WHAT WILL THE AUDIENCE LEARN? The audience will learn how to recognize harmful actions and organizational policies, so they can call it out and encourage accountability when they see it.
EPISODE SUMMARY: Racism and prejudice often rear their ugly heads with witnesses. Racism is as deadly as it is because it often shows up in the most public of spaces: workplaces, schools, on television, in movies, and on our streets in full view of anyone passing by. How different would the world be if bystanders ceased to stand by in the midst of racist acts?
We are all potential bystanders when we do not know how to recognize racism and biased responses to it. Rev. Dr. TLC welcomes Dr. Lynn Bowes-Sperry to discuss her research in "bystander intervention", and the "paradox of power" created when systems and organizations protect their optics under the guise of being anti-discriminatory instead of protecting vulnerable people.
Tune in for this important conversation at TalkRadio.nyc or watch the Facebook Livestream by Clicking Here.
Rev. Dr. TLC reads a meditation from her book Dismantle Racism. She explains how her colleagues have told her the term Dismantle Racism is too intimidating. She says she invited individuals to dismantle racism because to change the status quo; we have to change our behavior. Rev. Dr. TLC asks her listeners to look at the racial groups in their community, school system, or social circle to find who is predominant. She asks who benefits from this system and how it impacts society on a larger scale. When you ask yourself these challenging questions, you will begin to notice the racial injustice in society. You will start to wonder where racial inequities are showing up in the world.
Rev. Dr. TLC introduces her guest, Dr. Lynn Bowes-Sperry. Dr. Lynn is a professor at Cal State East Bay. Rev. Dr. TLC shares some of Dr. Lynn’s background and some of her accolades. Rev. Dr. TLC points out that she and Dr. Lynn are good friends. Before moving to California, Rev. Dr. TLC explains that their neighborhoods in CT usually stick to their own race. Their connection was different; Dr. Lynn approached Rev. Dr. TLC and developed a friendship with her over time. Dr. Lynn explains why she dislikes the term “white trash.” She says it's another way to rank people and separate us by socioeconomic class. Rev. Dr. TLC talks about the distinction between poor white people judged by class and black people judged by the color of their skin.
Rev. Dr. TLC and Dr. Lynn continue to discuss Dr. Lynn’s research on bystander intervention. Dr. Lynn tells Rev. Dr. TLC why she dislikes the term intervention. She mentions that the word makes you feel like you are not supposed to intervene or you are not a part of the situation. Dr. Lynn believes if you see something wrong between two coworkers, it’s your responsibility to intervene because you are all a part of the same group or culture. Rev. Dr. TLC and Dr. Lynn discuss some of the obstacles that people can face when trying to intervene. They also discuss ways to get involved.
Dr. Lynn’s work was used for the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. Dr. Lynn speaks out against harassment and explains it’s been illegal for some time though we are just recently seeing movements against it. She says it is due to the power of dynamics and people’s inability to speak up. Rev. Dr. TLC explains that in order to see change, we must do the work to dismantle racism and stop harassment in the workplace. If you would like to learn more about Dr. Lynn, you can find her on Linkedin at Lynn Bowes. Before the end of the segment, Rev. Dr. TLC encourages her audience to get involved in their community.
00:00:55.980 --> 00:01:07.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hello, and welcome to dismantle racism i'm your host the Reverend Dr tlc my goal is to help you to uncover dismantle any eradicate racism.
00:01:07.950 --> 00:01:19.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I really do want to create a world where racial equity is the norm, and I want you to help me do that we're going to get started today with our meditation.
00:01:19.470 --> 00:01:27.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And i'm going to do a combination of things today, but I will read, one of the meditations from my book on dismantling racism.
00:01:27.450 --> 00:01:36.780 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: healing separation from the inside out I begin every chapter with one but, as always, I want to invite you to start by really.
00:01:37.140 --> 00:01:49.110 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Just closing your eyes, if you can and planting your feet firmly on the floor, or on the ground if you're outside and just centering yourself in some way.
00:01:49.500 --> 00:02:06.420 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Connecting your body, if you can with the Chair that you're sitting in or if you're sitting on the floor, or the couch just connect and ground yourself and take a moment close your eyes and to find your breath.
00:02:07.740 --> 00:02:11.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And to tune into that which gives you life.
00:02:12.810 --> 00:02:14.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I taking a deep breath in.
00:02:15.900 --> 00:02:17.190 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and releasing it.
00:02:18.390 --> 00:02:32.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and connecting with your sacred intelligence that divine part of you that helps you to manifest your greatness, while helping other people to manifest their greatness.
00:02:33.600 --> 00:02:36.390 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Just really take a deep breath in.
00:02:38.460 --> 00:02:44.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And, knowing that the choices that you make to dismantle racism are important.
00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:51.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: reminding yourself that you are loved and you are love itself.
00:02:52.800 --> 00:03:01.830 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You are a part of changing the status quo, because you are connected with all of humanity.
00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:06.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Just breathe in and out.
00:03:08.130 --> 00:03:12.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Knowing that the power of one contributes to the power of community.
00:03:13.950 --> 00:03:19.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i'll take a deep breath in and out and listen to these words.
00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:33.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Empowering source give me the courage to act in a manner that works for the good of all to act in ways that are just loving and peaceful.
00:03:34.740 --> 00:03:49.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: jolt my senses awaken my heart stir my lens lift my voice reminds me that I am the manifestation of you my sacred source.
00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:55.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and must move in faith, even as I seek your divine intervention.
00:03:56.970 --> 00:04:00.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: helped me to be a part of the solution and not the problem.
00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:05.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: remind me that my silence is complicit.
00:04:06.720 --> 00:04:15.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Give me the strength, courage and awareness, to do what I can with who I can, and for whom I can.
00:04:17.370 --> 00:04:19.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Let me be a light within the world.
00:04:20.550 --> 00:04:29.130 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In my words and in my deeds, and so it is Shay and amen.
00:04:31.770 --> 00:04:43.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I am so delighted that you've taken the time to be with me this morning, and one of the things that I want to really talk about before I get too.
00:04:44.400 --> 00:05:02.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Much into the show is that, often, my colleagues and friends will tell me that terrell and when you say dismantling racism it's too overwhelming it's too big to really think about because can we really get rid of racism.
00:05:02.640 --> 00:05:13.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and actually it paralyzes some people to think about trying to dismantle racism, because they believe there's nothing that I can do about it.
00:05:15.060 --> 00:05:28.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I get it, I understand, especially if you don't know what to do, or even how to recognize racism when it's happening, but here's what I want you to keep in mind.
00:05:30.420 --> 00:05:48.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You cannot change the entire system of racism, that is not what i'm asking you to do when I invite you to join me in the movement of dismantling racism, but I do want you to know that you are a key part of changing the status quo.
00:05:50.280 --> 00:05:52.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I invite you to start with yourself.
00:05:54.150 --> 00:06:06.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that's it's about it involves looking at how racism shows up in your life and in your community, and it involves you asking yourself a hard questions.
00:06:07.080 --> 00:06:15.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: really thinking about in what ways, do you perpetuate a system of racism unknowingly and even knowingly.
00:06:16.050 --> 00:06:22.800 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: As I talked about in my book on dismantling racism, you really have to heal racial separation.
00:06:23.490 --> 00:06:39.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: by looking at yourself it's an inside out job for all of us, we have to take a look at what are the things that we need to change about our thoughts, what are the things that we need to change about our behavior in order for us to dismantle racism.
00:06:41.010 --> 00:06:57.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It requires us to become conscious of the ways in which racism exists not only in society, but in our lives and our families in our Community, it requires us to pay attention.
00:06:57.960 --> 00:07:03.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So I want you to think for a minute about the ways in which racism impacts your life.
00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:09.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I know instantly you're going to start thinking about the negative ways that racism impacts your life.
00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:26.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But actually racism impacts our lives, even in positive ways, because there are some who benefit from racism and racist practices and others who do not so, for instance, I might ask you to look at your community.
00:07:27.960 --> 00:07:48.180 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Look at your school system, what is the racial group that's predominant in your school district, for instance, and I would invite you to think about this there's predominantly one racial group who benefits from that particular scenario.
00:07:49.980 --> 00:07:59.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How does it benefit the larger society, in fact, how does it impact the larger society, then ask yourself the question.
00:08:00.420 --> 00:08:18.420 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, who is who is impacted in a negative sets by what's happening with that scenario, and so, if you start to ask yourself a series of questions you will start to notice more and more what's the backdrop in society.
00:08:19.290 --> 00:08:31.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: If you live in a what all white neighborhood ask yourself why is this neighborhood all white, for instance, even if it's a predominantly black or Latina area, you might say, why is this the case.
00:08:32.430 --> 00:08:41.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Where is racial equity showing up or in equities showing up what is the difference between all white neighborhoods versus all.
00:08:42.000 --> 00:09:05.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: black or Latino neighborhoods or or Asian or native American even, what are the disparities, who benefits, whose privilege by it, and then the way you begin to say how can I dismantle racism is you ask yourself this key question what's my role in all of this.
00:09:06.480 --> 00:09:15.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And then I invite you to ask yourself this really, really real question and that question is, do I want to change the system.
00:09:16.890 --> 00:09:25.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How will it change things for me, am I willing to give up some of my privileges if the system changes.
00:09:26.880 --> 00:09:28.590 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What will happen if I don't.
00:09:29.880 --> 00:09:45.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And then I also want you to keep in mind that often it doesn't mean that you have to give up your privileges doesn't mean that you have to give up the ways in which you live, your life, it means becoming more inclusive.
00:09:46.890 --> 00:10:03.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To allow other people to come in to allow other people to benefit because trust me when I benefit from what's happening in society, you benefit as well, what would it be like if the world was all just the same.
00:10:04.890 --> 00:10:15.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: will not grow beyond where we are, and so I invite you to think about starting really, really small in dismantling racism.
00:10:16.110 --> 00:10:28.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: If you think about starting small, it will become manageable for you don't think about necessarily starting by taking down a whole system, do the work that you need to do on yourself.
00:10:29.280 --> 00:10:44.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Read the books that you need to read take the courses that you need to read a take I often talk about the courses that I offer on dismantling racism, I invite you to go to sacred intelligence calm find out more about the courses, I offer.
00:10:45.420 --> 00:10:57.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Take the courses that are offered by your company take the opportunity to learn more about the injustices and the inequities that show up in this world.
00:10:59.220 --> 00:11:06.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: take the opportunity to do the personal work the self development work that you need to do.
00:11:07.920 --> 00:11:22.410 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So it's also important for you to know when you think about dismantling racism that you are not alone in this work in my book, I actually talked about it being a shared movement for us.
00:11:23.970 --> 00:11:46.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The only way I can do the work that I do on dismantling racism is because I know that there are other people in the movement with me, there are other people who want to make sure that equity exist for all their other people who are trying very hard to erase the disparities that exist.
00:11:47.490 --> 00:12:01.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But there are also people who support me in my day to day there are people who support me on the radio show their people who support me and the work that I do just overall.
00:12:02.610 --> 00:12:20.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I have people that I bounce ideas off of their people who helped me with carrying this movement forward so know that whenever you are truly interested in dismantling racism, you are not walking alone there are people who want to collaborate with you.
00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:32.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I would love to be one of those people to collaborate with you and to walk you through this journey, but there are many, many of us out there who are doing this work find somebody who will walk with you.
00:12:35.100 --> 00:12:49.290 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Today i'm really excited to have one of my guests on the show who's not only a colleague and a friend, and we are going to spend some time talking about the paradox of power.
00:12:50.100 --> 00:13:00.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're going to take a quick break and when I come back, I want to introduce you to my guest Dr Lin bose sperry stay tuned we'll be right back.
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00:15:16.050 --> 00:15:27.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're back with the dismantle racism show i'm your host Reverend Dr T llc, and today I am here with my guest Dr Lin bose sperry and we're going to be taking a look at.
00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:33.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: bystander intervention, because we know that racism and prejudice often rear.
00:15:33.630 --> 00:15:42.780 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: their ugly heads with witnesses around and So what do we do, how do we engage in a process of intervening when we see something happens.
00:15:43.050 --> 00:15:54.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So my guest Dr Lynn bose stereo or Dr bs as she's sometimes called by her students and not because she's full of bs but really just because.
00:15:54.780 --> 00:16:04.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Those are her initials but she brings a lot of power to the work that she does on bystander intervention and really looking at.
00:16:05.460 --> 00:16:16.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Harassment sexual harassment, to be, in fact, but she is an associate professor of management at California State University East bay and she is also a management consultant.
00:16:17.250 --> 00:16:28.530 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Her research on bystander intervention helps organizations, improve their ability to manage problematic behavior before it escalates to illegal harassment.
00:16:28.890 --> 00:16:45.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Her work has been published and academic journals and it has been used by the US equal employment opportunity Commission Canadian Parliament Australian humanity, human rights commission and various media outlets, such as the Los Angeles Times.
00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:54.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: She is a phenomenal individual and they'll learn a bit more about her but Dr Lynn welcome to the show.
00:16:57.270 --> 00:16:58.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You have to unmute yourself.
00:17:00.660 --> 00:17:06.330 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Yes, i'm muting myself good Thank you and i'm honored to be a guest on your show.
00:17:07.380 --> 00:17:20.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So I want to just tell our listeners um you know, Dr Lin or Dr bs are really Lynn as I know you that we are actually really, really good friends and.
00:17:21.330 --> 00:17:33.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I think it's really important, I was telling you right before the show, I was watching something where they were asking white people did they have a black friend and they had to stop and think about oh.
00:17:33.780 --> 00:17:43.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: don't have a black friend and what's their name right, and if you have to stop and think about whether you have a black friend, you probably don't have a black friend, you have a black acquaintance but.
00:17:44.280 --> 00:17:58.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Lynn and I have been friends for at least 18 years, maybe 19 years, maybe even 20 years I don't know our kids were in preschool together.
00:17:59.280 --> 00:18:05.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And what was interesting about it is, is that in our neck of the woods of the woods, even though she's in California now.
00:18:06.060 --> 00:18:19.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Our area can be very clannish, and by that I mean people sort of stick with their own it doesn't matter the color they just stick with their own, but there was something about our connection.
00:18:20.070 --> 00:18:28.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Where we became friends and she actually noticed me first and then she eventually introduced me to her mom as from buddy.
00:18:28.590 --> 00:18:38.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: friend, I will never forget that she's like mom This is my friend in the making, because we not get reached that that friendship level get.
00:18:39.180 --> 00:18:51.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What I think is so critical is how you and I just sort of navigated the system where we are in New England where people kind of stay in their own parts, we just navigated the system and.
00:18:52.830 --> 00:18:53.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: became friends.
00:18:54.990 --> 00:19:06.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I think that's largely because of you actually so I just want to thank you for that and our end and i'm just you looking beyond.
00:19:08.610 --> 00:19:22.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: color looking beyond anything, because at the time you didn't even know that we shared similarities in terms of both being PhDs and that sort of things thing she just saw this brilliant woman she wanted to dance with but.
00:19:23.430 --> 00:19:36.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: When I just want to say there's actually something that you taught me and I have talked about this before, to you, and so I think you might remember it because Linda and I also began to talk about race right away.
00:19:37.950 --> 00:19:54.900 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I share this stories with the people who are listening, because I want folks to understand it doesn't have to be hard for us to reach across the lines, all you have to do is just open your mouth up and start talking and figure out what you have in common.
00:19:56.070 --> 00:20:05.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I remember riding with you one day when and we were in the car, I think, maybe I was on my way to do a training i'm not sure your university that.
00:20:06.210 --> 00:20:11.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You said to me that you didn't like the word white trash Do you remember that conversation.
00:20:11.850 --> 00:20:12.750 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Yes, I do.
00:20:13.050 --> 00:20:13.590 and
00:20:14.760 --> 00:20:17.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and tell people why you don't like that word.
00:20:18.450 --> 00:20:25.530 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Okay, well, there are many reasons I don't like that word, but in the context of race, the reason I don't like it is because.
00:20:25.740 --> 00:20:39.720 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: The idea that you have to put white trash it implies that everyone else's trash but you know most white people aren't, so we need to distinguish this group of white people who are trashy so it's just another way to.
00:20:40.470 --> 00:20:51.330 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: put us into groups that one's based on class, but for me the class piece is very important, but since we're talking about race today it's the implication of what it means for everyone else who's not why.
00:20:51.870 --> 00:21:01.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right and exactly so it's both and right, because one of the things that's been really hard for people white people who have grown up.
00:21:01.590 --> 00:21:14.010 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Without a lot of money who've grown up in poverty there's always been this conversation of but I was treated X, Y and Z, and so they don't think it's based on race, they think it's based on class.
00:21:14.310 --> 00:21:21.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And I will say listen, I understand that poor white people in this country, have a hard way to go, I get that.
00:21:22.830 --> 00:21:32.070 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: here's the distinction that I try to make what i'm teaching right my classes, is that anytime you as a white person, if you put on that suit.
00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:41.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And you go over into that other class and people don't know that you came from poverty at that particular point.
00:21:42.300 --> 00:21:51.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Things are not equal between us anymore right you're not treated from this place of oppression, however, I do know the mindset.
00:21:51.720 --> 00:22:01.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: of a person who's poor and white can still be the same because i've done this work long enough to know that people still hold on to those identities that they have so.
00:22:02.460 --> 00:22:12.180 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But what we're here today because we want to talk about the important work that you do, but I just want to thank you for um really Lynn.
00:22:12.600 --> 00:22:21.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The work that you do in general, but the work that you do from a human being and a soul level, you see people.
00:22:21.930 --> 00:22:30.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And that's what dismantling racism is about seeing people showing up as our true authentic selves and not even caring.
00:22:31.110 --> 00:22:42.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What what color that person is but recognizing that there are differences that impact us right, and so I think that that's been the beauty of.
00:22:42.630 --> 00:22:54.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: of our friendship over the over the years, so I thank you for that and that and the parties that that we've had at one another's houses so so unless let's just jump into it um.
00:22:55.140 --> 00:23:11.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know I want to make sure that we have time to really discuss your work on bystander intervention tell us a little bit about what led you to actually begin studying bystander intervention and looking at it from the perspective of harassment and discrimination.
00:23:12.930 --> 00:23:20.730 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Well, when I entered University of connecticut's PhD program, we have to think about a topic to write our dissertation on.
00:23:21.120 --> 00:23:41.370 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: And since my degrees in management, whatever I studied would have to be related to employment, or the workplace and my dissertation advisor Gary Powell focused on gender related issues, so I was like okay i'll take what i'm interested in which is essentially why people do not step up.
00:23:41.550 --> 00:23:47.700 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: When they see bad stuff going down in general, but now, since we're saying, I have a management degree.
00:23:47.970 --> 00:23:51.930 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Why don't people step up when they see bad things going down at work.
00:23:52.140 --> 00:24:08.640 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: And now we add in the gender dimension for my advisor What do people do when they see harassment and discrimination going down at work so so that's kind of the short answer, and then a little more detail just is that I refer to my family is having the justice gene.
00:24:09.270 --> 00:24:20.850 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: which has been in us from I don't know if it's genetic it's probably environmental maybe a little of both but I cannot handle seeing somebody else mistreat another person.
00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:35.640 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: And it's just the way I was raised that you get involved, but you know, usually the way we would get involved with not always the best like we might be a little too harsh and now everyone's like oh caitlin That was a little over the top, so i've learned to smooth it out, as I have aged.
00:24:35.970 --> 00:24:53.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, no one could ever accuse you of being silent, because I do know that you're going to speak up if you if you see something so tell us a little bit about what you discovered in your research in terms of just thinking about why don't why don't people get involved.
00:24:53.940 --> 00:25:10.110 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Alright, so many reasons people don't get involved and the one that is usually discussed to me is not even the most important it's something called the bystander effect or diffusion of responsibility and that's the idea that if 10 people see something.
00:25:11.430 --> 00:25:19.260 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Each person thinks the other person will step up and do something so they don't need to do it because there's nine others who can.
00:25:19.650 --> 00:25:38.400 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: And if no one steps up your one 10th responsible right if something's in people's hands versus if i'm the only one who sees it i'm 100% responsible if something you know really bad happens here, so does that exist, yes, but for me what I think more is more important, especially I study.
00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:49.500 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: The types of harassment, that are more ambiguous, because when it's egregious it's clear right, so a big piece of people not getting involved is ambiguity.
00:25:49.800 --> 00:26:02.040 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Alright, so you know that there's a typical micro aggression that's discussed about referring to a black person as articulate all right that's a lot different than somebody hanging a news.
00:26:02.580 --> 00:26:07.860 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: And these are all things that have happened within the last years, by the way these examples hanging a news.
00:26:08.280 --> 00:26:24.210 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Putting a KKK hood using every word, you can think of that's derogatory and even one really weird example of somebody simply a black man trying to use a vending machine and another person feeling the need to say hey that machine doesn't take crack money.
00:26:24.810 --> 00:26:35.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hmm so so I wonder, and these are egregious It really is they really are egregious but blend to you in your research and the work that you've done.
00:26:36.450 --> 00:26:55.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Do you find that if a white person sees another white person tying a new sprint instance over another person's locker or desk do you see other white people getting involved or do they laugh it off because they're uncomfortable and they're afraid of getting involved.
00:26:56.790 --> 00:27:04.020 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Well, I I don't know, specifically in this case, but i'll just go with you know what I know from from the general study of the area.
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:14.070 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: First of all, hanging a news is egregious alright that's that's way different than saying to somebody you're articulate you know and so.
00:27:14.610 --> 00:27:23.190 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: If somebody didn't do something when a news is being hung they are now a culprit as well, in my mind if they have seen it, because that is egregious.
00:27:23.970 --> 00:27:38.940 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: So that's the kind of situation that ironically, though, somebody might be afraid to intervene, because it's so egregious you're thinking all right, but this person is and I couldn't say bold but i'm going to say stupid.
00:27:39.360 --> 00:27:52.710 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: stupid enough to hang a noose over someone's desk or locker what might they do to me if I say something to them right, so a lot of that has to do, simply with moral what I call and I didn't make up the term moral courage.
00:27:53.010 --> 00:27:54.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know it's.
00:27:54.060 --> 00:28:04.950 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: easy to sit back and worry about something I would definitely worry about it, but the the idea of courage is doing something when you're afraid it's not.
00:28:05.520 --> 00:28:07.830 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Here it's moving forward when you are afraid.
00:28:08.250 --> 00:28:14.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: that's exactly right and here's the thing, even if you aren't going to be the kind of person to just.
00:28:14.700 --> 00:28:24.240 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: say something in that moment there's an HR person there's a supervisor there's someone that you can go to, and even if it's your supervisor doing it.
00:28:24.540 --> 00:28:27.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: there's a person above that Supervisor, who can.
00:28:27.600 --> 00:28:39.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: intervene as well Now I know that for you it's important to discuss the term involvement versus intervention, but we need to take a quick break and when we return i'd love for you to really.
00:28:39.780 --> 00:28:44.490 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: If you could just talk about the differences between those two things and why you prefer it.
00:28:44.820 --> 00:28:59.430 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are going to be right back my guest today is Dr Len bows ferry and we're really taking a look at the work that she's done around harassment and discrimination as it relates to bystander intervention we'll be right back.
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00:31:04.740 --> 00:31:25.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're back with my guest today, Dr Lin bose sperry and before the break, we were talking about some of Dr lens research on bystander intervention I asked you to tell us the difference between the term you know involvement in an intervention why you prefer that term.
00:31:26.430 --> 00:31:29.490 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: yeah so um when I hear the term intervention.
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:41.610 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: It sounds like you're interjecting yourself somewhere where you don't belong, you know, like you're a third party or a bystander, why are you getting involved in this, this is between these two people are these three people wrong.
00:31:42.180 --> 00:31:50.910 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Especially when you're at work, remember, so if you're on the street on the subway, in my opinion, if you see something you're still part of the dynamic now put that at work.
00:31:51.300 --> 00:31:57.270 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Even if you're not a supervisor if you know your coworkers are doing these types of things.
00:31:57.570 --> 00:32:07.980 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: it's not interjecting you're all part of the same group, you are part of that culture right and more and more, as you know, because of the work you do companies are trying to increase.
00:32:08.310 --> 00:32:19.200 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: inclusiveness and belonging right So if you act like you're some third party who doesn't need to step up or isn't involved you're completely wrong, you are involved.
00:32:19.560 --> 00:32:31.770 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Intervention seems scarier to like becoming involved and helpful i'm improving our situation versus i'm intervening and you can't do this and you know that that doesn't usually go over well right when you're in someone's.
00:32:31.770 --> 00:32:33.210 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: face when tell me more.
00:32:33.330 --> 00:32:35.430 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Please find more about why I can't do this.
00:32:35.730 --> 00:32:47.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right right right, you know and it's and and I love the fact that you're saying the involvement piece, and I do want us to talk a little bit more about some examples of.
00:32:49.320 --> 00:33:06.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: how people can like get involved, or what are the obstacles, you know we mentioned fear before, but what are some of the OPS other obstacles that might get in the way when people are stepping up as it relates to racism, because we need to be able to overcome these obstacles.
00:33:07.140 --> 00:33:15.120 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: So i'd say, the most important ones to me are social influence right, so the idea that it's several people see something.
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:32.640 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: We take our cues from others all right, so in my head and you know this, I am not a poker face So if I was in the group this dynamic probably wouldn't happen so, but the dynamic is you're thinking internally okay that was weird that seemed wrong sketchy whatever.
00:33:33.660 --> 00:33:39.960 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Let me look and see what vibe i'm getting from everyone else in the group and everyone else is internally saying to themselves.
00:33:40.200 --> 00:33:44.850 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: That was wrong that didn't feel right, but nobody else looks upset right so.
00:33:45.090 --> 00:34:01.680 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: it's a term called pluralistic ignorance, we are each thinking, the same thing that's the plural part but we're ignorant because we're going by someone's facial expression now once again let's put this in the workplace context, do you show everything you feel at work.
00:34:02.760 --> 00:34:12.210 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Probably not right, like a lot of us, you know we don't want to appear vulnerable, we want to look like we're you know you can't get to me you're not going to break me so you know a lot of times will act.
00:34:12.390 --> 00:34:20.970 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Like we don't feel something even when we're the target right The other thing is, we take our cues from the target the person being targeted by the behavior.
00:34:21.180 --> 00:34:29.460 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Well, they don't look upset so it's not a big deal yeah maybe I don't want to look upset because then i'm vulnerable and it looks like you went up to me, so I think.
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:37.350 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: that's a big deal and then I think the second big piece, which is why I do the bystander intervention involvement which i'm going to call it training.
00:34:37.710 --> 00:34:50.310 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Is that people want to do something there's so much research on workplace bullying harassment and discrimination that tells us that people who know about it, but are not the targets, want to do something.
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:51.780 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: And when they don't.
00:34:51.840 --> 00:35:02.310 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: it's because they didn't know what to do, they didn't know how to do it, they were caught off guard, so I think those are the two big things taking our cues from other people who don't look upset when in fact they may be.
00:35:02.490 --> 00:35:07.860 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: and honestly being caught off guard and not having a script right like we have the scripts in our head.
00:35:08.010 --> 00:35:16.470 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: That if we memorized and we're like Okay, this is what I do when that happens, but if you don't learn that you're like oh gee what should I do I want to do something, but I don't know what to do.
00:35:16.830 --> 00:35:24.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So what do you invite people to do when you are, you know training folks and coaching folks what are some steps that people can take.
00:35:25.080 --> 00:35:35.550 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Well, the first step is don't focus on other people if it feels wrong to you that's enough it doesn't everyone does not have to agree, in fact, everyone will not agree.
00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:46.740 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: that's why, when I do my trainings I have them i'll give a scenario then i'll have people discuss it at their table, and you know, then i'll have them report back, and when I just did this.
00:35:47.790 --> 00:35:59.610 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: A person stood up and said, well, we did not agree at our table at all about this and I said it would have been strange if you did right so that's, the first thing do not look to others use your internal compass, that is enough.
00:36:00.060 --> 00:36:09.600 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: And then the second thing I let them know is just because someone else isn't getting involved doesn't mean you shouldn't and then the third thing, and this, I think, is the most important.
00:36:11.010 --> 00:36:21.810 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: A lot of trainers management consultants, like to say there's one best way I throw that out immediately like I am a firm believer in contingencies.
00:36:22.140 --> 00:36:34.350 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: What works for one person won't work for another, so a lot of times, people say you need to do it in the moment otherwise people don't know that you stepped up, everyone is not going to speak in the moment.
00:36:34.740 --> 00:36:45.780 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: period, so if they think that's the only right way to do it there's no other option and now they're ashamed if they think they should have so what I say is the right way, is the way that you will actually do it.
00:36:46.710 --> 00:36:53.370 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: That means two days later, going into the office of the person who was targeted and saying you know.
00:36:54.210 --> 00:36:56.040 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: I felt so awkward in that meeting.
00:36:56.370 --> 00:37:08.730 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: I wanted to say something I didn't know what to say also, I didn't know if speaking up would make you feel more uncomfortable because now i'm like hey people in case you didn't notice with that person's was did this is what they did right so.
00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:17.730 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: It can actually be discomforting to the person who's targeted, so what i'm saying is whatever is your style is the right style then or later.
00:37:18.210 --> 00:37:20.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I love that I actually I.
00:37:21.150 --> 00:37:28.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I love that because not everyone is going to be as vocalist Dr land or as vocal as I am in any of these cases, but you know it's interesting.
00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:34.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because, as you're talking about all of these things I thought about the ways in which i've had to stand up.
00:37:34.890 --> 00:37:48.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To inequities that i've noticed and really to situations that were very harmful but it's also because for me and and we want to talk about how this relates to racism and in equities it's about.
00:37:49.170 --> 00:38:02.010 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: becoming aware beforehand that something is actually races or becoming aware of the micro aggressions or becoming aware of the tapestry, you know I used to work when I was getting.
00:38:02.700 --> 00:38:12.360 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: My PhD and I had to do my clinical training, I worked in this setting that was for special needs students, they had behavioral problems and.
00:38:13.110 --> 00:38:23.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Interestingly enough, most of them were black and brown students, but the people who worked with them were white people, I think I was one of maybe two people.
00:38:23.850 --> 00:38:32.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Particularly on the clinical side, and I remember that there was this person who worked in in the.
00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:40.170 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Time out row and the timeout room was where you would take people down the kids down if they were acting out right.
00:38:40.590 --> 00:38:53.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so every morning when they got off the bus, I mean immediately when they got off the bus this particular white man who was probably about six feet or so was yelling at these kids.
00:38:54.150 --> 00:39:04.980 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and all I can think about as a person of color was these black and brown kids start their day with a white man yelling at them, what is the message that's going in and said now.
00:39:05.910 --> 00:39:13.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: All of the staff would talk about him, but no one would do anything about it, so one day he actually was restraining.
00:39:13.950 --> 00:39:19.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: A 12 year old kid and he was on top of him and I happened to be in the timeout room.
00:39:19.410 --> 00:39:35.340 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: There was a nurse there, and there was another clinician who had more experience than I did one was restraining a kid the other one was standing next to me, he was screaming at this 12 year old he was on top of him screaming in his ear.
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:37.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and
00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:49.710 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It was like outrageous and I walked over because i'm looking at the clinician who has more experienced than I, and the nurse night for both like neither of them saying anything and i'm an intern.
00:39:50.160 --> 00:39:59.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And then I simply walked over and I touched him on the shoulder because he he was he was like a madman almost and I said I think he's gotten the picture.
00:40:00.030 --> 00:40:14.430 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And he calmed down enough, and they got up off of the kid and then he went out of the door, he said, and if anybody has a problem with it say something about it, but a lot and I walked out, and I said well actually I do.
00:40:15.660 --> 00:40:25.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And the way I handled it was I said, every day, these kids get off the bus you yell and scream at him so first of all you're going to have a heart attack, but secondly.
00:40:26.970 --> 00:40:37.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Look at what you're doing to these kids, and so we had a conversation about it, and from that point, you know my supervisor said hey I heard you intervene, you were the only one that stepped up.
00:40:38.310 --> 00:40:47.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Of course, someone has to say when enough is enough because he could have killed that young man and then what so we have to ask ourselves.
00:40:48.720 --> 00:40:55.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Should I get involved, but to say sometimes you have to think beyond just yourself, and so I love.
00:40:56.160 --> 00:41:09.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The ways in which you're talking about, we will all intervene in different ways, because maybe afterwards those two people then could have had a conversation with that man, but one of the things I want to ask you Lynn.
00:41:09.720 --> 00:41:24.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is this you know we're talking about here the paradox of power and in the work that you do you know you go in and you speak to companies, what is this idea of the paradox of power.
00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:31.650 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Okay, so the paradox of power is essentially most companies are many I should say.
00:41:32.190 --> 00:41:44.610 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Have these programs in place through human resource management, they have formal reporting channels, because if they don't and someone reports discrimination, they will be sued.
00:41:44.940 --> 00:41:56.850 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: All right, so it's compliance based So the idea is Oh, we were trying to protect employees from these negative behaviors which, to some extent is true, but.
00:41:57.480 --> 00:42:08.970 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: I have seen people running their business based on avoiding a lawsuit alright, so when you are driven by compliance your focus is different than when you are.
00:42:09.390 --> 00:42:20.310 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Driven by helping people and having a positive psychological you know social environment that's a lot different than operating, because if we don't do this, we might get sued.
00:42:21.060 --> 00:42:27.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right right, and you know as it relates to just thinking about discrimination and racism.
00:42:28.890 --> 00:42:36.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In terms of just making your employees feel safe because, if I have to endorse somebody says that machine doesn't take crack money.
00:42:37.260 --> 00:42:47.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: or those types of things people make comments all the time that are micro aggressions and sometimes quite frankly they're just macro.
00:42:47.640 --> 00:42:56.910 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: aggressions as well, I mean that That clearly is a macro one you know, but there are times that people even make assumptions about.
00:42:57.330 --> 00:43:10.200 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: who we are, what we have, I remember, I was at work once and of course this person didn't mean any harm by it, but I had taken off the day before, because I stayed had to stay home for a repair person.
00:43:10.680 --> 00:43:22.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To come in, and I think fix the water heater and I said Oh, it costs my sister a lot of money to have this repair, you know person to come in and he said you mean it costs your landlord a lot of money.
00:43:23.370 --> 00:43:38.310 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: By said no cost my sister a lot of money, she owned the House, but there was the assumption there and sometimes when you work in a setting where people are constantly making statements like that that they don't mean any harm by it.
00:43:38.730 --> 00:43:54.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: It chips away at you when you're in in a setting where they're ignoring your contributions or just again constantly making statements, it can feel like harassment those things are subtle.
00:43:54.840 --> 00:44:03.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But they're harassment, nevertheless, but if, as a person of color I can't go and talk to my supervisor about it.
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:20.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Then I think it gets to that issue that you're talking about a paradox of power it's a checkup checkmark but you don't really intend on changing the system at all to accommodate and to make me feel safe and secure in a setting.
00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:34.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So we're going to take a really quick break and if you have some words that you want to chime in on about what I just said, we will be right back for you to do so, and then I have a couple more questions before I show, and today we'll be right back.
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00:46:36.720 --> 00:46:48.900 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I am back with my guest today, Dr bose sperry it has been such a pleasure to have you on the show today I do want to ask you, before we move into our takeaways.
00:46:49.740 --> 00:47:01.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You your work actually was used with the equal employment opportunity Commission, could you just tell us a little bit about that before we move into the takeaways.
00:47:01.740 --> 00:47:12.480 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: yeah I would love to do that so harassment been illegal for decades yeah hashtag me to even though that was based on sexual harassment occurred in 2017.
00:47:13.410 --> 00:47:30.810 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: So obviously there are problems so emc put together a task force in 2015 to study workplace harassment and one of the questions they asked which I always say I really hope this is a rhetorical question is after 30 years have we been missing something.
00:47:31.950 --> 00:47:40.800 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: yeah obviously you'll have been missing something and the piece, they have been missing is tied into that paradox of power is the idea that.
00:47:41.400 --> 00:47:52.230 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: If everything is compliance based it puts the onus on the person who is being harassed or discriminated against it's on you to report, even though supervisors.
00:47:52.560 --> 00:48:06.210 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: are allowing this to occur right so once again in the workplace context you see these people over and over and over it's not like a random encounter where you see something going down, you know in public transportation, so the fact that.
00:48:07.050 --> 00:48:16.440 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: We continue to have policies that people will not use most targets do not report harassment, yet we have that in place so check.
00:48:16.650 --> 00:48:28.590 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Right so Finally, what the eeoc said, is what I said literally in my dissertation in 1996 so yeah a few decades go by and they concluded it's on us.
00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:36.900 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: bystanders are pivotal it's part of the culture it's part of the climate, you cannot expect a harasser to stop, unfortunately.
00:48:37.200 --> 00:48:50.220 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: And you do not have to rely on a target to take care it's not their personal issue it's an organizational issue and that is my big drive home, it is on the company and if you're an employee of the company it's on you.
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:58.650 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, well, I thank you for your research and that goes to show for all of those who are out there, working on their dissertation and their PhDs.
00:48:58.860 --> 00:49:11.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Your work matters but also It shows us that what we do matters, and it has lasting implications so Dr Len could you tell us a few takeaways for our listening audience today.
00:49:11.790 --> 00:49:20.970 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: yeah so my three big takeaways number one do not look at other people to figure out if there's a problem because everyone's doing the same thing.
00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:34.050 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Number two there's no one right way to get involved the right way, well, there is one right way, the right way, is the way you will actually do it, because if we tell you, you must do this and you want, then you want right so.
00:49:34.650 --> 00:49:47.430 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Those would be the two big takeaways and then the third one, is there are many ways to intervene right, and you have to figure out which one you feel most comfortable with So if you practice and play these things out ahead of time.
00:49:47.670 --> 00:49:56.850 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Instead of just being caught off guard, you will have these tools and you're like Okay, this is where I use this one or i'm going to use this one this time, but you need to know the tools before you can use them.
00:49:58.020 --> 00:50:02.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Why, I think, is really important, what you're saying about knowing the tools, because.
00:50:03.720 --> 00:50:10.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I think one of the things that people fail to do when they say, well, how can I get involved with dismantling racism.
00:50:11.190 --> 00:50:20.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You have to do the work you have to even if you're stopping harassment from some other perspective there's work that you must do and don't shy away.
00:50:21.210 --> 00:50:29.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: from doing the work that's required and anything that we want to do in life, it takes us putting energy into it, and so, if people.
00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:40.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: want to know more, particularly in the workplace, about whether it's sexual harassment or or discrimination, of course, our show focuses on the discrimination but.
00:50:41.310 --> 00:50:59.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In many ways the sexual harassment and discrimination or there's an intersection ality oftentimes with that as well, I invite you to get in touch with Dr Lynn and Dr bs, as you can see, she definitely is not a person who's full of bs she knows her stuff.
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:15.780 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And she can talk you, through your company being more than just doing this work, for the sake of saying i'm doing this work, just as I talked about in the things that I offer as well, dismantling racism is not.
00:51:17.250 --> 00:51:30.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know, really a sprint it's a marathon, we have to be willing to engage in this, so how would you tell people to get in touch with you in terms of just knowing more about the work that you do.
00:51:30.840 --> 00:51:44.820 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Well, I would say, they can go to linkedin I am on their Lynn bose I use both sometimes I use both sperry you know I couldn't give up the scary part after I got divorced, because then I just be Dr B and not Dr vs.
00:51:45.390 --> 00:51:54.240 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: They can also contact me through my employer, which is now California State University East Bay through that website as well mm hmm.
00:51:54.720 --> 00:51:56.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And the thing about it.
00:51:58.290 --> 00:52:11.520 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I want people to also know that when they work with you Lynn is also a very engaging person to work with and she's lots of fun with that lots of fun when I say at our parties we've had.
00:52:12.120 --> 00:52:21.000 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Lots of fun I do want to just encourage each and every one of you out there to get involved with involves.
00:52:21.690 --> 00:52:29.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: As Lynn said there's a difference between involvement and intervention, but do what you can where you can when you can because.
00:52:30.240 --> 00:52:40.500 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Each of us is, we were in this space for such a time as this you hear me say it over and over and over again there's much work for us to do.
00:52:40.770 --> 00:52:53.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We do it based on where we are, I don't care if you're 80 years old, if you're still breathing there is work for you to do out here, I want to encourage you on July 27 at 11 o'clock.
00:52:53.520 --> 00:53:09.720 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Am Eastern time I will be offering a free webinar on how to recognize and respond to racism, because you cannot dismantle it if you don't know how to recognize it I gave you some tips at the beginning of our show on.
00:53:10.260 --> 00:53:20.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How to get started with recognizing it, but I will tell you a little bit more in the webinar on July 27 at 11 o'clock So please, please, please.
00:53:20.340 --> 00:53:29.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Make sure that you register for that, by going to sacred intelligence.com you can also find out more.
00:53:29.790 --> 00:53:44.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: about the other classes, that I offer there, and you can also pick up a copy of my book, so Dr Lynn I want to ask you, do you have any words of inspiration, that you would like to leave with us today.
00:53:45.120 --> 00:53:57.540 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: Yes, I do so, I like to use quotes and I have two quotes from Dr Martin Luther King jr that I really like and always have but they now that I researched this topic, more so.
00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:03.540 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: So the first one is our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.
00:54:04.050 --> 00:54:13.200 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: The second one, in the end that actually This is my favorite in the end we will remember, not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
00:54:13.770 --> 00:54:24.150 Lynn Bowes-Sperry: And we can substitute co workers there and then last but not least, silence is not golden sometimes but you know not in these situations, not golden at all.
00:54:24.570 --> 00:54:34.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Oh, my goodness, I love both of those quotes and it goes back to what I was saying in the beginning about silence is complicit right and so.
00:54:34.950 --> 00:54:40.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And it shows our interconnectedness because we are under the impression that we.
00:54:41.190 --> 00:54:52.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: If we're privileged, for instance I don't need to say anything about this because it's not impacting me but, indeed, it does Dr Lynn I want to thank you so so much for being a guest.
00:54:53.160 --> 00:55:03.690 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: On my show, please everyone, make sure that you check her out go to linkedin get her information and make sure that you go to sacred intelligence.com.
00:55:03.930 --> 00:55:14.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: and find out more about the ways in which you can work with me on dismantling racism, I also want to invite you to stay tuned for the conscious consultant hour.
00:55:15.150 --> 00:55:19.830 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: With Sam liebowitz where he helped you to walk through life with the greatest of ease and joy.
00:55:20.100 --> 00:55:33.450 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Thank you to my listeners for joining me today, I truly truly appreciate, you may today you tap into that sacred part of you that allows you to make choices that manifest your good and those around you.
00:55:33.930 --> 00:55:48.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: know that we are all one and exists because of one another, make it a priority to share hope love compassion and peace today be well be safe, be encouraged until next time bye for now.