Tevis Trower is the author of The Game-Changer's Guide to Radical Success. Tevis's approach is Radical - she has taught the NYPD to remain steady under pressure in mediation with neighborhood stakeholders. Hurled dry erasers over the heads of Morgan Stanley’s global wealth management leadership team to convey the importance of soldier-like steadiness & attention in navigating volatility. HBREvents trusted Tevis to lead 120 global C-Suite executives on a deep dive on developing Insight & Innovation. During furlough, she encouraged State of Michigan administrators to stand up & sing to soften edges before contract negotiations. We'll be exploring what happens when we have a Radical approach and why more organizations play safe.
Tune in for this insightful conversation at TalkRadio.nyc or watch the Facebook Livestream by clicking here.
The episode opens with host Graham Dobbin introducing the episode’s guest, Tevis Trower. Tevis begins by explaining her journey from starting at an army reserve to becoming a successful author and businesswoman. After her humble upbringing, Tevis began to acknowledge the large role that identity plays in leadership, the power to stand up no matter what our position is is an important and valuable skill. Even if someone has the most powerful title, if they don’t have the respect of the people under them, they will not find success. She continues to speak on identity’s involvement in leadership, citing her time in the army as a way that she was able to identify strong and effective leadership.
The second segment opens with Tevis continuing to discuss her upbringing and how her parents inviting diverse groups of people into their home provided her with a different perspective on life than her peers. She reveals what she believes people miss when they do not grow up surrounded by cultural diversity, stating that we receive the messages we are meant to, but what matters is what we do with them. The opportunity to take active ownership of what we are exposed to gives us the ability to expand our own perspectives and cultural intakes. Tevis begins to discuss her book, its background, and the inspiration behind it.
Tevis discusses the concept of everyone being born incredibly creative, citing kids as being naturally curious. As we grow, our willingness to create and express decreases, most likely due to voices of judgement. We must rebuild our active brain and our heart’s truth. We all have a voice of judgement that we must learn to ignore in order to free ourselves. Tevis explains the concept of radical success and, while we can complete something only for the sense of achievement, our souls must be fully connected. If we are true to who we are, the strength of our own being helps inform our own ability to fully connect. We must know that we are alive, and there is room for us to fully enjoy the ride.
The final segment opens with Tevis announcing that her book has been included in Forbes list of 12 top books for passion and leadership. She continues to speak about radical success, which are the smaller victories that come from inside of us and assists us in fully aligning with ourselves. She encourages listeners to be more alive in their success, fostering aliveness in their lifetime. She speaks on how people can identify if they are part of holding themselves back, and how they can move forward in identifying their true purpose. After people haven’t been taught to be self-aware, they begin to create problems from the top, making the social climate of an organization an important concept to monitor. Tevis reveals that it “bugs” her when she sees people with talent be told to do something, and then get punished for it. In this situation, Tevis explains that asking people in power questions about what is going on and then working to litigate the backlash are important first steps in creating room for hope in continuing.
00:00:30.450 --> 00:00:42.600 Graham Dobbin: Welcome to the mind behind leadership here live on talk radio dot nyc my name is Graham dobbin and every Thursday evening real quick to talk to diverse and interesting leaders.
00:00:42.930 --> 00:00:49.890 Graham Dobbin: about their experiences gaining and get insights on to how organizations, big and small operate motivate and draw.
00:00:50.310 --> 00:00:54.660 Graham Dobbin: Against regularly of dealing with some of the largest companies in the world.
00:00:55.050 --> 00:01:03.960 Graham Dobbin: For example, last week, so I guess, this was Steven Holgate SVP of global sales at Dale Carnegie and he was discussing is kind of what with tick tock and indeed.
00:01:04.380 --> 00:01:15.810 Graham Dobbin: And with a thought leaders like Dr Tony Alessandra and make Macedonia we're both New York Times bestselling authors we've an emmy award winners like Dr Sean different and Tyler PENA.
00:01:16.830 --> 00:01:25.710 Graham Dobbin: All of those are available on the usual podcast platforms bell also makes me really excited about this week's guest and i'm looking forward to the next hour.
00:01:25.980 --> 00:01:35.970 Graham Dobbin: Because it normally takes two or three times because she's already been dancing to the theme mission, so the same thing we've got terrace shower.
00:01:36.270 --> 00:01:49.650 Graham Dobbin: And I notice is the founder of bounce integration and calls herself get this we're going to be exploring this a leadership futurist like she's an author of the game changers guide to radical success.
00:01:50.070 --> 00:01:59.700 Graham Dobbin: And so to get a little bit of a background and 30 plus years at korn ferry IBM AOL Coca Cola ups and services own words.
00:02:00.240 --> 00:02:11.550 Graham Dobbin: And that should have the great the good the bad and the ugly in organizations i've just been a professor at nyu and an army reservist much which we need to find out where this.
00:02:11.970 --> 00:02:23.280 Graham Dobbin: i'm coming or has been working over the last few years, with Google Yahoo there's no point in case a while you know got all these names here as we would expect, but if some of the interesting stuff and more recently.
00:02:24.180 --> 00:02:31.800 Graham Dobbin: This she managed to get the state of Michigan administrators to stand up and sing to soften the edges before contract negotiations.
00:02:32.490 --> 00:02:51.090 Graham Dobbin: I really hope there's a video of this I like 60 CEOs on a leadership intensive in my in my Cambodia and Thailand interacting with civic and governmental and private sector leaders i'm also been retained for multiple years by the Omega Institute and propeller.
00:02:52.260 --> 00:03:08.130 Graham Dobbin: to lead a renowned executive retreat called success is an inside job I was going to tell you what she doesn't have to be a time but looking at that My guess is she doesn't have any i'm so we're extremely lucky to have terrorists on this evening, good evening tennis.
00:03:08.250 --> 00:03:09.630 Tevis Trower: So good to be here great.
00:03:10.920 --> 00:03:18.720 Graham Dobbin: Oh Come on, I need to know right, you are dancing already so what we'll come to that later, how do you go from being an army reserve.
00:03:19.380 --> 00:03:27.000 Graham Dobbin: To working with game changing companies, I know the books game changers gator radical success so you've written a book, so how did you go from our readers out.
00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:38.760 Graham Dobbin: To writing the book and working with some of the most cutting edge companies in the world like AOL at the time and Google and Yahoo and IBM and then getting state administrators to stand and sing.
00:03:39.600 --> 00:03:43.500 Tevis Trower: I think you'd be true to yourself every step of the way, is my only.
00:03:43.530 --> 00:03:44.370 real answer.
00:03:45.600 --> 00:03:48.600 Graham Dobbin: Well that's not going to be good at all we're going to dig in a little bit more than that.
00:03:49.830 --> 00:03:54.510 Graham Dobbin: So it gives it gives an idea but you're just about you know your journey to this point.
00:03:54.690 --> 00:04:09.540 Tevis Trower: yeah um so I came from a really humble family and no one was involved in the executive and leadership in the corporate sphere at all, it was a very humble family, but my parents were the black sheep and so that meant that they were.
00:04:10.470 --> 00:04:19.350 Tevis Trower: Extremely drawn to culture, we had every type of person through the House, be it creed, religion, you name it, we had a very.
00:04:19.770 --> 00:04:32.100 Tevis Trower: eclectic kind of social exposure growing up my parents were kind of hippies and my dad was Montessori teacher and if you've ever studied the Montessori method it's very much based on.
00:04:32.820 --> 00:04:50.610 Tevis Trower: Two things one is that the human brain is infinitely absorbent so so what you expose it to its able to absorb and use, and I think that has been a key observation, for me, both and working through the various.
00:04:51.750 --> 00:05:05.520 Tevis Trower: arenas and menus i've worked in including the army which i'll tell you about but also this idea that there's a certain collegiality assume that, like when you look at the structure of.
00:05:06.060 --> 00:05:11.640 Tevis Trower: A Montessori class there's there's an older kid and there's a middle kid and there's a younger kid.
00:05:12.180 --> 00:05:25.770 Tevis Trower: And they're grouped in three years and so you're constantly rotating through being the new person the intermediate and the knowledge holder right and so you're constantly kind of rotating through that So when I.
00:05:26.970 --> 00:05:31.110 Tevis Trower: Looked at a lot of what I observed.
00:05:32.340 --> 00:05:40.200 Tevis Trower: Including being a beauty school dropout including working for the speaker the House in Tennessee including.
00:05:40.770 --> 00:06:05.610 Tevis Trower: going to the army, because I needed money to pay for school and I started to really acknowledge what a big bro identity plays and leadership and what a big and foreman of influence our ability to stand in the strength of who we are, no matter our title, no matter our position.
00:06:07.620 --> 00:06:16.110 Tevis Trower: I really turned back to those memories of being in charge of the entire company at Fort Knox.
00:06:17.190 --> 00:06:29.970 Tevis Trower: And having to get people, where we had to be on time and having nothing other than my personal presence and i'm and Gramma toss to get people to comply.
00:06:31.080 --> 00:06:37.110 Tevis Trower: So that we would be where we had to go when get the things that we had to done done and.
00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:48.570 Tevis Trower: it's kind of interesting because, as I got into corporate America and I looked at how a lot of times it wouldn't matter the title someone had if they didn't have the respect.
00:06:49.170 --> 00:07:00.900 Tevis Trower: And if they didn't have the gravitas it was always a crapshoot if what they needed to get done would get done and so these these these lessons have really stood me well.
00:07:04.350 --> 00:07:08.790 Graham Dobbin: it's actually interesting to just be jumping right into this tab is.
00:07:09.060 --> 00:07:14.160 Graham Dobbin: One of the things you're saying about having the gravitas having kind of the respect having that.
00:07:14.430 --> 00:07:23.490 Graham Dobbin: You know, we talked about earlier something kind of charisma and all these different things that go into the pot it's not just about having a badge of some stripes yeah you were in the army.
00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:36.690 Graham Dobbin: Yes, and that was a bow, yes, but guess who could kind of talk to us what difference, do you see or am I mistaken, is it not just about in the army that you've gotten you know you've got the stripes Therefore, you are listened to.
00:07:37.080 --> 00:07:45.240 Tevis Trower: Well that's the whole thing I mean you can have the stripes and you can have authority or heidel.
00:07:45.300 --> 00:07:45.780 Graham Dobbin: But if you.
00:07:45.840 --> 00:07:50.010 Tevis Trower: don't have the respect and the support of the people underneath you.
00:07:51.060 --> 00:08:00.900 Tevis Trower: It doesn't matter what your title is, you may be able to force them to do things but but I don't know about you, but the difference between engagement and compliance is is.
00:08:03.090 --> 00:08:03.540 Tevis Trower: Complete.
00:08:05.130 --> 00:08:06.300 Graham Dobbin: yeah.
00:08:07.980 --> 00:08:12.270 Graham Dobbin: I find it quite interesting that this is something we've known for a long time.
00:08:13.200 --> 00:08:22.080 Graham Dobbin: This is the you know this is this isn't new yet yeah lots of companies that is actually new to them so it's the consciousness, which are conscious leaders have seen the you know.
00:08:22.650 --> 00:08:40.950 Graham Dobbin: you've done some work done at the University of San Diego with that, but it's not unusual, so the US army, the reason i'm asking is the last two years i've been i've run a program a short program twice over the last two years i'm on emotional intelligence yeah yeah yeah.
00:08:41.040 --> 00:08:43.380 Tevis Trower: um it's kind of interesting I.
00:08:44.460 --> 00:09:05.670 Tevis Trower: did a course with Peter saying guy who wrote the fifth discipline, years ago, probably 15 years ago and the guy next to me, was one of the corporal's at the US army war college and I was definitely the youngest person there at the time I wouldn't be no, but I think the youngest.
00:09:07.020 --> 00:09:14.280 Graham Dobbin: of seven my obviously going to for both our sakes and ages not nor questions about needs this evening across.
00:09:15.510 --> 00:09:23.670 Tevis Trower: Well, but it was amazing because here here, he was, and here we were on the tales of one of the devil.
00:09:24.150 --> 00:09:29.580 Tevis Trower: One of the desert storms and what Peter said I was talking about was level five.
00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:43.680 Tevis Trower: Leadership right was was the fifth aspect of self actualization is being core and critical to a competent leader and I turned to this guy and I said how I was in the army, how.
00:09:44.100 --> 00:10:04.860 Tevis Trower: Is the army teaching this and he said, we need to because the information is changing so quickly it's not coming from the top it's coming from the ground it can't be socialized quickly enough to respond to, so we have got to be able to cultivate people who can act on it.
00:10:05.880 --> 00:10:19.590 Tevis Trower: on their own, which is really a scary thing to say when you're talking about the US army, but it's needed and I would argue it's needed and all of our organizations can we really empower people to act on what they're saying.
00:10:20.490 --> 00:10:27.390 Graham Dobbin: i'm one of the things you mentioned everything you mentioned a couple of times was identity in leadership, what did you mean by that.
00:10:30.390 --> 00:10:31.590 Graham Dobbin: we've got our we've got.
00:10:38.760 --> 00:10:42.060 Tevis Trower: I think I think we need a campfire and.
00:10:43.560 --> 00:10:44.490 Graham Dobbin: would be the way to do it.
00:10:44.700 --> 00:10:45.420 Tevis Trower: yeah yeah.
00:10:46.350 --> 00:10:47.610 Graham Dobbin: i'm going to speak to Sam about that.
00:10:49.980 --> 00:10:50.070 Graham Dobbin: round.
00:10:50.730 --> 00:10:54.000 Tevis Trower: So, whether we look at this stuff from a perspective of.
00:10:55.230 --> 00:11:01.800 Tevis Trower: maslow's hierarchy of needs, or whether we look at it from a perspective of.
00:11:02.850 --> 00:11:09.780 Tevis Trower: How the brain works with respect to fear right the way that we keep ourselves safe is through identification.
00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:18.330 Tevis Trower: And that means what tribe, that means what's the language that means, what are the rules of success that means.
00:11:18.990 --> 00:11:28.800 Tevis Trower: How do I win right and one of the things I realized early on in my career part of it was being in the army and watching how.
00:11:29.310 --> 00:11:37.050 Tevis Trower: When the rules changed when the Cold War ended and the commission's were cut back and people who had always assumed.
00:11:37.470 --> 00:11:48.300 Tevis Trower: That they were going to be an officer, because everyone in their family had been when that was what they had built their identity on when that was ripped out from under them they weren't serious crisis.
00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:56.970 Tevis Trower: And these were overachievers and colleges were people who had checked every box and suddenly they didn't know how to self identify.
00:11:57.510 --> 00:12:08.970 Tevis Trower: Now any of us who's ever been through that kind of huge shift knows how that feels high performers more than probably anyone are fueled by a desire.
00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:27.240 Tevis Trower: To win according to the rules around us and even yes redefine them as game changers hopefully but but that that that identity, I mean, whether you want to get into the fray and say, well, is it an ego and super ego, no matter what it's, how do we belong, and how do we belong.
00:12:28.350 --> 00:12:38.910 Tevis Trower: With a position of status that confers power and safety to us, and I think that's very true for our leaders and our high performers.
00:12:39.390 --> 00:12:41.190 Graham Dobbin: You mentioned safety quite a bit there.
00:12:41.580 --> 00:12:45.870 Graham Dobbin: yeah that's a personal safety for them, are they looking at teams, or is it.
00:12:47.040 --> 00:12:55.830 Tevis Trower: I think if you're smart then you're looking at it for the organization your associate new book and you're looking at it as a whole um.
00:12:56.940 --> 00:13:05.400 Tevis Trower: What we see oftentimes is that the worldview of the leader, the ability to imagine identity, above and beyond oneself.
00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:30.090 Tevis Trower: Is oftentimes mitigated right is oftentimes mitigated by the fact that maybe they don't feel safe in their own skin they don't feel safe in their own identity and so they're unable to extend that scope of scope of interest that scope of care, beyond the borders of their own skin.
00:13:31.980 --> 00:13:39.840 Graham Dobbin: interesting because we talk about leaders, creating safety within the teams, but what we're talking about now is if they don't feel safe themselves that's not gonna happen.
00:13:40.050 --> 00:13:40.740 Exactly.
00:13:42.090 --> 00:13:48.780 Graham Dobbin: we're gonna go to break in a moment when we come back, we want to dig in about this this book.
00:13:49.260 --> 00:13:57.330 Graham Dobbin: The game changers gay to radical success and want to know that so there's going to be two things I really want to dig into that but also.
00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:07.890 Graham Dobbin: What you mentioned, I think you manage to throw a window that you came from slightly slightly unusual background upbringing and then I hear you saying that your your parents were kind of hippies.
00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:17.910 Graham Dobbin: yeah so I want to know a little bit about how that scene is that how that how that may be affects your view on things from from when you were younger.
00:14:18.270 --> 00:14:35.640 Graham Dobbin: And right through your career as it as it made a difference you're listening to the mind behind leadership life here on talk radio dot nyc we are with travis shower, who is the founder of balance, integration and we're going to be talking hippies in game changers after the break.
00:17:37.890 --> 00:17:48.360 Graham Dobbin: Welcome back to the main behind leadership we're speaking with that tibbetts trailer and we're going to be speaking a piece so talk to me tell you, you mentioned earlier that you could maybe slightly.
00:17:49.770 --> 00:17:56.520 Graham Dobbin: Different upbringing from me me, you know other people around Jews, but eclectic you had lots of.
00:17:57.120 --> 00:18:08.370 Graham Dobbin: Lots of exposure to people from different cultures, different ideas different thoughts, how did that to talk us through that what was a difference that it means to you did you see the world differently from your friends.
00:18:09.330 --> 00:18:12.600 Tevis Trower: yeah I think that what what exposure to a lot of.
00:18:13.860 --> 00:18:24.210 Tevis Trower: A variety of people from an early age really teaches you is the difference between worth and self worth right that that.
00:18:25.530 --> 00:18:41.670 Tevis Trower: When we can see excellence in a school teacher when we can see excellence and a chef right when we can see beauty in a person from a different country we when we can taste.
00:18:42.780 --> 00:18:55.470 Tevis Trower: The amazing flavors of a dish that is nothing like one our grandmother would make right when we can really partake of the world and appreciation for all that it has to offer.
00:18:56.040 --> 00:19:08.970 Tevis Trower: It allows a little opening for us to say well who am I, and what do I have to offer so when our life has not been a homogenous.
00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:21.510 Tevis Trower: Experience it kind of gives you a little bit of freedom and I think all of us are being exposed to this now that that that our proximity to one another, who are different right.
00:19:22.500 --> 00:19:37.200 Tevis Trower: it's opening the door for us to say how am I different how have I always been a unique individual that it's not limited to race or gender or age or upbringing that there's eight zillion ways.
00:19:37.980 --> 00:19:50.790 Tevis Trower: That we are unique and specific and then it informs how we contribute and how we lead and that's really what I saw growing up was that the contributions.
00:19:51.900 --> 00:19:55.770 Tevis Trower: To have a multi family camping trip happen.
00:19:57.030 --> 00:19:58.890 Tevis Trower: wouldn't always be.
00:19:59.970 --> 00:20:10.710 Tevis Trower: made possible by the person that you would assume right the person I know they do this, all the time and they know how to build a fire mobile sometimes that that that contribution would come from.
00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:22.290 Tevis Trower: The person who thought to bring the harmonica right so so I use these as kind of off the cuff examples, but I think if you look.
00:20:23.520 --> 00:20:38.310 Tevis Trower: At your own life, and I think all of us have examples throughout life that the magic of what unfolds is made by the contributions of everyone, and so I think that having grown up with.
00:20:39.450 --> 00:20:46.140 Tevis Trower: A viewpoint on that allowed me to move into corporate America and the a little less encumbered.
00:20:46.620 --> 00:21:04.470 Tevis Trower: By what might have been the expectations, I still felt all the fears and the voices of judgment in my head, but, but I did have a lot more freedom to stay, true to myself, while I was climbing the ladder and succeeding, and that made it a lot more enjoyable I have to admit.
00:21:05.040 --> 00:21:05.940 It.
00:21:07.410 --> 00:21:13.920 Graham Dobbin: we've got people listening, but this is just a secret between you and I okay um I wasn't brought up in New York.
00:21:15.180 --> 00:21:15.840 Graham Dobbin: genuinely.
00:21:19.050 --> 00:21:30.600 Graham Dobbin: surprised, it was people um you know what one of the big draws about the city was the diversity, it was just I knew that you couldn't come in and live in this city with a growing.
00:21:31.260 --> 00:21:42.960 Graham Dobbin: yeah yeah and it is something that happens, which now leads me to think i'm hearing you saying that i'm saying yet that's exactly what i've experienced come from Europe.
00:21:43.860 --> 00:21:51.480 Graham Dobbin: very isolated upbringing of kind of very natural viewpoint, nothing wrong with that boop boop boop brought over.
00:21:52.260 --> 00:22:07.410 Graham Dobbin: What do you think we miss when we don't have that when we don't have the you know the exposure to the that that that cultural diversity, the and then realize that there are people who think differently from us, and then, what do you think we miss.
00:22:09.900 --> 00:22:17.940 Tevis Trower: The conviction that we are get exactly the messages that we need along the way, the question is, what are we going to do with them.
00:22:18.690 --> 00:22:36.480 Tevis Trower: And that's more a statement of faith than science right, I think that that for some of us because i've spent a lot of times in small towns in the southeast of our country of my country, the US i'm.
00:22:38.010 --> 00:22:49.050 Tevis Trower: In fairly de facto segregated environments and I think that that that the question becomes, how do we seek out.
00:22:50.250 --> 00:23:02.160 Tevis Trower: The differences right, how do we actually task ourselves with seeking out people who are different people who think differently, etc, because if you think about your brain.
00:23:02.580 --> 00:23:21.900 Tevis Trower: it's just a bunch of patterns right it's normal patterns that are coded by mile and that that then gets recorded and recorded and recorded every time a stimulus strikes at a certain way, and I think that that that the opportunity for us to take active ownership of.
00:23:23.490 --> 00:23:32.130 Tevis Trower: The care and feeding of the human brain i'm going to put it that way i've never pointed that way before but for us to take active.
00:23:32.910 --> 00:23:43.410 Tevis Trower: Ownership of that for the care and feeding of the human brain really entails will wow my my hamster trail is pretty limited.
00:23:43.830 --> 00:23:53.700 Tevis Trower: My routines do expose me to people who look like me my my conversations are with the same people each week at the club or this or that or.
00:23:54.060 --> 00:24:04.290 Tevis Trower: The PTA right etc I, and I think that the more that we can expose ourselves to other conversations with people who are nothing like us.
00:24:04.620 --> 00:24:19.800 Tevis Trower: The more broad our worldview becomes obviously but also our creativity, because what's embedded in every system of thinking is an approximation of reality, the map is never the territory.
00:24:20.760 --> 00:24:27.540 Tevis Trower: And what a system of thinking is it is it as a map, so the question is how do we get outside of our own.
00:24:27.870 --> 00:24:41.280 Tevis Trower: limitations of having bought into whatever map with bought into so that we can be bigger and broader and more curious and therefore more creative unable to respond, and I think that's incumbent upon all of us.
00:24:42.060 --> 00:24:54.030 Graham Dobbin: Do you see i'm just wondering have this kind of any common theme or tricks or i'm coming the language use when you're working with companies, you see really successful leaders.
00:24:55.980 --> 00:25:01.140 Graham Dobbin: This is gonna be really leading question um do you see that they've had that kind of exposure.
00:25:01.350 --> 00:25:13.830 Graham Dobbin: they've got that openness about them where they're looking they're looking at creativity they're looking at different cultures are looking to that they diversity and get as much information, then, does that make us more successful, we would, in larger organizations.
00:25:14.190 --> 00:25:17.400 Tevis Trower: Well i've seen both i've seen people who do have that.
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:17.940 Graham Dobbin: and
00:25:18.270 --> 00:25:30.360 Tevis Trower: You bring on, and I see people who have not had that, but they have recognized that for them to really be equivalent to.
00:25:31.290 --> 00:25:41.850 Tevis Trower: The challenges in front of them they've got to grow, and I think that's a really rare thing honestly and it's sad because, as much as all of us are reading our.
00:25:42.450 --> 00:25:59.340 Tevis Trower: linkedin and our HP our stories and our heads are nodding about you know the compassionate leader, the innovative leader, the collaborative leader that we're all nodding, because all of us think that if we hire a chief cultural officer they're just gonna make it go away yeah.
00:26:00.780 --> 00:26:01.590 Graham Dobbin: It doesn't doesn't.
00:26:01.890 --> 00:26:03.660 Graham Dobbin: Know doesn't make.
00:26:03.900 --> 00:26:05.340 Tevis Trower: make up for the problems.
00:26:05.340 --> 00:26:06.690 Tevis Trower: With the leaders.
00:26:08.760 --> 00:26:12.000 Graham Dobbin: And what we probably need is people to write books about it.
00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:15.210 Graham Dobbin: They can change the game yeah.
00:26:19.080 --> 00:26:24.000 Graham Dobbin: Talk to talk to spread a book, who is behind the thought process.
00:26:24.690 --> 00:26:34.380 Tevis Trower: Okay, so so i'm hippie kid he freaks everyone out by joining the army right who then freaks everyone out even more by going to business school.
00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:43.500 Tevis Trower: I learned to speak three languages or work all over the world, I work as a headhunter so I really get to know that even the highest titled people.
00:26:44.280 --> 00:26:52.320 Tevis Trower: have profound insecurities about identity, about how viable their careers are about who they are in the world.
00:26:52.950 --> 00:27:02.130 Tevis Trower: And i'm young and i'm watching all of this right, and I started to realize it somehow the relationship between self and work.
00:27:02.850 --> 00:27:13.230 Tevis Trower: is broken and it kind of bugs me because, if I look outside and I see a blade of grass, the blade of grass is not fighting being a blade of grass right.
00:27:13.830 --> 00:27:25.080 Tevis Trower: Sugar does not fly things sweet the wind is not fight blowing So why is it that we as human beings fight contribution and function, and I think well it's kind of weird because.
00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:38.160 Tevis Trower: we'll go to work we born out of put ourselves together right, we have the right language, we know how to respond in a meeting got the resume we fight for these jobs and then pretty soon we start bitching about them.
00:27:40.020 --> 00:27:50.190 Tevis Trower: Well, we just thought to be there and i'm looking around and i'm like this is funny because, as far as I can tell, there are no bullets flying overhead and no one's dying in a ditch so, so why are we so unhappy.
00:27:50.760 --> 00:28:06.210 Tevis Trower: And i'm working in pretty impressive environments i'm a Time Warner at the time and I realized that when I get on the elevator the C suite if someone from the C suite gets on with me he or she will stare at the wall.
00:28:07.230 --> 00:28:19.320 Tevis Trower: or they'll look at their phone, but when the cleaning lady gets on the elevator she looks me in the eyes and in broken English because her first language was Polish she would say how was your day and I thought.
00:28:20.730 --> 00:28:32.100 Tevis Trower: What is it this so this kind of my first my first inkling well there were a lot of inklings I mean obviously being in the army, he gave me a lot of inklings but by the time i'm consulting.
00:28:33.360 --> 00:28:36.870 Tevis Trower: I make the leap because i'm really interested, how do we.
00:28:38.850 --> 00:28:50.760 Tevis Trower: reintegrate self into success right, how do we create a success that is whole and then has room for us to be a real human being and not just a two dimensional set of boxes that we've tacked.
00:28:51.270 --> 00:29:00.600 Tevis Trower: On thinking it's going to somehow add up to happiness and i'm consulting on culture and several large corporations and they asked me to put together.
00:29:01.230 --> 00:29:06.900 Tevis Trower: A resiliency program for high performers and I do it and i'm OK OK and they're like, but we want you to coach them.
00:29:07.470 --> 00:29:18.090 Tevis Trower: And I said oh I don't really want to do that, you know there's so many people who can do that and there, no, no, no, we want you, we want you, and so I sit down and I served to coach these folks and what I realized.
00:29:19.020 --> 00:29:33.360 Tevis Trower: Is I can ask them what about their day left them unhappy or left them sad or upset them and they can just rattle things off and if I asked them what made them happy.
00:29:35.730 --> 00:29:45.300 Tevis Trower: A lot of times there would be silenced what gave them joy, there would be silence and I thought well isn't this interesting we are really intimate.
00:29:46.140 --> 00:29:57.450 Tevis Trower: With what displeases us, but we are strangers to what gives us joy and that planted the seed, because I became really curious about.
00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:06.180 Tevis Trower: there's this extrinsic the extrinsic trappings of success right and we all know what they are in for it varies from person to person.
00:30:06.810 --> 00:30:27.360 Tevis Trower: But I thought will at some point we lose that internal authority right we lose our sovereignty in the face of the world's should we lose that sovereignty to say, well, I actually exist and i've got all these skills to navigate these environments.
00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:33.060 Tevis Trower: And i'm not going to lose them if i'm in touch with myself, in fact.
00:30:33.900 --> 00:30:42.660 Tevis Trower: If I know who I am i'm going to navigate them even more powerfully and i'm probably going to be a lot happier and i'm probably going to be a better leader so.
00:30:43.140 --> 00:30:56.460 Tevis Trower: That That was really how the seeds of the book started and conversation upon conversation upon conversation just reinforce that we got to look at a success that is radical.
00:30:57.330 --> 00:31:10.980 Graham Dobbin: going to go we're gonna take a quick break when we come back, we want to carry on this conversation i'm just gonna dig it dig into that happiness and also some of you mentioned DEMO but the voices of judgment and I kind of wonder where that comes in yeah yeah I do listen to you.
00:31:12.330 --> 00:31:25.710 Graham Dobbin: But what that means to you, but also i'm wondering if there's something in here that this stopping that happiness as well within somebody C suites and also what box, you were on the mind behind leadership we'll be right back after these.
00:34:18.570 --> 00:34:30.180 Graham Dobbin: You know what I didn't start dancing or services dancing to the to the theme tune, and I think service, the voices of judgment, but in my head for all people think when they see me doing this.
00:34:31.290 --> 00:34:32.940 Graham Dobbin: We talked to a device a judgment.
00:34:33.450 --> 00:34:38.880 Graham Dobbin: yeah earlier and I kind of got an inkling of what we meant by that no we're also talking about.
00:34:39.330 --> 00:34:48.870 Graham Dobbin: When we're talking to leaders and it's not just leaders as as many people what you know what's wrong what we're not happy with most people can give us a list yeah.
00:34:49.380 --> 00:35:02.970 Graham Dobbin: What did the what do they want to do, what are the heck Why would something make them happy for have we been happy with is a much more difficult question is that a link here with voice into judgment i'm i'm i'm way off the track.
00:35:03.030 --> 00:35:03.450 yeah.
00:35:04.740 --> 00:35:16.500 Tevis Trower: um So if you think about connection itself as being something that actually fuels, freedom of expression right So those are your creativity, etc.
00:35:16.830 --> 00:35:24.510 Tevis Trower: Studies show that that we are all born incredibly creative right we're born experimenting with things will.
00:35:24.810 --> 00:35:32.880 Tevis Trower: pick up a phone and we'll bang on it and use it as a hammer, and I know that sounds really silly because we're also sophisticated but but.
00:35:33.420 --> 00:35:45.840 Tevis Trower: But kids kids naturally are curious and experiment and we very quickly by the age of five, the drop off of that willingness to be curious to experiment to try.
00:35:46.260 --> 00:35:57.600 Tevis Trower: is huge and by the time you're 18 it's a small percentage that still show this freedom to express and all of that is due to the voice of judgment now sometimes it's called the.
00:35:58.200 --> 00:36:07.380 Tevis Trower: The the critic sometimes it's called the gremlin but it's basically the the aggregation of voices from a very young age.
00:36:08.100 --> 00:36:15.270 Tevis Trower: That says that's not good it's constantly saying good bad good bad good bad good bad and we hear it from our.
00:36:15.780 --> 00:36:25.020 Tevis Trower: Family, we hear it in the media, according to how we want to filter what we see we hear it from our teachers, we hear from our social groups.
00:36:25.410 --> 00:36:36.330 Tevis Trower: And we're constantly scanning for how do I stay safe and not only that, but then we start to participate in judging others right and and really.
00:36:36.780 --> 00:36:52.650 Tevis Trower: imposing upon other people what our filters have become and it sounds like well but doesn't that keep us from from dumping hot water off of a stove yeah it does keep us from dumping water oh so.
00:36:53.430 --> 00:37:04.620 Tevis Trower: The question is, when does it become that we're bad or that we are good or that we are valid or that our happiness is valid or that our ideas are worth expressing.
00:37:05.220 --> 00:37:25.350 Tevis Trower: Right and the the the correlation between cow toweling to those expectations and the voice of judgment and the ability to step outside of that and say Oh, I hear you but i'm going to share this idea anyway or Oh, I hear you that I never.
00:37:26.760 --> 00:37:27.510 Tevis Trower: Stop.
00:37:29.070 --> 00:37:44.520 Tevis Trower: At a park on the way home because I always drive straight home that there is something in me that tells me that this might be a pleasant thing to do these tiny audacious absurd actions are what really start to repay.
00:37:45.750 --> 00:37:58.290 Tevis Trower: A conduit a relationship between the action in brain right, the one that participates in society and our hearts truth and that's really what what there has to be more room for.
00:38:00.120 --> 00:38:08.130 Graham Dobbin: um you mentioned earlier, so I do see i'm seeing this a lot this evening i've been appointed adjustment in relation to yourself.
00:38:08.490 --> 00:38:09.030 Tevis Trower: Oh yeah.
00:38:09.090 --> 00:38:16.080 Graham Dobbin: So um how did you are, how do you overcome those what kind of tips that you got for us.
00:38:16.170 --> 00:38:22.170 Tevis Trower: Well, I personally don't think they ever go away right, I think, once you create a brain pattern it's there.
00:38:22.290 --> 00:38:22.590 Graham Dobbin: Right.
00:38:23.130 --> 00:38:31.380 Tevis Trower: The question is, can you name it as a brain pattern, and can you simply make a choice, then, am I going to listen to this.
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:47.910 Tevis Trower: Or am I going to do something else so Graham you brought up a great example are people gonna think I look silly if we go back on air and they see me on camera and i'm getting down to my little right like maybe I don't look at it so funny.
00:38:49.680 --> 00:39:02.700 Tevis Trower: moby asked me on a date once and I said i'm having a party at my house, you should come and he said I can come and I said why and he goes, because there will be dancing and if there are pictures, I will look silly.
00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:09.480 Tevis Trower: People look silly and still pictures dancing and I thought you're one of the most powerful recording artists on the planet and.
00:39:09.990 --> 00:39:25.380 Tevis Trower: This is what i'm saying right, we all have a voice of judgment that is so afraid of how we're going to look or what other people are gonna think about us, but what happens if you hear that voice of judgment and you dance anyway.
00:39:26.550 --> 00:39:30.060 Tevis Trower: Truly i'm asking them what happens Graham.
00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:43.560 Graham Dobbin: um it's really interesting everything you do something where you overcome for me that voice JASMINE so it was a great experience a really amazing experience.
00:39:43.620 --> 00:39:44.220 it's free.
00:39:45.660 --> 00:39:52.620 Tevis Trower: it's completely free every time I reach for my guitar the voice of judgment and my head says oh you can't really play.
00:39:54.030 --> 00:39:54.360 Tevis Trower: Right right.
00:39:55.470 --> 00:40:00.210 Tevis Trower: Right, but then you hit a chord are you hitting up and your heart goes.
00:40:01.380 --> 00:40:02.280 Tevis Trower: feels good.
00:40:03.810 --> 00:40:03.990 Graham Dobbin: and
00:40:05.220 --> 00:40:06.030 Graham Dobbin: I asked the question.
00:40:12.990 --> 00:40:14.400 Graham Dobbin: That you just named drop more be.
00:40:15.180 --> 00:40:15.360 That.
00:40:16.710 --> 00:40:17.100 Graham Dobbin: Did you.
00:40:17.910 --> 00:40:19.050 Tevis Trower: Not the point but yeah.
00:40:19.110 --> 00:40:19.560 yeah.
00:40:20.610 --> 00:40:23.610 Graham Dobbin: One of my favorite of gigs and the UK seriously.
00:40:24.180 --> 00:40:25.560 Graham Dobbin: though that was one of those.
00:40:25.740 --> 00:40:31.620 Graham Dobbin: That I did a genuine we didn't want to go, I came and got dragged along our festival to see this, and it was one that was spectacular.
00:40:31.620 --> 00:40:33.960 Graham Dobbin: Experiences I ever had.
00:40:34.260 --> 00:40:35.700 Tevis Trower: No expectations.
00:40:35.790 --> 00:40:36.300 Graham Dobbin: Are yes.
00:40:36.900 --> 00:40:40.680 Tevis Trower: Absolutely something with no expectations it doesn't matter if it's.
00:40:41.640 --> 00:40:56.220 Graham Dobbin: spectacular see more than one occasion um Okay, so now we're talking about game changing here, we know how we can get into that mindset um, what is your definition of radical success there.
00:40:56.670 --> 00:41:09.060 Tevis Trower: So, so I started to think about all these we each have this secret formula that that we think if I just achieved this if I just achieved that if I just do that or get this or get that.
00:41:09.900 --> 00:41:22.830 Tevis Trower: i'll finally be successful and all of us know is insatiable, it is an insatiable beast right because it's a desire to know I finally arrived and we never arrived.
00:41:23.910 --> 00:41:37.470 Tevis Trower: Because what we're longing for can't be satisfied that way radical success in my mind is where you shift and you say Okay, I still may play the game of achievement.
00:41:39.120 --> 00:41:43.290 Tevis Trower: But what's actually going to make me feel as if i'm flourishing.
00:41:44.310 --> 00:41:46.800 Tevis Trower: is coming from my truth, the word flourish.
00:41:48.030 --> 00:42:03.900 Tevis Trower: means holding fast to that which you are being true to that which you are, and you think about a route right a route of a plan it holds into whether it's craggy soil or sand or whatever you're from Scotland, so you know craggy soil.
00:42:06.990 --> 00:42:25.170 Tevis Trower: holds fast right and the more we come from our route because the word radical comes from rattus right the Latin that is rooted, the more rooted, we are, and who we are, then, even if we're playing the game of achievement we're true to who we are.
00:42:26.250 --> 00:42:42.450 Tevis Trower: And that that strength, the the true North knowledge of our own being of our gravitas of our values, helps inform our ability to navigate the game of achievement.
00:42:42.810 --> 00:42:49.980 Tevis Trower: And so radical success is where we shift and we go Okay, I know, all those things exist and, yes, I love my country home right.
00:42:50.340 --> 00:42:59.820 Tevis Trower: or I love my tesla or I love my best or that or I love that i'm the CEO of blah blah blah, but in the middle of all that you actually feel alive.
00:43:00.240 --> 00:43:12.420 Tevis Trower: You know that you exist above and beyond your title, above and beyond going through the hamster trail of your days, you know that you are vibrantly fully alive and there is room for you to experience and enjoy that.
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:19.170 Graham Dobbin: i'm like to go for our final break like is this is just flying through.
00:43:19.500 --> 00:43:29.940 Graham Dobbin: we've got a few things want to come back to that going to when when it's not moving that we know or even if you can give us an indication What was it like for you and you know you knew that you tipped over into that point.
00:43:30.510 --> 00:43:43.530 Graham Dobbin: And then you've got a couple of other things because I know that there's a there is a definite announcement, with the book as well, so you can tell us about what just happened with the book I know it's exciting and I do want to find out what box you.
00:43:44.310 --> 00:43:51.690 Graham Dobbin: Will transition for bugs you because you said you know, a bunch you earlier there's a couple of things with with leaders who didn't know what they wanted.
00:43:52.830 --> 00:44:05.040 Graham Dobbin: While box tennis it was in line behind leadership life here on talk radio dot nyc my name is Graham dobbin we're speaking with travis childless evening and we'll be right back after these.
00:46:26.310 --> 00:46:27.450 Graham Dobbin: i'm still not dancing.
00:46:27.720 --> 00:46:33.090 Graham Dobbin: I still got too much i've got too many things to do in the background, here I welcome my next.
00:46:34.530 --> 00:46:39.660 Graham Dobbin: internship will speak of established child this evening um tell us about.
00:46:40.980 --> 00:46:49.740 Graham Dobbin: What a pop back in house that feeling when we get to radical success, but a game changers a gay to radical success what's the news about the book.
00:46:51.300 --> 00:46:52.320 Graham Dobbin: it's a world exclusive.
00:46:52.410 --> 00:46:54.300 Graham Dobbin: i'm going to assume as a world exclusive.
00:46:55.470 --> 00:46:58.080 Graham Dobbin: And even if it's not claiming it so i'm.
00:46:58.380 --> 00:47:16.530 Tevis Trower: so excited i'm, so I do not have a publicist i'm not doing any of that i'm just having a book and I got an email out of the blue, on Friday, saying my book had been included in forbes list of 12 top books for compassionate leadership and.
00:47:18.030 --> 00:47:18.840 Graham Dobbin: ice.
00:47:18.990 --> 00:47:22.050 Tevis Trower: Right up there with renee Brown and all those guys so.
00:47:23.610 --> 00:47:28.590 Graham Dobbin: yeah did not give you a kind of feeling of radical success are we talking about.
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:35.970 Tevis Trower: You know, it gives me I thought about this and it made me happy, I was thankful, I felt.
00:47:37.470 --> 00:47:47.490 Tevis Trower: gratitude right all of that, but um but actually radical success is more like those tiny things that you were talking about right.
00:47:48.030 --> 00:48:02.820 Tevis Trower: Each time that you listen to that to that nudge inside of you that says i'll go ahead and say what you really think or or go ahead and dance, even though you want to pretend you're too busy right or go ahead and.
00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:18.240 Tevis Trower: and turn down that job because you know it's not a fit right, like all those tiny things that we do to align with ourselves that makes me feel radically successful because then limb defining who I am.
00:48:18.840 --> 00:48:28.560 Tevis Trower: According to what feels right for me and according to what makes me feel more alive, I mean isn't that the point isn't to live a verb.
00:48:29.820 --> 00:48:40.320 Tevis Trower: So shouldn't our living be in support of the sense of liveliness inside of us and i'm going to say any of this is it is mutually exclusive.
00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:58.680 Tevis Trower: of being successful i'm just saying why not be a little bit more alive and your success and not through chemicals or through whatever right but, but how do we make fostering a lightness part of what this whole game is in this lifetime.
00:49:00.540 --> 00:49:07.230 Graham Dobbin: You know i've worked with with with some of these large companies that you're talking about a different, and you know, in a slightly different setting.
00:49:08.310 --> 00:49:18.030 Graham Dobbin: How do you bring this into corporate America or corporations across the world, how do we get them thinking about and i'm going to use a term that I don't mean derogatory tend to put in a frame.
00:49:18.390 --> 00:49:32.640 Graham Dobbin: Of what's regularly regarded as fluffy is in Canada there's stuff that it's really difficult to measure and we all know, intellectually that is so important, but because you can't measure it gets left.
00:49:33.090 --> 00:49:35.610 Tevis Trower: Well, the funny thing is, I think that.
00:49:36.720 --> 00:49:39.540 Tevis Trower: A lot of the research organizations like.
00:49:40.590 --> 00:49:50.550 Tevis Trower: There was a trust barometer done by edelman two years ago that specifically focused on the C suite and organizations and it showed that we want leaders who.
00:49:50.940 --> 00:49:59.340 Tevis Trower: know who they are, are transparent, are unscripted speak from their truth have failed right like etc.
00:49:59.910 --> 00:50:10.830 Tevis Trower: And so I do think there is research out there, I think that the the pressure and the fault lines revealed by the pandemic and.
00:50:11.550 --> 00:50:20.340 Tevis Trower: social crises coming to the surface, have really driven all of us to acknowledge that a lot of this common sense heads nodding.
00:50:20.820 --> 00:50:28.410 Tevis Trower: That we did when we hear about this stuff is actually more mission critical than perhaps anything else, and when I make fun of.
00:50:28.740 --> 00:50:35.790 Tevis Trower: People reading or eckhart tolle a or reading their Harvard Business Review, because all the cover stories are about the stuff.
00:50:36.240 --> 00:50:55.380 Tevis Trower: i'm actually saying great but let's go beyond reading right like reading the article and say oh yeah I believe in a human word culture is not going far enough, the head nodding is only the beginning at that point you've got to actually ask yourself how am I, Part of the problem.
00:50:57.450 --> 00:51:09.090 Tevis Trower: And what am I going to endeavor into to try and find my blind spots, because I guarantee you if you have accomplished a lot, you also have a lot of blind spots, because we all did.
00:51:12.750 --> 00:51:27.600 Graham Dobbin: You know what are the things when you look at um creativity, innovation models and you look at what what companies use I always find it fascinating the vicar is such a large part, but it was brought up by the US army.
00:51:27.930 --> 00:51:36.060 Graham Dobbin: So yeah so you've got something there, but when you take it into into companies, again, is one of those those acronyms that's thrown around.
00:51:36.420 --> 00:51:44.370 Graham Dobbin: But when you actually just take that as a frame in book of rare, but it does do is it talks about volatility uncertainty complexity and ambiguity and.
00:51:44.670 --> 00:51:53.910 Graham Dobbin: In you know it was it was brought out about our own world politics effectively, but when we take it into a business world and really consider these it's almost like.
00:51:54.270 --> 00:52:00.300 Graham Dobbin: really nice practical framework to get people, even though it's all that mean that's been around for what 30 odd years.
00:52:00.810 --> 00:52:10.890 Graham Dobbin: But there's still is still not not not framework to get people thinking about it and it feels like organizations grab on to that because they've got something to go with.
00:52:11.250 --> 00:52:24.960 Tevis Trower: Well, they so one of the footholds well there's a couple of footholds that have opened up these conversations for my company to come in and one is when.
00:52:25.590 --> 00:52:43.080 Tevis Trower: there's an express pain point culturally that is costing the company money fussing at people, causing it productivity and generally, we can usually identify that the fish rots from the top, we all know that right so so creating.
00:52:44.250 --> 00:52:56.490 Tevis Trower: New programs and offerings are only as impactful as change at the top, as and that doesn't always mean firing people a lot of times more people should be fired than our but.
00:53:01.200 --> 00:53:09.990 Tevis Trower: there's a lot of room for killing and for re skilling because a lot of times people simply haven't been taught how to be this level of self aware.
00:53:10.380 --> 00:53:19.800 Tevis Trower: Right so there's a lot of opportunity that's one The other thing is if they're getting their clock clean creatively or in terms of the ability to attract.
00:53:20.340 --> 00:53:33.360 Tevis Trower: talent right a lot of times will bring us in for that pain points on the mental health and well being of the organization and by that I don't mean how many people are filing claims, I mean overall.
00:53:33.390 --> 00:53:41.100 Tevis Trower: What is climate of the organization and those are really the things, but a lot of times it comes under the moniker of.
00:53:42.090 --> 00:54:01.200 Tevis Trower: Leadership alignment we all say we believe in this, but what are we doing right the ability to innovate and foster risk taking and collaboration okay let's go for that, but how do you do it right, and third, the resiliency question because you cannot be at your best if everyone's a corpse.
00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:15.150 Graham Dobbin: yeah so what we're having these conversations and I know we don't have too much time left, unfortunately seems to really fluid in this evening i'm box you what bugs me.
00:54:17.250 --> 00:54:18.660 Tevis Trower: Do you know i'm.
00:54:20.370 --> 00:54:31.290 Tevis Trower: I think what bugs me is when I see people with lots of talent and lots of ability be told to do something and then punished for it.
00:54:32.760 --> 00:54:42.600 Tevis Trower: So when when when an organization is doing the doublespeak of saying we care about this, and we want you to help us change it.
00:54:42.990 --> 00:54:54.630 Tevis Trower: And they said, people at very high high levels, about making shifts happen, and then they do that snap back of the rubberband I go up not that.
00:54:55.080 --> 00:55:09.450 Tevis Trower: And I see the heartbreak and that's what bothers me just as a compassionate professional to professional I see the the loss opportunity and I see the the.
00:55:10.140 --> 00:55:25.320 Tevis Trower: The loss of trust and the loss of faith by the employees, because employees always can smell blood in the water, like employees can smell it if they're safe or not, and that that bugs me when they get a little hope because I feel things are starting to change and then why.
00:55:26.670 --> 00:55:27.150 don't.
00:55:28.380 --> 00:55:30.420 Graham Dobbin: You almost see what's about to happen.
00:55:30.810 --> 00:55:35.340 Tevis Trower: Oh, always always yeah i've got really good spidey sense.
00:55:36.810 --> 00:55:49.050 Graham Dobbin: um can you give it a go to we don't know what to do, instead of two seconds, what do you do when you see that, and you, because my guess is from the little I know but you'd have, as you feel that responsibility, what do you do.
00:55:49.410 --> 00:56:00.030 Tevis Trower: yeah well um I think the first thing that you do is you start to ask some really smart questions to the to the people involved about what's really going on.
00:56:00.570 --> 00:56:13.020 Tevis Trower: And then you try to mitigate the impact the negative impact, so that, so that even if there is a swing back of the pendulum around openness creativity team building collaboration taking risk whatever.
00:56:14.250 --> 00:56:24.270 Tevis Trower: That that that it doesn't go quite as far back as it might have so so there's there's there's room for hope to continue right any work for it.
00:56:24.690 --> 00:56:35.460 Graham Dobbin: Tell us you've been an absolute style this evening, thank you great dancer and author, the game changers gade to radical success be named in one of the top top books.
00:56:35.850 --> 00:56:44.760 Graham Dobbin: Of by forbes for conscious leadership, congratulations on that Thank you and I think we're gonna have to another conversation.
00:56:45.120 --> 00:56:50.220 Graham Dobbin: Looking forward, when you confirm the date that movie is going to be on the show Thank you to some live events as well.
00:56:50.640 --> 00:57:02.010 Graham Dobbin: And for faultless and guidance and producing in the background, we will be back with you again next Thursday evening at seven o'clock for the mind behind leadership have a great week good night.