WHAT WILL THE AUDIENCE LEARN?
Listeners will be more equipped to recognize the connections between hyper-masculinity and the perpetuation of racism. Men will be able to notice the ways hyper-masculine socialization affects their own lives, learn to better care for themselves emotionally, and be part of the solution towards dismantling these suffocating systems.
EPISODE SUMMARY:
Oppressive constructs such as white supremacy, patriarchy, and heteronormativity can seem independent, however, they work in tandem every day. The generalized qualifications of masculinity and femininity that are systematically asserted throughout our lives serve white supremacy and the oppression/suppression of all people.
After Part 1, the lively discussion continued off-screen. Rev. Dr. TLC will be joined again by Boysen Hodgson to dig deeper into the discussion about the ways hyper-masculinity harms men (and their loved ones) emotionally and contributes to white supremacy/racism, misogyny, and anti-LGBTQ+ culture.
How can a white man unlearn harmful concepts, nurture his emotional life, and use his social standing to dismantle white supremacy?
Twitter/IG: @boysenh
EPISODE QUOTE: White men are afraid of white men. White Women are afraid of white men and then black and brown people are taught to be afraid of white men. - Rev Dr. TLC
Tune in for this important conversation at TalkRadio.nyc or watch the Facebook Livestream by Clicking Here.
Rev. Dr. TLC reads a meditation from her book Dismantling Racism. She begins each chapter and episode with a meditation to help center her listeners. After her meditation she acknowledges two white individuals who used their privilege to help the greater good. Clifford Dorr was an attorney who defended Rosa Parks when she was arrested for not giving up her seat to a white man. Rev. Dr. TLC also talks about Barbra Henry who was a teacher who taught Ruby Bridges when other teachers wouldn’t. She encourages her listeners to gather the strength and courage to dismantle racism like Clifford and Barbra.
Rev. Dr. TLC introduces her returning guest, Boysen Hodgson. Boysen is the author of New Macho. Boyson shares his apprehension with coming on the show because he feared he would offend Rev. Dr. TLC or receive backlash from white men. Rev. Dr. TLC and Boysen discuss ways in which people are brought up to be fearful of white men. Boysen adds how culture has programmed men into hiding behind a mask and not being honest with their emotions.
Boysen breaks down the focus of the Mankind Project. It provides tools that helps you be honest with yourself and fully connect with your emotions to start the healing process. Boysen provides an acronym for heal to help us understand what our bodies are experiencing. H stands for honest and E stands for embody. A is for accepting what you are feeling. L is for learning about what you can do differently. Rev. Dr. TLC and Boysen continue to discuss the effects of white male fragility and how it leads to self destruction.
Rev. Dr. TLC and Boysen discuss how one’s ancestral past can bring on guilt. Boysen shares his family history with Rev. Dr. TLC mentions that there were a number of farmers in his family that owned and enslaved people. In order for us to move forward we must acknowledge one’s privileges and where they came from. Boysen shares his experience in finding out his family once owned enslaved people. You can find more information on Boysen Hodgson at his website boysenh.com. If you would like to learn more about the Mankind Project you can find information at mkpusa.org.
00:00:59.670 --> 00:01:12.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hello, and welcome to dismantle racism, where our goal is to uncover dismantle and to eradicate racism and create a world where racial equity is the norm.
00:01:13.170 --> 00:01:35.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i'm your host the Reverend Dr tlc I want to start the show this morning by reading to you one of the meditations from my book on dismantling racism healing separation from the inside out and i'm choosing to read the meditation that's associated with speaking truth to power.
00:01:37.110 --> 00:01:50.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I start each chapter of my book, with a meditation and I start each episode, with a meditation to ground us and to Center us, but in the book I make it very, very personal.
00:01:51.780 --> 00:02:03.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: For the reader to really think about the ways in which they engage in this work and centering them and today's meditation is really thinking about those who came before us.
00:02:04.110 --> 00:02:22.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So, if you would, I invite you to close your eyes ground yourself and find your breath connecting with your sacred intelligence that part of you that manifest your greatness, while simultaneously helping others to manifest their greatness.
00:02:24.780 --> 00:02:28.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: breathe in and out and hear these words.
00:02:29.910 --> 00:02:35.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: faithful one, thank you for those who have helped to pave the way for me.
00:02:36.210 --> 00:02:43.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: For those who violently fought for the civil rights of others and during violence, I am grateful.
00:02:45.060 --> 00:02:53.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: They demonstrated what it meant to protest peacefully consistently fight for justice and be committed to honoring their calling.
00:02:55.200 --> 00:03:11.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Thank you for the ways I benefited from their actions for those who have fought and continue to fight with fervor for the rights of women, the LGBT Q is a community, the disabled, the immigrant the homeless, the impoverished and more.
00:03:13.050 --> 00:03:14.010 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I am grateful.
00:03:15.270 --> 00:03:24.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That was stood the pain and degradation that comes with such advocacy and show me what it means to have something worth fighting for.
00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:38.010 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Thank you for the ways I benefit from their courage and resolve for those who fight fires on my behalf, literally and metaphorically risking their very lives to save another.
00:03:39.210 --> 00:03:45.420 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i'm grateful for their selflessness dedication and care for even the stranger.
00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:57.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: All these people and so many more respond to your calling that might have began as a gentle nudge but ended in a push towards their purpose.
00:03:58.500 --> 00:04:04.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: They chose and are choosing not to turn around but to walk toward purpose and power.
00:04:06.450 --> 00:04:15.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: May they be examples to me when I feel tired overwhelmed or dejected even when the little things don't go as planned.
00:04:16.200 --> 00:04:25.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: May they be models of ways to slay the dragons in my life to speak truth to power and to run the race with great dignity.
00:04:27.240 --> 00:04:42.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: May I never give up on that which you call me to do great or small, and may I always fast in the knowledge enjoy that I am sustained by you, for all of it, I say thank you.
00:04:43.110 --> 00:04:48.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so it is Shay and on their.
00:04:53.280 --> 00:04:55.590 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I just want you to take another deep breath in.
00:04:56.670 --> 00:05:01.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and feel into this work of social justice.
00:05:02.610 --> 00:05:05.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Dismantling Racism, Racial equity.
00:05:07.170 --> 00:05:18.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I often get asked the question how do I overcome the fear of engaging in this work, how do I keep moving forward.
00:05:19.350 --> 00:05:26.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I know that oftentimes people are really afraid of the consequences of doing this work.
00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:34.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And that's why today we're going to continue a conversation that I started several weeks ago with my guest today, but it was around.
00:05:35.460 --> 00:05:48.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Taking responsibility of white male fragility, but before I get into the conversation with my guest today I want to highlight two people.
00:05:49.410 --> 00:06:00.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Who decided that they would take a stand you've heard me highlight people on here before, like Fannie Lou hamer Harriet tubman sojourner truth Frederick douglass even.
00:06:02.190 --> 00:06:19.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Today, I want to highlight two white individuals and I highlight them because whenever i'm teaching my classes on dismantling racism, I often talk to the participants about thinking about who their ancestors were.
00:06:20.730 --> 00:06:29.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: or who were the white people who decided that they were going to use their privilege, in order to dismantle races.
00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:37.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So one of the people, I want to highlight is clifford door D, you are.
00:06:39.630 --> 00:06:49.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: clifford door was an Alabama lawyer and he played a very important role in defending activists of the civil rights movement.
00:06:51.990 --> 00:07:09.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: One of the things I want you to think about we know about Rosa parks, we know about Dr king, we know about the Montgomery improvement association and their connection with the Montgomery bus boycott.
00:07:11.340 --> 00:07:20.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That was a planned movement and it took everybody getting involved, how do you think Rosa parks got out of jail.
00:07:22.140 --> 00:07:23.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: clifford door.
00:07:24.270 --> 00:07:29.910 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Was the Attorney the white attorney who defended her case.
00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:38.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Do you think that there would have been the same outcome, had it been a black attorney maybe it would have.
00:07:39.660 --> 00:07:51.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But the fact that it was a white man who decided to stand up in 1955 let's be clear about the time in the south and what was taking place.
00:07:52.500 --> 00:08:03.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: There was a white man who decided, I want to use my privilege, in order to advance the civil rights movement in order to fight for social justice.
00:08:05.280 --> 00:08:09.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Again, the outcome may have been the same I don't know.
00:08:11.610 --> 00:08:30.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But it took someone standing up saying, I want to be a part of the movement and that's what I want to encourage each of you to do we all have to make sacrifices and i'm sure that his life was not easy, as a result of that, can you imagine being in the segregated south.
00:08:32.700 --> 00:08:36.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: As a white person defending black people.
00:08:38.820 --> 00:08:52.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Do you think that life would have been easy for you just as it's not easy for us today if we decide that we're going to stand up and say no more and speak truth to power that's what he was doing.
00:08:53.730 --> 00:08:56.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: He was speaking truth to power.
00:08:57.750 --> 00:09:02.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The second person, I want to highlight today is Barbara Henry.
00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:06.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Barbara Henry was an educator.
00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:11.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: She was from New England and fact but moved to New Orleans.
00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:23.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Barbara Henry was the person who taught Ruby bridges and if you don't know who Ruby bridges was or is actually since she's still living.
00:09:23.730 --> 00:09:42.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Ruby bridges was a six year old girl who integrated one of the schools in New Orleans and for an in tired year was the only student present in that school because all the light parents decided to take their children out of that school.
00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:54.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But Barbara Henry was the loan teacher who decided that she would work with Ruby bridges.
00:09:56.310 --> 00:10:14.430 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Every day when Ruby bridges went to school, there were federal marshals that escorted her to school because of the threats, Barbara Henry also received threats and also had to make extreme sacrifices, but she thought that it was worth it.
00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:28.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so what I want to invite you to do is to garner some of the courage and the strength and the commitment of Barbara Henry and clifford door and say i'm going to fight for Racial equity.
00:10:29.790 --> 00:10:32.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i'm going to make the sacrifices.
00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:49.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: This is why it's important for us to know history there's a fight now about critical race theory, because people really don't understand what it means, but really what we want to do is to go back into teach history.
00:10:50.640 --> 00:11:11.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: As it was because for many people if they know about Rosa parks, the story that they know about Rosa parks, is that she was sick and tired of being sick and tired, so to speak, as Fannie Lou hamer would say, but she was tired and she refused to give up proceed to a white man.
00:11:13.230 --> 00:11:23.310 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What most people think, is that she was actually sitting in the front of the bus and she was not she was sitting in the back of the bus but i'm not going to do that history lesson with you this morning.
00:11:24.870 --> 00:11:25.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Go look it up.
00:11:26.880 --> 00:11:32.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Now I guarantee you, though, you will find that there will be some erroneous facts.
00:11:34.560 --> 00:11:37.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In the recount of our history.
00:11:38.910 --> 00:11:42.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because, as I said she was sitting in the back of the bus.
00:11:42.690 --> 00:11:55.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Go back and look at the history, what a difference, it would have made too many of the black brown white students if they had known that the civil rights movement was a planned movement.
00:11:56.370 --> 00:12:06.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that there was a white man involved in the movement, what a difference, it would make if folks knew about Ruby hit Ruby bridges and it was taught in school.
00:12:06.780 --> 00:12:29.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And it was taught that a white woman also was involved in the civil rights movement, what a difference, it would make to the ways in which our children show up today, so I want to invite you to do two things is to think about what you're willing to sacrifice for this movement and also.
00:12:31.020 --> 00:12:45.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To think about the ways in which you need to go back and unlearn some of your history and learn the truth of our history, in order for it to encourage you to move ahead.
00:12:47.730 --> 00:12:55.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I want to invite you, of course, to pick up my latest book dismantling racism healing separation from the inside out.
00:12:55.980 --> 00:13:10.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But also, I want you to encourage you to take part in my upcoming six week class that begins on Sep tember 14th you can go to my website it's sacred intelligence calm to find out more information about the book.
00:13:11.790 --> 00:13:31.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And about the classes, that I offer, we are going to take a break, and when we return, I am going to continue my conversation with boys and hodgson and we're going to be talking about taking responsibility for white male fragility we'll be right back with the dismantle racism show.
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00:15:46.740 --> 00:16:03.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are back with the dismantle racism show i'm so excited to have my guests back on again today, with an oxen boys in is the communications director for the mankind project, which is a nonprofit organization and.
00:16:04.470 --> 00:16:22.860 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i'm really grateful for his return to the show, I want to also say that he is the author of the new macho so it's not a surprise that he is coming back to continue the conversation that we were having on white male fragility and we.
00:16:23.520 --> 00:16:30.180 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: had an interesting conversation after the show ended because I continue to ask him some questions.
00:16:30.990 --> 00:16:48.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I want to pick up on those questions that we had after the show, but before I do that wasn't I want to welcome you to the show, and I want to see if you had any thoughts or reflections based on the first part of the show.
00:16:50.310 --> 00:16:54.300 Boysen Hodgson: Thank you so much i'm glad to be back with you.
00:16:55.500 --> 00:17:03.600 Boysen Hodgson: And yeah I was reflecting this morning, while out walking the dogs and and speaking with my wife and.
00:17:04.710 --> 00:17:12.210 Boysen Hodgson: About okay So here we did this once talked about leaning in to white male fertility, what else is there.
00:17:13.290 --> 00:17:29.070 Boysen Hodgson: And we just engaged with the conversation again and today i'd really like to go into the semantics, and the bodily experience that I think white men, I think all of us, I think all of us have work to do.
00:17:29.610 --> 00:17:38.940 Boysen Hodgson: In our bodies around this stuff and I think that you know, the first question that we're going to ask when we come back about being afraid to offend.
00:17:39.990 --> 00:17:41.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I think he asked the question yeah.
00:17:42.540 --> 00:17:46.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah so when when we got off our last.
00:17:48.180 --> 00:17:58.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Show together, one of the things that boys in you said during the show was being afraid to come on the show like you were a little fearful, you know about coming on.
00:17:59.010 --> 00:18:08.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You are not the first white man to say that to me even white men who i've tried to get on the show will say to me well i'm a little afraid.
00:18:09.990 --> 00:18:22.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And what and my response to you was that you know me right, be we we had a chance to interview before you ever came on the show get to know each other.
00:18:23.100 --> 00:18:37.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: A little bit, and so you know i'm not going to leave you out there just floundering I will you know push a bit and your response to me, I just want to share what your response was in case you forgot exactly what it was what your response was.
00:18:39.270 --> 00:18:42.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: One I don't want to offend you.
00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:50.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And to being afraid of white men I don't want white men to come after me yeah.
00:18:51.930 --> 00:19:01.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I know how that hit me as a person of color but i'd like you to talk about that a little bit say more about what you mean by that.
00:19:02.040 --> 00:19:18.840 Boysen Hodgson: yeah that's great and it very quickly jumps if we could keep it in political context and I don't think that it starts in the political context, because I think a lot of us, men in general white men in particular.
00:19:20.130 --> 00:19:31.650 Boysen Hodgson: We start learning social emotional learning right we start learning from a very young age, that this is what it means to be a boy, this is what it means to be a white boy.
00:19:32.670 --> 00:19:37.470 Boysen Hodgson: And a lot of those things mean don't mess, with the system.
00:19:40.410 --> 00:20:00.450 Boysen Hodgson: Do this don't do that say this don't say that and, as we engage as i've grown up and, as I engage in these conversations what I come to recognize is that a lot of the resistance, you know stay in your lane kind of resistance comes from other white men.
00:20:01.530 --> 00:20:05.400 Boysen Hodgson: Like having conversations with with men.
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:25.020 Boysen Hodgson: Who are very used to their way of understanding the world very used to their way of reinforcing systemic stuff patriarchy racism sexism casual misogyny homophobia, all of these things right.
00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.550 Boysen Hodgson: If you start to veer out of those lanes.
00:20:31.020 --> 00:20:36.720 Boysen Hodgson: Then you will very quickly get the feedback from the men around you.
00:20:38.040 --> 00:20:40.650 Boysen Hodgson: That no like no.
00:20:41.130 --> 00:20:55.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You cannot do that yeah so it's interesting that you say that because you know, so I shared that with a couple of black women, in particular, I know I share with them your response and one of them said well hmm.
00:20:56.940 --> 00:21:15.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: white men are afraid of white men white women are afraid of white men and then black and brown people are taught to be afraid of white men so just think about the weight of that think about how really messed up, that is, that we're all tiptoeing around to some extent.
00:21:16.320 --> 00:21:20.040 Boysen Hodgson: Why ourselves we're tiptoeing around ourselves.
00:21:20.040 --> 00:21:20.340 Boysen Hodgson: Right.
00:21:20.490 --> 00:21:34.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: back, we think about how like that just sounds crazy I know as a psychologist i'm not supposed to use that that that word but it just sounds chaotic even to just listen to it, it, so I really do.
00:21:35.910 --> 00:21:45.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Talk about being in your body, even now, just the feeling and the energy of that does not feel good in my body.
00:21:47.640 --> 00:22:00.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because it feels so weighty to know that everybody is already waiting for me as an African American person, but the weightiness of how our world is so really just.
00:22:02.250 --> 00:22:08.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: messed up that that white men are turning in on themselves that's basically what you're saying.
00:22:09.450 --> 00:22:14.760 Boysen Hodgson: We absolutely do we absolutely do and and at.
00:22:15.870 --> 00:22:30.540 Boysen Hodgson: At the same time there's also a relaxation and there's an ability to kind of be a little more free when I look in look at that and say well it's not that man that i'm afraid of it's the programming.
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:54.000 Boysen Hodgson: it's the systemic stuff you know, like what do I want I don't want to be called out as a traitor to all of the programming that was passed down generation upon generation upon generation into white this right this fictional thing.
00:22:55.170 --> 00:23:12.660 Boysen Hodgson: Right and the hierarchy and the dominance culture and like for a white SIS gendered heterosexual man like I got the programming that your role on the planet is to be on top.
00:23:13.650 --> 00:23:18.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So I have to you know here's one of the things that's coming up for me, though, as you're saying this.
00:23:19.650 --> 00:23:30.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because your work in the mankind project is really about pushing back against the programming, yes, so healing is the unlearning and the healing.
00:23:31.530 --> 00:23:40.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah i'm curious whether you have the same fear because you're learning and changing a system of patriarchy.
00:23:41.430 --> 00:24:01.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is your fear about changing that system, the same thing as it is about changing racial structures, because I am wondering whether you feel the same fear when you go on a radio show, and you talk about you know masculinity absolutely.
00:24:01.320 --> 00:24:10.860 Boysen Hodgson: yeah and I think they're intimately tied together like I think it's so it's an intersection conversation right it's it I can't really decouple.
00:24:11.370 --> 00:24:30.330 Boysen Hodgson: Those two things because I get the same unconscious programming about race as i've gotten about masculinity in many ways right and more i've been i've been called a trader demand trader demand hood trader to masculinity a lot.
00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:34.110 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Over the last 20 years mm hmm.
00:24:34.350 --> 00:24:53.760 Boysen Hodgson: Because i'm saying these radical ideas like hey dude you it's okay to be vulnerable it's okay to bring your full self to a relationship it's okay to cry it's okay to feel weakness it's okay to connect deeply with other people so okay to show to take off the mask.
00:24:54.930 --> 00:24:55.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: well.
00:24:56.430 --> 00:24:56.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and
00:24:56.760 --> 00:25:01.290 Boysen Hodgson: Everything that I just said translates directly into conversations about race to.
00:25:01.800 --> 00:25:02.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes.
00:25:03.390 --> 00:25:06.540 Boysen Hodgson: I wait for me to for me to not know.
00:25:07.170 --> 00:25:09.150 Boysen Hodgson: it's okay for me to feel vulnerable.
00:25:09.390 --> 00:25:19.170 Boysen Hodgson: it's okay for me to feel the sadness and the weight of the real history as you were talking about in the introduction right it's okay.
00:25:19.980 --> 00:25:41.760 Boysen Hodgson: To be with those things, because what the culture tells me is no don't right and there's a whole lot of messaging and media and everything out there, right now, saying don't look at that don't think about that don't go for the truth on that don't look at the facts on that.
00:25:42.180 --> 00:25:43.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: mm hmm you know.
00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:46.080 Boysen Hodgson: as a way of resisting.
00:25:47.280 --> 00:25:48.300 Boysen Hodgson: The discomfort.
00:25:48.780 --> 00:25:54.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that's going to come up and a quite frankly would be just much easier, not to look at it right.
00:25:55.020 --> 00:25:57.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But but here's what I do I make sure that I.
00:25:57.330 --> 00:26:00.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: point out before we have another quick break is that.
00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:16.110 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: If we are going to eradicate these systems if we are going to unlearn that this programming, we have to move in spite of the fear, and so I want to thank you for coming back a second time.
00:26:16.650 --> 00:26:27.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Being in that space of discomfort and saying that this is important work that we have to do so, I want to really.
00:26:28.470 --> 00:26:43.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Talk when we come back have this conversation about what it feels like in the body and the work that you do around, how do you move through that, how do you move through that discomfort and keep.
00:26:44.580 --> 00:26:51.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Speaking truth to power, particularly as it relates to me to to race and patriarchy but also teaching about.
00:26:53.490 --> 00:26:55.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: This White male fragility.
00:26:56.820 --> 00:27:07.530 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That you're trying to protect, on the one hand, by not rocking the boat yeah but at the same time saying wait a minute gotta move past that and.
00:27:08.310 --> 00:27:21.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: change some things to make the world a better place right yeah so I want to talk about that when we come back we're going to take another quick break we'll be right back this is the dismantle racism show my guest today is boys and hodgson we'll be right back.
00:27:26.340 --> 00:27:27.450 Boysen Hodgson: To the podcast.
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00:29:26.580 --> 00:29:33.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're back with the dismantle racism show before the break I was talking with my guest boys and hodgson about white male.
00:29:34.410 --> 00:29:47.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: fragility and this fear of offending white men and boys and do it mention about this feeling, you know being present with the feelings in our bodies around.
00:29:48.180 --> 00:29:54.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: These conversations and around the reprogramming and I also mentioned to you just in fact.
00:29:55.500 --> 00:30:11.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That there were feelings in my body, even just with this conference, is why I do a meditation at the beginning of this show to sort of help us stay grounded so talk to me a little bit about what you mean about being aware of you know, present with our bodies.
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:26.310 Boysen Hodgson: Yes, present with our bodies right, so a lot of the reactivity and reactions that we get when we start to have conversations about these really difficult topics like racism right.
00:30:27.150 --> 00:30:38.700 Boysen Hodgson: The knee jerk reactions are are often going to be very cognitive very like well it wasn't me what was it I didn't do that you know it's trying to push away.
00:30:39.810 --> 00:30:45.660 Boysen Hodgson: Because if I don't do that if I don't as quickly as possible cognitively push it away.
00:30:45.960 --> 00:31:03.750 Boysen Hodgson: Then there are other parts of my brain in my body that are going to get triggered into what's actually happening right, so a lot of white men, a lot of people in general react with fight flight freeze to these conversations right fight fight flight freeze or a piece is.
00:31:03.810 --> 00:31:05.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Also really good one right.
00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:16.470 Boysen Hodgson: When okay recognize in my body what am I experiencing in my body, and this is really the heart of the mankind projects work.
00:31:16.950 --> 00:31:32.640 Boysen Hodgson: With all of these top of what am I experiencing in my body, I have tension in my chest, I have butterflies in my belly my ears are hot you know what does that mean and to be able to start to put language to.
00:31:33.810 --> 00:31:49.530 Boysen Hodgson: and understand what's going on in my body, so that I can begin to heal it and I actually did a little acronym thing with heal today, so that we can play with it, so when I start first get honest about what's happening ah.
00:31:52.590 --> 00:32:04.440 Boysen Hodgson: And then embody it breathe into that, where do you feel that in your body, what does it feel like what does it look like what is it connected to do you remember other times when your body felt like that.
00:32:06.300 --> 00:32:19.200 Boysen Hodgson: breathe in really go into it and then do the work to not try and dominate it we've been taught as men to dominate our emotional embodied experiences and push it down.
00:32:20.280 --> 00:32:27.360 Boysen Hodgson: turn it off shove, it away, you know fight through it man up.
00:32:29.820 --> 00:32:32.880 Boysen Hodgson: accept what you're feeling as real.
00:32:34.140 --> 00:32:44.190 Boysen Hodgson: and learn to sell validate and learn to build your pain tolerance learn to build the tolerance in your own body to the discomfort of your emotions.
00:32:45.330 --> 00:32:57.660 Boysen Hodgson: When we are in these difficult conversations and then learn more l right and then learn more about what you can do differently.
00:32:59.280 --> 00:33:10.710 Boysen Hodgson: In re patterning your body, so that it's like Okay, a Reverend Dr tlc just called me out for saying something awkward what's my immediate response.
00:33:12.810 --> 00:33:16.080 Boysen Hodgson: Okay, my normal reaction a piece of piece of piece of piece.
00:33:16.800 --> 00:33:19.140 Boysen Hodgson: Make nice make nice make okay now stop that.
00:33:21.300 --> 00:33:25.230 Boysen Hodgson: breathing deep down into my body, this is what i'm feeling right now.
00:33:26.580 --> 00:33:30.120 Boysen Hodgson: wow what's underneath that deep caring.
00:33:32.670 --> 00:33:39.870 Boysen Hodgson: care about this conversation I care about this connection I care about it wow, what can I learn here.
00:33:43.080 --> 00:33:52.770 Boysen Hodgson: And that's like men are we are trained out of learning these skills we don't get social emotional learning for this stuff and i'm not going to just limit this to men either.
00:33:53.460 --> 00:34:00.210 Boysen Hodgson: Because I see a whole lot of young women out in the world and non binary folks we're all getting trained out of this stuff.
00:34:00.420 --> 00:34:03.360 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Oh we're all socialized into a system.
00:34:03.570 --> 00:34:03.990 Boysen Hodgson: yeah we've.
00:34:04.080 --> 00:34:06.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: All been actually it's so interesting because.
00:34:08.100 --> 00:34:16.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I have a colleague who we We often talk about just as people were identify ourselves as women that we've all been sold a bill of goods.
00:34:17.550 --> 00:34:26.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So, like from having to take the last name of the person that we marry just this is one thing right, you know it's.
00:34:26.820 --> 00:34:38.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: All in this vortex we're all in the system, which is why, when people say well i'm not racist you're in a system that perpetuates racism you're born into it.
00:34:39.090 --> 00:34:42.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And some of us are born into a privileged status and others are not.
00:34:42.930 --> 00:35:02.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So what do we do with this, I just want to say, I really, really love your acronym for heal you know, honest and body, except and learn I really like that, but what I wonder as you're talking, because all this sounds great and it's a wonderful process but.
00:35:03.540 --> 00:35:13.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What do you do to get men to that point where they can say i'm ready to do this work.
00:35:14.310 --> 00:35:27.480 Boysen Hodgson: that's really great um I think for most men what gets us there and what got me there was not a conversation about racism what got me there was personal pain in my life.
00:35:29.190 --> 00:35:31.860 Boysen Hodgson: Right sold a bill of goods man.
00:35:33.420 --> 00:35:34.290 Boysen Hodgson: You just said it.
00:35:35.670 --> 00:35:45.030 Boysen Hodgson: I was told that if I did this, and took this step and acted like this and did these things that I was going to get xyz that didn't work out.
00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:55.950 Boysen Hodgson: And I think a lot of us end up in our lives, I think, women end up in this place, I think the me to movement was a supreme example of women ending up in a place like you told me if I.
00:35:56.490 --> 00:36:03.660 Boysen Hodgson: was nice and kind and appeasing and smiled and was that that this these awful things wouldn't happen to me.
00:36:04.050 --> 00:36:04.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: mm hmm.
00:36:05.250 --> 00:36:07.740 Boysen Hodgson: Well nope that didn't work out.
00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:10.380 Boysen Hodgson: So screw it i'm gonna burn it down.
00:36:12.270 --> 00:36:12.900 Boysen Hodgson: Good on you.
00:36:14.040 --> 00:36:15.210 Boysen Hodgson: That we need more of that.
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:23.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, we do, and I just want to say something, since you, since you brought up me to movement and I always think that it's important to.
00:36:25.350 --> 00:36:35.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: also offer information as well, so the me to movement actually was started by a black white woman right upper right and it would started around paying attention to.
00:36:35.910 --> 00:36:44.190 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: what was happening to black women as it related to sexual assault, so it wasn't even so much of we've got to play Nice because I wanted to tell you from a.
00:36:44.580 --> 00:36:48.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: A woman perspective we've also known that we've had to play.
00:36:49.050 --> 00:37:02.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The game and so nice it's sad to think that playing nice meant for some women, as we know, when there was this sudden recognition of me to movement that some women did had to really sort of.
00:37:03.240 --> 00:37:09.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Almost sell their souls to not tell when something happened to them right because they knew.
00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:22.170 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: They knew absolutely that their voices would not be heard, and so, but I don't want to get off into the me to move because that's a whole conversation in and of itself yeah but what I do want to say it's just.
00:37:23.250 --> 00:37:36.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know what amazes me about this conversation boys and about white men being fearful of other white men and i've seen it over and over and various ways like I i'm always amazed.
00:37:36.630 --> 00:37:44.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: When I do work with white men around the low self esteem, that they have are always feeling like you're not good enough.
00:37:45.450 --> 00:37:46.590 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I think that.
00:37:46.650 --> 00:37:56.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: it's always interesting to me as a black woman when white men are quote unquote sort of you know at the top.
00:37:56.820 --> 00:38:07.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: right and it always amazes me to see that insecurity and white men, even with having the most privilege in the world.
00:38:08.550 --> 00:38:31.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But then what i'm also amazed by is this fragility that we're talking about when it's also white men who try to stop everybody else and keep everybody else at the bottom so it's like these two different you know these this this this polarization here, even within itself.
00:38:33.030 --> 00:38:34.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And it's insanity.
00:38:35.910 --> 00:38:43.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because again it's the white men who are doing the most pushing I would say so, what do you think about that.
00:38:45.030 --> 00:38:47.520 Boysen Hodgson: I think we're told that that's what it takes.
00:38:49.080 --> 00:39:00.660 Boysen Hodgson: Right, like in order to get to that position in order to get to the top of the pyramid, we have to dominate everyone else around us, including ourselves.
00:39:02.190 --> 00:39:06.540 Boysen Hodgson: Right and then underneath that always coexists.
00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:26.490 Boysen Hodgson: The human experience of sadness vulnerability not feeling good enough feeling fundamentally broken feeling disconnected feeling lonely feeling right, but those are also things that we are taught to dominate.
00:39:27.810 --> 00:39:42.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so, do you believe, if you're taught to dominate that if you're taught to dominate all of those feelings that are going on in the inside of you right, it might be telling you what you're doing is is evil, you know when there's oppression happening.
00:39:43.650 --> 00:39:47.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Your your your APP do you do feel like.
00:39:48.660 --> 00:39:56.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: As i'm hearing your conversation that there has to be this huge disconnection with humanity.
00:39:57.240 --> 00:40:08.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: there's a disconnection with yourself let's forget about humanity there's a disconnection with yourself that you can't even pay attention to in order to dominate.
00:40:10.470 --> 00:40:11.520 Boysen Hodgson: I believe that.
00:40:13.080 --> 00:40:13.650 Boysen Hodgson: We.
00:40:14.790 --> 00:40:25.800 Boysen Hodgson: In this culture in the way that we live have to are spending, most of our energy simply denying what's actually going on.
00:40:28.080 --> 00:40:33.510 Boysen Hodgson: Like the first step honesty, the first step is we've got to actually recognize.
00:40:34.740 --> 00:40:44.760 Boysen Hodgson: What we're creating recognizing the impacts of our actions, recognizing the impacts of our actions on each other, recognizing on the planet, recognizing for our kids.
00:40:46.080 --> 00:40:53.730 Boysen Hodgson: record, you know recognize the impact of those actions and it takes an enormous amount of energy to try and keep those feelings down.
00:40:54.150 --> 00:41:10.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, I imagine that it doesn't it wasn't what i'm actually sitting here thinking about is how sad, is it to be so disconnected with WHO one is even even on a spiritual level, because you know why about that yeah that is that.
00:41:12.120 --> 00:41:17.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And as you're talking i'm just thinking about how great it feels to be a black woman.
00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:30.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How great it is to live in my blackness and to know who, I am as a spiritual being as a soul being as a person, because I don't have to worry about finding down.
00:41:31.110 --> 00:41:40.830 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Those fears I don't have now does that mean that I don't have to deal with stuff on the outside absolutely I have to deal with racism right, but I know who I am.
00:41:41.490 --> 00:41:53.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I can fully embrace who I am regardless of what the world tells me is so what I want to say is that, in doing this work of dismantling racism and changing.
00:41:54.930 --> 00:42:07.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Even the ways in which men enter into this space white men, in particular, it really takes getting connected with oneself again and feel good about where you are.
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:08.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, and.
00:42:09.990 --> 00:42:15.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, and I just gonna say, because if white men can't do that they can't engage in this work.
00:42:17.070 --> 00:42:26.130 Boysen Hodgson: 100% yeah like the answer is not feel guilty and ashamed and shitty about yourself all the time, because then you're just going to.
00:42:26.580 --> 00:42:41.520 Boysen Hodgson: perpetuate more of the same stuff on yourself and other people like the point of healing is to get to the place where I can sit in presence and acceptance to recognize I have trauma and you do too.
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:49.590 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hmm so wasn't I have to ask you this, we really actually have to take a break, but I want to know this before the break, would you say.
00:42:50.640 --> 00:43:09.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That given the work that you do and even with folks coming after you would you say you feel a lot better now about who you are as an individual than you did before you decided to take ownership, for your own bronner ability and fragility and.
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:13.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The mess, you were in before doing work.
00:43:16.110 --> 00:43:23.670 Boysen Hodgson: I feel awake and alive and open hearted and That to me is like the definition of sacred.
00:43:25.830 --> 00:43:29.340 Boysen Hodgson: Is an embodied experience of openness to reality.
00:43:31.110 --> 00:43:37.110 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah whoa boy isn't cool, thank you, we have to take a quick break we'll be right back.
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00:45:37.650 --> 00:45:47.310 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are back and boys and before the break, we were just talking about this idea of guilt and shame and.
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:59.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: being present with our bodies and so much more before the break and I was thinking about this word guilt that you use and often when I work with people around.
00:46:00.300 --> 00:46:08.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: white people, in particular, with just helping them to be more comfortable with having the conversations about race and aging and dismantling racism guilt.
00:46:10.890 --> 00:46:15.420 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: people tend to think about their ancestry.
00:46:17.220 --> 00:46:32.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And even though they know that they perhaps we're not the ones to have enslaved people folks have a history some folks have a history of their family in slaving people and so that sometimes it's a Blocker.
00:46:33.660 --> 00:46:54.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To them for doing this work and I often say that you have the ability to change what happen, and if you can't change that time period right change the system so talk to me a little bit about maybe what your family history was and men do you get the.
00:46:54.750 --> 00:46:58.230 Boysen Hodgson: feeling that there's been a conversation about this outside of the show folks.
00:46:58.260 --> 00:46:58.560 Yes.
00:46:59.670 --> 00:47:00.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes.
00:47:00.300 --> 00:47:01.860 Boysen Hodgson: yeah, so I am.
00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:03.780 Boysen Hodgson: I am.
00:47:05.010 --> 00:47:19.530 Boysen Hodgson: An ancestry buff it's something that I started doing some research on it around the same time, that my grandmother turned 91, of the other distant cousins in the family, known as uncle hank.
00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:40.500 Boysen Hodgson: brought forward whole bunch of paperwork from the 1860s 1850s 1860s and I started doing an ancestry research at that time, and my family my ancestors have been on this land, since the 1640s.
00:47:42.090 --> 00:47:54.750 Boysen Hodgson: in Virginia and then spreading out from Virginia two parts of the of the Midwest and then also going South and what i've learned is that there is a whole wing of my family on my matrilineal side.
00:47:55.590 --> 00:48:12.810 Boysen Hodgson: That there were multiple confederate officers and soldiers in my family and there are multiple farmers farmers on the census data multiple farmers in my family who owned enslaved people.
00:48:15.120 --> 00:48:29.190 Boysen Hodgson: And when in these conversations about yeah I didn't do that that's not me and there is a direct line from me and the privileges that I hold now.
00:48:30.450 --> 00:48:32.820 Boysen Hodgson: In the world to.
00:48:33.900 --> 00:48:35.700 Boysen Hodgson: The Labor of enslaved people.
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:40.530 Boysen Hodgson: That helped build this country that built this country.
00:48:41.850 --> 00:48:43.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right right.
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:50.490 Boysen Hodgson: And so, recognizing that I was, I was born in North Carolina a lot of my a lot of that whole side of my family was southern.
00:48:51.390 --> 00:49:03.330 Boysen Hodgson: and recognizing all the beauty and love and connection and all of that all of that stuff my grandmother was 93 when she died, and she was born, right after the civil war.
00:49:03.720 --> 00:49:05.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: mm hmm right.
00:49:06.090 --> 00:49:15.120 Boysen Hodgson: recognizing that holy shit I have a direct connection to this that doesn't have to freeze me into a space of guilt and shame.
00:49:16.830 --> 00:49:25.080 Boysen Hodgson: That can empower me into a new level of honesty and recognition about the reality of the world that helps continue the work.
00:49:27.570 --> 00:49:31.530 Boysen Hodgson: I have a vested interest in having a society that's more equal and.
00:49:31.620 --> 00:49:41.430 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Connected well, I think that you said something that was really critical and you said this before, when you were talking about your heel acronym.
00:49:42.420 --> 00:49:53.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: is to be able to acknowledge yeah well, we can acknowledge that you benefit from the privileges without saying that.
00:49:54.150 --> 00:50:06.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You were the one that enslaved people right, but in order for us to move forward, it takes this acknowledgement so when you first learned that your family had enslaved people.
00:50:08.820 --> 00:50:10.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What was your thinking.
00:50:11.520 --> 00:50:12.780 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: If you remember what.
00:50:13.890 --> 00:50:17.370 Boysen Hodgson: The the thinking, so the visceral experience.
00:50:18.390 --> 00:50:20.220 Boysen Hodgson: was, of course.
00:50:22.290 --> 00:50:45.450 Boysen Hodgson: That was the experience and then just being able to look look at you know my my grandmother's generation my great grandparents generation and to see the line I can see clearly the energetic line from plantation owning farmers in the south to how my grandmother was.
00:50:48.630 --> 00:50:58.080 Boysen Hodgson: And how that influenced my mother's behavior and how my how my mother was in the world right and then what I learned from that.
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:19.830 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I think that's critical that you were able to just sort of take that and to look back because here's what people have to understand and it's what you've been saying, through the whole show we pretty much are conditioned to be the way that we are, and our behaviors are often unconscious.
00:51:19.860 --> 00:51:31.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah, and so we show up in this world based on how our parents raised us, whether we accept or not, the way the craziest things at an event right.
00:51:32.010 --> 00:51:46.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so we show up, based on that and they show up, based on the history that they had with their parents and when you think about it we're what 159 years out of enslavement yeah it's really not that long.
00:51:46.560 --> 00:51:59.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah as a matter of fact, I only learned just this year that everyone wasn't emancipated even after what happened with the enslaved people in Texas, there was it the.
00:52:00.690 --> 00:52:08.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Actually, the emancipation proclamation did not cover everyone so take that for a bit of history.
00:52:08.670 --> 00:52:11.610 Boysen Hodgson: 13th amendment does not cover everyone.
00:52:11.670 --> 00:52:14.250 Boysen Hodgson: Exactly exception clause for.
00:52:14.670 --> 00:52:23.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Things exactly and so that's why we have to be aware of our history, but what is it you know we only have a little bit of time left, and I wonder.
00:52:24.420 --> 00:52:40.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What else would you like to add to the conversation today whether it's related to you know just this legacy trauma or related to white male fragility, what else would you want our audience to know today so.
00:52:40.710 --> 00:52:47.100 Boysen Hodgson: Just a tiny one more thing on the legacy trauma, is that we are not separate.
00:52:48.810 --> 00:52:50.640 Boysen Hodgson: Like you and I are not separate.
00:52:52.410 --> 00:52:59.730 Boysen Hodgson: I am not separate from my ancestors right I I exist in a matrix of genetic history.
00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:10.050 Boysen Hodgson: And the more that the more we learn about genetics and epigenetics, the more we learn that these kinds of traumas and experiences get passed down.
00:53:11.610 --> 00:53:13.890 Boysen Hodgson: Like those traumas didn't end.
00:53:14.670 --> 00:53:15.270 Right.
00:53:16.770 --> 00:53:37.770 Boysen Hodgson: And to recognize and I just want to acknowledge rest momentum book my grandmother's hands, so if you haven't read it go get it read much of what i'm been what much of what i'm saying is is direct reflection right this this kind of embodied understanding of trauma in all of us.
00:53:38.010 --> 00:53:38.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: mm hmm.
00:53:39.120 --> 00:53:49.860 Boysen Hodgson: And how we oftentimes, we have to get through like being a bunch of traumas bouncing off of each other in the world to have the long slow conversations we need to have.
00:53:50.520 --> 00:54:01.830 Boysen Hodgson: and on white male fragility, the last thing that I would say there is that all we really need to do as men is sit down and get honest enough not to.
00:54:02.250 --> 00:54:09.090 Boysen Hodgson: We don't have to learn to build connection to each other, we don't have to learn to experience this kind of thing we just have to recognize it.
00:54:10.380 --> 00:54:26.880 Boysen Hodgson: I was in a group on Tuesday night and there was a man sharing a feeling of fundamental brokenness those were kind of the words that he used, and I just asked the room, is there any other man in the room, who has experienced that feeling of just being broken.
00:54:27.210 --> 00:54:27.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And then.
00:54:27.750 --> 00:54:30.870 Boysen Hodgson: Every man's hand in the room went up yeah.
00:54:31.290 --> 00:54:31.650 yeah.
00:54:32.700 --> 00:54:37.020 Boysen Hodgson: We just have to recognize that we're all walking around with these masks.
00:54:37.290 --> 00:54:37.710 hmm.
00:54:38.820 --> 00:54:47.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I think, in addition to recognizing it, I think, also, I would add that, to know that there's help and there's support right so.
00:54:47.610 --> 00:54:47.940 Boysen Hodgson: They have.
00:54:47.970 --> 00:54:49.230 Boysen Hodgson: This conversation.
00:54:49.590 --> 00:55:01.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Exactly exactly what boys and I want to thank you so much for being on the show today, if you want to know how to get in touch with boys and can you please give them your information, really, really quickly.
00:55:01.680 --> 00:55:03.000 Boysen Hodgson: boys an h.com.
00:55:03.600 --> 00:55:15.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Ways an h.com get in touch with him learn more about the mankind project, I want to invite you to please go to my website sacred intelligence calm, so you can find out more about the work.
00:55:15.900 --> 00:55:25.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That, I offer stay tuned now for the conscious consultant hour with Sam liebowitz where he helps you to walk through life with the greatest of ease and joy.
00:55:26.100 --> 00:55:39.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Make today, you know tap into that sacred part of you that will help you to manifest your greatness, and the greatness of others, be well be safe, be encouraged until next time bye for now.
00:56:00.510 --> 00:56:02.940 you're listening to talk radio.
00:56:12.210 --> 00:56:12.690 Boysen Hodgson: you're muted.
00:56:17.160 --> 00:56:18.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hold on, let me just.
00:56:19.740 --> 00:56:22.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: turn off the recording here.
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