[NEW EPISODE] How to Answer the Call

WHAT WILL THE AUDIENCE LEARN?

Listeners will gain awareness of their own privileges, and how they can embrace them for the benefit of the collective. The audience will hear personal experiences of being marginalized in one social sphere while being put on a pedestal in another, and learn how to recognize their privilege when it shows up.

EPISODE SUMMARY:

We must be consistent in reminding ourselves of the significance of intersectionality. The systems and ideologies that run the world took centuries to construct and continue to develop and interact in their nuanced ways. Therefore the symptoms of these constructs cannot be assumed to be any less nuanced. ⁣

⁣Identifying with a marginalized community does not negate the reality of belonging to another, privileged demographic. For instance, black men still benefit from male privilege despite their blackness.

Rev. Dr. TLC and her guest Jennifer Brown will discuss how privilege calls us to activism. Jennifer will share how being a gay woman does not stop her from acknowledging and using her white privilege to challenge racism. We are all in a position to stand up for someone else. How do we answer the call?⁣ 

https://jenniferbrownconsulting.com

‍

EPISODE QUOTE: We are all uniquely designed to do the work. We just have to find our way of doing it. 

Tune in for this important conversation at TalkRadio.nyc or watch the Facebook Livestream by Clicking Here.

Show Notes

Segment 1

Rev. Dr. TLC invites listeners to a guided meditation before the show. She talks about her visit to the Harriet Tubman Byway Railroad in Cambridge, Maryland. She encourages her listeners to check out the center if they are ever in the area. Rev. Dr. TLC shares her admiration for Harriet Tubman and informs her listeners about Harriet’s journey to freedom. Rev. Dr. TLC discusses how Harriet went back for her family, but they were too afraid of the risks, so she decided to save other enslaved people. Because Harriet was determined to accomplish her goal, she was able to free 70 people in the process. Rev. Dr. TLC compares Harriet’s determination to today’s fight and wonder’s how much can be accomplished if we stay committed like Harriet Tubman. Rev. Dr. TLC shares the background of her guest Jennifer Brown before going to break.

Segment 2

Rev. Dr. TLC welcomes her guest Jennifer Brown. She asks Jennifer what led her to the work of equity and inclusion. Jennifer was a trained singer who sadly lost her voice. While trying to find other outlets to use her voice, she was also coming out personally and professionally. Jennifer says the other identities informed her LGBTQ experience. While sharing the journey to finding her voice, Jennifer explains how she became an activist for LGBTQ in the workplace, which started her journey to inclusion. She realized that she was to be the voice for people who lost theirs. Rev. Dr. TLC explains that there are different ways to answer the call; you just have to find an approach that is right for you.

Segment 3

Rev. Dr. TLC asks Jennifer about the deflections and denial her clients tend to have in the beginning of the process. She explains how resistance shows up in the workplace. Jennifer believes it stems from a fear of change or losing power and control. She says there is an exponential benefit to sharing power and including a diverse group of individuals in the workplace. Rev. Dr. TLC and Jennifer discuss what it is like doing this work as a woman of color and a white woman. Rev. Dr. TLC says she is not given the same opportunities as her white counterparts when in reality, she has not only the credentials but also the experience. Rev. Dr. TLC asks about Jennifer’s appearance and the privilege of appearing as a white heterosexual female. Rev. Dr. TLC and Jennifer discuss the comparison between gay people and people of color regarding social injustice.

Segment 4

Jennifer explains how she wants to refrain from the concept of privilege. She says to stop looking at privilege as the haves and have not but instead look at it as a way where the conversation could be inclusive instead of ostracizing the privilege from the conversation. You can find more information on Jennifer at JenniferBrownConsulting. Jennifer has a podcast The Will To Change. You can look for Jennifer’s latest book, How To Be An Inclusive Leader.

Transcript

00:00:56.940 --> 00:01:09.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hi and welcome to the dismantle racism show where our goal is to educate eradicate and to dismantle racism, we really do want to create a world where racial.

00:01:09.360 --> 00:01:20.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: equity is the norm we're going to begin our show, as always, to take a moment just to Center ourselves to enter into this space.

00:01:20.610 --> 00:01:33.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so I invite you, if you were to close your eyes, if you feel comfortable to plant your feet on the floor, or the grounds, wherever you may be, and just take a moment to find your breath.

00:01:35.220 --> 00:01:37.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and breathe in and out.

00:01:38.850 --> 00:01:42.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And tune into that which gives you life.

00:01:44.370 --> 00:02:01.860 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Just breathe in and out recognizing that your breath is your divine wisdom it's your sacred intelligence it's that thing that prompts you to manifest your greatness, while you help others to do the same.

00:02:03.330 --> 00:02:11.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So just breathe in and out connecting with your source, whatever that sources for you.

00:02:12.570 --> 00:02:13.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Connecting.

00:02:15.030 --> 00:02:15.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: With life.

00:02:17.730 --> 00:02:22.590 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Remind yourself that you are love and you are loved.

00:02:23.820 --> 00:02:27.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: unconditionally and divinely created.

00:02:29.760 --> 00:02:37.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathing in and out understanding that you have the power to change the status quo.

00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:41.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You are uniquely designed.

00:02:42.810 --> 00:02:44.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To offer your gifts to the world.

00:02:47.130 --> 00:02:50.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so breathe in and out.

00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:52.860 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: connecting with who you are.

00:02:55.920 --> 00:02:58.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Just breathe in and out.

00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:07.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: understanding that the power of one contributes to the power of community.

00:03:10.230 --> 00:03:15.360 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe in and out, knowing that we are all inter connected.

00:03:16.710 --> 00:03:18.900 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And we are powerful beyond belief.

00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:23.310 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So take a deep breath in.

00:03:25.050 --> 00:03:28.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: sigh it out unless began.

00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:39.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I recently had the opportunity to visit the Harriet tubman underground railroad by way.

00:03:40.230 --> 00:04:01.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I want to encourage you that if you are ever in Cambridge Maryland or anywhere in that area, please make sure that you visit this visiting Center and actually there are routes along the way, that tell you a little bit about Harry its journey from Maryland to Philadelphia.

00:04:02.940 --> 00:04:14.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i've always admired Harriet tubman I always admired her inner knowing that she in fact was not meant to be enslaved I admired her her strength.

00:04:14.490 --> 00:04:28.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: her courage her commitment for freedom for all, not just for herself and what this trip did, for me, was it just solidified for me the deep appreciation that I have for her.

00:04:28.770 --> 00:04:35.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And for what I call our sacred intelligence that inner knowing that directs our path.

00:04:35.550 --> 00:04:45.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But I want to just share with you about this window that I gained into what happened to what she in fact dealt with during her time.

00:04:45.660 --> 00:04:57.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You see Harriet believe that freedom was a birthright and she couldn't rest until she freed other people Harriet got to freedom and she looked around and she said, wait a minute.

00:04:58.770 --> 00:05:14.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: My mother is still enslaved my brothers are still enslaved her father was actually a free man so Harriet knew, even though she had traveled through a dangerous territory to get the freedom.

00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:35.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: She couldn't rest that she was free so she went back and got her family and, interestingly enough, the first time she went back her brothers were too afraid to travel with her, but what it area do she decided that they couldn't come along with her, she would take other people.

00:05:36.630 --> 00:05:40.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: same thing happened here, he had gotten married before she ran for freedom.

00:05:41.730 --> 00:05:46.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And when she returned to get her husband he had married someone else.

00:05:47.400 --> 00:05:56.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: now understand this, she indeed was crushed as any of us would be because life circumstances often get in the way of the work that we're doing.

00:05:57.690 --> 00:06:13.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: However, she decided if he wasn't coming she would still free other folks she didn't get caught up in the things that were going on around her, she stayed true to the course and as a result.

00:06:13.710 --> 00:06:22.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: She helped free over 70 people on the TRIPS that she took going back and forth, and then after that.

00:06:23.760 --> 00:06:27.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Harriet still didn't rest she works for the military.

00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:47.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: She was a suffragist she was a nurse, and what I want to say about her working for the military during her time there she actually helped lead a militia group that freed over 700 people.

00:06:48.240 --> 00:07:09.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Can you imagine this five foot black woman who was born into a system of enslavement, who said no, I will not tolerate this, this one woman is responsible for freeing that many people because she was committed and because she stayed the course.

00:07:11.520 --> 00:07:29.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So I wonder about those of us who are doing this work, those of us who say that we want to dismantle racism, those of us who say that we want to create a world where racial equity and equity in general exists for everyone.

00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:44.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How do we stay the course because our lives are different because of Harriet tubman and I want to just say our lives, all of our lives it doesn't matter our color it's different because of Harriet tubman.

00:07:45.630 --> 00:08:01.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because you heard me say that she was also a suffragist she could have said, like Susan B Anthony who was of suffragists who was concerned about women's rights and I applaud her for that, but she didn't understand the intersexuality.

00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:15.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: She didn't understand that if she fought for enslaved people if she were also an abolitionist when we gather together as a group we are more powerful.

00:08:16.050 --> 00:08:27.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: There is an intersection ality, and so I understand when people say I am working with this particular group over here and so i'm focused on that group I get it.

00:08:28.170 --> 00:08:42.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i'm focused on dismantling racism, but I also have to look at the intersection ality that's why you hear me talk about other things like gun control or you might hear me talk about women's rights and abortion rates.

00:08:43.590 --> 00:08:46.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because we're not separated from one another.

00:08:47.250 --> 00:09:02.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so I want you to be encouraged, and I want you to believe that change is possible because when I stood outside of the dorchester county City Hall, where the enslaved people were brought there to be sold.

00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:14.910 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: When I stood in that place what I realized is that carry it saw something that the rest of the world could not see she saw this day.

00:09:15.540 --> 00:09:30.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And that's what it means to have faith that we can change a system, we may not see complete racial equity in our day and age, but it will come one day, things are different than they were in 1865.

00:09:31.950 --> 00:09:33.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because Harriet could see it.

00:09:34.890 --> 00:09:44.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: period believed it, and so I want to invite you to think about what is it that you see what future do you envision.

00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:57.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What do you believe and then have faith that that thing that you are envisioning will come to pass, if you put your all in it, just as Harriet tubman did.

00:10:00.060 --> 00:10:02.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So today we're going to be taking a look at.

00:10:03.630 --> 00:10:16.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How to answer the call in this particular case how's the answer the call of racism dismantling racism, where is the intersection ality.

00:10:17.700 --> 00:10:23.310 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: With so many things that are going on in life where's the intersection ality.

00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:48.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So we must be consistent and reminding ourselves of the significance of intersection ality the systems and ideologies that run the world took centuries to construct and they continue to develop over time, and so the symptoms of these constructs cannot be assumed to be any less nuanced.

00:10:49.770 --> 00:11:12.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So today i'm going to be talking with my guest Jennifer Brown and we are going to be looking at this idea of how privilege calls us to activism and Jennifer was share how being a gay woman does not stop her from acknowledging and using her white privilege to challenge racism.

00:11:13.980 --> 00:11:26.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Jennifer I will tell you a little bit about her and then we'll have to take a quick break but Jennifer is an award winning entrepreneur speaker author and diversity and inclusion expert.

00:11:26.550 --> 00:11:40.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: who's deeply compassionate or passionate about building more inclusive workplaces Jennifer has written a couple of books and actually she's co authored one book as well, but our book inclusion diversity.

00:11:41.910 --> 00:12:00.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The new workplace and the will to change was written in 2017 and then she wrote how to be an inclusive leader your role and creating cultures of belonging, where everyone can thrive in 2019 which sold over 50,000 copies.

00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:06.390 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And then she wrote a second addition to that, because Jennifer is staying the course.

00:12:07.110 --> 00:12:21.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: She is committed to equity and inclusion and so after the break, we are going to talk with Jennifer brown about what she is doing with CEE lo's across the world.

00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:30.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: helping them to engage in this work of equity and inclusion, but we're going to dig right in as well i'm taking a look at.

00:12:31.260 --> 00:12:43.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How racism shows up as well, so we will be right back to continue our discussion with Jennifer Brown, this is the dismantle racism show i'm your host the Reverend Dr tlc.

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00:14:58.230 --> 00:15:07.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Welcome back to the dismantle racism show, and I want to welcome my guest today Jennifer brown Jennifer Thank you so much for being here today.

00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:21.330 Jennifer (she/her/hers): carolyn Thank you so much, and what an opening, I feel, like all the all the feelings right now I feel so inspired and called and accountable and everything we're going to talk about today, so thank you.

00:15:21.630 --> 00:15:28.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Oh, thank you, thank you for being here and and i'm glad you feel inspired because I have to tell you when I went.

00:15:29.550 --> 00:15:39.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To see this this wonderful museum I just you know for people like you and I, who do this work all the time, we need that inspiration.

00:15:39.420 --> 00:15:39.900 Jennifer (she/her/hers): We do.

00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:51.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We absolutely need the reminders because aren't there days when it just gets exhausting and you want to say ah, you know why am I doing this.

00:15:52.920 --> 00:15:53.850 Jennifer (she/her/hers): all the time.

00:15:54.030 --> 00:16:07.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And then, when I call, and I see someone I mean, can you imagine having to run run for your life and then to run through swamps dogs chasing you with.

00:16:08.760 --> 00:16:16.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know snakes on I don't like snakes snakes in the worst snakes and, though I like like all of that, and we know that there are people who do that today.

00:16:16.920 --> 00:16:31.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah have to still in ways run from their countries in conditions like that, and so I was so inspired and people will hear me talk about this for a few more episodes on the show by Harriet tubman and then.

00:16:32.040 --> 00:16:42.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The other thing that I want to encourage you, especially you Jennifer if you if you travel to DC there's a play called the American profit with Frederick douglass.

00:16:43.800 --> 00:16:54.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: must see that as i'm sharing that for Jennifer but i'm sharing that for everybody on here if you're in DC Please see this play because Jennifer at the end of that play.

00:16:55.290 --> 00:17:02.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: there's a call to action for us it's a killer early for folks like you and I, but but for everybody and.

00:17:03.570 --> 00:17:13.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i'm not going to spoil it for you, but it's a it's a musical you know if there's talking and music and all that and by the end of it, I I was.

00:17:14.340 --> 00:17:26.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I felt like I had been called all over and felt the same way I did when I was called to ministry so but enough about my experience your Jennifer let's talk about you Jennifer you know.

00:17:28.050 --> 00:17:39.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Look, you are so committed to the work of equity and inclusion and before we get into really how you use your White privilege.

00:17:40.290 --> 00:17:46.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And the conversations around being gay as well right and and using.

00:17:47.280 --> 00:18:02.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And what that sort of does right being a gay person the oppression that happens there before we get into that though tell me a little bit about what led you to even wanting to do this work, because you know it's not easy work so.

00:18:04.230 --> 00:18:14.610 Jennifer (she/her/hers): yeah I don't I don't think I had a name for it, you know back when I started, we we only actually said diversity we didn't have the I we didn't have to eat we didn't have to be.

00:18:15.390 --> 00:18:27.840 Jennifer (she/her/hers): You know, we were in the very, very early days and I all I know, so I was a performing artist an opera singer i'm a trained professional vocalist and I lost my voice and I had to get surgery and.

00:18:28.500 --> 00:18:35.760 Jennifer (she/her/hers): You know, some people know my story, but I had to stop singing and I was deprived of my voice I defined it in a different way.

00:18:36.510 --> 00:18:44.040 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And, and at the same time, I was beginning to come out professionally and personally, this was in my 20s and.

00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:50.430 Jennifer (she/her/hers): try to find my way and recognizing that wow I had grown up with all this privilege in so many ways.

00:18:51.330 --> 00:19:03.990 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And yet this was my first in a way, taste of being in a Community where, as I would learn, we are you know all the things that we know that happened to LGBT Q people that always have that continue to.

00:19:04.560 --> 00:19:22.140 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And yet, my place the intersection ality of me, meaning, you know, taking a sort of page from Kimberly crenshaw his definition and adding a piece to it, is how I was my LGBT Q experience was mitigated it was informed by the other identities that I carry.

00:19:23.520 --> 00:19:25.980 Jennifer (she/her/hers): You know and putting those I didn't put the piece.

00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:28.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: About that so or about what you mean by that.

00:19:28.860 --> 00:19:38.250 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Well, I mean I didn't know this, when I was young right I don't think we understand this and and honestly the conversation was so in its infancy, at least in my world maybe not in yours, but.

00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:49.080 Jennifer (she/her/hers): I just think we didn't we didn't have the language to parse these things, but now looking back, I really understand there was first of all, I was my voice was not being used in the right way, I.

00:19:49.410 --> 00:19:53.850 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And that was the big truth right that I needed to deploy it differently.

00:19:54.600 --> 00:20:10.560 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And then I thought my voice would need to be deployed as an LGBT person right, and so I became very active in the workplace advocacy and Equality Movement and would reinvent myself into a an organizational development consultant a leadership consultant.

00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:21.000 Jennifer (she/her/hers): and eventually find my way to dei but, really, what I would come to realize is I was meant to give voice to the voiceless in the organizational system.

00:20:21.570 --> 00:20:31.770 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And that was that was me because I was closeted and I was also female in a male dominated business world and struggled to feel that sense of belonging that sense of.

00:20:32.220 --> 00:20:41.700 Jennifer (she/her/hers): equity and yet had to kind of find myself and really come to understand that wait my role here, much like yours Terrence.

00:20:42.150 --> 00:20:59.040 Jennifer (she/her/hers): is to build the container and space and sort of hold a conversation and locate myself as a change agent within that and I always carried out, making the world a better place, I mean, I think, as a performer it never quite enabled me to tap into that.

00:20:59.490 --> 00:21:12.840 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Nice, but who, I am more broadly than just being an artist is somebody who, who I always knew my path would be quite non traditional I would not be an employee, I would not have a job that I don't care about like that was not.

00:21:13.560 --> 00:21:21.750 Jennifer (she/her/hers): I needed to always be in nonprofits I needed to be in Community organizations, I spent my 20s working in nonprofits at the same time, as I was, as a singer.

00:21:22.320 --> 00:21:31.890 Jennifer (she/her/hers): So I knew I would need to be extremely purpose driven in my work, but we didn't have the Ai I didn't even know that existed and I stumbled into it.

00:21:32.580 --> 00:21:44.400 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And then recognized that Okay, so if I could give voice to the voiceless if I could voice the unvoiced and I could tackle these things and do that it felt so deeply satisfying.

00:21:44.430 --> 00:21:49.080 Jennifer (she/her/hers): and Sir Orton and I felt so uniquely equipped.

00:21:50.220 --> 00:21:55.440 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And I don't know why, who knows, I may be personality, I have a lot of patience.

00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:16.050 Jennifer (she/her/hers): A lot of flexibility as it as a human, I am able to love so many different people at various stages in their journey and and love myself, too, and I just felt I have not had so much to give to this conversation, so the work found me i'm sure you think about it as.

00:22:16.980 --> 00:22:19.110 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, actually, so I, I feel I.

00:22:19.170 --> 00:22:19.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Call.

00:22:19.800 --> 00:22:21.120 Jennifer (she/her/hers): So yeah yeah.

00:22:21.270 --> 00:22:32.910 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And anything, and so you said a lot in there, that I try to try to unpack a little bit because one um I think that we're all uniquely designed to do.

00:22:33.570 --> 00:22:42.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The work we just have to find our way of doing it we enter into this world with a particular purpose, I think.

00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:49.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And it's interesting that you said that you're using your voice in this way, but perhaps as a.

00:22:50.700 --> 00:22:56.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: opera singer maybe you wouldn't have been You said something related to that like it was a different way of using it.

00:22:57.420 --> 00:23:09.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And what I found interesting in this play on Frederick douglass there were white people in this play as well playing roles and I am and I found myself.

00:23:10.530 --> 00:23:21.900 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: drawn and intrigued by their participation in this, because I know that they have to be transformed by doing the work they were doing just by the way.

00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:32.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: They were engaged in this work and the call to action at the end, they were into this thing right and and I wanted to highlight that because.

00:23:32.850 --> 00:23:38.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: oftentimes people think well, what can I do in my corner of the world, and here are these actors.

00:23:39.600 --> 00:23:50.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: who've decided that they are going to be in this way that is so magnificent and even the two people who brought the play together.

00:23:51.120 --> 00:23:57.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: A black man and a white man and the white man is actually a country singer wrote the music for it.

00:23:58.170 --> 00:24:12.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So I just want to share that because for anybody listening, you can find in your own corner of the world ways of answering this call to dismantle racism Ray and so, but I wanted to also go back.

00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:29.910 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Jennifer to this idea of diversity, equity and inclusion, one of the problems that I often have as a person of color with that diversity equity and inclusion banner is that as much more comfortable to talk about any other issue, other than race.

00:24:30.090 --> 00:24:31.380 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So what's been your.

00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:41.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Experience with that whether it's been what you do, personally, or what you've seen in the world, because you've worked with a lot of companies in this area.

00:24:41.970 --> 00:24:50.310 Jennifer (she/her/hers): you're right, you know we sometimes i'll hear it, it manifests as oh Jennifer we have diversity of thought in our organization right.

00:24:50.760 --> 00:25:00.900 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Or you know global diversity it, yes, yes to those things mattering but there's an avoidance like you say of speaking about the hard stuff and.

00:25:01.260 --> 00:25:12.240 Jennifer (she/her/hers): I do think that's true, I think it shifted a bit in 2020 with the murder George floyd and the the escalation of this very truthful conversation right that we I think hadn't ever really had.

00:25:13.980 --> 00:25:26.730 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And not put such a fine point on it, yes, we had had the you know the black employee resource group in corporate America we'd had the Latin next or Hispanic group we'd had the Asian American group so we'd had ethnicity based efforts.

00:25:27.120 --> 00:25:43.050 Jennifer (she/her/hers): and communities, but it hadn't been it hadn't been as hard hitting truthful raw and that really needed to happen it really it needed to the wake up needed to occur, and it and I think it did occur for a lot of people.

00:25:44.190 --> 00:25:55.950 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And, and the question really that this the discomfort was part of the learning and the growth and the evolution that you saw both organizations and individuals go through, I think a lot of ally ship was awakened.

00:25:56.310 --> 00:25:57.270 Jennifer (she/her/hers): That year.

00:25:57.330 --> 00:26:06.240 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And the next year and now we're in 2022 and we can talk about that and sort of how you know we have to keep our foot in the door, keep that door open for change.

00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:06.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: right because.

00:26:06.900 --> 00:26:09.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You guys want to wanted to ask you about that I.

00:26:10.410 --> 00:26:18.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: break it just submitted, but have you have you noticed, because, according to the research, like in 2020 it was like oh up here and now it's.

00:26:18.540 --> 00:26:21.420 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: sort of goodness so is that been your experience.

00:26:21.420 --> 00:26:32.820 Jennifer (she/her/hers): yeah well, I think the companies that were already doing this, or are still doing it right and and upping their efforts and budgets and all that and there's tons of new organizations that are doing it for the first time.

00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:45.240 Jennifer (she/her/hers): So I don't see that flagging I do think we live in complex times with so many competing priorities, and you know D, I was also always the nice to have, and then it became the must have and.

00:26:45.780 --> 00:26:49.710 Jennifer (she/her/hers): I think we've got to keep the pressure on and the urgency on if people go back to sleep.

00:26:50.280 --> 00:26:56.220 Jennifer (she/her/hers): We can't let that happen, so I think that's why we exist, you know and and our community of practitioners and advocates is.

00:26:56.490 --> 00:27:05.760 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Is is trying to continue to say look, this is the new, this is the current that our current state and our future if we don't get this right.

00:27:06.090 --> 00:27:22.500 Jennifer (she/her/hers): there's so much harm that's going to not only be perpetuated but continue to lose out on generations of my different identities and their contributions, and you know it's only going to hurt organizations in business, and you know anyone that doesn't know that isn't doing their job.

00:27:23.310 --> 00:27:24.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: braids right.

00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:26.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well that's a perfect guys take a break.

00:27:26.940 --> 00:27:36.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And when we come back we're going to continue the conversation a bit about your work with organizations and then I really want to jump in a little bit.

00:27:37.140 --> 00:27:49.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In terms of having you to to kind of share with us what you understand your role to be as a white woman of privilege in the role of dismantling racism, but we have to take a quick break we'll be right back.

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00:29:53.910 --> 00:30:07.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're back with my guest today Jennifer brown Jennifer up before the break you were talking about the importance of helping organizations and businesses to understand really what they're missing out on.

00:30:07.860 --> 00:30:09.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hmm don't include.

00:30:11.220 --> 00:30:21.390 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: A diverse group of people in terms of race and ethnicity we're finding to be the most challenging part of doing this work with organizations.

00:30:21.660 --> 00:30:23.130 Jennifer (she/her/hers): hmm where do I start.

00:30:24.900 --> 00:30:32.280 Jennifer (she/her/hers): So you know there's a lot of deflections and denial of you know, is there a problem.

00:30:33.090 --> 00:30:43.410 Jennifer (she/her/hers): You know I don't want to be required to meet what is called maybe in some circles quotas or goals or targets that's that's somehow false or artificial or.

00:30:44.190 --> 00:31:04.920 Jennifer (she/her/hers): That doesn't, allow me to hire the best person, you know there's a lot of ways that resistance shows up, and I think it's it's fear of change, it is fear of loss of control and power which ironically, you and I know actually the sharing of power magnifies it.

00:31:05.490 --> 00:31:11.130 Jennifer (she/her/hers): You know, it creates an exponential benefit and it actually changes the person sharing it.

00:31:11.340 --> 00:31:14.130 Jennifer (she/her/hers): With you know I find that that's been true for me.

00:31:14.970 --> 00:31:25.800 Jennifer (she/her/hers): But I still kind of come up against this questioning the skepticism of you know what is, what is the problem, there is no problem I don't have anything to say about it, I don't have anything to contribute to it.

00:31:26.700 --> 00:31:39.180 Jennifer (she/her/hers): i'm not diverse and therefore I don't know you know anything about this anyway it's it's just fascinating to kind of hear all of that and and tackle it really you kind of need to.

00:31:39.540 --> 00:31:45.240 Jennifer (she/her/hers): As a consultant you got to meet people where they're at and kind of really an analyzed quickly, where is this coming from.

00:31:45.600 --> 00:31:46.170 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And what.

00:31:46.230 --> 00:31:52.440 Jennifer (she/her/hers): What kind of information, could I give here that would help to illuminate something for someone.

00:31:53.100 --> 00:32:01.230 Jennifer (she/her/hers): To loosen that resistance, so that they can have that Aha moment to say ah like someone just said to me, this is a proposal, we were just talking about him.

00:32:01.650 --> 00:32:12.750 Jennifer (she/her/hers): There was a C suite leader and one of my audiences virtual audiences for a keynote and he said, you know you came on screen in front of 200 of our leaders and I thought to myself how tone deaf to hire this woman.

00:32:13.860 --> 00:32:30.870 Jennifer (she/her/hers): On this topic and, meanwhile, I do my keynote he is he's i'm inspired and excited and and and that quickly transforms through what I say and what we do together but um that's real and that said about me it said about a lot of other folks.

00:32:31.260 --> 00:32:32.430 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And I know that and I.

00:32:32.580 --> 00:32:41.010 Jennifer (she/her/hers): guess my personal processes I sort of push through that because I know that what I have to give is so important, and it must be communicated.

00:32:41.250 --> 00:32:43.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So, was that because you're a white woman.

00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:59.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah, and so it actually brings up some interesting things, because if we get down to the nitty gritty of this, you know it's it, it shows that we all can do this work right and that it's really important for us all to be engaged in this work.

00:32:59.940 --> 00:33:08.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I also understand I don't know what that person's racial or ethnic background was, but I also understand.

00:33:10.350 --> 00:33:20.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What the where the question might have come from, because what happens often if we're going to be really real about this, my experience has been a couple of things, particularly.

00:33:21.270 --> 00:33:39.780 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: as it relates to me as a woman of color doing this work, I find that often companies will want to hire a white person to do the work and pay them more than they will pay a person of color to do the work when I not only have the credentials, I have the experience that goes along with.

00:33:39.780 --> 00:33:39.990 Jennifer (she/her/hers): It.

00:33:40.260 --> 00:33:56.430 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But secondly, if there are times when i'm talking about this work that it's like Oh, I could just hear the violins playing because they think that i'm making this work up and and I would imagine that you don't have to go through that piece, I hope you don't.

00:33:57.450 --> 00:34:09.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But I, I want to just applaud you and encourage our listeners for continuing to do the work because it takes all of us doing the work.

00:34:09.300 --> 00:34:15.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and continuing to learn and it's not that you're speaking on my behalf i'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but.

00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:26.430 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I believe that there's an understanding that you have about the process of inclusion that would be valuable.

00:34:26.940 --> 00:34:36.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: to helping people to look at their resistance is so I just want to offer that and then I also want to just ask you, because I know will run out of time.

00:34:36.660 --> 00:34:51.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: talk to me a little bit about how you understand the way that you present to the world as a white privilege one because you know people look at you, and they don't know anything about you right and.

00:34:51.750 --> 00:35:14.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know, you and I know just based on our our age that people also stereotype the way they think gay women look like so you've been in plus you and I kind of talked before the show as well it's so you presents as a white privileged you know.

00:35:15.870 --> 00:35:23.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: heterosexual women So how do you use that or do you think that it's a part of the conversation.

00:35:23.220 --> 00:35:33.930 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Oh yeah I use it all the time, I mean so in the LGBT community, this is called passing privilege, though, it means that you can pass through the world is heterosexual.

00:35:34.620 --> 00:35:45.780 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And i'm aware of that and that's precisely why within the first five minutes of speaking usually i'm able to disclose something that's not visible about me.

00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:54.510 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Because it doesn't it's not for me, you know I I honestly kind of don't feel like I need to do it anymore, for me, because i've been on a long road with my identity and.

00:35:54.750 --> 00:36:07.230 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And really made it so much peace with that and really celebration of that and grace and gratitude honestly but, but I do it for the person in the back of the room that has never seen somebody that looks like me being as brave or is courageous or as honest.

00:36:08.010 --> 00:36:14.760 Jennifer (she/her/hers): You know I shine that light for that parent with the kid who just came out to them or just asked to be called a different name and different pronouns.

00:36:15.510 --> 00:36:20.760 Jennifer (she/her/hers): You know I do it because of that legacy piece, and I may never know the difference that these things make.

00:36:21.150 --> 00:36:38.670 Jennifer (she/her/hers): But making our invisible visible and being that Trojan horse that can get through the castle walls, so to speak, and and sort of unleash the truth, because we were able to get into that place you know some of us can, the truth is, some of us can get in two places that others can't.

00:36:39.060 --> 00:36:46.320 Jennifer (she/her/hers): yeah and sometimes we get given we have permission to do things you and I have different levels of permission to say things.

00:36:46.710 --> 00:36:56.190 Jennifer (she/her/hers): We might also be believed, differently, you may be called positively biased towards a message that you're sharing that I may not have that kind of barrier.

00:36:57.300 --> 00:37:08.100 Jennifer (she/her/hers): You know so it's this is These are the things we have to understand about our our identity as messengers that you know each of us has our own version of the rooms, we can get in a.

00:37:08.130 --> 00:37:22.590 Jennifer (she/her/hers): room and when we're in those rooms, the question to me the measure of us as humans is what do we do with that time, what do we do with that access and that permission, what do we do with the package that we were born into which we don't have a lot to do with right, we were given this.

00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:24.000 Jennifer (she/her/hers): It just as happenstance.

00:37:24.270 --> 00:37:38.070 Jennifer (she/her/hers): it's the accident of birth, but to me it comes with a set of directions, I feel very much that I am I am following my directions, because this was why I was given this I mean what is the point of being given this if i'm not using it.

00:37:38.490 --> 00:37:40.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Alright, so you're Harriet number to call.

00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:43.710 Jennifer (she/her/hers): us because really Oh, my goodness, if all.

00:37:44.790 --> 00:37:50.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right that's that's the thing I could just be a little bit of that right, but here's the thing.

00:37:50.850 --> 00:38:05.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But what you are is reminding me of is what I said about area, you tell your story you do this work, because you have an obligation to free other people, even if it's freeing their mind right yes and.

00:38:06.540 --> 00:38:15.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Why are doing the work we that the work that we do I don't know from from your perspective, but this is often very painful.

00:38:15.720 --> 00:38:16.230 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Oh yeah.

00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:22.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: it's very, very painful it's painful because i'm reminded every day.

00:38:23.430 --> 00:38:42.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Of who, I am as a person of color when I walk these United States streets are actually when I travel anywhere i'm remind why I am but also it's not just about what happens to me is what happens to other folks, and so I am encouraged by the work that you're doing but let's talk about.

00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:55.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: being gay man, we know that gay people often experience a lot of oppression, but what are the things that I will hear gay people say i've heard this for years.

00:38:56.640 --> 00:39:02.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: When i'm talking about my plight as a personal coach Oh, I get it, I understand it, because i'm gay.

00:39:03.090 --> 00:39:08.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hmm tell me what you think about that I got lots to say about that I.

00:39:08.640 --> 00:39:10.650 Jennifer (she/her/hers): know you do I want to know what do you.

00:39:10.650 --> 00:39:16.260 Jennifer (she/her/hers): So do I yeah you know terrell and this gets to intersection ality right.

00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:33.480 Jennifer (she/her/hers): and privilege, because there are many in the gay community who have cysts gender male privilege right they are presenting male, by the way, and I will say that because I have transgender male friends who talk about the male privilege that they step into.

00:39:33.900 --> 00:39:42.150 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And I hope everybody's minds just didn't explode, that this is like where it gets really interesting yeah and I have trans women friends who lose.

00:39:42.630 --> 00:39:49.350 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Levels of status when they come out and present as female in the world right so that's the most fascinating.

00:39:49.680 --> 00:40:06.000 Jennifer (she/her/hers): To me kind of lesson of the differential and how we walk through the world and and this all applies across the board, so I might have white male privilege in the gay community, I might have you know able able privilege, I may have passing privilege.

00:40:07.080 --> 00:40:18.420 Jennifer (she/her/hers): So anyway, I think, as you get deeper into this you're right that the empathy the focus, we need to have is where do I sit in a given system, and if it is a marginalized Community historically.

00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:29.640 Jennifer (she/her/hers): I may still benefit from the systems that reward parts of my identity, and then it is incumbent on me to now lift up and Platform and dissenter.

00:40:30.150 --> 00:40:39.690 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Perhaps my voice, you know I used to be the only one in the room, you know, in the old days, where I was I literally there was only gay white men around me in the in the circles that I was in in the corporate world.

00:40:40.230 --> 00:40:51.300 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And then that has changed over time it's still going on, I mean, I think there are people that don't even if you are in a marginalized Community does not mean that you're done with your own inclusion journey.

00:40:51.720 --> 00:40:52.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that's right.

00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:52.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right.

00:40:53.220 --> 00:41:14.130 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that's that's an advocate I mean listen it's right it's right for all of us and it I often talk about I have a you know this one who is very dear to me like this white male gay friend and I often have to say to him, like that's your White male privilege.

00:41:15.270 --> 00:41:30.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Like and he is so like I mean love him to pieces he's so engaged he's so what I mean free for years he's been, this is a new for him, but there are times when we talk about doing certain things i'll say.

00:41:30.690 --> 00:41:48.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That Do you understand that that's because you're a white male that you could do X, Y amp Z I could it's different for me right, or even I have you know, maybe a black male friend who's gay is still So yes, we do, and even as a black woman.

00:41:49.650 --> 00:41:58.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I have to look at that I might have a different privilege because of socio economic status that some folks don't have, and so I appreciate you saying look we.

00:41:59.340 --> 00:42:18.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: it's different, but the other thing is that I know that we have to take a quick break, but even if we look at the intersection ality in the gay community, one thing that significant is there are more people of color who are transgender who are murdered.

00:42:19.140 --> 00:42:26.010 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: or violence against them than there are white people so when we look at this intersection ality.

00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:33.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We have to take a look at that we could even talk about what happened during the AIDS crisis.

00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:50.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right, you know up my understanding, historically sat many of the white men who were diagnosed with AIDS and HIV intentionally went out and slept with men of color to give them that so there's a whole bunch.

00:42:50.070 --> 00:42:52.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah stop that we don't even talk about.

00:42:52.980 --> 00:42:54.270 Jennifer (she/her/hers): ugly ugly.

00:42:54.390 --> 00:43:02.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: ugly ugly, so there is that intersection ality, but we do have to take a quick break and we are going to be right back with my guest Jennifer Brown.

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00:45:09.780 --> 00:45:16.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are back with the dismantle racism show before the break, we were talking about the intersection ality of.

00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:26.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Really, being a part of the LGBT Q I a community and race and Jennifer I ended with like sort of like a bum.

00:45:27.570 --> 00:45:31.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I want to give you an opportunity, if you wanted to just comment about that.

00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:35.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Before continuing with our discussion yeah.

00:45:35.130 --> 00:45:47.340 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Thank you, I mean no Community is without its work to do and I, I refer to it as the diversity within the diversity is all of our jobs to elevate.

00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:59.430 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And, particularly those of us in communities that benefit from relatively more ease and safety in the world, it is the message really is now, who is missing from.

00:46:00.150 --> 00:46:08.550 Jennifer (she/her/hers): You know and i'll say one Community which by the way, there's it's like hard to even say that because it reduces so many identities into one I mean look at LGBT Q is a.

00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:10.410 Jennifer (she/her/hers): There is so much.

00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:17.460 Jennifer (she/her/hers): So many different experiences being lived and and the way the world treats us even within that long acronym.

00:46:17.790 --> 00:46:25.020 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Right um you know the world and workplaces have collapsed our identities and we have needed to do that, so that we can be seen.

00:46:25.980 --> 00:46:41.460 Jennifer (she/her/hers): But, now is the time, I think, to pull these identities apart and think really deeply about our ally ship and i'll say that I feel like an ally, like most days feel like an aspiring Alec because you're only an ally, if someone in an affected Community calls you an ally.

00:46:41.850 --> 00:46:42.900 Jennifer (she/her/hers): But I feel.

00:46:43.020 --> 00:46:52.350 Jennifer (she/her/hers): These days, my work is a valley ship and I, yes I i'm in a couple marginalized identities, you know and and certainly have struggled in those senses senses.

00:46:52.920 --> 00:47:05.910 Jennifer (she/her/hers): But I feel called now to shine a light on and be a part of ensuring that we are having a complete conversation about those who are suffering the most.

00:47:06.300 --> 00:47:17.310 Jennifer (she/her/hers): You know and and and really feeling called to activate whatever I can to get into those rooms, to make sure that those those voices those stories those experiences, the research has shared.

00:47:17.850 --> 00:47:20.700 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And that I am a strong voice holding other people accountable.

00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:22.470 Jennifer (she/her/hers): That look look like I do.

00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:23.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right.

00:47:23.310 --> 00:47:32.550 Jennifer (she/her/hers): In many ways to take action, so you know it's a it's it's it's I guess it's not where I thought I would be because I thought I would always be fighting from that.

00:47:32.940 --> 00:47:38.880 Jennifer (she/her/hers): marginalized community that I identified so deeply with and that taught me so much and teaches me so much.

00:47:39.210 --> 00:47:47.130 Jennifer (she/her/hers): But these days I feel like i've sort of gone into the other side and i'm working to get my people, so to speak, i'm kind of trying to gather.

00:47:47.670 --> 00:47:59.010 Jennifer (she/her/hers): That community to say, actually, you are not only needed your necessary to the change equation and trying to kind of explain what that looks like because I think there's a lot of people who are frozen in fear.

00:48:00.030 --> 00:48:10.350 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Self doubt do I belong, am I welcome what can I do i'm not this i'm not that you know that needs to be fleshed out so that we can go further together.

00:48:10.980 --> 00:48:22.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know, I just want to tell you I just really love this idea of flushing it out, because I, like you have often had an issue with LGBT Q I all.

00:48:23.820 --> 00:48:27.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The same like i'm like it's not the same.

00:48:27.120 --> 00:48:31.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: No it's not the same, but because of how our society is structured.

00:48:32.130 --> 00:48:37.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah and so Those are the things that we have to begin to on pat.

00:48:37.230 --> 00:48:46.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I hope that my listeners are hearing you clearly that, just because you're part of a marginalized Community doesn't mean that you don't have your your work to do.

00:48:46.920 --> 00:48:55.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And what you are reinforcing and I love this is because we all have a gift and we all show up in this world.

00:48:56.010 --> 00:49:09.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: it's on who we are and there's work for us to do, and what I hear you saying is that you've evolved over time and what you focused on as I imagined after George floyd was murdered.

00:49:10.350 --> 00:49:18.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Maybe your focus on even racial equity, you know was was spiked a little bit more is that a fair statement to say.

00:49:18.450 --> 00:49:25.170 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Absolutely, and it goes back further than that, it was I remember kind of the day it was the women's march in 2017.

00:49:26.340 --> 00:49:36.540 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Where I think we we started to grapple with you know, Martin Luther King junior's quote of the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.

00:49:37.140 --> 00:49:45.180 Jennifer (she/her/hers): I really deeply in my heart began to think about that and say, maybe not maybe not and.

00:49:45.570 --> 00:49:55.320 Jennifer (she/her/hers): I didn't know what to do with myself, but I gathered amongst mainly you know white women at a march right and reflected then and would come to learn, many women of color didn't feel comfortable.

00:49:55.530 --> 00:49:59.340 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Gathering and didn't feel comfortable and didn't feel welcome and hadn't been included and.

00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:10.770 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And so you know it causes you to go back through everything you've learned with a different lens once you learn something like that, and you, you dig and you say what was I not told what was I not taught what what did I not realize.

00:50:11.190 --> 00:50:21.900 Jennifer (she/her/hers): In my strategy, and in my approach and, in my view of of my own liberation, but who's not alongside me and their liberation and who, who have I not understood the experience of.

00:50:22.290 --> 00:50:31.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So you know it's interesting Jennifer that's been one of the problems with with women of color and being called feminist.

00:50:31.560 --> 00:50:34.110 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Which is why our term is women so.

00:50:34.170 --> 00:50:34.710 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Women so.

00:50:34.740 --> 00:50:46.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Exactly it woman is because we believe in equity for all people, and not just for one group of people, and so we've often felt like white women didn't understand.

00:50:46.650 --> 00:50:47.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Our.

00:50:47.220 --> 00:51:00.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Our cry and that's why I went back to Susan B Anthony she had Frederick douglass like they think we butt heads right see what happens when we learn like a bit of history, I mean I knew that art about them already but i'm.

00:51:02.040 --> 00:51:24.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Our history is so important for helping us engage in this work, but I wonder Jennifer if you could really quickly, because I know you've talked about reframing the concept of privilege as a as a call into leaders, rather than a call out because you speak about that, just a little bit.

00:51:24.180 --> 00:51:31.530 Jennifer (she/her/hers): yeah I thank you for asking, I think we have to have a new conversation a different conversation, because the one we've been having is.

00:51:31.980 --> 00:51:44.790 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Those people have it and I don't have it it's sort of this binary which is never True, the world is not a you know not as when we look at gender identity we're learning, you know it's a continuum of identity right and we're all sort of somewhere along this.

00:51:45.420 --> 00:51:51.330 Jennifer (she/her/hers): path, but to say some people have something and test or dismiss them as a result of that.

00:51:52.140 --> 00:51:58.560 Jennifer (she/her/hers): I think has resulted, whether intended or not in people with a lot of power to shift things.

00:51:58.950 --> 00:52:15.270 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Saying well i'm not I don't see a path to being involved with this, I don't know how to step in I don't know what to use in myself, so I think redefining it as any aspect of us that gives us permission access power.

00:52:17.550 --> 00:52:20.370 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Trust automatic trust safety.

00:52:20.910 --> 00:52:21.600 comfort.

00:52:22.950 --> 00:52:26.370 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Knowledge seniority education.

00:52:28.020 --> 00:52:35.700 Jennifer (she/her/hers): You know if we do the privilege walk I don't know terrell and if you've ever done that it's a really powerful exercise, but there are so many so many things.

00:52:36.600 --> 00:52:46.350 Jennifer (she/her/hers): that enable us to do certain things that others can't and so if we if we go forward with that definition now all of a sudden, we can all be activating something that we have we have access to.

00:52:46.590 --> 00:52:47.820 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Like right in front of us right.

00:52:47.850 --> 00:52:51.660 Jennifer (she/her/hers): In us we had it and and so it's no excuses.

00:52:52.260 --> 00:53:01.110 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And this is not like meant to be oh you're a bad person or i'm going to shame you it's not even about that it's actually, what can I, how can I put my shoulder to the wheel for equity.

00:53:01.530 --> 00:53:07.830 Jennifer (she/her/hers): How can I use my voice, how can I challenge people that look like me how can I get into that room, how can I have that conversation, how can I question that.

00:53:08.430 --> 00:53:13.140 Jennifer (she/her/hers): How can I step back so that somebody else may step forward these things are to me are very.

00:53:13.620 --> 00:53:22.560 Jennifer (she/her/hers): they're straightforward and their their tactics that I think resonate with the business world, because it's something people can do and there's a bias towards action in that world.

00:53:23.340 --> 00:53:32.130 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And I think opposite of shame, which sort of which sort of like grounds us to a halt, you know it's sort of a i'm a bad person, therefore, I can't really do anything.

00:53:32.460 --> 00:53:41.010 Jennifer (she/her/hers): it's more of a hey, this is an invitation to you know, do something positive that can level that playing field and you have access to it right now.

00:53:41.310 --> 00:53:49.260 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And it's very actually simple as long as we can explain it in a way that somebody says, I can do that that's something I can do, I can do that tomorrow.

00:53:49.680 --> 00:53:53.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah so Jennifer our time.

00:53:55.800 --> 00:54:07.830 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So much more just urge people to get your books and Jennifer tell people how they can find out more about you have you to come and work with your company get your books literally.

00:54:07.860 --> 00:54:16.740 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Please everybody if you're an employee in an organization or leader and they need our help, let us know at Jennifer brown consulting COM my team is incredible.

00:54:17.190 --> 00:54:27.060 Jennifer (she/her/hers): And we help organizations get their strategy in line we help you know guide the the buy in that, and the around the resistance that happens.

00:54:27.420 --> 00:54:35.310 Jennifer (she/her/hers): So please, like lean on us, let us know I keynote and speak a lot so check me out on Jennifer brown speaks calm on Twitter i'm at Jennifer Brown.

00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:46.830 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Jennifer brown speaks on instagram we're on linkedin Jennifer and consulting and then check out my podcast the will to change carolyn and I hope, maybe I can repurpose this wonderful conversation over there.

00:54:47.700 --> 00:54:48.780 Jennifer (she/her/hers): and also the.

00:54:48.810 --> 00:55:08.490 Jennifer (she/her/hers): Books i'm on my fourth soon to be fourth book The latest is called how to be an inclusive leader and it's super easy read fast direct empathetic kind gracious and yet, strong and firm in terms of what we really need to do in the world, so thank you so much for having me.

00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:19.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well Jennifer I want to thank you for being on the show, and I want to thank my listeners, for being here today and I want to invite my listeners to stay tuned.

00:55:19.560 --> 00:55:30.900 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: For the conscious consultant hour with Sam leibowitz where he helps you to walk through life with the greatest of ease and joy be well be safe being cursed until next time bye for now.

00:55:52.230 --> 00:55:53.280 www.TalkRadio.nyc: you're listening to.

00:56:00.060 --> 00:56:00.600 Jennifer (she/her/hers): be added.