This week, on The Conscious Consultant Hour, Sam welcomes two amazing Scientists and Deep Thinkers, Paul King and Rowshanak Hashemiyoon.
Paul King hosts a conversation series and podcast on the Clubhouse mobile platform on the topic of Neuroscience, AI, and Consciousness. This conversation series brings together researchers in the fields of neuroscience, artificial intelligence, and also consciousness research to discuss theories of consciousness and how the brain works. He was a researcher for a few years at UC Berkeley's theoretical neuroscience lab and is Quora's top writer on neuroscience where he answers questions about how the brain works.
Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon is a behavioral neuroscientist and the founder of Access to the Path. As a highly trained scientific researcher, she combines the power of modern science with emotional and spiritual intelligence to generate compelling and innovative strategies that help people and businesses become more purposeful, effective, and prosperous.
Her mission is to promote the ethical growth and success of businesses and help individuals elevate to the greatest version of themselves
This will be an amazing conversation all about what consciousness is, where might it come from, and why is it so important in the development of the universe!
Sam opens the show reading a passage from Everyday Awakenings about the difficulties we face when we receive criticism from others, especially when we are instead expecting to hear words of encouragement or validation. If we learn to self-validate our efforts, the sting of criticism won’t hurt as much. What kind of recognition can you give yourself? Go out and seek those who will compliment you rather than criticize. Stop seeking validation from those who can’t or won’t give it. If we avoid these people we can avoid the path that leads towards discouragement.Everyday Awakenings can be purchased at everydayawakenings.com or Sam introduces this week’s guests, Dr. Paul King and Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon. Dr. King and Dr. Hashemiyoon both discuss how they became interested in neuroscience and neuro consciousness at a young age. Both recall early computer programs such as ELIZA that tricked users into thinking they were communicating with humans, when in fact they were communicating with the program. Dr. Hashemiyoon became fascinated by two concepts: 1. Your brain processes everything that we perceive as reality; 2. There’s a black box that occurs between the brain and the mind. After the break Sam will ask both guests questions pertaining to the relationship between intelligence and consciousness.
After the break Sam asks if the brain and the mind are the same. Dr. King confirms they are not, which brings us to the topic of consciousness. Sam asks Dr. Hashemiyoon what is the accepted definition of consciousness and does the definition cover it. Dr. Hashemiyoon answers that we have not agreed on a true definition of consciousness - some people consider it to be the mind, others consider it to be the soul. Others think it is the “pure self.” We may understand it better by knowing the two different types of consciousness -phenomenological consciousness (who we are) and intentional consciousness(being aware). Dr. King adds that consciousness is defined in neuroscience as the difference between being awake and being asleep. The emerging science shows there are varying gradations of consciousness, and that humans have a higher level compared with other living beings. Recognition of consciousness seems to be a key indicator of possession of it, with an example in the animal kingdom being the octopus. Dr. King disagrees saying there are differing accepted definitions at the moment, which makes one true definition difficult. Sam asks what is the relationship between intelligence and consciousness. Dr. King argues that they are largely separate. An example is AI that can beat humans at chess but is not conscious. What sets humans apart is our ability to travel to our past and future rather than always being in the present moment, which could be part of phenomenological consciousness, however it’s challenging to confirm this based on current definitions.
Coming back to the show, Sam asks if there is a benefit in looking to spiritual traditions and what they say about consciousness? Dr. King says science wants things it can measure, but spiritual traditions commonly separate experience according to various states of being and spiritual awareness. Sam then asks about so-called Non-ordinary states of consciousness - is there any utility there? Dr. Hashemiyoon says it’s already hard enough to measure consciousness as previously discussed, so studying non-ordinary states just adds another qualitative layer. The known study of and consciousness goes back to the days of Plato and Socrates. Sam asks Dr. Hashemiyoon whether the brain is a generator or receiver of consciousness. Dr. Hashemiyoon answers it can be both. She thinks of it as an intersection between art and science, whereas science brings intractable things into a space where it can be described and measured, and art takes whatever is within the self and puts it out into a space where it can be articulated based on our own perceptions. Sam asks if we are actually creating an artificial intelligence that can lead to an artificial consciousness, or is there still a difference between what’s being created by circuitry as opposed to biology? Dr. King believes we are going to get to artificial consciousness eventually, however he cites a potential future dilemma of “zombie consciousness” versus human consciousness. He then mentions the Turing test as a way to determine what counts as consciousness. Dr. Hashemiyoon agrees that we will be able to create artificial consciousness as an emergent property of the artificial intelligence system. She harkens back to the previous part of the discussion regarding how are we defining what qualifies as consciousness. Sam mentions TV shows and movies that ponder the question of artificial consciousness and whether these beings will supercede or even replace humans. Dr. King adds this is the question of Singularity, the point at which human and artificial intelligence combine permanently. Dr. Hashemiyoon mentions the egoic nature of questioning whether artificial consciousness will supercede human consciousness, as consciousness is supposedly separate from ego. Responses to Facebook Live questions will come after the break.
Sam returns to pose questions to the guests. First question: Are extra-sensory capabilities generated by the brain or are they something we feel because we’re sensitive to them? Dr. Hashemiyoon says since the five senses are processed by the brain, the extra-sensory perceptions are being received, not generated. At this moment though we can’t say we know for sure since the study of the brain is still relatively new and is constantly evolving. For example, the discovery of mirror neurons was not anticipated and changed. Dr. King adds the answer is speculative at this point since science cannot replicate extra-sensory perception in a lab setting. Next question: Can something be conscious if it doesn’t have a soul heart? Dr. King answers that the emotional component seems important, however people with Aspergers for example are still conscious, even though they may lack some of the emotional depth of others. Science shows us how neurons generate and react to different emotional states, so perhaps the brain is the vessel that carries the soul. Sam mentions there are many sophisticated programs going into areas such as advertising and asks, what are the implications for humanity today? Dr. King answers that everything we’re seeing online is being presented by an algorithm, which is being decided by AI. The ads are being decided by what the computer thinks you’re most likely to click on. AI is deciding what we see in the digital world. Maybe it’s good because it’s showing us what we want to see, or maybe it’s bad because it’s showing us what others what we want to see. Sam asks should we be worried about this? Dr. Hashemiyoon argues we should be very worried due to flaws in numerous systems such as facial recognition software that are employed by companies and law enforcement. Confirmation bias is also a problem, as AI is only going to go off of previous algorithmic decisions. Sam asks Dr. King what can we do to be more aware and more conscious of these programs? Dr. King answers that we should recognize that content is being selected for us, and to exercise more choice. Turn off notifications. Exercise control over what you are seeing as opposed to what others want you to see. Dr. Hashemiyoon’s website is AccessToThePath.com where listeners can learn more about her and email her. Her Clubhouse name and Twitter handles are both accesstothepath. Dr. King’s website is pking.org and his Clubhouse handle is paulkingsf.
00:00:26.910 --> 00:00:27.120 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Good.
00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:29.430 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: afternoon my.
00:00:29.490 --> 00:00:41.280 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Conscious co creators, welcome to another edition of the conscious consultant our awakening humanity, I am very, very pleased that you're all here today.
00:00:41.730 --> 00:00:49.860 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: I have two wonderful amazing guests, that I really want to get to today but, of course, first we have a section for my book.
00:00:50.220 --> 00:00:58.770 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: This one is actually a very, very personal section, so I want to get to this right away, and then i'm going to introduce my guests, for you and this section is called.
00:00:59.400 --> 00:01:07.500 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: If we recognize our progress we don't need another's praise this is this goes deep for me.
00:01:08.460 --> 00:01:17.820 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: that's nice, but you can do better how often do we hear words that don't really acknowledge us the person who thinks they are being supportive.
00:01:18.240 --> 00:01:24.600 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: They think they are helping us to do better, yet that lack of true recognition only brings us down.
00:01:25.440 --> 00:01:45.240 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: It is not so uncommon that we feel we've done something good either at home at work or for some organization, we feel good about what we've accomplished, we feel we have improved and reached a higher level of achievement and in our joy and excitement, we asked for someone else's opinion.
00:01:46.860 --> 00:01:50.340 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: But when they give it we wish they had it.
00:01:52.950 --> 00:01:58.590 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: For as soon as the words leave their lips, we know we are in for disappointment.
00:02:00.300 --> 00:02:15.420 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: We can feel the criticism coming with the first syllable you can do better, of course, we can and we will really all we wanted was for them to say good job and mean it.
00:02:16.740 --> 00:02:29.940 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: We all feel a need for validation from someone else at some point we all crave some words of encouragement, but all too often, we are met with a cold uncaring comment.
00:02:30.630 --> 00:02:42.690 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: That insensitive comment bites hard and when we remember that sting it helps us to think about what we say to others, how do they feel when we criticize them.
00:02:43.470 --> 00:02:53.070 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: They are no different than us, and we can all do better at showing our support and encouragement, we can all be kinder and gentler to other people.
00:02:53.940 --> 00:03:10.860 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Most of all, we can be kinder and gentler to ourselves if the world around us does not recognize our achievements we can recognize them ourselves, we can go out and celebrate by ourselves or with someone else who is supportive and caring.
00:03:11.670 --> 00:03:21.180 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: We do not have to seek recognition from someone who is unwilling or unable to give it, we can find another way to feel good about ourselves.
00:03:21.990 --> 00:03:30.750 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Looking for recognition externally is a trap, because often the validation of effort and intention, we seek simply does not come.
00:03:31.620 --> 00:03:42.810 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: If we can learn to self validate our efforts and then, then the lack of recognition from others, does not sting as much the charge around it is the lesson.
00:03:43.590 --> 00:03:52.710 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: And sometimes it is just about choice, perhaps the person we are looking for recognition from is just not someone who can give it.
00:03:53.310 --> 00:04:04.140 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Perhaps they never received it themselves so they do not know how to give it so let's look elsewhere let's find someone who is capable of giving it.
00:04:04.860 --> 00:04:18.900 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: let's ask someone who we know actually want to encourage us sometimes the best choice we can make is to just keep quiet and smile to ourselves and sometimes it is just about asking a different person.
00:04:20.010 --> 00:04:27.960 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Who in you, your life, can you count on to celebrate with you, what kind of self recognition, can you give yourself.
00:04:29.070 --> 00:04:29.670 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: So.
00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:33.810 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: This section of the book, I wrote.
00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:38.880 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: A number of years ago and it came after.
00:04:40.050 --> 00:04:48.570 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: When I was i've been studying with with a mentor for a couple of years had been really working hard.
00:04:49.620 --> 00:04:54.510 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: To to follow what they say to improve, to be more aware of my stuff.
00:04:55.530 --> 00:05:11.700 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: And it was like, no matter what I did he would always find the one little thing that I didn't do right or the one little thing that could have been better and and and criticize me on that.
00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:27.150 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: and always point out well you know you could have done this, or you could have done that, and yeah absolutely was he right about it could i've been a little more on top of things could I have done a little bit differently sure absolutely no question about it.
00:05:28.680 --> 00:05:38.370 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: But is that what I needed to hear in the moment after working so hard to you know take care and do the things I was supposed to happen.
00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:44.070 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: It just felt very cold and very unsupportive to me.
00:05:45.090 --> 00:05:50.190 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Now look i'm not saying that like if you don't do something right that it shouldn't be pointed out to you.
00:05:51.960 --> 00:06:04.890 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: But, in contrast to that you know I often talk about the evolutionary business Council and how the group of people is such a fields, such an important part of of my soul family I call them.
00:06:06.210 --> 00:06:24.360 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: And, and when we practice as part of their speak to their their facilitators training program and as part of it part of it is giving feedback and the way they would always get feedback is first say what someone did well then mentioned what could have been improved and then.
00:06:25.380 --> 00:06:36.930 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: You know, again compliment them and it's a way of like letting people know like hey yeah you did pretty good at this but yeah there's maybe one little tweak or something more, you could have done.
00:06:37.470 --> 00:06:50.520 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: And when you receive things that way it's so much easier to hear it here, and you feel better about yourself so then you're actually more motivated to actually do better next time.
00:06:52.290 --> 00:06:53.160 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: And so.
00:06:54.450 --> 00:07:02.970 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: It was, I was really sitting with this feeling of like you know how come this person didn't acknowledge me how come they didn't see all the good things that I did.
00:07:04.020 --> 00:07:06.210 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: um and then I realized, you know what.
00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:21.240 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: I need to stop seeking the validation from this person, because it wasn't just me I other people tues the same way with everybody and it's like Why am I seeking validation from somebody who obviously can't give it or won't give it.
00:07:23.100 --> 00:07:45.360 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: And so it really kind of I sat with it for a while and it became something that I again I don't i'm not always very conscious of it, I don't always remember it, but I try to keep it in mind that you know what seeking validation praise and recognition from people who.
00:07:46.470 --> 00:07:57.570 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Are from other people and then from people who aren't necessarily ones who are likely to give it it just is Is this something that never serves us.
00:07:58.320 --> 00:08:15.870 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: And it's something that the more aware and the more conscious, we are of it, that we can avoid it and we can not go down that path that just leads to disappointment and frustration and and doesn't really empower us to do better so.
00:08:17.130 --> 00:08:22.740 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: yeah I had to include this in the book, because it was just too important.
00:08:24.690 --> 00:08:31.440 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: For me personally, so I felt like yeah Okay, we can do without this anyway so that's.
00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:44.910 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: This section again that section is called if we recognize our progress we don't need another sprays and that's from my book, everyday awakening which, if anyone would like to pick it up, you can get it at everyday awakening book.com.
00:08:45.930 --> 00:08:55.230 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Alright, so I I know i'm kind of like rushing through that that that topic kind of deserve a little bit more time to it, but I just have.
00:08:56.460 --> 00:09:05.610 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: A couple of amazing wonderful guests, that I really want to introduce you, and it is my pleasure to welcome to the conscious consultant our Paul king and.
00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:18.930 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon and Paul King hosts a conversation series and a podcast on clubhouse on the topic of neuroscience Ai and consciousness, which is what we're going to talk about today.
00:09:19.410 --> 00:09:29.880 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: This conversation series brings together researchers in the field of neuroscience artificial intelligence and also consciousness research to discuss theories of consciousness and how the brain works.
00:09:30.180 --> 00:09:46.050 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: He was a researcher, for a number of years at uc berkeley's theoretical neuroscience lab and is, I always never know how to pronounce this Quora's top writer on neuroscience when he answers questions about how the brain works and.
00:09:47.160 --> 00:09:53.190 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon who's one who introduced me to Paul is a behavioral neuroscientist and the founder of Access to the Path.
00:09:53.580 --> 00:09:58.530 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: As a highly trained scientific researcher she combines the power of modern science.
00:09:58.860 --> 00:10:12.660 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: With emotional and spiritual intelligence to generate compelling and innovative strategies that help people and businesses become more purposeful effective and prosperous, welcome to the conscious consultant our Paul and Dr. Rowshanak.
00:10:13.410 --> 00:10:15.630 Paul King: yeah Thank you Sam looking forward our conversation.
00:10:16.500 --> 00:10:30.150 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Yes, i'm i'm very thrilled to have you both here and and and I know, Dr. Rowshanak you're over in Germany Paul's in California, this is going to be a very international call it the number of time zones that that we're going to cover.
00:10:32.190 --> 00:10:36.360 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: So I always like to start off with just got a couple of minutes before the first break.
00:10:37.470 --> 00:10:53.520 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: i'd like to know, like to give a little context to things so i'll start off with you, Paul and i'm just curious What was it that really got you interested in these topics of neuroscience Ai consciousness, you know these kind of very deep fields.
00:10:54.300 --> 00:11:06.840 Paul King: Well i'd say it started for me in junior high school when we read a story about a computer that you could have a conversation with and I thought that's actually how computers work, I thought that was really intriguing I later found out computers were a lot more mundane and that.
00:11:07.800 --> 00:11:08.490 Paul King: In high school.
00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:14.190 Paul King: And then in high school, I came across this book Godel Escher bach by Douglas hofstetter.
00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:17.160 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Oh yeah yes, a lot of people.
00:11:17.580 --> 00:11:21.000 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Yes, Godel Escher Bach yes, I remember that's I was a thick book.
00:11:21.660 --> 00:11:29.970 Paul King: It was a thick book and it's not really clear what the book was about, and yet it really opened up my thinking about what is consciousness, it really got me interested in this idea of consciousness.
00:11:31.590 --> 00:11:40.950 Paul King: And then in college, I took some Ai classes and realize that at that time this artificial intelligence bill had no idea how to make no smart computer.
00:11:41.820 --> 00:11:52.890 Paul King: or consciousness, I had no idea there and that create an interest in neuroscience it's like okay if we don't know how to build such a thing right now, we should at least figure out how the only working system that can do this works.
00:11:53.160 --> 00:11:53.910 Paul King: And that's the brain.
00:11:54.330 --> 00:11:54.810 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: yeah and.
00:11:55.020 --> 00:11:59.190 Paul King: There I really got interested in neuroscience and eventually went to this Berkeley lab.
00:11:59.970 --> 00:12:09.420 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: gotchya gotchya yeah I my degree my college undergraduate degrees in computer science and I hung around with a bunch of hackers my first year of college and.
00:12:09.900 --> 00:12:19.740 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: And, and I remember hearing about the turing test right about you know whether computer could fool you that that you were talking to a human being, not a computer and I thought it's so fascinating.
00:12:20.760 --> 00:12:21.030 Paul King: Right.
00:12:22.410 --> 00:12:23.670 Paul King: And one of the very early.
00:12:23.730 --> 00:12:33.030 Paul King: computer programs was called eliza and it was basically a trick, but it would pull you into thinking that the computer actually was understood you it pretended to be a psychotherapist, of all things.
00:12:34.590 --> 00:12:42.510 Paul King: And it's trick is that every now and then it would take a word, you would use a few sentences ago and working into a sentence and it left you with the feeling like oh it's really listening.
00:12:42.990 --> 00:12:43.170 yeah.
00:12:45.330 --> 00:12:53.340 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Absolutely absolutely and Dr roshan X what got you interested in neuroscience, of all things.
00:12:54.300 --> 00:12:56.760 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: i've been interested in neuroscience and nice I was a girl.
00:12:58.020 --> 00:13:06.720 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: So thank you so much for having me on the show i'm so excited to be here when I was a little girl, I was about four years old, I learned about atoms.
00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:10.260 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: And I thought oh my gosh he's the smallest.
00:13:10.350 --> 00:13:19.200 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: basic, fundamental particles that create the university they create the fabric of the universe, and then, then I found out you could split them.
00:13:21.270 --> 00:13:31.260 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: into the fabric of the universe amen so if where's all they want to be a nuclear physicist, and then, as time went on, I was very interested in.
00:13:32.130 --> 00:13:42.360 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: philosophy and I was very spiritual even as a child and I eventually started to learn that everything goes through your brain.
00:13:42.990 --> 00:13:52.500 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: All of it so two things really got me interested number one that is concept of reality, despite the atoms in the fundamental particles that we know about now.
00:13:53.100 --> 00:14:11.430 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: really still your brain is what's processing everything that's like a final last bit that makes reality reality for you so i'm very interested in the brain and then I you know we know about black boxes in biology right.
00:14:12.690 --> 00:14:22.500 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: black box that occurs between the brain and the mind and I thought I gotta figure this out, so I became very interested in a young age, I started studying.
00:14:23.190 --> 00:14:29.070 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: psychology around the age of 12 I graduated with a bachelor's in neuroscience and then went on to get a.
00:14:29.970 --> 00:14:47.460 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: PhD and physiology my physics and work as a computational neuroscience for some years, I did social neuroscience so referring to what Paul was saying we did some work at the Center for complex systems with brain computer interface, so we did human to human.
00:14:48.510 --> 00:14:56.040 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: experiments and then we did human to machine, where the person thought that they were working with another human, but it was a machine.
00:14:57.420 --> 00:15:03.900 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: interesting to see how we anthropromophize machinea and thought and gave it intention, and gave it motivation.
00:15:04.560 --> 00:15:10.830 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: And so that was really interesting and then I moved on to work in neuro psychiatric disorders and Neuro-pathology.
00:15:11.310 --> 00:15:17.910 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: So, finally I ended up founding the brain and behavior laboratory at the Department of functions are attractive neurosurgery.
00:15:18.780 --> 00:15:29.340 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Here in Germany and the work that I was doing was in deep brain stimulation with these neuropsychiatric patients with parkinson's essential tremor obsessive compulsive disorder.
00:15:30.510 --> 00:15:34.230 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Depression addiction and of course tourette's.
00:15:35.610 --> 00:15:46.800 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: kind of my history, and then I wanted to move out of all this amazing information that could serve people that's why I went into science, I thought it was, and I still do I think it's a noble profession.
00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:47.670 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: And it's here.
00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:55.110 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: So that I went on to extend beyond the scientific academic community and access to the path.
00:15:55.500 --> 00:16:12.900 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Beautiful beautiful okay wonderful i'm so excited to have you both on the show today we're gonna I want to get into some some really important things, but we it's time for us to take our first commercial break I do see William loyal listeners William it's an eye on the Facebook live.
00:16:14.100 --> 00:16:19.950 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Make sure you guys like like keep typing in, and let me know when you have questions and stuff because we got a couple of real experts here.
00:16:20.370 --> 00:16:28.230 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: So when we come back, I want to let's just start off some basic like define some terms that maybe we think we know what they mean but they don't.
00:16:28.680 --> 00:16:33.480 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: We may not be quite as clear about them like what is mine what is consciousness what.
00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:40.740 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Is the mind the brain things like that and we'll just kind of lay the foundation and then we'll go much deeper so everybody, please stay tuned.
00:16:40.950 --> 00:16:55.350 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: you're listening to the conscious consultant our awakening humanity, we do this every Thursday 12 noon to 1pm Eastern time right here on talk radio dot nyc and all over Facebook with our Facebook live, and we will be right back after these messages.
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00:17:33.990 --> 00:17:43.440 www.TalkRadio.NYC: Sam leibowitz your conscious consultant and on my show the conscious consultant our awakening humanity, we will touch upon all these topics and more.
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00:19:11.220 --> 00:19:18.810 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Welcome back to the conscious consultant our awakening humanity i'm glad everyone got the memo about wearing dark colors today black it looks like.
00:19:22.740 --> 00:19:23.070 Paul King: mine.
00:19:27.600 --> 00:19:29.610 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: I see I see perfectly.
00:19:30.630 --> 00:19:37.650 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Alright, so you know, a doctor Rowshanak mentioned something before about like the mind and conscience of the mind in the brain.
00:19:38.820 --> 00:19:43.470 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Now the mind is not necessarily the same thing as the brain, is it Paul.
00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:48.960 Paul King: Well, I think most of us would say no, if you look at someone in a coma you'd say they've got a brain, but no mind.
00:19:49.620 --> 00:19:57.180 Paul King: Right, so the mind is something that the brain is doing, but it's not always doing it, and maybe it's not doing it when we're asleep in dreamless asleep.
00:19:58.590 --> 00:20:02.670 Paul King: And that actually takes us to perhaps the question of what is consciousness, you know.
00:20:07.380 --> 00:20:07.980 Paul King: they're watching those.
00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:10.620 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: So.
00:20:11.070 --> 00:20:24.780 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Dr Rowshanak what is consciousness, then what what is let's maybe let's ask it this way, what would you say is the generally accepted definition of consciousness and is that does that really cover it.
00:20:26.250 --> 00:20:34.920 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: So consciousness is a loaded term, and it is the hard problem of science of neuroscience because we can't.
00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:55.170 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Read on a definition for it right so everybody has their own definition for it, some people consider consciousness, to be the mind some people consider consciousness, to be the soul, it runs the gamut across this this range of of definitions.
00:20:56.550 --> 00:21:06.510 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: There is this thought that it is sort of the pure self something outside the ego or the mind or the embodied self right.
00:21:08.190 --> 00:21:14.220 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: in science, we may think of it as an emergent property of the brain, which is a complex system.
00:21:15.330 --> 00:21:31.020 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: So, to define consciousness, you might want to think of it in terms of the different types of consciousness right so there's this phenomenalogical consciousness, which is describing.
00:21:32.310 --> 00:21:35.700 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: The experience of what we are.
00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:41.460 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Like what it means to be me or you or human.
00:21:41.760 --> 00:21:42.060 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Right.
00:21:42.120 --> 00:21:54.450 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: And there's intentional consciousness, which is being aware at all sort of as a simplified general to have the possible breakdowns that we could give to consciousness.
00:21:55.140 --> 00:22:05.880 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: And and with respect to the brain and the mind I always thought it was very interesting because you would say to someone i'm going to give you a piece of my mind, but you would never say to them i'm going to give you a piece of my brain.
00:22:07.260 --> 00:22:07.800 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: wrong.
00:22:08.940 --> 00:22:15.510 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: yeah definitely that I want to keep all my brain cells whatever's left I don't know how many are left but I don't want to keep what I have.
00:22:15.810 --> 00:22:16.890 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Right um.
00:22:17.490 --> 00:22:19.020 Paul King: Something I might add, if I can.
00:22:19.260 --> 00:22:28.710 Paul King: Yes, for building on what Rowshanak said is there is a generally agreed on definition of consciousness that's used in neuroscience and also in medicine.
00:22:29.070 --> 00:22:32.010 Paul King: Which is the difference between greenville asleep and being awake.
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:40.050 Paul King: You know you say Oh, that person was knocked unconscious he sort of means something by that you know you interact with them and they're not aware and.
00:22:40.620 --> 00:22:47.160 Paul King: Someone is emerging from general anesthesia you know doctor is going to come around and see if they can interact see if they know where they are if they're oriented.
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:58.320 Paul King: And so that's the definition that is used in neuroscience and also some what the definition is used in philosophy of mind this question of you know, the mind body problem that gets talked about a lot.
00:22:58.770 --> 00:23:04.170 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Right and i've heard recently that but some scientists are starting to recognize that.
00:23:04.650 --> 00:23:16.830 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: There is human consciousness and then there are other kinds of consciousness, for instance, dolphins, that that there was a study done and where they said, like dolphins have a consciousness it's just a non human consciousness.
00:23:17.580 --> 00:23:20.730 Paul King: yeah the emerging view seems to be that there's gradations of consciousness.
00:23:21.450 --> 00:23:35.280 Paul King: and humans might have a more advanced form of consciousness, but you know people feel like their dog is conscious that sort of you can interact with it, it sort of seems to understand you there's an emotional connection octopuses are actually believed to be conscious by some researchers.
00:23:35.610 --> 00:23:41.580 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: yeah I don't know if you've seen the the documentary on netflix my octopus teacher but it's.
00:23:41.850 --> 00:23:43.080 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: very popular and it's.
00:23:43.080 --> 00:23:52.380 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: very, very interesting to see this gentleman's interaction with this octopus and how it developed over time and one of the things I found most fascinating was.
00:23:53.250 --> 00:24:03.300 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Like when he filmed the octopus when it didn't know he was around, and it was like dancing almost and there was like what is it doing you know why is it doing that.
00:24:04.350 --> 00:24:06.000 Paul King: it's passing the time playing.
00:24:06.510 --> 00:24:07.200 Paul King: Right perhaps.
00:24:08.250 --> 00:24:09.840 Paul King: But it does make us wonder oh.
00:24:10.650 --> 00:24:15.390 Paul King: yeah makes us wonder what is it you know what do we noticed when something is conscious what makes us think the octopus is conscious.
00:24:15.570 --> 00:24:26.250 Paul King: Really sense that there's there there that it seems there's recognition and recognitions he was a big part of our projection of consciousness onto other beings, you know we know our we're conscious, how do we know about anyone else.
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:27.750 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Right right.
00:24:28.020 --> 00:24:36.450 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: That speaks to that attentional definition of consciousness that awareness of versus a phenomenalogical and I would just say that.
00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:46.260 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: I disagree with you, Paul is neuro scientists I don't know that we have a definite I mean there's a big debate about what what is consciousness.
00:24:47.100 --> 00:24:57.270 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: In fact there's a competition about it medically we have that's one place that consciousness is well defined right so when you're meditating conscious or unconscious that's easy.
00:24:58.500 --> 00:25:11.520 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: But with respect to do we really have a definition of consciousness we're still arguing exactly what it is, and I would say that there's also a competition that's going on right now between two of the salient theories of consciousness.
00:25:12.660 --> 00:25:19.470 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: With a $5 million grant that's supporting it and and they're they're pretty differing.
00:25:20.100 --> 00:25:37.050 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: approaches to consciousness, but again, the problem is the definition when you can't when you can't agree on a definition, how can you measure it, how can you produce it, how can you give it a quality, do you see them saying, so I would disagree with you there all.
00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:40.230 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Right some disagreement are ready, all right we're gonna.
00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:42.360 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Just as part of.
00:25:43.110 --> 00:25:56.910 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: This great show and clubhouse and he's had multiple guests Come on, with very interesting discussions and explanations and debates it's a it's a fantastic, show I think you have it available on your site, or something right oh.
00:25:57.810 --> 00:26:01.680 Paul King: yeah there's a recording of that exchange, it was great we had the.
00:26:04.110 --> 00:26:12.030 Paul King: editor in chief of the journal or science of consciousness was there, asking questions and the presenter was a neuroscience researcher from Estonia.
00:26:12.510 --> 00:26:19.470 Paul King: Who has found with the general mechanism of consciousness and certain types of neurons and how they how they did the neurons communicate with you.
00:26:19.980 --> 00:26:30.780 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: guys Okay, I want to ask a question now and kind of move in a certain direction and that is what is the relationship between intelligence and consciousness is there any all.
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:42.720 Paul King: Well, I it's actually a great question because artificial intelligence is about the creation of systems that are who would say intelligent, you know they can beat the best chess player in the world beat the best coke player with.
00:26:43.980 --> 00:26:44.070 Paul King: say.
00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:46.650 Paul King: Maybe they actually are separate.
00:26:47.160 --> 00:27:02.820 Paul King: And, and they are not too serious, but now i'm in a little bit intelligent baby, but not like you know it's not going to pass a test in school so yeah that you see different I think we would probably feel that for a human being, have to be conscious first before you can build on intelligence.
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:16.890 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: right but there's a lot of and and I guess Dr ocean at this would be a question feel like there were many animals that have a certain level of intelligence, but we don't necessarily consider them self aware, do we.
00:27:17.790 --> 00:27:26.340 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Well, I think the big question is and what sets us apart as humans is, we have the ability to look into the future, in the past.
00:27:26.910 --> 00:27:36.000 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: which we think animals don't and that's a consciousness, that we have that's, that is, that is specific to us.
00:27:36.750 --> 00:27:50.520 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: And so you can have different levels of intelligence, but does that speak to consciousness that's I think not, because, first of all, Paul said but also you have neuro divergent people right.
00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:58.350 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: There may be varying levels of intelligence, there may be newer divergence there's still all conscious right.
00:27:59.010 --> 00:28:08.280 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: This ability to look into the future, in the past to time travel, as it were, I think that's something that is specific to us so far as we know.
00:28:08.580 --> 00:28:18.450 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: humans, and so we that's part of that, for the phenomenal logical consciousness of you know what it's like to be me how I feel how I can project.
00:28:18.900 --> 00:28:32.550 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: You know that it's it's this qualitative thing that it's very hard for science because science likes to or actually does attempt to extract all that's qualitative and out of the.
00:28:33.570 --> 00:28:42.990 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: out of reach into a realm of tractable right, how do you do that with consciousness, so this is this is where the the challenge would be.
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:49.590 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Right, you know, we need to go to another break but it's kind of like what you says also kind of reminds me of.
00:28:50.640 --> 00:29:04.980 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Just how things have developed over the centuries, were in in many hundreds if not thousands of years ago sort of science and spirituality and religion which kind of like all and magic was all sort of one.
00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:14.310 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: A philosophical endeavor and now it's kind of split out and we have science sort of separate from spirituality separate from religion, separate from.
00:29:14.580 --> 00:29:26.220 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: From the sort of extra sensory things which in the past, were always lumped together and i'm curious maybe we'll get into a little bit more about you know, should they maybe come back together a little bit.
00:29:27.300 --> 00:29:35.550 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: To help to understand this sort of phenomena of consciousness, a little bit, but, and I do also want to talk Paul mentioned about artificial intelligence.
00:29:35.790 --> 00:29:42.540 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: I do want to get into that and sort of the implications, especially in today's world and what's been happening over the last.
00:29:43.170 --> 00:29:52.050 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: You know, not just couple of years, but over the last 510 years with technology and how that's developed but we'll get into that after we come back from this break.
00:29:52.320 --> 00:30:01.860 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: you're listening to the conscious consultant our awakening humanity we're talking this hour with Paul king and Dr roshan akashi moon, and we will be right back after this.
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00:32:40.770 --> 00:32:48.390 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Welcome back to the conscious consultant our awakening humanity we're talking today all about consciousness neuroscience artificial intelligence.
00:32:48.990 --> 00:32:59.040 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: So just real real quickly before we get into the artificial intelligence, is there any benefit any usefulness in sort of looking at.
00:32:59.820 --> 00:33:15.390 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: sort of the spiritual traditions and what they have to say around consciousness that can help us in this this world where even scientists aren't agreeing upon what it really is Paul any any thoughts on that.
00:33:16.590 --> 00:33:22.770 Paul King: yeah that's that's typical to say, I mean the you know, the world of science once things that can measure.
00:33:23.280 --> 00:33:33.000 Paul King: So it's going to focus on things that can measure, but, of course, you know spiritual traditions, you know made of native American meditation I mean that's intensely studied, because that.
00:33:33.810 --> 00:33:39.000 Paul King: You know, brings people to different conscious states, we could ask you know what does that mean to be in a different country state but.
00:33:39.330 --> 00:33:50.100 Paul King: altered states of consciousness is something that's actually studied and maybe in these sort of higher more aware states, you know someone say we're connecting to something about the universe, but what would that mean scientifically it's hard to know.
00:33:50.490 --> 00:33:56.370 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: My right yeah i've heard the term use now non ordinary states of consciousness.
00:33:57.210 --> 00:34:11.010 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: A doctor Rowshanak is there any utility and looking at non ordinary states of consciousness, or is it just something that's to outside of what we can study in the lab that there's not necessarily much utility there.
00:34:11.730 --> 00:34:19.140 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Well we're very excited explained how hard it was to try to measure consciousness, insofar as defining it anyway.
00:34:19.530 --> 00:34:30.660 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: As that's the hard problem of neuroscience, so I think adding this other extra super qualitative later layer would be really hard right so um.
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:50.040 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: I think that's just adding another layer of difficulty to that, but you know, insofar as the spiritual and the science go, yes, they have been up until fairly recently as far as history goes one in the same and, as I said earlier on, with respect to defining.
00:34:51.480 --> 00:35:02.070 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: consciousness, you have various religions, you have I mean it started with Plato amd descarte, I guess, probably before that, even where they started talking about a duality.
00:35:02.490 --> 00:35:10.350 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: right back, which was stuff that was material and that which was consciousness.
00:35:10.770 --> 00:35:26.040 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: And so began this whole concept of the soul and the spirit that we might look at or trying to study separately but we're already having some issues and we're working on it, trying to study consciousness, for example, as you know, a matter of.
00:35:27.990 --> 00:35:35.610 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: salient so the two strong contenders for theories of consciousness are.
00:35:37.260 --> 00:35:55.500 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Julia to nominees integrated information theory which has this idea of integrating information which is represented by fi and the higher the fly is the higher the consciousness and there's another very different theory, which is the global neuronal.
00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:05.010 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: workspace there yeah and, and that is more about salience the more salient something becomes, the more conscious of it.
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:19.080 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: You are so and that and so now imagine taking something like that, and then adding this layer of completely qualitative Where are you how are you going to even you can't define it, how are you going to nail it down.
00:36:19.500 --> 00:36:25.380 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: and try to measure it or we produce it, so you see that that wouldn't work so.
00:36:26.610 --> 00:36:38.220 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: I also hear there's this underlying assumption also when it comes to neurology and consciousness, that the brain is a generator of consciousness yet i've heard certain.
00:36:38.850 --> 00:36:48.390 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: People philosophical spiritual people say, well, no actually the brain is a receiver of consciousness, not a generator of consciousness what's your feeling.
00:36:48.720 --> 00:36:50.850 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Like that data syndrome right if you.
00:36:50.850 --> 00:37:03.660 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Could I think it could be both you know we're you know, on the one hand, it is an emergent property of the branding that just sort of really simplifies it it again comes back to what is your definition and then you can.
00:37:04.620 --> 00:37:15.390 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: If it's coming from the slums from the functional architecture of the brain and then becomes an emergent property of a complex system which the brain is in an open system, then yes.
00:37:16.140 --> 00:37:29.040 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: You can start to look at it as something that is being expressed out, but you can also look at it, as in terms of being received what is up to you, I see something.
00:37:29.730 --> 00:37:30.330 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: No go ahead.
00:37:30.660 --> 00:37:38.970 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: I thought I heard something so when you think you know, in terms of understanding the nature of things and and what is.
00:37:40.650 --> 00:37:52.860 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: What is out there, that is outside of the the embodied existence of us, then, how do we connect with that in this way, you need a receiver right.
00:37:53.370 --> 00:38:10.500 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: It has to be some way to connect with it, so if you see consciousness as all that is outside or you can see it as a non duality I like to think of in terms of an intersection of art and science so science, as I said, is is trying to take all that is out of reach and bring it into a tractable.
00:38:11.850 --> 00:38:19.860 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: place it's something where you can sort of bring the divine into being goodness right and it's a description.
00:38:20.190 --> 00:38:28.590 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: and art art as an expression right so whatever is within you you try to bring out you communicate and communication is communion.
00:38:28.980 --> 00:38:38.910 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: So we're talking about that that intersection that communion or that reception, how are you going to do that, so you could be as you do, an art.
00:38:39.150 --> 00:38:51.630 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: You know, whatever is within me i'm trying to take out and express to you, but i'm also influenced by the outside world in so when you talk about goodell eschenbach sort of like the extra hands during each other right.
00:38:53.190 --> 00:38:55.170 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: So that intersection really.
00:38:56.190 --> 00:39:11.310 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: is, I think, where we could define one type of consciousness, you know between the two that's where divinity is that's where humanity is sort of cradled and intersects with that greater than awesomeness.
00:39:12.600 --> 00:39:13.650 Paul King: So we ended up.
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:16.050 Paul King: Oh yeah just to add to that.
00:39:16.110 --> 00:39:28.500 Paul King: yeah I think there is a basic debate out there about his consciousness something that's fundamental to the universe, that the brain is tapping into somehow or is it something that's just a side effect of neural activity, something that the brain makes possible.
00:39:29.310 --> 00:39:49.590 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Great so let's just possibly for the moment let's just say this brain this this network of neurons it's very complex and comes together generate some kind of intelligence consciousness, then as our computers now are getting more and more sophisticated more and more.
00:39:50.790 --> 00:39:53.790 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: dense in terms of the circuitry and everything.
00:39:54.960 --> 00:40:10.560 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Are we actually creating an artificial intelligence that can lead to an artificial consciousness, or is there still sort of a qualitative difference between what's being generated by circuitry as opposed to biology.
00:40:11.580 --> 00:40:16.980 Paul King: yeah I think that artificial consciousness is going to be possible, I think we're going to get there, but.
00:40:17.820 --> 00:40:26.400 Paul King: There is this debate and it's called the hard problem and philosophy of mind what if you had some machine or maybe a sort of another copy of a person.
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:34.140 Paul King: That had all the same, mechanical things going on, and this person appeared to be exactly like a familiar person.
00:40:35.010 --> 00:40:50.250 Paul King: But it was nothing but procedural program steps you know would that other entity be conscious, or do we say that it's zombie consciousness what philosophers like to say so, would it computer be zombie consciousness, but it does appear to be conscious but it's not actually conscious.
00:40:51.390 --> 00:40:59.100 Paul King: I think there's another view you know, maybe it's the turing test view it says well if by all appearances, is conscious then Who are we to say that it's not if.
00:40:59.520 --> 00:41:04.440 Paul King: It X conscious, it can talk about itself and reflect on what it's like to be a computer.
00:41:05.250 --> 00:41:09.390 Paul King: How it's you know it feels different than what it sees about human beings.
00:41:09.810 --> 00:41:21.270 Paul King: We feel like it has self awareness and we can understand and relate to it and even has emotions, then what would it mean to say that it's not conscious maybe if it's sufficiently similar to consciousness and that's the same as being conscious.
00:41:22.950 --> 00:41:24.780 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: doctor Rowshanak, do you agree or.
00:41:24.780 --> 00:41:39.210 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: disagree, well, I mean, I think, Paul is quite brilliant and often enjoyed listening to what he says, I would say that, yes, it is an emergent property if you can create this complex system that.
00:41:40.260 --> 00:41:44.040 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: You know you have order parameters and control parameters and maybe you can get this.
00:41:47.400 --> 00:41:48.930 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: consciousness as.
00:41:49.950 --> 00:41:56.190 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: As an emergent property of the system we have this in science and physics and biology, where you have this.
00:41:56.580 --> 00:42:04.950 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: spontaneous self Assembly and then this merging properties that come out of the systems, so if that would be easy enough to create.
00:42:05.700 --> 00:42:15.000 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: And then that definition, which is an emergence that if you call that consciousness, yes, we could create conscious Ai.
00:42:15.600 --> 00:42:30.450 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Now there's a lot of sexy around Ai but I remember when I was graduating which was like 100 years ago, back then, we were saying oh my God, he is going to take over the world, and here I am you know i'm 95 and respect they're still saying the same thing you know.
00:42:31.860 --> 00:42:35.160 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: I just got real quiet about Ai now it's you know back on the scene again.
00:42:35.520 --> 00:42:36.990 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: So i'm a little bit like.
00:42:37.620 --> 00:42:49.080 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: So again, it goes back to how do you define it, what is it composed up where does it come from where does it go to you know so until you can get this sort of feel for, but the differences.
00:42:49.530 --> 00:42:57.060 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Again, when you talk about a phenomena logically this qualia you know you read as a wavelength, but how do I see read.
00:42:57.750 --> 00:42:58.200 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: You know.
00:42:58.770 --> 00:43:15.090 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Can this Ai feel you know the joy of watching a child smile or sunset you know how does it process that information what comes up in and out of it as you were asking question before, is it an expression are we receiving in.
00:43:15.780 --> 00:43:33.420 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Right right yeah and then I see there's so many like science fiction TV shows, now that are all and movies and stuff that are all about Well now, if you can create that kind of awareness and then you put it into a robotic body that kind of looks like a human.
00:43:33.780 --> 00:43:38.250 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Like, what are the implications for us as human beings do we become.
00:43:39.510 --> 00:43:58.890 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Something irrelevant, is that, like the next evolutionary step that then supersedes us the way we've sort of superseded our you know ancestors from you know 400 500,000 years ago that and and have dominated sort of the world.
00:43:59.130 --> 00:44:00.540 Paul King: So this is just the idea.
00:44:02.130 --> 00:44:08.640 Paul King: yeah, this is the idea of the singularity if machines keep getting smarter at some point there's going to be a machine that's smarter than people.
00:44:09.060 --> 00:44:20.730 Paul King: And it's going to divide it's going to take over designing the smart machines that will then get even smarter still and it'll be an accelerating curve of intelligence and will this be wondering what happened, out of the world change yeah.
00:44:21.060 --> 00:44:27.180 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: I mean, but there's already a question about are we living in a simulation anyway, so it goes back to my question or yeah right.
00:44:27.510 --> 00:44:29.250 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: yeah so there's first of all bad.
00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:40.080 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: And I think this really brings up the idea that you know going back again to duality and non duality and in our ego and consciousness being something that's outside of ego in mind.
00:44:40.680 --> 00:44:55.020 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: You know, we are so ECO it and saying what would supersede us what if relevant, do you see how this becomes very interesting when you're talking about consciousness as consciousness itself is supposed to be outside of ego in life and.
00:44:55.530 --> 00:44:58.200 Paul King: I think we got The thing is, I think that humans will always be on top.
00:44:58.500 --> 00:44:58.770 yeah.
00:45:01.260 --> 00:45:05.580 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: I got a couple of questions on the Facebook live, but we got to take, believe it or not, our last break.
00:45:06.390 --> 00:45:10.770 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: So when we come back i'm going to ask you, these questions and then I really want to get down to sort of.
00:45:11.310 --> 00:45:19.800 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Today, like what's happening now, and how is the kind of research into these things affecting day to day life in today's world okay.
00:45:20.550 --> 00:45:34.410 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: So everybody, please stay tuned you're listening to the conscious consultant our awakening humanity, we do this every Thursday 12 noon to 1pm Eastern time filled with fascinating conversations like today, and we will be right back after these messages.
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00:47:38.670 --> 00:47:49.770 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: and welcome back to the conscious consultant our awakening humanity, so I got a couple of questions here on the Facebook live of the first one i'll direct to you, Dr ocean, and the second one, to you, Paul So the first one is.
00:47:50.730 --> 00:47:58.590 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Do you believe that neurology sensory relates to spiritual sensitive or sensitivities and then maybe we'll say more like.
00:47:59.130 --> 00:48:10.950 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Do to sort of these extra sensory capabilities are these something that generated by the brain, or is it something that kind of more because we're sensitive we feeling it.
00:48:12.240 --> 00:48:12.480 gets.
00:48:13.830 --> 00:48:14.400 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Time.
00:48:14.790 --> 00:48:15.240 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Do you get it.
00:48:16.170 --> 00:48:26.160 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: I think, so I mean we have the five senses and these get processing brain right and so literally by definition extrasensory.
00:48:26.640 --> 00:48:32.130 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: perception, you know that's something that you if you talk about something like Claire sentience clairvoyance right.
00:48:32.970 --> 00:48:41.550 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: These are you're receiving this and you're not receiving it through any of your senses right so that kind of answers that question.
00:48:41.970 --> 00:48:49.530 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: sort of in a minute and then there's this idea of five D and how we have what is outside of our five senses.
00:48:50.370 --> 00:49:02.790 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: and understanding and connecting and tapping into that essence, so I think those two both would would say that of course we don't know and you can't know if.
00:49:03.270 --> 00:49:14.730 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: You know we're still learning so much about about the brain, we know a lot but it's still very little and it's continuously evolving, so it is entirely possible that.
00:49:15.330 --> 00:49:30.090 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: You know, like when you know we discovered mirror neurons you know or anything else um That was something extremely novel and unexpected So how can we know we may yet discover that we have some sort of receptor or.
00:49:32.070 --> 00:49:40.560 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: possibility for process bias, as of now by sort of the definition get would not seem to be the case.
00:49:41.430 --> 00:49:52.500 Paul King: And I would add that it's been very difficult to reproduce ESP effects in controlled lab environment, so it remains something that's pretty speculative i'd say, from a scientific point gotcha.
00:49:52.710 --> 00:49:56.010 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: There is science, that is supporting remote viewing right.
00:49:57.390 --> 00:50:03.450 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: yeah yeah um Okay, we need to I mean I could talk about this stuff with you guys for hours.
00:50:03.450 --> 00:50:03.570 and
00:50:04.740 --> 00:50:19.080 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: The second question, Paul directed to you is can something be conscious without a soul, or a heart or i'll just say can something is truly be conscious if if it doesn't have an emotional quality if there's not something more than just programs running.
00:50:20.250 --> 00:50:28.890 Paul King: I mean, I think we relate more to consciousness that has a soul, or a heart, I mean we could ask what it means to have a soul.
00:50:29.910 --> 00:50:42.330 Paul King: But certainly that emotional connection seems really important, but you know, there are people you know you could say, people who are described as kind of asked for agree who don't seem to have as much of an emotional connection we wouldn't say they're not conscious.
00:50:42.690 --> 00:50:45.780 Paul King: So the emotional connection is nice to have.
00:50:47.040 --> 00:50:54.420 Paul King: I guess scientists would say that consciousness is just the result of how the neurons are communicating with each other and that.
00:50:56.400 --> 00:51:09.450 Paul King: You know the soul is something that we sort of used to explain to ourselves, but then you know people coming from a spiritual tradition would say the soul is primary and the brain is just a vessel holding this old, so I guess hard to say.
00:51:10.380 --> 00:51:23.520 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: yeah so it's it's I guess up to you anyone's opinion of it so so let's talk about sort of this this what's been happening and how sophisticated we've gotten with our programming the artificial intelligence.
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:34.830 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: And, and how it's affecting today's society and into normal day to day life I have a sneaking suspicion that most people don't realize that.
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:53.910 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: There is some very sophisticated programming that's going into all kinds of things from advertising to design to all kinds of stuff Paul, how are we seeing this stuff and what is really the implication for what's going on for humanity today.
00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:59.010 Paul King: yeah well you raise a good point and I think the thing to keep in mind is that.
00:51:59.580 --> 00:52:07.230 Paul King: When you talk about online let's say you're looking at you know, Google search results or average ads are being shown to you or you're on Facebook.
00:52:07.740 --> 00:52:16.050 Paul King: Everything that you're seeing is being decided by an algorithm and those algorithms are all powered by Ai they're all looking at all the things that you could be shown.
00:52:16.680 --> 00:52:22.590 Paul King: You know, Google search results there's you know billions of pages out there and you're only going to see 10 so which are those 10.
00:52:23.520 --> 00:52:31.590 Paul King: that's all being decided by Ai and in the case of ads the ads are being selected based on what the computer thinks you're likely to click on and engage with.
00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:38.250 Paul King: Based on studying what everyone else does and trying to figure out how you fit into what everyone else is doing.
00:52:38.700 --> 00:52:47.850 Paul King: and using that to predict your behavior so yeah is deciding what we see, you could say, and you know, maybe that's a good thing, because the Ai is trying to show us what we want.
00:52:48.390 --> 00:53:01.320 Paul King: Or maybe it's a bad thing, because it's just going to show us what someone else wants us to see and what we're going to you know it's going to sort of invite us to buy stuff that we don't really need because it knows it can, and someone is willing to pay for that.
00:53:02.640 --> 00:53:06.870 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Right so Dr roshan act Is this something we should embrace or something to worry about.
00:53:07.890 --> 00:53:14.940 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: So I think it's a bit worrisome To be honest, for multiple reasons number one we already know that Ai is highly flawed at that at the moment.
00:53:15.630 --> 00:53:22.830 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: With respect to things like facial recognition, you know even interviews for jobs, you know it can't read humans.
00:53:23.490 --> 00:53:32.880 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: properly and that's the that's the problem we're facing with respect to that so when law enforcement uses it when companies use it.
00:53:33.450 --> 00:53:42.630 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: These kinds of things are problematic when it comes to confirmation bias, you know the algorithm is going to show you you're living in an ECHO Chamber it's going to show you what do you really want to know you're not going to have the opportunity.
00:53:43.170 --> 00:53:52.050 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: You know, assuming that we are sort of siloed in our our social circles and then what we get we received through Facebook, or we received through.
00:53:52.470 --> 00:53:58.140 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: The searches, based on what we've already looked at, then we just become really.
00:53:58.770 --> 00:54:08.520 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Really skewed in one direction there's less of an opportunity, unless we're trying to actively get into something else, like I have multiple devices multiple computers multiple phones.
00:54:08.820 --> 00:54:20.040 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: I use them differently, this is how I, you know how I sort of try to overcome that, so I think there's a real danger at the moment with that and we don't have any as positive, we don't have any control over that.
00:54:21.540 --> 00:54:23.940 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: And there is a lot of neuromarketing being used.
00:54:24.090 --> 00:54:25.050 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: So yeah.
00:54:26.550 --> 00:54:42.240 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: So so Paul like rushing Eric mentioned like having multiple devices and using them differently, do you have any suggestions of what can people do to be more conscious or more aware of sort of the implications of this artificial programs that are like showing us all kinds of things.
00:54:43.770 --> 00:54:52.080 Paul King: Well, I think one thing is just to realize that the things you're seeing are being selected for you and to make a point of having more choice in that.
00:54:52.920 --> 00:55:00.960 Paul King: You know, seek out your content, I think the real risk is notifications all those notifications are trying to draw your attention to things and I think turning notifications off.
00:55:01.320 --> 00:55:11.700 Paul King: and creating a way where you're deciding what you're seeing and not just following whatever the devices is a way of getting control of your own attention and control of your own you know destiny.
00:55:12.270 --> 00:55:24.210 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: yeah I I have, I have to turn like almost all the notifications off on my phone because i'm connected to so many people I would never get anything done if I left to just notifications on to turn them all off.
00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:32.970 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: I am so sorry and we're almost at the end of the show I literally I love our conversation I could talk with you guys for hours.
00:55:33.720 --> 00:55:45.150 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: But before we go just Dr roshan act if you have would like to let people know about, maybe your website or your clubhouse channel like How can people you know follow you learn more about you.
00:55:46.020 --> 00:55:54.390 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: So I have a website that's under construction, at the moment, but there are some information on it and it's access to the path.com so access to.
00:55:54.840 --> 00:56:05.430 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: path one word calm and you've dropped an email in there, you can connect with me that way and learn a little bit more about me also I am on clubhouse.
00:56:06.150 --> 00:56:17.700 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: With my full name, but my handle is at access to that and also on instagram and linkedin access to the power so and I didn't have a Twitter account but I changed my phone number, and so they blocked me so.
00:56:19.590 --> 00:56:21.330 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: It can help me here I am.
00:56:22.200 --> 00:56:23.640 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: OK cool how about you, Paul.
00:56:24.450 --> 00:56:34.590 Paul King: yeah so I can be found on my website, which is peaking.org and I do host this clubhouse series called neuroscience Ai and consciousness, which we found a clubhouse.
00:56:35.040 --> 00:56:43.500 Paul King: We host these conversations with researchers and on for a lots of answers all your questions about how the brain works and what's known in neuroscience.
00:56:46.650 --> 00:56:47.160 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: What was that.
00:56:47.640 --> 00:56:49.410 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: I said I show up there sometimes do.
00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:57.810 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: Yes, yes, well listen, thank you, Paul, thank you, Dr ocean X so much for coming on the show today really appreciate it, especially since.
00:56:58.080 --> 00:57:05.850 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: My regular guests just disappeared on me, and so you guys filled in at the last minute, but what an awesome show this has been Thank you so much.
00:57:06.390 --> 00:57:15.930 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: And thank you my loyal listeners for tuning in, as always, especially with all the questions on Facebook Thank you so much, and if you missed any part of today's show remember you can catch.
00:57:16.410 --> 00:57:26.610 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: The recording on all of the podcasting platforms apple stitcher spotify Pandora I heart radio we're all over the place, and of course on talk radio dot nyc.
00:57:27.510 --> 00:57:37.500 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: and make sure you tune in later today with at 5pm Eastern time with frank Harrison and the show frank about health, followed by Johnny tsunami and his show planet pocket low low.
00:57:38.310 --> 00:57:43.110 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: We will be back next week i've got a wonderful guest Sandra bar pitchman.
00:57:43.710 --> 00:57:58.230 Sam Liebowitz, The Conscious Consultant: joining me next week I think you'll really enjoy that conversation a very different conversation because she's a performance artist and into consciousness of a different story, so thank you all for tuning in we will talk to you next week.
00:57:58.890 --> 00:57:59.820 Dr. Rowshanak Hashemiyoon: Thank you, Sam Thank you.
00:58:01.830 --> 00:58:03.030 Paul King: Thanks yeah this is fun.