Frank About Health

Thursday, September 22, 2022
Facebook Live Video from 2022/09/22 - White Flag: A Story About Addiction and Generational Trauma

Facebook Live Video from 2022/09/22 - White Flag: A Story About Addiction and Generational Trauma


2022/09/22 - White Flag: A Story About Addiction and Generational Trauma

[NEW EPISODE] White Flag: A Story About Addiction and Generational Trauma


You will learn about the personal story of addiction which Judy Mandel's niece Cheryl struggled with after the events of a plane crash in 1952.


Judy L. Mandel is a former reporter and marketing executive. After the death of her parents, she knew that it was time to write the story of her family; their emotional and physical survival of a devastating plane crash that killed an older sister and left a remaining sister critically burned and close to death.

Her new book, WHITE FLAG, is related to her first book as she becomes aware of the tentacles of transgenerational trauma stemming from the family tragedy—the plane crash in 1952. WHITE FLAG is an investigative memoir centered on her niece’s struggle with an addiction to opiates.



instagram: @mandeljudy



Tune in for this healthy conversation at

Show Notes

Segment 1

Today, Frank brings guest Judy Mandel, as well as returning co-host Phyllis Quinlan onto the show for Part 1 of his two episode investigation into the concept of generational trauma and addiction. He first gives the background on Judy as well as talks about her book White Flag. Judy then talks about brain chemistry and the effects drugs have on your brain, and it helped her understand why her niece couldn’t stop using drugs, and relapsed.

Segment 2

Judy talks about how she believes that trauma trails through generations. She then talks about her sister’s experience with a plane crash as well as how it affected her family and herself. She then explains how her niece got addiction, sharing how besides the plane crash when she was younger, there was generational trauma from it, as well as from a young age she was sexually abused by her stepfather, and even when later on in life when she was in prison, she had no help and resources and ultimately ended up overdosing, and the guilt Judy felt for not being able to save her.

Segment 3

Frank recaps the last segment of the show, before Phyllis and Judy talk more about addiction, and the manipulative piece to it, and why group therapy is so effective, as well as why support systems are very vital. The three then talk about what it takes for people to want to get help and get better.

Segment 4

Judy talks about Replacement Child, which was the story about her family, and how a plane crash in 1952 changed all of their lives. The plane crash ignited a fire and killed Judy’s seven year old sister at the time, and badly injured her two year old sister, Linda (who was Cheryl’s mother). Judy then gives the audience some wisdom and advice, and how there is a march in Washington on Saturday the 24th by an organization trying to help make some changes in the legislation that will help people with substance use disorder called Truth Pharm. The episode is then closed out.


00:00:34.500 --> 00:01:04.490 Frank R. Harrison: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this very special episode of Frank about health. It's actually part one of a two episode investigation into the whole concept of generational trauma and addiction. And the reason why I say it's special, just like I said, Every one of them has been special for various reasons is because of Phyllis. You and I have been talking since the beginning of the summer about having a show on edition. It ran through a few ideas. But there was nothing more better

00:01:04.500 --> 00:01:11.279 Frank R. Harrison: than what Sam has been able to provide us, which is the introduction to best-selling New York Times, author,

00:01:11.340 --> 00:01:12.690 Frank R. Harrison: Judy Mandel.

00:01:12.700 --> 00:01:21.589 Frank R. Harrison: Now, basically. What is the right word here viscerating, very resonating with me.

00:01:21.600 --> 00:01:37.190 Frank R. Harrison: It's not just the content, and especially because it is focusing on a mental health issue and its relationship to addiction. But it's because it also focuses on events that occurred seventy years ago that my father was witness to,

00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:56.210 Frank R. Harrison: so which we are going to, of course, discuss and really shed light to the audience, and viewers out there as to how that may have a connection, not only to how we all connected this evening. But how addiction has its hand in transgenerational epigenetics, which I think is the concept.

00:01:56.220 --> 00:01:59.879 Frank R. Harrison: Now that all being said, let me first issue my disclaimer.

00:01:59.890 --> 00:02:28.619 Frank R. Harrison: Everyone who is listening to this episode of Frank about health is to understand that the information being shared by myself, Phyllis Quinlan and Judy Mandel is for information, and for it, and for knowledge that we like to share and engage. If it does not fit, or if it is meant, it is not meant to dissuade you from your ongoing treatments, your ongoing medications, or your ongoing belief system. So, therefore, it is not meant to also violate any interpretations,

00:02:28.630 --> 00:02:33.800 Frank R. Harrison: any opinions not meant to be held as as fat;

00:02:33.810 --> 00:02:49.449 Frank R. Harrison: that all being said, they are not the views of talk, radio and Nyc. Or Frank about health. But these particular episodes coming especially this one, will have true story content, and therefore some will have have to be understood and accepted as it

00:02:49.460 --> 00:02:53.770 Frank R. Harrison: All right Now let me give the background on who our guest is.

00:02:54.180 --> 00:03:22.300 Frank R. Harrison: Judy Mandel is a former reporter and marketing executive as her Mfa. In creative writing from Stony Brook University, and has also been a best-selling water for the book replacement Child, that is not the book we will be discussing today. However, it was the impetus for this book White flag available on Amazon com currently on pre-order. But we'll start on October first in actual sales and delivery.

00:03:22.310 --> 00:03:31.389 Phyllis Quinlan: It covers a true story about how her niece Cheryl, had suffered and battled her whole life with addiction.

00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:32.320 Frank R. Harrison: Good!

00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:47.799 Frank R. Harrison: She Basically, was wrapped in recovery, was wrapped in not resolving the trauma that led to her addiction. And also I understand, Judy, that Cheryl was one of the victims

00:03:47.810 --> 00:03:55.930 Frank R. Harrison: of the plane crash which we're going to discuss in more detail, but through the fire that ensued on the ground she wasn't actually on the plane

00:03:56.870 --> 00:03:58.100 Frank R. Harrison: all right.

00:03:58.290 --> 00:04:08.690 Judy Mandel: Cheryl was the daughter of my sister, who was in that house? That was the plane crashed into. That's the population. That's the relationship.

00:04:08.700 --> 00:04:09.190 Yeah,

00:04:09.200 --> 00:04:19.289 Frank R. Harrison: okay. And so, Phyllis. Now, to give you clarity on what happened in Elizabeth, New Jersey in one thousand nine hundred and fifty, one to fifty, two from December, through February,

00:04:19.300 --> 00:04:29.689 Frank R. Harrison: a fifty, eight to sixty day period, three plane crashes happened at Newark Airport. Crash! Number One was actually bound for Tampa, Florida.

00:04:29.700 --> 00:04:38.010 Frank R. Harrison: It was an American airline conveyor jet that actually crashed in the Elizabeth River,

00:04:38.020 --> 00:04:48.490 Frank R. Harrison: and then the second one, which I believe your duty your family was involved in indirectly, was actually coming from upstate New York,

00:04:48.500 --> 00:04:58.990 Frank R. Harrison: due to land at Newark Airport, and actually crash near an orphanage and a school, and into some apartment buildings in the same area. Elizabeth, New Jersey.

00:04:59.000 --> 00:04:59.890 Frank R. Harrison: Correct,

00:04:59.900 --> 00:05:00.490 I.

00:05:00.500 --> 00:05:28.760 Frank R. Harrison: And then crash. Number three was a national airlines, Dc. Nine, ten. That was also Florida mound that actually um was in the middle of the night during a rainstorm. I think there were some survivors, but what that led to was the complete investigation, and shut down of your airport at the time to understood. But understand What was it about the airport, or the jets, or what other crimes criteria needed to be re examined in order to make it a functional airport again, which it has been

00:05:28.770 --> 00:05:32.860 Frank R. Harrison: for the last seventy years. Now that all being said,

00:05:32.890 --> 00:05:35.690 Frank R. Harrison: the reason why it is so,

00:05:36.070 --> 00:05:41.349 Frank R. Harrison: I said, the word miserable for me is my father witnessed all three of them,

00:05:41.660 --> 00:05:44.150 Frank R. Harrison: and they have been blocks from his home,

00:05:44.210 --> 00:05:44.890 the

00:05:44.900 --> 00:05:51.429 Frank R. Harrison: and I I mean when he, when he was telling me about it as I was telling him you were coming on this show.

00:05:51.740 --> 00:06:08.349 Frank R. Harrison: I mean. I had this feeling like in some way I had been there, which I wasn't, obviously, but it's. It's amazing how, when we discuss more about transgenerational trauma, i'm wondering to what degree is there that kind of connection

00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:27.390 Frank R. Harrison: that what brings us all together to talk about addiction, which is our goal, but at the same time to understand that addiction is not just situational, and it's not just because of substance, abuse, disorder. But there is definitely a genetic link and something that sometimes we're quote on, born into without knowing it.

00:06:27.400 --> 00:06:35.230 Frank R. Harrison: And I guess there are triggers that we all experience in life that either make it part of our life or something that we can hopefully,

00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:39.190 Frank R. Harrison: you know, avoid or minimize our impact from.

00:06:39.320 --> 00:06:40.810 Frank R. Harrison: So

00:06:40.890 --> 00:06:44.489 Frank R. Harrison: was I clear, Phyllis, on what the story and events were in Elizabeth today.

00:06:44.500 --> 00:06:55.089 Phyllis Quinlan: I understand the I understand the events. I was unaware, you know at this time of my life. I'm happy to hear that things happened before I was born, because that's That's okay.

00:06:55.100 --> 00:07:13.670 Phyllis Quinlan: But that's an incredible story, and I can only imagine that you know a lot of people were looking over their shoulder and looking up, and

00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:18.219 Phyllis Quinlan: you know, and and just really being nervous about

00:07:18.230 --> 00:07:42.650 Phyllis Quinlan: being living in proximity to newer at that particular period of time. The reason why I can relate to it is back in the Say Eightys. You may remember there was a I believe there's an airline that's no longer an existence anymore. I want to say it's us air, but they had a couple of planes go off the La Bordier, and some of it was done to Isis Snow. Some of it was

00:07:42.670 --> 00:08:01.669 Phyllis Quinlan: was um ah chalked up to Ah, maybe runways not being long enough, which has always been a little bit of a complaint around Laguardia. But I happen to be working in the emergency department with both of those plane crashes, and I know the people around the laguardia area. We didn't just treat people

00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:31.660 Phyllis Quinlan: from the crash itself. But people who came in that were traumatized because they witnessed a crash, saw the crash, or or saw the people, you know, around Grand Central Parkway kind of you know, roaming around and or rescue, you know trucks and and everything else. So I I certainly can understand how traumatic or relate to how traumatic that must have been for people. But i'm so interested, Judy. Thank you for coming on. We have been searching for an authority to someone to help us understand

00:08:31.670 --> 00:08:43.979 Phyllis Quinlan: the concept of addiction things that when it's attributing factors to addiction, we welcome you to the program and really want to hear. You know, What are you sharing with us in that book, white, Black.

00:08:44.280 --> 00:08:45.490 Frank R. Harrison: Well,

00:08:45.500 --> 00:08:53.869 Judy Mandel: thank you very much for having me here. I appreciate it, and I wanted I wanted to spell the idea that i'm an authority.

00:08:54.500 --> 00:09:10.970 Phyllis Quinlan: Um, you know, I've written a a personal story um about in my family, my niece, and in in researching it found to understand trying to understand the complexities of substance use disorder,

00:09:10.980 --> 00:09:21.060 Judy Mandel: and found that they are many, that there are myriad complexities to the condition and the people that suffer with it.

00:09:21.070 --> 00:09:42.070 Judy Mandel: Um! So I want to. I want to say, you know It's a personal story that I hope resonates with people. I I did bring together a lot of tentacles of research that that have helped me, and that I mean, that's the reason that I wrote. It is I had questions, as you know. Why Why did she suffer with substance abuse? Why couldn't she stop? Why couldn't I save her

00:09:42.080 --> 00:10:02.820 Judy Mandel: that those are the questions and what I found is people other people who have loved ones who suffer with substance, use disorder, have the same questions, whether their loved one has recovered or not, or has, as my niece did, overdose and passed away. So

00:10:02.830 --> 00:10:13.690 Judy Mandel: it I think it relates to many people it seems the more I talk to people, the more I understand that this is so widespread that it it impacts everyone.

00:10:13.700 --> 00:10:30.359 Phyllis Quinlan: I I honestly don't know of too many families that are in struggling with a family story, or wandering around wondering about that one family member who, as you say, they could not save or they could not understand.

00:10:30.370 --> 00:10:41.690 Phyllis Quinlan: You know why the relapsing kept happening, and so please share with us your insights, because it's a topic that we need to talk about.

00:10:41.700 --> 00:10:56.579 Frank R. Harrison: Well, as I started to do the research there, and there are some really great books out there, and I would say that in the back of my book is an extensive bibliography of the books that I read to help me understand.

00:10:56.590 --> 00:11:15.449 Judy Mandel: Um! One of the things that helped me a great deal was understanding brain chemistry, and the fact that um brain chemistry really changes, and i'm sure as a nurse. You you understand this totally. Um. When people have used drugs for a long period of time especially, and even

00:11:15.460 --> 00:11:26.360 Judy Mandel: more so if they've started. Young as my niece did. I know she started as a teenager, so it stops their development,

00:11:26.390 --> 00:11:35.350 Judy Mandel: and it also is it makes it so that they can't act on the things that they know they should. I'm. I'm. Trying to just, you know. Say it

00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:46.719 Judy Mandel: in lay language, because that's I think, important. And The The metaphor that I heard that really has resonated with me is that

00:11:46.780 --> 00:12:06.359 Judy Mandel: they know they're careening down a steep cliff, and they keep putting their foot on the break, but the break does not work, and they don't understand why, and that helped me understand, because I know that my niece wanted to stop using drugs. I know she wanted to recover,

00:12:06.370 --> 00:12:22.989 Judy Mandel: and she couldn't she she was not able to. You know. Um! This is one of the questions that people certainly ask. You know why Why could so and so recover? And you know my son or daughter Couldn't. Why, why is it that one person you know can, and one person

00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:32.990 Judy Mandel: cannot. It's also the question, and that I asked was a friend of mine who's a recovering alcoholic, said that

00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:52.559 Judy Mandel: you know she can't have one drink. She'll be closing the bar. Why? Why is it? I can have a glass of wine, but i'm Okay, but she's not. There's because it there are different addictive qualities in people's personalities. That's one thing. So the brain chemistry piece was very important for me to understand.

00:12:52.570 --> 00:13:07.750 Phyllis Quinlan: In addition to I mean, there's so much to talk about. I don't want to to stop, or she was not able to successfully stop for her lifetime. In other words, she may have

00:13:08.190 --> 00:13:26.290 Phyllis Quinlan: it stopped for a while, but it but then relapsed. And this is, despite therapy or rehabilitation programs or family interventions. So, despite best efforts, is really what I want to say, she she could not help but go back and relapse. Is that what i'm hearing

00:13:26.300 --> 00:13:29.329 Judy Mandel: and And you know the the

00:13:29.450 --> 00:13:41.519 Judy Mandel: accessibility of treatment was certainly not there for her. That's one thing I know. She did go to several rehabs. She was in prison for a while,

00:13:41.530 --> 00:14:00.190 Judy Mandel: and so, but there was no help there. There was a very minimal minimal ah rehabilitation program in one of the prisons, and she was transferred to another one in Kentucky, which had nothing for her. So there you are. I mean the things that they're finding now that

00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:17.460 Judy Mandel: have worked for people is is medically assisted treatment, you know soboxone, and you know that's the brand name, I guess, for um, and counseling and social services that can support people to find a life.

00:14:17.470 --> 00:14:28.299 Judy Mandel: Um! That was one of the problems coming out of prison. You can't find a job, and if you find a job it's not a job that you can support yourself or have a place to live.

00:14:28.310 --> 00:14:30.990 Frank R. Harrison: It's. It's a serious, serious problem.

00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:44.290 Frank R. Harrison: We're about to take our first break, but you did mention two important things that we. When we return we'll get into about the brain chemistry. And I guess we also want to understand how much of the trauma of what happened in Elizabeth, New Jersey influenced her addiction

00:14:44.300 --> 00:14:59.799 Frank R. Harrison: that, all being said, please stay tuned to this episode of Frank about Health, which I've entitled White Flag, a story of generational trauma and addiction right here on talk radio, Nyc: and on our talk Radio. Nyc: Youtube Channel.

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00:16:58.830 --> 00:17:00.500 You

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00:17:13.310 --> 00:17:36.250 Frank R. Harrison: welcome back um, Julie, You just mentioned some interesting aspects of the brain, development and brain chemistry that may have played a part in Cheryl's addiction that her struggles, while both in and out of prison. But I know I started the show by talking about the events of that plane. Crash! I gather she was the girl that was burned at age two or three,

00:17:36.260 --> 00:17:42.389 Frank R. Harrison: from the results of the plane crashing into what her apartment, or the building, or the vicinity to where she was.

00:17:42.400 --> 00:18:05.979 Judy Mandel: Well, I I guess I have to let me just back up a little bit. Um, Cheryl Cheryl was the daughter of my sister, who was in that plane crash. So it was her mother, who was very badly burned, and really went through an enormous amount of trauma with fat, and you know, every every um year. She had reconstructive surgery,

00:18:05.990 --> 00:18:19.260 Judy Mandel: you know, for my whole childhood and for hers. And so my my thought about this is that trauma does filter down. I mean there. There have been

00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:37.859 Judy Mandel: studies done about with generations of holocaust victims, which points to this. You know that even two and three generations after there is. There are ramifications of trauma in in people, and it's. It's to the point of um.

00:18:37.870 --> 00:18:54.110 Judy Mandel: It's not actually hereditary, but it's the way the hormones react in in your body with with your genes. So there are animal studies that have, you know, proven this, and it's a scientific study.

00:18:54.120 --> 00:18:59.960 Judy Mandel: Um. And I don't think that any daughter of someone with the extensive

00:18:59.970 --> 00:19:17.500 Judy Mandel: burns and injuries that my sister had could be unscathed by the physical. But it's also the social and the psychological trauma that does filter down, and as much as people don't talk about it.

00:19:17.510 --> 00:19:20.240 Judy Mandel: You know It's it's it's very hard to keep

00:19:20.470 --> 00:19:23.349 Judy Mandel: um pretending that everything is fine

00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:29.589 Judy Mandel: that weighs on people even more So it's this violence of not talking about it,

00:19:29.600 --> 00:19:55.459 Phyllis Quinlan: which is never a healthy thing. So I would love to hear more about your your thoughts about generational trauma and and what's the comparison between You know, trauma that's lived through directly, and trauma. That is, I guess something that's residual and observed from others. So i'm just going to presume, because of the burns that your sister had, that she was disfigured or scarred in some way,

00:19:55.470 --> 00:20:05.589 Phyllis Quinlan: so that had a strike up conversation between your sister and Cheryl at some point. Mommy, Why, you have these scars or things of that nature.

00:20:05.600 --> 00:20:22.380 Phyllis Quinlan: I'm really curious about this. I mean, as you say, there is a triggering of hormones. So yes, there's a fight and flight mechanism inside of all of us that's hormonally meet what we call mediated. But

00:20:22.500 --> 00:20:41.240 Phyllis Quinlan: do you help me understand the generational trauma is it more of an over-identification with what cheryl's over identification with what her mother went through. Is it something that perhaps your sister was just, you know, carrying with her? And

00:20:41.250 --> 00:20:59.979 Phyllis Quinlan: you know, through some sort of unconscious mechanism was imparting some sense of anxiety and trauma residual emotions to her daughter like maybe being overly protective, or you know, help me understand what you mean by by this generational trauma.

00:20:59.990 --> 00:21:18.399 Judy Mandel: Well, you know, I can mostly ah relate to it from you know what I went through. Um, as you know, kind of the the one that was unscathed in my family because I was not in that plane crash, but that didn't that didn't negate the impact that it had on me, and I know that

00:21:18.410 --> 00:21:24.009 Judy Mandel: I said. I believe that my my niece, certainly, you know, was impacted.

00:21:24.020 --> 00:21:42.320 Judy Mandel: It's got to be an an unconscious relation of you know For me it was. I don't think the world's a safe place, you know. Planes fall out of the sky, for heaven's sakes! How can How can everybody? How can it be a safe place? You know it affected my parenting,

00:21:42.330 --> 00:21:45.289 Judy Mandel: and with my son I was very overprotective.

00:21:45.300 --> 00:22:02.179 Phyllis Quinlan: Um, and I don't think that my sister was overprotective with her. She has two daughters. Her other daughter is is still with us, thank God, but there has to be a subconscious relationship of you know,

00:22:02.260 --> 00:22:18.090 Judy Mandel: people reacting to her mother more so than her asking her mother what happened? It's. It's really the reaction of other people, because you know, as a child. You know your mother's your mother, you know. I bet she never questioned it.

00:22:18.100 --> 00:22:29.559 Judy Mandel: I don't think she ever did. I mean she probably heard the story, you know. Finally, when she was a little older. But I don't I doubt she ever questioned it. It's just that she She saw

00:22:29.610 --> 00:22:51.819 Judy Mandel: how people related to her mother. People sometimes were shot. They would turn away, you know. She couldn't get certain jobs because they didn't want her to be out front, you know, in an office, and you know a lot of horrible things like that that. Of course you know stigma about that, so I don't see how I don't see how the family could not be affected by that.

00:22:51.830 --> 00:23:10.739 Phyllis Quinlan: Yeah. So I guess I want you to help me more. Understand the connection between your sister's experience, which I can. I can, you know, I hear, and I can only imagine how difficult it was to navigate her life. Certainly. I mean we we're We're not a culture that does well with differences, let alone just figure out right.

00:23:10.750 --> 00:23:25.389 Phyllis Quinlan: So you know the amount of heartfelt empathy. I'm: I'm feeling right now for her. It must have just been a tremendous challenge. But help me understand the connection between your sister's life experiences,

00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:28.500 Phyllis Quinlan: and why and why you think Cheryl

00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:37.010 Phyllis Quinlan: somehow absorbed some of that? And then, for whatever reason, chose addiction as a maladaptive coping skill,

00:23:37.020 --> 00:23:38.909 Phyllis Quinlan: coping mechanism,

00:23:39.050 --> 00:23:53.530 Judy Mandel: and I i'm not sure I have the exact answers to those questions. Um! What I do know is that there were immediate traumas as well as this generational trauma in Cheryl's life. I know that she was sexually abused by a stepfather.

00:23:53.540 --> 00:24:11.059 Phyllis Quinlan: Um! I know that that's certainly part of the picture. Um! It's It's putting all of these elements together that, you know, create this untenable situation, and not having not having the kind of help that she needed right in the beginning,

00:24:11.070 --> 00:24:14.290 Phyllis Quinlan: when this became a problem when she was a teenager.

00:24:14.300 --> 00:24:25.579 Judy Mandel: Okay, you know. So it's it's It's certainly the generational piece. You know the the immediate trauma of sexual abuse.

00:24:25.620 --> 00:24:34.579 Judy Mandel: The The brain chemistry once that takes place, you know. That's why that's why I talk about the complexities. Because it's no one thing,

00:24:34.800 --> 00:24:36.330 Judy Mandel: it's not one right.

00:24:36.340 --> 00:24:39.789 Judy Mandel: If it could she have recovered if she had

00:24:39.800 --> 00:24:59.689 Frank R. Harrison: medically-assisted treatment even in prison, maybe that would be. That would have been a good thing She was treated for her depression. So there was the depression. Treatment was certainly, you know, that needed to be done as well. There were so many pieces, and also then at the end

00:24:59.700 --> 00:25:04.810 Judy Mandel: she, Nobody narcaned her. There was no Narcan when she overdosed.

00:25:05.030 --> 00:25:09.970 Judy Mandel: Why not I don't know I that's one of the questions I I can't answer either.

00:25:09.980 --> 00:25:20.199 Phyllis Quinlan: So think falling through the corrects, and that that saves people's lives. So when you say I don't know why I didn't. I couldn't save her,

00:25:20.710 --> 00:25:40.200 Phyllis Quinlan: which I imagine is not an uncommon feeling around people who care and feel as though they want to very much rescue their loved ones. And you know, and being a nurse I can certainly identify with the need to to rescue and the need to save, and the need to care for.

00:25:40.210 --> 00:25:43.919 Phyllis Quinlan: What What was it that you thought

00:25:44.660 --> 00:25:50.309 Phyllis Quinlan: interfered with your ability to make that connection with Cheryl in a lasting way.

00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:59.380 Judy Mandel: I don't know that that's true. I mean that is, that was my feeling of feeling guilty. You know that I couldn't save her.

00:25:59.620 --> 00:26:11.799 Phyllis Quinlan: Is that true? With all of the pieces that I've just described? Was I really able to do that? Was that even a possibility? And that actually is the reason I named this book White Flag.

00:26:11.810 --> 00:26:34.710 Judy Mandel: You know It's it. It came from first. It came from the fact that when she was homeless and had nowhere to stay when the when the weather got too cold in Kentucky, which they're not used to. They They opened up the shelters, which is called the White flag. They they used to really wait. They used to raise an actual white flag. Now it's digital,

00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:40.569 Frank R. Harrison: but that's when they open their doors, no matter what. Even if they don't have beds, they'll open their doors.

00:26:40.580 --> 00:26:55.900 Judy Mandel: You know, then, the other part of that is her white flag that you know someone with substance use disorder, needs to wave their own white flag and surrender to. I need help. I need some help to to conquer this,

00:26:55.930 --> 00:26:58.190 Frank R. Harrison: and I don't think that she ever did.

00:26:58.200 --> 00:26:59.690 Phyllis Quinlan: Yeah, she ever did

00:26:59.700 --> 00:27:09.389 Phyllis Quinlan: you? You shared with us that at one point she was in prison, and and and clearly she wasn't using while she was in prison. For however long that was,

00:27:09.400 --> 00:27:10.579 Phyllis Quinlan: who knows?

00:27:10.590 --> 00:27:29.579 Phyllis Quinlan: I don't know that that's true. But please make the assumption Okay, um, that that that that was happening. But you said she didn't get any services while she was in there, and you know one of one of the things that I've come to know. And And again, this is not exactly in the

00:27:29.590 --> 00:27:40.919 Phyllis Quinlan: a great body of knowledge and literature is out there, but it's just with years and years of working with people in the emergency department who, I might see over and over again, who are really struggling with addiction.

00:27:40.930 --> 00:27:48.350 Phyllis Quinlan: I had one gentleman explained to me, because we had this conversation, and he happened to be

00:27:49.610 --> 00:27:52.639 Phyllis Quinlan: clean, not using at the time

00:27:52.730 --> 00:28:02.890 Phyllis Quinlan: he came in for a different reason, and it was one of the first times I saw him and and worked with him because he wasn't coming out. He wasn't overdosing he wasn't detoxing.

00:28:02.900 --> 00:28:05.250 Phyllis Quinlan: He actually was coming in for something else.

00:28:05.330 --> 00:28:10.320 Phyllis Quinlan: I started this conversation with him because he was in a different program, and He said

00:28:10.330 --> 00:28:27.090 Phyllis Quinlan: that that the therapy was really helping him, because what he came to discover was There's a difference between not using and being sober, and that the not using was not having the chemical or the substance in your body, and the cascading effects of that,

00:28:27.100 --> 00:28:32.820 Phyllis Quinlan: but, being sober, had to do with organized clear thinking.

00:28:33.620 --> 00:28:40.390 Phyllis Quinlan: He took my breath away when he shared that, because I thought it was so insightful that

00:28:40.400 --> 00:29:00.539 Phyllis Quinlan: he said that that's part of the problem is that you may be clean, but it doesn't make you sober, and it's not until you are able to get the help. You need the mental health. You need to walk things back to help you engage in and help your choices and health, your coughing skills, and you stop having the disordered thinking

00:29:01.470 --> 00:29:08.040 Phyllis Quinlan: that then can give you the greatest chance of recovery that's sustainable.

00:29:08.430 --> 00:29:19.789 Phyllis Quinlan: And I just to this day I mean that's so many years ago that that I had that conversation with him, but to this day it stays with me.

00:29:19.800 --> 00:29:23.149 Phyllis Quinlan: So even when you know um,

00:29:23.320 --> 00:29:42.069 Phyllis Quinlan: you know, I see people who are struggling with just even anxiety and or denial, or some personality challenges some neurosis that they're dealing with. You know It's that it's hard to perhaps get them to let go of that because it's not so much the behavior. It's the thinking

00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:48.750 Phyllis Quinlan: right, I guess, associated with That's absolutely true, and it's just a remarkable insight for me.

00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:59.889 Frank R. Harrison: We're about to take our second break, but we're definitely on the cusp of something, and I definitely want to reflect off of what you both were just discussing in terms of the series of traumas that Cheryl had gone through until

00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:15.569 Frank R. Harrison: until the point at which she passed On that all being said, please stay tuned to this special episode of Frank about health. As we discuss a story of generational trauma and addiction right here on talk radio in Myc and Youtube, our Youtube Channel as well.

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00:32:00.970 --> 00:32:04.430 you.

00:32:04.860 --> 00:32:06.050 You

00:32:15.050 --> 00:32:44.050 Frank R. Harrison: welcome back now, Judy, you definitely were describing, I guess, a whole series of not just the initial trauma that we were discussing, which was a plane crash, but trauma of sexual abuse, the trauma being incarcerated, the trauma of being homeless, the trauma of dealing with her depression, even though she was taking medication. But one other fundamental thing that I guess is through the the whole threat of her life has been the whole way like you mentioned earlier that a lack of communicating

00:32:44.060 --> 00:32:46.710 Frank R. Harrison: the events that occurred in Elizabeth,

00:32:46.720 --> 00:33:15.920 Frank R. Harrison: and and just sending it out with very cryptic ideas and notions as events would come up where people were not wanting to engage with your sister because of her disfigurement, or probably Ah! Cheryl felt the burden of what it was like to try to explain why that was if she was pushed on to do so, and having probably discomfort or or triggering reactions, because of not knowing what to say, maybe. And then, of course, as you mentioned

00:33:15.930 --> 00:33:26.469 Frank R. Harrison: brain chemistry, and whatever was not properly adjusted as she was developing herself, I mean, It seems as though she was born into

00:33:26.710 --> 00:33:44.589 Frank R. Harrison: a life of traumatic events, and it's unfortunate that maybe when you bring up the white flag issue, that's where she was not able to know when to do it, or even how to do it. If there was a time to be able to face her challenges or her demons, and therefore try to maintain her recovery.

00:33:44.600 --> 00:34:00.889 Frank R. Harrison: And I guess, like when I was reading your book, you have a chapter called White Flag, Your white flag. I gather you also. Now we're dealing with grief and your own residual trauma from feeling guilty for not being there in the way that you could have been. Not that it was your

00:34:00.900 --> 00:34:09.889 Frank R. Harrison: ability to do so, because I gather, like what Phyllis was talking about that that man that talked about the difference between using and being sober,

00:34:09.900 --> 00:34:10.750 Frank R. Harrison: and

00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:11.590 it is

00:34:11.600 --> 00:34:28.750 Frank R. Harrison: you really have to deal with the addiction on your own. You have to somehow get the resources, and whatever. I don't know boundaries or knowledge that can maintain your your resilience when you're dealing with that, and I guess one of the downfalls for most

00:34:28.760 --> 00:34:44.789 Frank R. Harrison: families suffering with family members and loved ones with addiction is, they feel this sense of responsibility, that it's kind of forced upon them in some way, but it's not really their responsibility and differentiating between that is in itself.

00:34:44.800 --> 00:35:04.260 Judy Mandel: Yeah, I mean they Now they they do talk about Ah dual diagnosis treatment that I'm: I'm: sure you know you're familiar with, and it's not just treating. You know the substance. Use disorder. It's treating what led to the substance. Use disorder, and that is the counseling that

00:35:04.270 --> 00:35:21.280 Frank R. Harrison: I believe people need is you have to treat it on on two different levels. I mean, you can not just treat substance, use disorder on its own. Of course it becomes its own issue once it's in place. But there are things that lead up to it that need care.

00:35:21.290 --> 00:35:32.729 Judy Mandel: And um, Phyllis, as you were talking about the difference between being clean and sober. That's certainly it. And the counseling is something people absolutely need.

00:35:32.740 --> 00:35:49.389 Judy Mandel: The Ah, the thing that um, the medical assistant treatment helps is that it lets them be able to hear it, you know, and be able to to take it in and and use that counseling, because otherwise they may not be able to.

00:35:49.400 --> 00:36:01.690 Phyllis Quinlan: Yeah, I mean one of the other factors that I think you're alluding to is that the person who is struggling with the addiction part of that addictive personality is manipulation,

00:36:01.700 --> 00:36:14.170 Phyllis Quinlan: and it's it's a way of Ah! In some ways justifying the usage, or justifying the starting or justifying the relapse. But there is a manipulative

00:36:14.180 --> 00:36:22.769 Phyllis Quinlan: peace to that addictive personality, and I think it's one of the reasons why residential treatments

00:36:23.210 --> 00:36:29.500 Phyllis Quinlan: have a fair amount of effectiveness. It's because there is a lot of group therapy

00:36:30.060 --> 00:36:36.940 Phyllis Quinlan: given in those those, those those organizations, or those therapy centers

00:36:36.950 --> 00:37:03.729 Phyllis Quinlan: where you're being held accountable to truth by people who know when you're trying to pull the wool over their eyes because they they're good at it themselves. When when you're trying to go, I I would think that if you're trying to go to therapy with your family, that the addictive, the manipulative piece, the pulling at the heart strings, the trying to get you to own their their behavior, or get you to own some part of their decision making, which is really not

00:37:03.740 --> 00:37:24.760 Phyllis Quinlan: correct, or, you know, holding things accountable. But when you're in a group area and you're there for a finite amount of time, but twenty, eight days. Whatever the average therapy stay is, you have roles, you have rules, you have responsibility. You have structure in your life that you are not used to

00:37:24.770 --> 00:37:44.640 Phyllis Quinlan: um being held accountable to, and it's a real way for you to be able to be to have your triggers pushed, but not have your substance available. Therefore you have to deal and cope in a very different way, and with a supportive group who understands every step of it,

00:37:44.650 --> 00:38:01.510 Phyllis Quinlan: and it's not going to be manipulated, manipulated by this is too hard, or this is to this, but they're going to say we know it's too hard. We struggle, too, you know, and and and the manipulation, or the that piece of that personality,

00:38:01.520 --> 00:38:07.800 Phyllis Quinlan: I think, is not as successful in those groups as it might be with family members,

00:38:08.070 --> 00:38:17.099 Phyllis Quinlan: you know, because that that connection is not there. They're They're a little bit more objective. At least this is what I understand is part of the

00:38:17.990 --> 00:38:31.079 Phyllis Quinlan: the benefit of going into a residential rehab center for a period of time. It's that the experience is far more structured and

00:38:31.230 --> 00:38:35.300 Phyllis Quinlan: tough love, if you will, and it might be if you're not,

00:38:35.310 --> 00:38:48.989 Phyllis Quinlan: and it works for some people, and it doesn't work for other people that's right, and I think what what they're finding now is that if it's coupled with, you know um medically assisted treatment

00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:57.869 Phyllis Quinlan: that has worked even better. So I think you're I think you're absolutely right. That that's an important component

00:38:57.880 --> 00:39:25.959 Phyllis Quinlan: of dealing with this. It's it on the other end. When they get out of that residential program they need help on the outside like to recreate their life and and find find a job and find a place to live, and, you know, be able to take care of themselves. So there's I think there's a There are a lot of little prongs that they can help me definitely, and I think you know I've heard people say to me. I've been in the emergency department where people will come in and

00:39:25.970 --> 00:39:34.649 Phyllis Quinlan: and we're the last kind of safe place between them in the streets at times, and they'll come in with some

00:39:35.050 --> 00:39:46.190 Phyllis Quinlan: some generalized complaint that will get them to come into the emergency department, and you just get a six sense after a while that there really isn't a medical reality to what they're sharing with you.

00:39:46.200 --> 00:39:53.560 Phyllis Quinlan: And you get to a professional point and a relationship point that you could say, Ok, I hear what you're saying. Your vital signs are normal.

00:39:54.450 --> 00:39:55.649 Phyllis Quinlan: What's going on?

00:39:55.660 --> 00:40:02.920 Phyllis Quinlan: And the person says, if i'm out on the street tonight i'm going to score, and I just got out, and I'm like, Well, then, you're going to stay right here with me.

00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:18.790 Phyllis Quinlan: Okay, So here are the rules. Yeah, stay in my my in my waiting room, you know, and and you have to do this. And here's the ex, the behavior. I expect i'll get your cup of coffee in the morning, and i'm really glad you made the choice to come. Spend the night here.

00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:34.460 Phyllis Quinlan: Wonderful that you did that, you know. So most emergency departments will do that. We understand that. But it's again a very tough thing to go back into the same neighborhood around the same temptations.

00:40:34.470 --> 00:40:39.289 Phyllis Quinlan: That's why staying in meetings and keeping to that support system.

00:40:39.300 --> 00:40:54.380 Phyllis Quinlan: Yeah, as challenging as that might be is so very, very right. Right? Um, You know the the um going to meetings you you talked about, you know, going to some meetings. Um, you know I um one thing that

00:40:54.390 --> 00:41:13.589 Phyllis Quinlan: that has always bothered me as my niece wouldn't go to meetings. She would go to a twelve step program, and much of it was because it was Christian based. It was based. And we're Jewish, and it did not. She couldn't accept it. Um, I know there are some programs that are, you know, more secular.

00:41:13.600 --> 00:41:17.589 Phyllis Quinlan: Yes, there's not that many, and these, you know those are. These are the free ones.

00:41:17.600 --> 00:41:18.890 Judy Mandel: Yes, that you can do.

00:41:18.900 --> 00:41:26.689 Judy Mandel: Yeah, which works for people. Some people. So that's that's good. But there was nothing. There's nothing for her,

00:41:26.700 --> 00:41:39.530 Phyllis Quinlan: you know. That's a real important point to bring up Judy, that you know we're. We're far more sensitive today. And again, you know it's too late for your your niece

00:41:39.540 --> 00:41:55.290 Phyllis Quinlan: of being more inclusive and diverse, and understanding that there there is a way to tap into reminding people that they are part of something greater than themselves, without having a religious inference that could be potentially alienated.

00:41:55.800 --> 00:41:56.740 Judy Mandel: Yeah, it.

00:41:56.750 --> 00:42:11.120 Judy Mandel: And even even in prison, that's all. They had was a twelfth step order, and she said, you know, and I kept asking her when she, you know we would talk. You know why don't you try that it's not for me. Yeah, Judy, That's just not for me. I'm. I'm Good. I'm fine,

00:42:11.250 --> 00:42:21.889 Phyllis Quinlan: you know. Right the the usual lament. I'm. Fine. I'm going to be fine. That that's that. Life is over for me. I'm not going back to it. I heard it over and over again,

00:42:21.900 --> 00:42:25.889 Phyllis Quinlan: as you say manipulative behavior. Yes,

00:42:25.900 --> 00:42:35.709 Frank R. Harrison: so I want to ask you then, Judy, on that note from the way I read the book from cover to cover, and we see her go through her whole lifespan of various traumatic

00:42:35.860 --> 00:42:40.479 Frank R. Harrison: milestones, if you will, when you say that the core

00:42:40.550 --> 00:42:49.089 Frank R. Harrison: illness that she carried through her life was that of just addiction, or really that was the symptom of traumatic disorder.

00:42:49.100 --> 00:43:07.790 Frank R. Harrison: That was Jeff definitely it's a symptom. It's a self-medication. It's what I believe Yeah, you know, I mean She was diagnosed with with depression, so that I was untreated for years. So you know that was certainly part of it. It it's almost a snowball effect

00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:19.139 Judy Mandel: of conditions, so that the substance use disorder. I bet it is the case for most people is the symptom of other other problems.

00:43:19.430 --> 00:43:28.909 Frank R. Harrison: I guess it can be. I don't know if it's inferred or implied that people who are really suffering from substance, abuse, disorder, as a symptom

00:43:29.190 --> 00:43:48.829 Frank R. Harrison: may not have the likelihood of full recovery unless they really have the best support system out there. It's like what they say about people who are twenty years sober from alcoholics anonymous. They go to meetings, and they have that ongoing support system to keep the symptom at bay, because it is part of a greater issue,

00:43:49.060 --> 00:43:52.990 Judy Mandel: you know, and they have to be committed to it. They have to want it. They have to you,

00:43:53.090 --> 00:44:04.490 Frank R. Harrison: as I say, surrender to it. They need the help in our society to be available.

00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:04.990 Phyllis Quinlan: Yes,

00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:21.390 Phyllis Quinlan: that's been the biggest issue. You're so very right, Judy, because even with the twelve-step program, I think it's the first one that says, I acknowledge that i'm powerless over this substance, and that is a very cold, hard fact, too.

00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:38.790 Phyllis Quinlan: They'll keep your piece with, and, as you say, surrender to. But it is really the first step is to understand that this is nothing you you can control, and it's the delusional thinking. The non-solver thinking that makes you think you can, which is why you go back and try again

00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:39.830 right

00:44:39.840 --> 00:45:08.310 Frank R. Harrison: now. We're going to have to surrender to our next and final break. But that being said, everyone, please look at Amazon, dot com for this book. White Flag comes out in stores, or comes out on Amazon October first, but their pre-orders allowed acceptable. I could not put this book down. I highly recommend it and We will return to this episode of Frank about health. We will talk about another book that has definitely been the trigger for this as well as where we go from here with Judy

00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:13.579 Frank R. Harrison: and beyond all right. That all being said, stay tuned, I will be back in a few.

00:45:16.690 --> 00:45:26.409 Everybody. It's coming, Dean, and the non-profit sector, Connecticut, coming at you from my attic each week you're on top radio that my C: I hosted program the

00:45:26.420 --> 00:45:40.650 non-profits in contrast each and every day, and it's my focus and open amplify their message and tell their story. Listen each week at ten A. M. Eastern stand in time until eleven. Am it right here. On operating,

00:45:41.140 --> 00:45:46.769 you may have many unanswered questions regarding your health.

00:45:46.780 --> 00:46:02.839 Are you looking to live a health in your lifestyle? Do you have a desire to learn more about mental health, and enhance your quality of life? Or do you just want to participate in self-understanding and awareness I'm Frank R Harrison, host of Francophone health and each Thursday? I will tackle these questions and work to enlighten you.

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00:46:58.720 --> 00:47:02.779 You

00:47:11.990 --> 00:47:13.290 Frank R. Harrison: welcome back.

00:47:13.300 --> 00:47:30.499 Frank R. Harrison: Okay, Um. So Judy White Flag is a memoir, as you mentioned, but we already had alluded to that. It was the impetus to an initial memoir replacement. Child, would you like me to share with the audience and viewers a little bit about it, and how it also influenced your writing website?

00:47:30.510 --> 00:47:46.889 Judy Mandel: Sure, sure! Well replacement trials, the the story about my family, and how a clean crash in one thousand nine hundred and fifty two, as you mentioned before, really changed all of our lives. It killed the the plane crash ignited a fire.

00:47:46.900 --> 00:47:58.259 Judy Mandel: Um that killed my seven-year-old sister at the time and badly injured my two-year-old sister Linda, who was Cheryl's mother.

00:47:58.440 --> 00:48:08.710 Judy Mandel: So that was the beginning of that. My mother basically rolled my sister Linda down on the front steps to the front door

00:48:08.790 --> 00:48:22.090 Judy Mandel: and the door stuck, and she had to run downstairs to open the door, and strangely, a passerby was there and grabbed the baby who was

00:48:22.100 --> 00:48:35.840 Judy Mandel: burning, and I wouldn't let my mother back into the house, because he saw that it was fruitless for her to go back in, and just she was trying to struggle to go save her other daughter. And

00:48:35.850 --> 00:48:46.279 Judy Mandel: just as she turned that that second floor just collapsed, So you know it did. He did save her life, which, of course, saved my life because I wouldn't be here if that was the case.

00:48:46.370 --> 00:49:06.330 Judy Mandel: Um! So that that book is really about um my understanding through writing the book. I was a year into writing the book before I came across the term replacement Child syndrome, which is an actual condition that was was coined in one thousand nine hundred and sixty four

00:49:06.340 --> 00:49:25.939 Judy Mandel: um by Ah, you know, some like a couple of psychiatrists that were doing research into holocaust victims and and their families. Um. And so the replacement child syndrome, which I like to now call a condition is when you're born because another died.

00:49:25.950 --> 00:49:34.389 Judy Mandel: That's the basic idea behind it, although it's a little bit expanded now, and I found through, you know, a lot of

00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:51.380 Judy Mandel: you know reading about that that many of the features of that condition related to me that it was like me, you know um difficulty with identification and understanding who you are, and being very protective.

00:49:51.390 --> 00:49:59.930 Judy Mandel: There are a lot of features of it that identified with it. So I started to do more research about that. So that's how that

00:49:59.980 --> 00:50:06.349 Judy Mandel: that book came about was from those those that plane crash

00:50:06.790 --> 00:50:24.919 Judy Mandel: and understanding that it affected my whole family, and it was in a lot of cases it was still the silence of not talking about it. You know we could be. My parents always said my sister could do anything. She was fine. Um! Nobody ever got any counseling back in that those times, so

00:50:24.930 --> 00:50:31.019 Judy Mandel: we didn't have the the benefit of that which would have probably helped all of us quite a bit,

00:50:31.030 --> 00:50:32.449 Frank R. Harrison: I would think.

00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:51.719 Judy Mandel: Um. You know how it relates to your your relationships. You know my father was um, you know I don't think he ever really forgave me for being being here when his first born was not. I don't think he ever really could come to groups with that. So he was very distant with me

00:50:51.730 --> 00:50:58.940 Judy Mandel: that case, so that had a big impact on my life. And you know how I relate to everyone.

00:50:59.500 --> 00:51:28.660 Frank R. Harrison: But from what I've seen so far it has had a very big, positive impact. Especially, I think one of the chapters in your current book by flag, says that your addictive personality made you write the book so you can really delve into getting the answers to all of these questions. Kind of better understand the resolution of what you could or couldn't do for Cheryl when she passed on, and I guess that's the pro and pro of addiction from that perspective. But

00:51:28.670 --> 00:51:36.989 Frank R. Harrison: it's very interesting, because I can see, Phyllis how this really encompasses addiction as a major symptom of mental illness.

00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:41.090 Phyllis Quinlan: You know, I think the message in the book is so powerful, and you know

00:51:41.100 --> 00:51:51.460 Phyllis Quinlan: I know, cheryl you know it. It always seems that the time we have together always seems to fly, you know, even though it's you know a good forty-five plus minutes. It just seems to go,

00:51:51.470 --> 00:52:04.519 Phyllis Quinlan: I so quickly. But you know, in this last segment that we have, is there any one thing in the book, any one piece of insight, wisdom,

00:52:04.570 --> 00:52:15.490 Phyllis Quinlan: concern that you want to share with our listeners, to help them either start to come to terms with their own addictive personalities or

00:52:15.500 --> 00:52:21.339 Phyllis Quinlan: themselves off the hook because they can't be responsible for another person's life

00:52:21.350 --> 00:52:45.630 Phyllis Quinlan: or um, you know, help them work through whatever they are struggling with. Do you have. You know, just a couple of of pieces of wisdom that you gained a lot of your research in your travels. Well, I really think that my the main purpose, I think, in this book, now that I think about it, is having readers who have love, especially if they have loved ones who have substance, use disorder

00:52:45.640 --> 00:52:52.060 Judy Mandel: to not forget who they are, to remember that this is this is still the same. You know,

00:52:52.080 --> 00:53:03.389 Judy Mandel: brother or sister, or father or mother that you love. This is the same person, and to treat them like they have a disease like diabetes,

00:53:03.400 --> 00:53:22.759 Judy Mandel: you know, and to look at them in that way that I remember. You know one um interview I had with someone who used to be um addicted to a substance, and she said, You know what got me through was my mother said to me, You're not your addiction. You're still you're still you

00:53:23.100 --> 00:53:23.890 Frank R. Harrison: and i'm right.

00:53:23.900 --> 00:53:28.450 Judy Mandel: I think if people can keep that in mind, and let them know they're loved.

00:53:28.470 --> 00:53:33.879 Judy Mandel: Be open to helping them in the way that they can be helped when they're ready

00:53:33.890 --> 00:53:37.600 Frank R. Harrison: right right, and keep and keep them alive until they are.

00:53:37.960 --> 00:53:40.369 Frank R. Harrison: It's alive. In whatever way

00:53:41.330 --> 00:54:01.020 Frank R. Harrison: this has made you become Basically, an advocate, even though you have a history being a reporter and other things. You're when you say that your life has amounted to becoming primarily an advocate for people with with various types of mental health related issues, but things that you definitely

00:54:01.060 --> 00:54:09.989 Frank R. Harrison: okay, I know. But prior to our talk you mentioned that there is some kind of advocacy programming. Having happening this weekend in Dc. Would you like to share that?

00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:29.539 Judy Mandel: There is a There is a march going on in Washington on Saturday, the twenty fourth coming up um by an organization which is trying to make some changes in legislation that will definitely help um. People with substance use disorder, and they're called Truth Farm. It's so. Ph. A. R. M.

00:54:29.550 --> 00:54:46.370 Judy Mandel: And if people go to Ah Truth Farm or org, they'll see. You know the information about that, and, you know, be able to join the march. Um, I know they're they're gonna have a memorial service, you know. Memorial for all the people lost to addiction and opioid use.

00:54:46.660 --> 00:54:48.149 Frank R. Harrison: Amazing.

00:54:48.210 --> 00:54:55.590 Frank R. Harrison: Well, I basically. Know what Phyllis said. Look, I just got the preview. We have three minutes to end.

00:54:55.600 --> 00:54:59.689 Frank R. Harrison: We are definitely having you back next week.

00:54:59.700 --> 00:55:01.189 Frank R. Harrison: I'd love to do that. I'd love to.

00:55:01.200 --> 00:55:15.140 Frank R. Harrison: Yeah. There are more questions that I I know that both of us and I have related to addiction and white flag, but we also want to explore replacement, child, and so let's let's consider it not. Oprah's Book Club, But, Frank about help.

00:55:15.420 --> 00:55:34.060 Frank R. Harrison: We'll just have a a summary of both books. We'll probably flesh out some of the content, and discuss it, and and promote the value of especially this white flag will be out in stores two days after the fact, so that all being said, ladies and gentlemen stay tuned for next week, as we have part. Two of our

00:55:34.170 --> 00:55:43.599 Frank R. Harrison: broad discussions with Judy Mandel. As I said earlier, this resonates with me personally basically because my father

00:55:43.610 --> 00:56:13.479 Frank R. Harrison: witnessed these three plane crashes as a child, and he only had conversations with me about them months ago, not even knowing that I was going to be doing a show on addiction with a member of that event that will not direct directly in the disaster, but obviously has written two profound books about addiction and mental health issues that stemmed from those events. So um, We will have that next week tomorrow on talk radio, Dot Nyc: You'll have your Friday state of shows, which are

00:56:13.490 --> 00:56:33.810 Frank R. Harrison: of philanthropy and focus and always writing. And of course, anyone who has not had a chance to see this episode. It'll be Concord again during the weekend, and sometime next week, and of course, on our Youtube Channel, You'll be able to find it or replay it, because I know there are many more questions that we're going to have to follow up on

00:56:33.820 --> 00:56:54.740 Phyllis Quinlan: Phyllis. I think we succeeded in having, uh the best possible addiction show that we can really have a nice open discussion about, but having to get into the clinical aspects of interventions.

00:56:54.870 --> 00:57:23.870 Frank R. Harrison: Exactly Exactly so, ladies, and up first of all, duty. Thank you for being here. We will see you next week. It is a pleasure being with you, and I will call both of you Um, literally let me log off, but simultaneously to everyone out there, if you have further questions for Judy that you would like to share from this show, or in in advance of next week's episode. Please email me at Frank R. Harrison, one at Gmail Dot Com.

00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:31.089 Frank R. Harrison: It's taken up my website, Wwf. Frank R. Harrison, Com and Judy. Do you have a website? People can reach you at

00:57:31.100 --> 00:57:36.489 Frank R. Harrison: it's Judy Mandel and

00:57:36.510 --> 00:57:39.239 Judy Mandel: Dot com right? Just my name, right?

00:57:39.320 --> 00:57:40.189 Frank R. Harrison: It's perfect

00:57:40.200 --> 00:57:50.390 Frank R. Harrison: perfect. And for those of you interested in learning more about the the rally in Dc. Again. Please go to the website,

00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:51.869 Frank R. Harrison: not for the you.

00:57:51.900 --> 00:58:02.090 Frank R. Harrison: Okay, Truth Farm Org, and we'll be back next week. Thank you for staying. Tuned right here on. Talk radio that Nyc. And our Youtube Channel See you next week.

00:58:02.100 --> 00:58:03.319 Phyllis Quinlan: Thank you, Judy,

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