Betsy Gaines Quammen is a writer, historian, and conservationist. She is the author of American Zion: Cliven Bundy, God, and Western Public Lands. Her work has been featured in The New York Times, New York Daily News, and the History News Network. She has a doctorate in Environmental History from Montana State University and a Master's of Science in Environmental Studies.
Over the years, she has studied various religious traditions, with particular attention to how cultures view landscape and wildlife. The rural American West, pastoral communities of northern Mongolia, and the grasslands of East Africa have been her main areas of interest.
We will discuss the protection of our lands from a broad perspective, with Betsy bringing into focus new understandings of the issues around the abuse of our indigenous people with respect to what was their land. She shares knowledge gained from her experiences with religious communities that feel no obligation to care for the land to militia actions intent on removing indigenous people.
We'll also talk about her commitment to having fierce conversations across the aisle to find inevitable common ground and begin to heal the deep rift in our culture and address the enormous problem of the Climate Crisis. All this and her next book, True West: Sorting Realities on the Far Side of America, out in the fall of 2023.
Sandra starts the episode by explaining the purpose of The Edge of Everyday, which is to explore rough edges. She then introduces her guest, Betsy Gaines Quammen, who is a writer, speaker, environmental historian, and conservationist. Sandra and Betsy met through their mutual friend who introduced them because they have so much in common. Sandra talks about how they both have been able to weave their many passions together. Betsy talks about working at the Cincinnati Zoo and understanding extinction's finality, which led to her passion for conservation. She later started working with religious leaders and rural communities to really make a difference. Sandra talks about the importance of getting religious leaders involved in environmental issues. Betsy then talks about her work in Mongolia with the tributary fund which connects religious, scientific, and local leaders to engage their communities in conservation.
Betsy talks about her book, American Zion: Cliven Bundy, God, and Western Public Lands, which came out of her dissertation. The book is about Mormon settlement in the West and how that influenced the disputes over the land. She talks about how public land protection has become tangled in radicalism and how that radicalism is seen in current conflicts. Betsy talks about her knowledge of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and recommends the Hulu series Under the Banner of Heaven to anyone that wants to learn about it. Betsy gives an overview of the Mormons’ relationship to public lands and tells the story of the Bundys.
Betsy talks about the Mormons’ idea of sacred landscape and how that makes them feel entitled to certain land. She also mentions that their understanding of the constitution has led to some of their actions. She says that they largely justify their actions through theology and prophecy. Sandra then brings up Besty’s upcoming book, True West: Sorting Realities on the Far Side of America, and asks about Betsy’s experiences with courageous conversations. Betsy talks about talking to people in small communities and says that building relationships is the antithesis of radicalization. She stresses the importance of talking to rural communities because they are the most vulnerable. She also talks about her experiences being welcomed into people's homes and building connections with them.
Betsy tells the story of being told by a conservative man that if he hadn’t met her he would have been scared of her after they had spent a day together. Betsy also talks about feeling sympathetic toward an anti-vaxxer because of the manipulation that had been done to her on social media. Sandra connects this all to compassion and empathy. Betsy then talks about working with indigenous women and women of color and learning about their connections to and knowledge about the land. She tells stories of some of the women she has met and what she has learned from them. Betsy can be found at https://www.betsygainesquammen.com and her book can be found at any book retailer.
00:00:28.080 --> 00:00:35.400 www.TalkRadio.nyc: Welcome everyone i'm Sandra bartman a few years ago I wrote and performed a solo show called the edge of every day.
00:00:35.910 --> 00:00:41.580 www.TalkRadio.nyc: which was an exploration of the rough edges and contradictions, we all face and grappling.
00:00:42.420 --> 00:01:03.150 www.TalkRadio.nyc: The show hit a nerve and the relevance of the topic would only grow over time, more than I could have seen So here we are real talk with real people sharing stories and perspectives that spark pocket of invitations to leap out of what's safe on the edge of everything thanks for listening.
00:01:06.150 --> 00:01:16.020 Sandra Bargman: Hello everyone, we are live in the hive, thank you for joining me on this, the 31st episode of the edge of a.
00:01:17.340 --> 00:01:24.660 Sandra Bargman: dot nyc For those of you who are tuning in for the first time and for those of you who don't know me yet.
00:01:25.020 --> 00:01:39.540 Sandra Bargman: I encourage you to check out my bio on talk radio dot nyc or, of course, you can visit my website Sandra barge men.com and please tune into any of my previous episodes with my inspiring guests.
00:01:40.830 --> 00:01:50.160 Sandra Bargman: As all of my loyal listeners know this show is about celebrating triumphs pushing boundaries and exploring rough edges.
00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:58.650 Sandra Bargman: Through conversations and shared stories with friends and colleagues it's my hope that we can begin to understand our edges.
00:01:59.310 --> 00:02:21.420 Sandra Bargman: And what I mean by edges is those places where we are fearful those places where we are resistant to change those places where paradoxes and contradictions live in our beliefs and understandings both about ourselves and the world around us those places we don't want to look.
00:02:22.650 --> 00:02:33.240 Sandra Bargman: We live in turbulent times and we are coming to understand that life simply isn't black or white, it must be an embrace of both.
00:02:33.690 --> 00:02:48.480 Sandra Bargman: And the more we recognize our own edges and get real about them, the more we can help others to do the same, and that I fully believe can help to change the world so thanks again for tuning in.
00:02:49.890 --> 00:02:55.260 Sandra Bargman: And without further ado, it is time to introduce our guest this evening.
00:02:56.430 --> 00:03:13.230 Sandra Bargman: Betsy gains Coleman PhD is a writer speaker environmental historian and conservationist she is the author of American Zion Clive in bundy God and Western public lands.
00:03:13.650 --> 00:03:25.650 Sandra Bargman: Her work has been featured in the New York Times New York daily news and the history new network is a doctorate in environmental history from Montana State University.
00:03:26.220 --> 00:03:39.690 Sandra Bargman: And a masters of science in environmental studies her dissertation focused on mormon history and the roots of armed public land conflicts occurring in the United States.
00:03:40.410 --> 00:03:50.190 Sandra Bargman: She is fascinated at how religious views shape relationships to landscape wildlife and land protection are her passion.
00:03:50.730 --> 00:04:04.680 Sandra Bargman: She worked for years on conservation projects in Mongolia Bhutan East Africa and throughout the Western United States first with the East African wildlife society in Kenya.
00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:16.740 Sandra Bargman: And later with various conservation groups in Montana Idaho and wyoming on grizzly bear conservation ecosystem protection and grazing issues.
00:04:17.400 --> 00:04:30.660 Sandra Bargman: She served on numerous boards from the national Sierra Club to Tory house press to wild earth guardians to the deans council of the College of letters and science at Montana State University.
00:04:31.590 --> 00:04:45.330 Sandra Bargman: She was the founder and executive director of the tributary fund, which brought together religious leadership faith communities and conservation activities in the US Mongolia and Bhutan.
00:04:46.470 --> 00:05:11.670 Sandra Bargman: Betsy lives in bozeman Montana, with her husband writer David Coleman three huge dogs an overweight cat and a pretty big Python named boots her next book true West sorting realities on the far side of America is out in the fall of 2023 welcome and Hello Betsy.
00:05:11.940 --> 00:05:17.250 betsy quammen: hi i'm so happy to be here this is great i've been looking forward to this for.
00:05:18.300 --> 00:05:22.230 betsy quammen: time flies but we've been talking about this for a few months so.
00:05:23.070 --> 00:05:26.190 Sandra Bargman: While while while will thank you so much for coming on.
00:05:26.280 --> 00:05:37.800 Sandra Bargman: I am thrilled to have you here i've already gotten all kinds of texts about how excited people are to hear from you and she's your next guest sounds so cool yes, she is.
00:05:38.010 --> 00:05:40.020 Sandra Bargman: I don't a lot of research on her, and yes.
00:05:40.020 --> 00:05:40.530 Yes.
00:05:42.060 --> 00:05:51.090 Sandra Bargman: But I like to I like to share with my listeners how my guests come to me, you know connections and conversations, as you well know.
00:05:51.540 --> 00:06:04.950 Sandra Bargman: It is, it is all about that, so I know you through our mutual friend Leslie michaels who was just on my show last week oh good yeah yeah yeah plugging her glorious book.
00:06:05.250 --> 00:06:09.660 Sandra Bargman: That on the shoulders of mighty women in which I have a pair of a chapter.
00:06:09.780 --> 00:06:11.100 betsy quammen: I was gonna say you're in it.
00:06:11.220 --> 00:06:11.880 Sandra Bargman: i'm in it.
00:06:12.090 --> 00:06:13.470 Sandra Bargman: yeah yeah.
00:06:13.500 --> 00:06:15.510 Sandra Bargman: And she and you know we were talking she goes.
00:06:16.410 --> 00:06:32.970 Sandra Bargman: Oh, you have to know Betsy because she's she's like you she's environmental and she's in all of these lanes and I once I talked to you, then, we had a zoom conversation once I talked to you, I was overwhelmed with a kindred spirit in this.
00:06:33.570 --> 00:06:40.350 Sandra Bargman: of you and I, and and I loved that you know all my life i've been told to pick a lane.
00:06:41.820 --> 00:06:47.970 Sandra Bargman: pick a lane, you know and just stick there but i've rebelled against that and I have.
00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:57.240 Sandra Bargman: chosen to weave my all of the passions and the things that I love to do and ways of expressing and ways of working in the world.
00:06:57.780 --> 00:07:16.380 Sandra Bargman: into one package and I feel that's you as well, you have combined your love of history and environmentalism and conservation and interfaith and religion and spirituality and storytelling all into this beautiful tapestry.
00:07:17.670 --> 00:07:19.470 Sandra Bargman: Can you speak oh go ahead.
00:07:19.770 --> 00:07:20.880 Sandra Bargman: No, no, go ahead.
00:07:23.760 --> 00:07:37.350 betsy quammen: I was answering a question before was even asked, but I just wanted to say, you know what I think of and what you have such a good grasp on is you can't navigate an integrated world without understanding its integration.
00:07:37.500 --> 00:07:58.890 Sandra Bargman: Indeed, indeed, and that structure, I mean our our world has changed and we are realizing the interconnectedness and that that old paradigm of this is what I do and everything else is just periphery is over, you know the young people call it multi hyphen and we are multi hyphen it's.
00:08:00.540 --> 00:08:15.900 Sandra Bargman: So, so how did, how did you stack up and how did you leave without going too too far back into your childhood, how did you leave your this tapestry how how how what was the evolution of that.
00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:38.190 betsy quammen: Well, I I really do have a specific moment when I think I realized how fragile the world was and how important it was for me to be a part of keeping it whole and healthy and and gosh since I had this moment, things have.
00:08:39.270 --> 00:08:44.790 betsy quammen: accelerated and we're still we have a lot of work to do, but when I was.
00:08:45.540 --> 00:08:56.700 betsy quammen: growing up, I volunteered at the Cincinnati zoo and did it from the age of eight from eight to 18 and was able to do any number of amazingly cool things.
00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:02.790 betsy quammen: But one of the things that would happen is when it would rain I grew up in Cincinnati and it would.
00:09:03.180 --> 00:09:23.400 betsy quammen: Rain really hard it would just come down like cats and dogs and I would be out on the zoo grounds and would race to the shrine for the last passenger pigeon Martha that died at the Cincinnati zoo and she was the last member of her species, and I remember thinking.
00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:25.470 betsy quammen: When I was.
00:09:26.730 --> 00:09:30.480 betsy quammen: In this essentially mausoleum for her she's at the smithsonian now.
00:09:30.870 --> 00:09:45.510 betsy quammen: What extinction means and and how fun final, that is, and I think it impressed me so much because I would be in there alone as an eight 910 11 year old.
00:09:45.900 --> 00:09:53.190 betsy quammen: girl and and would sit with Martha she was someone I grew up with and in.
00:09:53.940 --> 00:10:08.850 betsy quammen: That experience I really vowed to take care of the earth species that was something that I was going to do and I realized, as I got into conservation, I mean my my I got right into conservation I is.
00:10:09.330 --> 00:10:17.790 betsy quammen: As soon as I graduated from college, I was the environmental reporter for the telluride telluride times tribune that's in Colorado and.
00:10:18.180 --> 00:10:27.870 betsy quammen: You know, wonderful wonderful experience and then I moved to Kenya and work for a wildlife magazine there and then I came back and got my masters and worked on.
00:10:28.380 --> 00:10:33.240 betsy quammen: Conservation issues in the northern Rockies grizzly bears fish rivers large landscapes.
00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:41.970 betsy quammen: But I realized that I wasn't going to make a difference, until I started getting out into communities and building relationships with people, because if.
00:10:42.450 --> 00:10:56.610 betsy quammen: I was really siloed I was talking to people who already agreed with what I had to say so that's when I became really interested in working with religious leaders and and you know now and working with rural communities so.
00:10:57.270 --> 00:11:10.380 betsy quammen: that's that's how it started and and, as you and I have talked about in order to focus if you're going to focus on one thing, in my case that's conservation, you need to understand.
00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:12.930 Sandra Bargman: A number of different things absolutely.
00:11:13.020 --> 00:11:22.350 Sandra Bargman: yeah absolutely my husband, you know when I became an interfaith Minister he and and and I came to the environmental field later and.
00:11:22.890 --> 00:11:31.260 Sandra Bargman: partially with his influence on me, which was great, but it was also in lived in me was very connected to the earth as a kid but I never imagined it as.
00:11:31.650 --> 00:11:41.520 Sandra Bargman: You know something that I would be actively pursuing but, but he always connected, you know the climate change and the climate crisis needs.
00:11:42.330 --> 00:11:50.580 Sandra Bargman: The faith leaders and needs conversation getting them on board and that's when things are going to move forward.
00:11:51.060 --> 00:12:03.330 Sandra Bargman: And you know I haven't I haven't done a ton of that, with all the climate change work that i've done I haven't had those courageous conversations with faith leaders at all, and you have, and this is an amazing.
00:12:04.020 --> 00:12:10.290 Sandra Bargman: Wonderful segue into, if you will, what brought you to I mean Mongolia.
00:12:11.100 --> 00:12:30.750 Sandra Bargman: The tributary fund the creation of that you are the founder and were the founder and executive director of it and which engages communities and conservation solutions through connecting religious scientific and local leaders and I watched Buddha and the big fish.
00:12:31.560 --> 00:12:32.460 betsy quammen: Oh, and it was.
00:12:32.490 --> 00:12:33.630 Sandra Bargman: I was blown away.
00:12:34.740 --> 00:12:48.600 betsy quammen: Thank you, it was narrated by Peter Matheson, who is a New York rider and lived in sag harbor for years and years and was a really, really, dear friend, a Buddhist who who loved Mongolia and so that was.
00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:48.960 Sandra Bargman: A really.
00:12:48.990 --> 00:12:51.660 betsy quammen: fun film to make, and it was a really great project.
00:12:52.170 --> 00:12:56.520 Sandra Bargman: i'm sure so How did the tributary fun get started, I mean was it with.
00:12:57.540 --> 00:13:01.230 Sandra Bargman: We just got our two minute break, can you can you do that, like in a minute.
00:13:01.590 --> 00:13:02.370 betsy quammen: I can, I can go.
00:13:03.180 --> 00:13:03.870 Sandra Bargman: I know you can.
00:13:04.920 --> 00:13:14.790 betsy quammen: I really became convinced that working with religious leaders, just as you said was a route to bringing broad communities into the conservation.
00:13:15.450 --> 00:13:24.510 betsy quammen: sort of campaign or this this getting people invested, and so the tributary fund our first project was in Mongolia.
00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:33.840 betsy quammen: Working with scientists Buddhist monks and local nomadic people and i'm happy to.
00:13:34.710 --> 00:13:39.150 betsy quammen: Talk about it, but until we get to the break, but I, it was one of the best things i've ever done we.
00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:50.070 betsy quammen: built a Buddhist monastery that became the site of conservation dialogue we work with Buddhist monks who translated a sutra saying that the death of one time in which was the fish we were working on.
00:13:50.340 --> 00:13:57.990 betsy quammen: equals the souls of 990 people suffering so that was way more compelling than us talking about fish populations so.
00:13:58.800 --> 00:14:16.350 betsy quammen: That was that was really neat to be able to go into sacred text and see something that resonated with people and the timing is this is six foot 180 pounds is a giant fish and when they heard that the death of one of those fish equals the souls of 999 people suffering.
00:14:16.800 --> 00:14:18.030 Sandra Bargman: That got on board.
00:14:21.030 --> 00:14:22.980 Sandra Bargman: Well, it really connects us.
00:14:23.010 --> 00:14:25.500 Sandra Bargman: To our reverence for all life.
00:14:26.130 --> 00:14:36.180 Sandra Bargman: yeah and and that's at the heart of all of this, that is at the heart of well, in my opinion it's every problem that we have in humanity period.
00:14:37.050 --> 00:14:51.720 Sandra Bargman: Number one being our our climate crisis, but we must take our first commercial break when we come back with Betsy we are going to dive into her storytelling and her first book.
00:14:52.680 --> 00:15:04.620 Sandra Bargman: Oh where's the name of it here it is Clive but up know Americans die on Clive bundy God and Western public lands when we come back on the edge of every day stay tuned hey.
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00:16:10.290 --> 00:16:16.170 www.TalkRadio.nyc: And are you on edge hey we live at challenging edgy time so let's lean it.
00:16:16.740 --> 00:16:24.900 www.TalkRadio.nyc: i'm standard parchment the host of the edge of every day which airs each Monday at 7pm Eastern time on talk radio dot nyc.
00:16:25.290 --> 00:16:39.660 www.TalkRadio.nyc: tune in live with me and my friends and colleagues as we share stories of perspectives about pushing boundaries and exploring our rough edges that's the end of every day on Mondays at 7pm Eastern time on top radio dot nyc.
00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:48.090 www.TalkRadio.nyc: you're listening to talk radio nyc uplift educate our.
00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:22.590 Sandra Bargman: on the edge of every day, and we are back with Betsy gains Coleman is a common requirement.
00:17:23.070 --> 00:17:26.130 betsy quammen: it's common I always okay it rhymes with ramen.
00:17:26.760 --> 00:17:33.750 Sandra Bargman: You know I only heard, I listened to and and and heard it pronouncing all of a sudden bright before the show is like What was it again.
00:17:37.770 --> 00:17:50.460 Sandra Bargman: So before we dive into storytelling I do want to make a point that wet and i'll do this again at the end of the show, but your CV when you go to bed sees website, as I suspect, you will all want to do ASAP.
00:17:51.060 --> 00:18:04.890 Sandra Bargman: She click on her CV the publications the films that she's done it's on believable so go run don't walk go there, and you can find the link to.
00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:12.570 Sandra Bargman: This Buddha and the big fish and i'll give that again, and it will be in our show notes so don't worry you'll get it, but.
00:18:12.870 --> 00:18:27.840 Sandra Bargman: But I did want to make sure that everyone knows that you can have, because I feel like we rushed that story about the tributary fund, but you can read much more about it and watch that movie and it's you know, this is the problem with only one hour.
00:18:29.130 --> 00:18:40.410 Sandra Bargman: With commercial brands you just don't have all the time in the world, and how much do you push forward so enough chitchat i'm going to push forward on to storytelling and your first book so.
00:18:40.890 --> 00:18:53.730 Sandra Bargman: You I read got your BA in writing, so I suspect storytelling and writing was also really kind of your first avenue as a journalist you're really connected to storytelling did you ever.
00:18:54.870 --> 00:19:06.840 Sandra Bargman: perceive that you are going to write a book, how did that, how did your the what was the spark for American xi'an Clive bundy God and Western public lands.
00:19:08.250 --> 00:19:09.570 betsy quammen: Well, it wasn't.
00:19:10.650 --> 00:19:12.780 betsy quammen: came out of my dissertation and.
00:19:13.320 --> 00:19:14.610 Sandra Bargman: that's why I didn't remember.
00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:25.050 betsy quammen: Hearing you soon no that's Okay, you know i'm married to a writer who I don't even know how many books he's done now, he said he wrote for National Geographic forever, I mean he's really.
00:19:25.380 --> 00:19:26.730 betsy quammen: A prolific he's.
00:19:26.760 --> 00:19:37.590 betsy quammen: prolific and he's brilliant, and so I I didn't exactly aspire to be a writer, I really my work came out of my activism.
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:49.890 betsy quammen: But what I found was that in writing the dissertation on and it's about mormon settlement in the West and how some of the roots of early mormon theology.
00:19:50.610 --> 00:19:59.100 betsy quammen: have influenced some of the land use, wars and and conflict and and quite honestly I was able to kind of look at a roadmap that.
00:19:59.280 --> 00:20:11.310 betsy quammen: takes us to rebellion on public land right to January six, so there are influences and I felt really strongly about it, I mean I was seeing these things I was seeing religious.
00:20:12.390 --> 00:20:35.040 betsy quammen: facets, that that we're validating acts of violence and and so when I started the book, I was looking at how conservation was being impacted by rebellion on public lands and I don't know if your audience remembers there were two incidents, in particular, there was an incidence in.
00:20:36.210 --> 00:20:45.300 betsy quammen: an incident in Nevada where a ranching family name the buddies went off engaged in a standoff against.
00:20:45.870 --> 00:20:58.740 betsy quammen: Law enforcement and nobody was killed, but militia from all over the country joined in the feds turn tail and it became one of the most galvanizing moments in in.
00:20:59.190 --> 00:21:12.870 betsy quammen: militia, you know modern militia history in the United States, the second incident was the takeover of a wildlife refuge in Oregon where armed occupants were there for 41 days.
00:21:13.020 --> 00:21:13.620 betsy quammen: And this was.
00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:26.940 betsy quammen: Federal Land, this was a wildlife refuge that families go to in birdwatch and they were there for 41 days they desecrated sacred native our excuse me northern pilot land.
00:21:27.840 --> 00:21:46.260 betsy quammen: And one of the militia members was killed several were arrested, but they never face consequences they were acquitted and Oregon and there was a mistrial in Nevada, and so I didn't know that when I embarked on this research to look what at what.
00:21:47.340 --> 00:21:51.300 betsy quammen: Early mormon worldview, and why there was such a.
00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:53.880 betsy quammen: A religious.
00:21:55.530 --> 00:22:18.510 betsy quammen: found foundation to these land use wars that I would be pivoting and not it's not pivoting its integration we've talked about this, I would be looking at how conservation has become tangled in radicalism and not conservation is but the the conservation public land protection.
00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:20.910 betsy quammen: has now been entangled in radicalism.
00:22:21.060 --> 00:22:32.370 betsy quammen: And that this radicalism is now tangling into covered measures and so board meetings and stop the steel and January six.
00:22:32.370 --> 00:22:56.250 betsy quammen: Six same people who are you know we're involved in this, you know what I thought was a outliers outlier an outlier event but then I visited the family in 2015 2016 was the Oregon takeover and then from there this movement is just metastasize.
00:22:56.760 --> 00:22:59.280 Sandra Bargman: How was to meet the family, my God.
00:23:00.090 --> 00:23:11.340 betsy quammen: Well, they were very nice to me they they gave me a signed book of mormon I think there was it because I knew so much about the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints.
00:23:11.340 --> 00:23:16.770 betsy quammen: Things they were interested in mission I you know doing missionary.
00:23:16.800 --> 00:23:18.540 Sandra Bargman: proselytizing to you sure.
00:23:18.810 --> 00:23:26.550 betsy quammen: And it is really I do want to do one quick plug because I don't know, have you have you watched under the banner of heaven, the new hulu series.
00:23:26.610 --> 00:23:36.630 betsy quammen: No oh it's it's so good and and it's it is fictionalized and there are issues that I that I know, make it a little bit.
00:23:37.830 --> 00:23:43.320 betsy quammen: upsetting to members of the Church, but if anybody out there is interested in watching a real.
00:23:43.650 --> 00:23:44.490 Sandra Bargman: That will be me.
00:23:44.670 --> 00:23:47.940 Sandra Bargman: series as done some serious facts I rest assured.
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:49.500 Sandra Bargman: Oh go ahead.
00:23:49.830 --> 00:23:50.700 betsy quammen: No, I that's all.
00:23:50.850 --> 00:23:54.510 Sandra Bargman: What is there, what is their stance on what is their relationship.
00:23:54.510 --> 00:23:59.130 Sandra Bargman: To the land public lands why what why.
00:23:59.910 --> 00:24:19.740 betsy quammen: OK, so the bundy family, like many other Western ranchers lease public lands, so they leased federal the property that essentially belongs to all Americans, you know, we have our national parks and we have our national forests, and we have what's called bureau of land management land.
00:24:19.980 --> 00:24:21.240 betsy quammen: And these are all.
00:24:21.360 --> 00:24:30.180 betsy quammen: This is all land that we can go to anytime we want with our families, you know for for recreation for spiritual sort of.
00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:43.950 betsy quammen: renewal, for you know and then of course it's wildlife habitat, so I go back to my Martha the passenger pigeon this land is really necessary for grizzly bears and wolves and mountain lions and it's so important and.
00:24:44.400 --> 00:25:03.930 betsy quammen: The bunnies were leasing land from the government and in 1993 he was he stopped paying for it, and this was because there was an endangered species that used the land that he's in the mojave desert so it's not a great place for.
00:25:04.350 --> 00:25:20.130 betsy quammen: Cows and House but it's a great place for the desert tortoise and, and this is a species that was that they were seeing numbers plummet and and what they did was Bruce babbitt at the time was the Department of Interior.
00:25:20.280 --> 00:25:21.180 betsy quammen: For under Clinton.
00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:37.920 betsy quammen: And he talked to these ranchers who were leasing public lands and he said, we will pay you money we will buy you out so that we can protect this habitat and it's it's really incredible habitat that's not great to ranch I mean it's a terrible.
00:25:38.100 --> 00:25:40.890 betsy quammen: It counts there it's great for.
00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:42.600 Sandra Bargman: This is a good deal take it.
00:25:42.900 --> 00:25:57.630 betsy quammen: So it's kind of like if you had a landlord that was going to be, you know wanting another tenant that they would come to you and say we're going to give you money to move out, I mean it it's they were they were leasing this they weren't.
00:25:58.140 --> 00:25:59.850 Sandra Bargman: They didn't own it at all.
00:26:00.060 --> 00:26:08.820 betsy quammen: yeah but great, but he refused and he stopped paying his bills and 20 years later, the Government finally got around to going and confiscating his cows.
00:26:09.300 --> 00:26:28.110 betsy quammen: he left the militia know they all flock there, there were there were anywhere between 750 and 1000 militia that that came in and and then I should say, there were also like other families and wasn't all militia wasn't all people with ar 15, but they are, they were they.
00:26:28.110 --> 00:26:40.980 betsy quammen: Were and the government back down because they didn't want to have bloodshed, they didn't want to see what happened in waco, which is always something that is talked about at these events.
00:26:41.430 --> 00:26:55.980 betsy quammen: And, and so, when I wrote American science, I thought people really need to know about what's happening in the West, and I think that people the West is little understood, I mean I think people think cowboys and they think of the show yellowstone and.
00:26:55.980 --> 00:26:58.620 betsy quammen: They know they think of.
00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:00.900 Sandra Bargman: machismo and.
00:27:01.020 --> 00:27:02.760 Sandra Bargman: yeah so independent.
00:27:02.970 --> 00:27:13.470 betsy quammen: Journalism and, and so I wanted people to know that there are things happening out here that are dangerous and are could affect the rest of the.
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:24.660 betsy quammen: Country and did affect the rest of the country um you know I just the the networks out here really helped to empower.
00:27:25.260 --> 00:27:32.850 betsy quammen: Some of what we saw on January six and so So when I wrote American Zion I did it as a.
00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:38.550 betsy quammen: You know sort of act of activism, but I will say I had a great time writing it and.
00:27:38.940 --> 00:27:51.480 betsy quammen: As I took a dissertation which is notoriously dry and and I think of you saying my CV my CV is just an academic CV you're supposed to put on every little thing you've ever done and it's so boring to read, but.
00:27:51.660 --> 00:27:53.130 Sandra Bargman: it's not boring no now.
00:27:53.850 --> 00:28:11.070 betsy quammen: But, but the book with the dissertation was boring, and then, when I wrote the book, I thought Okay, this is a juicy story, I can maybe make it so that people are going to actually want to turn the page and it's going into a second printing so I guess it work yay.
00:28:11.280 --> 00:28:13.650 Sandra Bargman: Congratulations, congratulations.
00:28:13.890 --> 00:28:14.910 Sandra Bargman: I expect a signed.
00:28:14.910 --> 00:28:18.390 betsy quammen: copy Oh, I will send you one, of course.
00:28:19.290 --> 00:28:20.160 Sandra Bargman: Thank you, thank you.
00:28:21.360 --> 00:28:27.900 Sandra Bargman: Okay, I you know I still want to know what what the religious reason what what what.
00:28:28.740 --> 00:28:37.560 Sandra Bargman: or excuse for this behavior of course i'm always fascinated by you know what what kind of excuses going to be pulled out religiously for this kind of behavior.
00:28:37.920 --> 00:29:01.050 Sandra Bargman: But we need to go to break, so I will quickly ask you that at the top of our third round, when we come back we're also going to talk about courageous conversations listening deep listening Betsy is inspiring in this category, when we come back on the edge of every day with Betsy.
00:29:02.370 --> 00:29:03.540 Sandra Bargman: Quote claiming.
00:29:04.620 --> 00:29:05.220 betsy quammen: ramen.
00:29:09.630 --> 00:29:11.940 Sandra Bargman: When we come back with Betsy gains common.
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00:31:14.460 --> 00:31:20.790 Sandra Bargman: on the edge of every day, and we are back with Betsy gains common.
00:31:22.410 --> 00:31:34.350 Sandra Bargman: And we're going to pick it up with that quick question what is that religious reason that of mormonism that supports in their mind this behavior.
00:31:35.430 --> 00:31:45.690 betsy quammen: yeah that's a good question and that really is about what American Zion is about it's it's it's a many, many different aspects.
00:31:46.290 --> 00:31:47.070 betsy quammen: Number One.
00:31:47.580 --> 00:32:01.230 betsy quammen: When the mormon people went from Missouri to Illinois to the great basin, they were doing it because, in part, mobs were running them out of.
00:32:01.800 --> 00:32:15.150 betsy quammen: a place that their profit had said was their sacred homeland, so when they got to the great basin utah Idaho and some of the other places that we see still very strong mormon.
00:32:15.870 --> 00:32:22.770 betsy quammen: You know populations and communities they brought with them, the idea of sacred landscape which they called Zion.
00:32:23.070 --> 00:32:26.280 betsy quammen: And xi'an was once that got.
00:32:26.310 --> 00:32:29.640 betsy quammen: established on top of southern pipe homeland.
00:32:30.780 --> 00:32:31.200 Sandra Bargman: In.
00:32:31.350 --> 00:32:37.710 betsy quammen: This is again in the way that that this has been historically perceived by.
00:32:38.910 --> 00:32:46.440 betsy quammen: us, and I should say this isn't the mormon church this, these are ways of viewing things that that you find in rural.
00:32:46.620 --> 00:32:49.440 Sandra Bargman: mormon community is more extreme conservatism.
00:32:49.620 --> 00:32:50.490 betsy quammen: Type right yeah.
00:32:50.580 --> 00:32:51.090 betsy quammen: Right.
00:32:51.150 --> 00:32:52.470 Sandra Bargman: But not a basic tenant.
00:32:52.890 --> 00:33:04.140 betsy quammen: it's yeah exactly and the Church is actually condemned the actions of the Mondays but, but you had this idea that xi'an sacred homeland was you know it was it was a.
00:33:04.950 --> 00:33:13.500 betsy quammen: It was there's it just happens to be also overlaid on public lands so so that was one thing they also have a very.
00:33:13.890 --> 00:33:21.510 betsy quammen: Specific religious obligation to the Constitution, so the bunnies would tell you that they understand the Constitution, better than you do.
00:33:21.810 --> 00:33:36.210 betsy quammen: And that it's it's incumbent upon them to protect it so some of their actions go back to that there's there's prophecy and apocryphal through prophecy, and I mean it's it's very interesting at it, you know, to read about this history.
00:33:37.020 --> 00:33:44.430 betsy quammen: But it, but they can justify their actions by profits by prophecies by.
00:33:45.150 --> 00:34:03.480 betsy quammen: It really is early mormon theology at least they feel they can justify it so it's it's I, as I said, it was a really fun book to write because there's a lot of these kind of archaic obscure you know I mean and then, this was a time of polygamy, so I also write extensively about polygamy.
00:34:04.320 --> 00:34:04.770 and
00:34:05.970 --> 00:34:14.400 betsy quammen: It you know because that's The other reason that they went to the the great basin, in order to practice polygamy.
00:34:14.820 --> 00:34:18.180 Sandra Bargman: yeah it'll I can't wait to read it, I can only.
00:34:18.300 --> 00:34:19.320 betsy quammen: be getting a copy.
00:34:20.430 --> 00:34:23.280 Sandra Bargman: And you'll get it you'll be getting a CD of the edge of every day.
00:34:23.640 --> 00:34:24.420 betsy quammen: Oh Goody.
00:34:24.660 --> 00:34:28.890 Sandra Bargman: yea which you can get on amazon.com and on CD baby.
00:34:32.790 --> 00:34:45.600 Sandra Bargman: So let's move to that's a great segue into the storytelling my goodness the conversations you must have had with this family and the skills that you have you know I just did a show where I had to talk about.
00:34:46.260 --> 00:34:54.000 Sandra Bargman: building bridges and having courageous conversations and enough time from the trump trauma has you know.
00:34:54.720 --> 00:35:04.200 Sandra Bargman: asked me three years ago, and I would have said, I am not engaging in any courageous conversations we need to be dealing with the same set of facts with the same reality.
00:35:04.680 --> 00:35:28.320 Sandra Bargman: And i've i've come full circle i've come back to know at knowing full well that now is the time to step in the path into the power of courageous conversations and your work so and your next book is employing this so incredibly so your next book due out in fall 2023 correct.
00:35:28.710 --> 00:35:32.430 Sandra Bargman: Yes, and it the title is.
00:35:33.510 --> 00:35:53.910 Sandra Bargman: True West sorting realities on the far side of America I love that I mean that's got a lot of levels it's brilliant brilliant so so and I love, I heard you say in something that I listened to that your primary source of activism is your courageous conversations.
00:35:55.380 --> 00:36:15.120 Sandra Bargman: And I love I love that and as a white woman so there's so much to weave into that with the indigenous culture with people of color with with the courage to hop into these conversations across the aisle so speak to us about your experiences in your stories around that well.
00:36:15.150 --> 00:36:33.210 betsy quammen: I thank you for asking that I have had again a really great time writing this book and I, like you, spent the last several years very angry and i'm realizing, we are told about each other through the media, we watch her you know, are we read or.
00:36:34.740 --> 00:36:53.610 betsy quammen: We are social media, the you know the depressed whatever and so going into little communities and talking to people has been incredibly good for me and and I because I I i'm not good being angry I don't think I don't think we can get things.
00:36:54.750 --> 00:36:56.970 Sandra Bargman: Nothing gets know we have to focus it.
00:36:57.030 --> 00:37:01.560 Sandra Bargman: And transmute it into action and that's what my chapter in leslie's book is about.
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:12.000 betsy quammen: Well, and I can't wait to read that um but one of the things and you asked me about some of the conversations that i've been having I just gave a talk to.
00:37:12.240 --> 00:37:23.280 betsy quammen: A girls program is called the traveling girls school and they are the most adorable 16 year old girls that are working they're taking a class on the West and they're from all over the world.
00:37:23.730 --> 00:37:38.520 betsy quammen: And so I I I was talking to them and I just said, oh my God I just thought of this, you know sort of what i'm doing that relationship building is the antithesis of radicalization relationship really.
00:37:39.870 --> 00:37:51.810 betsy quammen: confronts radicalization and i've been so worried about rural communities being vulnerable to these radicalized messages and they are and.
00:37:52.410 --> 00:38:03.540 betsy quammen: And so i've i've had unbelievable opportunities to talk to people in small towns that do get I mean that we are politically very different and.
00:38:03.870 --> 00:38:15.180 betsy quammen: And yet we, I mean I now get texts from people like Betsy I just saw that at other done reminded me of you, or you know, whatever I mean i've now become friends with with up.
00:38:16.140 --> 00:38:22.200 betsy quammen: I mean almost everybody I interviewed with my for my book, and I talked to.
00:38:22.740 --> 00:38:30.960 betsy quammen: And you know, a very, very, very conservative rancher who said, you know i've been radicalized and then he invited me to his ranch and it turns out.
00:38:31.530 --> 00:38:47.310 betsy quammen: he's one of the I mean we just adored each other and he hasn't been radicalized but but he's vulnerable to that yeah I talked to an African American man who's one of two African Americans living in a town tiny town of 400 people who.
00:38:48.210 --> 00:38:53.340 betsy quammen: said, I have been welcome in every single family's house i've been invited to every picnic.
00:38:54.330 --> 00:39:03.510 betsy quammen: And, and you know I had a different version of that I would have thought oh God it's so dangerous and he's had a wonderful time I have talked to.
00:39:04.380 --> 00:39:14.160 betsy quammen: A woman who came out of the mormon church and is now living in a tiny little town she works for the Federal Government and really has grown.
00:39:14.790 --> 00:39:29.040 betsy quammen: sort of protective of her mormon culture, because wealthy recreational is you know hipsters come in and they're really condescending to rural mormon people and.
00:39:29.310 --> 00:39:32.970 Sandra Bargman: period it's that way here in the catskills I watch it all the time.
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:38.790 betsy quammen: And and yeah and I have had it's been my Liberal friends who have said Oh, why do we even talk to.
00:39:39.090 --> 00:39:48.300 betsy quammen: You know people who are ignorant and I had another woman who she's a really good friend and I adore and she's from a tiny little community and new Mexico, but she said, you know.
00:39:48.750 --> 00:40:01.500 betsy quammen: She works with human rights, and she works with fighting white supremacy and that kind of thing and and she said, my Liberal friends have said, why do you even bother with rural communities and i'm thinking, because there are the communities that are vulnerable.
00:40:01.500 --> 00:40:02.160 Sandra Bargman: And Honorable.
00:40:02.190 --> 00:40:20.400 betsy quammen: entities that are hurting and and so that's been really I mean I you know I did have this conversation with with the buddies and I have talked to militia i'm not trying to change hearts and minds, I mean I when I hear people who are truly radicalized I know that i'm not the person.
00:40:20.520 --> 00:40:21.300 betsy quammen: Who is going to be.
00:40:21.450 --> 00:40:22.650 Sandra Bargman: Not that bridge builder.
00:40:22.830 --> 00:40:32.100 betsy quammen: i'm not and and I have, I have real problems, I mean I wouldn't want to work with people who are white supremacists I just I I.
00:40:32.490 --> 00:40:51.300 betsy quammen: I know that they need people, and I think that i've heard wonderful stories about white supremacist who've come out of that community and then go and do rehab with that community, and I think that's super cool but i'm not that person, but what I can do is talk to people listen to them.
00:40:52.320 --> 00:41:07.080 betsy quammen: And and and relationship build and and that's been the exercise of this book is is building relationships between different constituents and communities and trying to understand where they're coming.
00:41:07.080 --> 00:41:10.530 Sandra Bargman: From yeah do you feel that as a woman you're better at that.
00:41:11.400 --> 00:41:14.610 betsy quammen: You know I got I do have to say.
00:41:14.610 --> 00:41:16.320 Sandra Bargman: Should I say better because I mean like.
00:41:16.560 --> 00:41:24.720 Sandra Bargman: I don't mean to say men aren't good at that, but I, but I feel, in this instance in this way on this path, maybe it is, it is better.
00:41:25.560 --> 00:41:33.870 betsy quammen: Well it's it's a really good question, I think that men who come out of a rural culture could do it, I think that you know.
00:41:33.870 --> 00:41:35.610 Sandra Bargman: If you grew up on a ranch.
00:41:35.850 --> 00:41:42.180 betsy quammen: And you talk to other ranchers and they knew your family, and you know you might have play.
00:41:42.180 --> 00:41:45.180 Sandra Bargman: Some traditional lines in the sand, that that yeah.
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:48.510 betsy quammen: That you your your you played football with their kid or whatever.
00:41:48.720 --> 00:41:56.820 betsy quammen: But if, as an as somebody who's not part of a Community I can go into these communities, because I mean.
00:41:57.360 --> 00:42:05.970 betsy quammen: For better for worse i'm a woman i'm white i'm non threatening um you know and and I actually really care.
00:42:06.600 --> 00:42:17.310 betsy quammen: I don't have an agenda so i'm not going in and saying why would you ever vote that way I i'm going in and saying just tell me about what's important and and.
00:42:17.940 --> 00:42:29.940 betsy quammen: You know let's let's I mean i'm just there to hear them and I actually think one of the coolest things Sandra is that because of coven people were so hungry for.
00:42:29.940 --> 00:42:31.890 Sandra Bargman: Call yes absolutely.
00:42:32.010 --> 00:42:48.630 betsy quammen: That I was just invited in I sat and had coffee and people's kitchens I sat you know I I went in to coffee houses I I met one guy who retired from the railroad you know at his favorite bar and it was right across the street from the old.
00:42:49.680 --> 00:43:06.030 betsy quammen: depot and you know I just i've been on ranches i've been on farms i've i've been on kayaking trips i've been on hikes I you know I i'm just here to listen and let's do something cool and um and that's what i've been doing.
00:43:06.660 --> 00:43:13.620 Sandra Bargman: And so, and your openness and your effervescence and your zest for this work shines through.
00:43:14.130 --> 00:43:21.750 Sandra Bargman: And so, you know that is extraordinary, and I can really take a great lesson from you.
00:43:23.250 --> 00:43:32.880 Sandra Bargman: But we have to go to break before we continue so when we come back, I would like to ask you about.
00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:44.730 Sandra Bargman: The indigenous women that you're encountering in this work, and I would like to get into you and how you see their leadership.
00:43:45.210 --> 00:43:57.990 Sandra Bargman: Potentially shifting with all of this work and then get into your leading edge so when we come back with Betsy gains common on the edge of every day stay tuned everybody.
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00:45:55.440 --> 00:46:09.750 Sandra Bargman: on the edge of every day, and we are back with Betsy Coleman I before we dive into the indigenous and women of color question I do want to quickly ask you has there been something.
00:46:10.470 --> 00:46:21.870 Sandra Bargman: In these courageous conversations in your willingness to open up and to reach out, are there any techniques or things that you are surprised that you learned.
00:46:22.500 --> 00:46:35.490 Sandra Bargman: In this work, something that you didn't expect that you can share with our listeners as they contemplate how it is they might start to have these difficult and courageous conversations.
00:46:36.510 --> 00:46:49.590 betsy quammen: yeah two things come to mind number one I had a conversation with a very, very, very conservative guy late 60s, maybe mid 60s and.
00:46:50.310 --> 00:46:57.600 betsy quammen: You know, we talked about any number of issues, I mean I actually spent the day with him, and you know riding around in his truck and.
00:46:58.500 --> 00:47:01.080 betsy quammen: And he wrote me afterwards and he said.
00:47:02.010 --> 00:47:16.680 betsy quammen: If I if I hadn't been able to meet you I would have been scared of who you are like if I hadn't if I had not had my time with you, I would have been scared of you, because of the way Liberals are portrayed to.
00:47:17.490 --> 00:47:20.760 betsy quammen: Conservative people you know I mean we're essentially being.
00:47:21.690 --> 00:47:36.210 betsy quammen: sketched by Tucker carlson or Sean hannity and just hanging out with them, I mean I that meant a lot to me that he would be willing to say that because he and I have really become friends The other thing that surprised me is that.
00:47:36.750 --> 00:47:46.710 betsy quammen: I spent a lot of time with a woman who was an adamant Adam and Adam an Anti back Sir and and really influenced by Q and on and.
00:47:48.180 --> 00:47:54.990 betsy quammen: I was far more sympathetic with her not her ideology, but the.
00:47:56.040 --> 00:48:13.140 betsy quammen: Real manipulation that had been done to her through various channels on social media I didn't realize how you know i'm talking about rural vulnerable rural communities, but there are a lot of really vulnerable people.
00:48:13.320 --> 00:48:18.900 betsy quammen: Who who spend hours on the Internet and and get just pulled.
00:48:19.290 --> 00:48:19.830 Sandra Bargman: Right in.
00:48:20.070 --> 00:48:39.990 betsy quammen: Right and and I didn't I mean I had been so angry about that and then talking to her, I just felt sad and and so and she's she's part of a family of this family in very, very rural like right up on the North Dakota border that i've been spending a ton of time with and her.
00:48:41.070 --> 00:48:50.220 betsy quammen: conspiracy theories have really interfered with her family relationship so it's it's been it's so that so that those two things.
00:48:51.510 --> 00:49:02.370 Sandra Bargman: My passion i'm hearing compassion and empathy I mean you know Hello compassion and empathy and you also said earlier, you know i'm not going to go down some rabbit hole with some crazy talk.
00:49:03.150 --> 00:49:21.060 Sandra Bargman: You know where to draw your line in the in the sand and where your boundaries are, but your willingness to put that line far out and to fill that space with empathy and compassion, is what invites people over the bridge yeah yeah amen beautiful so what's.
00:49:23.160 --> 00:49:32.580 Sandra Bargman: As you are working with i'd argue working why shouldn't assume you are, are you working with indigenous women and women of color in this quest.
00:49:33.900 --> 00:49:43.920 betsy quammen: Oh, my gosh I have had fabulous that I, one of my actually a dear friend runs an organization out here and.
00:49:44.370 --> 00:49:59.070 betsy quammen: i've talked to her and i'm trying to figure out how to fit this in the book because I i'm talking about so many different things, but but she's an African American woman who was a on the police force, in a word, isn't it Palo Alto.
00:49:59.490 --> 00:50:18.660 betsy quammen: And she she and her husband retired out here and she's doing a ton of research on the history of lynchings in the West and it's very, very, very interesting she's yeah it's it's really it's brutal and so she and I have have in fact she called today and I need to call her back so.
00:50:19.740 --> 00:50:29.610 betsy quammen: I also have talked to I cannot tell you the native women that that i've come across in my work and and some of them are really dear friends.
00:50:29.850 --> 00:50:31.230 betsy quammen: My friend Francine.
00:50:31.530 --> 00:50:34.860 betsy quammen: Is an oral historian she just got her master's at.
00:50:36.060 --> 00:50:47.520 betsy quammen: Columbia and she is doing the oral tradition of bison and and looking at bison herds all throughout the West and and how different tribes.
00:50:48.300 --> 00:51:03.120 betsy quammen: encountered bison and how they use bison and what are they doing now, because right now in yellowstone because of the park being an arbitrary boundary you know bison migrated and they move.
00:51:03.120 --> 00:51:04.680 betsy quammen: Throughout the lesson and.
00:51:04.770 --> 00:51:16.800 betsy quammen: They kill base and every year that leave park boundaries because of local ranchers who don't want bison on their property it's it's a terrible situation so she is is looking at how.
00:51:17.490 --> 00:51:25.290 betsy quammen: indigenous groups are they're actually taking the bison to the tribes and and they're doing hunts traditional hunts and.
00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:26.490 Sandra Bargman: So she's just looking at.
00:51:26.520 --> 00:51:28.080 betsy quammen: A whole it's so cool.
00:51:28.290 --> 00:51:29.100 Sandra Bargman: And she got.
00:51:29.250 --> 00:51:42.180 betsy quammen: She is northern cheyenne so she grew up in Montana, and then my friend Jill mama de who I got to interview she's really great I say everybody's my friend, I met her we run a board together and i've met her.
00:51:42.240 --> 00:51:42.840 Sandra Bargman: good thing.
00:51:43.050 --> 00:51:48.690 betsy quammen: And I adore her and she did a film with her father in Scott.
00:51:48.720 --> 00:51:54.240 betsy quammen: Oh yeah who's just an incredible writer beautiful just came out with a book called the.
00:51:54.270 --> 00:51:56.310 betsy quammen: earth keeper which I recommend everybody.
00:51:56.520 --> 00:51:57.330 Sandra Bargman: I just bought it.
00:51:57.690 --> 00:51:59.520 Sandra Bargman: I literally just bought it it's.
00:51:59.610 --> 00:52:09.540 betsy quammen: his daughter is so cool and the work she's doing in terms of looking at what how storytelling is so important in the way of healing landscape.
00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:22.260 betsy quammen: And how land and she's a perfect person in terms of thinking about interconnectedness because there's no difference between land and prayer and story and people.
00:52:22.380 --> 00:52:22.560 and
00:52:23.580 --> 00:52:25.350 betsy quammen: And and it's just it's.
00:52:25.410 --> 00:52:27.180 Sandra Bargman: interconnectedness of life.
00:52:27.390 --> 00:52:37.140 betsy quammen: And she I just had, I had such a great time with her, it was right before her daughter was getting married and we had breakfast together in Santa fe and just.
00:52:37.230 --> 00:52:54.030 betsy quammen: I adored her, and then I was able, who else about Oh, my friend tammy who's the tribal Chair of the Indian ban of the southern pirate she is the tribal chair she's in her 30s she's such a bad ass she wants to write.
00:52:54.630 --> 00:53:07.320 betsy quammen: A history of the Indian peaks band of the southern pilot because they got down to so few Members, I mean like maybe 100 members, they had their land taken away from them.
00:53:07.830 --> 00:53:14.820 betsy quammen: The government had them sign their land away and some of them weren't able to write they were writing x's on these.
00:53:15.390 --> 00:53:21.510 betsy quammen: legally binding, I mean it's just incredible and heart wrenching the story of.
00:53:22.140 --> 00:53:32.280 betsy quammen: indigenous people in the West and how they were, I mean it's it's excruciating, and so I have been able to I mean.
00:53:32.580 --> 00:53:50.370 betsy quammen: You know Francine lives here in town where we serve on the wild earth guardians board together and she's just she's so great and doing this amazing by amazing by some work tammy I interviewed for American cyan and Jill I interviewed for true West so.
00:53:51.450 --> 00:54:00.150 betsy quammen: yeah and then oh gosh and one other person who everybody needs to know about as a woman named see Marie furman who i'm trying to get now on the wilder guardians Board, which is a great organization.
00:54:00.420 --> 00:54:05.310 betsy quammen: Looking at protecting Western landscape, because at the end of the day, that's my greatest passion.
00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:19.890 betsy quammen: But she's this exquisite poet and writer and and I become friends with her during pandemic and we've just written to each other and now will, will you know do a direct message and both of us are every time I hear from you.
00:54:19.920 --> 00:54:31.710 betsy quammen: My heart like explode, I mean we just we, and I was able to meet her after having this relationship just on virtually or online and I finally met her, and we were both like.
00:54:33.060 --> 00:54:33.330 betsy quammen: Your.
00:54:33.660 --> 00:54:35.400 Sandra Bargman: Best human and juicing.
00:54:35.790 --> 00:54:39.450 betsy quammen: It was and she's incredible she is such an exquisite writer and.
00:54:39.450 --> 00:54:40.020 Sandra Bargman: poet.
00:54:40.710 --> 00:54:50.730 betsy quammen: And she's an Idaho so anyway, yes, I have been very lucky in meeting unbelievably cool indigenous women and.
00:54:50.790 --> 00:54:55.110 Sandra Bargman: And it's all your story and you're all you know you're all working and uplifting each other and that's.
00:54:55.200 --> 00:54:59.280 Sandra Bargman: You know in this this part of the country that desperately needs you.
00:55:00.390 --> 00:55:04.200 Sandra Bargman: As they as they all parts of our country need the women to uplift and.
00:55:05.460 --> 00:55:10.230 Sandra Bargman: bring us to new conversations and new understandings, as we know well.
00:55:11.430 --> 00:55:16.500 Sandra Bargman: where people can find you Betsy gains common.com.
00:55:17.790 --> 00:55:23.670 Sandra Bargman: Are there any other and the net your first your book, can they find that on your website.
00:55:23.700 --> 00:55:30.030 betsy quammen: Or is there, another place an order it anywhere go to your local bookstore go online right.
00:55:30.240 --> 00:55:31.620 betsy quammen: widely available.
00:55:31.620 --> 00:55:33.540 Sandra Bargman: Ask your local bookstore first.
00:55:33.630 --> 00:55:34.950 Sandra Bargman: As my favorite.
00:55:34.980 --> 00:55:35.760 Sandra Bargman: Yes, yes.
00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:39.330 Sandra Bargman: And if you must get it on Amazon go for it but.
00:55:39.630 --> 00:55:40.440 betsy quammen: Maybe got it.
00:55:40.890 --> 00:55:42.270 Sandra Bargman: Yes, excellent.
00:55:43.050 --> 00:55:50.220 Sandra Bargman: and be on the lookout for the next book coming out in the fall of 2023.
00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:56.010 Sandra Bargman: And, are there any other resources that you can share with our.
00:55:57.180 --> 00:56:14.250 Sandra Bargman: listeners, you mentioned the wildlife that you're on the board is that that's also on your website any other resources that people can go to to to to find more find out more about your work and what's happening in that part of the world and courageous conversations.
00:56:14.700 --> 00:56:18.300 betsy quammen: Oh gosh I mean I you know I mean I bet you and I could give.
00:56:18.330 --> 00:56:18.930 Sandra Bargman: A million.
00:56:19.410 --> 00:56:19.830 betsy quammen: for that.
00:56:20.070 --> 00:56:21.720 Sandra Bargman: I righteous mind comes.
00:56:22.530 --> 00:56:24.030 Sandra Bargman: righteous mind yes.
00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:27.330 betsy quammen: yeah that's yes, I love that book.
00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:38.820 betsy quammen: And that's really, really helped me frame some of my conversations Jonathan haidt I love that book The earth keeper which we talked about which is just an excellent book.
00:56:39.720 --> 00:56:49.350 betsy quammen: And and they're also mountain journal, which, if people are interested in the West mountain journal, which is an online publication is really, really.
00:56:49.350 --> 00:56:49.710 Sandra Bargman: Good.
00:56:49.770 --> 00:57:09.690 betsy quammen: I country news is you know really talks about Western issues Oh, and I would say Leah soul Teal did a fabulous podcast called bundy bill about the Mondays which was really fun and she's brilliant I am so I you know the yeah I I could go on and on and on and on.
00:57:09.720 --> 00:57:11.220 Sandra Bargman: Excellent that's perfect.
00:57:11.280 --> 00:57:13.800 Sandra Bargman: that's a glorious start for our listeners.
00:57:13.980 --> 00:57:22.560 Sandra Bargman: And for me as well and I can't Thank you enough for coming on the edge of every day, it has been a joy and a delight, as I knew it would be.
00:57:22.680 --> 00:57:24.270 Sandra Bargman: To send us our with you.
00:57:24.660 --> 00:57:31.980 betsy quammen: Thank you for having me this is so much fun I I can't wait to have this be continued, I i'm i'm ready to talk to you again tomorrow.
00:57:32.190 --> 00:57:38.310 Sandra Bargman: Excellent I would love to book you let's do it and to our listeners Thank you so much for tuning in.
00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:47.550 Sandra Bargman: until the next time we speak remember you are always at the edge of the miraculous take good care.