. Nyc.

00:46:19.690 --> 00:46:29.580 You're listening to talk radio. Nyc: at Ww: talk, radio and Yc: now broadcasting 24 h a day.

00:46:49.390 --> 00:46:54.090 Frank R. Harrison: Welcome back. And so here we have been for the last 45 min

00:46:54.120 --> 00:46:56.130 Frank R. Harrison: looking at this whole

00:46:56.590 --> 00:47:15.149 Frank R. Harrison: construct and style of forgiveness which I am completely amazed at. And I I thank you, Jennifer for appearing on this this show with the replacement, child forum members. I guess I i'd like to know. Do either of you feel that Jennifer offers

00:47:15.160 --> 00:47:32.999 Judy Mandel: mit ctl, and something that you guys have yet to introduce within your forum? Or is there something of added value that you were able to learn today that could help other members of your organization Absolutely, absolutely. I I love the the clarity that you present this with in the 150,

00:47:33.010 --> 00:47:39.390 Judy Mandel: especially those those steps, and absolutely it can definitely help

00:47:39.430 --> 00:47:40.649 our community.

00:47:40.770 --> 00:47:43.200 Judy Mandel: because that this is a big part of it.

00:47:43.250 --> 00:47:50.829 Judy Mandel: I mean everybody has it, you know varied situations and things that they in their families that have happened to them.

00:47:52.190 --> 00:47:55.429 Judy Mandel: And and I think forgiveness is is something they need

00:47:55.830 --> 00:47:57.129 Judy Mandel: to move forward.

00:47:57.420 --> 00:47:59.939 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: and this can help me in your story.

00:48:00.040 --> 00:48:00.899 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: 2:

00:48:01.200 --> 00:48:01.890 Yeah.

00:48:02.050 --> 00:48:07.100 Frank R. Harrison: yes, yes. I so, Jennifer, when you were.

00:48:07.230 --> 00:48:11.880 Frank R. Harrison: I guess, researching the understanding of forgiveness, especially in the area with dignity.

00:48:12.090 --> 00:48:23.330 Frank R. Harrison: Was there a specific audience that you were focused on people suffering from a form of trauma or people suffering from other kind of mental health related challenges.

00:48:23.890 --> 00:48:34.449 Jennifer J Griggs: I would say forgiveness is a stretch for a lot of us, in part, because we don't understand it, you know, like Phyllis said, it's something for us. A lot of people say they don't deserve it.

00:48:34.530 --> 00:48:53.780 Jennifer J Griggs: You know the people who hurt me Don't deserve it, which I would imagine is less the case with families and people who are replacement children because there is almost an abundance of empathy. But people really, I think all of us could benefit from understanding forgiveness.

00:48:54.550 --> 00:49:00.459 Frank R. Harrison: Yes, yes, so it like you're seeing me forgiveness first with ourselves first. Okay.

00:49:00.570 --> 00:49:19.629 Sarah Vollmann: i'm sorry. Go ahead. Sorry I was just gonna say, Jennifer, I thought your definition of forgiveness was actually very empowering, because, instead of being entangled with the relationships of the people who hurt us, it's something that we can do kind of for ourselves if we're trying to have some acceptance about our past.

00:49:19.640 --> 00:49:31.280 Sarah Vollmann: And so I think that could be a really good model actually for people in our position, because, like I mentioned before, I think it's really complicated to even acknowledge that maybe people in our family did something wrong when we have this terrible loss.

00:49:31.290 --> 00:49:40.750 Sarah Vollmann: But if we can just look in our own selves and say, you know, can I have more acceptance about what my childhood was, and wasn't I think that might be something that people can access more readily.

00:49:41.450 --> 00:49:46.380 Frank R. Harrison: Well, I think that's what it is, I think, when you understand where somebody is coming from.

00:49:46.570 --> 00:49:54.470 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: Then you can forgive much easier if you really walk in their shoes and see where they've been and what's hurt them, and how they're reacting.

00:49:54.490 --> 00:49:58.090 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: you can understand. And then then you can forgive.

00:49:59.330 --> 00:50:15.049 Judy Mandel: If I had heard Jennifer talk, you know, years ago, it wouldn't have taken me all these years to figure this out. You wouldn't have taken, You know the the 4 years of writing the book, and you know everything else that went with that.

00:50:15.130 --> 00:50:24.549 Phyllis Quinlan: you know. It looks like we've accomplished quite a bit here tonight, Frank. you know, you know, 4 people in the room who really needed to meet one another.

00:50:24.580 --> 00:50:32.009 Frank R. Harrison: Absolutely. Yes, oh, absolutely. And and i'm hoping that that each of you can communicate even beyond this show to

00:50:32.020 --> 00:51:00.830 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: I I don't know, Jennifer, if maybe you can actually speak with the rich child. there is not one day we love that exactly. Yes, we need to join I found something. This is just sort of accidental on Facebook about forgiveness, and I just it's good. I just read it. It's very short. It's a Buddhist forgiveness. It says, if I have harmed anyone in any way, either knowingly or on knowingly, through my own confusions, I ask for forgiveness.

00:51:00.990 --> 00:51:12.410 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: If anyone has harmed me in any way, either knowingly or unknowingly, through their own confusions. I forgive them, and if there is a situation i'm not yet ready to forgive. I forgive myself for that.

00:51:12.430 --> 00:51:26.239 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: for all the ways that I harm myself, negate, doubt, belittle myself, judge, or be unkind to myself through my own confusion. I forgive myself. I just thought that was beautiful, and it just happened to pop up like 20 min before I came on here.

00:51:26.470 --> 00:51:37.459 Phyllis Quinlan: There are no coincidences, Rita. No, there's none. I believe it's a hitting you in the face. If people want to reach out to you, Jennifer, I know that you're on Linkedin.

00:51:37.550 --> 00:51:46.819 Phyllis Quinlan: Okay, and I'm sure people can, you know. Just put Jennifer Jay Griggs into Linkedin and come and find you. How else can they find you?

00:51:46.990 --> 00:51:50.410 Jennifer J Griggs: my website is Jennifer

00:51:50.490 --> 00:52:06.059 Jennifer J Griggs: and I am holding. I hold I hold forgiveness, groups and self Forgiveness groups regularly. They're small. They're trauma informed, and all sharing is done just between 2 people. So there's almost instant safety.

00:52:06.080 --> 00:52:14.729 Jennifer J Griggs: And with welcome anybody who's interested. I'm. Also on Instagram, Dr. Jennifer Greg's coaching. If people want to follow me there.

00:52:15.170 --> 00:52:31.919 Judy Mandel: Okay, and and each of you, as members of the replacement child Forum. what books do you have to promote as well as what are you working on that has yet to be released? Starting with you? Well, my my book is replacement, child, my first book and my second book.

00:52:31.940 --> 00:52:33.869 Judy Mandel: My second book is White Flag.

00:52:34.190 --> 00:52:39.129 Judy Mandel: and right now i'm not working at anything. I'm resting

00:52:39.170 --> 00:52:49.479 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: okay, and and and you Rita My book is replacement, children. The unconscious script and my co-OP. There is Dr. Abigail Brenner.

00:52:49.580 --> 00:53:02.690 Rita Battat, Co-Founder RCF: and we're making it into an audio book, and it will be on audio in February hopefully the end of February. Oh, that's right. White Flag is coming out an audio book as well. The white flag is wonderful. You won't be able to put it down.

00:53:02.790 --> 00:53:06.080 Frank R. Harrison: Yes, now I I think I still have my.

00:53:06.150 --> 00:53:16.719 Frank R. Harrison: I still have my questions from each chapter. When and when we had done that show together, and you and you, Sarah, you're working. You've been mentioned with Phyllis that you're working on a a paper that is going to be released soon.

00:53:17.040 --> 00:53:38.410 Sarah Vollmann: Well, I have a clinical article. I don't know if it would be of interest to everyone, but for those who want to read more clinical articles. that was published in the Omega Journal of Death and dying about replacement children. It's actually on the replacement, child Forum website. So if anybody wants to look at it, you can easily access it there, and I'm also currently co-authoring a book with Joanne o'leary

00:53:38.420 --> 00:53:50.049 Sarah Vollmann: on this topic that's going to be a book for the lay person. It's not ready yet, but I will keep you posted, please, you know. keep an eye out for it, and i'm also on linkedin. If anyone wants to connect with me there, happy to connect

00:53:50.560 --> 00:53:59.699 Frank R. Harrison: All right, and both you, Judy and Rita, all, all of your books and audio books are on at this time, or on the website as well. They're on both.

00:54:00.110 --> 00:54:16.989 Frank R. Harrison: Okay, good, all right. And you know, basically here this has been an interesting 7 years since Frank about health launched right here on talking alternative broadcasting, which is now known today as talk radio and Nyc. But

00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:33.049 Frank R. Harrison: it is also the culmination of 70 episodes that we were able to put together with this one being the seventieth. So I want to thank you all for that milestone and euthanas for being here for about 40 of them, maybe 50 of them. I have to. I have to check back in the catalog.

00:54:33.060 --> 00:54:40.580 Frank R. Harrison: but I know that there are going to be some changes coming up in the next 12 weeks. When I come up with my next season. Starting next

00:54:40.610 --> 00:54:59.049 Frank R. Harrison: Thursday, we're going to be talking about epilepsy and narcissism combination of the 2, and my guess will be Danielle Swanson, who started the show with me 7 years ago, and back in May of 2,021, as well as Jeff to Meetrak, and we're probably going to be

00:54:59.060 --> 00:55:16.530 Frank R. Harrison: launching an event, probably in the next coming months from that show more to stay tuned for those listening right here on talk radio and Nyc. And you, Phyllis, I understand that you might be taking a brief hiatus for a while, but I know that we will be together again, doing

00:55:16.540 --> 00:55:34.270 Frank R. Harrison: mit ctl and more oriented shows towards a future life a future healthier life in 2,023, and I already mentioned to you about one in particular that i'm working on so I look forward to telling you the progress on that as it develops. But is there anything else you would like to share about what you might be working on? 150

00:55:34.620 --> 00:55:54.189 Phyllis Quinlan: on the side. Well, first of all, let me just say I am going to take a breakite brief hiatus from the from the program. But, Frank, thank you for the opportunity of letting me be your co-host. I know I came on as a test, and we hit it off so quickly, and the the idea of going from

00:55:54.200 --> 00:56:03.359 Phyllis Quinlan: you know what I felt as a very valued guess to being invited to be the co-host and meeting all the interesting people we've interviewed together. It's just been an honor.

00:56:03.480 --> 00:56:20.879 Phyllis Quinlan: I am working on the second edition of my book, bringing shadow behavior into the light of day understanding and effectively managing bullying and incivility in the workplace. So that's why i'm taking my hiatus to do some work on that. Because it's got to meet a publishing date.

00:56:21.050 --> 00:56:36.960 Phyllis Quinlan: but again it's it's been an honor, and, ladies, I just really want to say how much I've enjoyed this evening, and Jennifer. You did not disappoint, you know. I I just love bringing my coaching colleagues on me.

00:56:36.970 --> 00:56:41.909 It's such a fabulous specialty that people need to access more and more.

00:56:42.420 --> 00:57:00.789 Frank R. Harrison: Yes, absolutely. And so, ladies and gentlemen, we're 1 min before we have to sign off. But I want to thank you all for following Frank about health on talk radio and Nyc. On our Youtube Channel. Also for those Facebook live members. We will be returning to Facebook at a at a date to be announced.

00:57:00.800 --> 00:57:14.939 Frank R. Harrison: and on my website, Frank R. Harrison, I've always had the mission to first start. Talk about epilepsy, then bring about the light of Covid when we were all under quarantine, and then, thanks to Phyllis, we were able to branch out into caregiving and

00:57:14.950 --> 00:57:25.520 Frank R. Harrison: and forgiveness, as well as other mental health issues. And let's not forget Judy with both addiction as well as the whole replacement. Child concept.

00:57:25.530 --> 00:57:42.290 Frank R. Harrison: I definitely am going to be reformatting the show there will be a new location right now. I'm at. We work at the Brooklyn Navy Yard, but Probably i'm scheduling March. I will be starting to air from Hilton various Hilton's throughout New York City

00:57:42.300 --> 00:57:48.010 Frank R. Harrison: to be determined, but at the same time as per the guest that i'm going to be featuring that evening.

00:57:48.020 --> 00:58:08.450 Frank R. Harrison: But stay tuned to Frank about health next week, and for the next 12 weeks after simultaneously stay tuned to tomorrow's slate of shows here on talk radio and Nyc. Starting with philanthropy and focus with Tommy D. Ending with always Friday with Steve Fry. And then we start the whole thing over again next week right here. On talking alternative, broadcasting.

00:58:08.460 --> 00:58:14.660 Frank R. Harrison: All right, Thank you again. stay tuned for the next show on the network, and we're signing off and

00:58:14.800 --> 00:58:18.170 Frank R. Harrison: thank you all again, all of you, for being here on the

00:58:18.220 --> 00:58:25.259 Frank R. Harrison: Thank you. So you all to and thank you, Dylan, for producing the show.

00:58:25.350 --> 00:58:28.579 Frank R. Harrison: Bye, bye.

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