Dismantle Racism with Rev. Dr. TLC

Thursday, November 3, 2022
Facebook Live Video from 2022/11/03 - All That Jazz

Facebook Live Video from 2022/11/03 - All That Jazz


2022/11/03 - All That Jazz

[NEW EPISODE] All That Jazz


The audience will learn tools to expand their awareness about racism in their own disciplines/areas of interests and how to honor the contributions of all in the telling of our history.


Jazz originated in the African American community of New Orleans. The world has been blessed by notable artists such as Eubie Blake, Ethel Waters, Duke Ellington, Billie Holiday, Al Jolson, Benny Goodman and many more. Jazz has been a source of healing, joy, and even controversy. While it highlights the richness of the Black community, it also reveals an oppressive and racist history.

Join Rev. Dr. TLC and her guest Lindsay Guarino, editor of the book "Rooted Jazz Dance" as they discuss how one white woman's journey into jazz parallels her journey into dismantling racism. Ms. Guarino will share how, as a scholar and educator, she pushes back against oppressive systems, especially those that have led to the exploitation, appropriation and erasure of Black American art and culture.

Tune in for this important conversation at

Show Notes

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4


00:00:33.990 --> 00:00:51.139 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hello, and welcome to the dismantle Racism show where our goal is to uncover, dismantle and eradicate racism. We really want to create a world where racial equity is the norm. I am your host, the Reverend Dr. Tlc.

00:00:51.150 --> 00:01:01.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I want to start us out today as always, by inviting us just to take a moment to send for ourselves and to find our breath. So if you would

00:01:02.140 --> 00:01:05.639 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: invite you to close your eyes if you're able to,

00:01:06.740 --> 00:01:08.989 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and just to connect

00:01:09.080 --> 00:01:10.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: with your breath,

00:01:13.340 --> 00:01:15.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: just to connect with

00:01:15.930 --> 00:01:20.829 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: your divine wisdom and your sacred source,

00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:29.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathing in and out, taking a moment just to pause and to be present,

00:01:30.110 --> 00:01:32.189 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and the here and the now

00:01:34.360 --> 00:01:36.789 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to be present with your feelings,

00:01:37.140 --> 00:01:42.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: your expectations for the conversation that you're about to hear,

00:01:44.990 --> 00:01:46.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: connect

00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:48.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: with your courage

00:01:48.720 --> 00:01:50.309 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: in your power,

00:01:52.330 --> 00:01:56.619 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: connect with your ability to change the status quo,

00:01:57.760 --> 00:01:59.789 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Understanding that

00:02:00.520 --> 00:02:02.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you are love,

00:02:02.710 --> 00:02:04.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and you are loved,

00:02:06.190 --> 00:02:09.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and love is one of the key components to healing.

00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:13.749 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You are a person of compassion

00:02:14.640 --> 00:02:16.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and understanding.

00:02:18.130 --> 00:02:20.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So breathe in

00:02:20.650 --> 00:02:22.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and out,

00:02:24.290 --> 00:02:26.409 connecting with who you are,

00:02:27.540 --> 00:02:29.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and your interconnectedness

00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:32.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: with everyone else.

00:02:35.180 --> 00:02:37.209 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Take a deep breath in

00:02:38.100 --> 00:02:39.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and out,

00:02:40.830 --> 00:02:43.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: claiming your ability to

00:02:43.420 --> 00:02:45.530 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: change the status quo

00:02:48.260 --> 00:02:52.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and recognize that what you do matters

00:02:53.030 --> 00:02:55.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: what you say matters

00:02:57.180 --> 00:02:59.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: what you think matters

00:03:03.830 --> 00:03:06.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: take a deep breath in

00:03:06.440 --> 00:03:08.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and out.

00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:13.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Recognizing that the power of one

00:03:14.260 --> 00:03:17.319 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: contributes to the power of community,

00:03:21.480 --> 00:03:23.809 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I'll take another deep breath in

00:03:25.130 --> 00:03:26.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: side out,

00:03:30.110 --> 00:03:31.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: unless again

00:03:34.640 --> 00:03:53.379 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: today, on our show we are going to be talking about jazz, among other things. But jazz originated in the African American community in New Orleans, and the world has been blessed by many, many jazz artists

00:03:53.490 --> 00:03:54.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: over time,

00:03:55.550 --> 00:03:59.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and jazz itself has transformed over time

00:04:02.370 --> 00:04:12.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: one of the things that's really important when we think about jazz as well as other uh musical forms. And art in itself

00:04:12.390 --> 00:04:27.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is that historically, those things that were started by African Americans were somehow co-opted and appropriated by whites. Sometimes we were completely erased from the picture,

00:04:29.220 --> 00:04:37.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and yes, of course, there were great artists who who came a great white artist who uh came out of jazz,

00:04:37.900 --> 00:04:40.239 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and it's nothing wrong

00:04:40.420 --> 00:04:49.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: with other cultures. Appreciating jazz, the problem becomes when folks begin to claim it as their own

00:04:50.510 --> 00:04:55.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: in the African American community. We have seen this, whether it be music

00:04:55.810 --> 00:05:06.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: or something like braids for those of you who are my age. You might remember when Bo Derek started wearing corn rolls,

00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:09.619 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and then people said that it was so fabulous,

00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:15.910 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: so wonderful, and those of us in the black community said, we've been wearing corn rose forever,

00:05:16.710 --> 00:05:20.219 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: or we can even look at body types,

00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:35.139 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and we can take a look at the ways in which there are, and I won't call the names. You will know who they are, that all of a sudden, when white women started to find that they had a bit more curves, or rather

00:05:35.280 --> 00:05:39.619 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: got injected with more curves. Then it became

00:05:40.050 --> 00:05:41.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the end thing.

00:05:42.880 --> 00:05:59.859 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It's really important if we are going to engage in healing of our racial wounds that we began to recognize culturally who we are as individuals, and then give honor and homage

00:05:59.960 --> 00:06:02.079 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to that which we love,

00:06:03.010 --> 00:06:22.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and the ways in which we give honor are the ways that lead to healing. It does not mean that we can't appreciate it. It does not mean that late people can't enjoy jazz. It doesn't mean that we can't have an Al Jolson or Benny Goodman. But what it does mean

00:06:22.340 --> 00:06:25.429 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is given credit where credit is due.

00:06:26.210 --> 00:06:35.679 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So today on our show. We are going to be talking about all that jazz which, of course, and all that jazz the movie,

00:06:36.150 --> 00:06:52.979 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: who was the star of all that jazz. It certainly was not like people in that. It was very interesting movie. Go, watch it for yourself. But we are talking about all that jazz, because today's guess, Lindsay,

00:06:52.990 --> 00:07:06.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: for a Reno. I hope i'm not butchering your name, Lindsey, who is the editor of the book, Rooted Jazz Dance. She is an artist, an educator, and a scholar.

00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:22.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: She's a dissociate professor, and the Chair of Music Theater and dance at Salv Regina University. She's facilitated the dramatic growth of the dance program, including its new major focused in jazz, studies

00:07:22.960 --> 00:07:34.359 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: her historical and embodied research. I love that her embodied research interrogates the impacts of white supremacy on Jazz,

00:07:34.880 --> 00:07:37.159 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: or rather it's history,

00:07:37.430 --> 00:07:57.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and she's looking at uh it through an anti-racist lens and she investigates the intersectionality of the jazz pedagogy and after an aphronistic uh aesthetics, American history and identity and culture. And I could go on and on and on.

00:07:57.110 --> 00:08:14.629 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But today I want to hear from Lindsey, who really says that her understanding of jazz really parallels the work that she is doing and dismantling racism, and the reason why I think is so important to have Lindsay to discuss

00:08:14.640 --> 00:08:18.390 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: her point of view about this is because one of my goals

00:08:18.650 --> 00:08:41.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: as a facilitator, one of my goals uh on this show. When I talk about eradicating racism. People often think that when we want to dismantle structures it means that we have to be out in the street. Rah, rah, Rah! You know, saying no justice, no piece, or we have to be rewriting the laws and all that. Yes, that needs to be done.

00:08:41.580 --> 00:08:46.869 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But I want us to understand, no matter what your position is in life,

00:08:47.330 --> 00:08:53.989 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: all you have to do is simply look around and see where racism is perpetuated,

00:08:54.090 --> 00:09:10.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and then you begin to chip away at it one step at a time. Lindsey could have decided that she was gonna take jazz and enjoy jazz, and that's the end of it, but she decided to go deeper. So i'm delighted today.

00:09:10.470 --> 00:09:16.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So welcome Lindsay or Marino to this show. Welcome, welcome, welcome, Lindsay.

00:09:16.770 --> 00:09:24.350 Lindsay Guarino: Thank you, Carolyn. I appreciate such a warm welcome, and also the centering in the meditation. I feel like

00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:37.330 Lindsay Guarino: the things that you're saying. Just about grounding yourself and listening and being open is often um a as with how some people perceive conversations about race,

00:09:37.340 --> 00:10:05.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: which uh a lot of people lead with it being divisive, and that's not my experience or my perspective. So i'm just grateful that that's how we under this space. Uh thank you for that, Lindsey, because I actually think that that's really uh an important thing, especially for me as a healer, because I first came into. I think, teaching this because I've been doing this now for over twenty years, and I think I really,

00:10:05.160 --> 00:10:11.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: even though I taught about, uh, how to dismantle racism and how to have the conversations.

00:10:11.090 --> 00:10:29.599 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I think that there was a place as an instructor, because there was so much that people needed to learn people of color and and white people, and even today folks come to me because they want to learn, because for white people in particular will say, Well, I don't know what I don't know. I just need to teach me everything

00:10:29.610 --> 00:10:32.129 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: for me. It's about the healing process.

00:10:32.850 --> 00:10:40.449 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How do we engage in this work in a way in which we can honor who people of color are

00:10:40.460 --> 00:10:56.249 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: but also create the space for everyone to feel safe and grounded in this work because it stirs up emotions when we talk about this right, you know. And and so I just want to share with people, you know. When I met you, Lindsey,

00:10:56.800 --> 00:11:05.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I met you in a place where you were talking about. You know a St. This story in general around um

00:11:05.250 --> 00:11:20.619 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: jazz, and it was so interesting to me because you went to a place where you were just talking in general, and I was into your conversation about how you got started in jazz, which we'll talk about in a little bit,

00:11:20.630 --> 00:11:30.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and then you, all of a sudden just just changed it. It was seamless where you changed it to talk about white supremacy,

00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:38.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and for me I was blown away by that because it was so seamless, and it was in a context where no one was expecting it

00:11:39.370 --> 00:11:49.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: right, because because when I looked around the room I think I was probably one of three people of color maybe present in that room, maybe four. I'm not sure. And

00:11:49.710 --> 00:11:52.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we were just there to hear stories,

00:11:53.750 --> 00:11:59.479 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and I want to just say how grateful to me, as a person of color

00:11:59.610 --> 00:12:12.009 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that you were emboldened enough to really talk about white supremacy and um, And also you could show people how easy

00:12:12.170 --> 00:12:21.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: it really is to talk about it, to to to incorporate it. It's not easy to do the work, but it's easy to incorporate it.

00:12:21.820 --> 00:12:39.909 Lindsay Guarino: Thank you just for perceiving that in that way, because entering that um particular storytelling space, I was invited to share my story, and without any parameters. On what kind of story I was going to tell. My story is very much

00:12:39.920 --> 00:13:08.980 Lindsay Guarino: in connection to Jazz, which is central to my existence in so many different areas of my life from my personal friendships that ecosystem that i'm a part of, but also my research, my role as an educator as a program director. Um, but that absolutely parallels who I am, the white person and all those biases that I've had to undo and work through. And um. What I now realize is my role in dismantling

00:13:09.160 --> 00:13:28.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: white supremacy and racism that we all are a part of, and we don't necessarily see in name. So we're gonna have to take a a break. But when we come back I want to know how you got started in jazz. And what was it that says, Well, I want to do jazz as opposed to

00:13:28.770 --> 00:13:35.309 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you know any other dance form. I want to talk about that a little bit, and then really talk about

00:13:35.370 --> 00:13:41.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the the I opening because a lot of people say jazz, and they still

00:13:41.820 --> 00:14:01.449 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: don't think about. Well, what's the root? So I want to know. Was there one thing in particular that said, Hey, wait a minute. I need to take a look at this, but we'll have to have our audience to hold on. We'll be right back to this to to continue our discussion. This is the dismantle racism show. I'm your house. The Reverend Dr. Tlc.

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00:16:16.140 --> 00:16:33.939 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We're back with my guest today, Lindsey Gore, Reno, and Lindsey before the break. I was um curious about how you got so interested in jazz as opposed to any other dance art form. What fascinating you!

00:16:34.150 --> 00:17:02.589 Lindsay Guarino: So I took jazz growing up equal to ballet and modern and tap, and pretty much anything that was offered at my home studio. I wanted to learn it all, and I was interested in it all. But the through line in my life just became that I knew I had to keep Jazz centered it wasn't until I was going to college at eighteen, that it was a very conscious decision. I knew that I was going to pick a college program that had jazz,

00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:22.420 Lindsay Guarino: and that wasn't necessarily the case in most college programs, because the Academy took dance and centered it around valley and modern forms. For many of the reasons i'm sure we'll get into um just because of our our euro American values the way that we value certain dance forms that are connected to European origins.

00:17:22.430 --> 00:17:32.999 Lindsay Guarino: Uh, but I think that maybe what what pulled me into jazz was, I always felt like I had a space to be myself in the Forum. I think I had a lot of

00:17:33.010 --> 00:17:42.800 Lindsay Guarino: emotions. I I was always that dancer that couldn't turn off my my face and my connection to the movement,

00:17:42.810 --> 00:17:57.529 Lindsay Guarino: and I I I felt like other forms, maybe, encouraged me to hold that back, and I felt like in jazz. I could just experience all the emotion, and there was joy present, and the connection to the music,

00:17:57.540 --> 00:18:08.729 Lindsay Guarino: like the music, was driving the dance just always felt like a motivator for me, and something that I I I knew was important to my own identity as a dancer.

00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:17.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know what's amazing listening to you. Talk about this, And I think about this so often when we talk about what are the ways in um

00:18:17.310 --> 00:18:22.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: which racism cost us right. So you just saying that

00:18:22.350 --> 00:18:33.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: in terms of how jazz can be very expressive, and a lot of times in our your centric culture, we're taught to contain those emotions when, in fact,

00:18:33.890 --> 00:18:49.839 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you you're you're white, and you want to be able to express that. And I imagine that there are lots of white people who do. But yet somehow we grow up in this society. You you have to be, you know, crimin proper, and I think about that Often

00:18:49.880 --> 00:19:06.099 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: when I see these videos of these uh, and usually it's little white kids who are in a choir. And there's just this one little kid who's just outside of the box, who is just having fun, and I look at that, and I look at it, and i'll have joy

00:19:06.110 --> 00:19:15.179 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: at seeing how expressive they are, and they don't have just a t of sadness, because i'll say someone will strip that from her

00:19:15.190 --> 00:19:43.000 Lindsay Guarino: uh so true, because those are just societal constructs that we're adhering to, and we often don't even realize we're doing it. And so important that's why i'm so interested in rooting any understanding of dance in its cultural context. So we understand why Jazz was born of out of a necessity to express, and why it was so important to not

00:19:43.010 --> 00:20:11.430 Lindsay Guarino: mo of oneself into that Euro-american identity which was removing the cultural values. I mean, just if you think of the value of a posture of a ballet dancer which is living away from the earth. That is the opposite of Africanist values, cultural values and religions, too. So those deep structures, the way that they show up in a dance form. I think it's important to name them, and then see why the emotional piece is connected

00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:28.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to the cultural piece. I I love that. I love that. Because you know that's why for me just thinking about dance just in general and feeling it like when you were talking about it. So i'm. I'm definitely not a professional dancer. But when you were talking about it, and and just

00:20:28.970 --> 00:20:43.229 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: feeling the movements and the emotions, That's why I love African dance like with the drumming, because I'm i'm listening to the sound of the drums, and i'm feeling it, and you actually get caught up in it before you know you. You're responding

00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:59.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to the music rather than it being just so formed. Now. Yes, people practice the troops practice, and they choreograph, and they do all that. But at some point you know it's free flowing. So tell me a little bit about

00:20:59.990 --> 00:21:19.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: what you what you've learned about the foundation of jazz like you know the it's it's formation. I said. It was rooted from New Orleans, and you just talked a little bit about how it came to be. But What else can you tell us historically about jazz and its foundation? And

00:21:20.990 --> 00:21:37.069 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the the other part of that is, i'd like to hear when you first became awakened to wait a minute. I need to study this a little bit more for myself from a racial perspective.

00:21:37.580 --> 00:21:44.249 Lindsay Guarino: So I like, I said it went on to pursue a bfa degree in in dance, and it was

00:21:44.260 --> 00:21:57.819 Lindsay Guarino: in a program that had equal emphasis on Valley modern jazz. I took the same approach to finding a grad program, and uh went to the only grad program I could find that had jazz studies as part of that curriculum,

00:21:57.830 --> 00:22:05.030 Lindsay Guarino: and it wasn't until I was editing my first textbook, titled Jazz Dan's, A History of the Roots and Branches,

00:22:05.040 --> 00:22:25.809 Lindsay Guarino: the I came into Conversations around race and Racism, because we I was co-editing the book with another white editor. We knew enough at that time to make sure that our our group of authors that there was representation that we had black authors speaking to their black experience.

00:22:25.820 --> 00:22:55.479 Lindsay Guarino: Um, But at that time I felt very comfortable, being a white editor in that position, because I felt like I knew jazz I studied as I degrees in it. I you know it had been my whole entire life experience, and I would also name that I grew up at a a studio of all white dancers, and I only had one uh black professor all through college and grad school, and so that lived. Experience was missing from the conversations I was having around the world,

00:22:55.940 --> 00:23:12.170 Lindsay Guarino: and when I was editing that first book, all of a sudden we were in conversation with the other authors of the book, and I realized that there were racial tensions and issues of ownership that I didn't necessarily have

00:23:12.180 --> 00:23:30.040 Lindsay Guarino: this skills to negotiate in that space. We aren't socialized to talk about race. That was not part of my my education whatsoever, and as much as I think that I probably had some white fragility in those moments where you know it was

00:23:30.050 --> 00:23:37.820 Lindsay Guarino: me questioning, but I I did this my whole life, and I know I know jazz. I also,

00:23:38.010 --> 00:23:53.090 Lindsay Guarino: looking back, took it as an opportunity to quiet myself and listen more, and and also do this deep work of looking at my own embody practice. I realized that I was upholding ballet,

00:23:53.100 --> 00:24:07.619 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So I I I want to just. I want to just to stop you just for a second, because you just said something that was really really powerful, and that is that you took a step back from your white fragility and decided to listen

00:24:08.300 --> 00:24:12.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and in body. So what do you think

00:24:13.760 --> 00:24:27.289 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you know? Encourage you? How are you different from other people who who stay stuck in their white fragility? You know, because I want. I want our audience to hear what you are saying about taking a step back. So what

00:24:27.300 --> 00:24:40.979 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: what gave you the off to say? I can't stay stuck in my wife agility because I wrote this book. I I know Js: I've done this. You could have stayed there because I've heard many people do it. So

00:24:40.990 --> 00:24:54.509 Lindsay Guarino: I hear people often kind of back off now, especially around the scholarship that um is in our new textbook, where people throw their hands up and say, maybe I shouldn't be a part of this conversation. Maybe I shouldn't do jazz, and you are as a white person.

00:24:54.700 --> 00:25:06.170 Lindsay Guarino: Um, I I would like to have a really clear sign of this is how I I I knew instinctually to do that. I don't know. I I think, that I was.

00:25:06.420 --> 00:25:24.959 Lindsay Guarino: I had a sense of empathy and curiosity. I think that Empathy was related to. I was working with people that I had such great respect for, and I wanted to listen to them, and many of them are elders in my field that I just want to learn from,

00:25:24.970 --> 00:25:37.810 Lindsay Guarino: and I always kind of been a a student of lifelong learner at heart. I've always just been curious about all the things I don't know, and so I felt in that way.

00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:46.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Um! I could learn more. So what's it for you when you and the other editor decided to do this book.

00:25:46.580 --> 00:25:48.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Was it really,

00:25:48.910 --> 00:25:49.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you know,

00:25:50.720 --> 00:26:08.259 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: since you didn't think about that. It's too white people doing this book. Was it more just that, You know the academic rigor because we can get caught up in that, too, and we have to publish. We have to do this. So was it more of like? Wow! I I know, Jazz, let me do it. So it came from a place of um,

00:26:09.020 --> 00:26:28.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: really not knowing what you don't know one right, because we don't there. We don't know when we've crossed that boundary. But was that your your motivation? And and that's why it didn't occur to you to say, Hey, wait! I know all these other black jazz um researchers who could also co-edit with me.

00:26:29.130 --> 00:26:45.690 Lindsay Guarino: It's so much bigger than even that, because the racism has shifted the jazz dance form so far away from its roots that I didn't even know I was participating in something that was a reflection of black American culture. The

00:26:45.740 --> 00:26:48.640 Lindsay Guarino: master narrative is, I was taught. It

00:26:48.650 --> 00:27:16.239 Lindsay Guarino: was this group of five white men at the center of it all. You name the film all that jazz Bob Bossy. He's always centered in the conversation. In addition to another group of white men. They were called the fathers, the innovators, and the pioneers. They didn't start making jazz until the S. And beyond, and because of that the codified styles that I was trained in were all connected to these white men.

00:27:16.250 --> 00:27:17.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Hmm.

00:27:17.170 --> 00:27:33.170 Lindsay Guarino: There was an acknowledgment that jazz is centered or is rooted in West African dance. But the fact that jazz is a reflection of the black American experience that was absent from my training That was not context. I was given,

00:27:33.180 --> 00:27:49.790 Lindsay Guarino: and so everyone has been freely participating in this form without discussing race period. And so this is just, you know, a reflection of how systemic racism is not just in this form, but in our country as a whole,

00:27:49.800 --> 00:28:13.169 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: which is so interesting to me, Lindsey, because it's almost like we have two different worlds in which we grow up in, because for me, jazz has always been rooted in the Ubi Blakes, you know, uh of the world. Uh, uh, or thinking about dizzy Gillespie and people like that. Of course that's Big Ban, but you know it from that to me

00:28:13.510 --> 00:28:34.579 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is jazz, and I. It also makes a difference where we get our training. Because I went to a historically black college, so of course they're highlighting this and hearing you talk about this, it's like, Wow, man, it's just two different worlds that we absolutely grow up in. However, there are plenty of people of color

00:28:34.590 --> 00:28:48.149 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: who don't know these things as well. And how sad is it that it's been co-opted in that way, and that you grew up hearing about this so thank you for sharing that we have to actually take a quick uh break. But when we come back

00:28:48.330 --> 00:29:02.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i'd love to, uh continue the the discussion if you want to talk more about that, but I have a ton of other questions I want to ask you as well. We will be right back. This is the dismantled racism show. I'm your host to remember. Dr. Tlc.

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00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:42.860 You

00:31:03.470 --> 00:31:32.689 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We're back with my guess, Lindsay for Reno, and we've been talking about Jess and its foundation. And what what got Lindsey started in that? So, Lindsey, before the break we were talking about how deeply rooted racism is in just in the structure of our society, and the co-opting of Jess. So it must been quite a shock for you when you really started to realize, like, Wait a minute. We've been taught about these five essential

00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:37.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: people in jazz, and they, and there was no credit to um

00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.609 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: people of color. So tell me a little bit about that uncovering for you.

00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:55.560 Lindsay Guarino: I think the shock for me was realizing there were parts of the jazz language that I couldn't tap into or identify clearly until I did the work on myself,

00:31:55.690 --> 00:32:20.590 Lindsay Guarino: and I just started listening more. I started um, listening to a lot of anti racism, podcasts and reading books, and doing that work simultaneously. To also, like I said, this historical context surrounding jazz dance itself. But as I listen to all of the anti racism into racism, scholarship, and also just the conversations

00:32:20.600 --> 00:32:37.180 Lindsay Guarino: I drew so many parallels to jazz, and I realized that it is one in the same, and the more that I listened over there the more I understood. Jazz: Yeah. So do you think that in your listening,

00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:43.469 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: when you decided to collect this group of people to contribute to your bull.

00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:46.779 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Do you feel that

00:32:47.630 --> 00:33:00.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: there was some healing that took place? They that they were able to really uh, hear you when you were able to hear them in the final product of the book.

00:33:01.520 --> 00:33:16.250 Lindsay Guarino: I think the healing really took place with this book that was just published earlier this year. It was a different. The first book reflects jazz, the democratic, universal uh

00:33:16.510 --> 00:33:32.680 Lindsay Guarino: properties of jazz that just make everyone feel like a sense of belonging like they can be in jazz, and if you know it, you can show up whether it's your instrument or in class, and you can be a part of community, right? And so

00:33:32.810 --> 00:33:43.180 Lindsay Guarino: I felt like in the first book we were honoring that space. This book that was published earlier this year. We were editing the book Um. During Covid

00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:58.650 Lindsay Guarino: there was the death of George Floyd Brianna Taylor, this social and political upheaval, and I was Uh deep in conversation within my jazz community, and also one of my co-editors, Carlos Jones,

00:33:58.660 --> 00:34:08.799 Lindsay Guarino: who is a black artist and scholar, and uh, being just really deep in that space, that we all had in that space of deep reflection

00:34:08.810 --> 00:34:29.159 Lindsay Guarino: and conversation, but also knowing my role in responsibility in that moment, if I was not going to dig my heels in and say, This is what I need to say in this moment. Then, I was doing what white people can do, which is, we can always opt out.

00:34:29.170 --> 00:34:57.019 Lindsay Guarino: I um also. This is this was not something that suddenly George Floyd was murdered, and we responded to. The conversations had been happening for a decade. It was just how to move them forward, and how to uh, for example, I had hosted a conference in twenty, nineteen, and there was a lot of discord between um it just around conversations about race,

00:34:57.030 --> 00:35:14.870 Lindsay Guarino: and I left that conference, and I said to my colleagues: Someone needs to write about whiteness in our book, because that's the gap. So one and I thought i'm not a social scientist. I right? I'm not. I'm not publishing in that field,

00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:28.710 Lindsay Guarino: and my colleague looked at me and said what you just said, said someone, and I knew that I needed to step up, and and I also had a lot of work to do to to do that responsibly.

00:35:28.990 --> 00:35:39.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yeah, You know what, Lindsey, what I appreciate about you. And this conversation is this: We find ourselves at the table

00:35:39.750 --> 00:36:01.149 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: talking about race, especially prior to two thousand and twenty, and as a person of color, you know, i'm just imagining what it was like in that conference for that tension to be there, and for me as a person of color. If I were there, feeling like they don't get it. They still don't understand. And then there's the white fragility on the other side. Right?

00:36:01.160 --> 00:36:02.529 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But then

00:36:03.080 --> 00:36:13.669 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I call it the awakening happens in twenty twenty, and that happens, and then people start to look at themselves a little bit differently, and go Wait!

00:36:13.710 --> 00:36:14.830 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Was I?

00:36:14.840 --> 00:36:44.310 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Was I doing that? And I think that this is the importance of people listening. I'm glad that we are able to listen now. Uh, it's a shame that George Floyd had to be sacrificed, and and every every other person of color right because There were plenty of other people being killed before that, but there was something about the heinousness of George Floyd's murder that really called all of us to say, Wait a minute. We have to do something differently.

00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:48.349 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so, while there had been that conversation with you all, for

00:36:48.490 --> 00:36:50.299 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you know a decade,

00:36:50.490 --> 00:37:09.189 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you know the the the drive to do something is now. And so I really appreciate you stepping up to the plate and being that someone right because someone has to do the work. It is difficult work to do.

00:37:09.200 --> 00:37:11.640 Lindsay Guarino: It's difficult, and I

00:37:12.190 --> 00:37:19.140 Lindsay Guarino: feel like I try to always position my own humility at the center of it because it's.

00:37:19.570 --> 00:37:35.589 Lindsay Guarino: How do I begin to unpack this language that i'm participating in? And I I always name that i'm a guest in the form? But When I look at this history, when I look at the roots of the form,

00:37:35.600 --> 00:37:47.150 Lindsay Guarino: I I just often feel like i'm not worthy to be a part of this this is out of an experience that is is not mine. So um

00:37:47.270 --> 00:37:58.749 Lindsay Guarino: keeping that respect and acknowledgment, but also humility at the forefront is is really important, and into your back last point I also felt like I was kind of

00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:27.310 Lindsay Guarino: uh. I found myself almost being kind of in this position of a conduit where I was hearing. My black colleagues have that that experience, especially at that conference, and after. And then I was hearing the chatter on the other side where people were saying, Maybe I shouldn't even do jazz anymore. And I knew that somehow, being in this role of I don't mediators not the right word, but I was positioned in the middle, and there's something about just

00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:41.850 Lindsay Guarino: uh peeling back the layers and showing truth from a place where you started where you said, this is just truth in centering ourselves and seeing the world around us.

00:38:42.560 --> 00:38:46.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So let's let's talk about this a little bit. You know this,

00:38:47.020 --> 00:38:53.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you being a guest in this area when you've studied this art form,

00:38:53.690 --> 00:39:03.799 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and you and I had a a conversation, a private conversation about you know, including whether Benny Goodman should have been included in the Promo for this right,

00:39:04.520 --> 00:39:10.759 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and I told you I did that purposefully, and so let's talk a bit about

00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:15.170 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: this idea of appropriation

00:39:15.330 --> 00:39:16.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: versus

00:39:17.370 --> 00:39:25.509 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I'm. I'm honoring the space, and i'm i'm saying, This comes from an you know uh culture.

00:39:27.140 --> 00:39:34.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But then I still have to say i'm a guest in it. So let's talk about that. Because where do we? Where do we get to this place

00:39:35.070 --> 00:39:36.310 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: of

00:39:37.270 --> 00:39:52.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we all can just be, and just appreciate one another's culture, and it's not about appropriation. And maybe you could talk about your idea of what's the difference between appropriation and appreciation. So i'll tell you why i'm um

00:39:53.060 --> 00:39:59.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: kind of talking about this a bit and trying to get to the point that I want to make is that I remember, years ago

00:39:59.780 --> 00:40:08.130 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: this white girl went to prom in this very beautiful African guard,

00:40:08.270 --> 00:40:26.389 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and there were folks up in arms about it who said that she was appropriating the culture, and I disagreed with that. Because I thought, we can appreciate one another's culture without appropriating it. Why does it mean she? It? It was a beautiful dress,

00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:41.949 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and it wasn't like she was saying. Hey, look! This is all. This is a eurocentric dress. This was just something that she absolutely loved so. Where do we get to the place of appreciation versus appropriation, and what your understanding of it?

00:40:42.770 --> 00:40:56.310 Lindsay Guarino: When I think of appropriation, I think of power dynamics, So who has privileged power access? And if there is another culture that doesn't have that same privilege power access

00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:11.539 Lindsay Guarino: Um! How we can, as a dominant culture us from that culture without respect, acknowledgment, attribution. So that's that's the line where I I draw for appropriation. But I also recognize that

00:41:11.550 --> 00:41:23.500 Lindsay Guarino: we live in a multicultural country, and it's nuanced, and there is never going to be a clear line. And uh, I I like to think

00:41:23.620 --> 00:41:26.440 Lindsay Guarino: because i'm an educator. First and foremost.

00:41:26.450 --> 00:41:49.859 Lindsay Guarino: I like to think that if we can look at the truth of the form which in jazz there are certain universal truths that are foundational. Most of them have been erased and replaced in the jazz dance with European values and aesthetics. But if we can move into that space where we're honoring, the Africanist is foundational.

00:41:49.870 --> 00:42:17.710 Lindsay Guarino: Then it's kind of like, I, said the forward Jazz musicians. If they're all speaking the same language, they can show up with their instrument and play together. You know you don't have to have all of these conversations, because there's a mutual respect where you're participating in the same shared experience. Yes, and that's That's the communal experience that comes from our culture. Right? All in community is central to the jazz language.

00:42:17.720 --> 00:42:18.990 Lindsay Guarino: Oh, no!

00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:40.429 Lindsay Guarino: I try to move my students to a place where they're recognizing and experiencing, practicing, embodying those characteristics of jazz. And they're also seeing each other and and community is something that has to be practiced. It doesn't just happen. And so

00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:49.330 Lindsay Guarino: cultivating those spaces feels really important to my practice as an educator, but also to their understanding of jazz.

00:42:49.580 --> 00:43:13.349 Lindsay Guarino: Yeah. So that part say the last part again. Do you think when we function? And when we operate from those spaces we can move beyond that binary appropriation versus um appreciation. I think we just exist.

00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:20.609 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Colleagues feel about that term guest. Is that something that they appreciate you saying? Because I know from

00:43:20.620 --> 00:43:38.369 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: just from a culturally and African American culture. Once we accept you as a part of the family, you're no longer guessed, and so I wonder what the conversation is in those spaces around that whether there's an appreciation for that. And then, secondly, I was thinking about

00:43:38.840 --> 00:44:08.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: the freedom you must experience, because i'm sure your teaching is completely different, and you're dancing is different now that you've come to this. So i'd like to talk about that when we come back. But I feel that um before I take a break I want to just do a teachable moment, because language is so important. So I try not to use language like dominant culture minority. Because if you think about it, just using that language in and of itself, it puts one group over the other group. And so for

00:44:08.820 --> 00:44:17.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: both groups. If I think of you as the dominant culture, it might create some inferiority or vice versa that you know

00:44:17.790 --> 00:44:23.819 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: white people might feel like they are dominant over the other group. So just want to say that um,

00:44:23.830 --> 00:44:38.190 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: especially for my audience. I've set it on here uh before, but I think is really important that we think about that. So we're gonna be right right back uh in just a few minutes with the um remainder of the dismantle. Racism. Show

00:44:41.440 --> 00:45:05.600 everybody it's Tommy D, the nonprofit sector connected coming at you from my adding each week here on talk radio that Nyc: I hosted program forlamic focus. Nonprofits impact us each and every day, and it's my focus to help them amplify their message and tell their story. Listen: Each week at ten Am. Eastern Standard time until eleven. Am. It's from standard time right here on talk radio, Dot: Nyc:

00:45:05.960 --> 00:45:07.359 Um:

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00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:47.089 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are back. And um,

00:46:47.200 --> 00:47:01.699 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Lindsay, I want to give you a chance just to answer the question around uh being a guest, and how your colleagues might feel about that, and as well as if you feel a bit more freedom

00:47:01.710 --> 00:47:08.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: since you've been able to. Just, you know, really explore the history of racism. And

00:47:09.080 --> 00:47:16.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: now you can go into it fully with an open eye and understanding, and really embody

00:47:16.740 --> 00:47:18.839 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: it. As you said before

00:47:19.380 --> 00:47:22.579 Lindsay Guarino: um, i'll start there. I

00:47:22.590 --> 00:47:43.410 Lindsay Guarino: absolutely feel like the jazz language came alive for me in a way that I hadn't understood. Before one site I had a better understanding of those values. I found that the most elusive, transformative, the things that can't really be taught because they have to be experienced, and the past,

00:47:43.420 --> 00:48:12.610 Lindsay Guarino: down or passed across these um ways. That again our African is so. It's not. You watch me dance, and I follow what you do. But again establishing community, establishing this deep sense of listening connection to the music, the feeling like you were describing earlier when you talked about African dance, the feeling of moving from the inside out and trusting that. And so all of those things, once they became

00:48:12.620 --> 00:48:29.489 Lindsay Guarino: uh central from me, I just found that yes, it was completely transformed, and also those values of of what it is to be lifted and poised that is held in its tension. And there's a sense of release

00:48:29.500 --> 00:48:36.060 Lindsay Guarino: in jazz movement that comes from a relapsed body that just feels different. Um,

00:48:36.410 --> 00:48:37.839 Lindsay Guarino: I,

00:48:38.180 --> 00:48:46.509 Lindsay Guarino: my uh black colleagues and collaborators, hear me and my colleagues say often that we're a guest.

00:48:46.830 --> 00:49:08.169 Lindsay Guarino: I don't know that I think that they have accepted that. That's kind of the language that we're using right now, knowing. I I think that there's enough trust and open conversation, that if they were uncomfortable with it they would stop and say, You don't need to say that I also wonder, though, if it's different in jazz dance than in jazz music,

00:49:08.180 --> 00:49:33.280 Lindsay Guarino: capturing, and jazz dance is so much more severe than what happened with the music. Where there is this continuity of the black music continuum, where, if you look at it, jazz, dance, and especially what became uh mainstream on stages and studios. What the way that it was commercialized and commodified.

00:49:33.290 --> 00:49:44.020 Lindsay Guarino: I think that there's just a different um different language that we're using around the dance than around the Thank you for that clarification, because that's actually

00:49:44.260 --> 00:49:46.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: really important,

00:49:47.070 --> 00:50:03.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because I think when I was speaking earlier, I actually was talking about more musicians than I was talking about in terms of dancers, but in terms of the people that I remember culturally um as well. But of course we know that there are plenty of dancers out there as well.

00:50:04.200 --> 00:50:22.229 Lindsay Guarino: Yeah, Yeah. Different conversation. And that's not to say that jazz music, especially when it moved into the Academy, didn't replace a lot of those same values with European systems of um. Well, European structures, from the education to

00:50:22.240 --> 00:50:40.140 Lindsay Guarino: the uh values of studying classical music as foundational to jazz. I mean there's or even just having, more white faculty. Teach jazz where the people, the culture, the community practicing jazz in social spaces was removed from the Academy. All of that is true also,

00:50:40.150 --> 00:50:54.040 Lindsay Guarino: but I think that there is a different um fluidity in that continuum. That's not our experience. So you just made me curious, because you know. And what about, as it relates to tap.

00:50:54.080 --> 00:50:55.969 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Oh, yeah,

00:50:55.980 --> 00:51:18.739 Lindsay Guarino: when we talk about jazz dance, i'm talking about tap. I'm talking about hip hop they are distinct forms on their own, especially now. But it's the same language, same roots, same histories, and the history is move in different directions, but it all comes from the same place.

00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:26.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yeah. Well, there's so much I could go on to to say to you. But one of the things I think that's really important

00:51:26.660 --> 00:51:38.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: for our guests, uh, or our listeners to here is that I i'm very curious. What would you say to people who are afraid to look at

00:51:38.350 --> 00:51:39.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: history,

00:51:40.100 --> 00:51:50.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and or who will say, Well, that was in the past. Can we just move forward? How important is it to you that we understand the history.

00:51:50.860 --> 00:52:10.400 Lindsay Guarino: I don't think we can understand ourselves or our American experience, our culture, our society, the values that we participate in and Don't necessarily see because they're they're under the surface. I don't think we can understand any of those things until we start to

00:52:10.410 --> 00:52:17.899 Lindsay Guarino: learn about history, but also interrogate our own identities. I just. I really do feel like that's critical to

00:52:17.910 --> 00:52:43.039 Lindsay Guarino: existing here in the twenty first century. Um! But I would also add, I experience resistance all the time in my classrooms, not necessarily from my dancers, but in other spaces where i'm teaching, you know, a one course for one semester to students, that from the general university population. There's definitely

00:52:43.050 --> 00:52:51.010 Lindsay Guarino: resistance from students that feel like talking about race or talking about cultures is divisive, And so

00:52:51.690 --> 00:53:06.670 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: it's trying to make space. It it it. It's hard for people who are doing a one and done so. I understand it right. So this is why this work is a continuum that you have to. Uh, just keep at it. What

00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:08.939 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What helps you

00:53:08.980 --> 00:53:14.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: in those difficult moments? Because dismantling racism is a difficult thing to do,

00:53:14.450 --> 00:53:23.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: but it's also a rewarding thing to do, which is why you know I do it because it's rewarding, or one of the reasons why um I do it,

00:53:24.060 --> 00:53:31.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: because I know that it's important to make an impact to heal the world. So I keep going,

00:53:31.340 --> 00:53:42.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and I want to leave the world a better place for my children and others who come behind me. So what is it for you that keeps you

00:53:43.780 --> 00:53:50.719 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: in the game, and that you don't opt out so for those times when your white colleagues are like Lindsay. What are you doing,

00:53:51.790 --> 00:53:56.819 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: or you're getting pushed back from colleagues of color? What keeps you in the game?

00:53:57.450 --> 00:54:15.269 Lindsay Guarino: A few things. One fax are facts. So what i'm teaching and just teaching facts, and I try to remove myself from a lot of that information. So it doesn't come across as my agenda. But it's just me teaching street culture aesthetics.

00:54:15.780 --> 00:54:20.580 Lindsay Guarino: But when it comes to what keeps me going

00:54:20.890 --> 00:54:22.990 Lindsay Guarino: I think that um

00:54:23.270 --> 00:54:53.169 Lindsay Guarino: I think the thing that keeps me going is my own journey, because I can look back and see that I was a different person. Five years ago I was a different person ten years ago, and so sometimes I I understand that someone reacts or respond in a certain way, but it's because they're in a different place in their journey, and maybe I can open up something that they don't understand in that moment. But there is a moment of reflection or a moment that they understand. Five years later, or ten years later, there's I just think that we're We're

00:54:53.180 --> 00:55:08.170 Lindsay Guarino: some progress, and if we don't, say the things, then we're giving people permission to stay comfortable. So i'm not interested in that. But I also recognize that not everyone is ready to receive the information,

00:55:08.350 --> 00:55:21.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and I appreciate you saying that there's a progression, and that you're in a different place. Because we often to get that in the conversation when we're getting frustrated like. Why don't you get this? Because they're in a different place.

00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:36.289 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I really really appreciate our conversation today, Lindsey, I thank you so much for um coming today. Tell people how we can be in touch with you, and how they can get a copy of your latest book or both your books.

00:55:36.300 --> 00:55:44.910 Lindsay Guarino: You can buy the textbook on Amazon, or wherever you buy your books. It is from University Press of Florida. So also through their website.

00:55:44.920 --> 00:56:14.910 Lindsay Guarino: Um, I am on Facebook and Instagram. My email is on the Survey Regina University website. I'm interested in passionate and continuing the conversation. So yes, feel free to reach out. If you go. Follow me on social media, though you're gonna see lots of pictures of my kids. Well, that's all good, too, as well. But, Lizzie, thank you so much for being on the show today. I want to thank our listeners for tuning in, and I want

00:56:14.920 --> 00:56:35.670 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I want to encourage you to do your part to dismantle racism. Stay tuned, please, for the conscious consultant hour with Sam Legalits, where he helps you to walk through life with the greatest of ease and joy may today you tap into that sacred part of you that allows you to make choices that manifest the good in you and those around. You

00:56:35.750 --> 00:56:50.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: know that we are all one and exist because of one another, make it a priority to share love, hope, compassion, and peace. Today be well, be safe, be encouraged until next time. Bye, for now

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