Michael F. Schein is a writer, speaker, business owner, and hype artist. He is the author of The Hype Handbook: 12 Indispensable Success Secrets From the World’s Greatest Propagandists, Self-Promoters, Cult Leaders, Mischief Makers, and Boundary Breakers.
His articles have appeared in Fortune, Forbes, Inc., Huffington Post, and Psychology Today.. He speaks to international audiences spanning from the northeastern United States to the southeastern coast of China.
Host Graham Dobbin opens the episode sharing a story about clearing out his email subscriptions, and how it had turned into a therapeutic experience. He introduces the episode’s guest, Michael F. Schein, and lists his impressive list of accomplishments. Schein explains his occupation as a “hype artist”, defining “hype” and how he uses it to help people take advantage of the creativity behind it. He describes his background and what brought him to the point of seeing his future position not as a guru, but as a hype artist. He speaks on how he was able to get people interested in his services and put his marketing skills to the test by taking the lessons learned from marketing his previous band in order to get a response from people, whether it be shocking or positive.
The next segment opens up with Schein describing how he took the path less taken, sharing his admiration for “norm-breakers”. He explains how people are attracted to going against things, mentioning that it’s better to not be contrarian. They relate these theories to rock music, and how rock bands weren’t able to take surprising risks, stating “prestige is the enemy of good art”. He explains one of the hype principles, becoming a trickster, the tool for people at the beginning of their career with no options in which it is acceptable to cause a ruckus. He states that there is a point in someone's career in which they should abandon their trickster persona, going mainstream once they identify the top of the mountain for them and knowing when they are able to reach it.
The third segment starts with Schein explaining why he wrote his book, The Hype Handbook, an expansion upon the articles that he had been writing. He speaks on the initial reaction to his articles, which garnered hundreds of thousands of views. Once he realized that other people in the world shared his thoughts, they began to look to him as a leader, considering the fact that humans are instinctively tribal. While some people are not always comfortable picking a fight with others, he states that it is better to be against something than for it. He continues to remind that it is not clickbait or personal, but purely opinion writing. They move to the topic of US politics, speaking on, while it is easy to move into other areas, he reveals that he is not perfect when it comes to politics, so he tends to stay away from it.
The final segment begins with Schein defining “expertise” versus being a “niche celebrity”. He explains how we can feel tensions, but cannot let them overwhelm us, comparing it to a “pebble in your shoe”. In the internet era, people can become well known in a very specific niche. Schein reveals that anyone can do this with a good heart, but they have to find the right audience to do this for. He finishes by talking about his “Hype Reads”, which he directly emails people his book recommendations and tends to continue to have conversations with those who contact him.
00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:38.430 Graham Dobbin: Welcome to the evening live on talk radio dot nyc my name is Graham dobbin, and this is the mind behind leadership.
00:00:39.030 --> 00:00:48.210 Graham Dobbin: and got an interesting guests this evening and it's it's kind of relevant that this week, I was cleaning up the subscriptions on.
00:00:48.930 --> 00:00:55.500 Graham Dobbin: My emails all those things that I kind of I seen something and I thought subscribe, and this seems like a good newsletter.
00:00:56.460 --> 00:01:03.420 Graham Dobbin: And it suddenly struck me how many people are out there saying this is what you should do, or tell me how great they are.
00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:12.690 Graham Dobbin: or dad is even suggesting that everything I was doing was wrong, the ones, for the good news is i'm not I don't know when that happened, I thought it was always something, it was a little bit special.
00:01:14.190 --> 00:01:24.240 Graham Dobbin: It shocked me this week that that's not the case if nobody's done that recently I think it's it's quite a therapeutic part of going in and cleaning out all those newsletters that we were doing.
00:01:24.660 --> 00:01:33.840 Graham Dobbin: And I think is it's very valid this week because my guest is Michael F shane know Michael is an author podcaster speaker.
00:01:34.320 --> 00:01:47.880 Graham Dobbin: And hype artist, which will come to is the founder and President of micro frame media who have launched campaigns and creating content for companies such as he be a gentle linkedin and record.
00:01:48.600 --> 00:01:54.450 Graham Dobbin: One of the things that Michael and his company does is they reverse engineer what the most successful celebrities have in common.
00:01:54.810 --> 00:02:02.520 Graham Dobbin: and create a process that turns his clients into the go to experts in their industry now that's definitely interesting but here's the next part.
00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:13.710 Graham Dobbin: Is the author of a book called the hype hadn't book is also got published articles seeing things such as what titles, such as Simon cynics as falafel to.
00:02:14.070 --> 00:02:28.050 Graham Dobbin: TIM ferriss everything that's wrong with the modern world and Tony robbins is a bigger jerk than you thought, but you can still learn from them potentially controversial we're good at this so Michael it's fantastic to see you.
00:02:28.980 --> 00:02:43.560 Michael Schein: It is good to see you Graham you know that I really liked that introduction, because most people give the stock introduction and don't put all that all the stuff i'm proudest of like insulting the guru's and you know my life's work there, so thank you.
00:02:44.700 --> 00:02:46.950 Graham Dobbin: hey, this is what we're going to talk about we're going.
00:02:46.950 --> 00:02:58.530 Graham Dobbin: To i'm going to apologize up front, if the if anybody's watching us on Facebook or seen the video of the sunshine it's because i'm coming from Sydney it's a gorgeous day here, no, no that's not always the case in the east coast and.
00:02:59.130 --> 00:03:05.430 Graham Dobbin: So Mike i'm going to start right away i'm on your website and the book you say you're a hype artist.
00:03:06.720 --> 00:03:07.650 Graham Dobbin: it's not know just hype.
00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:27.990 Michael Schein: it's a bit of hype, you know I define hype a little bit differently than a lot of people it's kind of you know i'm I feel like there have been a lot of words that gain power when people take them back right like the word queer right, I mean that was a really offensive word for.
00:03:29.250 --> 00:03:31.590 Michael Schein: You know, for gay people it meant weirdo.
00:03:32.010 --> 00:03:42.030 Michael Schein: And yet, people took it back right they said, you know we're queer that's that's a good thing, so I don't want to come pair what I do to that extremely difficult struggle.
00:03:42.480 --> 00:03:54.930 Michael Schein: But I define hype not negatively to me it's any set of activities that get people highly emotional to move them in a certain direction and that can be a horrible direction it often is.
00:03:55.200 --> 00:04:02.100 Michael Schein: But it can be a really, really good direction, but you know i'm not the first person to define hype this way the hip hop Community users hype in this way.
00:04:02.610 --> 00:04:14.130 Michael Schein: They talk about hype man and hyping things up, so you know I think when a lot of people think of marketing, which is what a lot of my competitors and contemporaries describe themselves that that they're marketers and a lot of them are really good.
00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:26.010 Michael Schein: Marketing really should mean this, it should be getting people to take an action getting people to buy, but what it's come to mean is that you understand a B testing and landing pages and seo and hubspot.
00:04:26.460 --> 00:04:37.890 Michael Schein: And those are tools, though that's not that's not the core should be deep psychological principles so just to kind of shift people's focus i've i've decided to call myself a hype artist.
00:04:39.300 --> 00:04:46.140 Graham Dobbin: Interesting right away, because what i'm hearing is when we when we talk about psychological movement towards it that's very creative.
00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:57.270 Graham Dobbin: And and there's it can come in lots of different frames, where it is what I see with a lot of marketing at the woman is a process and you've got to fill in the process rather than be creative.
00:04:58.350 --> 00:05:06.270 Michael Schein: yeah creative and really figuring out why you're doing it right, I mean you talked about these gurus and you're.
00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:18.150 Michael Schein: Really brilliant introduction, because you know i've really never heard someone say how come there are so many gurus that's like saying, everyone is you know, there are nine you know, there are 7.5 billion.
00:05:18.930 --> 00:05:26.820 Michael Schein: Really unique people are everyone's got higher than average IQ well how can that be possible if everyone is higher than average.
00:05:27.300 --> 00:05:28.050 Graham Dobbin: It doesn't work.
00:05:28.590 --> 00:05:42.600 Michael Schein: Right so um I think everyone is calling themselves a guru now right i'm a sales guru on this guru i'm in that guru but where was I going with this, what was the original question I just went off on how.
00:05:43.440 --> 00:05:45.510 Graham Dobbin: We were talking about the creativity and just about.
00:05:45.990 --> 00:05:50.940 Michael Schein: So it's creativity for sure, but what I was gonna say is these gurus what they do is they set.
00:05:51.720 --> 00:06:03.570 Michael Schein: If you do a and if you do be, and if you do see you're going to get be and they don't focus on this is how human brains always work, this is how humans working groups, they say, if you, you know build.
00:06:04.620 --> 00:06:17.040 Michael Schein: A landing again this is getting into the weeds, but if you build a three part launch series that culminates in five bullet points that lead to a ticking clock with a landing page here.
00:06:17.490 --> 00:06:34.560 Michael Schein: you're going to get the same results and by the time people are selling courses on how to do that it's probably a little too late, because everyone else is doing it so yeah it's creative but it's also about understanding humans before your understanding landing pages.
00:06:35.640 --> 00:06:48.450 Graham Dobbin: it's in that was actually i've been running a sale to programming here and i'm 20 odd people in the room, this week and, as usual, everybody wanted to know what's the script, what can I see.
00:06:48.570 --> 00:06:59.220 Graham Dobbin: restaurant to meet people by right and it's not until you know i'm explaining here's a framework that we've got finger when we're doing it we're gonna find out which we've got find the words.
00:07:00.570 --> 00:07:03.180 Michael Schein: it's exactly it and you can build a script.
00:07:04.200 --> 00:07:14.970 Michael Schein: And it might work for your product and your service i've seen people sell on scripts you know, but their scripts based on trial and error for that specific thing and and.
00:07:14.970 --> 00:07:16.620 Michael Schein: That type two I mean you can.
00:07:17.250 --> 00:07:25.380 Michael Schein: Understand general principles of what I call hype and we'll delve into that you can do a bunch of small tests until you figure out that formula that.
00:07:25.590 --> 00:07:39.600 Michael Schein: works and then scale it up, but it's the formula for that product for that campaign for that individual for that company yeah it's not like the formula that will work until the end of time for any business any person.
00:07:40.380 --> 00:07:52.680 Graham Dobbin: um how did you get to this point, but how did you because we'll dig in a little bit into the into how you see gurus i'm going to keep on calling them that how they see themselves as a good.
00:07:53.820 --> 00:07:56.340 Graham Dobbin: What brought you, to the point that you saw it differently.
00:07:59.190 --> 00:08:10.620 Michael Schein: I think, maybe because I never wanted to be in business and I never saw myself becoming a salesperson or a marketer I I have wanted to be a writer.
00:08:11.490 --> 00:08:26.040 Michael Schein: And an artist's quote unquote not a visual artist, but doing something arty farty since I was little you know I mean I remember I learned to read really early, I think I remember being like in first grade and then having this.
00:08:27.090 --> 00:08:40.800 Michael Schein: teacher come in to teach creative writing once a week or whatever they call it, and I, and I would write stories and people would laugh, I wrote one about wrestle mania like 27 which they're probably up to now, this was like 1984 or whatever you know but.
00:08:41.010 --> 00:08:48.570 Michael Schein: yeah and I remember just loving that feeling and then just wanting to do that, so I wanted to write and then I got older and got really into music.
00:08:49.350 --> 00:09:01.380 Michael Schein: But it was still about the writing I had this conceptual kind of punk band this kind of glam the pump and I wasn't a great player I played with guys better than me, and I would create these big conceptual stories and this and that so.
00:09:02.130 --> 00:09:12.240 Michael Schein: um yeah I mean the only reason I got into business at the beginning was because my band broke up and I was despondent and I needed to make a living, so I got a job.
00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:20.820 Michael Schein: I was a big company that had a department that was doing like an entertainment startup but that department folded but I guess, I had a little bit of.
00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:28.950 Michael Schein: talent in some capacity or I was smarter hard working or what have you should they shifted into the main company, which was a company that ran.
00:09:29.610 --> 00:09:40.560 Michael Schein: Basically customer service call centers talk about scripts you know they started as a telemarketing company, but by the time I was there, they like answered the phones for.
00:09:41.430 --> 00:09:48.900 Michael Schein: You know it's kind of business process outsourcing sure they pick up the overflow of calls from like huge companies fortune 100 companies.
00:09:49.470 --> 00:09:57.630 Michael Schein: So I don't know I thought i'd be there, a year I was there for eight years, the first three years, I found it a little bit exciting, because I was learning something new and I.
00:09:57.630 --> 00:09:58.680 Michael Schein: felt like an adult.
00:09:58.770 --> 00:10:09.150 Michael Schein: I mean the one bad thing about trying to make your living in the arts is a lot of fun in your 20s, but when you're getting a little, and I was still in my 20s but i'm ambitious and.
00:10:10.470 --> 00:10:16.110 Michael Schein: You know I just started to like feel bad about myself not really moving forward.
00:10:16.260 --> 00:10:23.070 Michael Schein: Right yeah that was exciting to make a real paycheck and a good paycheck but by the time I was there, eight years.
00:10:23.910 --> 00:10:27.990 Michael Schein: I was really unhappy again world's smallest violin a lot of people have it worse.
00:10:28.380 --> 00:10:40.470 Michael Schein: But you know, I have some talents i'm good at i've always been good at, as I said, writing i'm creative and I just felt like Is this what i've been put on the earth for like I could see myself being 55 years old, and this was when I was like 33.
00:10:41.100 --> 00:10:45.390 Michael Schein: doing the exact same thing just with a bigger title just out of fear.
00:10:46.560 --> 00:11:00.180 Michael Schein: So you know I read an article about what what they now call demand generation and writing, which is basically copywriting like writing White Papers and case studies and stuff and I knew I could do that well.
00:11:01.380 --> 00:11:13.200 Michael Schein: So I got a few clients and I quit my job, and that that Quick Start ended up really it fizzled out quick like I got a few clients and they kept with me.
00:11:13.620 --> 00:11:26.820 Michael Schein: But it turned out, I was really bad at sales, I mean I and marketing honestly like I I because I had become very corporate by this point so when I thought of marketing I did what I just set out to do, I read every book on you know.
00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:32.430 Michael Schein: gosh all the technical stuff you know, and I would I would set all that up but I wasn't.
00:11:33.930 --> 00:11:43.710 Michael Schein: yeah I wasn't really thinking about like, how do you get people so excited about what you're doing that they want to follow you I was thinking about how do I set up this ad CD sales funnel blah blah blah.
00:11:43.980 --> 00:11:52.050 Michael Schein: But some people listening to your show might not even know what i'm talking about so um when I burn through a year's worth of savings, I was ready to throw in the towel.
00:11:52.620 --> 00:11:59.430 Michael Schein: And I remember back when I was in that band We actually had a pretty good following and, and the reason was.
00:11:59.940 --> 00:12:05.040 Michael Schein: I was actually good at marketing, although we never thought it marketing we caught it hate, we would say we're going to hype stuff up.
00:12:05.460 --> 00:12:15.450 Michael Schein: So you like we used to sell this call about arlene's grocery which is small but it's a really famous club, like the stroke started out there, we used to start out all the time we had a residency there and.
00:12:16.260 --> 00:12:22.170 Michael Schein: The way we would do that you know we got ourselves on showtime at the Apollo knowing, we would be booed off so that was.
00:12:24.210 --> 00:12:40.920 Michael Schein: And so we were on TV I used to dress like a nun for this song called Ash Wednesday we used to put up really offensive posters whatever so I said to myself, like you know there's a discrepancy here, because what this marketing stuff i'm really bad at.
00:12:42.060 --> 00:12:50.550 Michael Schein: But if marketing is judged by getting the result you want to yeah then become a rock star who becomes a rock star, we probably weren't good enough, honestly, you know.
00:12:50.940 --> 00:12:51.720 Michael Schein: yeah but.
00:12:52.860 --> 00:13:04.530 Michael Schein: yeah I mean we had a following we we use that you know we Wednesday night we pack a place to the to the brim we you know all that so we're in the cover of New York press so um.
00:13:05.370 --> 00:13:20.070 Michael Schein: yeah I think I started using those underlying strategies to market myself or hate myself i've been at worked in business so that's when I started to realize, you know, there are these fundamental human dynamics that you could use you could do that.
00:13:21.090 --> 00:13:36.540 Michael Schein: Eventually, I learned Augustus was doing in the Roman Empire through epic poetry and we're doing now through social media but it's not about learning all the little corporate beings and dongs and you know.
00:13:37.920 --> 00:13:54.960 Michael Schein: A, B testing and they said, those are really important tools, but that's not that's not the architecture that's the hammer and nail, so I think I accidentally learned out of being a different kind of guy than most people in my field and by being desperate honestly.
00:13:55.500 --> 00:14:01.980 Graham Dobbin: i'm sometimes sometimes I simply say, become more creative most creative when we're we're desperately need something to.
00:14:02.820 --> 00:14:11.700 Graham Dobbin: happen we're gonna go to break in a moment, but Michael because things want to do when we come back and you're talking about kind of creating that height, creating that noise doing a lot of good stuff.
00:14:12.630 --> 00:14:22.410 Graham Dobbin: I do want to start to dig into some of the things that you've you've you've written and it seems that one of the things that you do is go against the norm.
00:14:22.860 --> 00:14:33.240 Graham Dobbin: or just a challenge for our challenge what's what's you know, maybe accepted what people other people saying about socially accepted and just create that good that.
00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:40.080 Graham Dobbin: yeah So what we wanted to get into that because i'm kind of with you on it, if everybody could don't wander then.
00:14:40.530 --> 00:14:47.490 Graham Dobbin: it's too busy let's try the other one so we're going to dig into that just after the break just kind of see where your through your thoughts are.
00:14:47.820 --> 00:14:54.150 Graham Dobbin: And i'm sure how you handle the criticism on it, because i'm sure you when we when we stop people's thinking.
00:14:55.110 --> 00:15:10.080 Graham Dobbin: What can can come back as you're listening to the mind behind leadership we are really lucky to have Michael F shine on this evening we're talking about hype and marketing and make it a noise and doing some really good stuff we'll be back after these.
00:18:11.940 --> 00:18:19.740 Graham Dobbin: Welcome back to the mind behind leadership Michael, what do you think of the theme Jim being a musician you're okay with that we normally get people dancing at this stage.
00:18:20.280 --> 00:18:21.360 Michael Schein: I was shaking my head oh.
00:18:21.390 --> 00:18:22.830 Graham Dobbin: yeah it's pretty good yeah Bobby.
00:18:22.860 --> 00:18:25.050 Graham Dobbin: yeah that's good that's good enough for me.
00:18:26.700 --> 00:18:38.070 Graham Dobbin: i'm talking about taking a path that other people don't take we're talking about do some stuffs slightly differently, it sounds like you've done this for a long time i'm going to put a say that that's quite a brief thing to do.
00:18:39.300 --> 00:18:44.070 Graham Dobbin: When you're not you're not just following the norm and standing out just say so.
00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:50.340 Michael Schein: yeah, I guess, I mean, thank you, that means a lot, I like thinking of myself as brave.
00:18:50.370 --> 00:18:55.050 Michael Schein: it's yummy I am i'm kind of two people in one.
00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:57.090 Michael Schein: eye.
00:18:59.040 --> 00:18:59.640 Michael Schein: So.
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:06.480 Michael Schein: And i'm almost more embarrassed about the first part, even though it's the part that less people would be embarrassed about.
00:19:06.990 --> 00:19:18.240 Michael Schein: i'm sort of a Goody two shoes in some areas of my life like like I was a good student, you know I mean I worked really hard in in in put a lot of pressure on myself in high school I don't know where it came from.
00:19:19.410 --> 00:19:26.790 Michael Schein: You know, not a huge party or, especially when I was young, of course, we all go through our stuff when we were older, you know that that sort of thing i'm.
00:19:27.570 --> 00:19:33.090 Michael Schein: can follow rules when I need to, but in my quote unquote art, you know whether that's my.
00:19:34.020 --> 00:19:43.680 Michael Schein: Articles or my attracted campaigns to attract attention for clients and myself or the music I made or even when I would write fiction.
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:58.350 Michael Schein: I I really admire norm breakers, and I don't like see the point of going out into the world to do what I call you know in fiction I caught a kitchen table stories, you know, a family talking about their problems around yeah.
00:19:58.860 --> 00:20:07.050 Michael Schein: You know and um I don't know why what's with that dual thing so like a lot of people would see me like people who I am.
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:21.810 Michael Schein: You know my mom is so funny she's my biggest supporter his moms are and I had this video of our band, and she like took it, I went to a small high school and she took it through, like some of the teachers who inspired me, which was a little embarrassing you.
00:20:21.810 --> 00:20:23.640 Michael Schein: Know showed it to the teachers.
00:20:23.910 --> 00:20:25.380 Michael Schein: And they like couldn't believe it.
00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:32.490 Michael Schein: Was me because I would go on stage and do all this crazy stuff i'm just not like that in real life so yeah I guess i'm.
00:20:33.840 --> 00:20:34.920 Michael Schein: As a person.
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:42.120 Michael Schein: I don't know if i'm being brave or if it comes natural, but as a as a business tactic it's almost.
00:20:43.800 --> 00:20:51.480 Michael Schein: Your you're kind of being foolish and reckless if you don't draw a line in the sand, I mean I see all of these companies.
00:20:52.050 --> 00:21:03.540 Michael Schein: And people and i'll say to them like what's your point of view and they'll and they'll God bless them but they'll say something like we are an end to end solution of death and and they think that they're being i'm.
00:21:05.370 --> 00:21:16.140 Michael Schein: Not offending people, but there has been a lot of science and research on the fact that human beings, and we can talk about this, if you want much more deeply attracted.
00:21:16.800 --> 00:21:23.430 Michael Schein: To being against something and forming tribes and around what they're against and that can be a being against an idea.
00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:27.450 Michael Schein: than being attracted for something like you can tell them why something is great.
00:21:27.990 --> 00:21:37.350 Michael Schein: You can tell them where your computer is awesome and then your Dell, you know people by Dale because it's cheap, you know because it, you can use it and that's okay that's a business model.
00:21:38.010 --> 00:21:45.810 Michael Schein: But think about what apple did when they came back in the in I guess the early 2000s or late 90s, they did the whole MAC versus PC thing.
00:21:46.080 --> 00:21:58.830 Michael Schein: yeah you're you're you're a MAC user What that means is you're against corporate you know being like the guy with the belly and the and the, you know the mustache the corporate drone you're more like justin lumps and people were buying a MAC because they.
00:21:59.070 --> 00:22:12.180 Michael Schein: wanted to say i'm not a corporate drone even though of course they were corporate drones I mean we're all corporate drones for the most part, you know so people are really attracted to being against things so from a totally calculated hype business point of view.
00:22:13.230 --> 00:22:18.090 Michael Schein: it's almost more brave not to be contrarian.
00:22:20.730 --> 00:22:33.930 Graham Dobbin: it's interesting you mentioned and i'm what i'm hearing and and correct me if i'm wrong that kind of wanted to force things where you tried this out being different was on a stage or in front of other people did that allow you to have a different persona let me ask you the.
00:22:34.020 --> 00:22:34.260 Michael Schein: You know.
00:22:35.040 --> 00:22:37.080 Michael Schein: Why, I mean I would always write like.
00:22:37.470 --> 00:22:46.350 Michael Schein: I like the stories, I wrote you know I liked writers like you know, Kurt vonnegut and Stephen king and I like movies, like Pulp Fiction when I was a kid so my stories.
00:22:47.220 --> 00:22:54.270 Michael Schein: They weren't very good at the time, but like we're full of violence and foul language and whatever so it wasn't like you know, I was always trying to.
00:22:55.650 --> 00:23:03.270 Michael Schein: Be rabble rouser and uh but yeah on the stage was the first time that I really tried on a new persona that wasn't me.
00:23:04.410 --> 00:23:10.110 Michael Schein: In a way, that you know quite a few people were looking at it and paying attention to it yeah.
00:23:10.890 --> 00:23:20.190 Graham Dobbin: it's a big because I know that I switch between and a switch if we're doing it virtually that's one thing in front of a group it's completely different.
00:23:20.670 --> 00:23:31.950 Graham Dobbin: And you can take risks, and one of the things i've written down here, you spoke about dressing up as a non you, you know you would get booed off, but one of the things that that that always fascinates me is like to your convenience.
00:23:32.790 --> 00:23:33.960 Graham Dobbin: When they go in, because what they're.
00:23:33.990 --> 00:23:42.360 Graham Dobbin: Doing is they're shocked and thought patterns, the disruptive what, for what you would expect to happen and we pay to go and have our thought patterns disrupted.
00:23:42.390 --> 00:23:42.780 Michael Schein: yeah.
00:23:42.810 --> 00:23:44.370 Michael Schein: When is it laughter is right, you know.
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:48.600 Graham Dobbin: yeah and then we can drop things and we learned in that way, but we're.
00:23:48.600 --> 00:23:56.790 Graham Dobbin: having fun we go godstone bit another split expect it to be kind of very mainstream we expect something from from.
00:23:57.450 --> 00:24:10.080 Graham Dobbin: From music from from a rock concert or from somebody who's speaking, or you know that needs there's there's almost a pattern that needs to go along with those, but if you go and see a comedian they can they can almost do whatever they want.
00:24:10.380 --> 00:24:23.580 Michael Schein: it's funny that you say a rock concert That just shows you how rock is really why it's about to die because rock was the ultimate outsider our forum, I mean it was it was you know.
00:24:24.810 --> 00:24:37.530 Michael Schein: yeah I mean I just saw a video that i've seen a million times of the WHO going on the smothers brothers and Keith moon without telling anyone put explosives in his drum kit and blew up the drum kit you know and like.
00:24:38.280 --> 00:24:40.470 Michael Schein: pete Townsend like actually most part of his hearing.
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:57.690 Michael Schein: But yeah you don't see that anymore, I mean you go to a Bruce springsteen show or whatever it's good but it's you know everything is planned out, and I have this idea that prestigious the enemy of good art once it starts getting official you know it's it's it's on its last legs.
00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:09.360 Graham Dobbin: um yeah is it interesting you mentioned springsteen because one of the one of the things that he's he's got a lot of very positive press for us doing springsteen broadway which was already different.
00:25:09.690 --> 00:25:16.830 Graham Dobbin: But yeah I went to see that was lucky enough to get tickets to go through it and it was it was obviously scripted there.
00:25:16.890 --> 00:25:18.480 Graham Dobbin: Was there was you know it was.
00:25:18.540 --> 00:25:23.160 Graham Dobbin: timed within within seconds of itself and the responses, but all.
00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:28.500 Graham Dobbin: There, which was good just getting up free floors a little bit more interest.
00:25:28.710 --> 00:25:38.520 Michael Schein: This might be I know we're gone in a lot of directions, but there's a chapter in my book, where I save the comma trickster and that's one of the height principles and what I basically say is.
00:25:39.690 --> 00:25:51.360 Michael Schein: yeah, especially if you're an outsider you you, you need to raise what I call benevolent mischief and I talked about that, but what I also say is that some people go too far there's a time to shift away from that.
00:25:52.200 --> 00:26:01.200 Michael Schein: Being a trickster is the tool for people who are at the beginning of their career who don't have options, you know what I mean if it's your only way in you have to raise a ruckus.
00:26:01.560 --> 00:26:11.460 Michael Schein: But where some people go wrong is they stay a trickster and this isn't romantic but like I don't know Dennis rodman right he got a lot of attention in basketball.
00:26:11.970 --> 00:26:21.090 Michael Schein: When you know me David Madonna Madonna told them, you know you're a good ballplayer but like no one knows who you are dye your hair do antics blah blah blah, and it.
00:26:21.090 --> 00:26:30.630 Michael Schein: worked and he became got all these endorsements but he's still doing it, he can't play any other role and now he's being invited to North Korea and he's a joke and easy's ridiculous.
00:26:31.080 --> 00:26:40.530 Michael Schein: Whereas I talked about Ryan holliday who is this guru but he's one I really like he wouldn't call himself and he comes off a writer.
00:26:41.010 --> 00:26:48.960 Michael Schein: And when he started, he was the youngest ever director of marketing at a major company, it was American Apparel and he would do just.
00:26:49.320 --> 00:26:58.020 Michael Schein: crazy stuff to get attention spray painting his own billboards in the middle of the night, you know hiring porn stars to pose for clothing ads naked, you know, whatever.
00:26:59.040 --> 00:27:09.660 Michael Schein: And you would never know it now because he's restyled himself he's like the foremost proponent of stoicism you know he writes books on stoicism and he never cracks a joke and.
00:27:10.260 --> 00:27:16.050 Michael Schein: He actually wrote a book exposing his own methods there's like a form of penta independent and so there's a.
00:27:16.110 --> 00:27:21.180 Michael Schein: Time there's a time to go mainstream in in in.
00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:25.710 Michael Schein: In height and in attaining commercial success.
00:27:27.420 --> 00:27:35.640 Graham Dobbin: When do we know for now is how do we work that one out, for example, something like Dennis rodman when when there's some yo identical been say.
00:27:35.940 --> 00:27:46.410 Graham Dobbin: Okay enough, I need to flip this again and it's and it's not necessarily going back to the mainstream is it's okay that parts done, I need to be doing something else.
00:27:46.650 --> 00:27:59.430 Michael Schein: yeah I mean I think it's part art and it's part science, but I think the main thing is that you got to know what the top of the mountain looks like right like Ryan holiday always knew that his end goal was to make his living nearly as as an author, but.
00:28:00.060 --> 00:28:07.650 Michael Schein: He didn't want to just send manuscripts in and blah blah blah he wanted money as fuel to do that, and he had no connections, he had nothing so.
00:28:07.950 --> 00:28:19.800 Michael Schein: He knew that the best way to make that happen as a as a non insider was to play the role of the trickster, but when he saw it looked around himself and all his friends were millionaires and.
00:28:20.130 --> 00:28:29.880 Michael Schein: You know his activities were getting taking him farther from his end of all like, he was tied in with dov charney, who was the American apparel guy was a very dysfunctional culture.
00:28:30.330 --> 00:28:41.460 Michael Schein: He you know he he got to a point where his balls were taking him his actions were taking them farther from his end goal not closer I think that's when you need to switch and you just constantly have to be monitoring that.
00:28:42.600 --> 00:28:48.540 Graham Dobbin: And there's no click on there, but a boat to get there, right after this break is we're flying through this Michael.
00:28:49.470 --> 00:28:52.080 Graham Dobbin: I can see that there's another three or four shows in this already.
00:28:53.010 --> 00:29:04.980 Graham Dobbin: When we when we come back from the break, we will let's let's go into the articles let's look at how you challenge what the candidate then almost thinking is when we're looking at people like Simon cynics unfairness Tony robbins Gary vee these type of people.
00:29:06.780 --> 00:29:21.150 Graham Dobbin: By you're challenging it what you're challenging and kind of what the reactions been from that you're listening to my mind leadership we got Michael Sheen this evening we're talking hype we're talking controversy we're talking challenge will be right back after these.
00:32:13.320 --> 00:32:17.310 Graham Dobbin: Welcome back to bang bang leadership we're talking hype Michael.
00:32:18.750 --> 00:32:31.230 Graham Dobbin: So let me just start with the headline to let me remind people Simon cynic is full of hot air, Tim ferriss is everything that's wrong with the modern world Tony robbins as a bigger jerk than you thought, but you can still learn from them.
00:32:32.490 --> 00:32:32.910 Graham Dobbin: um.
00:32:34.260 --> 00:32:37.290 Graham Dobbin: by those titles What was your thoughts fine.
00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:48.090 Michael Schein: Well, there are a couple of things here I mean one was that, just like we were talking before the break picking those kinds of fights.
00:32:49.410 --> 00:32:58.920 Michael Schein: gets you a lot of attention, but I don't get fights that I don't believe in and i'm not a troll right So why did I talk about these people yeah um yeah so so.
00:32:59.970 --> 00:33:00.750 Michael Schein: You know.
00:33:01.890 --> 00:33:06.540 Michael Schein: One of the reasons I wrote the hype handbook the book that I that I put out was.
00:33:06.870 --> 00:33:18.480 Michael Schein: It was a total outgrowth of these articles for one when I would write an article on a different topic, it would get like a few thousand views and, like the assignment centric article has like I don't know 170,000 year.
00:33:19.230 --> 00:33:28.710 Michael Schein: So anytime I would write something like that it would work and I thought it was just that I was picking fights but what it really was was that I think I tapped into this concept that.
00:33:29.790 --> 00:33:40.650 Michael Schein: There are certain people out there who have just by natural sort of inclination figured out how group psychology works.
00:33:41.370 --> 00:33:50.790 Michael Schein: And some of them are completely benign figures like Simon cenac you know I took down certain elements of his message, but he seems like a perfectly decent human being.
00:33:51.300 --> 00:33:58.920 Michael Schein: Some of them are really, really good people like Martin Luther King, many of them are horrible people like like Jim Jones you know the cult.
00:33:58.920 --> 00:34:09.600 Michael Schein: leader um, but if you strip away the content of their message the site, the mass psychology principles or group dynamics that they use.
00:34:10.260 --> 00:34:16.050 Michael Schein: are remarkably consistent and so what I was saying in those articles was.
00:34:16.650 --> 00:34:26.880 Michael Schein: If you want to learn how to become really successful if you did defined by six success by getting a whole lot of people to follow what you're doing and perhaps pay you money for it.
00:34:27.720 --> 00:34:42.150 Michael Schein: Instead of paying attention to what these people tell you to do the product or selling is usually advice, maybe there's good stuff in that, but if it was that good across the board, why isn't everyone in that arena a millionaire.
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:47.370 Michael Schein: yeah instead of that pay attention to what they do.
00:34:48.390 --> 00:34:49.560 Michael Schein: So, in other words.
00:34:51.120 --> 00:34:55.710 Michael Schein: Tony robbins can talk all day long about all of these things.
00:34:56.100 --> 00:35:08.640 Michael Schein: That you're supposed to be doing but think about the fact that the reason he conveys his message the way he does, is it gets you into a transcendent state with lights the screaming the sideways clapping the walking on hot coals.
00:35:09.540 --> 00:35:15.330 Michael Schein: He that gets you into a transcendent state, so you get into this buying state you think your life's gonna be completely different.
00:35:16.020 --> 00:35:25.110 Michael Schein: And then, when you leave the arena in about a week you've gone back into your normal life and you blame yourself, because he didn't actually have to do the implementation for you yeah.
00:35:25.770 --> 00:35:29.640 Michael Schein: Do you blame yourself and you come back to get in that transcendent state again so think about.
00:35:30.090 --> 00:35:37.230 Michael Schein: Do I want to follow Tony robbins advice like who's working for or do I want to follow Tony robbins, what can I extract.
00:35:37.860 --> 00:35:54.180 Michael Schein: Can I use more sensory stimulation yeah and I inject a little bit of pain into the pleasure idea that's the hot coal walkie or the fact that a lot of gurus talk about there's unparalleled change the world is going into a pit but we're going to give you the key the same.
00:35:55.320 --> 00:36:05.010 Michael Schein: follow what they do and then try to repurpose that to really good products i'm not saying Tony robbins is selling a bad product that's neither here nor there.
00:36:05.700 --> 00:36:14.190 Michael Schein: But a lot of these people are and my whole thing is, if you can use it to sell garbage imagine what you can do use it to sell good stuff it.
00:36:14.250 --> 00:36:19.470 Graham Dobbin: yeah it's interesting I mean Tony robbins pretty business model, you get people hyped up the good.
00:36:19.770 --> 00:36:19.860 Michael Schein: Old.
00:36:20.100 --> 00:36:21.990 Graham Dobbin: Days model then come back for.
00:36:22.020 --> 00:36:23.100 Graham Dobbin: For the next fix of it.
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:29.490 Graham Dobbin: And I suppose if people get something out of it that that that works so quite happy.
00:36:29.910 --> 00:36:44.820 Michael Schein: And I know people who who say that he's if he's he's got a lot out of it, I don't but that's not again that's neither here nor there but i'm just saying follow once he does, though his model his methods of communication those work unequivocably please.
00:36:45.330 --> 00:36:56.130 Graham Dobbin: don't don't if you come across this guy I remember growing up quite a number of years ago 10 years ago went to one of these weekend conferences, it was like a 20 robbins light by by a guy called Chris howard's.
00:36:56.610 --> 00:36:59.880 Graham Dobbin: And, and there was a there was all this hype was in London was all this hype.
00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:09.450 Graham Dobbin: Over the three days, and then there was this big so there was selling all the way through it, there was this big sale to go to not know millionaires billionaires club.
00:37:10.110 --> 00:37:16.770 Graham Dobbin: You were going to go to this island you're going to do these things that are members of the sales people were really pushing I said how many billionaires are going to be in there.
00:37:18.090 --> 00:37:31.860 Graham Dobbin: And it was silence, so if it's a billionaires book club, who are the billionaires and it was just absolute silence is this is just we've got to prove the concepts we've got a sure thing that things that really, really work and.
00:37:32.010 --> 00:37:34.440 Michael Schein: That actually sounds like con artistry I mean I.
00:37:35.130 --> 00:37:37.680 Michael Schein: agree if they're selling a billionaire boys club where there's no.
00:37:38.070 --> 00:37:39.450 Michael Schein: You know billionaires I mean.
00:37:40.890 --> 00:37:49.770 Graham Dobbin: Completely yeah completely with you on that um what can what kind of reaction, did you have to these articles.
00:37:51.990 --> 00:37:53.250 Michael Schein: Well, on one hand.
00:37:54.390 --> 00:37:59.910 Michael Schein: I got hundreds of thousands of views and, in some ways they started my career but um yeah.
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:10.560 Michael Schein: So the first one of these articles that I wrote was called why Gary van der chuck is flat out wrong I don't know if your your your listeners are the kind of people who who know who he is I was out to dinner with a friend.
00:38:11.250 --> 00:38:21.450 Michael Schein: telling them this story and they're like I don't know who, that is because he's he's the definition of a niche celebrity like if you're in my world he's like Elvis but, in other words, people don't.
00:38:21.510 --> 00:38:32.700 Michael Schein: know who he is, but you know he's this Internet guru and probably the biggest there is, and I think he's a brilliant businessman, you know and a lot of ways, and I think his wine library.
00:38:33.270 --> 00:38:43.380 Michael Schein: TV and wine library really wonderful businesses, but it is possible message again I thought fell into this sort of guru category where it's like.
00:38:44.220 --> 00:38:56.790 Michael Schein: You know, getting people to work really hard on behalf of a cause that you promote you know the moonies do that it's a very good cold tactic so um I wrote an article calling him out, but I have a a.
00:38:58.170 --> 00:39:05.040 Michael Schein: ulterior motive at the time, I mean I was selling a very structured approach to content generation and he was going around saying.
00:39:06.780 --> 00:39:15.150 Michael Schein: that the only way to become successful social media is to tweet 24 seven like at the time Twitter was the biggest thing and I just didn't believe that and I sold an alternative.
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:32.670 Michael Schein: But I was a nobody, this was just my newest thing that I was eating away at so I wrote this article in ink I was terrified I send it out and he responded to me he made a video that night talking about the article and me by name and.
00:39:34.350 --> 00:39:42.420 Michael Schein: I always not happy, I mean I thought I really had made a mistake, I had not become this student of hype, yet I, and I was like oh man like.
00:39:43.170 --> 00:39:53.580 Michael Schein: This is bad, you know I mean, and he was agitated and this and that, but what was funny is by the next morning I had like 15 new Twitter followers and then it just like grew after that, like.
00:39:53.580 --> 00:39:54.120 Michael Schein: crazy.
00:39:54.570 --> 00:39:58.110 Michael Schein: And then I started getting business and what I figured out was happening was.
00:39:59.190 --> 00:40:08.640 Michael Schein: there's all these people out in the world who probably felt the same way I did, but they didn't have a leader to coalesce around and people are tribal.
00:40:09.180 --> 00:40:20.490 Michael Schein: So they were just thinking this stuff in their head and there are these Gary van der chuck fans they're called maniacs and they coalesce around his message, but now there's oh there's this other message and it's against Gary van der chuck message.
00:40:21.150 --> 00:40:30.090 Michael Schein: So yeah that was like the beginning of of my visibility and everything else, whatever success i've had so yeah I mean i've had Tony robbins people.
00:40:31.050 --> 00:40:37.080 Michael Schein: contacted forbes and he's notoriously litigious Tony robbins you know.
00:40:37.710 --> 00:40:44.550 Michael Schein: And they wrote me and they're like his PR people contacted us, they said he's not a jerk because he donates to charity and this and that and I said.
00:40:45.060 --> 00:40:53.190 Michael Schein: Tell me one thing, in my article that's not factual you know yeah and there was nothing I mean everything I said was true so they dropped the thing.
00:40:53.790 --> 00:41:08.460 Michael Schein: But um now, I find that fun like in the beginning, I was scared, but when I get those kind of reaction and it's not that i'm brave you know it's that that's the best possible thing that can happen to me now being a troll is different going out and saying you're ugly you stand here.
00:41:08.520 --> 00:41:15.780 Michael Schein: yeah you know you know that's just like being insulting that's not what i'm talking i'm talking about having a strong point of view, I do it with gurus because that's my thing.
00:41:16.350 --> 00:41:24.030 Michael Schein: But a lot of people aren't comfortable with quote unquote picking fights with people and that's cool that in fact that's probably better pick a fight with an idea.
00:41:24.060 --> 00:41:40.950 Michael Schein: Like base camp, you know base camp picked a fight with the idea of in an elegant work processes, I mean it sounds boring but it's the basis of their their success, and they have like a cult following so it's just better to be against them for it's just the way human psychology responds.
00:41:41.340 --> 00:41:46.980 Graham Dobbin: here's the thing the headline Simon Seneca school of thought here is grabbing headline but the article.
00:41:46.980 --> 00:41:52.830 Graham Dobbin: itself is a boat the process as a boat about what he's doing so it's not particularly passionate.
00:41:53.370 --> 00:42:04.200 Graham Dobbin: And I think that is that and that's nice that's where it feels that there's there's a huge difference of what you do it's not personal it's it's it's this is this is your opinion, this is mine.
00:42:04.770 --> 00:42:06.000 Michael Schein: The clickbait.
00:42:06.030 --> 00:42:12.420 Michael Schein: I mean pure simple and I, you know and that's fine, but I hear I see these articles and they're more common now than they used to be where.
00:42:12.870 --> 00:42:20.790 Michael Schein: Someone will write and it's not done, these are pre articles that never would have been published in print but but they're usually done by young people.
00:42:21.420 --> 00:42:30.060 Michael Schein: And they're usually politically motivated so someone will say something publicly that doesn't align with their political views.
00:42:30.390 --> 00:42:42.540 Michael Schein: And so they'll write this article, and you can just tell it's saving with like disdain for the person don't talk about their relationships they're like the anti Elon musk articles, like the guy who's been married four times i'm better than.
00:42:42.570 --> 00:42:50.250 Michael Schein: You know and it's like I don't know if you want, but that's not what i'm talking about that that actually makes you look petty as far as i'm concerned yeah.
00:42:52.680 --> 00:42:59.490 Graham Dobbin: I actually just just something you picked up on there, and you mentioned politics, the politics in the US has been.
00:43:01.560 --> 00:43:03.930 Graham Dobbin: right in front of us right in our face.
00:43:03.930 --> 00:43:09.450 Graham Dobbin: For for a few years now probably more so than then then, then a long time before.
00:43:10.020 --> 00:43:17.310 Graham Dobbin: yeah and i'm gonna guess here that you've got views and opinions, etc, in politics, how difficult, is it to keep away.
00:43:17.670 --> 00:43:28.140 Graham Dobbin: When you, but in this kind of mindset that we're happy to challenge opinions and be potentially controversial how difficult, is it not to get involved in other areas that's that's not necessarily the business.
00:43:28.920 --> 00:43:30.360 Michael Schein: i'm not perfect, with that.
00:43:30.450 --> 00:43:31.080 Michael Schein: I mean you know.
00:43:31.200 --> 00:43:36.450 Michael Schein: I mean, there are times, where I actually think it has been useful to talk about Donald trump because he's so.
00:43:37.740 --> 00:43:39.270 Michael Schein: He typifies.
00:43:40.890 --> 00:43:42.060 Michael Schein: he's a good hype artist.
00:43:42.060 --> 00:43:42.480 Michael Schein: I.
00:43:42.570 --> 00:43:46.560 Michael Schein: Personally don't like what he uses it, for, and we can talk about that or not.
00:43:47.190 --> 00:43:58.440 Michael Schein: But yeah i'm human and I got worked up about it, like everyone else, and I found myself writing tweets I shouldn't have written just to debate with people I wouldn't recommend that you know that was just my emotion getting.
00:43:58.650 --> 00:44:00.360 Graham Dobbin: curious why shouldn't you've written them then.
00:44:00.600 --> 00:44:03.480 Graham Dobbin: If that was your opinion know we just thought why shouldn't you have written them.
00:44:03.750 --> 00:44:04.380 Michael Schein: You know.
00:44:06.330 --> 00:44:16.830 Michael Schein: I think there's a difference between talking about Donald trump as an example of hype, and if I don't believe in his politics, how you can withdraw the good parts and get rid of the bad.
00:44:17.370 --> 00:44:33.450 Michael Schein: and getting worked up into a frenzy, because some tweet insulted me or offended my sensibilities responding in paragraphs and thinking i'm helping the world and i'm not helping anything i'm just feeling like i'm helping things and i'm alienating some people.
00:44:33.690 --> 00:44:34.200 Michael Schein: Now, if my.
00:44:34.230 --> 00:44:49.200 Michael Schein: If it was actually helping further my cause great you take that risk, but I think a lot of the social media stuff ago I really got them with that it's like one mind ever been changed or one yeah on the Internet, so I just think that's.
00:44:50.340 --> 00:44:53.370 Graham Dobbin: was counterproductive time okay.
00:44:53.460 --> 00:45:07.350 Graham Dobbin: One of the one of the books that they always regularly comes out with the Dale Carnegie how to win friends and influence people i've never forget there's one of the one of the principles on the only way to win an argument is to avoid.
00:45:08.070 --> 00:45:09.690 Graham Dobbin: The rest, so you need to.
00:45:09.750 --> 00:45:12.510 Graham Dobbin: You need to avoid that but, so we can still get an opinion over.
00:45:13.050 --> 00:45:15.150 Michael Schein: If you're really trying to.
00:45:16.380 --> 00:45:19.740 Michael Schein: persuade people versus attract attention and that's all.
00:45:19.740 --> 00:45:20.880 Michael Schein: Yes, yeah.
00:45:21.540 --> 00:45:30.450 Graham Dobbin: When we come back i'm going to kind of look at in the last section just can anyone be seen as an expert, one of the things that you that you've gotten the website.
00:45:32.430 --> 00:45:38.940 Graham Dobbin: Is that you reverse engineer what the most successful celebrities do want to just dig into that a little bit.
00:45:39.540 --> 00:45:54.420 Graham Dobbin: And Okay, what does that look like how to how do How do people kind of tap into this into what you've got you're listening to the bang bang leadership we've got Michael shane here is a hype artist and also the founder and President of micro fame media will be back after.
00:46:01.500 --> 00:46:02.670 Education in.
00:48:16.560 --> 00:48:21.210 Graham Dobbin: So welcome back i'm Michael can anyone be seen as an expert.
00:48:24.180 --> 00:48:26.010 Michael Schein: I mean i'd like to reframe the question.
00:48:26.070 --> 00:48:27.600 Graham Dobbin: If that's Okay, but yeah, of course.
00:48:27.780 --> 00:48:41.850 Michael Schein: I don't you know I mean there's a difference between expertise and being a knicks celebrity and I don't think a celebrity but a niche celebrity I mean expertise is expertise, I mean you should know stuff.
00:48:41.940 --> 00:48:42.600 Michael Schein: You should.
00:48:42.630 --> 00:48:47.040 Michael Schein: Get the appropriate schooling or read a lot of books, or whatever you know.
00:48:47.520 --> 00:48:47.730 Michael Schein: yeah.
00:48:48.330 --> 00:48:54.660 Michael Schein: I don't think a doctor can just say I mean there have been doctors in history, and some of them I wrote about in the book this guy john brinkley who.
00:48:55.110 --> 00:49:02.940 Michael Schein: Basically, bought his medical degree in Italy, and he was insanely wealthy and he was considered an expert.
00:49:03.780 --> 00:49:12.450 Michael Schein: Dr to people in the rural South made millions of dollars and he was responsible for 45 deaths, he would he would cure impotence by putting.
00:49:12.990 --> 00:49:28.260 Michael Schein: gland testicles into human testicles basically and he almost became the Governor of Arkansas system sure you can be seen as an expert using things like external signifiers of prestige and various strategies but.
00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:37.860 Michael Schein: Being an expert something different, and niche celebrity though what's what's really interesting is i'm not a natural at this stuff right so so you know there, there are.
00:49:39.870 --> 00:49:42.270 Michael Schein: Some people are.
00:49:43.560 --> 00:49:45.150 Michael Schein: How do I put this delicately.
00:49:47.010 --> 00:49:48.360 Graham Dobbin: delicately in this short.
00:49:48.450 --> 00:49:50.340 Michael Schein: When I know, but you can say it is.
00:49:50.550 --> 00:49:57.780 Michael Schein: I know, but i'm trying to say it without my point being my so you know the subtitle of my book, talks about how to learn from propaganda artists cult leader.
00:49:57.840 --> 00:49:59.400 Graham Dobbin: promoters etc yeah.
00:50:00.090 --> 00:50:09.030 Michael Schein: A lot of the people I talked about are good people but unbalanced they there are a lot of bad people and that's not because these strategies of crowd psychology are bad.
00:50:09.630 --> 00:50:18.120 Michael Schein: They are what they are it's that a lot of these people have antisocial personality disorder their associate pastor narcissists are psychopaths.
00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:25.890 Michael Schein: And they've done tests on these people when they get into interpersonal interpersonal a stressful situation their heart rate doesn't go up.
00:50:26.430 --> 00:50:34.320 Michael Schein: So they don't allow emotions to get in the way they see their interactions with people like a chess game right so.
00:50:35.070 --> 00:50:46.230 Michael Schein: As a result, they're naturally better at this stuff, but you can reverse engineer this stuff because it works it's so consistently across human beings.
00:50:46.710 --> 00:50:57.750 Michael Schein: And even reapply them in an ethical way, so I reverse engineer the strategies and my whole thing was i'm not gonna I didn't leave my job to be a con artist if that's what it takes i'm not.
00:50:57.780 --> 00:51:00.480 Michael Schein: going to do that I wasn't finding meaning in my work i'm not going.
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:13.200 Michael Schein: To go do that, but what I found is that it's very reverse engineer ball, it can be applied to anything anyone can use it it with the will, the one thing you have to do and there's a whole chapter on this.
00:51:13.770 --> 00:51:24.660 Michael Schein: If you want to get anywhere near close to being able to take the emotion out of the question is self regulate you know whether that's therapy meditation exercise martial arts cutting the caffeine.
00:51:25.140 --> 00:51:33.780 Michael Schein: You have to work on yourself a little bit too, because if every time some of this stuff uncomfortable to do you know picking fights is uncomfortable.
00:51:34.500 --> 00:51:40.950 Michael Schein: Being a trickster is uncomfortable other strategies that I talked about you know, for me, can feel unusual.
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:50.880 Michael Schein: So you have to get into a place where it just sort of feels as one of the hype artists in the book say like a pebble in your shoe you know what I mean you, you feel the tension.
00:51:51.240 --> 00:52:02.550 Michael Schein: But you do it anyway, instead of letting it overwhelming overwhelming so that that's a long answer to the question yeah anyone with enough study and work and and self awareness can.
00:52:03.720 --> 00:52:13.770 Michael Schein: craft turn themselves into a niche celebrity can you become oprah no you can't but I, maybe, but you probably not you probably can't become Michael Jordan, but.
00:52:14.790 --> 00:52:21.720 Michael Schein: Fortunately, we live in the Internet era where you don't have to you just have to get well known in a very specific net.
00:52:22.590 --> 00:52:32.250 Graham Dobbin: it's really interesting you mentioned Michael Jordan coming from the UK everybody knew who Michael Jordan was and Dennis rodman but we weren't engrossed within the story and.
00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:33.900 Michael Schein: Why because you're not bad because.
00:52:33.930 --> 00:52:37.650 Graham Dobbin: yeah it wasn't so it's not such a big sport, but just what.
00:52:38.130 --> 00:52:43.530 Michael Schein: We feel about like David Beckham like we know who he is, but no one really knows absolutely no.
00:52:43.740 --> 00:52:50.730 Graham Dobbin: yeah and he's an issue because I lived in Manchester when he can enter the Manchester United team, so I saw some progress, right through.
00:52:50.850 --> 00:52:52.830 Graham Dobbin: Korea but watching the.
00:52:54.300 --> 00:52:56.310 Graham Dobbin: watching the last dance the Michael Jordan.
00:52:56.400 --> 00:52:57.000 Michael Schein: Oh yeah.
00:52:57.840 --> 00:52:59.160 Graham Dobbin: which was phenomenal.
00:52:59.190 --> 00:53:02.280 Michael Schein: document I remember, I remember what I was really into it.
00:53:03.660 --> 00:53:09.870 Graham Dobbin: i've watched this twice and not being integrated into basketball have watched it twice and being in grosse by the whole thing.
00:53:10.410 --> 00:53:11.460 Graham Dobbin: I remember when they come to the.
00:53:11.850 --> 00:53:18.120 Graham Dobbin: Final basket, I was on the edge of my seat, because I didn't know what the score was I didn't know what was going to happen during the documentary.
00:53:18.420 --> 00:53:19.830 Michael Schein: Right right yeah we all knew each.
00:53:20.970 --> 00:53:25.470 Michael Schein: Other really well made movie it's funny I remember, just as a side note and then i'll let you finish but.
00:53:25.500 --> 00:53:25.830 Graham Dobbin: Knowing.
00:53:26.310 --> 00:53:30.420 Michael Schein: I remember, I was a freshman in college when that bowls team.
00:53:32.220 --> 00:53:35.490 Michael Schein: It was unheard of like they only last eight games, you know which is.
00:53:35.550 --> 00:53:40.590 Michael Schein: yeah there's a lot of games right and I remember constantly because we were basketball fans, we would be like.
00:53:41.010 --> 00:53:51.210 Michael Schein: Oh, my God, they want again this is crazy, it was everyone, you know you don't want to like the bowls because they were everyone's rival they were the team to beat but yeah they were they were a phenomenon but anyway go on, I just know.
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:52.470 Graham Dobbin: it's it.
00:53:52.890 --> 00:54:05.040 Graham Dobbin: I think it's interesting we were talking about reverse engineering and looking at patterns and we can get clear celebrities are then we look at sports people because that's that's what you know lots of great sports stars, do you look at what others do they model, what else is.
00:54:05.040 --> 00:54:05.700 Michael Schein: happening now.
00:54:05.940 --> 00:54:14.850 Graham Dobbin: yeah and and regardless of being able to do that, being able to match the kind of the process, the psychologists have this thing about it.
00:54:15.120 --> 00:54:16.470 Michael Schein: it's funny right that's.
00:54:16.470 --> 00:54:20.250 Michael Schein: The creepiness like in basketball, especially.
00:54:20.730 --> 00:54:31.410 Michael Schein: They say basketball is a game of streets right because I mean you know soccer or football there aren't that many goals but basketball your you know, whatever between 70 and 100 whatever points a game.
00:54:31.770 --> 00:54:42.120 Michael Schein: So you'll just see people just don't shoot 10 shots in a row, and then the other dimension, why that shouldn't be there was no reason for that that's pure psychology math psychology because yeah.
00:54:42.390 --> 00:54:49.140 Graham Dobbin: Because the thing is whether it's a golf shot or or taking a penalty of football soccer or taking a shot at basketball.
00:54:49.320 --> 00:54:55.740 Graham Dobbin: yeah they've all got the skill to do it, the one thing that might stop is the attitude and the psychology.
00:54:55.740 --> 00:54:59.070 Graham Dobbin: Behind it so much really athletic but his.
00:54:59.070 --> 00:55:00.810 Michael Schein: psychology was unparalleled.
00:55:00.870 --> 00:55:01.530 Michael Schein: The way he would.
00:55:01.800 --> 00:55:04.410 Michael Schein: He would pick fights in his own mind that didn't exist.
00:55:05.070 --> 00:55:06.810 Michael Schein: Together, my self wrapped up yeah.
00:55:07.140 --> 00:55:10.440 Graham Dobbin: You know what i've watched it twice in the last six months, I could watch it again, this weekend and.
00:55:11.400 --> 00:55:11.700 Graham Dobbin: Leave it.
00:55:12.210 --> 00:55:12.630 Michael Schein: All done.
00:55:12.840 --> 00:55:17.460 Graham Dobbin: With a couple of minutes to go i'm really interested in just kind of looking at those patterns and.
00:55:17.580 --> 00:55:34.950 Graham Dobbin: I suppose what we're seeing Is anybody can do this it's about the purpose that you do it, for, if you've got if you've got if you've got the right heart then we'll get the message and i'm i'm Michael the book is called the hype handbook How can people get Ahold of you.
00:55:36.060 --> 00:55:41.940 Michael Schein: yeah i'm you know, obviously the books on Amazon, you can you know my website person.
00:55:43.020 --> 00:55:54.150 Michael Schein: Michael F shines about sc H ei n.com the best way to reach me that there's I think on hype reads.com and I send out book recommendations these kind of wacky weird.
00:55:54.480 --> 00:56:06.180 Michael Schein: unusual books that I read but it's become a Community the emails come directly from into me and I often write back with the people who get it so that's probably the best way to access me personally.
00:56:06.780 --> 00:56:12.750 Graham Dobbin: reach.com Michael I got this feeling we're going to have more conversations.
00:56:12.930 --> 00:56:13.890 Graham Dobbin: I hope so, thanks.
00:56:14.040 --> 00:56:20.130 Graham Dobbin: thanks for your honesty thanks for thanks for being up front and I know you said there's maybe not the kids but thanks for being brave.
00:56:20.610 --> 00:56:22.200 Michael Schein: Because that's that.
00:56:22.290 --> 00:56:29.160 Graham Dobbin: that's what stimulates the conversation and gets us all going, are you been listening to the mind behind leadership we've been told that Michael shane.
00:56:31.140 --> 00:56:45.900 Graham Dobbin: Talking about hype talking about the process of how we have what happens here hype reads.com subscribe now go and see it will be back next week seven o'clock Eastern time see you then good night.