Frank About Health

Thursday, October 20, 2022
Facebook Live Video from 2022/10/20 - Replacement Child with Judy Mandel

Facebook Live Video from 2022/10/20 - Replacement Child with Judy Mandel


2022/10/20 - Replacement Child with Judy Mandel

[NEW EPISODE] Replacement Child with Judy Mandel


The Audience will learn more answers about the personal story of addiction which Judy Mandel's niece Cheryl struggled with after the events of a plane crash in 1952.

Judy will discuss both of her books with emphasis on Replacement Child and her discovery that transgenerational trauma impacted Judy in her life, career, relationships and of course how she felt over the circumstances of being a supporter for her niece Cheryl.

The audience will hear a discussion on both books and understand that while they are separate in context the focus is on Mental Health, Trauma and Brain Chemistry.


Judy L. Mandel is a former reporter and marketing executive. After the death of her parents, she knew that it was time to write the story of her family; their emotional and physical survival of a devastating plane crash that killed an older sister and left a remaining sister critically burned and close to death.

Her Best Selling Memoir REPLACEMENT CHILD uncovers the basis for Judy's journey towards understanding Replacement Child Syndrome and further discusses the generational trauma that has impacted her and her entire family's mental health. This further expands on the issues discussed in last week's episode of Frank About Health and in her new book WHITE FLAG.

Judy will discuss Replacement Child Syndrome and her discovery that transgenerational trauma impacted Judy in her life, career and relationships. This will also serve as a followup to last week's discussion on her other book White Flag. 


instagram: @mandeljudy


Tune in for this healthy conversation at

Show Notes

Segment 1

Segment 2

Segment 3

Segment 4


00:00:33.010 --> 00:01:02.919 Frank R. Harrison: Hey, everybody, and welcome to a new episode of Frank about health. This is part two with Judy Mandel. If you recall for those listeners at one P. M. On talk radio and Nyc. Or for those that saw it on our Youtube Channel last Thursday we had Judy, and with Phyllis and I talking about the book, White Flag, a story about trauma and addiction. And in that interview, or if you recall, we had discussed about the first book that Judy had written about a decade ago.

00:01:03.040 --> 00:01:08.060 Frank R. Harrison: That may have been the impetus of not only the way she felt

00:01:08.070 --> 00:01:25.719 Frank R. Harrison: when dealing with her niece Cheryl's addiction and the other issues surrounding. Ah, what it was like when she was trying to reaclimate herself back into society. Um! But it was part of a possible issue called Replacement Child Syndrome, and that is the name of

00:01:25.730 --> 00:01:54.029 Frank R. Harrison: the first book. So today we are going to be talking about replacement, child syndrome, as well as the book replacement child with Judy Mandel, and of course Phyllis and I together will go ahead and look at a lot of the questions that Maybe we did not explore in the last episode, but any additional questions that we uncover, because upon reading this book, and for those of you who recall, I do have kind of a personal connection here in relation to my father

00:01:54.040 --> 00:01:57.999 Frank R. Harrison: having been a witness to the plane crashes that were involved.

00:01:58.010 --> 00:02:16.910 Frank R. Harrison: Um, I have been looking into understanding the trauma itself of either the witness, or especially the survivors, of what was a horrific event back in the fifties. Now I must issue my disclaimer, and I want to make sure I get that out of the way before we move forward.

00:02:17.190 --> 00:02:26.219 Frank R. Harrison: I just want to say this show is for information purposes, to foster an open conversation of experiences and insights in health.

00:02:26.230 --> 00:02:54.860 Frank R. Harrison: The content does not represent the views of talk, radio and Nyc. Or of frank about health. And we are presenting insights for your consideration. The views expressed are purely those of myself. My co-host, Phyllis and my guests today, Judy, and are not meant to be taken as medical advice. Please remember that you should always consult a medical professional before making any changes to your medical care. Therefore, while being frank about health,

00:02:54.870 --> 00:03:12.739 Frank R. Harrison: we want you to maintain whatever treatments and quality of life management programs that are working best for you. We hope to add value during the next hour that all being said, Welcome back, Judy, and of course, welcome is always Phyllis. Judy, you're on mute. So just unmute yourself.

00:03:13.030 --> 00:03:18.160 Phyllis Quinlan: Okay, and welcome back. Thank you. Thanks so much.

00:03:18.870 --> 00:03:21.130 Judy Mandel: Nice to see you both.

00:03:21.770 --> 00:03:51.750 Frank R. Harrison: Yes, so I can tell you. I looked at the the Youtube Channel. I think our show had garnered both both when we first aired as well as when we encore last week over thirty, five views. That's a very positive number, considering that we've only migrated to the Youtube Channel from Facebook over the past four or six weeks, I believe, at this point. But um! I know the content was very enriching, and we just felt we wanted to really get an understanding. Um! Well, first of all, I mean, did we have any ah

00:03:51.760 --> 00:04:14.110 Phyllis Quinlan: unanswered questions from our discussion hot addiction and white flag, I mean Phyllis. Did you have anything left on? Said No. But you know, towards the end of that interview. Uh, you know, Judy had talked about replacement, child, and it was very intriguing, and I was so glad you could come back and join us again this evening, because there were so many questions about that that were left unanswered.

00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:38.470 Phyllis Quinlan: So, Judy, can you share with us what you know? What was the reason you you felt the need to write that, and I am not familiar with replacement, child, syndrome, although I think i'm working it out for myself. But I don't want to presume I really want to know so you can share that with us, please. Yes, um, sure. And you're not alone. It's um. It's not talked about very much, and I had never heard of it

00:04:38.580 --> 00:04:53.089 Judy Mandel: either until I started writing this book. Um replacement, child, which is a while ago, boy, when you said, it's a decade that it sounds like so so long ago. That was was a long time ago. Um! So

00:04:53.520 --> 00:05:11.089 Judy Mandel: I started writing replacement, child, really to tell the story of my family. I had no idea about replacement child condition. Um. So I wanted to tell the story about how the the plane Cr: The site was the second of three plane crashes in one thousand nine hundred and fifty, two in Elizabeth, New Jersey,

00:05:11.100 --> 00:05:27.130 Judy Mandel: and this plane crashed right into my parents' apartment. They lived in a um a three story over a candy store and um it really the The plane cut off the top of the building and um spewed

00:05:27.140 --> 00:05:40.210 Judy Mandel: jet fuel into their apartment. You know flames and um my sister, my seven-year-old sister was killed in that in that crash. But my mom um saved three people that day,

00:05:40.220 --> 00:05:57.639 Judy Mandel: and she was always a hero to me for for doing that. My two year old sister Um was engulfed in flame, and my mother did get her out. She rolled her down the stairs, down the front stairs of the building, the only way out of the building and um.

00:05:57.650 --> 00:06:15.490 Judy Mandel: She was handing more, handing my sister Linda off to uh some stranger that actually just happened to by, and he saw that there was no way she could go back in for her other daughter Um! And held her back. And sure enough, that floor collapsed like at that moment.

00:06:15.500 --> 00:06:32.279 Judy Mandel: Um! So she she really had no chance. But before that she had gotten her own mother out she had gotten a friend of my my seven year old sister Donna. She had gotten her friend out, and she got my sister Lind out, and and then she got out so.

00:06:32.290 --> 00:06:47.929 Judy Mandel: And you know I wanted to tell that story. I know she She had tried to tell the story. She, you know I had a lot of notes from her where she tried to write out the story in long hands many times many. I have all of these um legal pads of her writings, one hundred and fifty one,

00:06:47.940 --> 00:07:03.649 Judy Mandel: and she left me an envelope filled with with the um, the newspaper clippings, and you know, notes and a lot of material, and of course I grew up with my sister Linda, who was badly burned and to crash. So I knew the aftermath of that,

00:07:03.660 --> 00:07:18.240 Judy Mandel: and I wanted to tell the story. But I wasn't sure what story I was telling, and it turns out I was also telling my own story, and that I was um. I was born after you know, the death of my sister,

00:07:18.260 --> 00:07:34.740 Judy Mandel: and was really the replacement child. I I came upon that term which was coined, I think, in one thousand nine hundred and sixty-four, and it was really to do with Ah! Holocaust survivors,

00:07:34.750 --> 00:07:40.389 Judy Mandel: And certainly there's an entire generation of replacement children, for from the holocaust

00:07:40.540 --> 00:07:51.929 Judy Mandel: um. So it was research that was done about about that and replacement children. Um, you know the strict um definition is a child born after the death of another,

00:07:51.940 --> 00:08:05.589 Judy Mandel: but it it can also be applied to many different conditions. It can be, you know, when um there might be a miscarriage. There might be an adoption. There's there are many different kinds of replacement, children.

00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:19.179 Judy Mandel: Um, and I've I've found out more about it, you know. As I um. I found other replacement children and formed the replacement, child Forum, which is you know something. We try to bring awareness to this.

00:08:19.190 --> 00:08:26.339 Judy Mandel: Um, one of our one of our co-founders is a psychologist.

00:08:26.690 --> 00:08:44.649 Judy Mandel: And she deals exclusively with replacement, children. So you know we we tried to put a wealth of information on there. Um about about the condition. Um, I know it has been called the syndrome, and it has been called a condition. Um, and there are, you know, certain features of it that

00:08:44.660 --> 00:08:57.700 Judy Mandel: I've found when I've met others, that we have a lot of the same things. We have um issues with identity, you know we have um insecurities about who we are and what we are and what we're doing, and um

00:08:57.830 --> 00:09:03.810 Judy Mandel: which in some ways we feel a brotherhood or sisterhood, you know, between us.

00:09:03.970 --> 00:09:12.600 Phyllis Quinlan: So it's a fascinating thing. And now that you've said that it really has its ideologies and holocaust families that survived

00:09:12.640 --> 00:09:14.200 Phyllis Quinlan: um or

00:09:14.730 --> 00:09:17.190 holocaust, you know,

00:09:17.620 --> 00:09:22.520 Phyllis Quinlan: survivors that went on to create families. Second families, if you will.

00:09:22.660 --> 00:09:36.589 Phyllis Quinlan: Um! It makes perfectly good sense. I understand the term better. But i'm i'm curious. Um, It sounds as though you've put together some kind of a forum, but i'm going to presume It's a little bit of a support group or a connection group.

00:09:36.910 --> 00:10:00.819 Judy Mandel: Um, yeah, we do webinars, and we do read outreach um. People write to us, and we, you know, have um ongoing conversations, and uh people do blog posts, and we do blog posts, and you know we try to reach people, and we try to uh put up resources for people as well

00:10:00.830 --> 00:10:15.399 Judy Mandel: mit ctl and um as a result of um feeling as though you are a replacement child, or getting that sense Sure, sure. And one of the big ones is identity, you know, trying to come to terms with your own identity, and who you are, you know one hundred and one

00:10:15.410 --> 00:10:20.859 Judy Mandel: feeling that you're replacing someone you know. It makes it difficult to you

00:10:20.880 --> 00:10:36.519 Judy Mandel: understand your place. You know that you are an individual on your own, and you know your existence is worthwhile, just as you um, And when we talk to parents we we tried to um

00:10:36.810 --> 00:10:51.780 Judy Mandel: um accentuate that piece of it that it's so important to recognize a child for their individuality, you know, as a unique person. They're not. You know they're not their sister. They're not their brother. They're they're who they are.

00:10:51.790 --> 00:11:06.470 Judy Mandel: Um, I think that is, that is probably the biggest um. Often, also when you there's a child who's who's died especially There's grief, and you know, living with the parent. Um, who who is going through grief?

00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:21.730 Judy Mandel: Um, in my case. My mother was going through grief when she carried me when I, when she was pregnant with me. Um! Which now I've found out is, you know, through writing White Flag. I've found out that that is even, you know, Another

00:11:21.780 --> 00:11:34.160 Judy Mandel: Another way that things are passed down is is when the mother is under stress like that, and grief is certainly a stress. What What made you think you were replaced and not conceived?

00:11:34.650 --> 00:11:37.680 Judy Mandel: Hmm.

00:11:38.770 --> 00:11:51.209 Phyllis Quinlan: You You mean a replacement to to my that you, your your conception, was intentional to replace someone who had passed as opposed to your conception being,

00:11:51.250 --> 00:12:07.479 Judy Mandel: you know, we hope we have a miracle of a child right right? And it could be both. And it is it is both. Um! I felt that you to think that Well, I possibly be the replacement piece, Sure, sure. Well, I know my parents only wanted two children.

00:12:07.580 --> 00:12:23.769 Judy Mandel: Um they, you know. I had been told they they wouldn't have had another child if my other sister had lived So that was certainly a clue. Um! I felt a distance mostly from my father. Um, I think for my mother. I was that miracle child.

00:12:23.780 --> 00:12:28.159 Judy Mandel: Um for her, and I think it. It helped her a great deal to have me.

00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:46.609 Judy Mandel: Um. But I also, you know, after looking back at pictures, and and you know, in retrospect, Um! When I was a child I looked very much like the daughter they lost um. I can't imagine that they didn't think of that. My father had a big problem with connecting with me,

00:12:46.620 --> 00:12:48.979 Judy Mandel: and I do feel like um.

00:12:49.020 --> 00:12:52.340 Judy Mandel: I couldn't replace his firstborn daughter.

00:12:53.180 --> 00:13:02.579 Frank R. Harrison: Wow! We're about to take our first spring, but before we do I wanted to ask you quickly how soon after what happened in Elizabeth

00:13:02.630 --> 00:13:31.740 Frank R. Harrison: Were you conceived? Was it late? Literally a year later, was a couple years later. Well, at least it was. It was the um accident was in one thousand nine hundred and fifty, two. I was born in in fifty four. So it was, you know, pretty close, all right. When we return. We're going to talk about replacement child, the book, as well as further develop some of the questions Phyllis just asks, in addition to really understanding the impact that not only in writing the book that this whole entire paradigm, that is, to find her life,

00:13:31.750 --> 00:13:46.099 Frank R. Harrison: but at the same time created a very successful career in in writing. And So please stay tuned as we're talking about replacement, child, right here on Frank about health, both on talk, radio and Nyc. And on our Youtube Channel. Be back in a few.

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00:15:22.400 --> 00:15:33.649 You're listening to talk radio, nyc uplift educate and power.

00:15:33.810 --> 00:15:34.910 You

00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:37.390 you!

00:15:38.790 --> 00:15:39.690 You!

00:15:42.700 --> 00:15:43.620 You

00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:26.420 Frank R. Harrison: welcome back. We're here with Ah, Judy Mandel discussing replacement, child. Um before the break. Um! I was questioning. Ah, pretty much the the time duration between the the disaster that killed her sister Um. And when she was born, and I know that, Phyllis, you were talking about our asking Judy what made her feel that sense of being a replacement child? And I know, Judy, you answered it pretty precisely in terms of how

00:16:26.430 --> 00:16:31.730 Frank R. Harrison: you you knew that there was only going to be two children if your sister had lived.

00:16:31.740 --> 00:17:01.719 Frank R. Harrison: But I also picked up a sense of something you actually discussed on our last episode about transgenerational trauma, that that during the grief cycle your mother was going through while she carried you, she must have been communicating that grief through her Dna, or or in Utero, through whatever is going on during the nine months when you're in, you know, in utero. So what is your take on that. As to actually communicating to you internally through your own Dna, that you were a replacement child, or that it may have played a part

00:17:01.980 --> 00:17:21.220 Judy Mandel: in the syndrome that maybe you were involved in

00:17:21.230 --> 00:17:23.660 Judy Mandel: every organ, including the brain.

00:17:23.750 --> 00:17:39.230 Judy Mandel: Um, which is fascinating Right? Um. So it's physiological as well as even emotional, that this that this takes place, and I I carry that through even to my sister Linda.

00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:52.669 Judy Mandel: Who um is Cheryl's mother. You know who I talk about in white flag, and how you know her. Her life was filled with trauma, you know, from the time she was two, you know, all the way through her life

00:17:52.680 --> 00:18:10.680 Judy Mandel: with, you know, surgery after surgery, and also, you know, social pressures of of someone who looks different. And um, you know, has that kind of stress in their life all the time. So they the transgenerational trauma piece um, and epigenetics, which is part of that,

00:18:10.710 --> 00:18:20.410 Judy Mandel: I believe I believe you know, made a difference, certainly, in my life and in Cheryl's life and um carries through the family.

00:18:20.600 --> 00:18:31.829 Judy Mandel: So so I like to keep my. I like to keep my son appraised of that as well. We talk about it. Um! And he's he's aware. Um! He's a social worker, so

00:18:31.840 --> 00:18:49.869 Judy Mandel: you know he's he's he's aware of all this Hopefully, Kitty, I have hundreds of questions. Oh, I just need for you to to be patient with me while I try to. I can, because I realize this is a a very delicate subject for you, and i'm so glad you found writing

00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:57.000 Phyllis Quinlan: to be the Catharsis, you know, to express yourself and share your feelings, and of course, your insights with everyone.

00:18:57.080 --> 00:18:59.950 Phyllis Quinlan: I guess the first question I have is,

00:19:00.580 --> 00:19:10.620 Judy Mandel: how did you know your parents only wanted two children? Oh, I was told conversation with, you know, overhearing

00:19:10.630 --> 00:19:21.459 Judy Mandel: um! But it was known. You know. It's one of those things you that that's known in a family. They know we only wanted two children, and we wanted two children. So

00:19:21.590 --> 00:19:38.199 Phyllis Quinlan: yeah, it was. It seems like such a harsh thing to share with a child. Yeah, that to even plant the seed that you wouldn't be here if this didn't happen. Yeah. And and the the cascading effects of learning something like that. I can see how it could

00:19:38.210 --> 00:19:44.259 Phyllis Quinlan: truly affect how you you identify with yourself, and how you even see yourself

00:19:45.090 --> 00:19:57.169 Judy Mandel: as a as a full-fledged member of your family, you know I do. You know, I I recall, like, at certain conversations with a aunts and uncles, you know I I had one.

00:19:57.460 --> 00:20:00.379 Judy Mandel: I remember one uncle, saying, You know

00:20:00.540 --> 00:20:20.389 Judy Mandel: that I wasn't. I wasn't like Donna, or she's not like donna, you know donna was. Whenever there's a child who died. They They do kind of turn into an angel, child. You know nothing. They can't do anything wrong, of course, so they you know there's always that comparison. There's no way that there is not that comparison.

00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:22.550 Judy Mandel: And um,

00:20:22.660 --> 00:20:34.000 Judy Mandel: you know. For a while after I was writing a replacement, child, I think about two years. It took me a long time to write that book about five years, because I didn't what I was doing. I hadn't written a book before,

00:20:34.010 --> 00:20:52.719 Judy Mandel: and I was. I got very angry with my father at at one point you know that. Uh, because I realized that a lot of the withholding and distance had affected certainly my relationships. Um! You know my marriages everything. Um, this is my fourth marriage. I'll tell you that,

00:20:52.730 --> 00:21:05.709 Judy Mandel: and you know i'm finally very happily married. But you know that that part of that missing piece of of my father, I believe, is was something detrimental to me.

00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:16.579 Judy Mandel: Now I don't blame him anymore, and I have certainly gotten rid of that kind of anger towards him, because I know what he was going through. He lost his child. He lost his first born.

00:21:16.710 --> 00:21:21.570 Judy Mandel: He couldn't. He really just couldn't get over it. He just couldn't. You did the best he could,

00:21:21.690 --> 00:21:35.729 Phyllis Quinlan: and did you have a an open conversation with your mom about this when you were older? Or is it just something you? She was grieving enough, And you didn't want to add to that grief, or you had questions that

00:21:36.460 --> 00:21:45.740 Judy Mandel: you, you know you hesitated to even ask. Do with. How did that? How did that dynamic? Well, much like many families? Um, we didn't talk about it,

00:21:45.750 --> 00:22:01.750 Judy Mandel: Irish. I didn't realize it was. Oh, no, we didn't talk about it at all. In fact, I didn't even know the anniversary of the plane crash until I was starting to write that book.

00:22:01.970 --> 00:22:05.510 Judy Mandel: Um

00:22:05.530 --> 00:22:18.499 Judy Mandel: right right, and then I didn't know my sister Donna's birthday until years after um, when I had something scheduled for that day. July. It's July twenty fifth.

00:22:18.860 --> 00:22:23.219 Judy Mandel: My my sister Linda said, Oh, it's on Donna's birthday,

00:22:23.270 --> 00:22:27.560 Judy Mandel: and I had no idea that that was Dawn's birthday.

00:22:27.590 --> 00:22:35.139 Judy Mandel: I mean, we have a tradition, a Jewish tradition on a York site which is the day of death that you light a candle for that person.

00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:36.330 Judy Mandel: Um!

00:22:36.420 --> 00:22:48.619 Judy Mandel: I realized that my mother always lit the candle on the date of that plane crash, but she never told me why she never talked about it. She never talked about donna

00:22:48.900 --> 00:22:57.670 Judy Mandel: uh they didn't talk about her. There was um kind of a memorial wall to her on my father's side of the room in their bedroom.

00:22:57.710 --> 00:23:11.030 Judy Mandel: Um! And so that was that was it. I only remember my mother talking about um, donna once when I was, you know, maybe twelve or so, you know, and talking about a picture of her that um

00:23:11.040 --> 00:23:20.659 Judy Mandel: she uh she was too fat to walk at that age, she said. She just doted on her and got her everything she wanted, and you know she told me kind of a funny story about her,

00:23:20.700 --> 00:23:37.699 Judy Mandel: and then the only time my father spoke of her was when I had to talk to him in his eighties about. What is he want to do? You know, when when he passes away. What do you you know you have to talk about? I didn't want to, but we had to,

00:23:37.710 --> 00:23:47.369 Judy Mandel: and he said that he wanted to be cremated, which is not a Jewish tradition, because that's how his daughter died.

00:23:47.790 --> 00:23:49.120 Judy Mandel: Which one?

00:23:49.430 --> 00:23:50.940 Yeah, that was tough.

00:23:51.070 --> 00:24:07.830 Phyllis Quinlan: How how did the dynamic work out between you and your now older sister Um, who was also in that in that horrific fire? Um, you know. Did did it interfere with the bonding you had with her. Um!

00:24:08.770 --> 00:24:13.080 Phyllis Quinlan: Did she ever kind of, you know, intimate that

00:24:14.250 --> 00:24:16.399 Phyllis Quinlan: you were replacing Donna?

00:24:17.090 --> 00:24:23.779 Judy Mandel: I think you know that was a different kind of dynamic, because she didn't remember, and she was two years old,

00:24:23.790 --> 00:24:51.480 Judy Mandel: you know. We had a a kind of reversed um age relationship, so that I felt a little bit like her protector, even though I was younger. Um, because I felt she needed that. You know there are. There were kids that would stare. They would say nasty things where they You know how that is with anybody different. Um! And I felt like I needed to protect her from that it from a very young age.

00:24:52.580 --> 00:25:08.879 Frank R. Harrison: Well, I look at the prologue that you wrote in the book. I mean, if you don't mind my quoting, it's like a It's almost like a poem, and I know it was your dedication to Donna and your your mother, and so I I just have to quote it based on what you just said,

00:25:08.900 --> 00:25:19.110 Frank R. Harrison: I am older now than you will ever be. Sometimes you come to me on the wind. A gentle whisper on a morning breeze not to frighten your little sister.

00:25:19.120 --> 00:25:29.919 Frank R. Harrison: At first I didn't recognize you, but I know It's you walking to school on a crisp fall morning. I hear music sometimes a tune. She was just seventeen

00:25:29.930 --> 00:25:42.750 Frank R. Harrison: other times a soaring trumpet or a whaling sex music from the trees inside the clouds. You point to every day, and champions teach me to wallow in the small delights of this fleeting life.

00:25:42.820 --> 00:26:02.409 Frank R. Harrison: It sounds like to me that while you were writing the book you were getting to know your sister. You never met, and you definitely had a bond because she was kind of the explanation of your own identity. But at the same time you were understanding the value that your father placed in her,

00:26:02.420 --> 00:26:22.139 Judy Mandel: and while you were trying to develop yourself,

00:26:22.150 --> 00:26:40.589 Judy Mandel: it was the first thing I ever wrote about Donna, and it was when I was in college, and I started to think about you. Think about this. Um, so that that was my my first, you know kind of for a into thinking about her, even though I I realized I had always been thinking about her.

00:26:40.930 --> 00:26:52.099 Phyllis Quinlan: When you, when you talk to the people in the group that you found the support group are there. These kinds of comments? There are shared commonalities

00:26:52.110 --> 00:27:07.110 Phyllis Quinlan: mit ctl. And, for instance, the family doesn't talk about the child that passed. Nobody talks about the circumstances. Somewhere along the line there is an intimation to a child that they are. You know your parents never wanted more than two or three children, and here you are. One hundred and fifty

00:27:07.120 --> 00:27:24.610 Judy Mandel: E. Are these common things that are communicated to the replacement child along the way eerily. Yes, it's. It's so strange, not strange, but understandable. Um! The more you talk to people that have this in common two hundred and fifty

00:27:24.620 --> 00:27:41.860 Judy Mandel: um! The more these commonalities come across um, some to more or lesser degree than others. Um! Some people are very damaged by it. I have to say Um, they might have a a much more extreme version of this with their parents than I did.

00:27:41.870 --> 00:27:56.139 Judy Mandel: You know I still felt loved. Um. I know I felt loved from my mother unconditionally all the time. Um! And I was lucky to have that um one person in our group that she never felt love from her mother,

00:27:56.360 --> 00:28:00.440 Judy Mandel: so that I mean that was a totally different experience for her.

00:28:00.490 --> 00:28:13.930 Judy Mandel: Um, so it it's different for everybody but those commonalities of um feeling lesser, and not feeling that they are themselves, or are allowed to be themselves.

00:28:13.940 --> 00:28:33.139 Judy Mandel: Um are very a common theme that go through and um and that's that's really why we form that group is is to bring, you know, some of these awarenesses so that people can, you know, talk about it, and it does cripple. Some people's lives. Other people become.

00:28:33.150 --> 00:28:46.680 Judy Mandel: I mean, there's a lot of creative people that were, you know, replacement children, you know, from Solvent or Dolly to Freud to to. Well, Elvis is a twin, was twin, which is another kind of replacement.

00:28:46.690 --> 00:29:16.670 Frank R. Harrison: Um, we're about to take on another break, but everyone out there must get this book replacement, child. It does not read like a documentary about the events of the Elizabeth plane crashes, or even about replacement child syndrome, but it reads as a very moving portrait of what it's like to overcome that kind of trauma, that horrific crash, for example, that made national news. But at the same time I can only imagine what we've been discussing the last

00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:32.239 Frank R. Harrison: half hour. The impacts are long, long, lasting, so everyone must get this so that they can also find their place if they feel that they are replacement children as well. Amazon Com. By the way, we'll be back in a few to follow up on replacement. Child

00:29:32.290 --> 00:29:34.510 Frank R. Harrison: syndrome. Stay tuned.

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00:31:13.970 --> 00:31:14.890 You

00:31:34.330 --> 00:32:03.899 Frank R. Harrison: welcome back over the last month. You've all seen episodes, obviously with Judy Mandel, as well as other episodes that Phyllis and I have coordinated, that all focused on various aspects of mental health. But I think what I've learned even from the last half hour is that when you actually are going through a trauma that defines you and defines the people that you have not really met, but yet you develop a relationship with them, because you understand, like especially in Judy's case, if she was considered the replacement child, just the exploration

00:32:03.910 --> 00:32:29.969 Frank R. Harrison: of writing this book replacement child is helping her find answers to who she is, in addition to what you already were brought up knowing about yourself. But as she also indicated prior to the last break. There are people who discover that they are replacement children for whatever reason, and whether it cripples them or they do not have the ability to come out of that. It It is evident that Judy definitely did master that class. I mean.

00:32:29.980 --> 00:32:59.019 Frank R. Harrison: This book was a New York Times bestseller. From what I recall, not to mention, of course, the the the additional book of White Flag, and how Cheryl basically was carrying on the tradition of what happened in one thousand nine hundred and fifty two. But through her own life, experience, and your own feelings of having been quote unquote a replacement, child. You were trying your best to help her, and you felt guilty when it was not your place to feel guilty. But I can now learn and reflect and understand

00:32:59.030 --> 00:33:22.560 Frank R. Harrison: why you were dealing with those emotions. So you must, in your own way have become not just your own advocate, like I always say, for everyone who is on the show. But you have in a sense, learn to be your own. I guess not. Therapist or psychologists in relation to understanding that this as a personality disorder, or as a a sense of identity, how how would you qualify it?

00:33:23.100 --> 00:33:40.050 Judy Mandel: Um, I think I did learn a lot by writing that book. I certainly discovered even the the notion of a replacement child through that um, and then connecting with other people um with the same same feelings and the same background, almost

00:33:40.060 --> 00:33:44.959 Judy Mandel: from different experiences, taught me a great deal.

00:33:44.970 --> 00:34:04.799 Judy Mandel: And um, even though I had, I've certainly been in therapy, I mean, nobody ever talked about this. Nobody ever, you know. Maybe they never even talked about the plane crash with, you know. Asked me about it, or asked me about my family's, you know. Trauma um um. But

00:34:04.810 --> 00:34:06.939 Judy Mandel: I think it really did help me

00:34:06.950 --> 00:34:35.480 Judy Mandel: to realize that there are other people that have been through this. It's not unique that you know just identifying something sometimes gives you a relief, I mean, even if it's a medical diagnosis. Sometimes you go to the doctor, and something's wrong with you and say what is wrong with me, and it just having the diagnosis makes you feel like, Oh, okay, i'm. You know there's something there. This is real thing,

00:34:35.550 --> 00:34:41.029 Phyllis Quinlan: you know, Judy. Um, you know the the sense of belonging

00:34:41.340 --> 00:34:44.359 It's so primal to humans.

00:34:44.370 --> 00:35:05.929 Phyllis Quinlan: You know the sense of belonging to your family the sense of belonging having a sense of mission and purpose belonging to groups, I mean, even if we go back to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that sense of belonging is, you know, one of the levels just right after safety. No, I think safety and security is first, and then a sense of belonging comes after that. Um, but

00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:10.989 Phyllis Quinlan: but I can. I can only imagine, and maybe you can share a little bit of

00:35:11.090 --> 00:35:12.339 Phyllis Quinlan: so,

00:35:12.350 --> 00:35:36.349 Phyllis Quinlan: although there was this energy around you didn't necessarily belong as a first choice, or as a wanted child from the get go I I I i'm only trying i'm not. I don't even know if I have the words. But you know the the the inference of not talking about anything, the inference. If we only wanted two children, and you wouldn't be here if Donna had lived.

00:35:36.530 --> 00:35:48.470 Phyllis Quinlan: That's got to rock your world. And what does that do to your sense of belonging? And how do you? How do you realize that, or how does that affect your life going forward?

00:35:48.730 --> 00:35:54.990 Judy Mandel: Well, in my case it was also a sense of responsibility

00:35:55.020 --> 00:35:56.830 Judy Mandel: to um

00:35:56.870 --> 00:35:58.919 Judy Mandel: make the family whole

00:35:59.230 --> 00:36:04.580 Judy Mandel: to you know. I write in the book, you know, to be the sav for the burns,

00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:25.190 Judy Mandel: and I think I felt that I think I always felt that whether it was unconscious or you know, subconscious that um that was that was my role and responsibility, which is a big responsibility for a little kid um five, and it was, you know my My sister Linda would go through surgeries.

00:36:25.200 --> 00:36:39.290 Judy Mandel: Um! She would come home. She'd be in pain. She'd need things, and it was really my job to cheer her up, and you know, help her through the recovery period, and that happened every year until she was eighteen. I think it was

00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:48.220 Judy Mandel: so. That was that was it an ongoing occurrence where not only did my mother kind of disappear for a couple of weeks while she was in the hospital,

00:36:48.230 --> 00:37:00.109 Judy Mandel: but she would come home, and I would be the cheerleader, you know. At one point I was I. She came home, and I was dressed up in my little nurse uniform when she came home, which everybody thought was very cute,

00:37:00.170 --> 00:37:14.639 Judy Mandel: which it was cute. I was adorable. I took it seriously, very seriously. When you have chosen to become a professional caregiver,

00:37:15.130 --> 00:37:23.680 Phyllis Quinlan: that's not an uncommon piece that you know. At one point somebody in the family needed caring for,

00:37:23.690 --> 00:37:52.719 Phyllis Quinlan: and you were the one that stepped up to do that. It's also you hear a lot with Stand up, comics, Robin Williams in particular. Um where he talks about. I was responsible for keeping my mom happy, and that's how he started to become funny, and then made it his life's work, and the other piece of becoming a professional caregiver, you know, is the you become a peacemaker, like? If there's tension in the group, it's up to you, then, to make sure that

00:37:52.730 --> 00:38:11.520 Phyllis Quinlan: everybody's needs are met except yours, because no one's paying attention to your needs. You're paying so much attention to others. One of the reasons why professional caregivers do such a lousy job of self care. It's just that it never dawned on us, you know, very similar. I can really relate to that

00:38:11.530 --> 00:38:17.169 Judy Mandel: very much. I didn't go into that kind of profession, but I certainly could have

00:38:17.180 --> 00:38:34.630 Judy Mandel: i'm i'm very surprised you didn't, because you've got all the prerequisites. Yeah life experiences at a at an a lot of um, a lot of psychologists and psychiatrists that that do relate as replacement children also, or they had someone who needed care in their family, one hundred and fifty

00:38:34.640 --> 00:38:50.730 Phyllis Quinlan: along the lines of belonging, and the need for belonging can you share with us again. Is it the Forum? Um, Because I think if people are identifying with well, that explains a lot. And all of a sudden it's dawning on them that potentially they are a replacement child, even in adulthood.

00:38:50.740 --> 00:39:10.060 Phyllis Quinlan: Um, you know I I would love for you to talk a little bit more about that forum, because it sounds like a very open non judgmental group of people that offer a sense of belonging uh with this common event in their life, it is it? Is it's? Uh, and they can go to replacement, child Forum dot com

00:39:10.070 --> 00:39:22.339 Judy Mandel: mit ctl, and it's very simple, so it's just the name replacement child Forum, and on it there are. There are articles there are resources. Um, we like, I said. We have one hundred and fifty

00:39:22.430 --> 00:39:36.219 Judy Mandel: mit ctl and webinars that we do for people. We've done ones on relationships and grief, and we're planning some more of those um coming up in the next couple of months. Have you ever done anything about forgiveness? One hundred and fifty?

00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:55.039 Phyllis Quinlan: No, we haven't. I think we should do that. I think I want to. I want to pitch that not as me being. But I just think that it is quite the topic that should need to be spoken about out loud and a time when you know again, it's not something that's talked about, because

00:39:55.390 --> 00:40:01.909 Phyllis Quinlan: I understand forgiveness. It's not It's not letting anybody off the hook the way

00:40:02.830 --> 00:40:20.969 Phyllis Quinlan: I've I've come to know it. It's it's you know the the You're not saying that the event didn't happen you're not. You're You're not saying that the event that happened whatever was is okay, and I forgive you. The active forgiveness is is enabling you, then, to put things down so you can move forward,

00:40:21.790 --> 00:40:33.809 Phyllis Quinlan: and I think That would be a lovely topic for that group, because it sounds like there's a a need there. And in my book replacement, child, that's where I come to is forgiveness.

00:40:33.820 --> 00:40:53.589 Judy Mandel: Um, also kind of within yourself, I mean. Did you blame yourself in any way, or is it just forgiveness to all the people in your life like your father, and and anything that you know, not being able to be the the child that died. I mean that you know there, because there's no way to do that, of course.

00:40:53.600 --> 00:41:13.569 Judy Mandel: Um! But for me it was mostly forgiving my dad, for you know as as good a man as he was, and he was um that he could not come get over this particular thing. Um, for me he was a and I interestingly, when I wrote that book, and my sister read it.

00:41:13.580 --> 00:41:16.959 Judy Mandel: Um, she said. My dad wasn't like that,

00:41:17.060 --> 00:41:30.629 Judy Mandel: you know, because siblings they they have different experiences, of course, with their parents, and he did not have that experience with him, with him, with, you know, at interacting with my sister,

00:41:30.640 --> 00:41:37.200 Judy Mandel: it was she should have anything to make her day better for what she's been through which I agreed with,

00:41:37.300 --> 00:41:38.479 Judy Mandel: and

00:41:38.520 --> 00:41:39.470 Judy Mandel: you know,

00:41:39.490 --> 00:41:44.649 Judy Mandel: sometimes did her well, and sometimes did not. But he was different with her.

00:41:45.420 --> 00:41:54.930 Frank R. Harrison: How would you compare replacement, child, to White Flag in terms of the continued exploration of intergenerational problem?

00:41:55.230 --> 00:42:14.349 Judy Mandel: Yeah, exactly. Both on Amazon Dot Com. By the way, thank you, but no problem, no I how it. I compare it like a a a subset or some topic. It's definitely a continuation and a thread,

00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:33.559 Judy Mandel: you know, running straight through to it. Um, as I said, you know my sister Linda went through so much trauma, and and Cheryl was a very sensitive soul, and there's no way that she didn't. She didn't feel that her whole life, um or other, you know other mitigating circumstances, of course,

00:42:33.570 --> 00:42:40.000 Judy Mandel: with with with Cheryl she had depression, and she also had sexual abuse as a child.

00:42:40.130 --> 00:42:42.069 Judy Mandel: And there

00:42:42.150 --> 00:42:56.880 Judy Mandel: they're all those pieces of the complexity of substance use disorder as well. Um. But the generational trauma you know that I talk about in replacement, Child certainly is, runs right right into white flag.

00:42:56.970 --> 00:43:13.810 Judy Mandel: Are there any plans for a third book in relation to trauma or substance, abuse or addiction, or

00:43:13.820 --> 00:43:30.320 Judy Mandel: and some short stories just something shorter, because it takes so long to write the book. It takes a long time, but I am learning a lot more that I you know I keep thinking Well, I should have added that as a chapter, you know I should have had that as a chapter one hundred and one.

00:43:30.330 --> 00:43:35.589 Judy Mandel: So you know there are, you know the wheels are starting to turn a little bit about that.

00:43:35.810 --> 00:44:03.530 Frank R. Harrison: Well, that's good. I mean overall. I know, like what you said in the last section about how, when there are so many people, especially the holocaust survivors that created replacement children. People either, you know, evolve or devolve, depending on the circumstances. But I really do see evidence not only in your writing of both books. But just even in our shows together, you definitely have mastered it. In being able to define yourself in a much

00:44:03.540 --> 00:44:30.360 Frank R. Harrison: uh elevate, a talented way. I You used it to your benefit and to your and to your intent with your life, and I think very kind. Thank you. I don't want to use a joke, but at the same time I'm also being frank with you, I am. But i'm also being, I guess there's a there's a compassion. I have, because I have understood, even in my own personal experience, and having to watch

00:44:30.370 --> 00:44:40.199 Frank R. Harrison: my father in particular, who you had a chance to talk with, and not to mention even. I have a cousin that's been going through a lot this past year, and I have found myself

00:44:40.210 --> 00:45:01.470 Frank R. Harrison: like what you described, reaching out in the name of family, to provide the care that I with my resources. But not being a doctor, the only thing I could do is advocate. But yet what it did was, Allow me this platform which I've been working on for now sixty plus episodes. So yeah, I think i'm reflecting off of your experience to say that it is in the trauma

00:45:01.480 --> 00:45:31.300 Phyllis Quinlan: that we know our best self, whether it's at the moment or in the future; and I hope that the listeners and viewers out there. Get that that message as I have.

00:45:31.310 --> 00:45:40.340 Phyllis Quinlan: Establish your own sense of identity in some way. Are you finding that people are choosing the arts in this particular group as an avenue to do that.

00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:44.029 Judy Mandel: The the arts and um psychology

00:45:44.110 --> 00:45:45.149 Judy Mandel: both

00:45:45.170 --> 00:45:58.840 Judy Mandel: um like, I said one of our our co-founders is um, you know, a psychologist? Um! She's a psychoanalyst actually um and she teaches, and it's all about replacement child. Condition.

00:45:58.970 --> 00:46:01.759 Judy Mandel: Um, so she is very accomplished in that

00:46:01.930 --> 00:46:10.060 Frank R. Harrison: we have to take our. We have to take our final break. But I want you to talk about that in the final section when we want to

00:46:10.070 --> 00:46:22.159 Frank R. Harrison: look at the future of all of this, especially for those that have evolved as a result of their own relation to replacement, child. Syndrome, Ladies and gentlemen, just stay tuned right here on Frank about health. We'll be back in a few.

00:46:25.230 --> 00:46:49.290 Everybody. It's to me deed and nonprofit. Sector Connecticut coming at you from my adding each week here on top radio, Dot Nyc: I hosted program the land of in focus. The nonprofits impact us each and every day, and it's my focus to help them amplify their message and tell their story. Listen each week at ten Am. Eastern Standard time until eleven am. It's some day of time right here on talk radio, dot in Myc.

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00:48:20.370 --> 00:48:50.249 Frank R. Harrison: Welcome back to the conclusion of this episode of Frank about health. It seems that we went over a little bit, so it looks like we have about ten minutes left, but it's perfect timing to kind of wrap up. And we were just talking about how a lot of people who have had an experience being, quote unquote the replacement child have discovered their lives and their and their and their livelihoods in the arts and in psychology and and caregiving, I presume, and among other things, I wanted you to finish up on that a little bit. So I apologize for having modules.

00:48:50.260 --> 00:49:08.289 Judy Mandel: You know there are a lot of artists. Um that you know Come from replacement, child. Background Salvador Dolly was one of them. Um, I don't have it on the trip of my time. But If you go to our website you will see that there's tons of artists and writers and um psychologists and

00:49:08.300 --> 00:49:21.670 Judy Mandel: um renowned psychiatrists. So it's something that um has fed a lot of a lot of accomplishments as well. Um, So that's that's a good thing. We like to point to that

00:49:21.680 --> 00:49:36.599 Phyllis Quinlan: for people. I'm. I'm. I'm. Never disappointed by the human spirits desire to be seen, heard, and validated, and not getting that for whatever reason, because of cultural family circumstances,

00:49:36.610 --> 00:49:48.549 Phyllis Quinlan: or the fact that you know your parents, or whomever has not really worked through bereavement successfully, or in a healthy way, you know, to be able to to find the grit,

00:49:48.560 --> 00:50:07.120 Phyllis Quinlan: you know, to be able to say, I will not be muffled. I am going to have a voice, and I will express myself. However, I can only say, Judy, I I can't even imagine the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people you helped by finding the courage and the grid to put this book together

00:50:07.130 --> 00:50:13.439 Phyllis Quinlan: because i'm I'm sitting here, and i'm i'm heartbroken for you. But I am

00:50:13.820 --> 00:50:21.429 Phyllis Quinlan: inspired by you. That's and I i'm sure that many of our listeners are feeling that way, and I'm.

00:50:21.690 --> 00:50:36.629 Phyllis Quinlan: I really hope those who who are listening who perhaps suspect that they are replacement children, and are just not quite sure. Read your book, and maybe even join the Forum, so that they can

00:50:36.730 --> 00:50:50.469 Phyllis Quinlan: find an answer for themselves, even if their parents are no longer with them or anything but it, you know. Sometimes when the dots line up or the stars align, you know insight, and

00:50:51.330 --> 00:51:05.909 Judy Mandel: um, you know, being seen in her is such a big part of it. Um, you know. I realized also, you know, in my childhood, when I was a little kid,

00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:21.500 Judy Mandel: you know I took up music, and I was always, you know, dressing up and dancing around, you know, drawing attention to myself, you know, in any way I could. Yeah, yeah, definitely definitely a thing and it But later on I, you know, performed. I have, you know, I,

00:51:21.510 --> 00:51:39.189 Judy Mandel: and that had a lot to do with it

00:51:39.200 --> 00:51:44.180 Phyllis Quinlan: that needs to be celebrated, and you know, offered up in thanks that you didn't go a different way.

00:51:44.310 --> 00:51:47.180 Judy Mandel: Yeah, Yeah. So I'm: i'm very grateful for that

00:51:47.190 --> 00:52:17.170 Frank R. Harrison: myself. Yeah, I know. I read. So I read your your poem in your book earlier. But all this talk about Salvador and Dolly. I actually have another quote that i'm reading from Wikipedia, and I think it's relevant, especially in terms of understanding that when anyone feels that they're inadequate for whatever the circumstances may be, and in the topic of the show the whole aspect of being a replacement child. It says: Here in nineteen eighty clinicians, Robert Krell and Leslie Rapkin identified three types of replacement.

00:52:17.180 --> 00:52:35.850 Frank R. Harrison: The haunted child who lives in a family overwhelmed by guilt and silence; the bound child, who is entirely precious and sometimes overprotected, and the resurrected child, who is treated as a reincarnation of the dead sibling gather. That's probably

00:52:35.860 --> 00:52:55.669 Judy Mandel: i'm the over protective piece, too. I mean that that filters down in my my poor son, you know he's definitely with an overprotected little little guy still still has to call me if he takes a plane ride. So thirty, four years old. Yes, absolutely no um. But it says here, artists,

00:52:55.970 --> 00:53:17.390 Judy Mandel: Salvador, Dali, and Vincent, and go. Oh, yeah, Van Gogh is a famous one. That's a great one, because um! He actually had to pass by a gravestone every day on his way to school with his own name on it, because his brother was named the same as him who died

00:53:17.580 --> 00:53:36.010 Frank R. Harrison: brothers of the same name, who died before their birth, their resurrected children. It's incredible. By the way, I can also relate Vincent Van Gogh because he was also an epileptic, and my whole history has been about epilepsy. So I guess Vincent Mango is the package deal and understanding a lot of health care issues. Yes, he is,

00:53:36.020 --> 00:53:49.999 Judy Mandel: I imagine, the complication of not just being feeling like You're a a replacement child, but actually being named.

00:53:50.010 --> 00:54:03.520 Phyllis Quinlan: I can't even imagine where a you know, a toddler or a young child begins to try to make sense

00:54:03.820 --> 00:54:10.589 Judy Mandel: or piece with that

00:54:11.780 --> 00:54:24.959 Judy Mandel: is, uh. She tells the story of the fact that she lived within view of her brother's gravestone. Um, you know her whole life. You know those kinds of things, you know, and don't go away.

00:54:25.060 --> 00:54:26.599 They don't go away.

00:54:27.140 --> 00:54:35.739 Frank R. Harrison: Wow! Well, we we are about two minutes left. So now is all the promotional time. I did want to ask you, based on um

00:54:35.750 --> 00:54:51.989 Frank R. Harrison: our last show, You said there was a rally going on about a month ago about the government's involvement in helping people with addiction. Do you have any updates on that? Um! Actually, it was. It was a memorial kind of thing for people who had died of opioid use.

00:54:52.000 --> 00:55:05.539 Judy Mandel: Um, And it was. It was in Washington by um. The organization organizations called Truth Farm, Ph and um, actually it's a very good organization for people to visit um Tooth farmcom

00:55:05.550 --> 00:55:20.329 Judy Mandel: actually tooth farm org, and they have a lot of great information for people who have people with substance use disorder in their lives. Um! They have training, and they have um a great deal of information on there.

00:55:20.620 --> 00:55:38.550 Judy Mandel: And then again, what are your socials where people can reach out to you for anything. Um replacement white flag. So for the well, there's the replacement, child Forum dot com. There's uh my website is Judy Mandel. Dot com

00:55:38.560 --> 00:56:02.190 Judy Mandel: um i'm on Facebook. I'm actually on everything now. Facebook and Twitter and Linkedin and I even got into tik Tok. For some reason i'm not sure why, but it's out there, so I thought I would try it. You know Instagram pictures. Um! They could find me almost anywhere.

00:56:02.200 --> 00:56:19.690 Frank R. Harrison: They can also find you right here on talk radio and Nyc. Both the show. We've just done as well as the show we did last week, and as well as last month, because last week it was on cord. But ah, ladies and gentlemen, stay tuned for our Friday slative shows, which are philanthropy and focus with Tommy D. And Stephen Fries

00:56:19.700 --> 00:56:38.559 Frank R. Harrison: Friday right here on talk radio that Nyc. Next week, right here on talk radio. We will be hosting a special guest. Ben Litel, with Phyllis and I and James Swanson, as we cover our uncover what life in the post-pandemic might look like

00:56:38.570 --> 00:57:08.549 Frank R. Harrison: he calls himself a futurist. His book is called The potentialists. It's a very interesting program, and you will have a chance to even comment about it, because it was pre-recorded allowing people time to ask any questions on our Youtube Channel so other than those things. Thank you, Sam again. Thank you, Dylan, for producing the show. I finally said, Thank you before the show ended, and at the same time Thank you, Phyllis, for always being here and and bringing the whole medical awareness issue

00:57:08.560 --> 00:57:11.879 Frank R. Harrison: to what we talk about every week. And Judy.

00:57:12.650 --> 00:57:15.000 Judy Mandel: Thank you.

00:57:15.150 --> 00:57:17.980 Frank R. Harrison: Thank you very much.

00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:27.630 Yes, so everybody we're signing off. Stay tuned, and we'll see you next week.

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