Employment Law Today

Tuesday, October 12, 2021
Facebook Live Video from 2021/10/12 - Dismantling Racism In The Workplace

Facebook Live Video from 2021/10/12 - Dismantling Racism In The Workplace


2021/10/12 - Dismantling Racism In The Workplace

[NEW EPISODE] Dismantling Racism In The Workplace

Sadly, racism remains as a deeply destructive aspect of our society. It is embedded in our systems of thought, our interactions, and in all settings -- including employment.

Join Rev. Dr. Terrlyn L. Curry Avery and myself, as we discuss some methods for identifying, confronting, and dismantling racism in the workplace. No single show could possibly achieve this task, but we hope to address some causes and conditions in our conversation.

We will discuss the language used in dialogue over race, how certain terms may be heard differently based on one's race and background, and how to recognize the impact of racism on employers and employees alike. Roadmaps for real conversations will be revealed, so tune in to this must see episode of Employment Law Today.

Tune in for this informative conversation at or watch the Facebook Livestream by clicking here.

Show Notes

Segment 1

Eric starts the show by introducing the topic for tonight's episode; dismantling racism in the workplace. He introduces his guest, host of Dismantling Racism with Rev. Dr. TLC, Terrlyn L. Curry. Terrlyn is a licensed psychologist and pastor. She is the creator of pastology, the spiritual approach that focuses on the sysenery between pastoring and psychology. Terryln is also the author of Sacred Intelligence: The Essence of Sacred, Selfish, and Shared Relationships. Terryln discussed her background and how she developed a passion for fighting racial injustice. Before the break, Eric and Terrlyn began a discussion on the underlying issue with saying you “don't see color” as an employer.

Segment 2

After the break, Eric and Terrlyn continue the discussion on being color conscious. Terrlyn talked about a personal experience with a colleague and how his actions were unconsciously racist and weren’t brought to his attention until her reconciliation training. Eric and Terrlyn talked about unconscious behavior in the workplace. They discussed the outcomes of failing to see someone for who they are, race and all. Employers can unconsciously push pressures of white standards onto their POC employees. Before the break Terrlyn talked about how employers possibly reinforce white supremacy practices and beliefs when they fail to find leaders, CEOs, or workers of color because they are “not qualified”. When in actuality they are looking in predominantly white institutions and not historically black institutions because they are unconsciously perceived as not “as good”.

Segment 3

Coming back from the break Eric and Terrlyn talked about steps and actions employers can take to identify and dismantle racism. Terrlyn suggests that people start with themselves. In order to transform your organization you must transform yourself, she says. She adds that one way is to look at how you might engage in intentional or unintentional racist acts. Terrlyn says racism doesn’t require malice or intent, it’s possible to perpetuate white supremacy. Eric and Terrlyn talked about being aware of implicit biases you might hold. For an employer, you should reevaluate your hiring practices and ask yourself what standards are you basing them on? Before the break Eric and Terrlyn discussed ways in which people can dismantle racism without feeling defensive or guilty. Terrlyn says her training begins with the history of racism and how it is embedded in our society and we are a product of our society. They also discussed the need for proper training amongst diversity equity and inclusion.

Segment 4

In the last segment Eric and Terrlyn wrap up their conversation on the positive benefits of supporting POC employees. Terrlyn tells us how happy employees equal more productivity. Therefore, employers are likely to earn more. She talked about a personal experience when she was on a spiritual retreat; the white owned business had employees of color that were so engaging and happy. Terrlyn was elated to see such positive feedback that she knew she would want to come back and spend her money. Having engaging employees that are supported will lead to generating more business. Before the end of the show Terrlyn mentioned her new book Dismantling Racism: Sacred Intelligence Journey of Faith For Transformational Leaders available in 2022. The book talks about how to navigate conversation around racism and how to stay engaged. Terrlyn gave her contact at the end of the show and her website, if you are interested in classes.


00:00:41.850 --> 00:00:46.590 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Good evening, welcome to employment law today i'm your host erick solver.

00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:56.430 Eric Sarver, Esq.: i'm an employment law and business law attorney and I have to show every Tuesday evening 5pm Eastern standard time right here on talk radio nyc.

00:00:56.730 --> 00:01:06.270 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Where I discuss issues with guests, we go leading to employment and business and employment Labor law and basically the the main issues that.

00:01:06.600 --> 00:01:17.970 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Companies and business owners and employers and employees, like are facing in these modern times and so with that backdrop, I am very pleased tonight.

00:01:18.360 --> 00:01:33.720 Eric Sarver, Esq.: to welcome my guest Mike she is also a Co host of her own show a here at the station and to want to introduce you for a moment the Reverend Dr carolyn Curry avery welcome to the show.

00:01:34.740 --> 00:01:37.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Thank you, thank you so much for having me i'm glad to be here.

00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:45.510 Eric Sarver, Esq.: great to have you on carolyn's on the show here tonight and our topic for our listeners so again, I think, is really, really.

00:01:46.140 --> 00:01:54.390 Eric Sarver, Esq.: pertinent frankly in any age, but It just seems like a striking striking matter that's been mostly in the news and people on people's minds and hearts.

00:01:54.720 --> 00:02:03.900 Eric Sarver, Esq.: And that's the topic of dismantling racism in the workplace and to summarize our topic tonight you know carolyn and I were speaking last week and.

00:02:04.170 --> 00:02:17.550 Eric Sarver, Esq.: it's it's it's sad but it's true that racism remains as dp destructive aspect of our society it's embedded in our systems of thought and their interactions and we find it in all settings including employment.

00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:29.760 Eric Sarver, Esq.: And so tonight, Dr carolyn creatively and I will discuss some methods for identifying racism right for confronting it and dismantling it in the workplace.

00:02:30.330 --> 00:02:38.580 Eric Sarver, Esq.: And I recognize and I think we all recognize hope we all recognize that there's no single show that could possibly achieve this task.

00:02:39.060 --> 00:02:43.860 Eric Sarver, Esq.: But we do have to address them causes and get down some conditions as well in our conversation.

00:02:44.340 --> 00:02:58.140 Eric Sarver, Esq.: So we'll be discussing the language used in dialogue or race, including an employment contents we're going to talk about how to recognize the impact of racism on employers and employees alike.

00:02:58.650 --> 00:03:13.350 Eric Sarver, Esq.: And lastly, we'll have some roadmaps that Reverend Dr carolyn can map out for us that will be revealed regarding how to have these difficult but rewarding conversations and so with that once again.

00:03:14.610 --> 00:03:20.490 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Dr carolyn Troy TV, I want to give a further introduction of you, if I may, I terms of your background.

00:03:21.390 --> 00:03:28.710 Eric Sarver, Esq.: So the Reverend Dr carolyn Curry Curry will call you as you'd like to be called the Reverend Dr tlc has a nice ring to it.

00:03:29.580 --> 00:03:40.050 Eric Sarver, Esq.: She is the creator of past ology, which is the net the dynamic spiritually based approach the transformation that focuses on the synergy between pestering and psychology.

00:03:40.470 --> 00:03:51.030 Eric Sarver, Esq.: And the Reverend Dr tlc is passionate about issues of racial and social justice, she has traveled the country facilitating trainings on systemic racism and implicit bias.

00:03:51.660 --> 00:04:00.600 Eric Sarver, Esq.: And the Reverend Dr tlc also coaches transformational leaders in this area, and she offers programs for individuals and organizations.

00:04:00.900 --> 00:04:07.560 Eric Sarver, Esq.: That focus on interracial interracial dialogue that is basically a racial reconciliation.

00:04:08.070 --> 00:04:17.850 Eric Sarver, Esq.: These discussions begin with individual transformation, according to the Reverend Dr tlc and then they move to a systemic transformation, with a particular.

00:04:18.300 --> 00:04:29.790 Eric Sarver, Esq.: organization or community or institution her expertise in this area is crucial to how she engages individuals to transform their relationships with I really like this part of your bio if i'm a.

00:04:30.420 --> 00:04:38.520 Eric Sarver, Esq.: relationship with the secret, which is themselves i'm sorry with the sacred with themselves, which is the selfish and with others, which is shared.

00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:44.670 Eric Sarver, Esq.: And last but not least, on note that Reverend Dr TMC is the author of sacred intelligence.

00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:54.420 Eric Sarver, Esq.: The essence of sacred selfish and share relationships and the Reverend Dr tlc his next book keep an eye out folks for folks is dismantle racism.

00:04:54.750 --> 00:05:04.110 Eric Sarver, Esq.: The secret intelligence journey of faith for transformational leaders, which will be available on early 2022 last last last but not least.

00:05:04.650 --> 00:05:24.510 Eric Sarver, Esq.: The Reverend Dr tlc is the host of, as I mentioned dismantle racism which airs on this station talk to nyc on Thursdays at 11am Eastern time and I said a mouthful they're all great stuff very impressive your background Tara Lynn and I really glad to have you on the show, as I mentioned.

00:05:25.110 --> 00:05:26.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Thank you, thank you so much.

00:05:27.030 --> 00:05:36.600 Eric Sarver, Esq.: yeah sure thing, so one question I usually ask my guests and i'll ask it to you for you as well, is, if you continue to the Center is.

00:05:37.080 --> 00:05:46.350 Eric Sarver, Esq.: A bit more about yourself and mainly what inspired your current professional path and what passion projects are you working on right now like, how did you get to where you are.

00:05:46.680 --> 00:06:02.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: um well so it's really interesting and I want to go back and kind of talk about that past psychologists term that you mentioned in my bio, so I am a licensed psychologist as well as an ordained minister.

00:06:02.850 --> 00:06:11.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And really i've merged my passion for I really just want to help people heal so whether that's as a psychologist or as a spiritual leader.

00:06:11.940 --> 00:06:20.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: or as a coach that really helps people really take a look at themselves and how do we manifest the greatest parts of ourselves.

00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:31.830 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So for me, particularly as it relates to this work around healing and reconciliation, I was born in the south and make no mistake about it.

00:06:32.820 --> 00:06:39.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That I could recognize racism, when I saw it, I recognize that things were different for me.

00:06:40.440 --> 00:06:52.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: than they were perhaps for some of my white peers, for instance, so I was born during a time where I really was born about 45 minutes from where Martin Luther King was killed.

00:06:53.340 --> 00:07:05.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I was 15 minutes away from where James meredith actually integrated the University of Mississippi so I had all of these significant things to happen around me and, though I was young.

00:07:05.730 --> 00:07:25.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And my parents sort of protected me from it, I still understood racism so as I really started thinking about the groups of people that I wanted to work with I knew I wanted to give back in some way to inner city kids or kids of color and I did that for quite a number of years.

00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:33.210 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And then, once I became a pastor my work evolves around working with people who were wounded by religion.

00:07:33.630 --> 00:07:47.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And while I was working towards my degree, I actually traveled the country doing a lot of racial reconciliation trainings and work with educational systems so long story short, if I can just.

00:07:47.820 --> 00:08:00.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: shorten it a bit I got to a point where I thought that my mission was there to help people who were wounded by religion and that still is a part of it, but because we live in a country where racism is very pervasive.

00:08:02.100 --> 00:08:22.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I could not just leave the racial reconciliation piece alone, I really thought that I would and focus on wounds of religion solely but we live in a country where we see black and brown people being murdered, you know by the the police.

00:08:23.310 --> 00:08:36.090 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We see all other sorts of discriminatory practices happening, and so I was called to serve in what I do now by teaching dismantling racism courses, I still work on ones of religion but.

00:08:36.990 --> 00:08:45.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The reason why i'm doing a show on dismantling racism is because I believe that we live in a country where we really need to address racism.

00:08:47.070 --> 00:08:55.110 Eric Sarver, Esq.: yeah wow that's a lot, I mean it's really valuable stuff there, it says i'm back six but, if anything, because I mean I really hear.

00:08:55.860 --> 00:09:01.470 Eric Sarver, Esq.: The personal experience, the background the JET childhood experience of what you saw it is.

00:09:01.800 --> 00:09:08.550 Eric Sarver, Esq.: I find it interesting that you said, your parents did the best to kind of protect you insulate you maybe from some of the harshest of the world out there.

00:09:08.850 --> 00:09:17.220 Eric Sarver, Esq.: But tours in a very perceptive right, so you pick these things up, you see it you learn it gets into your sort of your your bones your your very essence you being.

00:09:18.450 --> 00:09:24.870 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Anything interesting that you can look at the wounded by religion piece, and also their their wounded by half racism.

00:09:25.920 --> 00:09:48.810 Eric Sarver, Esq.: I suppose it's interesting that often you'll see groups that will hijack right or religious symbol figure belief system and use it to justify racist beliefs, and if you unpack that you see it's sort of like just like a marketing branding gimmick that say some extreme groups might find.

00:09:49.860 --> 00:09:58.080 Eric Sarver, Esq.: You know and it's, so I think it's great that you can address we live, when people were wounded by religion and also address wounds of race.

00:09:58.680 --> 00:10:09.120 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Or rather roots of racism, I should say is and your capacity as a pastor and psychologists kind of marrying those two and I do like that term pesto, because I think I told you my wife is a pastor.

00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:13.500 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Whenever as well, and then vegetarian church, as I know you are too, and then.

00:10:14.070 --> 00:10:15.150 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Similar causes.

00:10:16.170 --> 00:10:26.100 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Coming at it from as a white woman's different history and background, but that I mentioned that turn best colleges and she was very fascinated by that so.

00:10:27.870 --> 00:10:33.480 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, you know I just say it's really interesting because when I first came out of divinity school.

00:10:33.870 --> 00:10:42.570 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I thought that I was going to be focusing on the wounds of religion as it related to some horrible ways that the Church has hurt individuals.

00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:59.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But as I engage more in this work on dismantling racism, there are wounds of religion that are related to racism really intersects and so it's very interesting that you talk about people who use religious symbols.

00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:13.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To really continue to engage in white supremacy, which is really about one group a white group feeling like it's superior over another, because I think it's an important to really.

00:11:14.460 --> 00:11:24.180 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: define what we mean we're not necessarily talking about burning across or anything like that, but we're talking about when you believe that your group is superior just because.

00:11:25.290 --> 00:11:38.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know you come from the White race and that sort of thing, and so there are some ways in which it intersects and I think it's important, particularly for your work around employment law.

00:11:39.180 --> 00:11:40.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because i'm often.

00:11:40.260 --> 00:11:45.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: fascinated by people in the employment arena.

00:11:46.170 --> 00:11:47.190 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: who say that they.

00:11:47.220 --> 00:11:56.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Are faith based people, but still continue to practice discriminatory practices and they don't see that there's an inconsistency with what they say they believe.

00:11:56.520 --> 00:11:57.930 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: we're practicing.

00:11:58.920 --> 00:12:09.840 Eric Sarver, Esq.: that's an interesting point you know it's really It really is because, as I mentioned before the show started on the intro i'm an employment law and business law attorney and had been practicing in the employment realm.

00:12:10.590 --> 00:12:20.010 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Since 1989 22 almost 23 years now they're about to end and I have seen many employers and sometimes they're.

00:12:20.790 --> 00:12:26.130 Eric Sarver, Esq.: sort of charitable nonprofit organizations, I won't say which ones, of course, but where are they they are.

00:12:27.060 --> 00:12:34.860 Eric Sarver, Esq.: sort of face to the world that they're showing is that they're very involved with social justice and clauses and yet, and you wonder how could discrimination.

00:12:35.250 --> 00:12:46.800 Eric Sarver, Esq.: The rampant rampant within their their places and systems and it's also in private industry right and all kinds of a big business small business, so it is, I think kind of interesting that disconnect that yeah I just heard you say.

00:12:47.790 --> 00:12:54.030 Eric Sarver, Esq.: What I find kind of fascinating as well be fasting is wrong word but curious and maybe if I troubling.

00:12:54.810 --> 00:13:06.720 Eric Sarver, Esq.: is like how many companies and employers assume that you know, the issues of racism are either in the context of a giant corporation well that's that's Google that's you know say uber that's.

00:13:07.590 --> 00:13:12.780 Eric Sarver, Esq.: that's not you know our company we're a small family based everyone's like family we're friends.

00:13:13.230 --> 00:13:21.600 Eric Sarver, Esq.: If that was surprised me and also the people who say they run a company, but they're colorblind right and they say that famous line you.

00:13:22.410 --> 00:13:28.770 Eric Sarver, Esq.: know you treat hurt you know, like that, like you, don't know if you don't see color we'll see I don't care if you're black white Brown.

00:13:29.130 --> 00:13:35.760 Eric Sarver, Esq.: And it's become an issue that well, perhaps you should see color and should see would be Vargas and you're not seeing.

00:13:36.180 --> 00:13:42.600 Eric Sarver, Esq.: The whole person their experiences their perception right how they might see a situation differently than you do.

00:13:43.590 --> 00:13:57.120 Eric Sarver, Esq.: So I always find that fascinating when, but I have clients who tell me that, then they don't see color the color line you're not seeing the whole person you're so it's I think I know their intentions, but you know i'm saying i'm a female.

00:13:58.260 --> 00:14:10.830 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I absolutely do and I don't mean to cut you off about that, but I know that here's the thing, first of all it's not true because anybody who says to me that they don't see color.

00:14:11.670 --> 00:14:18.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But we can week I know that that we're probably going to take a break shortly, and so I definitely want to talk about it.

00:14:19.470 --> 00:14:28.110 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To really kind of expand it, but first of all it's just not true and I want you to see me as a black woman, because when you see me as a black.

00:14:28.530 --> 00:14:45.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: woman, you know that I come differently to the table, perhaps, than a white woman or a Latina woman or a you know, an indigenous person, so I want you to see that i'm different, for instance, my mannerisms might be different.

00:14:46.260 --> 00:14:52.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And unfortunately, if you see everyone has the same you think that I should behave.

00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:53.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In the same.

00:14:53.760 --> 00:14:59.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: way, and then, when I don't you see the me as a deficit.

00:14:59.430 --> 00:15:00.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So that's.

00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:03.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: A problem and that's actually racist in and of itself.

00:15:04.830 --> 00:15:12.570 Eric Sarver, Esq.: That, I think, would be a great note to pick up on, as you why is the star from doing the show we have our first commercial break.

00:15:13.350 --> 00:15:20.520 Eric Sarver, Esq.: we'll stick around we come back we're going to talk about some specific so we'll get into ways that we see racism manifesting in the workplace.

00:15:20.910 --> 00:15:33.240 Eric Sarver, Esq.: And what can we do about it so stay tuned for talking to nyc i'm your host of my mouth today Eric savoured my guest Reverend Dr tlc that the terror carolyn query we'll be right back.

00:17:45.870 --> 00:17:53.610 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Welcome back to employment law today i'm your host erick Sabra my guest tonight the Reverend Dr tlc and carolyn creamery.

00:17:53.970 --> 00:18:01.530 Eric Sarver, Esq.: And we're talking about this issue, the topic tonight is dismantling racism in the workplace coming at this from the perspective of.

00:18:02.370 --> 00:18:08.760 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Dr carolyn's work in this field and i'm listening and bringing my experiences and employment law attorney.

00:18:09.210 --> 00:18:22.830 Eric Sarver, Esq.: to table in the conversation and i'm chillin, I think, really, really ended on a strong topic there for the break this whole point about companies are employers and society.

00:18:23.280 --> 00:18:35.310 Eric Sarver, Esq.: people saying that they're colorblind right and sort of striving, as if that's the goal of a of a of a non discriminatory workplace keeping the compliant contacts.

00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:46.440 Eric Sarver, Esq.: And you made a really good point there, but I heard you say is that, if a company's see everyone is all the same, a they can see color right unless you're truly buying, you can see them as color.

00:18:46.770 --> 00:18:51.390 Eric Sarver, Esq.: You know, you can see the application, you can see, you know so it's it's obvious and be.

00:18:52.290 --> 00:18:59.700 Eric Sarver, Esq.: If people have one standard they're not recognizing that we're all different, based on our culture, our background and so.

00:18:59.910 --> 00:19:18.030 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Our ethnicity or race so being a judge, something that you're doing or saying, or just your messenger being as quote unquote wrong when in fact that's just not with not seen you know so, can you talk more about the color blind I think that's a really good topic we get into.

00:19:18.570 --> 00:19:20.220 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah so.

00:19:20.520 --> 00:19:26.880 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: here's one thing I want to say is that I understand why people say they don't see color.

00:19:27.600 --> 00:19:35.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So, if you think about the 60s and maybe even the early 70s, when we had a lot of racial unrest.

00:19:36.120 --> 00:19:48.180 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Many people wanted to train their children not to be racist and so they would say to them, we treat all people, the same we don't see color so the intention.

00:19:48.540 --> 00:19:56.040 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: was good to say we don't see color but not understanding that even that intention itself.

00:19:56.460 --> 00:20:06.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Was there were some layers underneath there and that's why we have to be comfortable talking about race in this country, these so that we can be informed.

00:20:06.330 --> 00:20:19.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And so, as we've evolved over time we began to change our language and we say no it's not Okay, for you to say I don't see color that I am colorblind what we want you to be as color conscious.

00:20:20.250 --> 00:20:22.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So I wanted to share an example.

00:20:23.190 --> 00:20:29.310 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: with you as well about when we are not color conscious.

00:20:29.580 --> 00:20:31.260 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So I gave an example.

00:20:31.320 --> 00:20:41.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: as it relates to employment law that we don't understand the ways in which we treat people, or we could we could see it as that person's behavior is.

00:20:41.730 --> 00:20:53.430 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Against the norm against the standard, because the standard standard this white right and so when you're anything other than that there's something wrong, but it also influences.

00:20:53.850 --> 00:21:07.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The way we treat other individuals who we decided to hire who we decide to write up you know, for their performance evaluations so i'll give you an example, out of my days when I worked in a high school.

00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:15.780 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah when I worked in the high school, I was doing some trainings there as the school psychologist I did trainings around.

00:21:16.470 --> 00:21:29.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: conversations around racism so i've been doing this for a long, long time, and one of my colleagues said to me, he said i'm glad that you talk to me about being color conscious.

00:21:30.600 --> 00:21:41.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: He said I walked down the hallway and I was going to put some equipment back into a closet and I saw a white male in an empty classroom.

00:21:42.750 --> 00:21:59.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: rummaging through the desk and I kept walking and then I caught myself, and I said, why did you keep walking there's a student in that empty classroom rummaging through a desk and he said had that Bennett a black student.

00:21:59.580 --> 00:22:06.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: or Latina female whoever it was anybody, other than white I would have stopped so he turned around.

00:22:06.540 --> 00:22:07.050 Eric Sarver, Esq.: He went.

00:22:07.080 --> 00:22:24.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Back to that young man and you said, what are you doing in the classroom there's no teacher in here, and do you know what he said he said, I am looking for a pass, so I can write myself a pass the class now two things came out of that.

00:22:24.360 --> 00:22:26.550 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: One the teacher understood.

00:22:26.670 --> 00:22:36.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: unconsciously that his actions were different, based on the color of that students skin, the same thing happens when we're at work.

00:22:36.780 --> 00:22:38.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: unconsciously.

00:22:38.220 --> 00:22:52.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We respond to people, based on the color of their skin and, secondly, this young white male already knew his place in society already knew that he had the privilege is teacher.

00:22:53.280 --> 00:22:56.730 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I am looking for a pass to write myself a pass the class.

00:22:57.090 --> 00:22:57.270 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Right.

00:22:57.300 --> 00:23:01.110 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: A black male black female lending up.

00:23:01.560 --> 00:23:03.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: On male or female, would have.

00:23:03.900 --> 00:23:04.440 known.

00:23:10.290 --> 00:23:10.890 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So.

00:23:11.100 --> 00:23:12.060 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Do you see how.

00:23:12.510 --> 00:23:31.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: unconsciously, we respond and we react to racism, but we also see how systemic racism is built into the system, the ways in which we govern ourselves, based on the practices that are available in society are not available, but practice and society.

00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:38.730 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Absolutely yeah it's really great I love examples real life examples, a good and they really highlight.

00:23:39.120 --> 00:23:45.060 Eric Sarver, Esq.: In a point taken from the abstract into the concrete and they cause people to think you know I can I ever done that have I seen that.

00:23:45.810 --> 00:23:50.430 Eric Sarver, Esq.: situation and I two things I heard there to your point right.

00:23:50.940 --> 00:23:56.700 Eric Sarver, Esq.: And I think this struggling your tongue destroyed, not only to the teacher react differently, but when the student was caught.

00:23:57.060 --> 00:24:08.430 Eric Sarver, Esq.: That privilege sort of influence him to be able to say Oh, but the right path right myself as a pastor class prep saying well, maybe i'm busted but they get caught up in the rest, which may be very different.

00:24:09.510 --> 00:24:18.240 Eric Sarver, Esq.: For a student of color and to your point it happens in the workplace, a lot, you know I represented employees also and employers in different scenarios and.

00:24:18.750 --> 00:24:28.860 Eric Sarver, Esq.: i'm always surprised when an employer, it says that their Defense against discrimination case is that they have these legitimate reasons for letting somebody go or disciplining them.

00:24:29.220 --> 00:24:39.510 Eric Sarver, Esq.: And they point to different infractions but what they don't look at it well Okay, is that rule being excessively or an equally enforcing with your black and Latino.

00:24:39.930 --> 00:24:48.420 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Workers of color the parents will say your White workers and somebody coming in late couple of times are they getting a pass because you can see yourself.

00:24:48.780 --> 00:24:54.330 Eric Sarver, Esq.: coming in late and sending out in your mind you think that person was late, the most I think they're really good reason, and you think.

00:24:54.660 --> 00:25:05.040 Eric Sarver, Esq.: That person was late, they must be trying to put one over on me get over on the system and what makes you may not even say that out loud right maybe that's the inside voice that talking to the.

00:25:05.340 --> 00:25:12.750 Eric Sarver, Esq.: To the current unconscious so having conversations with clients about hey tell me why all these evaluations or so slanted against.

00:25:13.380 --> 00:25:27.450 Eric Sarver, Esq.: work as a car, to get them say, well, they break these rules and such as well, have you seen a Caucasian workers do this or that or fall short of this and and they have to go back over record say here, we did actually see that, too, they were also spoken to.

00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:28.830 Eric Sarver, Esq.: was a written up.

00:25:28.890 --> 00:25:33.690 Eric Sarver, Esq.: No well that's a problem so and then going forward any resolve these issues in the workplace right.

00:25:33.990 --> 00:25:41.190 Eric Sarver, Esq.: So I think it's like you raised a really good point about this, you know the end, the whole thing and I colorblind starting from a critical good intention.

00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:47.490 Eric Sarver, Esq.: He kind of leads me to another question if I, if I may, unless you wanted to add something about.

00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:51.780 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I have, I have a tons of stories but i'd love your question because.

00:25:52.140 --> 00:25:54.900 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I mean, I know so many ways.

00:25:55.080 --> 00:26:02.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In which, particularly as is related to students, where they've been penalized, just as you're saying that that carries over into the.

00:26:02.700 --> 00:26:21.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: workplace, and I mean some very severe ways that employers don't see the ways in which they are that they have discriminatory practices, just as you said, and that's why it's important for them to get training and to be color conscious, so that they can evaluate whether they see.

00:26:23.010 --> 00:26:26.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know people of color is different from white folks but i'd love.

00:26:26.370 --> 00:26:34.350 Eric Sarver, Esq.: To take your question sure no, I think it like it actually what everything you're saying a trailing everything that you're saying tonight.

00:26:34.710 --> 00:26:45.870 Eric Sarver, Esq.: It kind of gets me to this other theme or question about racism in the workplace and how it can be much wider and broader you've given great examples of how it's a very broad topic.

00:26:46.290 --> 00:26:53.010 Eric Sarver, Esq.: People often think about racism white supremacy they think about, as you mentioned earlier, we talked about this, the the symbols of somebody.

00:26:53.280 --> 00:27:00.840 Eric Sarver, Esq.: carrying a confederate flag or kicky K sign or a torch and so, if you say to them, but employer, you know recent workplaces, is not acceptable.

00:27:01.800 --> 00:27:07.380 Eric Sarver, Esq.: many months Oh, I agree, I agree it's it's horrible white supremacy has no place in our company, so the question is, what do they.

00:27:07.800 --> 00:27:16.680 Eric Sarver, Esq.: mean, so I guess, my question is like in addressing racism right what are some of like the terms of our vocabulary that employers and employees.

00:27:17.070 --> 00:27:25.230 Eric Sarver, Esq.: need to be working with right what kind of when they communicate, how do they get on the same page about what white supremacy means or racism regression.

00:27:25.620 --> 00:27:27.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i'm preparing.

00:27:27.930 --> 00:27:29.010 Eric Sarver, Esq.: On hear your thoughts.

00:27:29.070 --> 00:27:30.390 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: i'm sorry say the last part of.

00:27:30.600 --> 00:27:32.070 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Your little past the break, I want to hear you.

00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:45.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Oh okay so that's a really, really good question Eric and they are lots of term, so I just want that first let's start with this white supremacy, because we hear that term passed around a lot and.

00:27:45.270 --> 00:27:48.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: We are used to thinking of white supremacy as.

00:27:48.900 --> 00:27:52.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know, like KKK right like people who were the hoods.

00:27:54.030 --> 00:28:02.160 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But we actually know that when we talk about white supremacy we're really talking about one race meaning white the white race.

00:28:02.910 --> 00:28:13.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That white people are superior to other races and that the standards in which we govern ourselves by are based on the white standards and if.

00:28:14.310 --> 00:28:25.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: If we do not fall in line with those standards then again there's something wrong so when we think about supremacy, we think about what supreme that's The easiest way for me you.

00:28:25.980 --> 00:28:37.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: kind of explain it and so they're unconscious ways in which we even do that so an example of white supremacy, particularly as it relates to unemployment.

00:28:39.030 --> 00:28:40.140 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: would be this.

00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:52.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I often hear folks say we cannot find good employee ease are good CEOs are good leaders who are of color.

00:28:53.910 --> 00:29:12.390 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And they only look at the Ivy league schools, as opposed to looking at the historically black colleges and universities, because they believe that the Ivy league schools are suffering to the historically black colleges and universities that's white supremacy in and of itself.

00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:20.760 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Where employers or CEOs or leaders choose to look for the people that they want to hire.

00:29:21.540 --> 00:29:34.380 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: unconsciously, they don't know that they're saying that those schools aren't as good but clearly those schools are as good I mean we have a Vice President who comes from an hbc you i'm a product of an HP see you.

00:29:35.130 --> 00:29:42.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: There are millions of other people who are so that's just one example of white supremacy in an unconscious way even.

00:29:44.010 --> 00:29:44.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: it's.

00:29:44.310 --> 00:29:58.770 Eric Sarver, Esq.: An interesting I know we've taken break one thing I just say about that is it's like what I hear is the re examine the metrics we use right when we're interviewing hiring what we think of as superior in quotes and what's based but that's based on, and I think that can be a great.

00:29:59.820 --> 00:30:03.150 Eric Sarver, Esq.: jumping off point we come back, we have to take a commercial break.

00:30:04.050 --> 00:30:19.260 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Because the equipment, the time, but I will say that i'm here tonight, my special guest Reverend Dr carolyn Curry every we're talking about dismantling race in the workplace, and we have more of this interesting topics so stick around to talk to them, I see and we'll be right back.

00:32:56.430 --> 00:33:06.300 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Welcome back to employment law today i'm your host Eric solver employment law business law attorney here tonight with my guest Reverend Dr carolyn Curry.

00:33:06.990 --> 00:33:27.090 Eric Sarver, Esq.: aka, also known as the Reverend Dr tlc and we're talking about this issue of spans and racism, which is just such a it's just so much depth the issue there's so much to talk about really and to listen to and i'm wondering just my question for you carolyn is.

00:33:28.140 --> 00:33:38.790 Eric Sarver, Esq.: What are some action steps that employers can take to dismantle racism, mainly in terms of identifying it like isolating it and eradicating it in the workplace.

00:33:38.970 --> 00:33:41.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hmm so.

00:33:43.140 --> 00:33:51.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The first thing that I would say is really, we have to take a look at ourselves and that's a difficult thing to do in any trainings that I do.

00:33:52.140 --> 00:34:12.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Any conversations I have, I invite people to take a look at themselves because the only way we can transform our organizations is to really transform ourselves, and when we take a look at ourselves, we have to really be willing to ask the question in what ways, am I engaged in.

00:34:14.310 --> 00:34:28.590 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: racist acts, whether they're intentional or unintentional or acts of white supremacy and what I want to say about even just in terms of thinking about racism is it doesn't require intention or malice.

00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:38.790 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because often people think well i'm not a racist i'm not out here doing what the what some of the police are doing or i'm not calling people the N word or i'm not doing X y&z.

00:34:39.390 --> 00:34:41.640 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But we can unintentionally.

00:34:42.330 --> 00:35:03.180 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: won't people through micro aggressions even, and so we first have to say to ourselves what in what ways, am I showing up to dismantle racism or in what ways, am I showing up where i'm actually perpetuating racism okay so that's, the first thing that we have to ask ourselves.

00:35:03.660 --> 00:35:06.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Secondly, then we have to say okay.

00:35:07.140 --> 00:35:16.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Then, once I asked myself that question, maybe I need to become aware of what are some implicit biases that I might hold.

00:35:17.310 --> 00:35:19.560 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: um because those are the things that we do.

00:35:19.770 --> 00:35:38.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: To begin to transform ourselves so some implicit biases like I just said to you before are things around taking a look at our hiring practices, who do we hire, how do we evaluate folks when we are working with them when we're looking at their knowledge, skills and abilities.

00:35:39.210 --> 00:35:40.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: How are we evaluating them.

00:35:41.070 --> 00:35:48.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: What standards are we basing those things on and so that's a really again taking a look at that and then.

00:35:48.810 --> 00:36:06.120 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: As we're even looking at those implicit biases we're also looking at the micro aggressions so that's three things that are very closely tied to each other right there's The self evaluations, the implicit biases and the micro aggressions and the micro aggressions could be things like.

00:36:07.140 --> 00:36:12.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Even even when we're in an office, for instance, and we're in a meeting.

00:36:13.110 --> 00:36:17.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And a person of color speaks with a strong tone of voice.

00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:18.390 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Right and.

00:36:18.420 --> 00:36:20.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: People say why are you attacking me.

00:36:20.850 --> 00:36:21.600 Eric Sarver, Esq.: hmm.

00:36:21.720 --> 00:36:23.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So if we're conscious.

00:36:23.310 --> 00:36:28.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: about the differences in the ways in which we communicate we wouldn't see it as an attack.

00:36:29.430 --> 00:36:42.360 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: If we're conscious that i'm speaking to you and i'm not smiling, it has nothing to do with you is just who, I am as an individual you wouldn't think i'm attacking you, but your implicit biases would say.

00:36:43.140 --> 00:36:54.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: black person angry black woman angry black male or because the media has also groomed us to think danger danger danger when we say person.

00:36:55.380 --> 00:37:04.080 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: This male then who's speaking with some excitement must be dangerous, when we also see white male speak in the same way, but they're not.

00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:13.320 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So, to be able to recognize the micro aggressions and say to yourself well now wait a minute Why am I feeling threatened by this person.

00:37:14.310 --> 00:37:24.960 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Asking yourself what does this have to do with me, as opposed to what does it have to do with that person, so it always keeps going back to the to the cellar.

00:37:25.200 --> 00:37:26.340 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Looking yourself yeah.

00:37:27.660 --> 00:37:31.770 Eric Sarver, Esq.: yeah and I think I wonder how.

00:37:33.120 --> 00:37:40.230 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Employers react when like if you say this them and trading or pointed out to them in the sense that.

00:37:41.430 --> 00:37:49.950 Eric Sarver, Esq.: kind of our phrases i'd say that a lot of people don't like to look at their own right false flaws it's a hard thing for people to do.

00:37:50.220 --> 00:38:04.050 Eric Sarver, Esq.: people think that a mistake or flow or an implicit bias equals, you know bad right there being that, and so they want to like saml the person i'm not you know, a bad evil person, how do we going to communicate the fact that, like you, couldn't be.

00:38:05.010 --> 00:38:11.220 Eric Sarver, Esq.: You know, over a good person not an evil person not a horrible person, but you can have some.

00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:21.480 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Some I guess you'd say or something challenging traits around bias and discrimination that you need to like take a look at without you know getting defensive.

00:38:21.900 --> 00:38:22.290 Eric Sarver, Esq.: I want to.

00:38:22.620 --> 00:38:24.000 Eric Sarver, Esq.: challenge you seen in your work.

00:38:24.300 --> 00:38:32.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, so, so let me say this so while I say that it begins with the transformation your own transformation.

00:38:33.300 --> 00:38:37.860 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: The way that I work with people to get them to taking a look at their.

00:38:38.220 --> 00:38:39.180 themselves.

00:38:40.590 --> 00:38:46.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is I first began with the history of how racism is embedded in our society.

00:38:47.790 --> 00:38:50.910 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And once we understand how it's embedded in our.

00:38:50.910 --> 00:39:03.510 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Society and that we are simply a product of our society folks can begin to hear it a little differently, but if I walk into a room and I go you're racist.

00:39:04.620 --> 00:39:04.830 Eric Sarver, Esq.: yeah.

00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:15.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And you have white privilege what it was the first thing, people are going to do they're going to shut down, so the basis of all of my work one, first and foremost, particularly as a pastor.

00:39:16.170 --> 00:39:18.030 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is I come from this place of love.

00:39:18.360 --> 00:39:28.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: hmm I always start out my conversations by saying we are engaged in this work, because we have a shared humanity.

00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:52.770 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But we need to understand how we got to this place so for me, I start out by helping folks to understand how we ended up here and then, once we do that, I say now, we have to do the personal work and so every activity that I give to people is all around self evaluation.

00:39:53.610 --> 00:40:09.270 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because that will get to the bottom line of what people need and their companies so so, for instance, as I talked about in my upcoming book, I actually when I get people to look at the self transformation, I actually ask people, why are you doing this.

00:40:09.300 --> 00:40:11.280 Eric Sarver, Esq.: One right motivation.

00:40:11.370 --> 00:40:31.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I find a cynic would say start with your why but, but my approach is a little bit different because, for me, I look at the greater humanity, so when when employers say I want people to come in and do diversity equity and inclusion I specifically go in and I do racial.

00:40:33.150 --> 00:40:36.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: equity, because when we say diversity equity and inclusion.

00:40:37.020 --> 00:40:51.660 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Oh bunch of things are thrown in there and races, the thing that we're most uncomfortable with talking about so I come in and I make it known we're focusing on race, but there's a way for us to focus on race, where we can have healthy conversations.

00:40:51.840 --> 00:41:02.100 Eric Sarver, Esq.: hmm and I think you know most healthy conversations if they're going to be rewarding often this and their heart, they can have some hard aspects to them right and so rewarding aspects as well, but.

00:41:03.030 --> 00:41:05.760 Eric Sarver, Esq.: I think that's like a great things that we talked about just the idea that.

00:41:06.150 --> 00:41:18.780 Eric Sarver, Esq.: You know, you can do this work with this man saying racism in the workplace, if i'm hearing correctly by looking at ourselves asking the hard questions I how am I a part of this bigger problem and and how is that.

00:41:19.560 --> 00:41:34.380 Eric Sarver, Esq.: hurting my employees harming myself harming others, and you know what biases biases are and player bias bias, I should say, is a play and then Lastly, what part of this comes from society as a whole, so it's not.

00:41:35.520 --> 00:41:40.440 Eric Sarver, Esq.: a sign that the person needs to be defensive their character is a person.

00:41:41.520 --> 00:41:42.570 Eric Sarver, Esq.: I mean, I hear.

00:41:43.650 --> 00:41:51.210 Eric Sarver, Esq.: That, I think it's interesting to have that that sort of front and Center, including the part about race that you know don't water down discussions of.

00:41:51.540 --> 00:42:08.070 Eric Sarver, Esq.: How we're going to be inclusive of people in different generations, and you know short and tall, and you know everything else is important to write LGBT Q inclusion all important, but if you have a very difficult issue we have to address it sometimes on its own is that is that.

00:42:09.600 --> 00:42:18.780 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Exactly exactly because here's The thing that I think you would find I think in any one of those things that you just mentioned, they should have their own training, to begin with.

00:42:19.380 --> 00:42:35.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But here's what I think that we fail to understand is that there's an intersection ality of race, with all of those things so, for instance, if we take the LGBT Q plus community.

00:42:36.720 --> 00:42:42.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: in and of itself it's important for us to talk about that that Community and have trainings on.

00:42:43.260 --> 00:42:43.710 Eric Sarver, Esq.: hmm.

00:42:43.980 --> 00:42:59.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But if we look at the intersection ality of race, we will find particularly as it relates to people who are murdered that they're more LGBT folks of color who are murdered than white folks.

00:42:59.790 --> 00:43:01.620 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So both things are horrible.

00:43:01.890 --> 00:43:14.580 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But again, if we do not parse out race and race is a social construct, I just want to say that it's all made up anyway, but we use that language, because it helps people to understand what we're talking about.

00:43:14.940 --> 00:43:24.360 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is that when we parse that out, we see that there are differences that's why, when we are doing trainings in our organizations.

00:43:25.530 --> 00:43:39.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I believe we should be, we should distinguish when we're doing dei trainings we should say no i'm going to focus solely on race, the problem is because it is difficult to talk about.

00:43:39.750 --> 00:43:40.440 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And people.

00:43:40.470 --> 00:43:53.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: don't have to take personal responsibility for that they don't want to spend a day or two talking about, because my trainings I don't believe in this one hour training and you're done.

00:43:54.210 --> 00:44:11.100 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I believe in doing the hard work of the training and so what happens is white people in general, get to opt out and say I don't feel like dealing with this, and one of the things that I hear organizations do is that they'll began the discussion on race.

00:44:11.520 --> 00:44:15.870 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And then, when something else comes along they'll say, well, we need to focus on this other thing.

00:44:15.930 --> 00:44:18.390 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So race old gets put on the backburner.

00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:28.590 Eric Sarver, Esq.: yeah and isn't that a sort of a forum or a manifestation of their privilege right they can afford to say that you know i'll come back to this or.

00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:41.370 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Not so crucial now, but not the same not true for, say, the President color might be agreed by this systemic racism, I think it's kind of a powerful thing to observe right to to honor that and.

00:44:42.240 --> 00:44:50.520 Eric Sarver, Esq.: I think it's just great stuff I want to hear more chill and you know how this goes doing your own show on the station about commercial breaks, they want to hear about we'll come back we'll talk about.

00:44:51.480 --> 00:45:02.280 Eric Sarver, Esq.: cemetery aliens further work towards eradicating racism in the workplace and her book as well that's coming out so stick around folks you're listening to talk radio nyc.

00:45:02.700 --> 00:45:09.660 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Our show employment law today i'm your host erick solver and my guest Reverend Dr tlc stick around folks we'll be right back.

00:47:11.790 --> 00:47:29.010 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Welcome back to employment law today i'm your host erick somber talking with Reverend Dr carolyn creamery secret intelligence also talking about the topic of dismantling racism in the workplace, which is hard work to do, but the warning.

00:47:30.120 --> 00:47:41.640 Eric Sarver, Esq.: So turn I want to ask you a question about this word, you talked about looking at ourselves and, being aware of our biases as a key starting point and how it can be difficult, but rewarding you talked about.

00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:57.300 Eric Sarver, Esq.: That this is like, not a one and done hour long thing it's it's an ongoing process, so why did you can talk about what are some of the benefits to employers and employees in tackling this this long standing challenging issue.

00:47:59.370 --> 00:48:05.940 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, you know for employers it's always about the money, the bottom line ends up being about the money right.

00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:12.630 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: So if you really kind of think about if your employees are happy, they will be more productive.

00:48:13.110 --> 00:48:27.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And you will get more out of them, first and foremost and you're more likely to be able to if you're in the selling business or whatever you're in to earn more money that's first and foremost.

00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:44.700 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I can think about this place that I visited during the summer and how you know how the employees were just so engaged with the customers, I was there for a couple of days, and I mean, these were employees of color in this place wasn't was you know.

00:48:46.170 --> 00:48:51.360 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: owned by you know white people and I went there for a spiritual retreat.

00:48:51.810 --> 00:48:52.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And the ways in.

00:48:52.950 --> 00:49:03.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: which the people of color talked about that place and talked about the work that was done there, I was even more engaged with the place where I was and.

00:49:03.870 --> 00:49:10.350 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I thought wow, this is a place, I can come back to because of how the employees talk so.

00:49:10.470 --> 00:49:11.280 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: right there.

00:49:11.370 --> 00:49:18.300 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: you're generating business The second thing is when employees are happier.

00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:23.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: They are less likely to suffer from.

00:49:24.450 --> 00:49:39.750 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: This from from let's say illnesses, for instance, because we know that when you're unhappy with your job, sometimes you can be sad, you can be depressed sometimes you can have also just physical symptoms, you can have more headaches, you can have.

00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:57.330 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: More gastrointestinal issues going on, you can have heart issues going on anxiety all of those things if you manifest those things yeah then you're more likely to take off work, which means the company suffers.

00:49:58.020 --> 00:50:06.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: In the company is not familiar with the fact that people of color experience something called racial battle fatigue.

00:50:07.140 --> 00:50:08.820 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: And what that is about is that.

00:50:08.940 --> 00:50:12.600 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: My day to day interactions that I have with the world.

00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:27.780 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: mm hmm and with the people that I work with just in general that has an impact on me emotionally physically and spiritually so I don't get to opt out like these people who decide to say I don't want to deal with racism.

00:50:27.840 --> 00:50:28.140 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Right.

00:50:28.680 --> 00:50:30.990 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But if employers understand that.

00:50:32.130 --> 00:50:34.530 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: 25 to 50%.

00:50:35.850 --> 00:50:43.110 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: More stress we experience 25 to 50% more stress people of color black people in particular.

00:50:43.410 --> 00:50:55.920 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: right if they understood that they would understand the impact it has on the employee and ultimately the impact it has on your productivity and your output.

00:50:56.310 --> 00:51:00.840 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But if we only see people as the same we won't recognize that.

00:51:01.350 --> 00:51:10.200 Eric Sarver, Esq.: True, and we want to even recognize their true abilities and tell them when you think about it, I mean if someone's like operating with all that extra stress and you know and.

00:51:11.160 --> 00:51:21.780 Eric Sarver, Esq.: And they're still doing such impressive work in this in the company, you know what does that say about their raw abilities and talent their perseverance and aren't those retreats that you want to have.

00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:27.780 Eric Sarver, Esq.: As an employer and with your workers with your work, employees, I mean I think that's enough that's something that you.

00:51:28.290 --> 00:51:43.110 Eric Sarver, Esq.: talked about as well, but just the fact that you know if two people are running in a race and one person is carrying a 20 pound backpack and run as fast as the other, what does that say about their their their athletic prowess or skills or abilities.

00:51:43.380 --> 00:51:47.370 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: mm hmm exactly and so why not nurture that.

00:51:47.610 --> 00:51:52.680 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah, why not, why not take the opportunity, and say hey, let me take this 25 pounds off this person.

00:51:52.920 --> 00:52:03.810 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, nurture them so that we can see how far they are actually able to go I think that's so fantastic when I look at culturally, when I look at.

00:52:04.620 --> 00:52:19.470 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: My race in particular i'm thinking about all that we have to go through, and still able to excel It gives me it actually inspires me, and I think that it can inspire other folks as well, I want to be clear about something.

00:52:19.860 --> 00:52:24.780 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: yeah I am not saying that white people don't have their own stressors.

00:52:25.290 --> 00:52:42.150 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I am not saying that people haven't worked really hard to get where they are because part of what happens in my trainings is that people will say, but I worked really hard to get Ram I pulled myself up on my own bootstraps yes, you worked hard, yes, yes, yes, you worked hard.

00:52:42.420 --> 00:52:42.690 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Right.

00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:47.130 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: But here's the difference, the color of your skin is never something.

00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:50.400 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: That you have to think about whereas I do.

00:52:50.550 --> 00:53:01.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Because people are judging me and treating me in a certain way, because of the color of my skin, and so we just want you to understand that piece of it.

00:53:01.680 --> 00:53:07.950 Eric Sarver, Esq.: yeah wow that's a powerful point where they're really you know I think it's it's very powerful to think about that.

00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:13.110 Eric Sarver, Esq.: it's um it says i've heard often said that you know, the idea of white privilege.

00:53:13.440 --> 00:53:20.070 Eric Sarver, Esq.: It doesn't mean you never hard life or some challenges or hardships, because I think people get very defensive like well, what about you know when my.

00:53:20.370 --> 00:53:31.170 Eric Sarver, Esq.: You know my wife died when I was 40 What about when I lost my my foot two diabetes and you may have had a lot of challenges, your life, but your race wasn't part of that.

00:53:32.340 --> 00:53:47.580 Eric Sarver, Esq.: In fact, if anything, you're raised me and me those challenges easier than if you were having the same challenges as a black man or woman as Latina as Indian you may have been like a very different chat on to you and i've had that condition with people i've watched their faces.

00:53:49.110 --> 00:54:01.050 Eric Sarver, Esq.: You know kind of change right like wow we are you saying that way it doesn't mean that my life is super easy and everything's hunky dory it's like no we're not saying that it's just that you know a lot of the hardest in your life your race was a one of those things.

00:54:01.140 --> 00:54:13.230 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Right right like you don't have to think about, for instance, like I do if i'm going to go out and walk my dog should I put this hoodie on.

00:54:13.290 --> 00:54:14.460 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Should I not put this.

00:54:15.210 --> 00:54:24.540 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: You know, things like that I have to be super conscious, depending on the area that i'm and if I go in a store with my hoodie on because it's raining.

00:54:24.870 --> 00:54:28.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: man to say Oh, I need to take this off while i'm in here.

00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:31.020 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: um you know it's it's an extra thing to think about.

00:54:31.590 --> 00:54:44.430 Eric Sarver, Esq.: All those things, and I wish we had some more an hour to an hour, but I know we have to wrap up i'm going to give you turn on the next two minutes or an hour and a half, just to talk about your show you how people can reach you and all that stuff floors yours.

00:54:45.600 --> 00:54:53.190 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Well, first I just would really, really love if people are looking out for the book on dismantling racism, because one of the things I want to say.

00:54:53.370 --> 00:55:02.250 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is I do talk about a process in there and it's, particularly for faith based people, you know how to navigate this conversation.

00:55:02.550 --> 00:55:10.740 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Around racism and to really stay engaged, so please be on the lookout for the dismantling racism, the sacred intelligence journey of faith.

00:55:11.100 --> 00:55:20.850 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: For transformational leaders, and I also would love for you to join the show, but please go to my website sacred

00:55:21.270 --> 00:55:38.610 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: I list on there, the classes, that I offer ways for you to get in touch with me i'm wrapping up my series right now on dismantling racism, but i'll be starting another one in November, my next six week course, so I hope you'll join me.

00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:50.160 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Well, thank you carolyn really great great information there great to know you book and again reach you at www right that secret saic already intelligence calm.

00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:58.620 Eric Sarver, Esq.: really looking forward to your book coming out, you know you talked about and in 2022, I believe, is that right early 2020.

00:55:58.650 --> 00:55:59.970 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Yes, yes.

00:56:00.420 --> 00:56:07.350 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Excellent yeah I mean this is just like such a great conversation that I really I found it very inspiring powerful moving at times, really.

00:56:08.040 --> 00:56:15.360 Eric Sarver, Esq.: So I want to thank you really sincerely for being on the show and i'm pamela today we're talking about this it difficult issue in a recent workplace.

00:56:16.260 --> 00:56:27.750 Eric Sarver, Esq.: I hope that our audience like takes away from this or that takes us in with an open mind open heart and can get to the roll up the sleeves and maybe contact you to make some of these hard changes.

00:56:28.920 --> 00:56:30.720 Eric Sarver, Esq.: I think it's really you know great to.

00:56:31.770 --> 00:56:35.370 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Have you remind your audience, one more time when your show is on talk radio and y Z.

00:56:35.940 --> 00:56:46.050 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Is at 11 o'clock on Thursday morning 11 o'clock Eastern time on Thursday morning, so I hope they'll join me there too, we have some really exciting guest.

00:56:46.590 --> 00:56:58.350 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Wonderful yeah well Dr thrilling right every every excuse me, the Reverend Dr carolyn Korean read the question there Thank you so much again for being on the show tonight it's it's great to have you on.

00:56:59.910 --> 00:57:02.310 Eric Sarver, Esq.: This topic and I wish you ready, good evening.

00:57:02.640 --> 00:57:04.950 Rev. Dr. Terrlyn Curry Avery: Thank you, thank you for having me, I appreciate it.

00:57:05.610 --> 00:57:08.310 Eric Sarver, Esq.: Welcome Oh, have a great night and we'll see you next week.

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